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Wednesday 10 August 2011

Verity Murphy | 12:04 UK time, Wednesday, 10 August 2011

David Cameron said this morning that parts of Britain are not just broken but "sick". Tonight we will discuss whether he is right and if so what the medicine should be with Conservative co-chair Baroness Warsi and Hackney MP Diane Abbott.

We will have the latest on the unrest in the West Midlands from Liz MacKean and what is happening in Manchester from Anna Adams.

We will also be reporting on vigilante activity and will be examining what role gang culture has played in the disorder.

Please note the programme will be an hour long tonight.


  • Comment number 1.

    Cameron blames “sick society.” He speaks a truer word than he knows.

    Many of the underclass are pathetic inadequates who lack both the intelligence and the strength of character to work out for themselves what standards they are going to live by and then stick to them. So they follow the most easily accessible ready-made examples, and get their standards from them.

    They read the gossip columns in the tabloids, where they see celebs screwing around and changing their partners almost as frequently as you or I might change our clothes. So they do likewise, and we get family breakdown on a huge scale.

    They see reports of other celebs, sons and daughters of the aristocracy and other gilded youth regularly getting coked up to the eyeballs and not being arrested. So they see nothing wrong in doing drugs; all sorts of drugs, from comparatively innocent stuff like weed to really nasty stuff like smack.

    They see politicians caught on the fiddle and downright indignant that they might have to give some of it back. So they see nothing wrong in fiddling all they can.

    They see speculators indulging in hugely irresponsible smash-and-grab behaviour, wrecking whole sectors of the economy, then, far from being punished, being rewarded with huge bonuses. So they see nothing wrong in indulging in a bit of smash-and-grab themselves. I’m only surprised it has taken so long for this to happen.

    Feral elite, feral underclass. And a shrinking sector of honest decent folk in the middle wondering why we bother to be honest and decent, because quite frankly, it has very few real rewards. There’s the personal sense of self-worth that comes from trying to live with integrity, which is nice, but apart from that there seems to be less and less point in it every year. This isn’t the country I grew up in, and it hasn’t felt like it for many years now.

  • Comment number 2.

    is 1 xtra helping by pumping out the 'boom boom in yer face' gangsta 'music'?

  • Comment number 3.


    I think you said it all there and extremely well put I might add.

    No short term fixes available, the negative forces have been allowed to build up over time, papered over by the relative debt fuelled affluence of the last 15 years, it has a huge amount of momentum behind it now.

    The dynamic which kept a lid on it for so long (debt fuelled growth) has now gone into reverse. It is now at the point where living on benefits on an estate is probably no better a lifestyle than being in jail.. at least they have 3 meals a day, TV, a warm bed and a games console guaranteed in jail. The amount they get on beneits no longer provides that and will be further eroded by inflation going forward.

    What have they got to lose?

    So, we will have 100,000 maybe a million plus people who feel they would be no worse off in jail than the way they live now and plenty of human rights legislation and sucessful test cases to protect that comfy jail minimum societal entitlement.

    It is, of course, all symptomatic of the economic decline, we have to, adjust to much lower standards of living if we are to have any chance of paying off debts and having a balanced economy.

    My guess is that we will need to be at a level similar to eastern europe in terms of living standards.

    The minimum living standard is set by jail in a society, that is where it has to start, we have to put up a load of cheap, nasty, uncomfortable miserable jails where inmates have to work in some manual capacity (if the EU human rights commision will let us) to re-set the idea of entitlement and minimum living standards.

    We need to do it now before the lower middle classes, through tax rises and inflation also start to think they are better off in jail than working to keep warm and feed themselves.

    The current leadership are hopelessly out of their depth, being only qualified to 'keep people quiet' while quietly slipping through policies which increase the power of corporations and banking.

    It is an unholy mess.

    You can see it on the faces of the police as well, they too are captured on CCTV and have had too many sucessful investigations against them for them to go wading in with batons and pepper spray..... they could end up in jail.

    Most people who post on here saw this, or something similar, coming years ago, but nobody listened. The people who post on here could probably come up with the answers as well but we did not go to the right schools, we did not join a political party as a career move, we dont have the right circle of friends to get us installed in a prestigious 'policy think tank' , even if we did our views would not get any media coverage or we would be thrown out as delinquents for not towing the kleptocratic line.

    We need genuine leadership, but the system is now set up specifically to prevent that ever coming to the fore, it does not have away through.

  • Comment number 4.

    @1 Do they lack intelligence? That's an extremely sweeping statement. In my (considerable) experience, many people from what might be considered an 'underclass' can, given the breaks, some structure in their lives, and the right encouragement, achieve remarkable things. I live in the community in which I used to teach and I regularly see living proof of this.

    My Ukrainian great-grandparents were born into serfdom, and brought up in extreme poverty. Yet their son, my grandfather, became a doctor after the Russian revolution.

    Whilst the upper classes in Britain despised "trade" and any thought of earning their living, the non-conformist poor like Geordie George Stephenson created the Industrial Revolution. Write people off at your peril!

  • Comment number 5.

  • Comment number 6.

    My take on last nights 'Newsnight' and in the BBC in general during the current crisis.
    After all, I don't pay for SKY News which the BBC 24 hour news increasingly and unwisely, emulates.

    I'd like to think that Gavin Essler was just pretending to have an inadequate grasp of the socioeconomic problems of this country, when he had Harriet Harmon and Michael Gove on his programme last night. I presume he did this to sting the usual placid Gove into a 'red blooded' response. If this was the intention, he was successful, and the result was good to see. I'll send Mr.Gove my congratulations. On the other hand however, I'll withhold them from Gavin, as he chaired a very poor programme at the end of a week when law and order is undermined in this country, when we are dishonoured on the world stage and after which we'll be inviting policing advice from the LAPD. I expect rather more of well moneyed ''Anchormen''. It would seem you should bring Paxo back from holiday in the same way all your news commentators were calling back our politicians with some high dudgeon. Or at least Kirsty Wark, who does a good job on less money, I presume.

    If the BBC fails to rise to the challenge that this week presents, believe me, it WILL be remembered. After all, many of you were on strike just the other week.

    Tell you what: I'll do Esslers job for a tenth of his salary.

    Amongst many other failings, Essler seemed not to notice Harriet Harmon giving excuses to the rioters like the 'withdrawal' of EMA etc. EMA was always just a bribe and filled the colleges with inadequte students of no interest and of much distraction to other, better, students (I was one). I really wish the BBC rose to the challenge and siphoned its ideological head out, otherwise they will have to find room in the local gaols for another class of prisoner: the disgusted non-license fee paying middle aged.

    You need to stay connected to the REAL social trends: drop your ideological bias, and your anchormen their apparent attention spans. Personally, I'll remember the site of the wee lass with her stock of baby clothes either stolen or dumped in the street outside her shop. There's many images like that to choose from and none of them do this country any honour. Nor you, as the BBC is part of the problem and you have to accept that fact.

    I fully expect the UK economy to be ex-growth for some time after this, and YOU'RE NOT helping.

  • Comment number 7.

  • Comment number 8.

    Until those who have been arrested/identified have been profiled /interviewed - perhaps we should not rush to judgement on those who don't care and/or don't know any better.

    This is not just criminality - this is surely a mass protest by those taking part - & many knew that they would be caught and brought to justice - but they still carried on regardless in front of many cameras.

    The question is what kind of protest and why? - Is this ... 'Soon to become a notorious criminal celebrity - Get me out of here' syndrome?

    This is a complex set of problems requiring deep analysis.

    How much of this inspired by 'Anarchist Cuts Protest' violence and/or politically motivated?

    This is a protest by those who are on the margins of society - who feel & are disconnected - they do not fear the police, law or consequences - most ofhem enjoy what they are doing & will do it again when released.

    This is a forerunner of the anarchy to come in the future IMO - total global anarchy - an 'anti-moral society'!

    Cheers! Sleep well - no nightmares (yet)

  • Comment number 9.

  • Comment number 10.

  • Comment number 11.

    'We will look at the challenge'

    Will it be using the special rose-tinted telescope and from the unique end our new media seem to favour? Plus other tricks of the trade?

    6. At 15:50 10th Aug 2011, SirGuyofGisborne - I expect rather more of well moneyed ''Anchormen''.

    Ah, 'market rate talent' doesn't come cheap, especially when what the market seems to rate is a rather unique way of interpreting events.

    So when one of the tribe ends up floundering it's only polite to either lob a lifeline or fend off those who sense blood in the water. Professional courtesy, if uni-directional.

    There is much debate about tomorrow's QT special. Given its now entrenched reputation, it will be fascinating to discover how the 'panel' and 'audience' got selected in record time to represent what 'we' are thinking.

    One suspects most that qualify to have a voice are either battening down hatches or sweeping up. So the 'B' teams then.

    About par for the course.

  • Comment number 12.

    #4 Sasha Clarkson wrote:

    "@1 Do they lack intelligence? That's an extremely sweeping statement. In my (considerable) experience, many people from what might be considered an 'underclass' can, given the breaks, some structure in their lives, and the right encouragement, achieve remarkable things....Write people off at your peril!"


    Here's someone who may beg to differ...

    Globalist Launch UK Race Wars Using Zombie/Braindead Youth

  • Comment number 13.

  • Comment number 14.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 15.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 16.

    Listen very carefully to what this Jewish man says (as it explains the root cause behind our societal breakdown).

    Henry Makow – Zionism & Multiculturalism

  • Comment number 17.

    What in redacted name’s going on?

    Two good programmes in a row! ...... Wow! (American readers substitute .... Awesome!)

    Is Big G moving up the ranks! Query ‘Top G.. (un)’ an achievable aspiration? Carry on like this and maybe - just maybe .... Don’t get too excited - the audience figures will rise! Might even be a case of ‘Shoot for the moon, and reach the stars!’ (Just remember though that IMO you’ve got a better chance of ‘launch’ if you leave some of the ‘baggage’ behind! i.e. the luvvies, the laureates, the loonies and the limp(ets)! )

    What appealed?

    The focus!

    Big G was right to let the foolish put the noose around their necks although it isn’t that likely that Deity will let his apparitional olympic runner go very far from the main event as someone has to do the thinking (However dysfunctional.)! Doh! As for her own man; distinct failure to get the message across .... as per usual. (Maybe with the ‘no longer imposed’ shadow cabinet idea she’ll be part of a history? Yippee! ) Both concepts from her were valid but .... And the speedy athlete losing the plot didn’t help her one bit! Maybe he needs a routine urine test because if he keeps going off at this speed he may well find himself reaching the end of the pier?

    Interesting to hear one of the guests pass negative comment on the Corporation’s editorial ‘practices’ ..... A text to the Beeb yesterday asking them to review the commentary on the ‘internet sensation’ footage of the mugging of the injured youngster i.e. the interpretation of the actions of the black guy were IMO seriously flawed, failed to achieve either a response or a modification. And today we get ‘the murder’ of three people even before charges are brought!

    Mr New Age Whittington get’s cornered and voices ‘non- government policy’ Yup! He deffo sees himself resident in No 10! Perhaps with a little luck putting his travel miles before his capitol will come back to haunt him? (Just what did he do with that broom? Preparing to hand it to his Housekeeper perhaps?)

    Mr Cameron is back with profoundly PR commentary. Not entirely sure whether the better option is ‘feeling safe’ or ‘sitting down’ ....

    Redacted ...... 374 ....... Succinct, succinct!

    Not gonna make it, man!

    Lots of questions - good ones from SC, RB, MH et al - as to answers.....

    Try this possible solution....


  • Comment number 18.

    Was this - (Video shows police beating suspect... er, maybe) - the one you meant when you wrote this:

    If so, I am a bit concerned at news being put up on the national broadcast system on this 'unique' basis: 'The BBC cannot verify when this footage was taken, nor the context leading up to the events.'

    If this is the 'new era' of new media reporting, you can stick it.

  • Comment number 19.

    Re ITV's London Tonight at 6:00 tonight and main News at 6:30

    Did anyone else notice...

    When ITV reported on groups of white men out in Enfield last night protecting their community against looters/rioters they were reported as 'white vigilantes'.

    but... when reporting on 3 killed asians protecting their community, they were described as 'brave community defenders'.

    This is PC at it's worst.

    Who were the the original proponents of PC?

    Who gains most from it?

  • Comment number 20.

    Listened to our fearless leader today taking the opportunity to link the situation to welfare reform, never misses a trick does he...Were all these people on welfare? I don't know, does he?
    Also talk now about 'taking their council houses off of them', and banning 'them' from claiming benefit.
    Is it me or do they sound worried? I wonder how close we really came to the wheels falling off the state machine?
    They're certainly coming down like the proverbial ton of bricks.

    They were never this tough on the bankers were they? Funny that...

  • Comment number 21.

    Blaming the parents:

    An MP whinges about expenses:

    Re the "Rivers Of Blood" speech. A significant part of the first wave of "new commonwealth" immigration was facilitated by Enoch Powell as Minister of Health.

    His speech de-facto incited and caused racial attacks - and he partially invented some of the alleged "facts" in it.

  • Comment number 22.

    What is right and wrong now, was right and wrong 40-odd years ago - but is no longer taught.

    The manifestation of honesty, courtesy and respect for others is the same, now, as it has ever been - but is rarely taught.

    Hard work can still provide you with what you need - although benefits can get what you want, too.

    Self-esteem will provide the same rewards, as 40-odd years ago - provided you haven't been 'got' by the Left and are now a 'victim'.

    The correct way to rear a child hasn't changed in 40-odd years - evolution has a longer time-span than that.

    The Left should beg for forgiveness, but never will.
    "Winston Smith - Working with the Underclass."
    - "The Riots in London are a Culmination of Decades of Failed Social Policies."

  • Comment number 23.

    What really scares the politicians in these days of cuts and austerity is any kind of spontaneous demonstration of dissent.
    The trouble of the past days hasn't been about cuts of course.
    Its just striking how worried they all are about something happening that they have no control over.

  • Comment number 24.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 25.

    After two consecutive nights when people have deliberately confused attempts to explain the causes of the riots with attempts to excuse them, can we please have some intelligent discussion tonight about what's going on in our society. The BBC's requirement for balance should not always lead to a shouting match between mutually opposed thugs. If Cabinet Ministers are incapable of intelligent debate without becoming abusive, they should be banned from the programme. News International & the House of Commons already provide them with plenty of outlets for less ruly behaviour.

  • Comment number 26.

    #21 Sasha Clarkson wrote:

    "Re the "Rivers Of Blood" speech. A significant part of the first wave of "new commonwealth" immigration was facilitated by Enoch Powell as Minister of Health."

    You either did not read the speech or have deliberately ignored the content of it.
    Powell said...

    "This has nothing to do with the entry of Commonwealth citizens, any more than of aliens, into this country, for the purposes of study or of improving their qualifications, like (for instance) the Commonwealth doctors who, to the advantage of their own countries, have enabled our hospital service to be expanded faster than would otherwise have been possible. They are not, and never have been, immigrants."

  • Comment number 27.


    Thanks Bro - thanks. (I am too modest to say it underlines all I have been saying using a clever twist.)

  • Comment number 28.

    #27 barrie

    Perhaps the proof that Westminster is institutionally corrupt is the fact that they elected Tim ( nice but dim ) Yeo as the chair of the Climate Change select committee, despite his long list of published financial conflicts of interest on environment policy in general.

  • Comment number 29.


    A common theme now runs through many posts here: comparison of Westminster acquisitive law-breaking and that of the rioters.


    When the full weight of dishonourable dishonesty, performed by MPs is reprised in one wallop, the effect is telling. When it was all going on, I kept pointing out that if the rest had no idea, they were FOOLS; the ones in the know, being KNAVES. And the whole lot unfit for Public Office.

    BUT WHAT DOES IT SAY OF US? Come on - we knew!

  • Comment number 30.

    @26 Yes Muse, but then there was the rhetoric about black and white, eg "Eight years ago in a respectable street in Wolverhampton a house was sold to a Negro. Now only one white (a woman old-age pensioner) lives there......"

    Apart from the fact that the alleged fact in this case could never be verifie, Powell, as often, was intellectually dishonest and disingenuous. He stirred up the latent resentment, and, de-facto incited the anti-coloured violence which took place in the immediate aftermath of his speech. None of the attackers asked the victims whether they were "commomwelth citizens or aliens" and therefore "not, and never have been, immigrants." In those days, most immigrants WERE Commonwealth citizens, encouraged to come here during the labour shortages of the 50s and early 60s.

    Powell was neither naive nor stupid, therefore his sophistry must have been deliberate. He couldn't have cared about the consequences.

    As Disraeli said of Gladstone, Powell was "a sophistical rhetorician, inebriated with the exuberance of his own verbosity, and gifted with an egotistical imagination that can at all times command an interminable and inconsistent series of arguments......."

  • Comment number 31.

    Bet the BBC are really pleased they decided to move to Salford!

    Anyone hear Boris spouting about the Olympics this morning? Does he really think those of us under attack in London care a flying fig about this overblown event?

  • Comment number 32.

    The feral young people running riot throughout our city and town centres are the product of 50 years of social liberalism and 30 years of economic liberalism.

    Where children are treated as gods, who do no wrong. At home, children are given gifts even when their behaviour doesn’t warrant it, and aren’t told off. They see from the media the messages that greed is good. It doesn’t matter what something costs, pay it at a later date. The patience of saving is irrelevant.

    At school, teachers are their pals, rather than figures of authority who impart knowledge and wisdom. Children’s school work is given green ticks, even when they are wrong. So children don't learn that success come from failure and children aren't being taught to accept that they can be in the wrong. It produces very self-centred young people wanting everything for nothing.

    The UK as the highest number of drug users, and one of the highest alcohol intake in Europe. Also, the UK as the highest number of people practising casual sex in the western world. This is all because people want instant gratification. Even though drug use, alcohol addiction and casual sex cause serious psychological harm as well as physical harm.

    It’s all right for the liberals to say we can all have a party and do as we please, such behaviour has serious consequences upon society.

    Where as economic liberalism caused financial ruin, social liberalism as caused moral ruin.

  • Comment number 33.

    The BBC should have recalled Jeremy Paxman for the debates this week. Esler is completely out of his death, in fact last night I wondered why he was even on the programme. He allowed the odious Harperson to have about three times more air time than the articulate Michael Gove and never challenged her ludicrous pretension that the scum we saw indulging in a retail frenzy were somehow protesting about tuition fees.

  • Comment number 34.

    Meant to add that I've only seen Harperson in the flesh twice - both times sitting in the top price seats at Covent Garden.

  • Comment number 35.

  • Comment number 36.

    Does anyone know how Ms Varsi has earnt stroke obtained her exalted status? Although I went to Oxford - on a day trip - it’s beyond me!

    Ditto ..... but referencing Ms Abbott!

    P.P. The aforementioned offered solution .....

    Use some state benefits as the proverbial carrot instead of the stick!

    Or is that too draconian?

    Or against ‘human rights’?

  • Comment number 37.

    Oops ....... (Again!)



  • Comment number 38.

    Joe @32 "It’s all right for the liberals to say we can all have a party and do as we please" Please tell me who does say this? Or are you putting words into the mouth of an imaginary foe? Cheap victory in that case.

    As a former teacher, I can tell you that "those who want to be pals" don't survive too long in the classroom. On the other hand, to be a figure of genuine authority, you have to EARN respect. You can't just demand it.

    Is what you have posted based upon your own thoughts and experiences, or just recycled potted thinking from some tabloid commentator pretending to be profound?

    Sorry if this seems harsh! In a much earlier incarnation, when taking a theology subsid at KCL, I wrote an essay for the ethics prof. Very kindly, he passed me after gently but thoroughly rubbishing it. The beam was removed from my eyes, and I realised that what I had imagined was pristine prose, was in reality bovine ordure. Very embarrassed, I slunk away to lick the wounds to my pride and ego. I shall always be grateful to the late Gordon Dunstan. I was a science student actually, but his was the lesson, both in substance and in manner, which I remember the most!

  • Comment number 39.

    The sheer hypocrisy of the politicians is nauseating to watch.

    Cameron talking of "People pretending to help someone while they are robbing them." is a perfect description of the expense fiddling politicians.

    Baroness Warsi stating how "people are not taking responsibility for their actions" is an equally good description of how the corrupt politicians blamed "the system" for their fiddling and fraud instead of taking responsibility for their actions.

    Tomorrow we will have to endure hours of these out of touch, arrogant people playing to the gallery. I'd rather the lot of them had stayed on holiday, they will do more harm than good by no doubt passing a few more knee jerk laws to add to the thousands they have already passed.

    Thousands and thousands of authoritarian laws designed to criminalise us (not them) and we find ourselves in the position we are today. CCTV everywhere, the most spied upon nation in the world. Hasn't worked very well has it?

  • Comment number 40.

    I was wondering about the noble Baroness who seems nobly out of her depth. Who on earth made her Chairman of the Conservative Party and it isn't it time they removed her? Diane Abbott ran rings round her

  • Comment number 41.

    Right wing nutters pushing the " work makes you free " line again, that's probably one of the key reasons we are where we are now !

  • Comment number 42.

  • Comment number 43.

    It's easy to talk about sickness when you have a six figure salary. Your children look at the things they might like to do and you can afford it. They can afford to do worthwhile things with their time. On benefits what value of life do you have? These children look at the opportunities they have currently and what opportunity do they have to get the things they are told by the media that will fill the miserable gap in time they have because their self worth is so lacking. We value things as a society. An overgrown state is the consequence of the inequality of opportunity that people at the bottom of the pile have. Our children have been killing each other, but the concern was less when they were doing it on estates far from us. Now they've brought this reality into our highstreet we are suddenly looking at what we should do. I think we should cut the services that feed them and protect us from them further, come on Cameron, save some more pennies we can pay in pounds more of damage. Might as well put a decent concrete roof over their head and raise respect among their peers, that's the way to do it!!! We could even pay someone else to cover the costs, outsourcing saves so much money.

  • Comment number 44.

    Loobdy redacted! ..........

    Three good ‘shows’ in a row!

    Keep that focus man, know what I mean!

    Next it’s double figures!


    Didn’t forget this time! .... Yipee!


  • Comment number 45.

    Why can't politicians and other commentators realise (or admit publically more like) that some people are just bad? You get good and bad the world over and it's got nothing to do with race, sex, age, intelligence or social/financial status.

    We are now seeing, in many instances, the 3rd generation of people who have never worked. Youths who have not only never known their parent to have a job and pay their own way but have never even seen their grandparents work!

    Add to this the fact that teachers have been stripped of nearly all authority over the years so that children no longer listen to any direction or discipline, resulting in many not even attending school regularly.

    Add to this a benefit system that offers higher financial rewards than many salaries (in my area at least) I formerly worked for the job centre so know what I'm talking about here eg £450 per week benefits due to a claimant having a number of children etc etc when the only jobs available to their skill set were paying £200 per week! By the way, I'm now 36 and the claimants claim date was before I was born! Add to this that there was an attitude amongst vast amounts of people that they absolutely had no interest in working. What example does this set for their children?

    It has nothing to do with poverty. I consider myself poor like millions of other people in this country and we do not act like these animals.

    What I'm getting at here is that is the parents responsibility to guide, nuture and teach their children right from wrong and to earn both material goods as well as respect - neither of these are a given and are hard earned - something that many today feel they deserve as a default setting for some reason. Secondly, give power back to the educators. Thirdly, when people have broken the law, punishment should be a deterrent not something that feels like there's no real consequence. Fourth, let's talk about the rights of the victims a bit more for a change.

    Let us not forget that innocent law abiding citizens have lost everything but the clothes on their backs due to these thugs burning their homes to the ground.

    Parents - hold you heads in shame
    Liberal do gooders - hold your heads in shame

    ...and finally and most importantly, the perpetrators - HOLD YOUR HEADS IN SHAME

  • Comment number 46.

    I would like to hear more from Baroness Warsi - her comments were both refreshing and intelligent. Dianne Abbott on the other hand was completely irrelevent and self-serving she appeared to deliberately misconstrue Baroness Warsi's comments. We need our politicians to respond with honesty and 'tell it as it is'. I came from dysfunctional and morally impoverished home but one thing I knew for sure was that my children (who both have university and post grad. degrees) would not have the same upbringing I did. The lack of good parenting is the singularly most important factor in the behaviour of these young rioters. Too many parents rely on teachers, social services, the police etc. to do the work they should be doing. No more excuses please.

  • Comment number 47.

  • Comment number 48.

  • Comment number 49.

    Always makes me wryly smile when politicians go on about morality, especially Cameron referring to the student who was robbed by the street gang pretending to help him.

    While that incident was utterly disgraceful - and all the rioting - what about the financial institutions who pretend to be your friend and then lift what they can from you.

    PPI insurance mis-selling for starters. Pension schemes where people have saved all their lives and the pot suddenly seems to be depleted. Bankers who have sold investment plans based on thin air advice.

    Haven't heard Cameron once making a statement outside Number 10 condemning that disgraceful lack of decency and morality and the ruinous effect it has on people's lives.

  • Comment number 50.

    Yes I would definitely like to hear more from people who can speak for us people who are looking to lose their jobs. I mean the next election is looking so good for the conservative/liberal sect. They certainly represent a change towards the value of the everyday person.

    They seem so compassionate towards the working man.

    Banking bonuses through the roof, cost of education higher than ever, they're really penetrating these thugs self image of robin hoods.

    Corporations behave in the same way as these youngsters, stripping everything they want from the environment and wasting what's left.

    We are the only creatures on the planet that can create waste in evvery purhase we make. Our value is there. Where is the value in life we so desperately crave in our youngsters?

    Liberal thinking = free thinking, and maybe our value for something more than the pound. Valuing life over possessions maybe more a route through this problem than some selfish retaliation to the generation we leave behind.

    We seem to forget these children are seeing the devastation of their future currently we have consumed all the resources destroyed their inheritance and leave them unlikely to ever own a home. There are no jobs, nothing is growing. We may be looking at paying more banking debt if the euro goes down.

    The next government are going to sound very similar about the latest reign of the CONDEMS. What will they inherit?

  • Comment number 51.

  • Comment number 52.

    Free market capitalism, put another way is 'law of the jungle capitalism'.

    We are simply seeing the effects the 'values' of that model ultimately has on society.

    As many are starting to realise, the looters are following the example of their leaders in society, be it politicians mired in expenses and media scandals or corporations ruthlessly manipulating the system to get as much out of it as possible then putting the proceeds on an offshore tax haven.

    Those actions are actually more damaging to society than the actions of the looters, yet nobody gets brought to account,nobody goes to jail, quite the opposite in fact, they are seen as 'sucessful'.

  • Comment number 53.

    As I sat pondering the value, and impact of what the 24/7 news maw serves up on our screens when this email arrived...

    'Snowmail: A correction - Apologies for the earlier Snowmail in which we wrongly said that an 11-year-old boy was one of three people who were killed last night'

    Mistakes get made, but was this such a case, or letting twitter turn to ratings gold before professional standards applied? This seems less than designed to ease tensions.

    Another 'source' to be wary of.

    Maybe pieces will get flagged in future with A St. George's cross?

    When 'news' gets run through folk who tell others what to call things to such degrees, life takes an perverse turn.

  • Comment number 54.

    While everyone has been arguing about the riots, most of you have lost 25% off your pensions over the last couple of days.

    Days to bury bad news or what.

  • Comment number 55.

    An interesting debate....

    One of my suggestions would be to take Eastenders off TV, and all types of media stop promoting the false world of celebrity.

    Now stop laughing..................

  • Comment number 56.

    The common view i am hearing from the media is that this wave of violence has nothing to do with ideology. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is ideology that has turned Britain from a cohesive forward looking society (albeit with rubbish management of our industry and stupid union leaders) in the 1960s and 70s to the mean greedy individualistic society we have today.

    It is no good for Cameron to talk about The Big Society and all being in this together, whilst his party still reveres the person who set the country on the road to this fragmented narcissistic grab-it-and-run culture.

    We are now reaping the effects of 30 years of fundamentalist monetarist and market policies which have no moral basis and encourage the kind of behaviour we see on the streets. This is not a bottom-up malaise but a top down effect. The old saying goes that "a fish starts to rot at the head first" our leaders have been obsessed with money and standards of living for the rich whilst encouraging a culture of materialism, individualism and greed and creating a spirit of envy in our people. They have set the example of snouts in the trough for politicians, bankers and professionals, whilst complaining that the weak and vulnerable are costing too much and taxation is too high.

    The divide between rich and poor has continued to widen under all governments since 1980, shamefully under labour, with the mantra that the market, like some benign divinity, will make everything better. It wont, because as a form of evolution, the survival of the fittest in market terms means the rich simply end up with everything. The whole point of being human is that we are not subject to evolutionary/market forces, we are existential beings who can shape our own future.

    There is plenty of evidence that a society where the standard of living across the whole spectrum of citizens is relatively close, the happier people are. Social cohesion has a lot to do with self respect, and self respect has a lot to do with how you are regarded. As the woman in Salford observed "if you tell them they're scum, they will act like scum."

    Telling a section of society it is sick is one step away from the final solution.... Mr. Cameron, we are all in this together......except you (apparently).

  • Comment number 57.

    Don't agree with looting or criminality, but do think we should try to understand it - what the government appears to be doing about it - and what we think of that.

    A society with a large underclass and massive social inequality is living on the edge - the gated communities with their armed security guards where the rich exclude the poor from the neighbouring S. American favellas or the shantytowns of S. Africa were built for a good reason!

    In inner city areas youth see their status defined by consumption - these trainers, that phone - and advertising and media rams this down their throats - the bling is dangled, the social pressure is to have it - but there is no job and therefore no money to pay for it. It may be greed, but it's the core of the way our economy works - rampant consumerism - endless advertising 24/7. We cannot on the one hand project messages about personal value based on an unreachable lifestyle, then be surprised there is a resentful underclass which feels - and is - economically and socially excluded from it.

    What can we do about it? Here are the classicial responses by governments all around the world:

    1. Remove the underclass well away from affluent areas - this started with the privatisation in the UK of social housing through council house sales and upping the pace of "social cleansing" is already well in train with the capping of housing benefits. In Paris Hausmann cleared the rookeries in the 19th C, openming the boluevards to grapeshot the Mob and since the war the french underclass has been dispatched to vast suburban complexes of flats where they can riot as much as they like but only damage their own community, not the chic Arrondisements.

    2. Use repression to counter any street violence - the first stage is to swamp the inner cities with police, but as in the innercity areas of USA like Watts, this will require a much larger prison capacity to ensure those willing to riot face a sufficiently harsh penalty to deter others. It also means ramping up the level of "deterence" of prison - in the USA the way prisoners are treated would breech the european civil rights law, so a bit if a problem with getting that through here.

    3. Take much firmer action to reduce the numbers of people coming in to the UK to work, whilst ramping up the pressure on those out of work to take whatever's going. Known as "workfare", Ian Duncan Smith's Work Programme is the spearhead for this.

    4. Demonise all those involved in any form of riots, looting or violent protests. This requires

  • Comment number 58.

    If anyone really thinks that these rioting youths even thought about free Market capitalism, what the banks have done to our country, waste and pollution, climate change or the mp expenses scandal you're living in cloud cookoo land!

    They've been left to get on with it with no input from disinterested parents where the only thing inherited is the attitude that theyre racially, financially/socially (or both) persecuted. Always looking for excuses for their actions instead of taking responsibility for their own lives. They think they're owed something. What are they owed exactly? I've been given nothing!

    I've had nothing, I've been there. But I have a job and my own home although I'm not well off by any stretch of the imagination. I am working class and poor. I got off my backside and did something to change my situation. I wish certain parts of our society would stop feeling sorry for themselves, stop jumping on age old bandwagons and excuses and I wish liberals would take the Rose tinted glasses off and stop pandering to these excuses.

    Society hasn't marginalised these criminals, they marginalise themselves. They couldn't give a toss about a job, law and order, integrating with their communities instead of terrorising them in gangs, Politics, education etc etc

    Instead of blaming this 'capitalist society' and venting your political beliefs - just like the useless politicians in this country using this terrible episode for their own political gain - think why this is really happening and then maybe it can be cured! two words - PARENTING & EDUCATION. How can it be to do with race, religion or poverty when other people from all these walks of life sort themselves out and don't resort to actions that ruin other people lives.

  • Comment number 59.

    To complete truncated post: (this blog system is REALLY creaking)

    4. Demonise all those involved in any form of riots, looting or violent protests. This requires coalition politicians to go on the media at every opportunity and bang the drum to say that it's all caused by individual greed, wickness and the failure of their parents & schools to create the right behaviour model. The fact that rioting and looting has taken place across the planet wherever a social divide and an underclass has emerged in different cultures, religions and forms of government since the dawn of urbanisation 4,000 years ago does rather suggest that the causes of unrest require a specific pattern of social relationships, rather than a critical mass of wicked, "sick" individuals - and if government allows this pattern to take root, the consequences are just as predictable today as they were For Nero, Napoleon or David Cameron.

    Michael Gove's outrageous treatment of Harriet Harman the other evening is revealing - once widespread civil unrest sets in during a rapid economic decline with no prospect of improvement for the foreeeable future to peel off enough of the underclass to return it to its normal simming, dormant state, then unrest can react "critical mass" and snowball quite rapidly, but there is still an election looming in the not too distant future, so there is no alternative strategy left to keep the coalition/tory government in power other than to attempt to smear the Labour Party by arguing they are either soft on or in some way sympathetic to criminal rioters/looters, so are in some way their apologists and if in power would allow unrest to get much worse.

  • Comment number 60.

    #58 Fab7 wrote:

    "Instead of blaming this 'capitalist society' and venting your political beliefs - just like the useless politicians in this country using this terrible episode for their own political gain - think why this is really happening and then maybe it can be cured!"

    But do YOU think it's possible that these kids could possibly be the RESULT of a capitalist society?

    Read #49 above to understand the hypocrisy of the current regime in this country.

  • Comment number 61.


    Of course they never thought about 'law of the jungle' capitalism, they are merely enacting it, responding to the ethos 'law of the jungle' capitalism promotes.

    If you look at the behaviour of the banking sector (for example) over the last 20 years it is not a million miles away from what the looters are doing now.

    The only difference is what they are doing was made legal by changes in the law during the 80's and most people do not understand what they have done. Those laws and regulation were put in place after the last great depression to stop this sort of thing happening again, they actively lobbied for those changes.

    Parenting and education will only solve this if the right conditions are fostered for good parenting and education to prosper. We are talking decades here, this crap has been building up in the system for decades and will take that long to purge it.

    The other thing people fail to understand is that THERE WILL NEVER BE JOBS FOR THEM under a 'law of the jungle' capitalist system.. its impossible to grow economically and get more efficient all the time and keep everybody in USEFUL employment.

    The choices are on the immediate control side are:

    1) Build loads more jails, make em horrible, put loads of people in them so they prefer to behave outside of jail even if thier lives are tough and getting tougher outside jail with not job and no prospect of one living on benefits which buy them less and less every week. Allow the police to be far more brutal without fear of being arrested themselves.

    2) Increase gov borrowing to increase benefit payments in line with inflation so that living outside jail is still the preferred option.

    On the long term solution side the choices are:

    1) Keep them 'ghetoed' and repressed by the force of law permanently while maintaining a 'law of the jungle' capitalist system. They will never have any jobs or prospect of being positive members of society under that system.

    2) deal with the immediate social issue by the force of law while simultaneously changing from 'law of the jungle' capitalism to what is terms a 'steady state economic model'.... Never heard of it? Not many people have because banks and corporations dont get richer out of it, it does however provide a sustainable means for everyone to be able to have hope for the future and have the opportunity to contribute to society.

    'getting off your backside' only works if there is something to 'get off your backside' for. Law of the jungle capitalism requires those who have usefulness to the economy to work all hours in order to get taxed to death in order to support those who do not have a role under that system and never will and also to support the mass ranks of civil servants and bankers creaming a %tage off the top of your labours.

    I do not support anything the rioters have done, but it IS a good opportunity to get the message out there for people to understand what really underpins all this and for trying to take that opportunity, for what i believe will be for the good, I do not apologise.

    If I have convinced you to think about this even alittle I will be very pleased, I dont have an agenda other than trying to make things better... just like you.

  • Comment number 62.

    Journalist and ex-MP Matthew Parris writes in todays Times that "... {the troublemakers} cannot amount to more than about 1% of our population. They are concentrated in cheerless and decaying pockets, they have no prospects, no education, nothing to lose and many are socially dysfunctional and barely employable."

    20% of our school-leavers are functionally illiterate and innumerate, so it seems to me that this amounts to far more than 1% of our population (in England).

    So much hinges on having a decent quality education, the State (in England) has failed to provide it over the past few decades and now we English must all suffer the consequences for probably at least another decade or so.

  • Comment number 63.


    It is all one sickness - TOXIC WESTMINSTER IS THE CAUSE.

    This explosion of archetypal force is a once-in-a-generation chance to crack the -Westminster Citadel. We the people deserve a SUPER CHILCOT committee of enquiry, to look though every aspect of its function.


  • Comment number 64.


    Had Dave been born UNPRIVILEDGED yet with the full set of nasty credentials he has displayed in his life so far - particularly in recent years - I am in little doubt his impact on 'the streets' would have been of a seriously disruptive, antisocial nature.

    When will the cowards around him tell him about Dave?

  • Comment number 65.


    Nick signalled his lack of connection to Dave, loud and clear again. Just hanging on for the pension now, I suppose.

  • Comment number 66.

  • Comment number 67.

    the droning voice of Baroness Warsi was like a cinder under a door, she never stops to draw breath and no matter how Gavin tried she just droned on and on. Harriet Harmon stopped talking when required to do so and spoke common sense especially over the disasterous decision to curtail police numbers. Gavin Essler will never be Jeremy Paxman but he aquitted himself so well and a true test of chairmanship was over these difficult days when the country is under tremendous pressure. Well done, Mr Essler....

  • Comment number 68.

    Gove and Warsi should be put in a darkened room as forced to apologise to the great British public for being extremely silly.......

  • Comment number 69.

    WELL SCROLL ON! (#55 link)

    Suddenly there was a picture of Blair! The most 'other-minded' destroyer of infrastructure and lives - other than Dubya - this poor planet has known for a while.

    What if we imagine a poor-boy Blair? Would he have been nice to know?

  • Comment number 70.

    And regarding the jobs situation, yes jobs are extremely scarce but the amount of times I've heard "I'm not doing this or that job". REALITY CHECK: very few people enjoy their job or enjoy going to work every day but we do it. When I was growing up I wanted to be a train driver then I learned to play guitar and joined a band and I wanted to be a rock star. Guess how it turned out? I'M NEITHER! If there's a job available, no matter how menial and rubbish you think it is, if you're serious, you do it. You don't sit around waiting for handouts or your ultimate job to come along. That's life and some people need to grow up.

    With regards to the rich and poor divide: unfortunately true communism does not work. There has never been a true communist state for a reason. People have always sabbotaged things for their own greed for wealth or power. Human nature prevents these noble theories working. Human beings are competitive. Just like in nature, it will always be survival of the fittest. It's sad and I wish it wasn't the case but that is how the planet (not just the human race) works. As a supposedly intelligent species we can try and soften these forces and various administrations with certain degrees of failure have tried throughout history. I'll never be a millionaire, I'll never have a Ferrari, I'll never have a luxury home but why should that stop me from trying to do the best I can? My attitude has been lost by some unfortunately in recent generations. I agree with some comments on here that the media has accelerated to a point where it now portrays unrealistic lifestyles for the majority of us but a lot of us also realise this!....ummmm, brings me back to good parenting and effective education?

  • Comment number 71.

    barriesingleton @ 64

    You complain about David Cameron and ' ... the full set of nasty credentials he has displayed in his life ...'.

    Possibly, you are referring the time when he and his young chums were on the rampage around Oxford as members of the Bullingdon club (no photo available as teh copyright has been withdrawn).

    However, the difference is that 'Dave' and his chums, being extremely privileged, could and did, simply pay for the carnage they left in their wake; whereas the 'Toccy/Totty crews' will expect the taxpayer to pick up the tab for their 'bad fun'.

    Some might see a sort of moral equivalence though between the two sets of youths, which is somewhat disturbing.

  • Comment number 72.

    I'm mindful that I'm sounding extremely right wing with a large helping of heartlessness thrown in to boot here. Im just trying to point out that in these situations the pendulum can swing wildly in one direction and miss important problems/solutions altogether. I stand by my opinion that there has been an attitude in this country (even pre recession) amongst some that they expect everything to be given to them without having to earn it the hard way. It is obviously fact that we are in a dire situation job-wise but I disagree that there are no jobs. How do unskilled migrant workers seem to find employment here for example? I agree whole heartedly with many of #59 & #61 points Fixing parenting and education will take years but let's admit there are problems and begin now to put them right. I don't like the law of the jungle any more than you but it's what we have. Human nature will never allow anything else. All we can do is hope these people step back into the society we've been dealt, make them feel welcome and try to make it as equal as possible in a very unequal world. I will hold my hand out to anyone who is willing to try their best in life. The problem is some of these folk don't want to try and this is the long term challenge I refer to.

  • Comment number 73.


    Baroness Wasri would be a great digeridoo player, requires you to breath through your nose while maintaining a constant stream of uninterupted hot air coming from your mouth.

    Must be the first module of study in political science for wanabe politicians.

    Proves my theory that the Aboringinees were way ahead of us as well, clearly the instrument was developed specifically to redirect a mis-guided desire to hear the sound of your own voice into something everyone could enjoy and to inspire dancing to promote bonding and social cohesion and comaradery for the good of society.

    The meek shall inherit the earth... again.. if we carry on like this.

    Alternatively we could pass a law making it compulsory for anyone with a desire to go into politics as a career to learn to play the digeridoo instead. Society would be changed overnight.

    Only those with no desire to go into politics would be allowed to.

  • Comment number 74.

    sick society

    does that includes the bullingdon?

    what moral high ground do cameron, osbourne and boris have given their yoof?

    are people who trash restaurants part of the broken society and dysfunctional families?


    is 1 xtra glorifying the philosophy behind the 'sickness' a force for good in society?

  • Comment number 75.


    A steady state economy is not communism. Only things which are essential to people's well being are controlled by an elected state, that is banking, energy, food (to a certain extent) and critical infrastructure. Everyone would be required to contribute to that, even if all that means is growing a proportion of their own food..everybody contributes.

    Everything else outside of the essentials can be traded, competed over in the dynamic capitalist way. I would not want it any other way. There would be rich and poor, celebrities and casinos and gizmos and fancy gas guzzling cars (they would be taxed v heavily though).

    What there would NOT be is people enriching themselves off the things that are essential for the basic running of society and everyone would have to contribute to that society.

    Assuming it is communism is falling exactly into the trap free market capitalists (law ofthe jungle capitalism) wants you to. The more people believe that and reject it the richer they get off the back of your labour.

    It is steady state capitalism if you like it is not communism, and we now have the technology to do it as well.

    Am I getting there?

    You know.. all the stuff that everybody owned before and was sold off to

  • Comment number 76.

    From Spiegel: "According the OECD, there is no other country in the West in which wealth is distributed as unfairly as in Britain. Nowhere else are the opportunities for children to escape poverty as limited."

    The conservative daily Die Welt writes:

    "We are facing a 'failed society' in Britain on the lower end of the social scale, which could become a threat to the balance of the entire society......."

    A selection of other views from Germany:,1518,779677,00.html

  • Comment number 77.


    MPs, and their spinhead henchmen, have not yet realised - what has been well aired on this blog - the, ever-strengthening resonances between what WESTMINSTER DID TO US FOR YEARS and what the OTHER 'Mindless Thugs' did to their Eton-buddy: Mammon, just recently. So powerful is that resonance, there is, FOR THE FIRST TIME, an exploitable breach in the Westminster Citadel Wall. That wall cannot handle the above truth - keep firing the same shot at the same place!

    Here is some handy Chain Shot for a salvo or two: Smoking is OVERALL, 25% more deadly to young women than men.

    Many here will remember the CRIMINAL, TARGETED ATTACK come CHEMICAL VIOLENCE AND ROBBERY, launched upon women, BY TOBACCO GANGS, when men began to see their folly, and stop smoking. The governments fussed and tinkered to prolong their tax income.

    We joined an EU that still grows AND TAXES this poison (up until recently, GIVING A SUBSIDY!

    These gangs have robbed and beaten us for too long. Don't let MPs fill the gap with our 'dead', or indeed, their claptrap. DISMANTLE WESTMINSTER - SPOIL PARTY GAMES INSALL INTEGRITY.

  • Comment number 78.

    Oh dear, the Marxian defined “class traitors” rose up and protected their families ,their homes and livelihoods , the left then quickly denounce then as right wing extremists.

    I suspect the hasty labelling is because it demonstrated that the state can not protect everyone all of the time and of course that is somewhat a right wing argument.

    Reading from the posts over the past number of days , the left were getting quite excited about a whiff of revolution being in the air.

    No doubt we will be hearing from hard done by rioters in the coming days and weeks , with socialists dispensing their excuses, after excuses, for their actions.

  • Comment number 79.

    Going on about bad parenting, lack of moral values and a "sick" society is the libertarian flip side of "poor little dears" bemoaning do-gooder social workers - both now stand around wrigging their hands and demanding ACTION - although neither side actually offers anything which will produce permanent change.

    The point is that we are where we are and that poor job prospects, low incomes and no apparent way out of this situation for more than 50% of young people in inner cities are the critical factors which create the environment where social unrest festers.

    Shall we spend vast sums on extra police, prisons, security and compensation for the future victims of riots, or shall we spend the money on creating jobs and prospects for these young people? In N.Ireland where social and economic exclusion of catholics from jobs and housing created the underclass there before "the troubles" set in, the UK government stood back and let the protestant bigots have their way, but in the end the unrest overwhelmed the Royal Ulster Constabulary to the point where troops were sent in.

    At the time if we had had the sense, we would have done something immediately to create jobs and incomes for this underclass - instead we spent orders of magnitude more money on fighting the PIRA and condemned the entire community to urban conflict for several generations.

    This requires resources, commitment and imagination, not belicose noises, plastic bullets and water cannon. It's quite clear from the BoE forecast, the recent comments of the boss of the OBR and the IMF that Plan A isn't going to deliver the growth and therefore the jobs that solving this problem requires - and it's also clear that the rioting will continue to bubble under the surface and re-erupt, so unless there is a road to Damacus revelation in No10, we're headed down the same road as every other country that has tried to repress social unrest - a vast amount of wasted talent, huge cost and loads of suffering.

    We found £40,000 for every man, woman & child in the country to bail out the banks, but we can't find a tiny fraction of that amount to help less than 10% of the population into a job. This is stupid, self-defeating, will cost us more in the long run and allows the root cause of the problem to go on getting worse.

    You would be forgiven for thinking that the rioters were anarchists hell-bent on smashing the state, but the truth is those who are really effective state-smashers are the libertarian fanatics in the government who are doing massive, long%

  • Comment number 80.

    Jericoa - yes. sounds like a plan. When can I vote for you because the people currently on the list haven't got a clue!

  • Comment number 81.

    Additional #78
    Gangs -
    I should add that Mrs Abbot was completely right in objecting to the assertion that black culture was to blame , “gangbanger” culture is an import from South and North America. It thrives within deprived and disillusioned groups of all hues and none.

    Maybe the assertion was a intended “strawman” construct , easily knocked down by its ridiculous blanket suggestion, I don't know. But I feel I have to write and refute it anyway.

  • Comment number 82.


    You are very kind and thank you, I (and others here and elsewhere) have been banging on about these things ever since the financial crash, banging on in the sense of banging a head against a brick wall I might add.

    There is (in so far as I am aware) no political party that advocates a 'steady state capitalism' model as described, if there were I would join them. I have a job and a family to feed so I dont have time to start one.

    The closest a political party comes to it is probably the Green Party.. but I have my reservations about them too on quite a few issues so that does not work for me either.

    For more information and some reassurance I am not just making this up, probably the best source of information is NEF (New Economics Foundation) which has researched and put hard numbers to many of these ideas. NEF is not a political organisation, it is essentially a 'think tank' but it relys on charitable donations and is not sponsored by any political party or big business.

    I hope this helps. The more people who see the truth of it, talk about it, tell their friends about it outside the leveraged 'mediasphere' eventually I hope there will be a collective moment of clarity and change.

    I will be happy enough simply to know I may have contributed to that in some small way and given my kids a better chance of growing up in a descent society like I (generally speaking) did. I appreciate it hugely having worked abroad in countries which have nothing like it, I know how rare and good it is comparitively even though it is far from perfect, to see it being slowly dismantled by big business lawyers masquerading as politicians.... the rot really started with NU labour ...nuff said.

  • Comment number 83.

    NOW SPACE. (#71)

    Nice to read and better to be challenged. Thanks.

    My sources for my denigration of Dave are: 1/ The Conservative Party 2010 Liar Flyer. es/conservative_party/?page=19
    (chosen at random) If your MP is Con, copy it to him - ask how it could read true.
    2) The complete text, audio and video files around the denigration and mocking of Nick Clegg, in the AV 'NO' campaign really should have seen Dave in the stocks. Such is Westminster, Nick had to shut up and take it and Dave just went on kicking, claiming HIS was 'the other campaign'). 3) The photoshopped face of Cameron that no one with an ounce of integrity would have employed. A callow seducer tactic.

    Nuff sed.

  • Comment number 84.


    I think a lot of people who do not follow such matters will be startled to learn some of the dark motivation in high places.

    The damaged, needy, hurt, child strives beyond any striving that the middle orders do, AND REACHES HIGH OFFICE ON PERSEVERENCE AND GUILE.

    Without power, status, aggrandisement, great feats, legacy and the like, having no REAL substance, they are exposed - and terrified.


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