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Pakistan's 'loose nukes'

Mark Urban | 19:15 UK time, Thursday, 11 June 2009

Every now and then in this business someone in a position to know some enthralling secret passes information on to you, but you have no means of backing it up from other sources.

A few years ago, I was told about extraordinary US contingency plans to recover Pakistan's nuclear weapons, in the event of a collapse of law and order or an extremist coup in that country.

My informant gave me considerable detail. A super-secret agreement had been put in place early this decade following confrontations between India and Pakistan, two nuclear armed nations, over the disputed Kashmir region.

In order to stabilise an otherwise potentially highly volatile situation, Pakistan would tell the US where its nuclear weapons were.

India had been promised, that in the event of some Pakistani national cataclysm, the Americans would move in to remove the nuclear weapons.

The "loose nukes" nightmare would thus be avoided, and India would not be tempted into a first strike on Pakistan's atomic arsenal.

Sometimes stories, even from people who have held senior positions in Western governments, are a little too good to be true.

This one seemed to smack of Tom Clancy. Nobody would ever confirm it, and indeed some of those I checked it out with were openly sceptical. So I never ran the story.

Perhaps, after all, my original informant had been trying to plant it.

Now that the Obama administration is openly voicing its concern about the threat to Pakistan's nuclear weapons from rising militancy in that country, some aspects of that original tip off have come back into sharp focus.

In April, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton told a US senate committee, that the US spent a lot of time worrying about Iran getting nuclear weapons, but that Pakistan already had them, and that, "they've adopted a policy of dispersing their nuclear weapons and facilities".

In this phrase, "adopted a policy" I detected a possible inference that Pakistan had moved away from an earlier procedure of keeping their bombs in a small number of locations.

My further inquiries suggested this inference was deliberate.

So here at last was a measure of confirmation for something I had heard years earlier.

As to what exactly Pakistan had told the US in the time of president (and former army chief) Pervez Musharraf, we are once again in hazier territory.

We do know however that Mr Musharraf knew far more about the country's nuclear complex than any civilian leader has ever been allowed to learn.

We also know that in the first years after 9/11, there was intimate strategic co-operation with the US.

Of course any suggestion that the US might, in the past, have had plans to sweep up these weapons is politically sensitive in Pakistan.

The country revels in the status that its arsenal has given it. Any suggestion that there were plans to "secure" the bombs, even in a state of anarchy, would strike many Pakistanis as a US plot to emasculate an Islamic nuclear power.

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Some feel the nuclear danger is being exaggerated in Washington in order to build support for the Obama administration's Af-Pak policy.

There may be something in this, given that the chance of Taliban storming some nuclear weapon storage point is remote.

But the real danger at present lies in subversion.

Pakistan's nuclear establishment produced the unhappy example of AQ Khan, who sold nuclear weapons technology to Libya, North Korea and Iran.

He is said to have acted from a combination of ideological and financial motives.

The chance currently is less of a complete collapse of order, the kind of circumstance under which possible secret plans of yesteryear would have come into play, but of one or more individuals working inside the system providing Islamic militants with nuclear materials or, sum of all nightmares, an entire atomic weapon.


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  • Comment number 1.

    Us is acting really selfish.In order to save their country interest they have put democratic values and humanity on sale.Why US never tried to question AQ KHAN?? just because US needs Pakistan.US is blinded by OSAMA they cant see beyond him.They think by taking him all problems will solve but in real nothing will happen.The real problem is Pakistan and US will not act untill something happen back in US mainland they dont care even hell happen in INDIA.And US will also not allow india to act.This all military operation by Pakistan is drama.You will see this will never stop because if it stops then US will also stop aiding pakistan which pakistan cant afford.US need to wake up soon. If they knows all these things then i feel sorry for US tax payer money.

  • Comment number 2.

    What are you talking neokaran? The Pakistan nuclear issue is real, and it seems that Pakistan will fall into the hands of extremists in a few years! Like it or not, that will be hell!

  • Comment number 3.

    Mr. Neokaran is giving same mantra that Indian TV audiences are fed all the time. Reality is that Pakistan has suffered much more than any other country because of this so called war on terror both economically and socially. No amount of money can make up for it.

  • Comment number 4.

    A brilliant article Mr Urban, but if I am honest the Pakistani media and public have already voiced their verdict and you are saying too little too late.

    Regardless of what many think, India will always be the 'favourite' ally of America as it is on the brink of being the next superpower, whereas Pakistan in all honesty is nowhere near. Pakistan's main claim to fame is there nuclear arsenal and is the pride of the people. Unfortunately, this is a thorn in India's side and so strategically has to be for America as well.

    I do not believe that the Americans or the Western world have ever wanted to accept Pakistan's nuclear capability, and the deals with a sellout Musharraf are of no surprise. The current increased troops in Afghanistan and pressure on Pakistan to fight the Taleban in the NWFP are a strategic manoeuvre to demonstrate to the world Pakistans inability to deal with this 'threat' (dare I say the threat is not to the Pakistanis- there weren't bombs going off in cities before Pakistan embarked on this self-destructing endeavour). I cannot fathom that when it is the Americans who have the most to gain from their current deployment in Afghanistan then why not ensure an unstable Pakistan which will be even more dependent on America, financially and then militarily?

    The best move for Pakistan would be to stop their war in the NWFP- if the concern is their nuclear arsenal then they could increase security in general around these places and not have to kill countless of their own civilians at the beck and call of the Americans. An alliance with the Chinese would be far better and strategic.

    Furthermore, those that understand the innerworkings of the Pakistan heirarchy would be aware that in the hearts and minds of the Pakistani public AQ Khan is a hero (regardless of his 'confessions'), possibly more so for these 'confessions' than for his work in making Pakistan's nuke. A nuke, is unfortunately the only deterrent against the 'bullying' instigated by the Americans, and every country should try and get them however they can. The example of N Korea is sufficient to say, once you have The Bomb, no-one messes with you.... as long as you keep it that way, and Pakistan better wake up or else their only bargaining chip will be confiscated and Pakistan will become the 52nd State (obviously, after the UK).

  • Comment number 5.

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  • Comment number 6.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 7.

    I find it quite amusing that people pass judgement on other countries and citizens as if they know the ins and outs of everything that is going on. Politics is a very dirty game and the common people like us do not entirely understand what the game is. The involvement of the the US in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq is quite unbelievable as I cannot quite understand how the people of the US and the rest of the world for that matter can let the US government continue to be involved in other countries yet their own countries economy is in such a mess.

  • Comment number 8.

    well i can see some "not so surprising " and all too familiar comments from indian users.Actually we go to our TV rooms with friends when ever we want to listen to funny comments regarding Pakistan and tune to indian news channels and have a goog laugh..As a graduate student from pakistan i find this article quite funny to be honest.America cant even get hold of Osama(not so high tech,lives in caves with his "sophisticated" AK47).They dont even have a clue where he is..CIA and FBI knows all abt pak nuclear arsenal but couldnt prevent 9/11..How funny?The whole idea that American Commandoes can over run our 170 million population and 7 hundred thousand strong army and take over our nuclear sites is unrealistic.Americans know that thier technical might counts for nothing(Afghanistan and Iraq prime examples).The point is unstable pakistan is in interest of US.They know the only way to get hold of Pak nuke's is by consent of Pak authorities.So they are deliberatly building pressure and pushing Pak to fight a war (which is not our war) against our own fellow pakistanis.That is resulting in poor law and order situation even in settled areas of the country.India needs US to be controlling the PAK Nuclear arsenal "Button".So they are playing thier part by indirect support (financial and economic)of so called militants.The more the war drags on , more the unstability.That would help US get in a position to demand Command and Control of Pak nukes.And by the way can anyone tell me that how the militants in swat got hold of American weapons?..the same weapons they are using now against Pak army..Fighting the War against infidels with American weapons..Zardari and Co plz wake up

  • Comment number 9.

    Well said groundreality. Listening to the drama queens on the Indian news channels one would feel that the world was coming to an abrupt end and would be taken over by muslim militants who had the backing of the mighty militant super power Pakistan is. Hello? Anybody home? We in the western world are kidding ourselves if we think that Pakistan has, and will continue to financially support these militants. I am sorry to inform all of us to wake up and take a reality check. These militants are definately working for someone but that someone is obviously NOT Pakistan as Pakistand has the most to loose from everything that is going on. Political unrest in that area of the world where there are 2 super powers is in the interest of the US and unfortunately for Pakistan they are the shoulder off which the US cannon is firing. This is due to the weakness of us Pakistanis as a nation. if we were strong enough and united we would not allow someone to use infact mis-use us.
    Islamic extremist are a minority in Pakistan but are shown as a major force due to take over the rest of Pakistan and the world. Having been brought up in Karachi I can assure people that the majority of people in Karachi and the rest of the cosmopolitan cities of Pakistan are very westernised. Do not believe what some people say. We are not a crazed extremist nation. When is the last time in history that a very small minority of people, supported as much as they like by foreign powers, have been able to take over a nation, let alone the world?

  • Comment number 10.

    The main risk is that Pakistan's nuclear know-how is sold in the global free market?

    This might be best addressed at the ongoing 'Doha' world trade talks.

  • Comment number 11.

    I don't know why everyone is concerned with the Pakistan nukes. There's no danger of them falling into any irresponsible hands. People should be more worried about the US and the rest of the nuclear family's assets and their security.

    No one worries about the Israelis or the Indians having numerous bombs. Why is it that if muslim country is working to gain the technology everyone gets up in arms about it.

    This attitude of "we have it and we don't want you to have it" must change so that people can live in peace.

    Pakistan only embarked on this trail in response to the Indians bullying them and gaining the technology aided by the so called civilised US and former USSR.

    How do we know if the US and the rest nuclear arsnals are safe. What about the KKK in america or the BJPs in india getting their hands on their countries bombs?

    No one takes so much of notice in the western media about the North Korea's atomic weapons but a considerably more hu haa is triggered when it comes to Iran.

    No one should fear the so called Islamic bomb because ISLAM does NOT need such primitive devices to enlighten peoples minds as the figures show how it is being accepted around the world especially in the US and Europe.

    All these wars and conflicts are the result of few in west who desire to control the world and scare the general masses into following them. If Islamophobia does the trick then why not?

    These phobias are the product of sick minds who want to enslave the masses and use them to where their whims and desires lead. Lead them to destruction, I believe.

    LIVE and LET LIVE.

  • Comment number 12.

    The US currently trains specially tasked teams who's only job is to combat "loose nukes". These are the guys who get to play with the latest toys and, incidently, these are the guys sanctioned to carry battlefield and portable nuclear devices. The US has many options in play, from the absurd which includes bribing Pakistanis from all strata of society "to tell us things" to onsite securing of facilities by American personnel to the ultimate deployment of battlefield nukes to eliminate deep underground locations. This is common knowledge....not sure why this blogger is so surprised. There are also electronic and other wavelength measures that the US has to disrupt C&C.

  • Comment number 13.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 14.

    ok lets be realistic and honest, who are we kidding at. USA thinks that it has a great responsibility of saving the planet by killing others is so obvious. Why dnt USA mind its own business and let other countries do their business. So far USA has successfully managed to spread this fear among people that Pakistan is in danger and all the attention is being drawn on Pakistan's Nuclear program.
    USA is friend to none but works for its own interests. Why do we hear about Pakistan's Nuclear program all the time that it is in danger and that taliban or militants are going to take over and destroy the world. In my eyes USA it self is the biggest threat to any nations freedom and in reality USA is trying to get hold of Pakistan's Nuclear program in the name of so called "saving" them.
    When India buys Nuclear products and technology from Isreal and USA, then there is no threat to any one but when Pakistan get involve in any such thing, then countries like India, Isreal and USA have fears that Pakistan is going towards destruction, what a shame...!!!
    Pakistan has all the right to make and benefit from Nuclear technology like USA and any other European country and is fully capable of defending it self.
    Militancy has always been a pain for Pakistan and we all know that Indian and Isreal are supporting this militancy to destabalize Pakistan. But i want to tell every one that Pakistan is a nation os strong and brave people. USA and Indian media has always showed the negative side of Pakistan and has created such environment where they can fulfill their own evil plans.
    We are a nation od kind hearted people and our religion and culture promotes harmony and peace. I personally do not hate any one because i believe people are people, some are good and the rest. We should all respect each other as humans and stop thinking bad of others. Evil cannot last for long, its not a matter of IF but When...!!!

  • Comment number 15.

    The story of the US being prepared to seize Pakistans Nuclear weapons was doing the rounds about a year (or maybe 18 mths) ago. The version I heard was that the CIA had offered Highly ranked Military personal 'asylum' for them and their families if it all went T*ts up in Pakistan vis-à-vis the Taliban, as long as they brought all the nuclear weapons to the party.

    I guess whatever the truth in the story, one things for real, China, Russia and India would notm stand by while the Pakistani Taliban set up the missiles.

  • Comment number 16.

    All the comments above are about the obviuos, If the real objective is stability in pakistan, STOP supplying flow of arms and moneys to so called "talibans"(not by the way). The arms used by these hired tajiks (pretending to be taliban) are of INDIAN and US origin. No other country has more consultates in Afghanistan than India (along Pak-Afghan border). Is Afhganistan an upcoming booming economy or upcoming tech Hub that Indians feel they have to be there in such numbers. No. The solution for Pakistan to get rid of this menace and to stabilize is to open a war front with India. That will automatically cut off the life line for militants (as Indians are their main suppliers) and Pakistan will be STABILIZED. No other way. India has to be stopped or they will bleed Pakistan through these insurgents. Pakistan can not afford to wage war on their ownn territory. They must stop the source for this menace and that is India. Direct conflict with India is the only choice left at hand for Pakistanis in order to stop ongoing loss of life and have a stable and viable Pakistan (India feels that they Pakistan on the backfoot now and they will not Stop). And I will not bother to go into who is supporting India on the matter because it is a moot point. Let's just say "Pakistan and India at war" is not a happy place for its supporters.

  • Comment number 17.

    Even I stated in my previous post that Pakistanis need introspection and I reiterate (after reading so many posts by Pakistanis). Indians proved themselves in the world in terms of business potentials, politics, policies etc., now its your turn. Stop cribbing and just prove it. Zardari and Pakistani ambassador to the UK have acknowledged that many sections of the army are not under their control. Isn't this something even Pakistanis should worry about? IMHO, what matters is not teh availability of the nuclear weapons but how safe they are. AQ Khan has accepted the responsibility for selling the technology to Libya, North Korea and probably Iran, is that really sane thing to do by such a qualified man? On the other hand, please tell the world how many democratically elected governments in Pakistan have completed their terms successfully, how many military coups have taken place and why?
    Stop blaming others, whatever country that may be. Unless Pakistan learn to rule itself, the world will rule Pakistan.

  • Comment number 18.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 19.

    People talk about Pakistanis as if that is what the whole nation is all about. She is made up of about 160 million people who in most part are just trying to put food on the table. Majority of the people are rural and extremely tolerant.

    Mrs. Clinton recently commented that US is partly responsible for this mess in Pakistan i.e. Blow Back. Have we forgotten the Charlie Wilson's war? My school was next to the Karachi sea port, where for 10 years, I saw Pak army's National Logistic Cell (NLC) 18 wheelers linked bumper to bumper all the way to Khyber pass 1500 miles away, loaded with weapons. CIA used Pak army and ISI, in short the whole country of Pakistan, to fight their proxy war. We fought that war and now like all the other times, were left to deal with the fall out. Why could US not fight the Russians face to face.? They used a whole country for their interest. Let us not forget 3 million Afghan refugees that were and are still living in Pakistan. Before the Russian war, I had never seen any sort of weapons on the streets of Karachi. Soon after wards, AK-47 became a house hold name.

    No one talks about the WMD excuse to get into Iraq. No matter how bad Saddam was, falsifying evidence to enter someone else's country and to kill more than a million innocent people is still not acceptable. Same game is being applied to our region.

    There are many players in Pakistan. CIA, MI-6, Mossad, RAW to name a few. Not to mention Pakistan's own ISI. All these army generals are on the payroll of the above mentioned agencies. Most of the politicians too. They are given lavish gifts and their children are given full scholarships to study in the countries of their choice. While the rest of the country suffers the consequences of their treason.

    Let's not forget the coup of Dr. Mossadiq of Iran. His secular govt. was dismantled and the nation of Iran was put on a historic journey by Mi-6 and CIA. Why democracy is not being allowed to set foot in Pakistan? Why is every body trying to create havoc in this beautiful country? In the land of hard working and honest people and in the land of tall mountains and lush green pastures and the beautiful deserts and mineral filled valleys? Question is that why is every body so interested in pakistan and this region? Would increasing trade in the possibly stable region e.g. India, Russia, Turkey, Pakistan, Iran Afghanistan and China be of some interest to the west?

    Talibans are a not good for Pakistan. They hurt Pakistani's. They are mixture of Pakistani and foreign nationals. Anyone ever wondered who is financing them? Look no further, it is US and British's key ally, the house of Saud. No one talks about bringing democracy to those countries.

    The only way to make sure the scenario of rouge nukes never happens is to bring stability in this region. When moderate and level headed people are allowed to come in to governance. When education is given importance and when the interest of the people and not of the elite few is considered essential.

    Pakistanis are not terrorists.

  • Comment number 20.

    Its a pity with the problems going on in Afghanistan and Pakistan. To solve the problem, the mindset has to be right. If people in pakistan thinks like zen_usa, then problem will only worsen and pakistan will be one day in the hands of the fundamentalists. The problem is not from outside pakistan. It is in pakistan. People like zen_usa have to open their eyes and realise that they have a problem from the talibans or the fundamentalists who want to ruin pakistan in the name of religion. Once they rule, then there will be violence and inhuman rule within pakistan. Indians are much superior in everything and dont have to worry from Pakistan. And moreover a destablised Pakistan is actually a big problem for India. India will feel secure with a secure Pakistan and Afghanistan. So, why should India send the so called Talibans to destabilise India?
    All i want to say is, open your eyes and see the real threat.
    If nothing is done now, the Talibans from PAKISTAN will rule and Pakistan will be a failed state. Hatred doesnot help. Learn to love and win friends and spread this around rather than war, hatred and enemity.
    Good luck!

  • Comment number 21.

    again the question comes from zaxour about the safety of Pak's Nuclear program. I have said before and i'll say again...STOP potraiting it is a nuclear weapon, it is also nuclear technology which is being used to help the country to satisfy the energy needs. If USA and Isreal can sell nuclear weapons/technology to India, then Pakistan has all the rights to sell to other countries as well.
    These are the double standards which needs to be addressed and countries like India and USA will have to stop playing double sword games. These countries use these double standards for their own interests and for their evil plans to fulfill. Pakistan has some internal problems and India and USA are equally responsible for destabilization inside Pakistan because they cannot see a prosper and growing Pakistan.

  • Comment number 22.

    Pakistan's political history, my god man what in earth has to do with... aah forget it...#17 comment's don't deserve a response as it is irrelevant to current situation. Issue is stability of Pakistan and secure Nukes (securing nukes not a real issue but for argument sake, we shall admit it as being one) that comes with it. Current India's policy of bank rolling the insurgency, backing it up with arms has to be stopped. Going back to the real problem. India. Pakistan army is trained for regular warfare and not for this insurgency response. It is in Pakistan's national security interest to open a conflict with India. United states applied the same strategy, US shifted the venue. Pakistan has to do the same, it actually does more for Pakistan. It stops the insurgency support, loss of civilian lives and infrasturcture, provide Kashmir resolution and secure Pak-Afghan border as before. War with India now will provide Pakistan long lasting stability (probably final conflict as I am sure this time Kashmir issue will be resolved) and hence securing nukes.

  • Comment number 23.

    #20 indeed a simple human man. Obliviuos to the realties on ground. People should read up and read between the lines. Just for starters....Why there is need of mutiple Indian consultes in Afghanistan, a place where I would be afraid of setting up even one consulte, let alone mutiple and close to Pak-Afghan border? Why do the isurgents carry latest American and Indian weaponary? Why now there are factions of so called talibans? Why these insurgents focus on areas close to Nuclear facilities? list goes on... perhaps co-incidence? how convenient for some and not so convenient for others. Don't you think? If external forces Stop the support to insurgency Pakistan would be stable in no time. If and only if...

  • Comment number 24.

    I've seen some comments earlier that India is responsible for the mess in is obvious obsurd!!!

    No one who has functioning brain and that too at right place cannot believe this.....Pakistan is responsible for its own mess. They created the so called TALIBAN in order to take control of Afghanistan (with which India has very good dealings) so that they have puppet govt and like-minded people to play their games higer level.Even true afghan national like 'Masood' doesn't like Pakistan and so is Northern aliance. Due to their miss deeds (escpecially for giving shelter to Osama, 9/11 and their harsh sharia rule) they had to pay price and so their god father Pakistan!!! When Pakistan took U turn on these terrorists, they had no choice but to airm their guns at pakistan for their betrayal. That what they are doing now!!!!

    Pakistan really should take up bold steps and stop those religious madrasa's which are being used as traing camps. Try to bring all its people to main stream and teach them plural values and educate them. Stop spreading gun culture....first of all they have to stop using exporting terrorstis as a foreign policy!!!!

    As coming to India stand, India used to have good relations with Afghans for so many decades before this Taliban mess. India is one of very few countries that completely opposed Taliban rule.Now they feel like give helping hand to afgnas in their reconstruction work. that is what they are doing now. They are invloved in road construction, they built afghan parliment and they are traing afghan police system.....somany thigns.You have to remember Afghan is not still safe place to go. That is why there are so many missions of India so they act as regional safe places to all its citizens in the event of need.

    This is no indiffenet than china involving in construction work in pakistan.....building harbors, trains stations....etc. why pakistan think that in the same way???

    Now pakistan started another dangerous game these days...they sateted propogating India is responsible for this destabilization of is like Gobel's propaganda. India shoudl every step to stop it otherwise whole internatonal community may strt believing this very soon....Present India govt has huge responsibility!!!!!

  • Comment number 25.

    Their are about 10 odd countries in ME , N Africa and elsewhere with civilian nuclear programs on fast track for security reasons (Read Nukes) . NK will likely provide the Nuke Weapons tech when they have build up enough on civilian side to use it. While China smiles with complete deniability, while it gets preferred ME resource access in exchange at best or use it as super leverage against the west at least. There is presidence for this, just look at at Chinas -Pakistan - NKorea , nukes and DF rockets saga.

    Note**: Any country can LEGALLY pull out of CTBT/NPT at anytime for national security reasons , fact that msm downplays. Nk did just this to stay legal when it was ready to test.

  • Comment number 26.

    Response to zen_usa who suggests starting a war with India will somehow solve all the problems in Pakistan. Pakistani army has started wars four times in the history and look where it has taken you. Half of the nation lost, Frankensteins running around in the country and the nation itself in the verge of disintegration. But still you think starting a war will somehow solve all your problems. Ludicrous!!

    Come on mate, do you really think RAW is supporting Taliban. It is the same Taliban affiliated terror groups we are fighting in the northern part of our country. Why would we support them? This is a result of the persistent anti-India diet that an average Pakistani is brought up with right from the birth. We Indians have far bigger fish to fry than supporting Taliban. We are more worried to make our lives better than making your life worse.

    The problem lies in the persistent projection of India as the main threat by the Pakistani defense establishment. They know the only way by which they can keep sucking the country is by creating a fear psychosis against India. Therefore you see all the lies, deceits and frequent ISI sponsored terrorism incidents in India. The very fact that your army prostituted itself to fight on behalf US against the soviets was driven primarily to procure means to gain some sort of leverage over India.

    As long as this artificial enemy called India is kept alive among Pakistanis, there is little chance anything improving. Every major power knows this and have cleverly exploited this sentiment of yours. Whether it is US who wants a presence in this region or China who is happy to see any kind of problem besieging India, all have used your country to achieve their short term goals and at the end of it, have thrown/are throwing you like used toilet tissues.

    You need a revolution in your country. A revolution that will enable to average Pakistani to accept the truth and ground realities and stop seeing India as the main threat. Then you need a revolution to reform your defense establishment to get rid of the anti-India hawks who will go upto any extent, even if it means jeopardizing their own country, to hurt India in whatever way possible. Only then there will be some hope of your nation surviving. I agree with malang786. Pakistanis are NOT terrorists. Most of my Pakistani friends are hard working, honest and lovely people and I will go upto any extent to defend them, as they will do for me. However Pakistanis today need much more than being just good people. They need a radical change in mindset to see truth as plain truth and not what their "leaders" want them to see.

  • Comment number 27.

    oh well! lets stop look at things from smaller view and rather find out the reson why us have to interfer so much with few countries(rather most of them), extemist are the rest of seeds of US itself and the world knows it, regarding the point how washington plans the policies towards Islamabad is everything that has to do with playing as a power player in the region .
    US can never allow two super power's to emerge in asia.
    and as US economy is favoured by arms race in this region from where billions are spend towards it.
    and the complex corrupt democratic govt. in INDIA will never be able to take a tough stand againstanything happening in INDIA or outside.
    It is just to make money and compromise as much as every INDIAN can.

  • Comment number 28.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 29.

    Response to ma_the_guru. First learn to rule yourself. Then dream of ruling India.

  • Comment number 30.

    Twisting words.... never claimed "a war with India will somehow solve all the problems in Pakistan" only the problem of insurgency and securing Nukes. Pakistan's political and economical viability is another subject. This by the way folks/peopele is a good example of propaganda and diverting attention. Puting words in other people mouth's that suit your own interest. Pakistan's politics and economics is NOT the issue. Issue at hand is insurgency and securing nukes. Stay with it (hard to do but do try). Indians on this blog apparently can not fathom or admit to the notion of RAW's support to insurgence (I wouldn't either if I was in their shoes). But the fact remains. And In my humble opinion India will not quit the support for insurgency and Pakistan is not left with any choice but to engage India. In a conflict, Armies should be fighting, not innocent civilians. In this case civilans are dying. I am stricly opposed to loss of civilian life any where on this or any other planet.

  • Comment number 31.

    ma_the_guru, Let me try to answer your queries...

    About your query of India deploying more troops in the Chinese borders--

    The whole world knows Chinese have an expansionist agenda. Tibet, Taiwan to name a few.. They have attacked us in the past and still claim large portion of our land as theirs... Hence the deployment..

    About troop withdrawal from "occupied" Kashmir and where they will be deployed.

    You are probably right. They may have to be deployed in the border with Pak. Given the active terror factories that exist in Pakistan and given the constant attempt of the Pakistani security establishment to export packaged terrorism as part of its foreign policy towards India I am think we have all the rights to defend ourselves. In any case the troops are deployed in our side of the boundary. What makes you so itchy about this?

    About your perception of Independence of India.

    Not that we need a certificate from you but the reality is that in 60 years of history we have achieved a lot to make our lives better and in the same time you have managed to achieve a lot to make your lives worse. Yes there are a lot of problems in India but the important thing is we are in the right direction. Not sure about the direction that your army is taking you though.

    About Mughal era and all those nonsense... see my previous post (#29). In any case we are in the 21st century and the sooner you realize this the better it will be for you.

  • Comment number 32.

    By the way US applied the same strategy.. they went after the source. In world's opinion that was the right and aceptable thing to do. So why should be any different for Pakistan? It is a matter of national security for Pakistan and the source of this insurgency is State of India sponsored (RAW) then the fight should directly be taken to them and not to the pawns across PAK-Afghan border. Wouldn't that be the most logical thing to do? However if Government of India pulls back from this endeavour then obviuosly there is no need for this conflict to occur. But as it stands now Indo Pak war is the solution. INDIA has to STOP CROSS BORDER TERRORISM, just like any other guilty party.

  • Comment number 33.


    and #31

    about the chinese - well your lot are not that different. You just commit genocide to expand from within. remember Gujraat?

    troop deployment - so you do agree that your establishment does have the bullying attitude?

    your friendly relations with neighbours - burning friendly trains and people in them?

    independence - you have achieved a lot, to make people's live better? more like miserable worse. Kashmir and Bihar on top of list.

    democracy - largest minority treatment. civilised? no jobs or any prospects for them. burning historic relgious buildings and desecrating them, Barbery Masjid and Sikh temple come to mind among other not so familiar ones.

    Mughal era - nonsense? you obviously are not familiar with history and as usual conveniently forget (as most indians do) the past in which your ilk were treated very fairly by the rulers.

    There's loads more BUT hey, I've got a home to go to.

    Contemplate, and enjoy the weekend.

  • Comment number 34.

    HANDS OFF PAKISTAN. Pakistan is in a mess because of foreign interference. India, the US and Israel are all in cahoots in a bid to destabilized Pakistan and Iran. The rest of the Muslim world is pretty much under their thumbs. If they could just foment more trouble in Iran and destabilize Pakistan, there would be no organized threat from any Muslim countries. The rest of the Muslim countries are already in their clutches, cowed down by US and Israeli military power.

  • Comment number 35.

    I have read all the comments both from Indians and Pakistanis, to start with Iam an Indian and have nothing against pakistan. I do watch Indian channels and read most of the pakistani papers everyday.

    Let us start with the creation of pakistan, for good or bad Mr.Zinnah has anticipated a threat from majority of Hindus on Muslims as India was ruled by muslims for almost 1000 years which in fact is a fear that got some reason as Hindus once they get independence will not like the presence of Muslims, but the fact is that India remained secular and sticked to its founding principles of secularism, now millions of muslims live in peace alongside Hindus in every inch of India (if pakistanis dont belive this read the articles written by your own correspondents in news papers of dawn and bbc urdu)

    The main problem with pakistan arised as the founding father who fulfilled the dream of a muslim nation for Indian muslims died before he put the country in a right path of development, he is the only person who could have steamlined the countries political scenario and oblised the zamindari system which till today exists in pakistan and taking away the right of its very own people. Since then the country fell into military rule again and again who needs a reason for their very existence and a strong hold on the country, so it went on wars with India which both India and pakistan cannot afford. Pakistan should have got a powerful leader or leaders who can put the country in right track but instead it was ruled by greedy military leaders who cannot take their decisions on their own. USA is the country which is responsible for pakistans todays plight as they over and over exploited pakistan decade after decade. Infact USA is fuelling pakistanis to burn their own house so that the americans can stay warm far in North America. Pakistan should not listen to America as it is a soverign nation and take its own decision, if it can fight with India fight on its own with out taking an advise from USA.

    Talking about India, India is not a peaceful country, it is a voilent as an Indian Iam saying that, India has split pakistan into two countries and doing everything to exploit paksitan and vice versa India is bulding the dams stopped pakistans water, fuelling insuregencies I accept, But we are only doing it as a retaliation we never initated anything on our own, its just a reaction to an action of pakistan by a very powerful country. Pakistan should accept the superiority of India and come up with terms with India. War is not good for India and pakistan we are already 40 years behind the rest of the world.

    I had tears in my eyes after reading the comments of malang786 very well written about how the world is exploiting the country. Pakistanis should take their own decision, have to fight only if it is in its intrests but not because USA wants it. They should have a strong political system and be assertive with the world be it with India or USA and act for its self intrests. Pakistan is now burning its own house to make the neighbours feel the heat. Recently I wondered about pakistan celebrating their day of nuclear tests and I dont think it is a day of acheivement to celebrate considering the track record and speculations about the security of their weapons program. I wonder why a south asian muslim country should worry about a jewish country located in middle east, it got nothing to do with pakistan, this kind of approach of involving in issues not related to its geography and orgin are creating the problems in pakistan.

    One of my fren Zen_USA wants war with India, If pakistan nukes India does India sit quitely It will retaliate like always and pakistan history clearly tells what it lost while it is on a war with India. This also means that we are going to end the 4000 year old civililsation just in fewdays. I hope no one in the world wants that so guys please wake up stop talking about the wars.

  • Comment number 36.

    Hi ma_the_guru #33,

    Come on man, Gujrat thing happned, other than potlitically motivated people, every indian feel bad about it.Slowly but firmly all steps being taken ( even though same govt still functionig in state, new probe has been ordered and some high profile people convicted)....we can hope that nobody would dare to resort such barbaric thing again......( I dont want to consider minority treatment in pakistan.....nobody knows!!! in 1947 10 -15% are hindus/sikhs. now not even 2%. what happend??? everybody knows forceful converstions!!!!)

    It was not bullying my friend......tit for tat!!! well comapring size of India to Pakistan people like you say it is bullying. but infact it is not.Pakistan (though being a small country) not behaving like a small rat coming into home doing small mess, but it was doing great deal of 'overtime' to look for options to destabilize india for a long time. we have seen it during 'Punjab' phase and now in Kashmir no responsible govt can take it lightly, they have to take all steps to stop infiltration of terrorists, who are part of foreign policy. More than few elites of pakistan agreed that pakistan did used terrorism as foreign policy against India.....

    coming to ur thrid point, everybody feel bad that army entered the most sacred place of sikh community but at the same time nobdy denies the threat posed by terrorists hiding inside it. govt took bold step at that time, that hurt sentiments of many sikhs, but proved to be best for national interest. coming to babri masjid issue, well, that was one of its kind, that happened during one of the most turblent world times i mean 1990s. things were quite different then. not like your taliban people laying jijiya tax on poor minorities in 21st one of our friend pointed out, atleast we are heaing up where are Pakistan heading DOWN!!!! take care man!!!

    I agree bihar and kashmir are lagging behind than other states but you know what they are doing far better than you think......kashmir now headed by young and dinamic CM and so is bihar by very good CM. both of them are sincere, you just keep counting in next 5 years Kashmir & Bihar do wonders, I have no doubt!!!

    Come on man, you guys are most ignorent of history.....for you guys history means....harappa civilization and next mughals and then birtish and now pakistan....but for us there is lot of history between harappa civilization and for us there are much better rulers than mughals.......first learn 'OUR' history!!!

    Going home??? Well, if you are from pakistan, be careful, your taliban brothers might be at home by the time you are there!!!!

  • Comment number 37.

    The pointless mud-slinging and finger-pointing that both pakistanis and indians are wont to do is an ignominy. We are a people united by over 5000 years of common heritage and culture. Islam may have altered but in the end enriched that culture by giving us luminaries such as Amir Khusro and Bulle Shah and Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. To state that these two countries do not have a common future is to be disingenuous. Even China and Afghanistan,(my nation),Iran and Bangladesh have cultural ties with the subcontinent. Enter the pseudo-jehadis who are bent on telling the pakistani people that they must forsake their culture, their ethnic ties to India and ape the backwater bedouin wahabis of Saudi Arabia. Nay, for Mohammad and the quranic principles explicitly forbid killing of non-combatants and Islam as a faith can easily be reconciled with civil society today. As a student of comparitive religion, history and philology, I am confident in that statement. These extremists have not the slightest inkling of Islam or even islamic holy war for that matter. However it will also not do for the pakistanis to conjure up false propaganda and conspiracy theories. Pakistanis greatest enemies are within, these extremists are its own creation albeit with help from the US and Saudi Arabia. They are pakistan's problem and the US should adopt a much harsher stance in dealing militants. Afghanistan and Pakistan rather than Iraq is the arena where all members of the civilized world must unite to defeat the threat of terrorism. Once this is done the seminaries in Saudi Arabia that are preaching such hate should also forcefully be closed down. They are nefarious fanatics who under the guise of religion are eating away at the roots of Afghanistan and Pakistan. Afghanistan has no particular army as such but pakistan boasts an army that consumes much of its revenue. What are the supposedly famed Pakistani commando's and crack troops doing, while their nation totters upon the brink of failure. Just today a cleric who denigrated the Taliban was killed in his seminary. When will Pakistan realize that these people cannot be dealth with except with an iron fist. Its the time for action for pakistan and therefore for stabilization of the Subcontinent in the foreseeable future.

  • Comment number 38.

    I remember the days of the Afghan jihad in the 1980s, when non-military Bedford trucks used to leave Ojri Camp, the main ammunition dump on the outskirts of Islamabad, in the darkness of the night headed for the Afghan front. Pakistan was the frontline state against the Communist menace and was discarded like a kleenex the moment the Soviets were defeated.

    Now Pakistan is given a few billion dollars, not ten billion dollars as claimed by the media, but five billion dollars - a pittance compared to the expenditures annually by Allied forces. And everyone expects Pakistan to perform. In the meantime, US forces cannot control Afghanistan, despite the technology and the funds available to them.

    Pakistan has done extremely well considering its resources and the lack thereof. Instead of appreciating Pakistan, the Americans and their perpetual pet, the British, keeping harping the same tune - "Do more, do more." How can Pakistan be expected to do more when the US is reluctant to provide even the basic equipment needed in a timely fashion, what to talk of advanced equipment, like heavy life helicopters and night vision goggles. The US and Allied countries need to "do more."

  • Comment number 39.

    I think it is interesting to note the sequence of events:

    1. During Musharraf/Bush's time, the terrorist attacks were limited to NWFP or some highly sensitive targets in Pakistan. Were very rare.

    2. A fragile government takes over that was 'elected democratically'. Basically, a govt giving India and the US whatever they want.

    3. Attacks happen in Mumbai. Even before everyone is killed or captured, the Indian PM comes on national TV blaming Pakistan.

    4. Indian media goes ballistic against Pakistan. Within hours they have 'detailed reports and evidences' that the attackers were Pakistanis. Even though Pakistan is caught up the in the Taliban craziness.

    5. India does not take any action publicly.

    6. Bombs start going off all over Pakistan even killing anti-Taliban mullahs.

    Is India just a spectator? Is is really?

    For decades, India has sought the destruction of Pakistan. The Jihadis of Afghanistan provided US the tool it needed to destroy USSR. India is using the same tool against Pakistan.

    DONT DESTROY MY HOME!!! plea from a moderate Pakistani who just wants to go home and live a simple life with his family in Lahore.

  • Comment number 40.

    All of the burden in this situation is on the Pakistani people and their government. If Pakistan was a stable country with a government that controlled all of its territory rather than allowing large areas to be run by Islamic extremists who have declared war on "infidels" and openly promote genocide, this potential US plan wouldn't be necessary. This is the fault of Pakistan and its instability, not other countries' foreign policies. They need to fix it quickly if they don't want another country like the US to intervene in the event that the Pakistani government loses control. 9/11 can never be allowed to happen again and the US government isn't about to trust nuclear weapons in Pakistan in the hands of anyone other than the Pakistani government, whether the Pakistani people like it or not. No sane person could blame the US government for having a plan for the event that the unthinkable happens and the Taliban/Al Qaeda gain control of the country.

  • Comment number 41.

    Dear Maa-the-guntur and zen_usa

    stop getting obsessed with India, we know we have our problems and we know how to sort out the problems of our country, Pakistan is not an advocate of Indian Muslims, they are as much as Indians as we all are. if you think that all Indians are religous then BJP would have won the elections with a huge majority, we have a Sikh prime minister and a muslim president and most of heads of the judiciary are muslims. The bollywood stars that you all love are muslims and we love them as much as you do. In country of 1.2BN you will obvisouly get issues, but as a country we are all together and we will continue do so.

    If you love your country try to change the political system fight against the land lords, fight against the extermists. If you start the blame game we have endless records against you, Who has supported sikhs in 1984, who blew up buildings in bombay in 1993, 2004 and 2008, who attacked indian parliament, who hijacked air india in 2004, who made insurgencies in kargil in 1999, why kashmir is burning since 1987, who supports laskar e taiba, jaish e mohammad we can give endless incidents of your involvement. The issue is about the security of your own nation, If you feel India is reponsible for what ever happening you might find your country in 4 different peices in the near future if u dont act on the right people. Now I dont really wonder how can the military generals can rule such a big country again and again, the brain washing is working on all you guys, keep it up.

  • Comment number 42.


    India is not the US and this is not 1971 and nor is Pakistan equivalent to Iraq or Afghanistan. The one thing most Pakistanis unite on is the fact that India has sought to harm Pakistan, whenever possible. Who has broken the Indus Water Treaty? Who has opened 16 Consulates in Eastern Afghanistan, ostensibly for promoting commercial interests? Which country blames everything on Pakistan despite lack of evidence?

    Let there be no ambiguity that Pakistan, in this shape, can take on India and defend itself, should India thrust war on Pakistan. So much for talk of surgical strikes on Pakistan when half the Indian armour stands in workshops because it doesn't work and the Indian Air Force is reputed to be a widow maker.

  • Comment number 43.

    Hey guys,

    Is India using taliban to destroy pakistan, wat a joke look at what your favourite cricket star Imran Khan said in his recent interview he said taliban are the people created by ISI to fight against Soviets, as soon as soviets left in 1989 then the trouble in Kashmir started, they are your clandestine army even a small research on the internet can tell you these facts. So now because you guys cheated them by listening to US you are facing their reaction I just wonder dont you read your own news papers read dawn dudes... they will tell clearly wats happening. OK let us believe what you guys are saying for sometime so does it mean that ISI and RAW are friends now, If what ever you are saying is correct then Iam quite glad that at least we are doing something as a reaction because we blame our government about not doing anything for all the bomb blasts happened in India in the last 20 years. what ever we used to say as cross border terrorism, clandestine army are now being said by Pakistanis now I hope you how it feels when a bomb explodes in your cities and you are feeling the pinch. Indian involvement is not true, it is the reaction that you are experiencing by the changed US strategy since post soviet era.. come on guys. Before world leaders used to come 2 India and then pakistan, now they coming to afganistan and pakistan, a lot of progress. The real threat India has got is China which extended its influence in Nepal, pakistan , Bangladesh, Burma and srilanka.

    Indian armour is in workshops? we are launching satellites of developed nations, an IT and Biotechnology superpower and do you know which country produces highest no of doctors and engineers and which country sends highest no of International students in the world. We are a G20,G8 and future superpower, we are going to moon in 2015. we got spy satellites, AWACS radars, air craft carriers, building own fighter jets, we don't buy our weapons with the money that's given in aid. If you want to see real India visit Noida,Banglore,Hyderabad,Pune.

    Let us be constructive hope this menace will be finished off by your mighty army and we settle our issues soon with both democratic governments ruling our nations. No one wants to see their fellow citizens dyeing everyday. All the best for the army action in Afgan borders and I hope India will try to do its best to stabilize the region.

  • Comment number 44.

    Why doesn't the US try to secure India's nukes lest they fall into the hands of separatist groups like those fighting for liberation of Assam? Because it shouldn't. Not because it doesn't need to. Not because India can look after its self. Simply because every country should mind it's own business. I think it's extremely simplistic to assume that India is not supporting subversive groups in Pakistan. But talking about these things is futile. It's not helpful. These blame games have been going on for six decades now.

    It is irreponsible to assume that the Taliban can easily gain access to Pakistan's nuclear weapons. It is even more irresponsible to report it as such. Do you think the nukes are on the supermarket shelves in Islamabad, right next to the fresh produce? Some planners in the US administration are like teenager on Red Bull; easily excitable about the smallest issues. But I hope this administration takes a different approach and works with the Pakistani government and tackle issues of mutual concern together. Let's hope sense prevails everywhere and also that Pakistan succeeds in eliminating the Taliban. And that India minds its own business while Pakistan does so.

  • Comment number 45.

    ma_the_guru mate....

    So according to you any action taken by India that stops the terror nutters brainfooled in the run ISI terror factories from entering into our country is "bullying attitude"!

    Yes we have achieved a lot after our independence. You just have to come out of the daily dose of anti-India pills that you live on and you have can see truth. When you were busy plotting how to harm us we were busy in building educational instituations and hositals.. We are far far from what can be called as an ideal society but, as I said earlier, we are moving in the right direction.. Can you say the same about your country??

    No job prospects for minorities in India??? Then how come the Azims, Sharukhs, Abdul Kalams, Rahmans made it to where they are.. This might come to you as surprise, but two of the best divisions of Indian army to which you lost half of your nation in 1971 were fully composed of Muslims. And you know what.. we are proud of them.. Can you tell the same about the minorities, or whatever is left of them in your country,

    And Mughal era rulers treated the native Indians fairly??? Does the word Jaziya imposed by Aurangzeb ring any bell to you??? The mindless killings of native Indians and their forceful conversion by these rulers just becase they believed in a different God is well documented..

    Sorry mate.. you have nothing to jump on the moral high horse.. Your country is living in borrowed time.. You can be honest and accept where the problem lies, drop your anti-India bigotry and take reasonable steps to dismantle the Frankestein producing factories that you have set up in your country. Or you can be an ostrich, pretend everything is fine, blame everything on India and watch your nation going down the drain. Choose the former and as Indians we will be more than willing to extend our helping hand. It is in our interest to have a stable and secure you. Choose the later... Well.. May the Almighty save you.

  • Comment number 46.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 47.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 48.

    The bulk of the Indian armor is T-55, the same tanks used by Saddam, plus T-72s. India bought T-90s but there are maintenance issues. The Indian army cancelled the contract with DRDO for the home-made Arjun tanks because of quality issues. There are spare parts supply issues with the T-90, which overheats in the Rajasthan Desert. As far as the state of the art Su-30 planes, they have started falling out of the sky like the flying coffins, better known as MiG-21s. Indian soldiers commit suicide at an alarming rate due to the low morale within the army.

    Your only aircraft carrier is the INS Vikrant which spends more time in the shipyards for repairs.

    Your AWACS are supplied by Israel just last month and are not operational yet.

    The indigenous LCA is years beyond delays.

    Indians should look at the reality, not just the "India shining" mantra. India is no match to China. And should be aware of its position. Yes India will be a big power someday but it is not one today.

    If India really wants to stabilize the region, it has to close down its intelligence outposts in the form of Consulates in Afghanistan, stop supporting the so-called Tehrik-Taliban Pakistan, stop cooperating with the Mossad in destabilizing Balochistan (Pakistani and Iranian) and resolve all outstanding issues with not only Pakistan, but all its neighbors.

    India has problems with all its neighbors on some pretext or the other, whether it is Pakistan, Nepal, China, Sri Lanka. India pissed off the Iranians with the pipeline issue due to Israeli and US pressure.

    This is reality, not spin.

  • Comment number 49.

    I think u forgot about the INS Vikramaditya and the recent Aero India 2009 in Bangalore when all the air craft producers including Lockheed martin queued up before us begging us to buy their aircraft's to run their businesses including vladimir putin personally coming and requesting us to make a deal with them, we are going to have a completely new fleet of air crafts. I think u might not have got the F16's promised decades back delivered till now. China is going to follow the same USSR path with Tibet being declared as a new country that is going to happen soon. we got our deal for energy with US and France and we don't want to give Pakistan a chance to block our oil and gas in case of conflict so u missed out a chance to blackmail us in the future, we got Indus, Chenab, Sutlej in our hands anyways. Iran havent got pissed off with India, it got pissed of with Pakistan and closed borders last week accusing of cross border infiltration from Pakistan, soon china also going to do the same if TTP is not controlled.

    Anyway s time to hit the bed., we had enough debate. Best wishes, hope Pakistan also becomes a prosperous and peaceful nation in the future and we will always have this cat and mouse game between us, as we are like Anil Ambani and Mukesh Ambani trying to prove who is the best...

    Peace..Peace...Peace...Inshallah one day we will have.

  • Comment number 50.

    Yes but India doesn't make its own planes... its had this tender of 126 planes for the past 15 years, if not more.

  • Comment number 51.

    Cheers Mark!
    You did exactly what you were suppose to do, The Great British thing keep third world people engage in fight with each others and observe from the distance. Although its just a Blog but yours self-created semi authentic story is doing its job. Cant write much as I fear it might not get published here

    First of all, I wonder why this news website is provoking false propaganda against Pakistan. I regularly read news from this site and have noticed many times incorrect news about Pakistans current situation. Some how these news channels are also contributing factor and big source of creating disturbance among people. They are paying their fair share in collective struggle against Islamic world. In the end these very people provide political asylum to the people who are some how responsible for or linked to terrorism in those countries.

    #24 MKP520 your comments are really funny, India helping Afghanistan in building their county ignored recent news about child stars of Slum dog millionaire movie were forced out from their houses. Although they were lucky enough to find sponsors in the end but there are hundreds of millions of people in thriving and booming India who dont have housing available, no basic living facilities and below the poverty line. Is it some kind of joke that India helping Afghanistan with eight embassies only in eastern Afghanistan but ignoring their own poor, hungry, naked people left to die on the roads?

    No more past stories please!!! If Indians are brave enough then please accept the fact that Indians (RAW) are involved in this insurgency. PLEASE!!! Show this to the rest of the world that you are civilized people and have enough confidence to accept the fact in front of tiny Pakistan. Why Pakistan is not blaming openly in media against India is because of the presence of American in Pakistan for the last one year trying to pressurise Pakistani Govt not to disclose the facts. Also trying to monitor activities of Pakistan Army and prevent Pakistan to react against India. Pakistani local news papers are full of evidence but I wonder how western media and most of all Mr Urban have been unable to uncover the truth

    Also for the ignorant readers, around the world who only rely on western media, it is very common in Pakistans society that most people have some close friend or family member is serving Pakistan military forces who are a direct source of authentic information which is generally never published on western news channels.

    I wonder why people talk about India and Pakistan are equal or Pakistan trying to compete with India. I am a Pakistani and dont really accept that but I believe that being able to handle and keep your self safe from an enemy who is already ten times stronger and bigger, well in theory actually, is really some hell of a job. Which Pakistan is already doing very well, for its existence, for well over 60 Years.

    I am not sorry for India losing its hope for the AKHAND BHARAT by losing another war in SWAT. Also dont forget the dream of new Pakhtoon State in combined eastern Afghanistan, NWFP and Balochistan currently in the minds of many Pakhtoons with the help of US, Isreal, Indian and Europe.

  • Comment number 52.

    I hope many Pakistanis here read their fellow Pakistani Ahmed Rashid's books(DontDestroymyHome he might be living few blocks from your place). Rashid who traveled Afg for research into the subject clearly says that Taliban (Tehrik.. were Pashtun offshoots of Afg Taliban) was created after 1992 chaos in Afg. Initially ISI and Benazir did not support Talibs since they din't think Talibs would survive. Once Talibs started gaining ground they supported them for control of trade routes to Central Asia and then later as strategic depth against India.

    Why are Pakistanis so surprised about funding for Taliban? Their drug trade is worth $0.5 billion (drugs consumed by US and Europe, thus West is funding both sides of War on Terror). That should be sufficient to fund a million insurgents since there are not many jobs paying $500/year in the region. No need for Indian support. What about their control of Emerald mines and local taxation?

    Problem Identification:
    I have Indian friends whose knowledge of history, when they come to the West is not different from what is taught here. I can not say the same about Pak. Read your social studies books and read your 1956 constitution. It clearly says no non-muslim can be President of Pak. WIKI for Pak 1956 const. There are many other inhuman requirements/laws. Read your own constitution(don't you know ur civics).

    Of course Indians tend to get excited about Pak, sometimes unnecessarily. While the Mujahedin were created by US/CIA/ISI, the Taliban is entirely Pak's creation. This is what Rashid says.

    Possible Solution:
    I think Pakis are just as nice people as anyone else but they are innocent victims of a non-local/foreign culture. A culture that evolved in a desert has to be violent due to scarce resources. Pak is no place for such culture. People of Pak deserve better.

    And why does a biology textbook in Pakistan has a quote from Quran?

  • Comment number 53.

    I would really like to be honest and straight to the point, like someone said up their Politics is a dirty game, and the main board to play this game is Media, When USA wanted to attack Iraq it just showed to many times that IRAQ had WMDs, that normal people who didnt even cared about it just presumed that IRAQ have something like this, basically this is the same thing which they are doing with Pakistan, u can read about nukes nd stuff everywhere, nd Now most of the people assume that Pakistan is a terrorist country,the xtremist will get hand on Pakistans weapons nd so on.,,,,,

    Well would say one thing, If Pakistan can make these weapons, keeping it secret from CIA and Mossad (not wholly) but a part of it, then they also know how to take care of it.

    USA , Israel and India never wanted to see a Muslim nuclear country and they dont want to see in the future, but they must believe in this fact as well once u got it u cant get rid of it, e.g North Korea (USA cant do nothing except putting sanctions).

    Just a question here for the people who say Pakistan is a terrorist country,
    DID any one heard something like this before the American forces came into Afghanistan?
    DID we had Taliban of Pakistan before or suicide attacks?

    Answer is No just 4 or 5 bomb blasts a year predominantly on Sunni Shias places,,

    American admit by themselves that they had put Pakistan in trouble since they are there.The Taliban are fighting with the American,Russian and Indian weapons with the Pakistani forces. I do not see any home grown militancy problem in Pakistan(they had some group but they were never so extreme).

    DID anyone else have ever though from where they are getting the weapons and money from??? The so called tribal people can make highly Improvised Explosion Devices....

    Ohhh come one it cant be done without the help of any state its obvious, mainly the get the money from rich Arab countries and India nd RAW is clearly using this oppurtunity to brain wash people and send them to fight in Pakistan.

    3 Days ago the opposition in the Pakistani parliament was demanding government , to show the proofs of the Indian involvement in the NWFP , and Baluchistan unrest, they were asking if they were shown the proofs in the meeting so y the government is not showing it to public?? They are politicians as well may be they are planning something more dirty, thats y they dont yet want us to know.

    2 Days ago American asked Indians to close down its Jalalabad High Commission , as it wasnt involved in any relief activities over there.

    Above of all, India a country whose 500 million people lives on less then a dollar a day, had pumped 1.2 billion dollars in Afghan in last 3 years or soo lolxxxxxx seems like a joke.

    Lets come to end , if Pakistan keeps on fighting militancy , and the countries which are secretly nourishing Taliban continue their activities, so this Menace will grow, Americans and Nato would lost in Afghan and their is not going to be peace in India or in the region or the whole world. Instead of playing dirty politics , countries must work together honestly to stop this mess and must realise a Mess like nowadays in Pakistan is not going to be in favour of our world.

    A good thing is America had realised and is seeming quite honest with Pakistan, that this mess has to get sorted out and Pakistan knows what its enemies are planning for it , so he knows we have to eradicate this problem and then give a dose to those who were responsible.

  • Comment number 54.


    Only the West and the Russians make fighter jets. Not even China has its jets deployed. Wiki for Chinese jets. Anyway the West must be making a lot of money from all these conflicts. Well thanks to Indians Pakis and Chinese (and others) for supporting our industry. Please keep fighting.

    If any Pakistani does not want to get offended do not read the article by Christopher Hitchens about Pakistan. He rips it absolutely.

    As far as US influence/interferece in the region: I think the Taliban have brought it on themselves. They should never have hosted a criminal like bin Laden who killed 3000 of ours on 9/11. When a giant is provoked the consequences can be catastrophic. They should have handed over bin Laden to the US. US has the right to stay there till they get bin Laden.

    I know Pakistanis would like to believe Mossad/Bush is responsible but I don;t buy your conspiracy theories. Why? Your own fellow citizen Ahmed Rashid published a book in 2000(before 9/11) called "Taliban:...". If someone read the book before 9/11 they could have easily predicted such an event. Bush or advisors should have read the book. Of course The Clash of Civilizations by Samuel Huntington predicted a similar course of history after 1996.

  • Comment number 55.

    I agree with Pakistanis that the Indians have consulates in Afg but not as many as they would like to believe. I think the number is more like 4-5. Of course that is also to high, but why 4-5?

    Look up the recently constructed($ 1bn) road between Iran and Afg by the Indians. This was meant to weaken US dependence on Pak for supplies and start an alternate route via Iran, to which the US has recently been warming up. Also the idea is to increase to increase trade between Iran and Afg. Not altruistic. The intent is to reduce Pak's influence and undermine its interests in Afg.

    While Pakistani friends here are right about the intent of the Indians, they are not about the mechanism. An Indian loves Taliban as much as a Pakitsani loves the BJP. It is also common sense. Indians supporting Taliban is like Pakistanis supporting BJP, neither makes any sense.

  • Comment number 56.

    Yes while world has got all its guns pointed at my poor homeland it was actually Indian nuke scientist who has gone missing and not a Pakistani.

    The article is nicely timed to divert attention away from news of missing Indian scientist Mr. Loknath Mahalingam.

  • Comment number 57.

    by reading all those comments, found there is huge communication gap between the two types of posters here. one keep blind eye on one side and blame the other for all the ills.

    Lets admit, RAW and ISI do not play mickey mouse trick towards each other.
    If I was an Indian, i would be proud of RAW and Indian strategy, that has achieved success in 1971 by dissecting Pakistan, and more recently successfully using a policy to destabilize Pakistan with co ordination with Mossad and CIA. RAW used same tool, religion to create havoc, that has been tried and tested in Russian ouster from Afghanistan by CIA and ISI.

    By achieving that, they successfully engaged Pakistan army within its borders and also keeping ISI busy, without worrying and focusing in Kashmir.

    In this grand game to denuclearize Pakistan and its division to make it sub servant and tiny toothless country, CIA is a major player, playing alongside Pakistan and India a double game for its own purpose.

    ISI has been sleeping, when they required to be much active. It took time, but I guess they are rising to the need of Pakistan security at last.

    Pakistan is daily painted in media as poorest of poor country and same as Afghanistan. In reality its not true, one has to go and visit Pakistan to see the ground realities. Pakistan is quite developed country with modern infrastructure, motorways, thriving cities like Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad, Faisalabad. Its economy has been growing aggressively with rate only behind China for one year in last decade and among top 5 with GDP growth. Not many would have imagined that. It has all changed now in last 2 years with consistent security situation though.

    Pakistan will not fall with a handful of militants sponsored by some powers for own interest.

    Hence, in current scenario, we will continue to see bombs attacks in Pakistan for next few years, as these helps to create image of destabilized country which shouldn't have nukes at all. So we all common citizens of Sub continents and the world have to just watch and see who succeed in this clandestine war. India and US or Pakistan survive all odds and stays as country and nuclear state. Richard Halibrook who designed the balkanisation of Yugoslavia is already on the case as envoy for Pakistan and Afghanistan.

    What we see and read is not always true picture behind the scenes.

  • Comment number 58.

    well said Mr.Pkkmres, each and everyword you have said is correct. People from India Pakistan always want to fight they never look into the history of the world wars. If you have a tooth decay you will feel the pain, u will be angry with the dentist for the pain he is causing, but once you get rid of the tooth you will feel lot better, you know it is not good but you are afraid to sit on the dentists chair. Somehow or other pakistan is now getting rid of the decay, I belive it will be a lot peaceful and prosperous country in the near future.

    Let the pakistanis feel TTP is a product of India then they will get rid of it with more vengance and the end result we all need is destroying the terror infrastructure, let them do it on the name of India. Atleast this enemity towards us will make them a peaceful country with out the weekly friday blasts. I would also like to see the next step of operations in the Indian borders dismantling terrorists causing trouble to India.

  • Comment number 59.

    While reading this plethora of comments, why its so easy to make out that the comment is from a Pakistani? Simply because most of them have been fed with a basic education so twisted and opinionated that by the time they graduate, they have simply can't differentiate lie from a truth. If Pakistani Army and their "independent media" only speaks what they already know, only helps to consolidate that they are right all along.

    Why Pakistanis fail to realize that this FRANKENSTEIN in the name of TALEBANS is their own creation is simply because its highly uncomfortable truth to digest that their own armymen are killing the ones they used to train (and eat, drink and be marry!). So as to make it sound logical, "Talebans are Indian/Israeli agents" army is doing right thing by killing them.

    They are so used to runaway "facts" made by their teachers and leaders they think its okay to do so themselves. I would be curious to find the sources of the commensts like

    "Its economy has been growing aggressively with rate only behind China for one year in last decade"

    Did you know that few months back Mr Zardari did not have enough money to pay salaries for government employees?

    "DID any one heard something like this before the American forces came into Afghanistan?"

    Yes, the west did not hear about terrorist activities of Pakistan till 9/11 happened. I would call it "Pearl Harbour" of terrorism. The whole world was feeling the heat of terrorism whose epicentre was PAKISTAN. But chose to ignore it because it did not affect western powers till 9/11 (then 7/7 etc.). Why any terror attack in the world has Pakistani connection speaks a lot about "terrorist country" tag.

    "American admit by themselves that they had put Pakistan in trouble since they are there."

    When did American do so? and why would they say so. In public and private, their version is very unambiguous, that Pakistan does not recognize that who is its real enemy!!!!

    "Lets come to end , if Pakistan keeps on fighting militancy , and the countries which are secretly nourishing Taliban continue their activities, so this Menace will grow, Americans and Nato would lost in Afghan and their is not going to be peace in India or in the region or the whole world"

    does it make any sense to anybody. A clear example of confusion!

    "It is irreponsible to assume that the Taliban can easily gain access to Pakistan's nuclear weapons"

    Then how come it was so easy to distribute the technology to Iran, NK and Libya. And do you really think that it was only and only AQKhan who was responsible. If yes, then, see how easy that is to lose the security and if no, then why has Musharraf lied to everybody?

    "Who has opened 16 Consulates in Eastern Afghanistan, ostensibly for promoting commercial interests?"

    Why the numbers keep changing and what is the source?

    "American Commandoes can over run our 170 million population and 7 hundred thousand strong army and take over our nuclear sites is unrealistic"
    If the Pakistani army is so strong then why did Pakistan lost SWAT to begin with and allowed shariah law. Talking about that, can any sensible Pakistani tell me that how come an Indian/US/Israeli funded Taleban is so much hung up on Shariah, a concept championed by General Zia ul Haque?
    If Pakistan has no law and order problem, then why the President has to approach the UN and Scotland Yard to investigate death of her beloved wife? Can he not trust his own men?

    Any solution of a problem begins with admission of one. Till you don't, its not going to resolve. Your men are getting killed over there on both sides, you have to be honest with yourself...

  • Comment number 60.


    Saudi is also a rich country. I don't think world has a positive opinion about them. "Sure we want their oil but we dislike their culture" is the common response.


    Pakistani media is quite independent. Read Dawn, it is more mature than some Indian and Western media outlets. The sad part is that many(probably majority) Pakistanis contradict Dawn. Dawn clearly identifies the problem saying that TTP was solely creation of/maintained by ISI/PAK. Dawn also says that Baloch is fired up by India and both these are correct. Dawn also believes 9/11 was bin Laden's job and I do not think majority Pakistanis buy that. Dawn also says that Sufism is the right spiritual way for Pakistan and it is lost on many Pakistanis due to their indoctrination in schools as well as madrassas. Again read their social studies text books and one can see all the hate. No wonder Pakistan is the biggest consumer of conspiracy theories.

  • Comment number 61.

    Now the West; Samuel Huntington has predicted that the clash between Islamic civilization and the Western civilization is imminent. By hosting bin Laden &co Pakistanis/Afghans have started this war/clash.

    So I see this as a clash btwn Islamic civilization and the West civilization. Hindu civilization is a spectator more or less. So is the Cinic civiization(China). The great Professor Huntington is gone but his analysis still applies.

    It will interesting to see if the West can achieve oil independence at which point the War between the West and Islam becomes one sided. However, Islam has another weapon up its sleeve. Its uncontrolled population growth. Pak has approx 4 children/women and the number across the Islamic world is similar. This is one cause for so much violence in the Islamic world. Too many people and too few resources. This is unstable population growth.

    The Islamic population in the West also has been growing which is currently a concern for Europe and the US(read about 9/11, 7/7, van Gough, cartoons, French riots etc). So West has technology and economy on its side, while Islam has population on its side.Interesting to see who prevails.

    The Cinic civilization(China) is clever enough to support Islam clandestinely against the West but they are also smart not to have any cultural impact. That is why the relationship between devout theists(muslims) and devout atheists (communist China) is a practical one and each remain wary of other's culture. I wonder how long this lasts. The Chinese are beginning to realize the threat from their western borders from Uighurs(who were training along with al Queda operatives in Tora Bora; source: longwarjournal).

    Will China wake up?

  • Comment number 62.


    Say the nuclear scientist from India (you say his name is Mahalingam) is missing. Do you think he is meeting with bin Laden. Say if he is missing who is to be alarmed? On the other hand Pakistani nuclear scientists have met bin Laden. Gul, former ISI chief openly supports bin Laden (see youtube videos) and there is evidence AQ Khan sold nuke material to NK, Iran and Libya. Similar evidence against any US/Chinese/Israeli/Indian scientist???.

    For people who see a problem with US/Chinese/Israeli nukes: First of all there is no evidence of existence of any rouge elements in any of these countries. More importantly no one is driven by ideological agenda e.g destroy the West/infidels. Bin Laden has such agenda and he met some Pakistani nuke scientists. That is a concern.

  • Comment number 63.

    Did it cross anyone's mind that perhaps USA is not interested in capturing bin Laden? For one reason that what will USA do if they capture him? If he is hanged, then he becomes a martyr in some Islamic countries. He is perhaps the most useful person to USA as long as he is not captured and is kept alive. Bin Laden is the reason for USA to keep their troops in Pakistan and Afghanistan, and thereby keep an eye on Iran and Pakistan (and the Pakistani nukes). My guess is the even if bin Laden dies of natural causes, USA will continue to say he's alive and well ! A weak Pakistan is easy to control and will continue to dance to the tune of America. The Taliban will ensure that Pakistan never becomes a strong nation. I'm sure there are plenty of countries with vested interests in the Taliban. Sounds twisted, but who said politics was ever straight?

  • Comment number 64.


    Of course there are countries with vested interests in Taliban. As long as Taliban remains in Afg it suits Pakistan as "strategic depth". The problem arises with TTP(Pak Taliban) for Pakistan. Recently LWJ reports that even Iran has started supporting Taliban to neutralize US threat.

    But when Taliban govt was established in Kabul there were only 3 countries in the world that recognized them. Pakistan, Saudi and UAE. Each had their own interests. Pakistanis were jubilant for gaining "strategic depth", Saudis were fond of new grounds for hunting(Saudi royal families hunted frequently in Afg when Taliban was ruling) and of course exporting the Wahhabi tradition.

    Of course it is necessary to keep bin Laden alive(at least officially). But it is also costing the US dearly. So if US is sure that al Queda(not just Laden) is terminated they may not feel the threat from Pak nukes.

    Only time will tell the fate of Pak. We sure live in interesting time, or has it always been this interesting.

    For Americans, the state of Pakistan (who supported Taliban, hosts of 9/11 planners) may be emotionally fulfilling response to 9/11. They may have closure now.

  • Comment number 65.

    FYI, Pakistan Air Force has a squadron of JF-17 Thunder fighter planes that are being produced jointly with China. China's PLAAF has in service the J-10 Fierce Dragon that is the most modern locally manufacturing Chinese jet in service.

    It may be noted that there is a difference in ideology and leadership between the Taliban, run by Mullah Omar and the Tehrik e Taliban Pakistan, run by Baitullah Mehsud and manipulated by outside powers.

    Then there is Mossad supported Jundullah in Balochistan with the explicit aim of undermining the federal governments in Baloch areas in both Iran and Pakistan.

  • Comment number 66.


    Production is different from induction into Airforce. US has scrapped many fighters after producing them. I think it's similar case for India. If JF-17 can not perform against F-16 they will lose market, including in China and Pakistan.

    No news on induction yet. Its under evaluation in China and not yet inducted into PAF.

    Looks like the Indians have many indigenous developed(no colloboration, see wiki) aircrafts planned for future. But I do not think neither Indian nor Chinese combat aircrafts can stand up to Western and Russian products.

    Would love to see a direct combat between Western/Russian aircrafts and Chinese/Indian ones. I do not have much faith in the later. May be cost effective but will be inferior to F-16/Mirages or Sukhoys, performance wise.

    Apparently Israel, a tiny nation(backed by US), is producing better aircrafts than the entire East including Muslim, Indians and Chinese.

  • Comment number 67.


    Loose nukes of pak, sometime i really wonder does pak, really have the capability of nuk or still like north korea who got the nuke power but dsnt have tech to deploy it on missile.

    but western countries will always use this as a key point to make any move in this region,

    remember what they said in Iraq, there was no trace of wepeon of mass distruction at all, it was just game over Oil and US wanted the Iraqi Oil to be sold in dollar in international market instead of other currencies which sadam use to exchange oil in international market. the task which father was not able to finish ( senior bush ), so the junior took the over ,,,,

    and talking about India and pak war.
    ha ha

    I remember where i read

    '95% pakistani will join army if there is war against india,
    however only 2% think they can win it'

    I am sure in there hearts and mind each pakistani know who promotes terrorists,

  • Comment number 68.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 69.

    internatinal friends,(feel free to stop by for a Norther Califonian BBQ some time).I read in the one of the posts that when has anyone ever seen a country taken over by a radical minority? Well how about Nazi Germany or Stalins Soviet union, Or well an number of historical people over run by a small well armed group, How about those AZTECS or Myans? No the nuclear Jeanie has been let out of the bottle and it does not matter who we blame when it starts to get used, because all of us who live on this planet will be the ones to suffer, Indian, Pakistani, Hawaiian, African....Get the picture? Its in all worlds interest to see a stable Goverment in every country that has nukes includeing my own.

  • Comment number 70.


    JF-17 is in active service with PAF and J-10 is in active service with PLAAF. FYI Israel does not produce planes.. its produces avionics and electronics as well as weapons. Israel wanted to produce planes but American pressure forced them to scrap the programs.

  • Comment number 71.

    This is coming from an Indian's point of view:
    There are a handful of Militant groups operating against India from Pakistan AS WELL as from within India. There are militant groups such as Babar Khalsa International (BKI), and United Liberation Front Army (ULFA) operating from within India, which are allegedly getting funded by Pakistan's ISI. Recently a Bangladeshi minister (retired) claimed that Bangladesh had come across evidence (atleast in the past) that Pakistan's ISI has been funding ULFA through Bangladeshi soil.
    I'm sure you guys know what Laskhar E Toiba is; it is a terrorist group operating from Pakistan against India, and is responsible for the Mumbai Attacks last year. Recently, one of its top leaders (a Pakistani citizen) was found in India. His Job was to brainwash & recruit other Indian Muslims into working with them.
    BKI members also travel to Pakistan to get their weapons to attack India.
    SO the fact is that, Pakistan has often indulged in creating and funding terrorism in India to keep an upper hand on India. It did so, because India's military is seen to be more superior than Pakistan's, and so terrorism was the tactic used by Pakistan to attack India.
    This was the case until atleast 2001 or 2002, when the USA warned Pakistan to stop funding Taliban and other militants.
    It is important to remember that Pakistan used the same Taliban to keep Afghanistan at it's knees. The reason for this is that Afghanistan often disputed the Durrand Line which divides Pakistan and Afghanistan. Afghanistan claims NWFP to be a part of it's country. Hence Pakistan funded the Taliban to take over the Afghan gov't and create its own government, which would then be Pro-Pakistan.
    India always had naturally good relations with Afghanistan (due to historical reasons), however after the Taliban takeover, India refused to takl to the Taliban. In 1999, Pakistani militants hijacked an Indian Airlines plane from Nepal and took it to Kandahar (Afghanistan). This plane was then guarded by the Taliban to ensure that the Indian army cannot get to it. This further shows how the Taliban and Pakistani militants had a nexus to work against India.
    So now, fellow Pakistanis, why would India support taliban, a monster which YOU created?
    I'd like to remind you guys again that before Benazir Bhutto died, she admitted that Pakistan had supported Khalistani militants (such as BKI) against India. I'd also like to remind you how the previous Bhutto President of Pakistan had the plan to "bleed India through a thousand cuts".
    In MY opinion, however, India's RAW MIGHT BE supporting Balochi militants (who want Independence from Pakistan)in order to take Pakistani pressure off of Indian Kashmir & North-east regions.
    So In my opinion, India has many consulates in Afghanistan for 2 reasons: help develop Afghanistan and re-build good relations with the country, AND fund Balochi separatists.
    However, both USA and India deny that India has anything to do with the Balochi's.
    But honestly, guys, if you pakistain's really believe India is funding balochi militants, then stop funding all the militant groups in India, and India will stop too, if it is even doing anything in the first place.
    After all, India has told Pakistan many times to stop funding terrorism in India, and has even asked USA to tell them to stop. However nobody ever listened. Now if India is supporting Balochis to give Paksitan a taste of its own medicine, then I don't blame it.

  • Comment number 72.


    Yeah I know Israel produces avionics and warning systems. That's why I said with US back up, US produces planes.

    Lets see JF-17 in action against F-16/Mirage or even Sukhoys, then we will see the quality. I do not see them standing against any Western/Russian planes but lets wait and watch.

  • Comment number 73.


    Actually JF-17 have been expected to be inducted only first quarter of 2009. So unless someone has been monitoring closely or has some inside information how far the induction process is.

    Anyway they have not been in service for 3 months(if they were ever inducted) so lets wait and watch.

  • Comment number 74.


    Countries funding insurgencies in other countries(enemies) is fairly common foreign policy. So not much to complain about that since it is almost impossible to establish the fiscal connection back to the source.

    So India supporting Balochs(if they are) and Paks supporting ULFA are fine since it is hard to establish them.

    Pakistan crossed the line with India and US. With India it has sent its own citizens(or the citizens crossed by themselves) to wage war inside Indian territory (Kasab case in point). It has supported Taliban who hosted 9/11 planners thus doing similar but an indirect crime against US as well. It can be established that Pak backed Taliban and Taliban hosted bin Laden.

    US has been very kind to Pakistan so far. US can not do much until Pak officially declares war on US.

  • Comment number 75.

    everybody seems to be trying to prove their point of view.and I have noticed tht non-pakistanis are simply not happy with pakistan possessing nukes.why is that so?I firmly blame USA and western countries for all the mess in the world.If only America and our western "friends" help us rather than dictate us, we can win this war against taliban.I am not in favour of Taliban, but let us not forget that it was American politicians who "created" them and now they want to get rid of them. and for that, they would use every territory on earth but their own.There should not be any fears or doubts about the security and safety of Pakistani nukes. We have lived for 6 decades with enemies all around us.and we have performed well if not the best.and i am confident that we will grow in to much stronger nation.
    And secondly, i do not understand that why everyone is so much after our nukes?why doesnt America reduce the level of its nukes to minimum. what is it afraid of? Does America require 1000s of hydrogen or nuclear bombs to safeguard itself or Israel?So instead of teaching others, they should learn the lessons and apply on themselves. And they should not be convincing others for not to use nukes as america is the only country with the legacy of using them!!!

  • Comment number 76.


    (Guerrilla vs Counter-Insurgency Warfare)

    GUERRILLA WARFARE: The reason that the (AIE) American Israeli Empire will lose in their (Af-Pak) war, do to a total and complete misunderstand, of the difference between Guerrilla and Counter-Insurgency War, and what they really are. A Guerrilla War is a war fought by peoples of different cultures, and the culture which does not have the superior military force, is forced the use the TACTICS of Guerrilla Warfare, hit and run, small force operations against superior forces, having time and those of their culture to support them in their operations against the uncommon culture.

    Can a Guerrilla War be won, and the answer is YES! By the use of Over-Whelming Force, mixed with Genocide and Forced Assimilation, or placing the indigenous population upon (interment camps/reservations) or it to flee into other lands (Canada for the Native Americans of North Amreica, and Europe for the Muslim Culture) , this is the type of operation that was used against the Native American Cultures of the Western Hemisphere. Basically, it is we are the Borg resistance is futile, surrender and prepare to be assimilated, terminated, or placed into large interment camps, reservations. It is the total replacement of one culture by another culture.

    Think of it as what it is a Clash of Cultures, Lets use (Negros, Black, Afro-American, whatever the new or past politically correct term for the race vs White Anglo-Saxon, whatever) as an example. In fact South Africa, would be a very good example. They would view the (White) forces as a black person in South Africa as comical, something out of a movie. Unreal!! Saying to themselves, So you want me to dance, smile , shovel my feet , show my white teeth and do a "stepping fech it" for you (White) forces loons? I know how you people are around the dinner table when no body's listening (And they would be correct, and it works both ways). Ask any Black man, being seen as guilty (Possible Guerrilla) as (White) forces are always quick to point the Black man as the enemy, and they would be correct, one culture is going to defend its existence against that of another. Other cultures can be used as examples but it amounts to the same idea.


    INSURGENCY WARFARE: is fought between those of a common culture, it is Civil War, and the same tactics as those used in a Guerrilla War are applied, but in this instance both side have an equal opportunity to enlist the aide of the culture in which they exist, as they both are products of that culture.

    Batista has (3K) Three-thousand, men in the field against us. It is a battle against time, and time is on our side. They never know where we are, but we always know where they are. (Source: Fidel Castro, February 24, 1957).

    Living high up on a cliff monastery, surrounded by hostile armies in command of all the roads, Mao was compelled to revise all his thinking on revolutionary tactics and strategy. He had commanded small (INSURGENT UNITS USING) guerrilla battles where his own troops possessed swift mobility. And suffered dreadful losses. His next step was to acquire the good will of (THOSE OF THE SAME CULTURE) the villagers on the plains, the second was to employ them as his intelligence staff, and the third was to invite the provincial armies to attack, so that he could replenish his diminishing supply of ammunition, He said later that there was not a single machine gun among his troops at the beginning.They were successful because they knew their terrain better, because they (INSURGENTS) were trained for guerrilla warfare, and because they observed all the classic tenants of guerrilla warfare without ever forgetting their main objective: loot, elbowroom, secure footholds. (Source: Robert Payne, Mao Tse-tung (1969).

    In a classic clash between culture Guerrilla War, hearts and mind will never ever be won, it is seem for what it is by the culture fighting against assimilation, it is their extinction, but in an Insurgency War, it is simply a matter of choosing sides in what is a civil war within the same culture, for power, and you select which side is the best to be with. This is a War for Resources and Markets, (Blood for Oil) on the part of the (AIE) Military Industrial Complex and the Islamic Culture stands in the way, it could just as well be over Gold, or Land as it was in the Western Hemisphere, were the Native America stood in the way and was simple dealt with using Genocide, Assimilation, forced to flee and not allowed to return, and Reservations, Oil is the new Gold.

  • Comment number 77.

    I doubt very much that anyone will get down this far with all of the other comments that have been made so far. Some of those above-mentioned comments are very astute others not so much.
    However I would like to propose a different way of looking at this problem in Pakistan if you folks will bear with me. The recent news that the US is now to build one of its large and technically most sophisticated embassies in Pakistan (this is going to rival in cost the one in Baghdad-close 700 million US dollars before the inevitable cost over-runs) should perhaps give us a clue to the United States intentions. As someone of Pakistani descent I understand our preoccupation with our own sense of self importance but from the perspective of the USA strategic interests it is seeing the emergence of two new challengers to its supremacy as a super power. With apologies to the UK,France,Germany and even the USSR the two countries that will probably preoccupy the USA's thinking over the next couple of decades are China and India. Using a mixture of carrot and stick the US will try to work with those two countries (the nuclear deal with India and the trade embargo rumblings with China regarding steel being the two most visible manifestations). Looking at it in this context it makes sense to have your 'monitoring station' in a location close to both countries and if that country has nuclear weapons that can be controlled directly or indirectly by the USA that makes it even more appealing. The Iranian attempts at nuclear weapons seen in this context are thus perceived as more of a threat to US strategic interests than the one posed by N. Korea. As Israel has its own strategic interests at heart that may not align completely with the US; Baghdad and Islamabad give the US a very strong presence in the Middle East and in the Sino-Indian region.
    As for the rest it is all 'collateral damage'.
    Just food for thought...

  • Comment number 78.

    There is so much economic potential between Iran, Pakistan, India and China that it does not make any sense that why these nations especially India and Pakistan are waging this cold war. During Gen Musharaf's time, some serious head way was done to build economic bridges. I am a Pakistani and when I visited India, seldom have I experienced such hospitality. We would do the same thing with Indians. There must be some seriously potent forces making sure that both these countries continue to fight.

    Pakistanis have never been allowed to establish a writ of law because of external influences. For example. Ms. Benazir Bhutto was being brought form her exile by US to run for a 3rd term, which is unconstitutional. Same for Mr. Nawaz Sharif, being supported by Saudis.

    For the first time, a group of people stood up against an un-constitutional order and were successful. I hope that such movements continue. But, I am not sure a full fledge revolution would come. The forces that run Pakistan would not do well with common man out in the streets. The people that would be most effected are the land lords and the army. These people are heavily funded by super powers and would easily crush any such movement.

    If India, pakistan and other countries of this region were left alone to sort out their differences, things may be different. As far as Pakistani Nukes are concerned, I am confident that no matter how bad the government may be, they would never loose control over them. The army generals would loose their sponsorship from USA and UK.

    It is interesting that at ground level, the issue of Nukes is fartherest from the common man's mind. They are just too busy trying to survive. I can however say that, anti Taliban sentiments are gaining momentum.

  • Comment number 79.

    "There is so much economic potential between Iran, Pakistan, India and China that it does not make any sense that why these nations especially India and Pakistan are waging this cold war"

    Your statement is true, but why should developed nations want India and Pakistan to be in peace? Heaven forbid... who will they sell their weapons to if nations come to peace? Developed nations maintain their positions of power by creating war and instability amongst other nations (sounds familiar? the British policy of divide and rule), whereby they can sell their weapons to them and dictate their terms to them re: trade and so on. Precious funds in developing countries are also diverted towards purchase of weapons instead of towards progress.... so they remain "developing" for ever and the developed maintain their positions of power. There is finite amount of wealth in the world and if there is peace in the world, developed nations will be reduced to the same level as 3rd world countries. I'd rather that countries like India and Pakistan keep fighting, so that I can continue to enjoy my standard of living in the west. There must be some validity in my theory since I earn in one day what my brother-in-law in Pakistan doesn't earn in a month doing the same job... how else do you account for this disparity? Over 99% of "aid" to Pakistan from USA has gone to the army and for weapons... hardly any has gone to social development in the country (Aid is not same as charity... this money has to be paid back with interest). QED.

  • Comment number 80.

    A very nicely written article, but Pakistan politicians and army are too clever for the western powers.

    Pak Army is camouflaged into two sided canon, if required it can fire on friends & foe to protect its nukes, therefore no estate should plot against Pakistan.

    Genuine International concerns of Nuke safety is a legitimate concern which we respect.

  • Comment number 81.


    A nice and balanced thought! It might sound far fetching to some but I feel it might just be true! If I consider it seriously, its simply because history tells us that all US policies are based on THEIR self interest and NOT on some high moral ground to help the mankind. If Pakistan has been used (and abused) in this process, its simply because its priorities are SO misplaced. Rather than improving the lot of its people and giving them a descent minimum governance, she has allowed to play into conspiracy theories of "India-enemy no 1". So long as military would rule Pakistan and corrupt officers act as an example of integrity to defunct society, things are going to get worse....


    "We have lived for 6 decades with enemies all around us.and we have performed well if not the best"

    What performance are you talking about? If you have managed to annoy all your neighbours and created enemy out of them, is this a good performance? If you have been openly aggressive against India by attacking them five times in the name of self-defence, is this a good performance?

  • Comment number 82.

    With all due respect,I think most of you guys are way out of line talking about anti state elements getting hold of pakistani nukes.On second thoughts no one ever,even of the most mediocre nuclear technolgy,could afford to allow any other country to get hold of its weapons.I'm sure most of you guys would agree that nukes aren't apples on a tree or birds on a mountain,even the current president zardari is not sure where the nuclear weapons are kept,so how do you people think that a bunch of pariah washout idiots,murdering monsters,could get even getse to finding a damn clue about it.

    Nuclear security is designed so that it is effectively protective against any foreign invasion,i'm not sure if the taleban are game enough to launch any assault against nuclear weapons.....they couldn't even protect themselves from being massacred by the pakistan army.only very few of their accomplices and aides remain in pakistan,the extremist talban race is more or less spent,and before long they will be history.The suicide bombings that happen every now and then are because the taleban are getting frustrated in view of the noose tightening aroung their filthy necks.

  • Comment number 83.

    Urban's article doesn't reveal anything new. Such stories, some say conspiracies, have been floating around for a long time now. But lets face the facts, the insurgents are a serious threat to the very soul of the country. We have no clear evidence that they are being supported by external forces but the fact remains that these insurgents are upto no good, wreaking havoc and chaos in the cities of the country on a daily basis now. They're the short term threat that this country faces and it must be removed. About the India fixation and the US and Israel having to do something to take control of Pakistan's nukes, well we don't know if that is a real threat or not. What our politicians should do now is strengthen the institutions of the state and start delivering to the people and deepen our existing relationship with China and consolidate our relationship with the Muslim world. Doing so will counter any threat, if any, from India, the US or Israel or any other country as a matter of fact because having strong state institutions will guarantee the people's support to move ahead collectively to face any major challenge. Last but not least, Pakistan's nukes aren't lying 'loose' as has been implied. There's a strong command and control structure. The general's pretty well know what they're dealing with.

  • Comment number 84.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 85.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 86.

    shabana malik

    india may have old tanks and planes but don't forget india defeated pakistan in 1965 when they had best patton tanks, they were again defeated in 71 with indian gnat planes when pakistan had sabre jets. it is the quality and not quantity that counts in war. only one aircraft carrier was enough for pakistan in 1971. you forgot about kargil war where your so called highly ranked military ran with the tails between their legs. it was good of india that they allowed them to go alive. (in my opinion this was the big mistake similar to handing back the land and military personnel captured in 1971 by indira gandhi)

    coming to china, china may have more planes and tanks but again they will now think twice to attack india as it can be seen that they are making noises but unable to do anythink to the eastern border and specially to arunachal pradesh.

  • Comment number 87.

    I firmly believe that both Pakistan & India has lost many chances to solve the Kashmir dispute but does that means that pakistan can attack on India 3 times in 60 years?? Does that mean Pakistan has the right to send militants to India??Does that mean Pakistan can wage a diplomatic war against India?? Does that mean pakistan can send thousands of people to destablise the neighbouring nation?? Does this war has brought any good for pakistan?? Has it been economicaly beneficial for pakistan?? On pakistan TV they openly call Indians as betrayls & nobody seems to mind those swearing aired on the TV channels. Has India acted aggressively to all these situations? Does pakistan has the courgae to accept India as its neighbour?? Does pakistan has any answer to such questions? These are world known facts i hope someday sanity will prevail in pakistan and they will start respecting India.

  • Comment number 88.

    it is only a way for the americans to justify their military action in the north west of pakistan. to hammer the idea in everyones head that the nukes are not safe when in reality everything with the nukes is much safer than the world trade center ever was.
    As far the indian response is concerned, i do not understand the rationale for dozens of indian consulates on the pakistan border in afghanistan. the truth is that india with a much greater economic and military might is adding fuel to fire by supporting all elements that are destabilizing pakistan. for the posts i read, it is surprising how one sided some peoples views are.

  • Comment number 89.

    The article is a bit out of date and is not supported by some 'solid' evidence. I mean just because Hillary Clinton said something is no criteria for jugding its authencity. We all know what Collin Powel, Donald Rumsfield and George. W. Bush said before jumping to Iraq. The consequences were dire indeed. It is also assumed that there is no screening for people who work for the atomic plants and etc(the list in endless). Nonetheless, it is true that the threat of insurgency is very real, but to draw a conclusion that these insurgents might be able to capture or even use Pakistans Atomeic weapons is comical. Equally comical is the idea of a special seceret force dropping into Pakistan and dismantling the facilities before the weapons fall into the hands of taliban. Pakistan has risked and lost far more than America has on this war on terror. Far more Pakistani civilians have died due to various terrorists acts than total of 9/11 victims and american soldiers put together.
    Now Pakistan is conducting an all out offensive againt the taliban in the NWFP at the cost of millions of Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs). Threre is no doubt that Pakistan, at the present moment is doing its best to eliminate terrorists at great costs. To complain (still) about the countries nuclear assets will be (beyound doubt) counter-productive. Morover, after reading many comments all i've been able to conclude is that people should atleast have some hold of history, espcially the history of India and Pakistan, for example it should be known whether it was Pakistan or India which had developed the atomic weapons first, or whether or not it was imperative that Pakistan developed its own atomic weapons in order not to be sidelined completely.
    As far as A.Q Khan is concerned, he was imprisoned for a about a decade and placed in house arrest at various times. The independent judiciary of Pakistan (which was restored after the departure of Gen. Musharraff) set him free. To doubt this decision is to doubt the judiciary of Pakistan which is saying a lot.(especially after the restoration of the cheif justice of Pakistan). To go against the large majority of People of Pakistan at a point when they are supporting the Operation in NWFP could prove to be a blunder.
    On the whole it should be known that the only reason a poor country like Pakistan was forced to develop an atomic arsenal was to counter India which had taken to bullying Pakistan after she had first conducted the tests. It should be known that while risks are always present in any situation, to wronlgy exagerrate these risks at this critical point while Pakistan is doing its best against the militants is most unwise and uncalled for. Pakistan Army is not a failed institution which consumes more than half the country's budget. Its capabilities should not be underestimated at all costs, especially if the idea of an overnight incursion to dismantle the nuclear plant is concerned. I beleive, that since Pakistan has already developed the weapons, forcing her to give up these weapons is childish if not impossible. With dozens of undisclosed locations harbouring the weapons, India would and should never risk a first attack. The best thing now is to support Pakistan in the operation conducted by the army (which is fully backed by the public) and stop being paranoid as far as its nuclear capabilities are concerned and take Pakistan into confidence. Nothing is to be gained by confronting a nuclear armed state which already is at war with militants and has sucessfully recaptured huge areas which the militants had capture during the past 2 years.

  • Comment number 90.


    "in reality everything with the nukes is much safer than the world trade center ever was. "

    What makes you compare between nukes and WTC? How come WTC needed any security at all? It was a pure business centre. Still the way it was destroyed and countless people lost their lives, speaks a lot about terrorists designs. The only comparison between the two could be that both of them were/are on terrorists wish-list and by making an obvious mention of that, you can't reassure the very people who are worried about the same.

    "truth is that india with a much greater economic and military might is adding fuel to fire by supporting all elements that are destabilizing pakistan"

    Have you ever seen in mirror yourself? What about JKLF, HUJ, JEM, LET, KLF, ULFA ......Kargil, IA kidnapping and now Mumbai terror attacks....the list goes on. Its undestandable to world why India seriously consider the backing behind the terror attacks but its beyond belief to digest the typical response from Pakistani establishment - "these are orchaestrated by Indian establishment itself to malign Pakistan!!!!!!!!" Get a dose of logic mate!

    I don't mean to say India is entirely innocent but do you think after all these efforts of last 6 decades you expect India to sit quiet and bear, that too when you feel its a mighty country!

    "for the posts i read, it is surprising how one sided some peoples views are."

    Include yourself into the list (would have appreciated if these comments were made after a balanced view from yourself)

  • Comment number 91.

    Mark, you say that you didn't run the story, but I'm sure that others have - I heard about this contigency plan in the media a good couple of years ago (probably the Sunday Times, as they seem to carry a lot of interesting defence stories).

    Perhaps this story was from the same source as your's, or perhaps an additional source?

  • Comment number 92.

    well said Ibrahim90

    finally someone from pakistan is talking with more sense and ground realities, just few realities that I would like to add, India did not develop nuclear weapons to bully pakistan, If you know about India's history India waged a war with china in 1965 and have border disputes with china so we need a deterrent against powerful chinese and that is the very reason of India testing the nuclear weapons and why would India test a nuclear weapon in 1974 when it left pakistan broken into two countries in 1971 and made it sign treaties with its own terms and could have easily occupied most of west pakistans terriotory with the huge victory it got in the war. If pakistan feels threatened by this and develops its own weapons thats their concern.

    India also got a no first use of its nuclear weapons, so I dont think pakistan should worry about India, infact it is the over confident Gen.Musharaff that sent intruders into Kargil in 1999 soon after gaining the status of a nuclear nation and threated to use weapons on India first and that is the very reason why India cannot even take a small lapse in the security of your weapons, even the same statement of Musharaff has been reitirated by Zardari recently. India will not interfere into your internal affairs as long as if there is a stable institution controlling your weapons. No one knows when the army will take over and who will be the incharge tomorrow, Zardari is afraid of leaving the country anticipating a coup. I do accept the military is the only instituion with some credibility in pakistan. I would also like to see pakistan's democracy getting stronger so that the decisons can be taken by the leaders who the people vote and not by the military who finds a reason to fight and establish their rule and make the peope listen to their words. For now acting on taliban is the best thing pakistan can do even if it is considered to be suicidal, we should thank pakistans military for taking a U turn on the people whom they created rather than staging a coup on Zardari to reinstate the military rule.

  • Comment number 93.

    Dr. A.Q Khan might have ideological and business motives to sell nuclear weapons but no doubt that Pakistan army(ISI in real sense) is the key player of all these dirty games. Its quite funny for a common country man that first we spend money to develop bombs to apparently "secure" ourselves and then we need extra funds to "secure" these bombs. As for US is concerned it always supports Pakistani army for its vested interests to knock down political process and thanks to this that today we are better known as "Islamic militant" than Z.A. Bhutto's social and democratic Pakistan. So "who" is securing "what" is yet unknown. We have to correct our political and moral strategies to make the world safer than "building and then securing weapons" as we can't engrave names of their possible target but we can win hearts and minds by providing justice and needs of life to the people

  • Comment number 94.

    Pakistani in general are fed with lotz of conspiracy BS by their media, govt, education institutions and Mullahs. Most of them believe that "India, Israel, US, West" are conspiring to break them apart. But its their people who conspired 9/11, London Tube, Kargil War, Spain Train Bombings, Afghanisthan Embassy attacks to name a few. Also Pakistan is major drug transit point. I guess decades of brain washing has resulted in the "Shizophrenia en Mass".

    Its time that US ensures the aid goes to set up schools & give them scientific education and not militant mullah education.

  • Comment number 95.

    A proud Pakistani now living in the UK.

    Whoa everybody.All us Indians and Pakistanis are fighting with each other AGAIN! What is wrong with all of us? We are both such compulsive people that when we go off on one we get completely paranoid and lose all sense of reasoning!
    The Indians are blaming the Pakistanis and vice versa. How are we, the common man, qualified to pass judgement on each other. We are blaming each other of listening to and believing all the crap fed to us since "birth", by the media and by our governments, yet that is exactly what all of us are doing.
    How are we different to all the uneducated, easily led, fanatical people that both our beautiful country`s unfortunately have as a majority.
    I have visited India on quite a few occasions in my youth on cricket tours when I played as a professional and found the people really great and brotherly even though we are supposed to be arch "enemies".
    I have had loads of people visiting Karachi on cricket tours and others and we have conveyed the same feelings to them.
    the common educated people have no problems with each other and see and feel no difference between the 2 nations that once, no so long ago, were the same nation.
    If we were still the same united nation, or 2 very friendly united nations can we all just for a minute imagine what a problem we would cause to the rest of the world? This "problem" I mention is not to do with terorism but to do with the economical, self sufficient, industrial super power the 2 nations would become without any help required from the western world.
    If other see my point, that is where the problem lies. other countries do not want that to ever happen. The sub continent has been a strategic location on the world map and has been the centre of attraction for centuries. A de-stabilised India and Pakistan is a great idea for the west. Better even if everyone was to believe that Pakistan had a major hand in the security issues in India and India in Pakistan.
    We need to stop blaming each other and worry about sorting our own countries out. Once that is done, then hand in hand the sub-continent can once again become a major player in the world!
    Unfortunately, I dont think that is going to happen in the near future. If this is the way we react to each other then I dont think this is going to happen in the distant furture either.
    What a pity!

  • Comment number 96.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 97.

    I was frustrated and deeply sad when i saw the comments of peoples on this site.The discussion was regarding "whether Pakistani nukes are safe"

    But we ( Indians/Pakistanis ) start fighting.

    These britishers will laugh at us, they will think that "We divided them 60 yrs before, and still they are at the same stage only",

    really shame for both the coutries....

  • Comment number 98.


    i agree with most of what you have said, especially, the Musharraff and Kargil part. I read a book "Witness to Blunder" by Col (r) Ashfaq Hussain which gives a detailed study of the Kargil fiasco and how a few "adventurous" generals such as general Musharraff ventured across Loc (line of control)without informing the democratic elected P.M. But things have changed and a reoccurance is out of the question. Moreover, as far as your reasoning of 'why India developed the nuclear weapons first?' is concerned i confess that i am a bit doubtfull. On one hand it makes perfect sense that it was 'meant' as deterent for china and not for bullying Pakistan. But let me humbly remind you that wasn't it Mr. A. B. Vagpee of the BJP who used to intimidate Pakistan by giving statements such as (humaray pass burra bomb hai)? etc which obviously means (we have the BIG bomb). I think there remains little doubt as to why Pakistan was 'concerned' and strived to became a nuclear power at a great cost.

    And i repeat for all the other readers that this Pakistan bashing on the basis of a far fetched assumption supported by almost no solid evidence is counter-productive, and uncalled for, especially at this critical moment. Pakistan needs the support of the world at this point especially as the number of (IDPs) Internally Displaced Persons increases due to the ongoing operatoin to root out the Taliban leadership. Let us join hands and be one against this menace!

  • Comment number 99.

    The idea that all members of the Pakistani Military would agree to hand over their Nuclear Weapons is probmatic to say the least!

    Chances are that some elements would spirit away some of the Nukes, even fight US forces sent to get them!

    After all would India, Israel or for that matter any of the "Great Powers"hand -over the Nuclear Deterrant without demur?

    In fact any attempt, might lead to the very awful prospect the plan was set in motion to prevent, Islamic Terrorists groups getting hold of the Bomb!

  • Comment number 100.

    Isn't it highly likely that the USA, Russia, China, and who knows who else, rehearse all sorts of contingency plans/scenarios? What matters isn't whether they have plans, but whether any of them ever implement them, and one only ever knows that after the event if they are doing their job. Please stick to news of what happens. The rest is, as you say, the province of novelists and Hollywood/TV drama script writers, and you know it.


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