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Thursday 11 November 2010

Verity Murphy | 11:29 UK time, Thursday, 11 November 2010

Here's Kirsty with news of tonight's programme:

This is the day the universal benefit became real - from 2013 dozens of work related benefits will be swept away, in what the Work and Pensions Secretary said would be a fair deal for both the jobless and the taxpayer.

Iain Duncan Smith says it would ensure people were always better off in work than on welfare. Tonight we will interrogate this new deal with a live debate in the studio with several of the benefit claimants Newsnight has featured since the election and the Welfare Reform minister, Lord David Freud.

Obvious areas of enquiry - what if there are no jobs to be had? What if there is no suitable childcare? Will employers be incentivised to hire long term unemployed? Will there be guaranteed "back to work" courses for those no longer deemed unable to work?

Then, who is leading the upsurge of violence in Northern Ireland? Are republicans, disillusioned with Sinn Fein, regrouping as a major threat to peace? And is the Police Service of Northern Ireland up to the task of ensuring law and order? Liz Mackean has just returned from Belfast where she's been talking to dissident republicans to try to find out how great the danger they pose is. Read more here.

What price a happy dog? Apparently the EU thought it was worth doling out £350,000 for a dog fitness and rehabilitation centre to improve the lifestyle and living standards of dogs in northern Hungary. The money improved someone's living standards, but it wasn't the dogs - the centre was never built.

According to the annual survey by Open Europe a euro-sceptic think-tank, amongst the 50 questionable EU decisions highlighted comes my favourite, £14,000 for Tyrolean farmers to boost their emotional connection with the landscape in Austria.

But tonight on Newsnight, it's a dog's life. Join me at 10.30pm on BBC Two.

From earlier:

Ministers are setting out how they plan to overhaul the benefits system to provide greater incentives for work and sanctions for those unwilling to do so. David Grossman will report on that.

Liz MacKean has just returned from Belfast where she has been looking into the growing strength of the Real IRA.

We are also looking at continuing fallout from the Woolas re-run judgement, Ireland's debt crisis, the G20 meeting. And of course it is Armistice Day.

More details later.


  • Comment number 1.


    We: The Ape Confused by Language, now live in a wildly complicated PSYCHOLOGICAL environment, because we have hopelessly out-clevered ourselves.

    Only WISDOM applied to the fundamental plight we are in, has any (slight) hope of reversing the downward spiral. Wisdom does not come from schooling.

    Empathic succour is natural, but INDUSTRIAL SCALE WELFARE just 'does not resonate' in the confused Ape mind. It will fail.

    Modern man is Mammon's creature, manipulated by the deluded politicians to appease demons they can never quell. Look hard at the face of Blair - the whole story is there.

  • Comment number 2.


    Woolas fell foul of the 'given', in Westminster, that we proles can be lied to - 'politically' - with impunity. Perhaps he went a bit too far.

    I have a 'liar-flyer' carrying a blatant political lie - the Beeb are not interested.

    That Westminster 'given' is valid - and unassailable.

    I have 4.5 years to change that.

  • Comment number 3.

    In an exclusive interview with the Daily Mush, the country's most senior banking regulator Lord Takenabung answers questions about the possible unhealthy symptoms within the UK banking sector:

    Q: Thank you spending the time with us today. I'd like to talk about the possible climate for fraudulent activity in the banking sector. This is mainly based on the work of Akerlof & Romer who published a notable paper in 1993.

    A: Fraud. Oh hardly. Well, if there was, I would have heard about, eh? But as it is, I've had not a sniff, no, not a sausage.

    Q: Well the authors provide a framework for assessing the conditions under which this could realistically happen, based on 4 examples from the 1980s and 1990s. The first warning sign they say is that of excessive pay / remuneration whereby owners and managers can extract maximum wealth from a firm. Given the high pay levels in the City, isn't this of concern?

    A: Enough of this lefty nonsense. We have to pay 'em this. We wouldn't want society's best and brightest going in to science, engineering, teaching or medicine now would we?? Not when there's money to be made from speculating, eh!

    Q: Well that leads me to the second point, which is that fraud is more likely to occur in firms that are heavily over over-valued. Are modern banking firms overvalued?

    A: Oh not in the slightest. Just look at their nice shiny big buildings. Haven't you noticed? Plus they dress nice and some of them even talk quite posh, so they must be worth billions and trillions of pounds at least. More lefty nonsense, I'm afraid.

    Q: Yes, but didn't many of them go bust. From hero to zero in no more than a few weeks / months?

    A: Maybe, but that's the sign of a good functioning market, eh? We don't want company values, or even country values for that matter staying fixed now do we. You can't speculate then, so where will that get us all? Nope, we just need lots and lots of liquidity, and according to those nice chaps in Chicago it's a blessing and we should embrace it.

    Q: But isn't liquidity a bit intangible?

    A: No it isn't! I saw some on someone's balance sheet just the other day, so don't tell me I’m seeing things!

    Q: But aren't these balance sheet assets held by the banks intangible promises (such as bonds), and isn't that a substantial contributor to the unpredictability of their underlying value?

    A: Oh dear boy, where have you been? Tangible assets are so 20th Century. No, the world has moved on since then. Besides all that coveting of tangible assets, wasn't very healthy conduct now was it? What with all those big wars and stuff. No, intangible paper promises and its electronic equivalent is definitely the future, my good chap! Next question.

    Q: Yes, well the final point is that a fundamental moral hazard occurs when a Government promises, or actually undertakes, ultimate responsibility of bad private investments. Many people call this privatised profits and socialised losses. How do you respond?

    A: Well, of course the Government has to step in. There's no-one else left to carry the can. I mean without that, where will it get us all? You don't want all those brave speculators losing money now do you! Posh suits and shiny buildings don't come about on their own now. Well, I've had enough, conversation over. Goodbye.

  • Comment number 4.

    can you just run it by me again...just what did the Catholics in Belfast get out of the peace process?

  • Comment number 5.


    1. At 12:04pm on 11 Nov 2010, barriesingleton wrote:

    "Only WISDOM applied to the fundamental plight we are in, has any
    (slight) hope of reversing the downward spiral."

    Define 'wisdom' extensionally (i.e without recourse to another empty intensional construct).

    "Wisdom does not come from schooling."

    Neither does intelligence ('g') Barrie. There is no place for 'wisdom'
    in scientific (rational) explanation. Does that make science the problem or those who cling to archaic concepts like 'wisdom' as explanatory constructs?

    Not all are equals (in all matters) in blogland (like anywhere else).
    Some statements are factual, others mere opinions. But how does one tell the difference linguistically and operationally? Some can. Othgers can't. Why?

  • Comment number 6.


    "2. At 12:11pm on 11 Nov 2010, barriesingleton wrote:

    Woolas fell foul of the 'given', in Westminster, that we proles can be lied to - 'politically' - with impunity. Perhaps he went a bit too far.

    I have a 'liar-flyer' carrying a blatant political lie - the Beeb are not interested.

    That Westminster 'given' is valid - and unassailable."

    Like the BBC and its House Rules, or the ITV and its X Factor?

    There's some naive fuss at present as to whether The X Factor is 'fixed'. But what does that really mean, 'fixed'? Here's a question or two for you about lies and truth.

    How does one tell the difference in intensional Natural Language which is not truth-functional and if you say that doesn't matter, or that's an academic, how do you know?). Is most that we see on TV just acting? Is it prepared? Is it scripted? Do Newsreaders read the news or create the news? Do politicians present policies of their parties, or do they personally make them up themselves? Can they make them up themselves?

    When actresses and actors act, are they lying or just pretending? Do they know the difference between pretend and reality when they are acting well? To see whether The X Factor and Strictly are entertainment or reality, one has to study the laws and terms and conditions of the programming surely? If the law blurs reality and pretence here, what is true/real and what is legitimate deception in pursuit of entertainment and leadership? See Plato and others on The Nobel Lie.

  • Comment number 7.

    MANY A TRUE WORD......

    on The World at One, benefit claimants asked what they think of moves to 'encourage' job seekers off benefit.

    Two examples of the complexity of the issues to be addressed
    One, a A lady with a child needing regular hospital care. Employers are, rightly or wrongly going to discriminate against someone with such clear restrictions to many jobs. This is true for many on incapacity benefits. Capable to undertake some work, some of the time, but not reliably able.

    The other a woman who laughingly (embarrassed??) stated that when you're a drug addict no one wants to give you a job. She hopes things will improve as she has now come off a methadone programme. Hopefully recovered, but who knows.

    But her telling comment about the government cuts ....."We are being treated like naughty children and having our pocket money taken away."

  • Comment number 8.

    "3. At 12:23pm on 11 Nov 2010, Hawkeye_Pierce wrote:
    In an exclusive interview with the Daily Mush, the country's most senior banking regulator Lord Takenabung answers questions about the possible unhealthy symptoms within the UK banking sector:"

    Excellent stuff - ROFL as they say these days.

    Three reminders:

    1) Hare on the problem. Hare's the most respect expert on this disorder in the forensic field. He should be heeded.

    2) Whilst libertarians painted the USSR as one big GULAG, over in the USA they locked up more people, and unequally in terms of ethnicity too, and of course, Solzhenitsyn went back home in disgust and wrote "Two Hundred years Together".

    3) In the 70s and 80s, Quine and Skinner were truly gobsmacked (and
    depressed) by the rise of Cognitive Science' (same team as behind modern economic and political 'science',) as they thought they had logically and experimentally shown that it was Luftgebaude. Still, Quine spent time with Carnap in Germany before the war, and we in the libertarian democracies know one can't trust those Germans for anything other than sound economics, science and engineering etc.

  • Comment number 9.

    Just what do the government mean when they say that people's benefit will be stopped for up to 3 years for refusing to take work?
    Do they mean exactly that, a concrete offer of a job is rejected out of hand, or could a person lose their money by simply failing to turn up for an interview?
    Is the loss of benefit total or will people be moved onto some kind of income support?
    If someone has proved their level of jobseeking to the satisfaction of the Job Centre by applying for all the vacancies forwarded to them and attending all the subsequent interviews, how is it not simply a punishment for being out of work to then cut their housing benefit by 10% after 12 months?
    What about the pitfalls for the vulnerable?
    If a person is moved off of incapacity benefit because it is deemed they could do 'something' they then have to go and claim JSA which requires a claimant to be ready and willing to take 'any' job within 24 hours notice. The gap between 'any' and 'something' is one that the fit able bodied claimant will be able to cross without any trouble but what if you have a chronic but intermittent health problem that meant you were too ill to work for one week out of every month?
    What if you were too ill to attend a job interview would you lose 3 months benefit?
    What if the same person is simply unwanted in the labour market and can't get work no matter how hard they try because of their health or disability. Do they end up losing their JSA entirely and 10% of their housing benefit?
    Are the real losers here neither the able-bodied work-shy who will be pushed into jobs, nor the very sick who will be supported, but a group of people in the middle with health problems and disabilities who will slowly have their safety net withdrawn?
    Just what do they mean when they say that 'the vulnerable' will be protected? The government say it all the time. Who are 'the vulnerable'? How can we tell if they are being protected or not if no-one ever asks the government to define what is meant by 'the vulnerable'?
    Maybe it means nothing, perhaps its just a phrase to make it sound as if there is nothing to worry about. If they don't tell us how can we know?
    No-one is saying there should be no reform of benefits but the danger is that if not questioned the sanctions and punishments will end up hitting the wrong targets.

  • Comment number 10.

  • Comment number 11.

    Crumbs tab02 you are a very hard taskmaster, it must be extremely difficult writing an excellent essay or thesis for you, do your students all get 1sts and/or good doctorates? ; )

  • Comment number 12.

    Is there any evidence that schemes such as Flexible New Deal actually improve the chances that claimants find jobs? It is applied universally, at significant public expense, so surely there is objective data which demonstrates that it is effective.

  • Comment number 13.

    NN wrote:
    "Liz MacKean has just returned from Belfast where she has been looking into the growing strength of the Real IRA."

    Weren't the other IRA real then? far as i can recall i found the other IRA very real as well.

    Whenever the BBC do anything about another place from outside London, its always from the perspective of a BBC journo who only spends a couple of days where ever their at. In this case its Belfast.
    So the 'real IRA' are gaining some ground at the grass roots level. Did the good folk at the Beeb and the libby establishment think the troubles just went away with the good friday agreement and the other deals made. It never went away. The hatred from both sides is still there. People may have gotten sick of the past conflicts, murders etc and a move towards peace was welcome by many. The problems for Northern Ireland and especially places like Belfast is that the hatred on both sides is still very raw, the pain of the past just does not evaporate away with everybody shaking hands and getting on with each other. Its deeply embedded within the DNA of the Irish and the Loyalists, their warring History is too long for just some cease fire agreement and then everyone move ons. Its not gonna go away any time soon but given time perhaps and the breeding out of bigotry and hatred may eventually dilute and dissipate its horrors to the history books...but not in our time I don't think.

    I was born and raised in Belfast and still visit many times and its this experience that gives me greater insight, an advantage over any visiting Journo. My real worry is whilst we still hear about the conflicts in northern Ireland.. and in affect the same ethnic group which is only divided by religion - same Holy book mind -we here in England have allowed so many different cultures to join us..if you want to know how our embracement of diversity is gonna play out for us here in England, well, just take a look at the history of Northern Ireland. It will only be the half-wits and the Liberials who'll have trouble seeing that.

    Anyhow, Liz Mackean is one of the better BBC Journos, so i'll expect her report to be at least half decent.

  • Comment number 14.


    As you know Tab - I don't usually take instruction, thus you feel empowered to term me 'incorrigible'. The error of YOUR ways you might never bring to consciousness, methinks.

    Briefly: Wisdom, like The Tao, is expressed in behaviour - both active and passive. That is all you need know. If it 'doesn't work' for you, you might do well to ask yourself why?

    Definition can diminish.

  • Comment number 15.


    If 'call centres' are a success, off-shore, then so can 'school centres' be. It has been shown that the earlier kids are schooled, the happier the parents are, and the better Mammonites the kids become.

    OFF-SHORE SCHOOLING - THE ANSWER TO ALL BRITAIN'S NEEDS. They will even be fluent in Manglish!

  • Comment number 16.

    moody interrogator?

    Is Barrie an Autobot? Do you truly care for the poor and vulnerable? What is the significance of pork and prawns in the war against Terror? Why allow yourself to be duped by the media when there are so many ways of fooling yourself? Are we all in the Matrix? Is there life after Mad Men? Why do Germans work so hard yet work less hours than the British? Is there an alternative to an alternative? Why is the existence of 80%+ of capital a matter of confidence? Do we really need tangerines? Why are limbs never personalized on Sky Sports?

  • Comment number 17.

    #13; don't know about same ethnic group divided only by religion; my understanding is of a broadly Celtic, Catholic indigenous population colonised by a broadly Anglo Saxon Protestant group of UK Government aided immigrants, predominantly from south west Scotland.

    You're correct when you say the hatred, often incomprehensibly bitter and deeply ingrained, has not gone away. A friend of mine was notably sardonic at the reportage of the Balkans in the nineties; in his view N.I. was only a bomb away from the same slaughter, yet this is often lost on the English, even after Warrington, Canary Wharf, the pub bombs of the seventies and the rest.

    I believe the Glasgow Rangers fans have a song they sing about the Scottish Catholics, to the tune of "Sloop John B." - "The Famine's over - why don't you go home?" So it takes more than a signature on a piece of paper to turn that page, true enough.

  • Comment number 18.

    I presume that the BBC will be broadcasting live from Kilkenomics this weekend:

    Certainly worth not missing out on:

    "The economies of two small Atlantic islands collapsed. Iceland stood up for it’s people not it’s banks, should we?"

  • Comment number 19.


    And who's 'Moody Interrogator'? Some relative of Mrs Lopsided?

    If I had half an idea what you are on about, I'd report you.

    I spend all my waking hours composing, and you condense me into 7 lines AND ONE OF THOSE IS SHORT.

    "Ma-uuum!" (from the spotty cellar) "That Kashibeyaz is 'avin a go at me again."

  • Comment number 20.

    '13. At 2:31pm on 11 Nov 2010, kevseywevsey wrote:
    Whenever the BBC do anything about another place from outside London, its always from the perspective of a BBC journo who only spends a couple of days where ever they're at.'

    Well, it's a smidge better than hitting twitter for an hour and see what you can dredge up (noting this has added a new 'best bud' from the mature student sector to BBC producers' iPhone speed dials). Or who gets in touch. Especially if the requirement is to be a Cricklewooed 'source'. Then you can claim anything really. Who's to know; who can argue? Just, when the facts blow up, you can apologise and make the excuse that others did it too. Simples! Not quite worth £3.6B, mind.

    Anyhow, Liz Mackean is one of the better BBC Journos, so i'll expect her report to be at least half decent.

    However, like Lord Lever, some problems may stem from identifying the accuracy of which half.

  • Comment number 21.

    Thoughts regarding .....

    At 09:05am on 11 Nov 2010, ecolizzy wrote:

    Interestingly the HMG waffler quoted in your link states that they are going to look at labeling “next year”.

    Exactly how long would it take to formulate a law saying ‘label it’!

    Perhaps a private member’s bill would suffice?

    Or is there some reason that requires HMG to delay that they - perhaps - would prefer us not to know?

    And why is “nearly all” imported New Zealand lamb halal?

    Maybe this has something to do with the Dim Cons prevarication?

    Or maybe ..... somebody needs time to dispose of some of their shareholdings.

    What ever happened to ‘working for the best interests of the Nation’?

    And .... Oh yes .....

    Have you heard about the book that asks only questions? Have you got a copy? Have you read it? Can you value it? Can you understand it? Does it actually mean anything? Is it worthy of you? Is it massage for your mind? Is it ‘Mein Kampf’ for the intelligentsia? Is it crack cocaine for Luvvies? Or is it just a total waste of wood pulp and clay?

    And .... Oh yes .....

    Would anyone care to open a ‘book’ as to whom, and how many, of the Dim Con’s Top Table (And, of course, ‘fall guys’ !) will be ‘elevated’ sic to the Upper House at the end of this Parliament? (Thereby, of course, avoiding ‘electoral’ disgrace.)

    And .... Oh yes .....

    Phil Woolas ..... He could have been the ‘greatest’ ( Immigration Minister,that is!)

    But he had too many Bosses!

    And .... Oh yes .....

    Somehow the more one is faced with having to listen to the Dim Cons (One could argue that this is not really a good idea at the best of times.) the more it would appear that they are talking to an audience of their own construct.

    It would appear more noticeable that King Con seems to let his minions do all the ‘dirty’ work. Is he hoping to get by on some form of ‘I was only giving orders’ come the next General Election?

    Time for some advice .....

    Wake up and smell the coffee!

    Or better still ....

    Put a peg on your nose!

  • Comment number 22.

    9. At 1:55pm on 11 Nov 2010, muggwhump wrote:

    "Maybe it means nothing, perhaps its just a phrase to make it sound as if there is nothing to worry about. If they don't tell us how can we know? "

    What are we there?

    That's like asking how a doctor etc knows there's something wrong with you when you don't? For some such questions are part of life's great mystery, for others, it's known as training and intelligence based inequality. If someone's trained in something which others aren't, it can be almost impossible to explain to the growing ignorantii how these judgements are made. Most trained people can spot someone swinging the lead or on the fiddle, because of what else they do and don't do.

    Furthermore, if they're competent, they're not going to tell suspected scroungers how to get round them are they? Just remember, Natural Languages are not truth-functional, it's why computer algorithms plus evidence are used in support of decision-making these days.

  • Comment number 23.

    "14. At 2:42pm on 11 Nov 2010, barriesingleton wrote:

    As you know Tab - I don't usually take instruction, thus you feel empowered to term me 'incorrigible'. The error of YOUR ways you might never bring to consciousness, methinks."

    That's classic narcissism my friend. We are all prone to it by degree.
    Those who seek political office, or fame in the media or entertainment are particularly prone to this poor self-awareness, and hate having it pointed out for the same reason as it spoils their party game so to speak..

    The above tells me (and no doubt attentive others) that you are a mite deluded (i.e lacking in an important area of socially inculcated
    self-awareness) as how did you ever learn to speak and write English except from social instruction, and how do you now learn about the world except through instruction? To say that one does X or Y oneself is in fact just empty tautology, as one can only ever do X or Y oneself, i.e. nobody else does it. That anyone ever thinks that they make decisions themselves,. is again, just empty tautology which stops them asking important questions about behaviour and its management.

    You do not appear to see any of this, and you should take instruction, or else you'll continue to appear ineducable, not just incorrigible to many who know better, and that won't make you look good at all, which I'm sure you wish to avoid (from much of what you post here. ;-)

  • Comment number 24.

    16. At 3:03pm on 11 Nov 2010, kashibeyaz wrote:

    "Why do Germans work so hard yet work less hours than the British?"

    Probably because their language is more suited to logic, science and engineering than English. They tend to see through dishonesty more readily too. That was especially so before WWII. Most of them were intellectually castrated after the war however, and that extended to Britain and the USA via selective blowback (if you know what I mean) .

    The Germans have made a partial recovery in recent times (especially after the Wall came down) but their birth rate (TFR) is still chronically low, which has led them to make the same immigration problem as here (largely low skilled Turkish). They'll be back....

  • Comment number 25.

    "19. At 3:27pm on 11 Nov 2010, barriesingleton wrote:
    "Ma-uuum!" (from the spotty cellar) "That Kashibeyaz is 'avin a go at me again."

    Ever the politician?

    Just remember why anarchism/narcissism is termed an infantile disorder; it's because it's a matter of arrested cognitive development - a premature plateauing of cognitive and political ability, a failure of discrimination, e.g. not being able to distinguish the player from the ball, who said from what was said etc. To the arrested developed it's all pretty much the same, ia blur, it's all about fame and personhood, not principles (laws) and policies. The media exploits this knowing its demographics.

    As we age, we regress, when we think we have stopped taking instruction, we have truly begun infantile regress. :-(

  • Comment number 26.

    "11. At 2:17pm on 11 Nov 2010, ecolizzy wrote:
    Crumbs tab02 you are a very hard taskmaster, it must be extremely difficult writing an excellent essay or thesis for you, do your students all get 1sts and/or good doctorates? ; )"

    Ah, this just tells me that you still have not quite grasped the significance of my explaining that education is a selection process. Behaviour is emitted and selected. It is selected and shaped by the environment (reinforcement). It is not created. In a fair and just society people would not be rewarded for doing what comes naturally. Nor would they be punished. All behaviour would be appositely managed. We live in a muddled society which does not understand behaviour, mainly because of bad selection and behaviour management (our libertarian, highly narcissistic, political system). Sadly most teachers and managers haven't a clue about learning. They were never taught how it works, and if they were, they never really understood it.

  • Comment number 27.

    "THE ABOVE TELLS ME . . . "? (#23)

    Your words not mine. Can you see the error Tab? The imaged words are passive. They TOLD nothing. However, they elicited a reaction from you, one you could not - in the instant of reaction - affect. So: an interaction between my words and your programming produced an 'output' that you then REGARDED AS VALID. Hardly the attitude of a good scientist?

    Might the accusation of narcissism be a PROJECTION? You do 'do' projection don't you Tab?

  • Comment number 28.

    Comment on ....

    At 2:14pm on 11 Nov 2010, ecolizzy wrote:

    And each and every child will be entitled to child benefit!

    Unless one parent - assuming there is more than one - pays higher rate tax.

    And of course don’t forget the brothers and sisters of these little bundles of joy that haven’t arrived in this country yet! They’ll be getting child benefit as well!

    Here’s a possible story for you to investigate Nn ....

    Why is a newly migrated EU worker whom has only just obtained a NI number then entitled to claim state benefits for him/herself and, presumably, his/her dependents whom may, or may not, be resident in the UK? (One has to hope, of course, that these benefits have not been claimed fraudulently, nor was the claimant aided in his/her fraud, if recent reports are to be believed?)

    And yet a UK resident is not allowed JSA if his/her partner works for more than 16 hours per week?

    And .... Oh yes .....

    The new benefit system for the unemployed will be available on line ......!!!!!!

    Does that mean that the - primary - claimant won’t even need to be resident in this country?

  • Comment number 29.


    Not too far from smashing up restaurants JAP - is it. It's a game to them.

    We are laboratory rats. They are Skinner. He wakes up with a new theory; reconfigures the maze; we rats mess up. Skinner says: "That was interesting - it didn't work". Some rats die, some take to drink etc and some just wait for the next Skinner maze.

    Meanwhile, Dave goes off for a Globopoly jaunt - with his cameraman. With luck, I shall be dead before Dave writes his version of reality. It will have LOTS OF PICTURES though.

  • Comment number 30.

    ..Obvious areas of enquiry..

    millions of migrants?

    Ireland was/is a norman monarchy model project. One of the first things the Normans did was invade ireland. When the norman monarchy model occupation of the uk ends so will the Ireland 'problem'.

    the eu hasn't passed an audit yet [conditions and regulations they expect of us they don't pass themselves] and we still give them money? would the EU give money to a firm that had never passed an audit in decades?

  • Comment number 31.

    "27. At 4:59pm on 11 Nov 2010, barriesingleton wrote:
    "THE ABOVE TELLS ME . . . "? (#23)

    Your words not mine. Can you see the error Tab? The imaged words are passive. They TOLD nothing. However, they elicited a reaction from you, one you could not - in the instant of reaction - affect. So: an interaction between my words and your programming produced an 'output' that you then REGARDED AS VALID. Hardly the attitude of a good scientist?

    Might the accusation of narcissism be a PROJECTION? You do 'do'
    projection don't you Tab?"

    There was no error, your behaviours told you nothing, but they did me.

    Let me set you straight on a few matters of fact in order to help clarify matters.

    1. You self stated as an amateur on matters to do with behaviour.
    2. You post self-referential statements.
    3. You state that you are not educable on these matters.
    4. You make inductive inferences which go beyond evidence.
    5. You do not make external references to evidence but to what you think.
    6. Validity is a formal logical concept not an empirical (scientific
    one) one.
    7. Projection is not a scientific term (on the contrary)

    What I'm urging you (and others) to not do is what I've suggested another frequently self-referencing poster here tries not to do, and that is try to examine what happens empirically in the world via relations between events as objects without using imagined psychological relations in explanatory positions. The latter are almost always fanciful constructive, fillers in lieu of behaviours and are notoriously unreliable. There is in practice a fundamental difference between the psychological and the behavioural, and this is a distinction which it would do you (and the other poster) a lot of good to note,, as failure to do so will, I suggest, guarantee that you keep making child-like errors in your analyses.

    This is helpful information based on observed verbal behaviour.

  • Comment number 32.

    #28; and why is it that an English student is prohibited from enjoying no tuition fees in Scotland, yet any other student from the EU can enjoy the free university and pay about £1800 on graduation = for a BA about 600 a year - still more expensive than France, but hey, to study there would mean the drag of learning Frog. In short, a student from England pays the same in Scotland as someone from outside the EU - yet Scotland gets its block grant from HMG? Bizarre!

    #25; the Germans have improved leaps and bounds, even from the Seventies; I remember the streets of Frankfurt full of waddling jellies of people, now they're as fit as whippets; the opposite of here in Engerland. They have always been industrious, whilst I fear the natural propensity of the English is to a phlegmatic approach to work, which is perhaps a symptom of a fundamentally stolid approach to life in general.

    The Turks were welcomed to Germany because their work ethic is as strong as that of the indigenous population.

    The French and the Italians probably have the secret, which lies somewhere between c'est la vie and la dolce vita.

    Tabblethingy is Jadedthingy and whatsa happen to Gangthingy?

  • Comment number 33.

    For a chance to see Jeremy's Documentary on Wilfred Owen (on BBC4, 10pm tonight and on BBCi Player too) click here:

  • Comment number 34.

    cocky bikeman; we are in europe, both geographically, historically and politically; it is not about "them"; if you want to change it sort out your MEP, demand an elected Council elected by the people, or make a brew, even, just stop whingeing about "them" in Europe.

    Or have a tea party and join the good ol' USA.

    Anyone on here take part in the student riots of the sixties? Don't you think the NUS guy Porter would have been tucked up in bed reading Rupert the Bear stories then? What's happened to student protest? He's actually apologizing for a few broken windows - broken by Anarchists, not even students.

    I find it shameful all these po-faced people telling them they need to pay for University, given they had Uni for free.

  • Comment number 35.

    THANKS TAB(#31)

    I don't think we need pursue that line of enquiry any further.

  • Comment number 36.


    ..we are in europe, both geographically, historically and politically..

    so lets ignore silly things like audits? seem the EU can dish out the rules a plenty but it can't live up to them itself?

    The EU project is a modern anti democratic invention.

  • Comment number 37.

    Britain's trillion pound horror story on C4 tonight was pretty good at summarising most of what I have been posting about for a while regarding the economy-

    The big hole in it though was that fact the government is standing behind the losses in the banks, which as I have previously posted according to the Bank of England are between £1.8-£7.4 trillion, which when realised will overwhelm the government, and if they cut the banks loose the banks, and therefore over 90% of the economy that takes payment through the banks will collapse, damned if they do and damned if they don't, the only way out is Soviet style collapse and rebuild from the ground up.

  • Comment number 38.

    Well done tonight Kirsty for keeping the civilized " end up " against a parade of Corporate Nazi commentators, and making the king stock market parasite himself look a complete fool. Given the circumstantial evidence it would appear that the main obstacle stopping small business creating jobs is in actual fact employment law. No small business dare take on new staff because under the present rules if they are no good at the job itself its almost impossible to get rid of them.

  • Comment number 39.

    Ah the Mail seems to have caught up with clare

    I would say she is a professional student.

  • Comment number 40.

    Excellent interview of Lord Freud by Kirsty Wark this evening, which highlighted the fact that LOTS of claimants volunteer already (because it was a requirement of the New deal programme) and that claimants with children are unlikely to face effective sanctions (because the government isn't about to penalise children).

    It also looks like Lord Freud has finally started to realise that a lot of the problem rests with employers, who would rather hire cheap migrant workers than grant an interview to an applicant on benefits.

    Well done Kirsty! :-)

  • Comment number 41.


    As a retired bloke, with sufficient pension, I have many degrees of freedom. I can eat, sleep, shop, exercise, DO NOTHING, on a whim, and the money is constantly replenished.

    If I were offered a job, paying a lot more than I get now, I would not give up my FREEDOMS in any sort of hurry.

    FREE TIME HAS A VALUE! I get the impression that Ian Dozy Sausage has not factored that in to his grand strategy. His cry of: "We must make the move into work pay" (noticeably more than idleness does) puts ZERO value on (lost) freedom. (I bet he never played truant.)

    UNIVERSAL CREDIT - would you credit it?

  • Comment number 42.

    #37 Looks as thought this belongs along with the Channel4 programme turbojerry, I wish I'd watched that.

  • Comment number 43.

    "37. At 10:52pm on 11 Nov 2010, turbojerry wrote:
    Britain's trillion pound horror story on C4 tonight was pretty good at summarising most of what I have been posting about for a while regarding the economy-"

    If Durkin is indeed one of the Trotskyite/Libertarian crowd (LM/Spiked etc), he's essentially a Neo-Conservative, i.e he wants the state out of the picture so that the free market (and banks) can rip. That is, an anarchist. They work in paradoxical (to some) ways...but then, if you are anti Big Government, all you have to do is destroy the status quo. Beware. Most of CH4 is unwatchable these days, as it's edgy, but not responsible. Most peole don't understand money, so big liabilities (equalled only by big assets) in derivatives (which only really appeared on the balance sheets from
    2005 onwards in The Blue Book (2010) are great for clobbering the Public Sector whilst scaring homeowners with mortgages and a few grand on their credit cards......better than terrorists, global warming, bird flu, swine flu and anything else they might cook up..

  • Comment number 44.

  • Comment number 45.


    What part did drink play in the rioters' behaviour? Are we going after the pushers and barons? Ah - full circle! The Booze Barons are in the House of Lords (like as not) and Westminster Palace had 19 bars (subsidised) at the last count. Dave hasn't closed any.

    Do-as-I-Don't Dave, should look to the beam in his own eye. Perhaps we shall hear from Canterbury on this? (Mind you - Jesus was a 'bit of a one' for the vino - I've read.)

    This nation is as culturally bankrupt as it is financially so. Ah well - Nick'll fix it.

  • Comment number 46.

    Irish Terrorism

    It was always the case that some people who have lived the adrenaline dream of violence often on good pay were never going to take a job in a factory packing boxes. Bank robbing,smuggling, killing is a buzz for them. They are addicted to the lifestyle.

    However the norman monarchy occupation has no legitimate basis. The normans started all this. It is their model that perpetuates it.

    Kirsty was losing it. The idea 100 people makes a govt irrelevant would mean the uk jihadi insurgency of 2000 plus makes the uk govt 'irrelevant'?

    One would have thought with DNA tests the unknown soldier might not be that unknown?

    Did NN give JP the night off to install a cat flap? Or was it still put out in that gale force wind?

  • Comment number 47.

    There was another free-market anarchist doing the rounds on radio and TV yesterday, including NN last was Lord Freud.,_Baron_Freud

    'In late 2006, Freud was appointed by the then Prime Minister, Tony Blair, to provide an independent review of the British welfare to work system. His recommendations called for expanded private sector involvement in the welfare system for substantial resources to be found to help those on Incapacity Benefit back into economic activity and for single parents to be required to work earlier.'

    His empathy and advice for the benefit recipients in the NN studio with him was sneering.

  • Comment number 48.


    It's a strange world ecolizzy, until you think about the names, details and connections (see the bond the other night between Clare and Aaron?).

    For far-left 'communists' read right wing libertarian shills. It's a classic shell game of subterfuge. The radicals job is to alienate onlookers form the moderate's just cause. One could say that anarchists unrule (deregulate) which is good for the finance and retail sector (just look at the collective Net Worth for our finance sector in the Blue Book 2010 and the salaries and bonuses - see Hawkeye's reference to the 1993 article on corporate looting).

    Most folk don't get it as anarchists behaviour is prima facie irrational
    - it just disrupts order i.e regulators - the state. That is now the agenda of the Con-Dems, just as it was the New Labour agenda before them. To see the alternative one has to go back to the 1950s Old Labour, Beveridge etc.

    See what Monbiot says and in the past about Channel 4 'science' and look carefully into who ran CH4 (which is in the PUBLIC sector) and has a brief to broadcast edgy material. Note last night's "Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story". Just ask what their Libertarian agenda is if not a clever swipe at the alternative horror of socialism/statism essentially by over-blowing matters emotively. Which is characteristic behaviour of 'far-left revolutionary (infantile disorder) communists, dating back to Sylvia Pankhurst.

  • Comment number 49.

    Beware of anarchists ecolizzy: From your link...

    "We need to cut spending on the (economically useless) public sector; we need to encourage the (economically essential) private sector by cutting taxes."

    Hong Kong is now run by China, has been for years, even before the take-over, it was run by the Chinese people who are family people, and passionately so. Decades ago most of Hong Kong was led by the able Chinese. They look after their elderly and China across the border, remember, is statist. in fact it is Stalinist.

    Your telegraph author is not a statist. He clearly values prizes (see arrested development) and he craves 'supply' (see his byline).

  • Comment number 50.


    You should know it by now, jaunty, that more often than not, JP is free on Thursday's. Who knows, he may have been listening to the 'Moonlight Sonata', Mozart, 'Trumpet Volunteer' by Jeremiah Clark, jazz, electronic or even ethnic tunes and songs. Your guess would be as good as mine.

  • Comment number 51.

    "44. At 10:07am on 12 Nov 2010, ecolizzy wrote:
    Labour Party anarchists?"


    Try it from another angle, asie form seeing the anarchist = anti-statist or anti-regulation.

    The British Chinese (a model group) comprise half a percent of the British population. They are bright and easily identified as a group phenotypically. Now, imagine another bright group of the same base rate frequency. If British Chinese kept popping up (an NN and elsewhere in the media and economy) as frequently as this other half percent group, what questions might any reasonable person interested in rational analysis and equality ask?

    The question then is, why aren't reasonable people asking such questions? Why this failure of discrimination (intelligence)?

  • Comment number 52.


    I'm definitely after the pushers making, methinks, quite a good and steady progress on that score and, who knows, I might end up working, if not in one of the Westminster bars, then a Royal one perhaps. I would be safe in one as, although a warming tipple on a regular basis, I am not an alcoholic and almost never drink during the day.


  • Comment number 53.


    "Ofcom has stated that the public vote only decided the acts who will feature in the bottom two. After that ITV may decide at its own discretion how it decides which act is eliminated."

    STV 12 Nov 2010

  • Comment number 54.

    Ho-Lee-Kow! (It's a Chinese cow by the way!)

    This is from one of tn02's earlier (Wiki) links...

    'In December 1977, when uniform national examinations were reinstated, 5.7 million students took the examinations, although university placement was available for only the 278,000 applicants with the highest scores. In July 1984, about 1.6 million candidates (30,000 fewer than in 1983) took the entrance examinations for the 430,000 places in China's more than 900 colleges and universities. Of the 1.6 million examinees, more than 1 million took the test for placement in science and engineering colleges; 415,000 for places in liberal arts colleges; 88,000 for placement in foreign language institutions; and 15,000 for placement in sports universities and schools. More than 100,000 of the candidates were from national minority groups. A year later, there were approximately 1.8 million students taking the three day college entrance examination to compete for 560,000 places. Liberal arts candidates were tested on politics, Chinese, mathematics, foreign languages, history, and geography. Science and engineering candidates were tested on politics, Chinese, mathematics, chemistry, and biology. Entrance examinations also were given in 1985 for professional and technical schools, which sought to enroll 550,000 new students.'


    We've already lost the economic war!

    This is a fine time to be a Socialist!

  • Comment number 55.

    "54. At 9:35pm on 12 Nov 2010, DebtJuggler wrote:
    Ho-Lee-Kow! (It's a Chinese cow by the way!)

    Did you ever watch Tim Burton's MARS ATTACKS? That's the Chinese I reckon! It makes Mr Cameron's visit look tragic-comical..:-(.

    Sadly, I fear most readers won't do the arithmetic as you have. Nor will most appreciate the implications of this given

    a) China has a population 20x that of Britain;
    b) what it means that they send a similar number to university as we do;
    c) that they have population mean IQ 5 points over ours;
    d) that they're better spatially than verbally
    e) that they run more science than arts courses (the opposite to us)
    f) that they run courses demanded by their economy
    g) that they eugenically manage their population

    h) that we have dysgenic below replacement level fertility.

    Conclusion: they waged and won a clever cold war and we never saw it.


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