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Friday 26 August 2011

Sarah McDermott | 11:59 UK time, Friday, 26 August 2011

Tonight we will have the latest on Libya from our correspondent Tim Whewell, who is currently in Benghazi, which for now remains home to the National Transitional Council's headquarters.

And we will be speaking to the NTC's deputy leader Abdul Hafiz Ghoga live on the programme.

Plus former Daily Telegraph editor Charles Moore has done an authored film for us in which he explains where he thinks the Conservatives are going wrong.

Afterwards Danny Finkelstein and Noreena Hertz will discuss his conclusions.

All of that, and our Economics editor Paul Mason in the presenter's chair for the first time - 10.30pm on BBC Two.

Comments

Page 1 of 2

  • Comment number 1.

  • Comment number 2.

    Re my #30 from yesterdays blog

    It would appear that you cannot mention the BBC's "correspondent" in Tripoli, John Simpson....in any light.

    Draw your own conlusions.

  • Comment number 3.

    this is all going to go pear-shaped, I can sense it, reasons? Just look at Iraq, Afghanistan and the complete idiocy of NATO thinking plus our own disasters at the foreign office who think that putting the SAS in on the ground and trying to disguise the fact kids anybody, we did all that stuff in Iraq, result.....mayhem, so we are to repeat the madness why oh why do we keep repeating the same bloody mess time after time, why can't we be like the Swiss and just make clocks....

  • Comment number 4.

    Paul fronting the show tonight...at last!

  • Comment number 5.

    musev wrote @2:

    "It would appear that you cannot mention the BBC's "correspondent" in Tripoli, John Simpson....in any light."

    I'll give it a go in a minute museV.

  • Comment number 6.

    Is John simpson a spokesmouth for the islamists?

  • Comment number 7.

    Now the rebels are on the offensive no-one cares about 'civilian casualties' any more. Of course there will be plenty of civilians on the receiving end of the rebel rockets and artillery over the next few weeks, but they don't count do they?

  • Comment number 8.

    Perhaps I'm pretty ignorant, but I'm more worried about what's happening here than Libya, this man makes some good points.

    https://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100102127/why-are-we-turning-england-into-one-big-suburb/

  • Comment number 9.

    Oh and we can't afford to get involved in another conflict such as Afganistan, which is where Libya is going.....

    ............we as a nation can't even afford to go shopping anymore.......now that is saying something! ; )

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2030252/Shops-report-worst-trading-40-years-amid-fears-fall-consumer-spending-lead-Britain-recession.html

  • Comment number 10.

    @8

    Before the last election Cameron spent several years going round telling everyone that the only way to stop Labour's plans to scrap all the planning regulations and their plans of building houses on the green spaces around where 'you' lived was to vote Conservative. I remember talk of introducing referendum where the local population would have to vote 90% in favour of any new development for it to get the go ahead. Got plenty of mileage out of it as I recall.

    He sounded so sincere didn't he?
    Did you believe him?
    I bet there were plenty who did.

    I remember after the Lib-Dems got wiped at the local elections and lost the AV referendum the government rushed out a story about how over 60% of the Lib-Dem manifesto had made it into the coalition agreement.
    That immediately made me ask what percentage of Labour's manifesto had made it in there as well...welfare reform, cuts to housing benefit, increases in tuition fees, more private sector involvement in health and education, tearing up the planning regulations...

    One day the penny will drop and people will realise that all three parties are the same. At a general election we have three choices to vote for the same party, there is zero difference between any of them.

  • Comment number 11.

    It's that "liberation moment" again, isn't it?

    Remember the ignominious retreat of the Soviets in Afghanistan, leaving the "brave Mujaheddin" the victors after the West armed, equipped and trained them?

    They rapidly returned to what most of them were all along - Islamic fundamentalists who held political and religious views straight out of the dark ages.

    The Taliban then came together and did what every group with any power had done since time began in Afghanistan - warlords took over and vied for political and economic control of the drugs trade and the country.

    We turned our back on them and left this landlocked backwater with no oil - so of no interest - to simply stew in its own juices, so it rapidly turned into the cesspit that al Quaeda bred its terrorists in.

    What of Libya? It's got oil, so IMHO we'll pay more attention, but without a doubt there are plenty of fundamentalists in the ranks of the rebels and just over the border in Egypt there is the Muslim Brotherhood in force and plenty of other anti-western forces not that far away.

    The doctrine that my enemy's enemy is my friend has been proved wrong over and over again - there is nothing to say the new Libyan government will be progressive or reactionary - we don't know, but the experience of western dabbling in arab politics has been a catalogue of disasters, from the autocrats of Saudi Arabia to the despots of Iraq and many other tyrannies we have aided and abetted, from the corrupt monarchy of the Shah in Iran to the complete abrogation of responsibility by the British in Palestine, it's time we learnt our lesson and stopped trying to "stitch up" the arab people yet again.

  • Comment number 12.

    Charles Moore had better be ready to chuck out points in short order because there are so many things the Tories are doing wrong, you'd need a week to cover them all.

    There is however a single Achilles Heel which I'm sure he won't address- the belief that government is the root cause of the nation's problems and hacking it back will allow the individual, the community and the private sector to expand into the space and sort itself out. This is the nub of modern conservatisim and it is a dangerous delusion.

    This is a quasi-religious belief - it relies on the magic of the market to create economic pressure which wil change behaviour in a positive way, and that without the "dead hand" of the State resting on our lives, we will in some mystical way be "free" to change our own lives and that of our communities.

    This ideology flies in the face of all human experience, the development of civilisation and economic development, all of which were the product of the rise of the nation state and its action in areas like public health where ONLY action by the State could produce changes like the ending of Cholera in London, or the Clean Air Act which ended the lethal cocktail of smog that killed thousands every winter in our cities.

    This ideology is that a) the State can't produce worthwhile change and b) the best way to improve society is to reduce the level of regulation imposed on it.

    The "Washington Concensus" of deregulation, light touch regulation of the banking system and privatisation of state enterprises has been tested to destruction - we should know - every person in the UK is now in debt to the tune or £40k each to bail out the failed, deregulated banks.

    Now we see this obsession with deregulation being applied to new areas like planning and the replay if the failed Enterprise Zones of the 1980s, which simply move jobs and investment from one place to another without changing the amount of activity one jot.

    It's the same mania for limiting regulation which allowed News International's NOTW to run amok and snow the self-regulating Press Complaints Commission for years - the mania which led to rail privatisation which literally killed hundreds of people and has left us with the most expensive rail network in Europe.

    George Osborne is trapped in this delusion - he won't do ANYTHING to promote growth because he doesn't believe tht state has any role in doing so, other than disappearing as rapidly as possible from the scene - then the magic of the market will take over.

    I bet Mr Moore's critiqu

  • Comment number 13.

    I can't help speculating just how long the eco-fascist leaning BBC can hold out before its dragged kicking and screaming into reporting the latest facts regarding the Corporate Nazi Climate Scam. The link in #1 above and this:-

    https://www.uah.edu/news/newspages/campusnews.php?id=564

    From the end of July have not yet been reported on the science / environment page of the BBC news web site, but then what do you expect from a broadcaster who attempts to portray that footage of crowds in India are in fact people celebrating the success of the rebels in Libya ?

  • Comment number 14.

  • Comment number 15.

    #8 ecolizzy wrote:

    “Perhaps I'm pretty ignorant, but I'm more worried about what's happening here than Libya…” As a parent and grandparent, so am I liz; and

    #28barrie:

    “Decent Dave issued a 'contract' before the 2010 election - it is now absent from various official sites. However, Finchley dozed off”
    “I suppose coalition nullified all that - eh Dave?”

    Dave’s ‘promise’ (echoed by his garden of rosettes) included:
    ‘Control immigration, reducing it to the levels of the 1990s – meaning tens of thousands a year, instead of the hundreds of thousands a year under Labour.’

    It wasn’t so much that the coalition nullified all that, rather that the EUSSR prevented it from ever happening.

    The following extracts from the website They Work for You are typical:-

    “Mike Freer MP, Finchley and Golders Green voted against requiring each new Parliament to reaffirm the key provisions within the European Union Bill.”
    “Mike Freer MP, Finchley and Golders Green voted with the majority (No)”.
    “The majority of MPs voted against inserting the amendment tabled by William Cash, which would have inserted the following into Clause 18 of the European Union Bill:
    'The sovereignty of the United Kingdom Parliament in relation to EU law is hereby reaffirmed'
    He also tabled a second amendment, which would have added the words
    'and not by virtue of a common law principle'
    to the end of the Clause. This second amendment was also defeated in the same vote.
    Mr Cash was concerned that there was an increasing sense in academic and legal circles that Parliament derived its power from common law (law made by judges, and that follows precedent), rather than being itself Sovereign.”

    The defeatists argue that Britain, by an Act of Parliament, accepted EU laws. Yet Germany has a statute that protects its own laws. Why cannot we? The clause should have been accepted as a STATEMENT OF INTENT for the guidance of the British Bill of Rights Commission. Instead, that body is totally divided and has recently produced a worthless, meaningless 25 pages of ………nothing.
    Also, Bill Cash’s concerns about judges making laws (e.g. their interpretation of HR Act) is well founded; yet that clause was also defeated!

    Is this cowardice – or conspiracy?

  • Comment number 16.

  • Comment number 17.

    #10 wrote:
    'One day the penny will drop and people will realise that all three parties are the same. At a general election we have three choices to vote for the same party, there is zero difference between any of them'

    Why vote for any of the Big 3? That was the mistake of the century. I advocated VOTE RADICAL and Vote FOR AV (as a step toward PR) to get some MPs that will represent the views of their electorate and not slavishly follow the rosette whips.

  • Comment number 18.

    'British Tornado jets have fired precision-guided missiles against a large bunker in Libyan leader Col Muammar Gaddafi's hometown of Sirte, the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) has said.'

    -----------------

    A slight step over the "humanitarian action" threshold don't you think?

    If the rebels are in the ascendancy, why this action - regime change anyone?

  • Comment number 19.

  • Comment number 20.

    I wish people who are totally ignorant about Islam and its history would not pontificate about Islamism in Libya, and make spurious and misleading references to Afghanistan. The differences between Islam in Libya and Kabul are about as great as the differences between the Greek Orthodox Church and Jerry Falwell. Also, although there are religious and tribal differences in Libya, there is much more of a common identity and culture than there is in Afghanistan, or even Iraq.

    If you don't know, or care, about about such terms as sharif, sayyid, Maghreb, Ismaili, Fatimid, Senussi, sufi, etc, then STFU unless you're prepared to inform yourself!

  • Comment number 21.

    Perhaps its just a symptom of just how desperate that the BBC has become to preserve their corporate illusion is the fact that they have bounced an Alex Jones Link ( #19 ) with clear evidence that " 9/11 hero's " are barred from attending the 10th anniversary event. Alex alleges that its got something to do with the fact that the majority of the people who went to help, fire, police, medics now no longer believe the official story line. It would appear that they are being treated like suspected terrorists and denied health care unless they submit to terror screening, treated like second class citizens for their non belief.

  • Comment number 22.

    THAT DUBYA BUSH WILL BE AT 'GROUND ZERO' FOR THE 10TH ANNIVERSARY TELLS ALL. (#21)

    To immunise yourself from the Big 9/11 Falsehood watch these clips

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZEvA8BCoBw

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88JQL4esHFg

    To thine own self be true. Thou canst not then be false to any man.

  • Comment number 23.

    Where are the Conservatives going wrong?

    One big area, surely, is that they are trying to justify and exacerbate the growing gap between the very wealthy and the rest of us. Tax dodger Osborne is leading the charge with Boris lending support, attacking the 50p top tax rate.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14515518

    Clegg for once is (allegedly) resisting:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14543444

    I remember the days of super-tax in the 50 and 60s. There was much lower unemployment, we made far more of our own goods, and there were no riots in the streets. Apart from the moral case, it was able to be collected efficiently in those days, so why not now? Here is a Spiegel article arguing that higher taxes are essential for democracy to function:

    https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,782454,00.html

    BTW, I received an email today saying that a post from 26th April had been removed for being "off-topic". I see a number of posts in the thread had been similarly nuked.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/fromthewebteam/2011/04/tuesday_26_april_2011.html

    If something has been in the public domain for that long, what is the point of removing it? It seems very sinister, almost like trying to airbrush history. Our comments may or may not be relevant or right, but the blog archive provides a snapshot of our concerns which may one day constitute an important historical resource.

    Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.

  • Comment number 24.

    VERY SINISTER (#23)

    If you watch my first link, at post 22 above, there is a point where the unavoidable truth is spelled out: "THIS WAS PLANNED IN ADVANCE". But it was SOLD to the world as a snap attack, AND STILL IS.

    I suggest the symptoms we are noting are of a DISEASE already well embedded in the media tissue.

    We are being groomed to, ultimately, love Big Brother.

  • Comment number 25.

    "....BTW, I received an email today saying that a post from 26th April had been removed for being "off-topic". I see a number of posts in the thread had been similarly nuked. ..."

    I have had two similarly removed from March and April. I can't be bothered to try and figure out why. My time is much more valuable elsewhere. Unlike the time/money allocated to BBC mods.

    They must really be rattled.

  • Comment number 26.

  • Comment number 27.

    An interesting debate on tax here, started by John Quiggin.

    https://crookedtimber.org/2011/08/22/soaking-the-rich/

    I love the inspiration for the blog title: "Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made." (Kant).

  • Comment number 28.

    HAS THE CURRENT EQUIVALENT OF BLAIR'S ATTACK-DOG CALLED ON BBC? (#25)

    Greg Dyke and a couple of others were 'up the road' before you could say 'Dodgy Dossier'. So maybe just a whiff of a threat now suffices?

    Lucky Libya - they have all this to come - after the slaughter.

    In passing: all the blog needs is to be made a ‘People’s Annexe’ of Westminster, with Parliamentary Privilege extended to us. Why not? Are we not, manifestly, as HONOURABLE as they?

  • Comment number 29.

    I can't help speculating as to whether the recent riots were due to the fact that it has got into the " collective subconscious " that the British establishment is rotten to the core. Perhaps the recent riots were a reflection of the intellectual dishonesty in politicians and the main stream media in general, just go out and reenact the anarchistic computer games you have enjoyed playing, everything is virtual reality now ?

  • Comment number 30.

    SUCCINCT AND SOUND BROSSEN99 (#29)

    As we have seen, Westminster's answer is 'PROFIT MOTIVATED LOVE'. How very New Millennium.

    Weep Britain.

  • Comment number 31.

    Test, the blog in not working right

  • Comment number 32.

  • Comment number 33.

  • Comment number 34.

    I remember Prince Charles launching the Prince's Trust: He wanted "to help young people help themselves". I think his message may have been misinterpreted.

    Mr Finkelstein chairs a "think tank"? His words were all propaganda sound-nibbles, revealing no evidence of "thought" or insight, especially on the origins of debt.

    Come on Paul, get the people from Positive Money on to debate the banking system, or let's have a special. "in the last 40 years, the amount of money circulating has increased by x000% WHERE has it come from? WHO created it?"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGkAFDKbBzo

  • Comment number 35.

    Barrie #30

    I'm being silly now but it just crossed my mind as to the possibility that agents of the stock market parasites engineered the riots in order to give a false boost to high street sales data for August. It was said to be a potentially bad month for the market in general but it would look good and boost prices when the options are due in September. However, it might not last that long, nearly fell over again today but for the realisation that Bernanke had not technically ruled out further " quantitative easing " in the near future. It looks like ( we the taxpaying people ) are going to have to stump up for a further enhancement of the Corporate Nazi Welfare State for the Stock Market Parasites.

  • Comment number 36.

    THE END OF THE ENGLISH - AND ENGLISH AS A LANGUAGE? (#33)

    Presumably when all the variants of Manglish merge, we shall speak Pidgin of some kind. I suppose it will be allowed for examinations and studied in its own right to degree level. Will Shakespeare be translated?

    My sons - may you forgive me.

  • Comment number 37.

    #35

    Its time to start talking seriously about a default on the national debt and formulate a credible plan to come through what is bound to be a period of uncertainty, the last thing we need is for anarchy to break out. Like Libya, we need a system to ensure that everyone is warm, dry and has a full belly, utilities are kept operating etc.

  • Comment number 38.

    @36 Language evolves Barrie, though undoubtedly we can - and should - try to have some influence upon its evolution.

    Would Chaucer have considered Shakespeare's English to be Manglish?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE0MtENfOMU

    Strangely enough, the ME on the clip reminds me of the way that Arabic speakers are prone to mispronounce our tongue! ;-D

  • Comment number 39.

    BUT NEVER BEFORE LIKE THIS? (#38)

    Lizzy's link at post 33 is relevant Sasha. Damian Thompson is disdainful of those who compare the Hugenot and other influxes with the current flood. Of course language does - and has - evolved. But not like this, I reckon.

    150 languages spoken in Reading? 50-odd in one school? Nature would never promote such stress. This is perverse man's doing.

  • Comment number 40.

    #39 I keep wondering about this flood Barrie.

    At times I've watched the Yesterdays channel, and I'm frankly amazed at how white we once were, it's quite astonishing. We seemed to be far more harmonious then, somehow a nation and community.

    Often the subject is wartime, people quietly queing, making do and mending, giving up for others, just what would happen here now if we had such a major war. Would we all divide into our ethnic group? The government could not put the enemies (whichever ones) into holding camps, too many of them, and who would support whom? We have no idea who lives here, or what they think of our way of life.

    I hear and read various reports, and my feeling is our incomers all hate each other for various reasons, be they religious, or ethnic disagreements. Look at the number of murders (around 600 a year I believe) here now amongst the new intake, they are often killing their own race or the ethnic group that they hate.

    Where are the English in all this, sidelined, by successive governments. We don't count, and as we were such nice polite people, who obeyed the law, and worked hard (we are still the hardest and longest hours workers in europe) we are ignored and told we are racist and xenophobic at every opportunity.

    Not one party will stand up for the English and their way of life.

    Ask my daughter about teaching multi ethnic and religious classes, she is always having to quietly explain that no you don't insult each others religion, or way of dressing and life, it's very difficult to explain to teenagers that all religions and people are equal and that in Britain we are all equal, they don't want to know. They have a vehement dislike of each other.

  • Comment number 41.

    MEANWHILE WESTMINSTER CORRUPTION IS PERVERSELY DEFENDED (#40)

    Hi Lizzy. Your anguish is palpable. But Westminster is not concerned with our wellbeing. Even if they appoint a 'Minister for Wellbeing' (Dave might already have one) being a Westminster Creature, the Minister is not motivated by human empathy, but by Westminster Rivalry. They come up with some ill-configured scheme (oops - initiative) lay it on us, and wait to SEE WHAT HAPPENS. We are laboratory rats in a maze - bred for experiments. Almost ALL fail.

    I have just presented the, highly visible, Conservative apologist, Tim Montgomerie, with the Liar Flyer which says, unequivocally: "A HUNG PARLIAMENT WOULD MEAN 5 MORE YEARS OF GORDON BROWN".

    https://www.electionleaflets.org/leaflets/5165/

    This was always a lie, from the day some Conservative weasel jotted it down. It was printed and distributed in thousands, and now MPs who availed themselves of it, sit in Westminster. Tim's reply was: "IS GORDON BROWN STILL PRIME MINISTER?" My MP uses similar illogic. Do they all get classes - at our expense?

    There, to my mind, is the ROOT PROBLEM. The Westminster club holds us in contempt. They believe (though probably incorrectly) they are carp-proof, regardless of how the country falls apart (after all, they are not selected for wisdom).

    While this Westminster Dynasty, and its perverse ethos, endure, England has no hope of anything but dis-ease, of every kind, in the foreseeable future. This blog bears eloquent testimony to the truth of that assertion. But Big Brother has the media wrapped up – without ‘air time’ it will take a miracle.

    When September the 11th arrives, just listen to the silence regarding the aggrieved families who lost kin and loved ones in that heinous State Crime. They clamour for a PROPER enquiry, but Big Brother loves us all too much, to have us know the truth.

  • Comment number 42.

    I must complement Charles Moore on his forthright critique of the Right's blind support for the feral rich - a brave and principled stand I'd say.

    Yet the debate is always counched as free market capitalism or monolithic state control - surely there is another permutation?

    Finklestein's assertion that the state controls 40%+ of the country's GDP, so we don't live by naked capitalism holds some water, unitl you stand back a bit and look at what the State SPENDS this money on - defence is huge, health is simply a less wasteful way of providing medical care for all the population, compared to US healthcare which barely covers 50% and is many time more expensive per person, then you've got the spending which goes straight to the private sector suppliers, and service like education & training which also are a more efficient way than private provision.

    For years we were told it was simply impossible to spend the sort of money needed to address our social housing problems or move to renewable energy, clean up the environment or do something about child and pension poverty, yet overnight we found £40,000+ for every man, woman & child in this country to bail out the super-rich, who still go on paying themselves massive bonuses and salaries in the Alice in Wonderland world of the City of London, aided and abetted by their pet political party, the Bankers' Party - or as you & I know them "The Tories".

    There's also the continuing and very rarely challenged assertion about our national debt -Brown bailed out the banks with £100 BN+ which is now debt, but we also OWN £110 BN+ of bank assets which ought to be set against this borrowing - indeed if we pledged to sell off these holdings over 5 years and earmarked the proceeds for debt repayment, a) this is credible to the markets and b) we wouldn't need to savage public services in this way.

    The bank bailout was the direct result of the massive fraud carried out in the US of knowingly lending to people who couldn't repay, then securitising these mortgages and selling them on, then using these worthless securities to borrow yet more money to repeat the process - knowing that the US taxpayer willl HAVE to bail out the banks or watch the entire capitalist financial system meltdown.

  • Comment number 43.

    @39 Sorry Barrie, I was being slightly flippant whilst making a point. As you know, my normal tendency is towards linguistic pedanticism.

    As for the Telegraph article, the title, "live birth of gangland", shows that there is no intent to be objective. Thomson is also selective in his treatment of immigration. He makes no mention at all of Ireland. Certainly so far as English industrial cities are concerned, the large 19th century immigrations from southern Ireland had a huge demographic and religious impact which still continues. This was a cause of huge anxiety, controversy, prejudice and strife in Victorian England and afterwards.

    "Cartoons in Punch portrayed the Irish as having bestial, ape-like or demonic features and the Irishman, (especially the political radical) was invariably given a long or prognathous jaw"

    "the "ape-like" Celt became something of an malevolent cliche of Victorian racism. Thus Charles Kingsley could write

    "I am haunted by the human chimpanzees I saw [in Ireland] . . . I don't believe they are our fault. . . . But to see white chimpanzees is dreadful; if they were black, one would not feel it so much. . . ." (Charles Kingsley in a letter to his wife, quoted in L.P. Curtis, Anglo-Saxons and Celts, p.84). "

    https://www.victorianweb.org/history/race/Racism.html

    The sectarianism in Scotland, and the religious educational apartheid in many English cities is the legacy of both the immigration and the hatred whipped up by polite society. Thompson, his pen dripping poison in every sentence, carries on in this disgraceful vein,

    I'm not saying there isn't a problem. However, the legacy of Empire has created a new ethnic mix in the UK. We can deal with it humanely, and build a new nation, or we can adopt Nazi style policies, in which case there will be bloody conflict and a rump nation I shall be ashamed to be associated with!

  • Comment number 44.

    CAN YOU REALLY SEPARATE UK AND USA REGARDING ROOT CAUSE? (#42)

    My (limited) understanding is that Brown had an abiding warmth for America and spent many holidays there. I feel sure he was not discussing the Arctic Monkeys while there. If he did not get ANY feel for the impending mess, then he was not the financial giant he purported to be. (This could explain a lot.) Further, did I not hear that some UK female devised the ultimate tool of global, financial collapse?

    I think 'power/money', INTERNATIONALLY, chose not to see what they could not handle. Brown put his head under the bedclothes and repeated: "I have abolished boom and bust" (probably while sucking his thumb).

  • Comment number 45.

    'DIFFERENCISM' AND THE AGE OF THE SCANNER (#43)

    Pax Sasha. I always read your posts with close attention.

    You probably know that I coined 'differencism' as a more useful term than racism. It also covers the stupid label 'homophobia', and even football hooligans.

    I am much persuaded that your Ape and my Ape, if put into a scanner and presented with the kind of human difference ROUTINELY PERTAINING in a number of geographical areas, we would have more in common than you might like to know.

    My guess is that the male, long required to defend the in-group, is primed at a deep level to regard ALL 'individuals of difference' with anything from contempt to homicidal aggression.

    We are still the Ape Confused by Language.

  • Comment number 46.

    Trouble is Sasha, you are always looking at life from the educated, middle and upper class viewpoint.

    People at the bottom haven't a clue of what you write about, they just know that their houses and jobs, and school and hospital places are being taken by any other persons from abroad. Doesn't matter where from, they just know they are being sidelined.

    I know a lot of working class people, many benefit receipiants, many destroyed by the labour party in particular, the one they thought would look out for them. They saw what Thatcher did to them, and thought ah bliar will work for us, but hell no, he just helped the rich yet again, and looked out for future (JF) voters. How can these multi millionaires have a clue about the bottom end of our society.

    These poor people don't having feelings or aspirations, they should just damn well work hard long days for low money, and if they won't we'll bring in JF to do the jobs you won't do, I'm furious that this phrase is so banded about.

    Kids in education when labour were in, were given false aspiration, they all thought they were going to be brain surgeons, lowly jobs were looked down on, even though much needed by society generally. To me the dustbin man is just as important as any lawyer, we'd all die amongst the mess without them.

  • Comment number 47.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 48.

    @45 "My guess is that the male, long required to defend the in-group, is primed at a deep level to regard ALL 'individuals of difference' with anything from contempt to homicidal aggression"

    Interesting Barrie. I suspect that it's the truth but not the whole truth. History is full of examples where different human tribes furthered their interests by alliances and exchange of mating partners. Judging from my own family history, both sides, the urge to miscegenation is quite strong - a non-verbalised "I wouldn't mind improving HER gene pool!" And, given a chance, many females seem happy to cooperate! ;-D

  • Comment number 49.

    The article states “free market” , then talks about oligarchy and monopolies, which are contradictory of the term "Free Market".

    Why politicians give so much weight to media outlets is because they want their message to get out. How else can politicians inform the voters of what they stand for when the media either don't want to talk to them or want to talk about something else entirely ( say some Westminster title tattle ).

    How many times were we poor viewers subjected to “Mr Prudence” “Iron Chancellor” “Golden Rules” from NN ?

    I recall debates on the economy barely getting past the sloganisms and on the rare moments they did get past that point, it turned into who was going to offer more benefits in forms of state handouts to the key voters groups effected rather than dealing with the underlining structural problems.

    This not only debased debate and evidently the economy ,it also debased our democracy.

    A recent example of limited published opinions could be the Euro Crisis , when was the last time UKIP was invited on to debate the political ramifications of the crisis with a pro EU government minister ?

    When was Global Warming theory and its taxes last debated with supporters and non supporters ?

    Where are the real debates of our time taking place ?

    So the media in general must also take some of the blame for in part creating this environment.

    And as for looking back on a decade of raw capitalism with rose tinted glasses on, I suggest people refresh their minds by watching this Panorama from 2005, six months after the then general election.

    Real media version

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

    Windows media version

    [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

    Nu-labours was applying third way politics. A mixture of both capitalism and socialism. I personally believe that socialism , however undesirable ,is just unaffordable. It has been tried by funding it through ownership of production and now it has been tried with capitalism , both have failed spectacularly.

    Maybe we should give capitalism a try at some point , freeing the Monopolies and Merger commission to investigate who it likes, be it state or private service providers ?
    Maybe then we would get a true dynamic economy with opportunities for all to take part in ?

  • Comment number 50.

    Fix for #49
    2005 Panorama programme can be seen from the "watch" link on this web page.

    https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/4280818.stm

    Really Mr Moderator , why don't you like direct links to the BBCs own mms or rtsp services ?

  • Comment number 51.

  • Comment number 52.

    Following Charles Moore's critique on NN last night of the feral rich and re-reading Peter Oborn's piece at the start of the riots, it does strike me as rather odd that both these commentators come from the libertarian politics of Hayek who wanted to shrink the state as far as possible, whilst the man who did most to warn of the rise of the authoritarian state, George Orwell in "Big Brother", then said he'd rather have a imperfect state than hand real economic and political power over to the rich - prophetic words that now ring true half a century later.



    It seems clear to me that Hayk's assertion of the need for free enterprise and "the minimalist" state in the the "Road to Serfdom" got it exactly 180 degrees wrong - the feral poor in the Uk are rapidly returning to feudal serfdom of their ancestors, being "economically cleansed" from our cities by benefits capping, forced into taking any work available at obscenely low wages and having their standard of living drastically cut back as the result of the feral rich's stranglehold on the economy and political process.



    You can't argue for deregulation, shrinking the state and that the individual's liberty is paramount, then bewail how that liberty is then abused to destroy the moral and economic fibre of the country that allowed it in the first place.



    Iceland is an abject lesson - only a dozen greedy men exercising their "right to free enterprise" created a financial greed machine monster that then effectively bankrupted an entire nation.



    The feral rich have no loyalty to the UK - they are world citizens - they may like London, but it's just another place to engage in their hedonstic rake's progress around the world, whilst taking profit whenever and wherever the can, then offshoring their money to avoid making any real contribution to the society that gives them that freedom.



    Where will this lead us?



    It is impossible for the Uk to compete in a globalised world with economies who rig their exchange rate, repress their people, provide no welfare system, pay slave labour wages and are prepared to massively damage their environments with pollution. If we go on with laissez faire trade, we will simply see our manufacturing wither to next to nothing.



    This reality must be faced, or there will be no future where the feral poor can be helped to pull themselves out of the cycle of crime and welfare dependency - as must the ability of the feral rich to abuse society financially and morally be curbed an

  • Comment number 53.

    STEPHANIE FLANDERS ON A BIKE - AGAIN - AGAIN - AGAIN - AGAIN (#50link)

    Was that some monetary metaphor?

    Nostalgic to be reminded of the fetish for interviews in great voids - an excellent metaphor!

    And Ed Balls; answering anything but the question put. Stark reality - no metaphor required.

    Um - what was the programme actually about? I got distracted.

  • Comment number 54.

  • Comment number 55.

    the nhs etc is funded by debt not by the tax avoiders. so to get the nhs money is borrowed at interest off whom?

    labour are a black hole when it comes to this debate.

    the real debate must be the war china is waging on us.

    currently its 10 yuan to £1. That makes the uk ten time stronger economically than china. when it should be the other way round. So no matter how efficient the uk becomes china can outbid us in the market place. To be on the same level as china uk people should only get 10% of their wages. so someone on 100k should only get 10k etc. that is the reality of the exchange rate

    china is droping fx bombs on us and they destroy welath and jobs in the uk as surely as any real bombs.

    the markets are defective and cannot fulfil their function and readjust the world economies because china is at war with us. the uk is being squeezed like someone caught in a boa constrictor.

  • Comment number 56.

  • Comment number 57.

    #45-48
    Excuse my intrusion on your exchanges, but I have experienced the desire to ‘share the gene pools’ of a number of very attractive ethnic ladies, whilst still being opposed to mass immigration.
    All the above comments are valid – particularly in relation to the male of any species, who would naturally not welcome competition from intruders. In my case I did welcome the envy of fellow males whenever I had the pleasure of escorting a ravishing African or Asian beauty to a party or pub. My differencism has now manifested itself in a ‘birds of a feather’ syndrome as nearly all of our friends are mixed-marriage couples and with mixed-race offspring.

    The significant difference between mixed marriages and deliberate multiculturalism is that of individual choice, and none of us voted for a complete swamping of our national culture. Apart from the difference of perspective to which ecolizzy refers there is also that of age. There are still a few of us who can really say (with nostalgia) “we knew England during the ’40s, several generations before the excesses of social security ‘benefits’ (?) and the ‘we welcome diversity’ age grew into the present nightmare scenario.”

    My solution will be to reverse the situation like many emigrants and welcome diversity by enjoying it in its natural habitats in distant lands.

  • Comment number 58.

    Corporate Nazi's in government angling to precipitate the equivalent of the Poll Tax riots again, any excuse to introduce a version of martial law, or just wall the unemployed into ghetto's like the eco-fascists always planned ?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14692596

  • Comment number 59.

  • Comment number 60.

    Is it wrong to note 100m winners are always black?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14679657

    Assuming that this success is driven by genes rather than environment, there is a rather obvious inference to make - black people are naturally better sprinters than white people. Indeed, it is an inference that seems obligatory, barring considerations of political correctness. But here's the thing. This inference is not merely false - it is logically flawed. And it has big implications not merely for athletics, but for the entire issue of race relations in the 21st Century.

  • Comment number 61.

    Continued


    This reality must be faced, or there will be no future where the feral poor can be helped to pull themselves out of the cycle of crime and welfare dependency - as must the ability of the feral rich to abuse society financially and morally be curbed and be forced to recognise that with thier right to freedom comes a duty of responsibility to their society and nation.



    The "freedom" demanded by libertarian politics and the touching quasi-religious belief in the "magic of the market" to provide economic pressure as the only legitimate curb on the rich has proved to be a dangerous delusion - what it has delivered is moral, political and economic anarchy.



    Unfortunately with its warts, abusers and inefficiencies, the only alternative to anarchy is representative democratic government that regulates, redistributes and intervenes.



    Phliip Green et al should pay a fair share of their UK taxes, or leave our shores and those that choose to leave should then pay a much higher level of taxes on exported profits.



    The banking system and the greed of the City is beyond saving - at the next, inevitable crisis the banking system should be mutualised and forced to return to plan old banking services.



    We cannot go on being a retail market for a tidal wave of imports whilst we cannot produce enough to pay for them and gainfully employ our people doing so, whilst racking up personal, community and nation debt to pay for it.



    So come on Charles & Peter, we need a new politics based on A SUSTAINABLE SOCIETY, A SUSTAINABLE ECONOMY and A SUSTAINABLE ENVIRONMENT.



    Help the Left to ditch its obsession with central control and the Right to refuse Hayek et al, then maybe, just maybe, we can build a future here based on our shared values of fairness, decency, objectivity and compassion.

  • Comment number 62.

    #58 your link:

    The headline sounds rather harsh, but there is a need to review the entire basis of council tax.

    A separate ‘mansion tax’ should not be a one-off hit on a few super-rich individuals; alternatively the number of council tax bands could be increased with the tax rates more in line with the size and value of properties.

    In England, there are currently 8 payment bands, commencing with Band ‘A’ for properties with an assumed capital value of ‘below £40,000’ through to the top band ‘H’ for properties ‘over £320,000’. There is no upper limit to band ‘H’ property valuation. But even with this modest 8-fold difference in capital values the Tax payable results in a difference of only 3-fold, from 67% (of average) for ‘A’ to 200% for ‘H’bands: in cash terms this means the super-rich in a huge mansion or palace would pay only some £2000 a year more than the humble slum dweller. Far less of a difference than the 50% Income Tax rate for the super rich.

    The argument is whether council tax payment should be based on the apparent Wealth of the occupier or on the Level of Council Services provided to each property. Thatcher’s logic chose the latter, resulting in the Poll Tax, riots and loss of office. Now there have been hefty cuts in central government funding and discussion of councils being more responsible for controlling their own budgets. Local Income Tax has often mooted so Council Tax according to wealth would appear to be a way forward?

    There are other more immediate anomalies, such as the rebate for second homes and for single occupancy, both counter-productive? And I was irritated to find that when I worked overseas and let my flat through an agency, the foreign student tenants were exempt from paying anything.

    It's time to restore discrimination (a lost ethic) between the genuine ‘deserving’ poor and those that are unemployed because of their own chosen lifestyle of indolence/ignorance.

  • Comment number 63.

  • Comment number 64.

  • Comment number 65.

    #60musev, from your link:-

    "There is far more genetic variation within racial groups (around 85%) than there is between racial groups (just 15%). Indeed, surface appearance is often a highly misleading way of assessing the genetic distance between populations."

    My word, sounds like that previous poster 'onthefone' again! But as he is not around to draw an analogy and lecture me about Adolph, I will take the opportunity to ask 'Why is there such a mismatch between the ratio of ethnic sportsmen, athletes, footballers, etc., and that of the British population? Is it that there is a need to promote sports in order to provide an alternative medium for demonstrating achievement other than in some form of useful production? Similar to rap and hiphop in music, perhaps?

  • Comment number 66.

    MORE PANTO FOR THE GULLIBLE

    Labour's new line of attack on David Cameron revealed
    https://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/aug/27/labour-attack-david-cameron-revealed


    They really do take us for fools.

  • Comment number 67.

    SPORT SHOULD BE INDIVIDUAL v INDIVIDUAL or TEAM v TEAM (#60)

    National affiliation or identity belongs to the past and should be outlawed.

    Nice tease MuseV. Is the answer the square root of Ginger?

  • Comment number 68.

    #63 brossen:
    Your link certainly brought out invective comment from the medical fraternity, probably some vested interest there. But seriously, there has to be some constraints on what can be provided by the NHS, which like every other part of the economy will have less funds available in our shrinking economy. I cannot comment on some of the medical treatments discussed, but have been quite surprised to hear from several of my colleagues about their hips and knees replacements, stomach stitching and other expensive operations, plus others that I would place in the cosmetic surgery category. I could offer the view that we are becoming a nation needing its spine strengthening but there are already enough comments on that website equating any form of discrimination with Nazi Germany.
    An order of priorities, per se, is quite a reasonable approach to imposed budget cuts. Conditions directly attributable to abuse of drugs, alcohol and lack of attention to diet should rate lower in priority and be subject to a period of medical advise and supervision before further expense is incurred by the general taxpayer. And no, I'm not a direct supporter of eugenics, but it is time to start exercising some distinction (or fair discrimination) in favour of those members of society who take some responsibility for their own health and do not first demand their rights, based often on a minimal contribution to society.

  • Comment number 69.

    I can think of the easiest way to lower the NHS budget, stop treating everyone from around the world for free, that would be a massive saving. It's not the IHS.

    And

    No cataract operation = blindness, so more expensive care needed.

    No hip or knee operation = lameness, followed by obesity through lack of exercise.

  • Comment number 70.

    #42 Richard Burning

    Good summary that, the resources and the tech are around and available to pull this around, the 'will' to do it WOULD be there as well amongst the people if they knew that option was available to them and appreciated where current policy is leading us all.

    There does seem to be a creeping improvement in awareness amongst the population now as reality slowly overwhelms all superficial financial measures to supress it.

    The black swan which undoes the controlling political, media, energy and financial cartel may turn out to be (as is so often the case in popular myth) the illigitimate fruit of their own loins, sent out to be 'looked after' in the countryside at a safe distance to keep them from causing embarresment, then returning to demad their heritage.

    The educated NEETS, the ****** unwanted offspring of 'law of the jungle capitalism'

    The NEET count in the UK is now at 1M... I wonder what %tage of those have a degree as well.

    My wife works part time in a city centre shop as a sales assistant, she is the only one on the PT staff list WITHOUT a degree. Non of her collegues are earning enough to pay back their student loans and it seems likely they never will, one recently gave up studying Architecture after 4 years, to work full time in a shop.

    I was not convinced by the lady (NN friday - didn't catch her name) advocating 'co-op capitalism' . It seemed to contain many of the elements oft discussed on here on viable solutions to the current crisis, but for some reason, I could not escape the impression it was 'phoney' in the classic Hauldon Caufield type way.

    Co-op capitalism trips off the tongue but has no gravitas to it, sustainable capitalism or zero growth capitalism ( s oppose to the oxymoron sustainable growth capitalism) would surely be a more apt name for it.


    Barrie,

    Having been convinved on WT7 collapse which is quite clear cut, I moved my attension to the towers (I do quite alot of forensic engineering work but not for tall structures it has to be said).. non the less I have the methodology engrained in me.

    The structural design would allow for a progressive collapse mechanism in theory with the permiter columns pulled inwards in a collapse initiated at the core columns.

    The difficult thing is the symetry of the collapse witnessed on both towers. All failures driven by a force follow the path of least resistance.

    As the structure collapsed it would have increasing resistance to collapse (columns in the basement are obviously much stronger than those on floor 90). In order for the lower columns to fail more and more 'partcicles of falling rubble' would be needed to be in vertical contact with each other (in free fall they weigh nothing) to provide the weight to cause the structure to continually collapse. The lower the collapse progresses the more 'vertically stacked rubble' you need to drive the collapse against increasing resistence.

    As the structure was destroyed the falling rubble would not have much if any resistence to 'lateral spread' , any localised concentrations or variations in structure strength (structures do not usually have the same strength in all directions) would quickly pull the collapsing structure 'off centre'.


    Even slight differences in the density of the collapsing chaotic rubble column in free fall would cause preferential failure on one side of the structure first pulling it out to that side.

    That effect can clearly be seem on WT1, the impact was high up, the central columns fail but the perimeter columns preferentially fail on the side of the plane impact.

    The damage at that high level would have been significant as the columns would be quite skinny (not having much to support above) and it is not surprising that as the core collapses significant rotation of the attenae can be seen and the 'intact' section of the tower above the failure point is significantly 'off centre', visibly 'out to one side' in fact before the whole thing is engulfed in a dust cloud.

    Under this scenario i would have expected that the collapse would have been arrested afew floors below the failure point as the vertical symetry under gravity required for a progressive collapse was not there right at the beginning.

    Yet WT1 continues to collapse symetrically about the centre despite the initial driving mechanism being clearly, visibly being pushed out to one side.

    This effect is not apparent for WT2, but the plane struck lower down so the symetrical collapse is more believable in that case (the point where the structure was weakened at much more vertically orientated structure above it.


    That is as much as I can assess without spending a lot of time on it, the above is based on a brief examination of the WT structural design and detailed observations on the geometry of the collapse, particulalrly WT1 which throws up some interesting questions without even thinking about thermite or explosives or fake planes !!.

    I have not examined the NISA official report btw.

    I would conclude that both buildings collapsing in the way that they did without the collapse being 'pushed out to one side' is very odd.

    I must stress that I dont think there is anything conclusive in the above, it is just 'unlikely to very unlikely' I would say that the structure would 'pancake' to ground level in this way.. not impossible.

    I will have alook at the official report next when i get chance and see what it says on the subject.

  • Comment number 71.

  • Comment number 72.

    Just caught Paul's debut on BBCi Player :o) great to see him anchoring! More please.

  • Comment number 73.

    PERVERSELY MISCONCEIVED OR PERVERSELY INTENDED TO FAIL? (#71)

    In the final analysis, wind generators of concrete and metal can be recycled or left in situ, with no lasting impact on the environment. I have cited, before, the residue of WWII defences, to be found, passive, all across the country. Hence there is no FUNDAMENTAL objection to wind - at worst it wastes public money and enriches private pockets. Isn't that what Westminster Dynastic Governance has done for decades?

    WIND GENERATION, TOO, SHALL PASS.

    What will not pass, until GOOD MEN CEASE DOING NOTHING, is the increasingly perverse culture, oozing from Westminster, reinforced at each faux-democratic General Election, and by each STRANGELY MOTIVATED Prime Minister.

    Westminster is the wellspring of perversity, IN ALL ITS MANIFESTATIONS.

    DISMANTLE WESTMISTER - INSTALL INTEGRITY - LET A NEW WIND BLOW

  • Comment number 74.

    #73 Thanks Barrie you've cheered me up, I see what you mean about old defences, you're right : )

    It's just all that money being thrown away that bothers me

    How many wind farms are there in China, although I do believe they do solar.

  • Comment number 75.

    TWIN (THREE) TOWERS (#70)

    As said before: my 'qualifications' are a self-founded and self-constructed, unique, chemical processing business and plant, that competed successfully with (and supplied) a range of big names, for decades, finally being profitably dissolved.

    I have made a deep study of most of the 9/11 material, and have no doubt that not one of the buildings fell from impact and/or fire. That the site was never made a 'crime scene' (cleared in haste of evidence) says all you need to know to indicate that The State was complicit.

    In passing: The Dutch demolition expert, Danny Jowenko, whose testimony was both eloquent and damning, joined the list of 'anomalous deaths' among INCONVENIENT COMMENTATORS, in July this year.

    https://www.newworldorderreport.com/News/tabid/266/ID/8424/911-Skeptic-and-Dutch-Demolition-Expert-Who-Claimed-Building-7-was-Blown-Up-Danny-Jowenko-has-Died-in-a-Car-Crash.aspx

    ANOTHER GOOD MAN WHO CAN NOW DO NOTHING

  • Comment number 76.

  • Comment number 77.

    NO SYSTEMIC MILITARY ABUSE - OFFICIAL.

    DOGS OF WAR

    As war’s abrasion strips his fine veneer
    man’s inhumanity his ilk defines.
    Bi-pedal dog, scent-primed, unleashed, packed off
    he brings a licking to some wrong-tongued foe.
    While back in civvy-street, his leaders rise
    short-slept from tasting civilized excess
    this day newborn in sinless rectitude
    to move their boarded pawns with gifted guess.
    In blinkered ignorance of Conqueror’s Creed
    that sets all free from hypocritic bond
    war-leaders mire mere men in conflict’s slough
    so deep Geneva’s spires are over-topped.
    Unheeding they send mortal men to war
    yet heed the call when time comes to deplore.

    (Written May 2004)

  • Comment number 78.

    "BURGLARS LEAVE HUMAN RIGHTS AT THE DOOR" (#76)

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1247600/Burglars-human-rights-David-Cameron-gets-tough-right-defend-home.html

    Looks as if the Nick n Dave unseemly brawl will hot up Lizzy. If coming to this country, then raping and pillaging, is not BURGLARY OF A HIGH ORDER then all sanity has left these shores.

    THE AGE OF PERVERSITY IS IN APPROPRIATE HANDS.

  • Comment number 79.

    WHY DOES BOMBING CITIES NOT 'INFRINGE' THE RIGHT TO FAMILY LIFE'? (#76 links)

    Nuff sed.

    AGE OF PERVERSITY

  • Comment number 80.

    #69 ecolizzy wrote:

    ‘I can think of the easiest way to lower the NHS budget, stop treating everyone from around the world for free, that would be a massive saving. It's not the IHS.’

    Agreed, that’s the main cause of increase in maternity cases, and a recent report noted that we are not even effective in collecting the costs from non-eligible cases.

    ‘No cataract operation = blindness, so more expensive care needed.’

    Agree this should not be a low-priority. This is very prevalent amongst 3rd-worlders, so part of our generous overseas aid should be delivered by mobile medic teams. Treatment on-site is better than encouraging more immigration to NHS.

    ‘No hip or knee operation = lameness, followed by obesity through lack of exercise.’

    A number of my acquaintances ‘needed new knees’ as a result of an obese lifestyle!
    The general principal of initial referral of drug, alcohol and obesity cases for advice and counselling BEFORE considering referral for surgery makes sense, provided that this doesn’t have to involve highly paid specialist

  • Comment number 81.

    Rural Australians experiencing Corporate Ethnic Cleansing by the eco-fascists !

    https://www.6pr.com.au/spirited-challenge-to-greens/20110822-1j6m6.html

  • Comment number 82.

    EXTERMINATE - EXTERMINATE

    Westminster harbours a systemic rot, whose pheromones draw to it a very peculiar grub.
    Once inside, the grubs are fed on a diet of subservience and hypocrisy, to the mantra: “Growth is good.”

    Those grubs that show especial promise, are fed ‘Sinecure Substance’ – a mix of sycophancy, guile and raw ambition, exuded by party glands. They do not pupate – remaining true juveniles throughout their political lives – simply growing several segments above the the average - and a very thick skin.

    From these overgrown juveniles, one ultimately emerges dominant – for a time – and may assume the position of Prime Minister.

    Being alien, such Prime Ministers have no empathy with the typical member of general society, and being juvenile, such Prime Ministers do all in their power to infantilise them.

    Westminster is an infestation; does the UN have an Extermination Arm?

  • Comment number 83.

    #82 barrie;

    To continue with your well-observed entomological study, I believe the present infestation may self-destruct as a result of rivalry with a sub-dominant pest. UN has not been found robust enough, going forward, and has many side-effects. I would recommend a more potentially potent product - marketed under the name UKIP.
    Should be available in a couple of years - maybe sooner.

  • Comment number 84.

  • Comment number 85.

    SEE YOUR LINK AND RAISE YOU THIS ONE LIZZY (#84)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT1GavDtiwM

    Watch right through - sorry about the musack.

  • Comment number 86.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 87.

    The BBC report regarding those that were killed by Gadaffi forces/mercineries with burnt bodies shown and relatives torn with grief sadly doesn't tell the whole picture of the horrors unfolding in Libya. The 'freedom fighting rebels' have also been doing something similair to captured Gaddafi forces but little to nothing is reported about it because this is a war that the leftists support so do their usual blind eye routine. Something else the leftists in the media don't report-especially the Beeb - is the fact its black african population don't support this uprising and have already been singled out for special treatment by those nice freedom fighters with AK47s but not a word from Auntie beeb. This 3 day humanitarian war and supported by the leftists and its media arm (BBC) turned out to be something more unpleasant than they could have ever imagined; you can only sprinkle so much suger on a story before it starts to taste bad. Doesn't anybody know the ethnic makeup and its history of Libya at the beeb at all.
    When Gaddafi made those remarks about quashing the rebellion in its early days was just the excuse for the western interested countries needed to send in the planes and support this uprising but Gaddafis remarks were what you'd expect from any Arabic/Muslim leader..go listen to the utterences from Irans Armadinnerjacket -especially his latests remarks -for his desire in the removal of the Jews.
    There is something bordering on simpleminded when the leftists and its media mouthpiece (the BBC) think democracy can be purchased with the aid of bombs dropped from 5 thousand feet and helping to getting rid of someone we don't like nor approve of. The Iran revolution of 79 and which was supported also by the leftists is a lesson clearly not learnt.

  • Comment number 88.

    #87kev:
    ‘… the black African population don't support this uprising and have already been singled out for special treatment by those nice freedom fighters with AK47s but not a word from Auntie beeb. Doesn't anybody know the ethnic makeup and its history of Libya at the beeb at all?’

    No worries Kev we will all get to know first-hand soon as the lefties will be granting asylum to many of them, to add to the strife here between different ethnicities.

    Perhaps it’s all part of the World Order plan?

  • Comment number 89.

  • Comment number 90.

    UNATTRIBUTED BBC PIECE A STRING OF FALSEHOODS

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14665953

    Be afraid.

  • Comment number 91.

    9/11 was an inside job from top too bottom. Although it took me five years to reach that conclusion. I'm proper embarrassed with the time it took me to see the truth on that. It took me a month (some 20yrs ago) to realise most pharmacutical drugs are mostly ineffective and that drug companies are just mafia-like cartels.

  • Comment number 92.

  • Comment number 93.

    CORRECTION #90 THE PIECE WAS ATTRIBUTED IN THE TEXT - NO BYLINE

    But for real pain try this;

    https://www.checktheevidence.com/cms/index.php?Itemid=60&id=168&option=com_content&task=view

    Mike Rudin looks like 'one to watch'. I am off to chaeck his background.

  • Comment number 94.

  • Comment number 95.

    #90

    Despite the less than open minded approach from the BBC, It was kind of encouraging to see that the conspiracy deniers and the conspiracy acceptors were fairly evenly matched in the quantity of comments.

    I dare say afew in denial would have been converted too during the course of the afternoon, just got to keep chipping away at it I guess.

    Distrust is on the ascendancy in parallel with austerity it seems.. funny that eh...

    I don't think it is helpful to go on about fake planes, non existent planes,false flags and thermite etc, those who did were easy meat for the deniers via the vehicle of ridicule.

    Point out, however, that producing 'dodgy dossiers' to go to war (which most people accept was the case) is not really any different to pretending publicly you did not know about a terrorist attack when, in fact, you did know, but ignored it because it suited your interventionist aims as a redneck religious fanatic with interests in Oil, defence and the pro Israel lobby....and you get people thinking a bit.

    The rest follows.

    Just got to keep chipping away.. but not with the crazy consiracy stuff, thats just playing into the hands of the conspirators even if some of the 'crazy stuff' eventually turns out to be true.

  • Comment number 96.

    @87 Kev "There is something bordering on simpleminded when the leftists and its media mouthpiece (the BBC) think democracy can be purchased with the aid of bombs"

    Come on Kevsey - this spoilt an otherwise good post. A Tory led govt got us into this particular one - or is David Cameron a "leftist" too? One of the big barriers to proper communication on this blog is people using meaningless and misleading labels with which to insult their enemies.

    PS "Armadinnerjacket" very funny! :-)

  • Comment number 97.

    What was that about getting rid of quangos to save money?!

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8729962/Quango-bosses-double-their-pay.html

  • Comment number 98.

    Left, Right or Centre: "Beware of whoever looks down upon you from a height"

    "The Bull", by the late great Jake Thackray:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etvjzVVfBa4

    If we took Jake's advice, we'd never "get ourselves another one"!

  • Comment number 99.

    BUT LIZZY - LOOK - YOU HAVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH! (#97)

    In Britain we are all allowed to speak our minds about cheating, lying, devious, conniving, disingenuous, dissembling Westminster Governance, and no one will lay a finger on us.

    WE ARE SIMPLY IGNORED.

    Of course, if you touch a nerve, inducing 'nervousness' in high places you can be 'found dead in the woods'* (or your car, or your garage) or simply wandering about claiming to be Jesus.

    * David Kelly's words, some time before he was - er - found dead in the woods.

  • Comment number 100.

    A CHALLENGE TO ALL MPS (#98)

    For the next Election, support division of each box on the voting paper into two - one to indicate a vote for the PERSON and the other a vote for the PARTY.

    Renounce the prefix: honourable.

    Accept a recall mechanism as a mandatory condition of candidacy.

 

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