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Friday 5 August 2011

Sarah McDermott | 16:51 UK time, Friday, 5 August 2011

Just five days ago, international investors were considering the possibility that the US government might default on its debt. That fear has now gone away, but it has been replaced by a fear that the world could be heading towards another credit crunch. Today instability on the stock markets continues, with sharp falls in the past 24 hours amid a crisis of confidence due to the eurozone debt crisis and concerns about weak recovery not only in the US but also in Europe.

To make sense of it all join Stephanie Flanders tonight, when she'll be examining the state of the global economy, at 2230 on BBC Two.

Comments

  • Comment number 1.

    By George - that's pretty nearly Game Over!

    Growth is essential for the debt repayment plan to work - and now the Government's own Office for Budgetary Responsibility and the International Monetary Fund both say the UK won't make its growth target.

    If the growth target is missed, the tax take won't be big enough and the welfare cost will be too big - so the debt WILL INCREASE, NOT GO DOWN - this is what happened in Japan a decade ago, in Eire, Portugal, Greece and is about to happen in Spain & Italy.

    The supposed "rebalancing" of the UK economy by devaluing Sterling has failed - firstly because our export markets are in turmoil so they are not buying, but at the same time imported inflation has cut living standards, whilst the squeeze in wages has been very real - demand is the problem and everything the coalition has done has reduced it even more.


    The austerity plan tis o take £11o Bn out of the economy - that equates to a massive further fall in aggregate demand - possibly up to £1 Tn - at a time when our economy is flatlining and the global factors point to a huge risk of deep, longlasting recession.

    Given that there is now a BIG BLACK HOLE in the government's economic plans, there is a meltdown in the global stock markets, a looming EuroLand debt crisis, the USA budget deficit ceiling crisis and the very real possibility of a second round of bank collapses and a global recession,JUST WHAT LEVEL OF CRISIS WOULD PROMPT THE GOVERNMENT TO REVIEW ITS ECONOMIC POLICY?

    I'm afraid I think this is political opportunism - ther chance to impose ideologically motivated amputation of large parts of the public sector, regardless how much damage this does to the economy in the long run.

    The libertarian fundamentalists really believe all they need to do is roll back the state and remove regulation, then the "magic of the market" will sort everything out.

    This a a quasi-religious belief - an act of faith in the supernatural - personally I don't believe in the supernatural and I simply don't understand why perfectly well-educated, intelligent people continue to do so.

    Yet we know markets are inherently imperfect - many are rigged, others are impossible to fathom - but still they cleave to their dogma.

    The wheels have now come off - the market is rapidly going beyond any rational behaviour and the "do nothing - and smash the state" ideology of these anarchists wilh have one effect only - to leave us to the mercies of the global meltdown.

  • Comment number 2.

  • Comment number 3.

  • Comment number 4.

    #3

    Far more likely the story is a journalistic swipe in revenge for NN investigating The Mirror.



  • Comment number 5.

    #1

    I'm doing my bit to help the global economy. I just ate some delicious strawberries, so delicious in fact it inspired me to look at the packet.

    They came from California.. I kid you not.

    I actually feel quite shocked.

    Nice though.


    I am going to get some T shirts made ''sustainable growth is an oxymoron''





  • Comment number 6.

    George come back off holiday and Dave and Nick, nobody is minding the store the world economy is in freefall and we need growth everythings Balls predicted would happen...is happening, we need fiscal stimulus not platitudes from George, we need world class statesmen not holly dollies.....

  • Comment number 7.

    A few thoughts:

    1) If markets were stable, the volume of trading would be much smaller, the casino capitalists would not be able to extract so much rent from the economy by short term trading, commissions, etc. Instability is actually in the interests of the financial services industry, as it enables them to rob the productive and the retired.

    "in 1951 .... about 2m shares were being traded every day. Now that figure has leapt to 8.5 billion, equivalent to the entire shares market traded three times over."

    https://www.neweconomics.org/blog/2011/07/20/the-next-banking-scandal

    2) It is difficult to remember that 4 years ago we had a boom. We were (apparently) providing for all our needs: we had the natural resources, manpower etc. There was, globally at least, no famine despite inequaliities and local problems.

    PHYSICALLY little has changed. What we have now is an accounting problem. The finance industry was allowed to create this problem by a crazy banking and investment system. In a (possibly imaginary) past, debt meant that one person delayed consumption, so that another could temporarily consume beyond his entitlement. Now debt exists because, with fractional reserve banking, it is the only way that enough money can be created to enable the economy to function at sufficient capacity to provide for peoples needs. And, of course, that enables the banks to extract rent, and provides an incentive for them to create bubbles.

    There is a Gordian knot here which needs to be cut.

    https://www.positivemoney.org.uk/

  • Comment number 8.

    To summarise @7 above. In more primitive societies, economic crises were caused by famines, plagues and wars. Now they are caused by mathematical relationships which are not a reflection of physical reality, ie not a proper model of needs and resources. Instead of amending or junking the mathematics, we try to coerce reality to the unreal model. This is to the advantage of some of the wealthy and powerful, but against the interests of the majority.

    Explain that please Stephanie! Step outside the model and cut the Gordian knot!!!

  • Comment number 9.

    # 5 Jericoa

    It would appear that none of our current mainstream politicians have got a coherent plan to release our economy from slavery to the banks and their stock market parasites. My # 15 last night was probably the first such plan ever published in outline, just need to broaden the debate, many who once thought the defaulting was never an option now take it as a normal position, no real ideological objections.

    Whatever happens it can only be a matter of time before the combined value of the FTSE 350 is under what the government has already stumped up to rescue the banks. It will echo the position of the Big Four railways after WW2, the government could not afford to pay them for the transport services they had provided during the war, but without the money for services rendered they could not afford the interest on the loans the government had given them cheap during the 1920s and 30s. I do believe that eventually the former shareholders got a minimal dividend under nationalisation, the government bought all the shares back in the 1970s.

    Anyway nobody can afford to keep paying anybody if it goes on, perhaps leading to anarchy in some of the bigger cities, I suspect that elements of the BNP will try to start a war with the Muslims. It is vital that we avoid any significant civil unrest, when the pay cheques stop appearing in peoples current account who knows what could happen.

    Nationalisation under the umbrella of the UK Peoples National Bank of which every citizen would have a share in the form of interest every month would probably be the only sane option. Just do it on a financial year end, perhaps the first after the election which could be called soon on Cameron's judgment. Saw or heard something the other day that Cameron hired a private investigator to vet Coulson, wasn't done through official government channels at all.

    When the private banks and their theoretical assets are taken over we could actually achieve a true free market system in our economy, sweeping away the current cartels in areas like energy and public transport. Its all out there to play for, people with genuine talent will be able to prosper, forget the universities except for science related subjects. That of course would need a purge of all the Marxist tutors ex-students refer to, but likewise all the alleged right wing people who have overtaken economics.

    Whatever we do we have to make sure what emerges from a global stock market meltdown makes sure that we don't end up like Somalia, everybody needs to think outside the box !

  • Comment number 10.

  • Comment number 11.

    NEWSNIGHT INCREASINGLY IRRELEVANT (#3 LINK)

    Isn't irrelevance the BBC credo; supporting the post-gravitas cohort, going forward?

    The triumph of style over substance?

    Nuff sed

  • Comment number 12.

    Baroness Warsi is the problem not the solution, by bailing out the banks governments have caused this problem. The stage is set, bank crisis followed by monetary crisis followed by war, does anyone remember the Great Depression, Weimar Germany and World War II? Cutting NN sounds like a good idea, replace it with some pretty young people (of both sexes) reading Zerohedge and Counterpunch stories with no politicians or bankers on just regular commentators who challenge the status quo such as Hugh Hendry, Noam Chomsky and maybe someone from Wikileaks, it would actually be a service to the country, which is what the BBC is supposed to be about, but lets be honest there is zero chance of that in these Orwellian times.

  • Comment number 13.

    I HAVE ALWAYS WONDERED . . . (#7)

    When you cut a Gordian Knot, isn't it like solving Fermat but being unable to show your working, hence impossible to derive anything further from the action?

    I'll get me Abacus.

  • Comment number 14.

    DOUGLAS ADAMS AGAIN

    I am pretty sure that Douglas Adams modelled the Silastic Armorfiends on nihilistic, pugnacious man (The Ape).

    Adams said that if you shut an Armorfiend in a room on his own, he would ultimately beat HIMSELF up.

    Global HomSap (a near equivalent) IS beating himself up. He has no idea of any other way of being. Cheats are prospering. Liars are lying in the sun at other's expense. The heartless are breaking hearts. The mindless are having babies. Lord knows what the feckless are doing - politics probably.

    I fail to see how anyone can get this lot in order just with MECHANISMS. Something much more fundamental to the MIND OF MAN is needed.

  • Comment number 15.

    #1: pretty much got it there, in combination with *some* of the comments on thurs show from the trio.

    "The libertarian fundamentalists really believe all they need to do is roll back the state and remove regulation, then the "magic of the market" will sort everything out.
    "This a a quasi-religious belief - an act of faith in the supernatural - personally I don't believe in the supernatural and I simply don't understand why perfectly well-educated, intelligent people continue to do so.
    "Yet we know markets are inherently imperfect - many are rigged, others are impossible to fathom - but still they cleave to their dogma."

    but you've picked up a bad habit from muse - libertarianism can range from the frankly insane cultishness of Randianism, (tea-party stupidity), to the libertarianism of Peter Kropotkin (that closely follows Social Democratic thought.).

    anarchism likewise is also a vast range of ideas, that is almost useless in debate to use the word: much the same is true of "Conservatism", where the Statist, semi-collectivist paternalism of Ted Heath sits alongside the rapacious feudalism of Margaret Thatcher - and reach the levels of incoherent craziness of FauxNews, - or again the Tea-Partyers.

    all the 'schools' of (western) ideology have vast wings, and intermingle, making it a very risky bet to use broad sweeping terms for specific, narrow insults. Certainly, if you are intending a serious post (as oppose to a 'lets annoy people' kind of post!).


    to go back to your point on "free market" - for a market to be "free", it HAS TO follow certain regulations. Regulations on information (the product itself, as a minimum), regulations preventing unnatural monopolies (the right to enter the market), are absolutely vital. The "deregulations" hat have occurred are actually aimed at *destroying* the Free Market, which is why charges/profits went up, and quality of products/services declined. See: Financial Services. After decades of "deregulation to promote competition", we have only a few companies left, and they are supposedly "too big too fail" - whilst being incredibly corrupt and inefficient. So either we think these well-educated people, who have benefited enormously personally from these deregulations, simply "got it wrong about deregulation", accidentally benefiting personally by beneficial accident ...coincidentally, or they were... simply lying to us all along.

    markets, to function properly, *require* regulation, transparency, and accountability. Markets cannot guide *everything*, nor should market-theory be taken as dogma. But i hope you can accept that it is not beyond the realms of possibility that the people parroting those lines either don't have a clue about what they are talking about, or do - and are deliberating spreading untruth, as in SO MANY OTHER AREAS OF OUR LIVES AND SOCIETY.


    #7 sasha: but the current "instability" is constantly being pushed as the "reason why we must have austerity" - DESPITE the best (albeit few in number) commentators pointing out that austerity MUST makes things worse!!

    i am reminded of the attack on Iraq, with so many of the talking-heads opining about WMD, and the emergency situation, and also the last "banking crisis", where banksters managed to walk away with not only "bail-out" money, but also ever larger bonuses and arrogance.

    the 'problem' of the UK is a shortfall in revenues compared to expenditure: so you cut spending and/or raise taxes. Best solution? Tax the wealthy. Now, note how many times academics say *THAT* on TV, - although some indeed do. The ones who don't, are simply not to be trusted, generally. Tax evasion is the UK's problem, NOT spending on the Welfare State.

    remember the Tories banging on about "the private sector"? Once they've destroyed the public sector in the name of allegedly-necessary "austerity", the contracts will then be offered to private, for-profit kkkorporations...

    truly, its all scripted, it is almost word for word what is usually pumped out by the IMF when they "liberate" a country. Thus far, they usually leave a country in permanent debt, and no social investment.

    to not see that on the cards, is the kind of wilful ignorance that makes dictators, and wannabe dictators, very happy indeed.


    yes - the "crash" is an accounting/financial problem. And is being used to push a specific ideology through against Public opposition, with the support of the kkkorporate media. And many 'lawmakers' are in it up to their necks.

  • Comment number 16.

    AS WE BOMB FOREIGNERS ON A WHIM, SURELY TO BANKRUPT THEM IS SECOND NATURE?

    I am in no doubt that (as the Balkan eruption indicated) 'OTHER' IS ALWAYS 'OTHER'.
    All the 'agreements' and mechanisms in the world (literally) will not alter the fact that, in all but the most evolved, mature, altruistic of men, the 'other' may be exploited, used, duped - yes, and bombed.

    Even if we managed (out of self-interest) to get the globe running as un-well as it did before the money-mess, we would STILL constitute a MEGA-BALKANS, waiting to collapse under the weight of underlying othernesses.

    One poster (at least) has likened finance to religion. Amen to that. But the word is plural - AND ECUMENISM IS A MANIFEST FAILURE.

    Religions are - de facto - WISDOM FREE ZONES. As above so below.

    Nuff sed

  • Comment number 17.

    BARONESS WARSI FOUND WANTING - ALONG WITH MANY OTHERS (#12)

    I have 'alerted' a variety of worthies in Westminster to the false instrument that is the Conservative 'Liar Flyer' (not infrequently using recorded delivery) and RECEIVING SILENCE IN RETURN. There's honour.

    Baroness Warsi was one such intended recipient. Of course, being trained in law, she will be aware that non-engagement permits later denial of all knowledge. The irony is that FALSE denial (not to mention unilateral rejection) brings the denier foul of 'MISCONDUCT IN PUBLIC OFFICE'. But, as recorded receipt at Westminster, is not evidence of PERSONAL receipt by Warsi, the law cannot engage.

    In short: we have a law to keep the honourable, honourable, but it can be defeated IF THEY ARE DISHONOURABLE. How VERY Westminster!

    This is the sort of untouchable disgrace that had poor Brian Haw living out his days in discomfort, protesting the iniquity THEY call democracy.

    Nick can't fix it and Dave revels in it.

  • Comment number 18.

    4. At 20:36 5th Aug 2011, Jericoa wrote:
    Far more likely the story is a journalistic swipe in revenge for NN investigating The Mirror.


    'When professional courtesy goes bad'

    'Stephanie Flanders tonight, when she'll be examining....

    Before hitting iPlayer to add one more to the viewer list, I have heard her 'examination' as an objective reporter involved being 'nauseated' about a politician on what appears to be a personally partisan basis.

    Along with much other BBC 'analysis', there seems to be at best some selectivity in what is even reported, making its value somewhat suspect.

  • Comment number 19.

    pity "viewing figures" for programs does not include the myriad ways of downloads available now - nor the number of pirate copies that swirl globally after a show. The first proposal would simply make viewing figures comparable to 'The Top 40 Charts' of Radio1.


    barry, #16:
    "I am in no doubt that (as the Balkan eruption indicated) 'OTHER' IS ALWAYS 'OTHER'.
    All the 'agreements' and mechanisms in the world (literally) will not alter the fact that, in all but the most evolved, mature, altruistic of men, the 'other' may be exploited, used, duped - yes, and bombed. "

    you think "the Other" only applies to foreigners, when the Country has a class-system so rigid that it is equivalent to a de facto racial apartheid? The top Tories have more in common with the North Korean 'Elite', than they do the average normal bloke/ess in the UK high-street, and that is somewhat true for the other 2 'main parties' as well.


    #9: brossen, if we nationalise the bankrupt banks, we nationalise the debts. Better to create new mutuals, let the kkkorporate banks fail, guarantee the smaller deposits, and transfer the physical assets to the new mutuals.

    this prevents the obvious 'solution' for Osborne and his evil masters to socialise the incredible debts, then re-privatise the nationalised banks for a fraction of what they cost the tax-payer.

    btw peeps, all this huffing and puffing about the "essentialness" of the Banks is exactly that. As i wrote earlier, it is precisely the same emotional/intellectual-bypass that was used to sell the Iraq War, and with as much basis in fact. No doubt the Banksters, and the Banksters in Govt (and their personal 'pepsi' dealers), do genuinely think this, and they will also be genuinely astonished at how quickly people/society will flow around their lack, and rebuild repair a decent financial services industry.

    what we have now, is that not only can't we trust the Banks, - we also cannot trust AT ALL our very own Govt to be doing what needs doing for OUR, National, benefit.


    that German banker who keeps cropping up - what the [BLEEP] kind of bubble universe is that freak living in? I felt sorry for [neera?] sitting next to him, trying to weave his insanity back into some kind of common discourse, and i thought Stephanie managed to keep the discussion flowing quite well.

    btw some of you guys, considering pretty much all you do is nastily slander the BBC, Newsnight, and the presenters, for years on end, do you think they are so shallow and insecure they even bother *reading* your insults anymore?? I hope not, anyways. They do a fantastic job, and take risks that the large majority of journalists wouldn't even dream of. I think its a pity this blog is dominated by people who do not appreciate what they DO get from NN - i wonder why certain bloggers do not blog on Russia Today's website, they clearly have more in common with the treachers on there, than with NN's direction.

    Sometimes on here it is like being surrounded by a flock of Lord Haw Haws. :/

  • Comment number 20.

    and the UK is the little poodle walking in its Master's foot-steps...:

    "For financial institutions the primary concern is the deficit. Therefore, only the deficit is under discussion. A large majority of the population favor addressing the deficit by taxing the very rich (72 percent, 27 percent opposed), reports a Washington Post-ABC News poll. Cutting health programs is opposed by overwhelming majorities (69 percent Medicaid, 78 percent Medicare). The likely outcome is therefore the opposite."

    ..."The result, according to Ferguson, is that debates “rely heavily on the endless repetition of a handful of slogans that have been battle-tested for their appeal to national investor blocs and interest groups that the leadership relies on for resources.” The country be damned."

    https://www.truth-out.org/america-decline/1312567242


    "S&P cut the long-term US rating by one notch to AA+ with a negative outlook, citing concerns about budget deficits.

    The agency said the deficit reduction plan passed by the US Congress on Tuesday did not go far enough."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14428930

    truth from Chomsky.

  • Comment number 21.

    Another key insight which came to me whi,lst watching Fox News (Always keep an eye on the enemy)

    The Tea Party & Republicans are SO committed to cutting government spending that they were prepared to take it ot the wire and lose the AAA rating.

    Why? Because they seriously believe that cutting spending and paying off the government debt will solve the problem - a nice, simple model that can be sold to the people and oust Obama & the democrats.

    Will it work? Surprisingly, no one seems interested enough to ask this question.

    Let's see. Government raises taxes, spends money and tops up the gap by borrowing. What effect does this have on the US economy? Let's imagine world without the government for a moment.

    The Tea Party overwhelm the GOP, take the Presidency and commence to dismantle the state except for very minimal domestic defence forces.

    What happens then? Firstly there's a huge tax cut - balanced by the total withdrawal of services. What happens to all the mioney?

    The effect of government taxa & spend is to redistribute purchasing power - so those who worked fror or depended on the state will now depend on charity - but the spending power they received is now in the hands of those who used to pay the taxes.

    The US already runs another, potentially even more dangerous deficit - its balance of payments. All the money in handed over in tax cuts will now be spent in the private sector - and given the state of US industry and employment, most of it will pour out of the country to pay for a big hike in imports.

    At this point the USA's trade deficit will overwhelm market confidence, the dollar will become massively devalued as the exporting nations disappear under a tidalwave of additional money that was previously kept within the domestic US economy and the United States will find that it is now in the same situation it was with government borrowing, but with a level og abject poverty that rips its society to pieces and poses such a security issue that martial law - even open civil war - is on their streets, as well as finding the country can no longer pay for its import consumption as the currency is effectively worthless.

    This scenario looks mightly like an "end of empire" event - where the irrconcilable tensions in a superpower finally rip it assunder from within. Clearly the NeoCons seem to think that it is possible to scrap what they call "socialism" with little or no downside, but the reality is that the state's role is noew essential in taking purchasing power away from%

  • Comment number 22.


    #21 rb wrote

    "The Tea Party & Republicans are SO committed to cutting government spending that they were prepared to take it ot the wire and lose the AAA rating."

    It's too late!

    They lost it yesterday

    US credit rating downgraded to AA+ by Standard & Poor's
    https://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/aug/05/ftse-slumps-us-jobs-data

    US interest rates are heading upwards.

  • Comment number 23.

    THAT'S A STRAIGHT NO. (#19)

    No.

  • Comment number 24.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 25.

    A CHAP ON 'ANY ANSWERS' THINKS MINISTERS REPRESENT US BECAUSE THEY DERIVE FROM 'OUR' ELECTED MPs.

    Standing for election, personally, followed by a year studying the Westminster Ethos, culminating in reading Heather Brookes' The silent State, has brought home to me just how illusory our 'say' in governance is.

    It is depressing to be reminded of just how brainwashed (1984) the 'educated' mind can be. We have a long, long way to go. It would help if we could, at least, face the right way!

  • Comment number 26.

    #21: richard, are you yet unaware where most of the Tea-Partyers get their "truths"? Yes, from FauxNews, but the majority of them also get 'nudges' and 'hints' from 2 other sources - alex jones, and Russia-Today.

    AJ is generally simply FauxNews's 'outer-arm', he distrusts the Govt, fights environmentalism and energy security (because that inevitably leads to the energy-wars desired by the Murdochs and Kochs), and strongly doubts the 9/11 official story (who doesn't?) but is more or less a patriot in his own way, i think.


    but those who watch and follow Russia Today are listening to a source that has as its direct intention the wholesale destruction of the West, the US, EU and allies, through internal misinformation (at best), and the deliberate creation of events like the recent stand-off in Congress.

    without even realising it, the Tea-Parters have been controlled by people who hate their country, and without having the vaguest comprehension, the Tea-Party Movement is pretty much now an organisation of traitors to the US itself, devoted to its destruction - without even the vaguest inkling this is what is happening.

    Robert Anton Wilson wrote back in the 70s that the US State was deliberately undermining its home education, for the reason that an under-educated domestic population is easier to herd and control, allowing the kkkorporates to increase their power to the current monopoly, ending any real popular democracy - he didn't feel this was sustainable, but the US survived by importing professionals and labour instead. UK readers might find echoes in this...

    but what even that great prophet/Buddha never saw, was the opportunity this offered for other Nations to enter the US media market and destroy the US from within itself. With an ignorant population unable to determine their best interests from their used toilet roll, the US Elite has laid the destruction of the American Empire they wanted to "last a thousand years" - after far less than a mere century. And they really did do it to themselves!

    --you would have thought, with American history, that they would have been ONE country that would have avoided the Class structure, but there you go.


    https://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/07/19-8
    is what is needed to pull the US back from total dissolution, but has as much chance of being implemented as Tony Blair admitting he IS a war criminal, and giving himself up to the ICC.


    so its *NOT* impossible - just quite unlikely.

  • Comment number 27.

    always a silver lining///the Tea party so discredited now after taking the country, and the world to near financial collapse because of their insane doctrine of punish everyone but me guv, now they have the worst of all worlds in that Obama will win any forthcoming election because he can play the steady statesman and they look like a volatile rabble...beautiful...couldn't have planned it better myself.....

  • Comment number 28.

    #25: there are representatives, and delegates. Delegates do exactly as we tell them to vote, representatives are there to use their judgement on our behalf.

    a delegate system therefore requires EVERY citizen/voter to be aware of ALL policy, and its ramifications, in order to instruct the delegates properly.

    a representative is chosen upon their moral and intellectual merits, so that most citizen/voters can actually have lives outside of the political sphere, allowing the representative to exercise personal judgement on their behalf.

    there is also the requirements for transparency and accountability in both cases, for the elections to be valid and meaningful.

    there are pros/cons in both structures, but the core element of course is morality. The Party system breaks down that connection (that should be direct between MP and constituents), and people largely vote for whichever Party has manage to lie best/spend more money on advertising/be supported by the press barons/get its 'message' across better.

    the morality of individual MPs is very small fry in the process, and they are chosen by ever smaller groups of interested individuals within the Parties themselves, - whose morality is often somewhat questionable themselves.

    one way around this knot is to have larger, multi-member constituencies, with weak Party lists so the electorate can choose individuals they follow, and yet also Parties they generally support, with of course proportional representation so the MPs elected closely matches the numbers of votes cast for them. That doesn't sound a very drastic change, having seats match number of votes? Or am i missing something here??

    turning MPs into delegates would require a much larger shake-up of the UK (not saying its impossible, mind!), but breaking the stranglehold the truly ancient voting system we still have would be beneficial on a myriad of other ways.

    - which is of course why dinosaurs like "Air-Brush" Dave Camoron and "Plan A" Gideon Osborne hate the entire notion so much, and why "3rd Man in the Bed" Clegg rolled over and took it both ways instead of fighting for PR, his Party's most sacred electoral plank.

  • Comment number 29.

  • Comment number 30.

    re#24: mods, are you worried about Sir Paul's reaction to that post? I hope you do not sit on it forever, again. I personally doubt he would be upset by what i said, - or he might be, but not at *me*.

    if someone at the BBC knows him, you could ask him directly if you like?

  • Comment number 31.

    DELEGATES AND REPRESENTATIVES LOOK THE SAME UNDER A ROSETTE (#28)

    I'll take integrity Mort - whatever the label. I contacted a well-known MP saying: "Do I smell integrity?" She replied: "Yes you do". I laid the full Liar Flyer import on her; she has been silent since. I could name her - but then, I have over 600 I could name, all installed as rosette stands.

    Westminster isn't working - well, not for us.

  • Comment number 32.

  • Comment number 33.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-14430109


    --------

    barry, don't you think asking our politicians for integrity is a bit much? We're not Norway or Iceland, you know. We have a proud history of incompetence, corruption, and class interest to maintain! What would the neighbours think if we suddenly started being a well-run Nation?

    it'd be totally out of character - we'd probably get sectioned!!! :o


    ------------

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14430065

    just to cut through the [bleep], the financial markets in the short-term like "structural readjustment", aka "austerity", aka "handing huge amounts of money from the poor to the rich", because those 'investors' are usually the ones that benefit from such largesse.

    in the long-term, the financial markets dislike such measures, because they strongly weaken the underlying economy.

    let me put it this way: if i give you a fiver, you are happier than before. If i invest the fiver, and give you £6 next year, you are unhappy now (you REALLY REALLY want that porsche), but happy next year because you can get the mercedes instead.

    if however i *take* £10 off you this year, and invest it, you are VERY VERY unhappy this year, but by combining it and investing in boat-building, i am able to build a whole YACHT for you to have next year, which makes you VERY VERY VERY VERY happy indeed!

    basing an entire economy on the behaviour of what is effectively an over-spoiled brat ready to throw a tantrum at any time (aka 'the financial markets' reports), is utterly ludicrous, and is only done because such a model is easy to spin for the policies the so-called 'Chancellor' wants anyway, due to his class-based, ignorant and hatred-filled ideology.

    in reality, the Nations that DO invest in good education, in new industries, in manufacturing, in resource sustainability, and do not devalue their currencies by printing huge amounts of money to be given to banksters, will, in the mid to long-term, nearly ALWAYS outperform their short-termist, economically ignorant neighbours. And 'the markets' WILL always reflect that, because the people who lead the honest investment bodies, have their OWN money bound up as well. Equally, the insurance companies will tend towards longer-term investments, and the economies that follow such behaviour!

    osborne is NOTHING more than a political hack, i wouldn't trust him to run a personal shoe-shine operation in Harlem, but my oh my, i'd like 'im to try. Do him the world of good, it would.

    if matters continue in the present course, no "plan b", then unfortunately i see such a possible future for him as being far better than the future he will actually face!

  • Comment number 34.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 35.

    QUOTE OF THE WEEK (#32 link)

    “I think the truth is coming out. Whether or not people choose to believe the truth is something I can't do anything about.”

    Nuff sed

    Thanks Bro.

  • Comment number 36.

    DRILLING DOWN IN THE NOW SPACE GOING FORWARD (#33)

    "barry, don't you think asking our politicians for integrity is a bit much?"

    Et tu Mort? I labour under the illusion that 'we the people' must stop elevating these cipher ninnies - NOT that cipher ninnies should mend their ways. I'm not THAT mad.

    I labour under the further illusion that I MAKE THAT POINT, LOUD AND CLEAR - OVER AND OVER.

    Is it you?

  • Comment number 37.

    GOD AND MAMMON (#33)

    The Christians never tell us how HomSap survived all those millennia without The Word.
    The money worshippers never explain why HomSap didn't fail for lack of banking.

    I think we should be told.

  • Comment number 38.

    When is Mr Ed Balls going to shut up. He and his socialist friends got us into this mess, converting a 94 bill trade surplus in 1997 to a 637 billion defecit by 2005; don't forget the cupboard was almost bare prior to the credit crunch; Suggest he goes on his holidays maybe to Greece where their economic strategy is clearly to his liking

  • Comment number 39.

    brossen, link#25:

    nowhere near as bad as AJs rantings, and covers some essential ground, so far largely ignored imho, but there are even obvious inferences that can be made from the data given in this report the writer has apparently completely missed. Probably, no offence, but probably because they have their own axe to grind.

    Fx, "Conversely, less concentration of CO2 is recorded when the planet experiences more volcanic activity because the large clouds of ash that the volcanoes emit help to keep the planet cooler. So, during warmer years, the levels of CO2 were smaller, while in colder years the concentrations were larger. Temperature controls CO2 levels in the atmosphere, not human emissions."

    what the writer never considered is the natural processes, the GAIAN systems theory. The planet is organised to restrict extremes, to maintain the narrow band of ideal optimism, - which may of course change slowly through many generations allowing gradual evolution to take place. Large changes are usually a massive spanner in the works that can set that process back tremendously. Think "asteroid hitting Eath" etc.

    so it is hardly surprising that the living processes adapt and modify to new conditions, too warm, and processes take out CO2 increase, if they can.

    now here's the rub: humans (us), are pouring out industrial CO2, - we are affecting the *protection* the ecosphere uses, which is grossly disturbing the natural processes. We are destroying the rainforests, we are lowering the *absolutely* essential continental water tables, we are spreading desertification, and we are destroying the oceans. And we are doing it on a vast industrial scale, helped along by the criminal over-use of oil.

    this is equivalent to deliberately injecting ourselves with AIDS, and then living lives of reckless and feckless nihilistic abandon, whilst our children are locked up in a cupboard, starving.


    however, i did note with *approval*, the writer only called for the more crackpot lunatic notions of geo-engineering projects to be shelved, rather than the automatic knee-jerk rejection of introduction of sustainable energy by alex jones:

    "There is certainly a stronger need to keep on studying climate and how it changes without proposing insane global weather modification practices such as employing nuclear weapons to reverse climate change, the spraying of toxic chemicals to block the sun from driving life on the planet, propose population reduction as a way to curb CO2 emissions, de-industrialize the planet to keep it for the animals as they are equaled to humans, adopt genetically modified organisms to feed the world because it has a smaller CO2 footprint and a host of other demented practices now being proposed by failed politicians, governments and international organizations."

    nothing in there by this writer i disagree with, those policies are indeed largely demented. A rapid and phased reduction of carbon fuels, along with energy efficiency and reallocation of resources, and we *should* be fine, and if it turns out the climate-apocalypsers were indeed right - well, at least we tried and did our best.

    in short, although the article seems very contradictory in many key areas, it appears to be a decent attempt to reach a compromise position, perhaps?? Hopefully!

  • Comment number 40.

    i seem to be losing many posts today. :(

    OHHH - the loss to Humankind!!!!!! :o


    [rofl ;) ]

  • Comment number 41.

    # various Mork

    As barrie mentioned the other day, you need to take it easy with the magic lollypops and wake up to reality !

  • Comment number 42.

    markets are there to deliver profit not reflect the economic fundamentals. markets are a representation of various bets. the idea it has 'wisdom' is a false belief.

  • Comment number 43.

    THEY TRADE NOT, NEITHER DO THEY MORTGAGE (#42)

    42 indeed.

  • Comment number 44.

  • Comment number 45.

    Look at the comments associated with this sky news article.

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/somalia-seven-shot-dead-food-scramble-085226798.html

    I still see a number of potential future tragectories and outcomes from the current crisis but when I read the comments on the above site it pushes me towards considering the worst of those as being the most likely to be realised.

    Sometimes I almost catch myself in the act of thinking that maybe the worst case scenario will be the only one that works long term, not for any moral position taken by those who enact it but by the simple effective clinical amoral brutishness of mother nature in correcting an imbalance in a place where angels fear to tread.

    The terrible beauty of that is something the ancients lived with daily, struggled against and yet being that which formed legends which quicken the pulse and moisten the eye to this day.


    To be... or not to be, that is the question in life choices as much as in the choice of leaving it altogether.






  • Comment number 46.

    #44 Mork

    The only low carbon energy we need will come from a publicly funded Severn and Morecambe Bay barrage, but that's not even on the table due to stupid wind farm projects. Wind farms are useless as they need fossil fuel backup, a carbon tax or carbon floor price will cripple what little remains of our now almost niche market energy intensive manufacturing industry. Perhaps if you understood engineering you would be able to clearly see that carbon intensive industry is vital for the viable future of our nation. What company in its right mind is going to come to the UK to set up in business if they can't trust that the electric will be on 24/7/365, current energy policy is just a pointless sacrifice on the altar of the eco-fascist quasi-religion.

    The UK is not Spain so you can't make comparisons there except to say that now Spain has its alleged green jobs their unemployment rate is 20%, the UK will soon join them unless there is a swift change of direction on energy policy.

  • Comment number 47.

    The chasm of total meltdown may not be that far away....

    I think the absence of any effective plan to stem the contagion in the EU may see a catastrophic failure in the financial system shortly and a wave of banking failures that will leave most non-core countries without comercial banks - nationalised as in Eire - with strict controls on those banks left standing - if any.

    Once the State takes over banking and the wholesale money markets no longer work then the market mechanism will cease to work, so to a considerable extent we will have moved into the post-capitalist era not through political change, but systematic failure.

    With investment and credit decisons as an arm of the state, politics would drive decisionmaking rather than speculation, so resource allocation would be aligned to social objectives.

    Think about how the UK government managed the economy during WWII - a command economy where everyone received resources to live and was expected to contribute fully in return.

    For the UK the problem will be the dislocation of economic and social life - millions losing jobs and income being thrown on the state to prevent complete breakdown.

    The government's reaction to mass unrest will determine whether we plummet into anarchy or pull together to salvage what wean and move on? I'm afraid I can't see anyone able to do this on the political horizon - can you?

  • Comment number 48.

    '18. At 08:41 6th Aug 2011, You - I have heard her 'examination' as an objective reporter involved being 'nauseated' about a politician on what appears to be a personally partisan basis.'

    Seems it was noticed.

    @MustBeRead - BBC's Stephanie Flanders, ex-girlfriend of Ed Miliband and Ed Balls, admits to being "nauseated" by George Osborne is.gd/amPuqS > https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/8685950/Stephanie-Flanders-admits-to-being-nauseated-by-George-Osborne.html

    'Not well considered' gets you out of a lot these days, professionally. In some places. What you gets you in some places to say such things is another thing entirely.

  • Comment number 49.

    Tottenham so far has really brought out the worst in the commentariat, well-supplied by opportunistic pols and complicit media that can see ratings in stirring stuff up and making yet another raft of odd linkages to suit.

    The latest wheeze seems to be making connections with a few senior pols on hols and the obvious lack of riot crushing presence that leads eventually to media-demanded statements like 'this is unacceptable'.

    Hope the BBC will not feel this is a bandwagon to join, being that it seems almost the entire organisation seems on skeleton staff for the entire school hols.

    Lord help us if Prescott seems oddly on hand and produced to pronounce. If so, I will be assured that the plot is well and truly lost.

  • Comment number 50.

    Highlights of Standard and Poor USA Downgrade Report.

    “We view the act’s measures as a step toward fiscal consolidation. However, this is within the framework of a legislative mechanism that leaves open the details of what is finally agreed to until the end of 2011, and Congress and the Administration could modify any agreement in the future. Even assuming that at least $2.1 trillion of the spending reductions the act envisages are implemented, we maintain our view that the U.S. net general government debt burden (all levels of government combined, excluding liquid financial assets) will likely continue to grow. Under our revised base case fiscal scenario–which we consider to be consistent with a ‘AA+’ long-term rating and a negative outlook–we now project that net general government debt would rise from an estimated 74% of GDP by the end of 2011 to 79% in 2015 and 85% by 2021. Even the projected 2015 ratio of sovereign indebtedness is high in relation to those of peer credits and, as noted, would continue to rise under the act’s revised policy settings.”


    So the Tea party wing of the Republicans were right , even with the cuts package semi agreed last week, S&P thinks the US debt level will still continue to grow over the coming decade and as such does not qualify for Aaa status.

    I like how the S&P report uses other Aaa holders ( including the UK) for a comparison of countries which are controlling their debt trajectories.

    This would kinda imply that Labours plan B to cut the UK deficit over a longer time period ( borrow more and spend more, for longer) would be dangerous and irresponsible, leading to a downgrade for ourselves and thus higher interest rates for everyone, snuffing out any chance of a economic recovery.

    I leave a link to a copy of the report here.
    The original report is available on the S&P website in PDF format.

  • Comment number 51.

    Only in the Daily Mail today, has "Shop looted and youths storm McDonald's and start cooking their own food" been posted as a headline to the Tottenham riots last night. I give up!
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023254/Tottenham-riots-Double-decker-bus-set-ablaze-mob-violence-hits-London.html

  • Comment number 52.

    ZIMBARDO LIVES (#51)

    Why is anyone surprised or shocked? The amount of negative energy now stored in our society, is not unlike the amount of debt in our banks. Anything can trigger a ‘spill’.

    While Westminster attends to mechanisms the mayhem will just get worse. Even I have been arrogantly wound up by Westminster’s refusal to attend to the Liar Flyer issue. I frequently joke of 'direct action' - might the joke mature?

    WESTMINSTER ISN' T WORKING

  • Comment number 53.

    The BBC coverage of the Tottenham riots is a disgrace.

    For some balance and reality I've had to tune into Sky. Anyhow, the beeb are bashing the police and blaming everybody else other than the perps.
    The sooner the BBC is scrapped the better.

  • Comment number 54.

    Lynn featherstone Lib MP and home office waller is a joke. Cleary way out of her depth; her performance was shocking.

  • Comment number 55.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 56.

    NEVER MIND THE RESPONSIBILITY - FEEL THE PENSION. (#54)

    "What kind of person would work in a place like this?"

    The kind of person that political parties love, and decent people loathe.

    THIS IS THE AGE OF PERVERSITY

  • Comment number 57.

    'Its the council cuts fault and the police'. How does the BBC get away with this reporting. Maxinne Mawhinney BBC 24 reporter is another beeb hack living in a bubble who needs to be taken to task as well..totally blatent; unbelieeeveable.
    Send the BBC reporters not to Salford to work and live but to dumps like Tottenham. They'll soon change their tune.

  • Comment number 58.

    Going to be a busy week..

    Just thought I would share the following with you posted on the Telegraph and The Guardian..

    Judging by the frequency and consistency of message on the blogosphere I think awareness of the reality behind the fantasy that is the public face of government is about to go viral in the collective consciousness.


    Sustainable growth is an oxymoron.

    Without this fantasy growth potential the UK in particular will probably, over a fairly short time, have to get used to living standards more akin to former eastern bloc countries.

    There is no escaping this actually, it is already set in stone.

    I hope our society has not been eroded to the point where that hardship will cause some form of social collapse.

    There is an alternative vision to be had which could bind the nation together again and give a meaning to the suffering to come. This vision is thoroughly researched and viable but never gets airtime because the first step is to nationalise all banks and energy companies.. the very people who, via backroom leverage, not via the ballot box wield a huge amount of power and influence in politics and policy.

    They are the ones who lobbied for the relaxation in the rules brought in after the Great Depression to stop this misery happening again.

    They are the ones whispering in the ear of politicians to intervene in Libya.. and not Syria.

    It is there for all to see. Until that backroom cabal supported by lawyer politicians is broken up we are on a hiding to nothing.

    When economies are so advanced technologically that they can no longer grow, the truth becomes exposed, the politicians, bankers and corporations can be seen naked, desperately trying to pull the same manipulative levers, but with the physical limits of growth reached they will be to no effect, the people will see them, there will be some chaos, followed by deep change.

    Good luck all descent people, time for you to come together again and form the unstoppable positive force, we are in the overwhelming majority, peaceful, reasonable, not greedy and productive people whom the parasites are utterly relient on.

    Know it, own it, this thing can be turned around in a decade and leave a positive legacy for our kids.

    If we don't.. im sorry but we will turn upon each other and well.. it does not bear thinking about.

  • Comment number 59.

    "AWARENESS" (#58)

    The Ape Confused by Language is unique; I believe he has the ability to mend a lot of the damage done by state and family. But he is unaware of this ability, and lives his life as an unreconstructed child, waiting for rescue.

    Almost all 'self help' systems have a guru at the top, lke religions. This is an intrinsic weakness.Perhaps if we demonstrated to the young, the degree of power they have over body and mind, a gentle revolution might tkeplace.

    Whether the individual 'gives their worries to God' or hands over to a hypnotist, all advantage ACTUALLY come from the individual. The transfer of power allows belief in it - I suggest.

    But, once again, the madmen who currently take charge of our lives, DO NOT WANT US TO BE EMPOWERED. So a street-level initiative is needed, BUT HOW TO AVOID THE GURU TRAP?

  • Comment number 60.

    I am just appalled at the way Democrats and Republicans in the US handled the whole downgrading charade. After much bickering and a few hundred points drop in the markets, they finally decided on a half-hearted deficit reduction plan at the eleventh hour, which triggered a further round of panic selling over the last few days. In Obama’s speech, I find it embarrassing that he actually used the words “we have the means to pay our bills”. (Implication) we don’t need to cut spending and live within our means. I suspect this is the way it is going to be at least until next year’s election: Obama and his Fed cronies are going to find innovative measures to delay fixing the problem – raise debt ceiling, fix exchange rates; change accounting rules (again); ban short selling; ban gold holding etc... The only thing they wouldn’t do however is pushing economic reforms and fiscal discipline in sincerity. The global economy never came out of the last banking crisis, and now we are entering a new phase, this time with subprime mortgage being replaced by sovereign debt. The difference I am afraid will be the size of the bailouts. Wouldn’t it cost a lot more to bail out countries than banks? Nuff sed.

  • Comment number 61.

    #59

    Ah yes 'Stranger in a Strange Land'... only through the 'out of self' perspective science fiction offers can we see ourselves.

    Therein lies 'the guru trap' also. The externalisation of the responsibility.

    Douglas Adams and Robert Heinlein knew the 'Ape' without and the 'god' within respectively.

    Free will only exists in the pre-meditated future, not in the present moment it seems.

    What a relief that must be for Schrodingers cat.

  • Comment number 62.

    At 20:23 7th Aug 2011, Jericoa wrote:

    "Going to be a busy week.."

    depends :)


    "Just thought I would share the following with you posted on the Telegraph and The Guardian..

    "Judging by the frequency and consistency of message on the blogosphere I think awareness of the reality behind the fantasy that is the public face of government is about to go viral in the collective consciousness."

    its done it before, each time a little further.


    "Sustainable growth is an oxymoron."

    nope. Depends on what the "Growth" is defined *in*.


    "Without this fantasy growth potential the UK in particular will probably, over a fairly short time, have to get used to living standards more akin to former eastern bloc countries."

    growth IS possible. On many levels. See 'The Farm For The Future' - documentary. Think about reclamation of land. Think about reclamation of companies. Think about increasing the tax-generation.


    "There is no escaping this actually, it is already set in stone." Yes. Look above.

    Can you think of an alternative?

    "I hope our society has not been eroded to the point where that hardship will cause some form of social collapse."

    i knew i liked you for a reason.


    "There is an alternative vision to be had which could bind the nation together again and give a meaning to the suffering to come. This vision is thoroughly researched and viable but never gets airtime because the first step is to nationalise all banks and energy companies.. the very people who, via backroom leverage, not via the ballot box wield a huge amount of power and influence in politics and policy."

    to demand "nationalisation" when the Govt is entirely untrustworthy, seems to me the height of not-very-sensibleness - no?


    "They [the kkorporates, mind] are the ones who lobbied for the relaxation in the rules brought in after the Great Depression to stop this misery happening again.

    "They are the ones whispering in the ear of politicians to intervene in Libya.. and not Syria.

    "It is there for all to see. Until that backroom cabal supported by lawyer politicians is broken up we are on a hiding to nothing."

    well, - yes.


    "When economies are so advanced technologically that they can no longer grow, the truth becomes exposed, the politicians, bankers and corporations can be seen naked, desperately trying to pull the same manipulative levers, but with the physical limits of growth reached they will be to no effect, the people will see them, there will be some chaos, followed by deep change."

    wrong, Technology brings growth, generally of more intellectual kinds. What *we* are seeing here is the corrupt politicians, and the bankers and kkkorporates who thought they controlled them and the political process, discovering the 'normal' manipulative levers are not working. And hopefully, the "chaos" that was supposed to induce by them, is replaced by 'order', as citizens ignore the charade and fantasy.*


    "Good luck all descent people, time for you to come together again and form the unstoppable positive force, we are in the overwhelming majority, peaceful, reasonable, not greedy and productive people whom the parasites are utterly relient on."

    :*


    "Know it, own it, this thing can be turned around in a decade and leave a positive legacy for our kids."

    :*


    *https://www.newstatesman.com/south-america/2007/08/argentina-workers-movement
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation

    the second is extremely dry, but how proud would you to read all that about the whole UK?

    you know, we're really not so far behind.


    last night watched TW 03: 04

    tonight watched BBC weekend news.

    and more DW CE.


    the BBC will probably turn on me at some point, i hope not.


    --'Schroedinger Cat' is supposed to be an expression of Reality - not the other way around.


    jeri, don't lose hope.

  • Comment number 63.

    ADVANCED TERCHNOLOGIES

    A mobile phone that sent and received calls,INFALLIBLY, across the land, would be something to crow about. So what have we got?

    Nuff sed

  • Comment number 64.

    i did say a while ago that hayekism will lead to riots [as it did under thatcher]

    the police say we should report anarchists so i would like to report anyone in the government following hayekist polices because it will result in riots of a somalia type anarchy.

    illiterates say philosophy is irrelevant but when you get it wrong and substitute inferior modes of thought because unskilled people can't tell the difference bad things happen.

    the government is un skilful in philosophy. which si the worst crime a government can commit.

  • Comment number 65.

    According to

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8687177/London-riots-live.html

    the bullet fired at a police officer before Mark Duggan was shot dead was a police–issue round.

  • Comment number 66.

  • Comment number 67.

    The BBC main homepage is currently: 'Was Tottenham's riot a cry of rage?', which is an odd one to still be pursuing as it sinks in to even the most credulous producer that a quick Google can show the 'angriest' councillor/'community leader' to usually have a bit of a relevant backstory. And the public is not buying being so upset that one liberates a 50" LCD from a local shop before showing community spirit by torching it.

    The holidaying authorities is a much better route, but best to steer clear of being too specific as the only notables in the politico-media estate seemingly not off for several weeks are Kevin Maguire and the ubiquitous Good Lord not Prescott again.

    53. At 16:45 7th Aug 2011, kevseywevsey

    At least that one made it through. I note others were not so lucky.

    Ironically, another cause for the riots I read about was the authorities not coming out to engage.

    That was deemed bad by reporters who seem to have more faith in dealings on a 1:100 basis with mobs than history supports.

    One wonders if the BBC will be as open to dialogue if licence fee payers turn up on the doorstep at night to express their concerns.

    Though we may have to wait until the delights of far flung vacation spots come to a sad conclusion and the great and good return to 'listen to our views'.

  • Comment number 68.

    OMG, there is now footage on youtube of the 16 year old girl who was beaten up by 15 police officers after she allegedly threw a rock.......(cause of the Tottenham et al riots).

  • Comment number 69.

    BBC very slow on the job i.e. Tottenham riots, SKY won hands down which I hate as I want the beeb to win everything, but this time, be it , manpower shortage, cutbacks within the organisation they let us down, the Sunday morning covergae was joke and there should be some carpeting, or are all the studio exec's on holiday too?

  • Comment number 70.

    68. At 11:26 8th Aug 2011, Mistress76uk -
    OMG, there is now footage on youtube of the 16 year old girl who was beaten up by 15 police officers after she allegedly threw a rock


    Its there a link and substantiation for that?

    .......(cause of the Tottenham et al riots).

    Because, at present, of a lot of causes being put forward by a lot of folk (community, activist or empathetic media) this doesn't seem to be top of the list. And twitter doesn't count.

    And with the BBC news team all on hols, what I seem to be getting is the 'opinion' or 'sources say' of quite a few with a bit of a back story, so forgive being a little less than convinced by some more credulous accounts even from media quarters.

    On balance I am tending to go more with those trying to calm stuff down than those trying to whip up more.

  • Comment number 71.

    #64

    So the looting and the destruction of peoples livelihoods and property is a street protest to keep the circular flows going I suppose ?

    The problem is, Keynesian economic theory depends on having the production capacity to supply your home market.
    If you don't have the production capacity to at lest supply your home market with wanted goods, all the Keynesian stimulus (cheap) money pours out of the country, making others with production capacity even richer, while making your own debts and trade deficits even worse than they were before.

    This is why Keynesian economics has been the wrong prescription over the last decade (boom) and is why Keynesian economics on steroids has been so catastrophic during the recession (Bust).

    So this is not even about which economic theory is better , it is about those that advocate Keynesian economics not understanding its basic requirements for it to even have supposedly worked.

    I suggest Keynes will have been turning in his grave at such a misunderstanding and misuse of his theory during the past decade.

  • Comment number 72.

    MPs DON'T UNDERSTAND, AND THEY DO NOT ACCESS THOSE WHO DO

    As I walked back from the Post Office/shop, a short while ago, 'nihilistic youth' suddenly threw half a can of drink hard at the ground to try to burst it. I hazard a guess that few - if any - of our politicians know what it FEELS like inside such a head. Multiply by 10, and you have what UNCOMPREHENDING Nick Clegg calls: "NEEDLESS OPPORTUNISTIC VIOLENCE." All those PPEs in Westminster and not a scrap of applied philosophy.

    I have pointed out before: Teenage chimp males run amok as a regular RELEASE of maleness. Chimpssmash foliage - The Ape Confused by Language has,t got much foliage, he makes do with structures (and Man's Red Fire, ofcourse).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIv7sBUkzgs 1'18" in

    DISMANTLE WESTMINSTER - INSTALL WISDOM

 

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