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A massive electoral gamble

Nick Robinson | 12:48 UK time, Tuesday, 6 October 2009

Vote for us and we'll delay your pension. Vote for us and we'll cut your tax credits. Vote for us and, if you work in the public sector, we'll freeze your pay - and if you work in Whitehall, we might cut your job.

George OsborneThis was no ordinary electioneering speech by George Osborne.

This is, of course, no ordinary time.

The Tories' calculated gamble is that they will be rewarded for being open, up-front and honest about the pain that lies ahead. What's more, they have tried to signal that - in the phrase the shadow chancellor used again and again - "we are all in this together".

Thus, the right will not get its 50p tax rate cut while others will see their pay frozen. Thus, no-one on less than £18,000 will have their pay frozen, and baby bonds and child tax credits will still be paid to the poorest.

In the past, politicians have learned to their cost that honesty is not always the best policy. Voters who applaud talk of tough choices tend to howl when those choices hurt them.

The Tories today took a massive electoral gamble.

They know that John Smith's shadow budget of 1992 was applauded for being honest about the tax rises needed to pay for Labour's spending promises. They know that New Labour blamed him and it for losing them the election. They hope that they will prove that history does not have to repeat itself.

Comments

Page 1 of 5

  • Comment number 1.

    "Vote for us and we'll cut your tax credits..." Errr only if your earning over £50K/pa, in which case I doubt that your children will be left starving as a result of that!

  • Comment number 2.

    Nick..just for once,can you give your views on the following question, please?

    What was better?...The Government last week announcing more expenditure that we can't afford...

    ..Or,Osborne,at least being honest, and telling the public how it really is..

    Painful,but necessary.

  • Comment number 3.

    "Vote for us and we'll delay your pension. Vote for us and we'll cut your tax credits. Vote for us and, if you work in the public sector, we'll freeze your pay - and if you work in Whitehall, we might cut your job."

    That's the conservatives for you.

  • Comment number 4.

    The only comparison with John Smith is the policy setting

    Against this current Government who are making up policy on the hoof and don't announce things at their own conference is somewhat bizarre

    It was the Tories who set the "reduction" agenda, and it looks like they are once more leading the government...until I suppose Mandy appears on our screens and says he's really a Tory

  • Comment number 5.

    3 derekbarker

    "That's the Conservatives for you"

    Quite so. Do you have a problem with tax credits being cut for people on over £50k?

  • Comment number 6.

    Opposition parties don't win elections, Governments lose them.

  • Comment number 7.

    3

    Sane people would realise that is also going to be Labour.

    They are just spinning, lying and deceiving.

    Hoping that they can trick enough simple minded people into voting for them.

  • Comment number 8.

    "derekbarker wrote:
    "Vote for us and we'll delay your pension. Vote for us and we'll cut your tax credits. Vote for us and, if you work in the public sector, we'll freeze your pay - and if you work in Whitehall, we might cut your job."

    That's the conservatives for you."

    Better than the Labour approach "Vote for us and your grandchildren will still be paying for your mistake"

    The incoming government will be left a debt mountain higher than anything previously seen in this country. People who understand maths will realise that spending will have to be reduced to cover that.

    So far it seems to be fairly sensible - the majority of people in the private sector who realise they are unlikely to get pay rises will appreciate that the public sector are also taking a hit. The majority of people will not be effected by the increase in the pension age being pushed forward (for most of us we would suffer under Labour plans anyway!) and if the numbers are correct it will save billions and shouldn't effect services.

    Hopefully, voters will realise that medicine needs to be taken.

    And we all know that Labour will be making cuts but they just won't give details.

  • Comment number 9.

    George Osborne's main problem isn't so much what he says, but the way he says it. I suspect his hectoring, public school prefect delivery is a bit of a Tory vote loser. Caledonian Comment

  • Comment number 10.

    I'd rather let someone new in with realistic views (even if he does look about 15) than trust the prime chancellor any longer. Lets not forget they were all about more spending.

    Be interesting to see how this affects the casual voter electorate. I think that most people are open to the message that it's about time we the people started to stand up and be ready to work for the country as opposed to sponging from it.

    Nick, not even a mention of your patronising 'Team Cameron' in this piece? Surely some mistake.

    Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with any political party, I vote for who I believe is the best candidate. I infer no direction to other voters

  • Comment number 11.

    Those illiterate posters on HYS stating that this shows what the Conservatives r like should ask themselves - do u REALLY want another 5 years of Clown and Co??? - if so vote for them, and REALLY reap the consequences. Anyone in UK politics who tells it as it is - in this case the UK is broke - is in for it by people who want everything and give nothing. Liebour have wrecked UK in just 12 years - someone has to repair it, and I back the Tories ahead of any other party to do just that. I can not listen to any more Liebour lies.

  • Comment number 12.

    I'm sure I can recall that when the Government announced policies on inheritance tax and non-doms that were not at all the same as Conservative proposals they were lambasted for plagiarism. So why is there no comment on Osborne and Cameron announcing 'new' policies that are not dissimilar from those already being implemented by the Government?

  • Comment number 13.

    derekbarker,

    I think the people might find honesty refreshing.

  • Comment number 14.

    3. At 1:02pm on 06 Oct 2009, derekbarker

    "Vote for us and we'll screw your pension. Vote for us and we'll make your tax credits so complicated you won't realise you're being screwed. Vote for us and, if you work in the public sector, we'll increase your pay right up until your job is cut - and if you work in Whitehall, well, you'll be safe.

    That's labour for you.


    When you spin something it can go in one of two directions...

  • Comment number 15.

    Honest Tory?
    Pull the other one

  • Comment number 16.

    Its probably a good move. The basic agenda of Labour and Tory is the same so getting a bit of an edge by playing the honesty card may benefit them.

  • Comment number 17.

    Bit of a dangerously over-generalised opening paragraph that Nick.

  • Comment number 18.

    So the tories continue their adoption of Daily Mail bugbears as policy.

    But what will they do when they fimd out that all britains problems are not caused by 'feral yooves''the EU' 'professional unemployed', 'fatcats' public sector workers' and 'overpaid council non-jobs'..

    Nevermind, by the time the truth comes out they'll have been elected on an overwhelming wave of populism.

  • Comment number 19.

    #5 Sherry!

    Your still not listening right JR, The fledgling would-be wants to cut sure start and tax credit per se.

  • Comment number 20.

    John Smith was a great politician who, like Gaitskill, had his life cruelly cut short as he was ready to grasp the prize. Both had the trust of the electorate,would have been more than competent Prime Ministers. Instead of Smith, we were offered Kinnock. THAT is why Labour lost in '92

  • Comment number 21.

    @ 1. At 12:59pm on 06 Oct 2009, JPSLotus79 wrote:
    "Vote for us and we'll cut your tax credits..." Errr only if your earning over £50K/pa, in which case I doubt that your children will be left starving as a result of that!


    The statement should be why are people earning over £50k/ pa claiming for tax credits under the current government (Even though they have a right to do so). What's the current National debt ? £800b or something, lets get real here money doesn't grow on trees, everyone has to pay for the mistakes of the Bankers and the Labour Party.

  • Comment number 22.

    I dislike Osborne, and don't trust him as far as I could throw him. However I do have respect for appearing to say the truth. Its a sad indictment of our present government.

  • Comment number 23.

    3. At 1:02pm on 06 Oct 2009, derekbarker wrote:
    "Vote for us and we'll delay your pension. Vote for us and we'll cut your tax credits. Vote for us and, if you work in the public sector, we'll freeze your pay - and if you work in Whitehall, we might cut your job."

    That's the conservatives for you.

    ===================================================

    Of course labour will continue to pay these but you'll have to collect your monopoly money in a wheelbarrow before the ink dries.

  • Comment number 24.

    I'd rather have honesty any day. The Labour fools are kidding themselves if they think things will be better under another Labour Government. Look at the gutless announcement from the Chancellor today. He didn't have the courage to announce this policy at the Labour conference. We are in for a period of pain regardless who is in power. I'd prefer to have the pain shared equally and the burden not all placed on the private sector who have so far borne the brunt of this recession. Yes to tax rises, yes to public sector cuts and yet to limits on tax credits. That way we all share the burden.

  • Comment number 25.

    Nick,

    I know you believe you are "impartial" but the subconcious manner in which your outpourings are constructed leave the reader in no doubt that you are in the Labour corner.

    I think it is possibly because you have been on too many jollies abroad on the Prime Ministers jet in close proximity to our unmandated & increasingly out of control Prime Minister.

    And when the Tories talk about public sector cuts that they do not leave the BBC out of the cutting.

    We simply cannot afford £3 billion+ a year for a national broadcaster to build a global empire at the cost of private sector & tax paying news organisations.

  • Comment number 26.

    brilliant message from the tories

    apparently any public sector worker earning $18000 p/a or more is currently overpaid.

    thats actally less than the natinal average.

    still should please the only demographic they seem to care about, daily mail readers.

  • Comment number 27.

    Nick

    what your saying is it’s a risk telling the British people the truth.
    This explains why the Liebour Government have spun themselves into the ground and are treated with derision.
    Another proof of their dishonesty has come to light with Brown being caught out playing politics with our service people’s lives, ask General Dannet. This after the treasury document proving the Brown has been lying from the dispatch box.
    I also think that the move by Darling last night coming out with policy change that affect many people lives to try and but in on the Tory conference is evidence that people don't matter to this Government they are all expendable in ministers desperation to hang on to their ministerial perks.
    So the judgment for the British people is who do you trust?
    A party that is trying its best to lay out before the electorate the scope of the damage done and how to fix it?
    Or
    A party that uses everyone as pawns in a desperate attempt to cling on to power?
    The Liebour government have now got themselves into a position that everyone knows is a danger of starting to lie. Once you start lying you are forced to continue with it when everyone can see that you are tying yourself in knots to maintain the lie.
    We need change. We need the truth. We need to see the back of this idiotic desperate clapped out Government. And I want see that someone is going to sort out the mess so my children and their children have some sort of future.

  • Comment number 28.


    Best get this in quick before the blog closes.

    Nick you say:

    Thus, the right will not get its 50p tax rate cut while others will see their pay frozen. Thus, no-one on less than £18,000 will have their pay frozen, and baby bonds and child tax credits will still be paid to the poorest.


    My, my the Tories are starting a left turn. At least now we can see some clear water between them and NuLabour.


    #36 derekbarker (last blog)

    By the way Delboy why have those NuLabour numpties just doubled the amount you can save with an ISA, if it creates unemployment.

    You are really a neep!

  • Comment number 29.

    I dread to think what David Chameleon and George Osborne will do if they get hold of the economy, Brown may not be pretty but he did the business. Cameron will be much more concerned with which tie to wear at the press conference

  • Comment number 30.

    For ONCE can you please give an unbiased view.

  • Comment number 31.

    3. At 1:02pm on 06 Oct 2009, derekbarker wrote:
    "Vote for us and we'll delay your pension. Vote for us and we'll cut your tax credits. Vote for us and, if you work in the public sector, we'll freeze your pay - and if you work in Whitehall, we might cut your job."

    That's the conservatives for you.
    ****************************
    I take it you have a problem with honesty then!!

  • Comment number 32.

    1. At 12:59pm on 06 Oct 2009, JPSLotus79 wrote:
    "Vote for us and we'll cut your tax credits..." Errr only if your earning over £50K/pa, in which case I doubt that your children will be left starving as a result of that!

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    I was unaware that you could get any tax credits if you earn over £50,000 since this is the maximum ceiling.
    Had mine reduced to zero last year, so I don’t know what Osborne is talking about?

    As for the rest of it; Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas do they?
    Perhaps we might see Gordon back in number 10 after all.

    Keep um coming Ozzy; it will be good to see the smiles wiped off some bloggers faces when they realise it’s their turn to be pinched.

  • Comment number 33.

    3#

    Derek, wind your neck in, Labour will do the same to you anyway. Stop wasting bandwidth.

  • Comment number 34.

    Can I ask you again, Nick, what is Charlie Falconer doing there at the conference?

  • Comment number 35.

    "probablynogod wrote:
    I'm sure I can recall that when the Government announced policies on inheritance tax and non-doms that were not at all the same as Conservative proposals they were lambasted for plagiarism. So why is there no comment on Osborne and Cameron announcing 'new' policies that are not dissimilar from those already being implemented by the Government?"

    Ummm didn't Nick write a blog about it? Which still managed to end up full of people using it to point out how evil the Tories are and how soft and fluffy Labour were.

  • Comment number 36.

    we don't get too much crime here in Hampstead (North London) but a couple of months back I did have an intruder in the house - quite a frightening chap too - middle of the afternoon it was

    no, I didn't like the look of him one bit ... especially when he started talking to me:

    "Hello there, scared little home owner," he said. "I'm now going to steal your HiFi, your espresso machine and your entire collection of Mao figurines, and then on my way out I'm going to make a right old mess on your carpet."

    "Thank you for your honesty," I said, trembling and not really meaning it

    stuck in my mind, that, so excuse me (won't you?) if I don't join in the applause for "Honest George"

    (happy ending, btw, because before he could do anything, my Mum came back from the shops and scared him away)

  • Comment number 37.

    #31 Zydol (ouch)

    Look! please dont spill any-more of your young conservative communism on us.

    Your shadow "PREFECT" blew it.

  • Comment number 38.

    #21 "The statement should be why are people earning over £50k/ pa claiming for tax credits under the current government "

    So as to make the middle classes think that they have a stake in the survival of the system!

  • Comment number 39.

    "3. At 1:02pm on 06 Oct 2009, derekbarker wrote:
    "Vote for us and we'll delay your pension. Vote for us and we'll cut your tax credits. Vote for us and, if you work in the public sector, we'll freeze your pay - and if you work in Whitehall, we might cut your job."

    That's the conservatives for you."

    Yes Labour are much better. Vote for us and we'll spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and spend and
    and never have to put up taxes or worry where the money comes from.










  • Comment number 40.

    The issue that this raises is the extent to which the majority of British people properly understand the severity of the UK's financial crisis.

    We have a massive structural public sector deficit/debt problem. The goose that was laying the golden egg - the banking and financial services sector - has been hung by its own petard = a collapse in tax revenues. The housing bubble has burst. The global economy is staggering along with absolutely no certainty that it will lift in the short- or even medium-term. If/when it does, the oil price will soar once again (we've all but run out of the stuff that's cheap to extract and refine) and, hey ho, just watch us spiral back down the economic flume. To all intents and purposes, thanks to Gordon Brown believing his own fantasy about "no-more-boom-n-bust", the UK is now indeed going bust. It seems to me that not enough people have yet grasped this prospect.

    There appears to be a significant chunk of our population which is oblivious to even the most basic awareness and understanding of the dire state of our economy, exacerbated by the parlous global situation.

    My fear is that unless/until we're in some sort of crisis that directly affects the majority of people (rather than peering at a crisis which may or may not be just around the corner), there is a risk that a critical mass of the population will indeed be scared off by the Tories' announcements.

    If I'm right, and the British people vote the Labour Party back into power again, that's the time to head for Canada or somewhere similar. If you can't make Canada, head for the hills: the socio-economic consequences of another 5 years of Gordon Brown's very own brand of deceitful Marxism don't really bear thinking about.

    Indeed, the next 5 - 10 years are going to bad enough whichever party gains power; believe me.

  • Comment number 41.

    Of course the Conservative budget deficit plans will feed into Labour's "nasty party" narrative, of which I'm sure there will be many examples on this blog.

    We know, though, that Labour say they will cut the deficit by half within 4 years, but we know little of their plans. Possibly we will know more by the time of the Pre-Budget Report (buried in the detail somewhere).

    Being in my 50s I'm directly affected by the delay in paying the state pension (I know younger people are too, but the loss is further away). So I've lost approx £100 x 52 weeks = %5000.

    However, I understand the current deficit is unsustainable and that this is the price to be paid for Labour's economic mismanagement.

    This is only the beginning of the agony inflicted by Labour on the British people.

  • Comment number 42.

    Where is the gamble? I would say more playing to the daily mail readers prejudice. God what a boring speech, wouldn't vote for him as golf club treasurer let alone chancellor.Where are the so called heavy hitters in the tory party? all we see at present is limp wristed wannabes!

  • Comment number 43.

    I see DB is back

    I would like to ask what he would think of a parent that went on a massive spending spree and exhausted its own earnings for his life time.
    Then carried on and spent more money but committed his children to pay for it.
    Then went further and spent even more and bound his unborn grandchildren to pay it off.

    All for a party that he wants to have now.

    Any person with any decency would view that person with complete and utter contempt.

    The name of this person?

    One Moron Brown.

    As Mandy said he has a Debt addiction.

    Remember this is what Labour governments have always done they have destroyed the economy every time they have had power.
    The Tories are going to have to clean up the mess Labour have created yet again so the question for Labour supporters is why don’t they learn why can’t they understand the simple truth you can’t spend more than you earning forever?

  • Comment number 44.

    Is it really such a gamble Nick ?

    With a £175billion deficit big cuts are inevitable. Without them we could lose our triple A credit rating, there will be a sterling crash and the country would go bankrupt

    In short we do it or the markets force us to do it

    Do you really think that the people of the UK are really so stupid as not to be able to see this?


    it is a sad comment on politics to day that stating the obvious truth to the electorate is regarded as a sign of courage clearly they all think we are utterly stupid

  • Comment number 45.

    As always, the wealthy will carry on being wealthy and the poor will feel some pain. The public sector will take an unfair share of that pain as this was actually all down to the banks, they all appear now to be getting better, but just not giving us our money back yet, Politicians should bet telling them to start pumping as much back in the treasury as they had received, then let's see if we need to decimate public services. Tories are talking about real guts to tell us 'how it is', but GB took some guts to take the lead in saving this flawed capitalist banking system with the use of Keynesian intervention, without which, we'd all be fighting for bread and if the whole system had collapsed, it would have been very ugly. But then, we wouldn't be blaming the public servants, it would probably be the eastern europeans and Muslims to blame this time, as long as it wasn't the tories. Cameron's plans for the unemployed are just the New Deal that's already there, yeah, let's kick the sick (been done before, being done now); Osbourne, wake me up when my overdraft clears.

  • Comment number 46.

    #3, derekbarker wrote:
    "Vote for us and we'll delay your pension. Vote for us and we'll cut your tax credits. Vote for us and, if you work in the public sector, we'll freeze your pay - and if you work in Whitehall, we might cut your job."
    That's the conservatives for you.

    Derek,
    People voted for Blair/Brown.
    - Brown immediately hammered private pension schemes, so very few now offer final salary pensions.

    - Brown introduced tax-credits so badly that people were paid - then chased for repayment. Maybe if it were done properly (reducing the cost of operations), there would be more mnney available.

    - If you work in public sector, you'll get your pay frozen. According to Darling and Osborne. Tough. If you work in private companies you might by now have lost the job, seen pay cuts, maybe working hour restrictions.

    - Sad to say, many jobs just do not warrant existing within Whitehall. Being honest, which would you prefer to fund... a bloke or gal sitting in an expensive chair in a vastly costly Ministry of Defence building, or a front line soldier?

    That's the type of choice EVERY party is having to face.

    Frankly, I'd take an axe to Special Advisers, reduce pay for management in civil service, QANGOs any public body (including local government). Can't see how that harms "front line folks".

  • Comment number 47.

    To no. 1 and others - the child tax credit is not paid based on indvidual income, but based on family income. So it will be cut not just for those individual parents earning £50K (ie about twice the average income), but for FAMILIES earning above £50K. This is perfectly clear from the news story - "Tax credits for families earning more than £50,000 a year would be ended..."

    So if both parents are earning the average wage, or in any case if their combined income amounts to the average wage each (ie one parent earns £20K, the other parent earns £30K), their child tax credits will be cut - for some this will amount to hundreds of pounds a year. Obviously far more people will be affected by this than just those individual parents earning £50K.

  • Comment number 48.

    16 C6nservative Front benchers are millionaire - Andrew Neil.

    The Tories promise tax cuts for the wealthy.

    The Tories maitain their policy on inheritance tax increasing wealth for millionares.

    +

    Public sector pay freezes.

    Pay cuts across the board.

    25% reduction in disabled persons income


    =

    Tory recovery policy

    Winners: the rich
    Losers: the poor or disabled persons

    Cause of the recession = wealthy tories

  • Comment number 49.

    Maybe this is the most positive spin they can put on it? and maybe it will actually be much worse, who knows? lets all repeat the mantra "We are all in this Together","We are all in this together",... although Some of us will be less "in this together" than others In my view.

  • Comment number 50.


    Well Nick. Last week we had a wish list, this week we have an action list.

    Yep we sure have some clear water!

  • Comment number 51.

    As a 68 year old pensioner who has just returned to work - took me two days to find a job once I started looking - I am trying to make sense out of what is currently being offered by all parties.
    My pension having been twice hit by Gordon (his original raid on funds and then the 10% tax fiasco) this year's Council Tax hike, small as it was, finally caused my outgoings to exceed my income.
    Both parties appear to be saying that they will at some time restore the pension/earnings link,. But I can find no clue as to when and at what point of the income scale will it be made. Not sure what else is being proposed by any of the parties that might benefit me as a pensioner.
    I have therefore been following these blogs hoping to learn from the combined wisdom of those with more savvy than me who contribute to these pages.
    Instead, all I find is party politics at its most feral or facts adapted to whatever opinion the blogger wants to get across.
    Worst of all is the pure party dogma put out by the profesionals who lurk on these forums. I have even found myself responding in an ungentlemanly to their diatribe. (Which is probably the reaction they want anyway)
    There are some sensible posters out there and I relish reading these gems among the rubble. To those I say thank you.

  • Comment number 52.

    #34
    Fubar
    I hear there's a free buffet!

  • Comment number 53.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 54.

    It is no surprise that Nick Robinson cant see any benifit in the Torries trying to be upfront about the hard choices they may make as he has been to close to the spin of new Labour for to long.

  • Comment number 55.

    Nick,

    You seem to forget that it's the private sector who pay for all these things, and that the majority of people work in the private sector rather than the public sector.

    The private sector is funding the bloated public sector pensions/state; the problem is a very simple one:

    The private sector does not physically have enough money available to pay for the bloated public sector as it stands; the current situation is unsustainable and by definition will lead to total national economic bankruptcy if we continue with the labour approach.

    For every public sector worker who gets their pension value lowered, there'll be 5 private sector workers who say "about time; brown raided my private pension; why should I pay for a bloated unrealistic public pension of a public sector worker?"

    The risk, as you put it, is not a risk at all because the vast majority of people who'd be adversely effected by it would be union members, public sector workers, and the unemployed, who would mostly vote labour even if labour promised to drop a nuke on london.

  • Comment number 56.

    "Vote for us and we'll delay your pension.......That's the conservatives for you"

    And didn't Labour [and specifically Brown] destroy a good many people's pensions with the tax on dividends immediately after they gained office?

    And Nick, surely the electoral gamble was from Brown who, at Labour's conference, threw sweeties around and hoped the voters wouldn't realise that they will have to pay for them and that we can't afford them anyway.

  • Comment number 57.

    #46
    There's no need for a conspicuous mind here. The young fledgling didn't throw an honest dice as much as a joker card. His speech was riddled with the flavour of 1978 conservative tripe, in as much as they believe there is no such thing as society and provisional help.

  • Comment number 58.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 59.

    #29 - what planet do you live on? Gordon did the business of ruining the wonderful economy he created and built a massive bubble on housing prices being unchecked and too much money in the economy. We now have the massive bust. You really should stop reading Labour Party propaganda - it's incredibly badly written fiction

  • Comment number 60.

    30#

    Don't hold your breath.

  • Comment number 61.

    "The British nation is unique in this respect. They are the only people who like to be told how bad things are, who like to be told the worst."

    Sir Winston Churchill, Hansard, June 10, 1941

    Now, we shall see which the British people prefer. The Tories harsh truth or Labour lies.

  • Comment number 62.

    Before the financial meltdown Labour were borrowing £35 billion a year. This was down to Gordon Brown, who foolishly thought revenue from the financial institutions would keep on increasing. IT WAS NOT SUSTAINABLE!!!
    It's a bitter pill to swallow but huge cuts have to be made.
    LET'S HAVE SOME TRUTH BROWN, DARLING & MANDLESON!!!!!!

  • Comment number 63.

    Nick, let's be honest here. Your first paragraph is disgraceful and should have been moderated!
    The Conservatives are a political party just as are Labour and there objective is to be in power. Personally there are very few politicians that I like or trust and we all know that there will be more pain whoever is in charge from next spring. We also know that the Conservatives will make many mistakes but this current lot will have had nearly 13 years in power by the time of the next election. I hate what they have done to my country and want someone else to try and fix what they have broken. It will not be either easy or quick but I know Labour cannot do it. Under the Conservatives at least we have a small chance!

  • Comment number 64.

    "taxedintotheground wrote:
    brilliant message from the tories

    apparently any public sector worker earning $18000 p/a or more is currently overpaid.

    thats actally less than the natinal average."

    If the Tories felt there were overpaid wouldn't they have recommended a pay CUT rather than a pay freeze. Many people in the private sector have had to face a pay cut/freeze because companies are trying to cut costs - so why should the public sector expect year on year pay rises?

    And what does the average wage have to do with it? The average wage is just that an average. Someone on the average wage could be overpaid if their pay is higher than the value of their job.

  • Comment number 65.

    15

    I see.

    So it is your contention that Cameron, Osborne and Co are telling unpopular untruths?

    That would certainly be a new approach. Just not sure that anyone is that stupid.

  • Comment number 66.

    Portcullis Gate - u illustrated EXACTLY why Liebour will be kicked out and those posters from Liebour on HYS = barker - saga - etc MUST be from a Liebour office somewhere - not planet Earth obviously!!!!

  • Comment number 67.

    It's that time again, let's all just have a go at the Tories, that's what the BBC is all about in the political debate when Nick, in his position, appears to be slating the Tories for saying something that most of us acknowledge as needing to be done. What does the editor think of this bias that seems to appear quite often?

    Although the real point is, as you say Nick, this is no ordinary time. Under the current government, they already have plans to do the same thing, they're just choosing to keep most of what they say behind closed doors so that they can continue to hide the truths from us that we all need to hear.

    Yes, I'm upset as I'm sure many people are with how things are going to be but under New Labour I accepted years back that my future is in trouble. I expect to be working until I fall over dead under current government objectives so why should it be that different with the Tories in charge. I'd rather have someone talking out about it than having the current Cowards in charge again.

    We are all in this together, in fact it's the one thing New Labour have done in bringing the entire nation together by way of its policies. We are united in Recession and united in our disgust of New Labour.

    Gordon has stated that he's the man for tough choices but does nothing and he's the one in charge (says it all really), whereas the moment we have someone unable to currently do anything being part of the Shadow Cabinet but speaking out about the tough choices the Tories will make is at least a refreshing touch and somehow this is portrayed in a negative way.

    If Brown and Darling were working for me I would have sacked them by now. As the saying goes "All bark but no bite" and that summarises Labour right now, they're all about talking themselves up as the government of responsibility, of the people, of the future, etc. Yeah right, I've never seen so much garbage fall out of someone's mouth upon opening it.

    We need far more openness and honesty on these issues but where Gordon has made promises, we all know what he has in store for the country. The foundations of New Labour are crumbling and the glorious paintwork brought to us by Blair is all falling down to reveal what really lay beneath that wonderful work. No amount of gloss is enough to cover up the problems the people see.

    I want the truth and I want honesty. I doubt any politician will be able to deliver but speaking out and acknowledging an issue is better than denial. New Labour are in denial, they're not just Underdogs, they're old dogs that have been taught too many tricks and just can't seem to operate in any other way.

    I work for the NHS, and if New Labour are all about the services, the people, the Public Sector, about investment, etc. Why am I not voting Labour at the next election?

    A vote for Labour is quite literally a vote for Labour, they're very good at only looking after their own but don't seem that bothered about everyone else.

    #14

    "Vote for us and we'll screw your pension. Vote for us and we'll make your tax credits so complicated you won't realise you're being screwed. Vote for us and, if you work in the public sector, we'll increase your pay right up until your job is cut - and if you work in Whitehall, well, you'll be safe."

    I like that, I could add more to it but I just can't be bothered right now and that summary works nicely. The truth most definitely hurts and that's why Gordon likes to be seen as the Hero, the one who covers up the truth so that people will never find out..........that plan didn't work too well.

  • Comment number 68.

    "beardedshrimper wrote:
    I dread to think what David Chameleon and George Osborne will do if they get hold of the economy, Brown may not be pretty but he did the business. Cameron will be much more concerned with which tie to wear at the press conference"

    Yes, Brown did the business that is why we are in this mess. He did his "business" all over the nations economy. To be fair to the Tories the only way they could do worse is if they decided to go down to a track and put all our money on a near-dead nag.

  • Comment number 69.

    3. At 1:02pm on 06 Oct 2009, derekbarker

    Convenient then, for Mr. Robinson to assist so ably with a context-free one-liner.

    '...they will be rewarded for being open, up-front and honest about the pain that lies ahead."

    Just about to fire an agency who won my aging Mum's business by promising high and delivering... so far... sod all. If I can do more, I will hurt them any way I can for putting their petty job prospects above her best interests. It's cost her a fortune and, ironically, made them nothing whilst costing them dear in reputation.

    It's not supposed to be about 'not being Labour', but in the current climate, and the mood of those around me here at least, I'd say it's less about 'reward' and more about pragmatism.

    Anyone who promises milk, honey + perks and swans off on index-linked into the sunset having conned those who fund them might be well advised to avoid lamp posts near hardware shops.

    But maybe not a view carefully (I am sure) 'selected' for sharing by Sian and Co on BBC Breakfast this morning. Pretty much all from 50 year old folk who were now livid and not voting Conservative.

    I just wonder how many were/are from those who were/are no longer set to enjoy the fruits of a 'someone else will pay; they always have' job and mindset, and those not in uniquely-funded organisations.

    Almost a conflict of interest to go beyond reporting to such commentary to enhance the narrative, one might argue.

  • Comment number 70.

    #3 Del boy
    Just what are you and your spiv mates going to do? tell us it's all OK, and borrow a few 100 billion more whilst the pawnbrokers are still open?

    Do grow up, and add a bit of sense to the debate. Oh, who am I talking to?

  • Comment number 71.

    @notfooledsteve. Dear Steve. From the sound of it you've been fooled for the last 12 years. Don't worry, you've got plenty of company. Staying delusional despite the overwhelming evidence of corruption and incompetence by the incumbent govt,- now THAT'S something to worry about.

  • Comment number 72.

    "47. At 1:52pm on 06 Oct 2009, stevepeers wrote:
    To no. 1 and others - the child tax credit is not paid based on indvidual income, but based on family income. So it will be cut not just for those individual parents earning £50K (ie about twice the average income), but for FAMILIES earning above £50K. This is perfectly clear from the news story - "Tax credits for families earning more than £50,000 a year would be ended..."

    So if both parents are earning the average wage, or in any case if their combined income amounts to the average wage each (ie one parent earns £20K, the other parent earns £30K), their child tax credits will be cut - for some this will amount to hundreds of pounds a year. Obviously far more people will be affected by this than just those individual parents earning £50K"

    But a family where both parents each earn £25,000 are aleady MUCH better off than a family where one parent earns £50k and the other nothing because of personal allowances and higher rate tax. A quick back of the fag-packet calculation puts the 'dual income' family approx £2,600 per year better off, so there is no merit in trying to paint the picture as blacker because it will affect dual income families.

    How can you justify a single man earning £20,000 a year paying part of his taxes to a dual income family on combined £50,000 or indeed any family with £50,000 coming in?

    Well done the Tories. Managing to cut benefits for the BETTER off and still somehow attracting criticism from labour supporters.

  • Comment number 73.

    How about all the hangers on that we the tax payer pay for under the auspices of advisers to ministers etc.

    The civil service are there to advise and are credited with being the best brains in the country worth mega salaries and pensions. If they cant provide unbiased advise and research then sack them.

    Perhaps that is the rub the special advisers are doing labour party work at tax payers expense? Expenses scandal et al and more.

  • Comment number 74.

    37. At 1:42pm on 06 Oct 2009, derekbarker wrote:
    #31 Zydol (ouch)

    Look! please dont spill any-more of your young conservative communism on us.

    Your shadow "PREFECT" blew it.
    ******************************************

    Au Contraire Derek. My vote is up for grabs. What I am looking for is someone to convince me, in a grown up way, that I should vote for them.
    At the moment all I read, with some exceptions, is over the top shouted criticism of 'the other party' but few good reasons why I should support whichever mob the shouter alleges to represent.

  • Comment number 75.

    With the propect of "New" Clowns appearing to take charge of the U.K. in the form of the Conservative Party, we have to address 2 Issues.
    Progress, and Timeing.

    Firstly, will the measures announced by the Conservatives work to reduce Unemployment in the short to medium Term, given that George Osbourne has said that he will be making Cuts of One-Third across all Whitehall Departments.

    Now if you are today Working in any of these Whitehall Departments will you. [1]. Take Early Retirement, Or: [2]. Hope that your Name is not chosen for the Chop, with perhaps a reduced Private Pension? And indeed how will making YOU Unemployed help to reduce Unemployment?

    With the statement of the State Retirement Age rising to 66 Years from 65 by 2016, this of course may effect everybody, and in doing so will ensure that once again our Younger Generation will be Unemployable for longer, for while expecting everyone to stay on in Employment until 66 will mean that any shortage of Job's available can only be fewer for all at any given time, and further also add into this mix, the fact that under New Laws everyone will have a Legal Right to stay on in Employment beyond State Retirement Age.

    Now, hands up, how many of you do a manual labouring Job, and if you do how many of you are a Fit [ and I mean Fit ], 65 Year old in a heavy duty Job such as Hod-Carrying on a Building Site who can still match the output of a 20 something Year Old, and Millionaires George and David want this already 65 Year Old to toll on another Year until he reaches 66 Years of Age.

    For if this is Progess, and Timing then how many of the People who write these Blog's will put their Names down to take on this task if are made Unemployed, and sent to do such a Job if THEY, and by they I mean you are at anytime now before you reach 66 are made Unemployed.

    My guess would be that most People won't last a Day never mind a Year Hod-Carrying, for it well known in ALL Sector of Heavy Industry [ whats left, and that is not much], that Manual Labourers are at best knackered already by the time the reach 65, having in many Cases worked on Building Sites, or in the Railway [P/W] Permanent Way since thay left School at 16.

    If you think life is easy for Manual Workers George and David well give it a try, for you won't have any energy left over either at the beginning or the end of the Day to go out running.

  • Comment number 76.

    "sagamix wrote:
    we don't get too much crime here in Hampstead (North London) but a couple of months back I did have an intruder in the house - quite a frightening chap too - middle of the afternoon it was

    no, I didn't like the look of him one bit ... especially when he started talking to me:

    "Hello there, scared little home owner," he said. "I'm now going to steal your HiFi, your espresso machine and your entire collection of Mao figurines, and then on my way out I'm going to make a right old mess on your carpet."

    "Thank you for your honesty," I said, trembling and not really meaning it"


    Had to be a Conservative thief as a Labour thief would have robbed you blind, cleared out your bank accounts, opened up a few credit agreements in your name, sold your house to your neighbours, messed your carpet and got out before you noticed only to return and point to the Conservatie thief and say "It's all his fault"

    My election slogan "Labour, you just can't trust them!" to go along with "Conservatives, you probably can't trust them either!"

  • Comment number 77.

    "The incoming government will be left a debt mountain higher than anything previously seen in this country. People who understand maths will realise that spending will have to be reduced to cover that."

    That explains where the Labour 27% poll rating comes from then...

  • Comment number 78.

    52#

    Someone on Guido did suggest it might be for the sausages... might result in an unseemly scrabble between him and Eric Pickles!

  • Comment number 79.

    Hopefully the lefty BBC will be first for the cuts---into the real world Thompson [maybe he will have to wear a tie now and shave off his beard!! ] and Robinson-your friends in New Labour cannot save you now !!!ha !!ha !!

  • Comment number 80.

    Whats all the screaming for ,Like on the previous blog the pension age for woman the pension age for men ?
    Why bother what ever the Tory's do .Labor will just pinch the pot like they did with it before.
    Any one seen any gold lately?
    Secondly there will be barely any money two squander if its nulabour any where in office.
    Get real people.
    Stop throwing items in the wood pile theres enough rubbish in there as it is.
    The time is rapidly approaching when some serious and hard decisions will have two take place the British public have seen through nulabour and the tide of change is rapidly approaching.
    Call an election brown.

  • Comment number 81.

    38#

    And I thought you were intelligent by some of your postings earlier on. Turns out you're just another dogwhistler.

    How the hell can you blame it on a party that hasnt been in power for 12 years??

  • Comment number 82.

    "45. At 1:50pm on 06 Oct 2009, FrankandTomsDad wrote:

    The public sector will take an unfair share of that pain"


    In my firm, no-one has received a payrise this year. No-one. Not just a pay freeze for those over £18k. the only people whose income is changing are the owners and their income has gone down because profits are down. It was either that or job cuts.

    That's the private sector. That's the real world. No pay rises by 'right', no union leaders screeching about "de weeerkers' demands".

    Next year, after the Tories get in, things will get better, I'm sure.

  • Comment number 83.

    "In the past, politicians have learned to their cost that honesty is not always the best policy."

    Really? I'm only in my mid-forties myself, so I guess I'm not old enough to remember when politicians tried honesty. Perhaps someone older than me or with a decent knowledge of history could explain what happened the last time politicians experimented with honesty?

  • Comment number 84.

    The Tories are telling you what they think needs to be done. Labour won't tell you what needs to be done but will do the same anyway.

    I've no doubt that Labour hypocrisy and spin will come to the fore by accusing the Tories of pandering to the rich while caning the poor, while still insisting that making us bankrupt will save the country.

  • Comment number 85.

    @48

    How exactly are the tories the cause of the recession when they havent been in power for the last 12 years?

  • Comment number 86.

    44#

    "Do you really think that the people of the UK are really so stupid as not to be able to see this?"

    So it would seem, particularly from some of the evidence on here. They deserve all they get.

    Anyone with any grey matter still intact would be well advised to head for the departure terminals at Heathrow.

  • Comment number 87.

    It is amazing how many people respond by using the spin words of Labour about not trusting a Tory and how evil they are and will be.
    So at least George Osborne told us it is going to hurt and all of us will feel the effects. That at least is what I would call shared responsibility and acceptance of the problem we have.
    Do not forget that prior to the Banking crisis we as a country already had a huge debt and it was still growing. The Banking crisis just made it worst. Labour blame the banking crisis for all of the debt we have. that is just blatant lies.
    So for all of those people who shout about how the Labour Party have given us sound financial management, just go back one year and you will see we were in it up to our necks, courtesy of Labours need to SPEND, SPEND AND SPEND, so much so that now it is like a drug and they cannot fix the habit.Sorry New Labour or whatever you are it's time to go as this massive problem needs to be taken seriously and tackled quickly.
    A lot to be said for getting over the pain as quick as possible. R.I.P. Labour.

  • Comment number 88.

    36

    Saga, I assume from your irrelevent little anecdote that you would not have been concerned if he had said "don't worry, I'm not going to steal anything and will not make a mess on your carpet," while he busily does just that?

  • Comment number 89.

    #57 Del boy Barker

    Conspicuous, mind, absence of cohesive thought. If it doesn't exist, just make it up and shout it out often, tricks you learned from Campy and Mandy no doubt.

  • Comment number 90.

    Why a massive Gamble Nick? Surely he is doing what we want of ALL our politicians and being honest?!

    Do you think the electorate are not intelligent enough to understand the huge problem Labour has got the country in and that very hard decisions/cuts are required to rectify the situation?

    Well done George for highlighting the new Conservatism under Cameron within his announcements, unlike Gordon who as usual fluffed it by promising what he cannot deliver.

    Interesting to see a reference to public sector pension pots as well....this off-balance sheet liability needs to be tackled and fast otherwise there will be more and more uproar from private sector people who are paying for it and who have had their pensions decimated again by Labour over the years (remember the tax credit heist?)

  • Comment number 91.

    PS any one seen the golden goose You remember him the one that lays the golden egg.
    Any one seen baroness of Scotland lately
    Or Mrs Harman for that matter?

  • Comment number 92.

    #36 sagamix

    Well, well saga what a small world.

    For months everybody passing my house have been knocking on my door. When I answer it they say “I am going to vote for anyone but NuLabour” and toddle off.

    After a while I got brassed of with it and stopped answering the door. But the cheeky beggars when I don’t answer shout it through the letterbox…. ”Anybody but NuLabour”.

    I have literally lost count how many.

  • Comment number 93.

    "loquitir wrote:
    16 C6nservative Front benchers are millionaire - Andrew Neil."

    And the Labour front bench are all paupers? There are millionaires in both parties, but somehow Labour supporters always seem to ignore this.

    "The Tories promise tax cuts for the wealthy.

    The Tories maitain their policy on inheritance tax increasing wealth for millionares."

    Now I was taught that the 's' at the end of a word indicated that it was plural - one tax which wouldn't just effect the wealthy is hardly cuts.

    I am not a wealthy person but if you take into account the value of my house, life insurance policy payouts + death benefits from my company my estate would probably be over the tax threshold! My parents would also be over the threshold because of the value of their house which has increased massively since they bought it.

    "Public sector pay freezes.
    Pay cuts across the board.
    "

    Pay freezes or cuts are already taking place in the private sector as profits are down - "profits" are down in the public sector due to lower tax take and higher benefit costs, isn't it time that the public sector work force suffered just a little like the rest of us?

    "25% reduction in disabled persons income"

    Ummm no, this is a reduction in the income of someone who is on IB but shouldn't be, people who actually are disabled will remain on IB.

    "Tory recovery policy

    Winners: the rich
    Losers: the poor or disabled persons"

    Winners (if they pull it off): All of us as we won't end up being taxed until the pips squeek

    Losers (if they pull it off): Labour

    If they don't pull it off than we will probably all be losers - just as we will be if Labour get in again.

    "Cause of the recession = wealthy tories"

    Nope the cause of the recession had more to do with Labour than the Tories who were the opposition, and even Labour aren't entirely to blame for the problems. Maybe you should do a little research into the issue you might actually learn something.

  • Comment number 94.

    29. At 1:35pm on 06 Oct 2009, beardedshrimper wrote:
    I dread to think what David Chameleon and George Osborne will do if they get hold of the economy, Brown may not be pretty but he did the business. Cameron will be much more concerned with which tie to wear at the press conference

    ---------------------------------------
    I presume when Brown "did the business" on the economy you mean in the same way my neighbour's cat "does his business" on my lawn?

  • Comment number 95.

    I am not a diehard labour stooge so at least I can give a realistic view on what I heard from George Osborne.

    It was a well crafted speech that set out many of the problems facing the country that most of us in the real world now recognise. Truthful without being scary.

    Everyone is going to have to give some if the next generation aren't going to be baying for our blood for leaving the country in an unholy big mess for them.

    The thinking behind it all cleared up any illusions some may still have that there is some sort of quick fix. Indeed it showed that their thinking is long term which should give everyone more confidence that there is a way out of this. Those who are still in denial will no doubt remain that way.





  • Comment number 96.

    #57 giggletheloneranger

    You should listen to Fubar.

    You really are a waste of banbdwidth.

  • Comment number 97.

    Do you think politicians make policy decisions on the basis of two great spreadsheets. One calculating the deficit, and the other (more importantly) how many votes are on balance one or lost. Its not that its unfair that those on over £50k lose it (in my opinion they wont notice too much unless they have 5 kids), its about how many of those would switch their vote. Clearly they are all scared of women voters to push back retirement for men and not women.
    And how many voters are there sitting on more than £600k value in their house they want to leave to their children? There are very few voters that would see a direct benefit from the money raised currently who could object..it will just do more to distort the rich vs poor kid life outcomes in future.
    I wonder what the balance is, what is a vote worth against increase in deficit.

  • Comment number 98.

    47

    Indeed, hard times. In an ideal situation, this would not be necessary.

    But then I'm also a believer in doing only what you can afford to do. Why oh why should the average tax payer have to contribute to raising someone else's child?

  • Comment number 99.

    I can remember many years ago being told by a wise old sage that voting Conservative was just like making love with a Durex: safer but you're still getting ******.
    With the Labour Party now on the right,the Tories moving towards the left and the LibDems all over the place no wonder the political scene is in such turmoil!!!

  • Comment number 100.

    Well that's sealed the deal for me; either the tories get in and actually do something about the wrost debt crisis in British history or the general public lose the stomachfor the fight, vote newlabour back in for more of the same mess, and you leave the country.

    Quite a thrilling time really; will the message finally get home to newlabour apologists all over the country that we cannot goi on spending money we don't have or we will soon be bankrupt?

    The debate has moved on, skillfully, from nurses and teachers to are people really serious about joining in to sort out newlabour's mess? Or do they want to pretend?

    Might as well have an election now to see if people have the stomach for it.

    Call one.

 

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