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Do you back government's school reform plans?

09:12 UK time, Wednesday, 24 November 2010

Plans to overhaul the way teachers are trained in England and how schools are funded will be set out later as part of the government's education White Paper. How would these reforms affect you?
Education Secretary Michael Gove said he wanted to restore "the prestige, the esteem, the importance of teaching". But the Labour Party has accused Mr Gove of creating a competitive and segregated system.

As part of the plans, former troops will be offered sponsorship to retrain as teachers, and there will be new aptitude tests for the profession.

Are schools failing? What can be done to improve standards of schooling? Would you retrain as a teacher?

Thank you for your comments. This debate is now closed.

Comments

Page 1 of 8

  • Comment number 1.

    Only if the "reforms" include tackling the anti-semitism, anti-west, anti-female, anti-homosexual and anti-everything bile that's taught in certain religious schools of a certain religion of peace, love & harmony.

    Oh, and we should also give teachers their authority back, so that kids can't do what they like.

    And there's nowt wrong with a competitive system. That's how you achieve excellence.

  • Comment number 2.

    Mad Labour was bad enough but this is beyond the Pale!

  • Comment number 3.

    Why would anyone rate Michael Gove (or most other politicians) as an Education Minister? They have always been out and out failures, with dafgt preconceptions and even dafter ideas, pursuing reform for reform's sake to pretend they are making a positive contribution. No wonder most schoolkids loathe politicians even more than they loathe the most unpopular teachers!

  • Comment number 4.

    Resist, demonstrate and occupy.

    Viva La Revolution!

  • Comment number 5.

    I heard Michael Gove on the radio this morning and was broadly encouraged by what he said. If we are to give teachers back their authority and give them more flexibility in the classroom then that is a good thing. The government must also cut down on the ludicrous amount of record keeping that the National Curriculum requires at present, most of which is pointless and is never used except when Ofsted visit.
    I can certainly sympathise with those who complain about yet another shift in Education policy, but let us hope that this government will bring back some autonomy and authority to the teaching profession, instead of the 13 years of control freakery that has gone before.

  • Comment number 6.

    Anything which improves the lacklustre performances of both pupils and teachers is to be welcomed. They can't spell. They know little or nothing of grammar and even universities have had to create courses to bring entrants up to what was once an accepted standard.

    International statistics have proved what most of us already knew. We are third rate in our education standards which were once the envy of all other nations.

    I also agree with No 1.
    Let's end NuLabour's 'Prizes for All' mentality.

    People have, for years, been saying that we have dumbed down our education system but, like 'police on the streets' campaigners, have been ignored by the 'cognoscenti'.

  • Comment number 7.

    Some of the power needs to be put back into the hands of the teachers this could help reduce the number of exclusions and reduce the amount of violence that the teachers can face on a daily basis. Children have relised there is not a lot the teachers can do and are taking full advantage of this.

  • Comment number 8.

    Nuts!!! Can't wait to see those ex-military people negotiate the minefield of bureaucracy!
    This is another Tory attack on teachers saying they cannot control pupils, therefore bring in the military to sort it out. How ignorant are these Tory Lib-Dem MPs?

  • Comment number 9.

    I like the proposal to re-train soldiers as teachers. Hopefully improving school discipline and helping re-integrate soldiers into civilian life in one move...... killing two birds with one stone (or one SA-80) so to speak.

    The move to consider the ability of pupils a school has on intake, rather than exam results alone, is also a good idea.

  • Comment number 10.

    Another day, another rubbish announcement from the Tories.

    When will the politicians stop treating our underpaid and overworked teachers as a political football ?

    Also, some of Gove's ideas are just stupid - training ex-army officers to be teachers ? Sounds like another gimmick from a clueless "government".

  • Comment number 11.

    .. But the Labour Party has accused Mr Gove of creating a competitive and segregated system.''
    Perhaps that would not be a bad thing. Competition is good for achievement and prepares pupils for life after school. Segregating disruptive pupils from those that want to learn would be a brilliant idea. Certainly a change from the last government's plan that there should be at least one disruptive child in every classroom, so that there would be no advantage of one school over another. That's socialism for you. No surprise that where it came to their own children, they sent them to private and public schools.

  • Comment number 12.

    The Ghosts of John Galt wrote:
    Resist, demonstrate and occupy.

    Viva La Revolution!



    It's never going to happen mate; the British are far too apathetic and docile to ever take control of their lives and their government.

  • Comment number 13.

    The move to more school based training will lower standards in the profession. I have experience in both SCITT and university based training, and overwhelmingly those educated in universities have a much better theoretical understanding of how children learn and can adapt much better to changing demands. School trained teachers learn to follow a structure, but do not know why certain approaches work, and which is more likely to be successful. Generally they are less creative teachers. It shows the government's view of education as training to do a job, sadly many SCITT trained teachers will not have the long term adaptability to be successful in the classroom.

    As for more ex military staff in schools to restore discipline, there is discipline in the military because there are sanctions for those who step out of line and the system supports the discipliner. In education there are no sanctions (only rights of the misbehaving individual) and the system does not support action

  • Comment number 14.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 15.

    Well something has to be done: discipline is the first thing to be dealt with...unruly pupils (yes, pupils not students) should be removed from class and held in other classrooms..not just exluded and left to roam the streets...it's all such a mess, but let's hope this is the first step in the right direction.

  • Comment number 16.

    Kids have to realise that they shouldn't expect to be entertained all the time. There is more the life than Playstations and TV.
    Some kids think teachers are boring, school work is boring and homework too; and complain about it endlessly whining away.

    Its okay for teachers to know their stuff and try to impart what they know to kids without having to be children's entertainers too.

    If the kids and their parents don't realise that, then let the kids fall by the wayside. Natural selection rules definitely apply in education and we have all the issues with A-levels quality etc because NuLiebour tried to usurp them.

  • Comment number 17.

    I have no way of knowing if schools are failing or not.

    I do believe that as we age we become more critical of the academic standards of our young people, sometimes rightly, but sometimes I suspect because we don't recognise that the world has moved on.

    I also think that there has been too much political poking about in education, with little obvious benefit.

    I do wonder if there is sufficient emphasis on the responsibility of pupils/students and parents to get the best from education. The best teachers in the world can't help if the pupil does not engage.

    Anybody know what the dropout/failure rates are at university?

  • Comment number 18.

    The 40-year experiment with comprehensive education has failed. It was meant to provide, in Harold Wilson's words, "grammar schools for all", and to lead to increased social mobility. It has done neither. It has not raised standards – and, as the Sutton Trust has shown, we now have a less mobile society than in the 1950s and 1960s.

    In effect, selection by ability has been replaced by selection by neighbourhood. That is neither sensible, nor egalitarian. It is time to rid ourselves of an outworn dogma and explore practical ways of making our schools as good as we can make them.

  • Comment number 19.

    This government's education changes are typical of their muddled thinking about everything. The headlong rush to academies betrayed 1) their total lack of concern for children with any kind of special need or vulnerability [the Academies Act removed many safeguards and much of the provision for such young people] and 2) the sham that is 'localalism'. Er, how do you reconcile the (muddled and fallacious) notion of local determination of priorities, freedom from targets etc etc with this seizure of all things relating to education by the Secretary of State?

    Now we have the notion that any school where fewer than 35% of pupils get Grades A* - C will be deemed to be failing without any regard for the intake at yr 7. Labour introduced the very sensible notion of value added. This now appears to be abandoned. The inevitable consequence is that heads will be keen to offload any pupils who for whatever reason may not achieve this. Along with the academies nonsenses young people with behavioural problems, chaotic family life and any kind of special need will have less rather than more opportunity.

    And what's the rationale behind precipitating ex service personnel into teaching? There are plenty of other high quality public servants currently being thrown out of their jobs who would be equally suitable.

  • Comment number 20.

    Talking the talk is easy, and sounds logical, but I fear that the practice will not live up to expectations, as usual with any government initiative from any government.

    Michael Gove's reasoning for making changes is that we should take the best of what works around the world and create educational policy around that. It sounds great.

    But I hear about many schools that become centres of excellence in various areas of the curriculum, usually outwith the central structure. Take a school that is teaching children to speak Italian from age 6. That's great, but we then have to ask why all our children aren't learning a second language from an early age, as happens throughout the rest of Europe with no detriment to other subjects. And why Italian? Is it because their Primary teacher is Italian herself and so is immersing them this way? So should there be a language policy from Primary 1? My wife is a native Russian speaker and would happily teach Russian in Primary school (if she wasn't doing a second degree to change occupation), but we would then have some children growing up with one second language and others with a different one.

    And as for offering troops the opportunity to retrain as teachers - there are already too many teachers looking for work, at least in Scotland. This, unsurprisingly, is why my wife is retraining out of teaching.

    In an ideal world, with enough public money and goodwill to employ the right number of teachers to do a proper educational job, we should concentrate in the first few years on reading, writing and arithmetic - the 3 R's - with a second language being learned at this stage. I'd recommend Spanish, but perhaps any language would be acceptable. After the basics have been truly learned and demonstrably so, the pupils can then branch out into subjects like history, geography, science, maths, and many others, all from a strong foundation. And those who enjoy languages can pick up a third and even fourth language at a still early age. Primary school could be until the end of year 5, with a middle school of 3 years where the children's learning blossoms, followed by a more focussed curriculum for each child to attain high-standard qualifications that ready them for higher study or real-world use. It'll never happen, though.

  • Comment number 21.

    Another day another reform, same old, standards continue downward so trot out the spin statistics, make the exams easier, what a surprise 99.999% pass rate (up again on last year) We might smell a rat when it gets to 101% pass rate . Hang on though Maths isn't an exact science any more is it?
    As a teacher once said to our daughter. Well dear well done, its not quite right but its close and we know what you mean. Mmmm

  • Comment number 22.

    Just what experience have any of this goverbent of the state schooling system?
    No i do not trust any of our politicians with our education especially the tories, who's main aim is supply cheap Labour to their wealthy families and friends.
    WAKE UP sheeple the way to control the masses is divide and conquer and control the education system.

  • Comment number 23.

    So we have yet another millionaire privately educated individual (albeit through scholarship) to pontificate on an education system he was never really a big part of. Yet more moving of the goal posts, more tampering with teachers, and more super duper posts as if, like magic dust, they work.

    Typical coalition mumbo-jumbo. Kids need sustainable employment when they leave school Mr Gove. It is spelt J-O-B-S. Perhaps when they have something to aspire to they'll work at it. It is important not to be called a loser because you do not want to study academics; there is nothing wrong with practical things, physical things, outdoor things... the bits you do not appear to understand Mr Gove.

  • Comment number 24.

    About time too.

  • Comment number 25.

    Having no children this debate doesn't really affect me. However, what is annoying is the simple fact that once again a government has decided that a "shakeup" of a system is needed. Education, health, the list is endless but does anyone audit the results to see if there are improvements? Does anyone in government understand that most changes they make will not result in immediate improvements, that "productivity" will suffer as those affected worry more about how the changes will affect them rather than doing the job. Perhaps the best outcomes would be the result of politicians sitting on their hands and letting a system run for a few years and to monitor the results before scrapping it. I suspect we'll see pigs fly before politicians stop meddling.

  • Comment number 26.

    10. At 11:21am on 24 Nov 2010, Beige Rage wrote:

    Another day, another rubbish announcement from the Tories.

    When will the politicians stop treating our underpaid and overworked teachers as a political football ?

    Also, some of Gove's ideas are just stupid - training ex-army officers to be teachers ? Sounds like another gimmick from a clueless "government".


    Another day, another comment from Beige Rage criticising the coalition government.

    When will Beige Rage ever come up with an alternative idea of his own?

  • Comment number 27.

    Once again from this government, populist nonsense.
    Why should soldiers make good teachers, when apparently someone with a third from Cambridge won't? Also no mention has been made of teaching assistants who want to train up to be teachers, (I'm not in the profession, so I don't know what this scheme is called) how do they fit in here?
    I think we all know the best teachers aren't necessarily the best qualified, so why this arbitrary cut at a third class degree?
    Once again it seems, a weak unknown education minister is looking to make a name for himself by using education as the political football that it, along with the NHS has always been.
    Incidentally, no plans to re-jig Cameron's or Clegg's alma maters then.

  • Comment number 28.

    Never a day seems to go by without some chump changing something. Be it education, NHS, social housing and so on. Bring back Wat Tyler, all is forgiven. We need a new Peasants Revolt.

  • Comment number 29.

    "Do you back government's school reforms"? is the HYS question.

    Let's wait and see - it's only a White Paper so far.

    What would be more welcome would be a broader education base for all children in State Education. What this means is that there should be more integrated education, across the board, to reduce polarisation between race and religious ideology.

    There is too much ghettoisation (is that a word (?)) in State Education at the moment.

  • Comment number 30.

    I thought Labours school policy was bad but Gove is off his head lets have ex- soldiers restore discipline.if you don't do your homework we will shoot you.

  • Comment number 31.

    See that they want to go back to one exam and scrap course work.

    Partly because it "disadvantages boys".

    Hmm.

    If you are told that your coursework counts towards your final mark and you fail to do it then, to my mind, coursework has accurately identified the most stupid pupils.

    Surely employers want staff who can work consistently over a long period of time, rather than sit around for a couple of years and then make a real effort (which may, or may not produce a useful result) only in the last month of the task ?

    And - if the one final exam system really gives boys an advantage, won't the change in system just disadvantage girls ? Perhaps a compromise is needed where the student elects to either have the course work element or to be just judged on the performance on one day. This should allow all pupils to identify the system best suited to them.

  • Comment number 32.

    #9 "The move to consider the ability of pupils a school has on intake, rather than exam results alone, is also a good idea."

    They already do that.

  • Comment number 33.

    Given the appalling standards of literacy, numeracy and general knowledge of many school leavers, some radical changes must be welcome. Whether the present proposals are the right ones I don't know, but they can't be worse than what we have now.
    My expectations, however, remain low. Radical intentions by government usually get watered down and softened up by massive inertia in the civil service and through challenges by narrow interest groups. It takes strong leadership to drive through real change, and I don't see that in Michael Gove.

  • Comment number 34.

    I support the government’s measures. This looks like more 'joined up government' which has been missing for many years. The leftists and their sphere of influence are being removed from the public sector where they have infested for too long after their removal from the private sector in the 70's and 80's. The stark world of realism is being faced pragmatically and not 'head in the sand' or fantasy world of the loony left. We have to get rid of the incompetent teachers and teaching methods and make the educators perform for the money WE pay them as public servants. As OUR children’s education standards fall on the world scale, WE put more funds into the education system, now WE (the paying public) want results NOT excuses.

  • Comment number 35.

    I love the idea of ex-servicemen training to be teachers. After one day in some of our schools, they'll be crying out to be sent back to face the Taliban! It would be nice if rather than just tinkering around the edges, a government looked at more fundamental changes such as many more vocational opportunities, pupils resitting the year if they do not reach an acceptable standard in achievement or conduct and a secondary school graduation system that was regarded as significant and an essential qualification in all areas of society. But this won't happen. Why not? Because it would require a significant imput of resources and fundamental changes of attitude. Instead, we change the words but everything will carry on much as it did before. The idea of recruiting better qualified teachers is commendable. However, even in a recession, many young people will be put off by the often appalling conditions in which they attempt to work, the extremely long hours if you do the job properly and the contemptuous attitude to education shown by many parents and pupils which is unknown in places like Finland where teachers are highly qualified and respected.

  • Comment number 36.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 37.

    As an ex-SNCO with a TEFL qualification, which can be developed further, I would happily go into a classroom and teach. I would have no problems with unruly kids, should the government re-introduce disciplinary powers back into the classroom.
    Teaching and education in this country is a failed institution. You only have to view our educational standing in Europe to realise that. Having seen overseas schools first-hand, which has given me the luxury of comparison, I have been appalled at what I have seen at my nephews' & nieces' schools in UK. A sad, sad situation.
    Gove has a mountain to climb. Good luck to him.

  • Comment number 38.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 39.

    The Ghosts of John Galt wrote:
    Resist, demonstrate and occupy.

    Viva La Revolution!

    -----------------------------------
    Water cannon, tear gas, baton charge.

    Plus ca change!

  • Comment number 40.

    Ironic isn't it, the last Tory government spent years denigrating teachers and undermining their authority, now Gove appears to want to reverse the process.
    Their agenda is still the privatisation of education, reading Tory and Lib-Dem policy papers in the run up to the election make it clear that Education, like Health is an area they want to hand over to the private sector.

  • Comment number 41.

    Another year, yet another education "reform". Can someone tell me how many "reforms2 we have had in the last 40 years from all the Governments. It must be hell being a teacher having to follow through a new "policy" every year. Why cannot the politicians leave well alone for a couple of years.

  • Comment number 42.

    1. At 10:38am on 24 Nov 2010, SystemF wrote: Only if the "reforms" include tackling the anti-semitism, anti-west, anti-female, anti-homosexual and anti-everything bile that's taught in certain religious schools of a certain religion of peace, love & harmony.


    --------------------------------------------------
    Completely agree. You are only asking for what any civilised society would expect. Sadly it will be resisted by extreme right wing multiculturalists who see nothing wrong with the imposition of seventh century beliefs. The Panorama programme on this topic was largely ignored by BBC commentators...wonder why.

    As for the Government's 'school reform plans' this Government is hell bent on destroying education, except for the wealthy few, so why should we even consider them with any degree of respect.

    And please BBC and other reporters of news. Why do you insist in calling every package of cuts, of government meddling, as a reform?
    Do you have to accept the language - and therefore the values - of this worthless government.

  • Comment number 43.

    1. At 10:38am on 24 Nov 2010, SystemF wrote:
    Only if the "reforms" include tackling the anti-semitism, anti-west, anti-female, anti-homosexual and anti-everything bile that's taught in certain religious schools of a certain religion of peace, love & harmony.

    Oh, and we should also give teachers their authority back, so that kids can't do what they like.

    And there's nowt wrong with a competitive system. That's how you achieve excellence.
    ---------------------------------
    Well said. Children need to learn at an early age that life is competitive, that success has to be earned, and that bad behaviour has bad consequences.

  • Comment number 44.

    ...and another thing I thought you needed a degree to study to become a teacher. How many soldiers have a degree?

  • Comment number 45.

    Common sense at last. Education standards in this country are a disgrace and have steadily declined since 1960 when the comprehensive system was introduced by Labour in case ayone has forgotten, like the euro, one size does not fit all.
    Overworked and underpaid teachers, surely this is a joke, they will resist this as most are left wing it would seem and don't want their deficiencies brought to light.
    How on earth can you be taught to teach, you either have the capability to impart knowledge or you don't. I have a number of skills but do not have the ability to teach others.
    Get the children back to sitting in rows facing a teacher, there might then be less need for teaching assistants. How can anyone expect to teach with children being distracted by what others are doing when seated round a table. Hardly the best option for concentration.

  • Comment number 46.

    Beige Rage wrote:
    Also, some of Gove's ideas are just stupid - training ex-army officers to be teachers ? Sounds like another gimmick from a clueless "government".


    Why is this a stupid idea ?

    I retrained as a teacher when I left the military and it was the best decision I ever made. Teaching is a brilliant job that provides a great deal of pleasure and a real sense of achievement. After spending many years on military service it’s also nice to be able to make a positive contribution to society and helping children to achieve their potential is one of the best ways to make that contribution.

    I was able to build positive relationships with the vast majority of the children I taught, their parents and the teachers I worked with. Teaching also helped me to reintegrate back into civilian life, to establish my place in our local community and to give my life a new purpose while I was able to help provide a stable, disciplined and interesting environment for children to learn in.

    Teenagers, especially teenage boys, need strong, disciplined role models in their life to help guide them through the difficult transition from childhood to adulthood. At the moment many boys are growing up without a father at home and with very few male teachers at school; bringing veterans into the classroom could help to provide those role models while giving veterans a new purpose in life.

  • Comment number 47.

    There is a woolly approach to handling children and some discipline needs to be applied within the schools, that means untying the hands of teachers. we live in a target driven society and we have become to focused on them. I can only base my opinion on my observations at a school i work and the mess that pupils leave behind is a sign of a lack of discipline.

    Should we retrain soldiers to be teachers? Yes, not a bad idea as Billy pointed out (No. 9) but that process should be managed diligently.

    As former member of the Armed Forces i know you do not need a heavy handed a approach but sometimes you need to be assertive and authoritative.

    Most people would agree that something needs to be done. Anyone one got any better ideas?

  • Comment number 48.

    No Victim No Crime wrote:
    WAKE UP sheeple the way to control the masses is divide and conquer and control the education system.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Exactly what the we have had for the last 10 years with the Stasi Party. Just as well we got rid of them, now all thats left is to purge their 'insurgents' (Mandy's words not mine) from the system. Like the NUS rep at the school my daughter works in, telling all the new teachers they have 'secretly heard' that 'all new teachers are going to be sacked' so 'don't bother finishing your training, get a new career.'

    Sheeple yourself.

  • Comment number 49.

    There are basically three types of kids:

    1. The ones who will always do well, no matter how they are taught.

    2. The majority; who will do well if they are taught well, or badly if they are taught badly.

    3. The ones who will always do badly, no matter how they are taught.

    Mixed-ability teaching is letting the Type Twos down, because their education is being ruined by Type Threes.

  • Comment number 50.

    it bad now so we might as well try something new

  • Comment number 51.

    36. At 12:00pm on 24 Nov 2010, Darwins Chimp wrote:
    Do away with Faith schools : Has Gove done that. Does he intend to do that.
    ........................................................

    One policy that would get widespread support but he won't do it.

  • Comment number 52.

    Training ex soldiers. Been done before, after the war. They came out of the forces and were given a stick and a whistle. Good men put in the wrong situation for which they did not have the skills. Some who had suffered mental problems as a result of their war experiences developed certain behavioural characteristics and were consequently tormented by disobedient children. Some where just bullies with whistles, and when we were old enough we took revenge and beat them in the bike sheds. And some of the popular guys just filled up the day telling war stories.

    Teaching is an honourable profession and requires skills. Soldering is equally honorable and we should not expect our soldiers to easily transfer these skills into teaching.

    I have taught teaching skills to US forces, but they were part of a 4 year programme, which also included classics, communication studies,philosophy and I am sure could have embraced meeja studies arghhh.

  • Comment number 53.

    1. Schools have already failed
    2. Bring back 3 Rs
    3. I don't have the patience to be a teacher but they should be given back the power of corporal punishment

  • Comment number 54.

    Having gone into teaching via the GTP route (on the job training for graduates) following twenty years in engineering, then going on to become an advanced skills teacher (the highest teacher standard) and more recently becoming a University lecturer in teacher training I thoroughly disagree with Mr. Gove's idea that on the job training is the best form of teacher training.

    Yes, new teachers need more exposure to the classroom but they also need grounding in theory, especially in child development, protection and current pedagogic methods. Something that direct entry teachers do not have and as a result most will struggle to adapt in the coming years. No doubt moving out of the classroom as they do and into school management very quickly. It will be interesting to see just how many bail out of classroom teaching in this way.

    I fear Mr. Gove's ideas are another, here today gone tomorrow, politicians imposition of ideological mumbo jumbo onto the teaching profession. Maybe he should trust the teachers to sort out teaching and the curriculum (something they have never been asked to do by any previous government) , after all he doesn't tell doctors, engineers etc how to do their jobs.

    As for soldiers somehow having the 'right stuff' to be teachers, maybe some do. But is learning how to kill someone really the best starting point to learning how to teach our young children?

    Does education merely come down to a competition over some dubious league tables with other nations? I always though education was worth more than that to us all.

  • Comment number 55.

    If you want good education then stop teaching how to pass the exam and more of the core subject, when i was seven in 1965 EVERYONE in my class could complete the twelve times tables and could read and write.
    As pupils we took a pride in our abilities we also held our teachers in the highest regards. Well apart from Mrs Cooter who had issues with myself and made me stand in the class bin reciting i am rubbish, which explains my not so good grasp of the written English language.

  • Comment number 56.

    Don't really see a problem with most of what he's planning.

    Re the intro of ex-servicemen into the classroom. As long as they have a degree and they're prepared to undergo a PGCE like everyone else who wants to teach, that's OK. I'm not sure what he expects from soldiers though. I work in a school and I have to tell you that the kids are unlikely to be impressed by soldiers. Schools have no sanctions that the kids are afraid of so they'll just ignore any attempt at regimentation, shouting etc.

  • Comment number 57.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 58.

    There is not really a problem with schools. We already have an excess of well educated unemployed people in this country.

    According to the National Secular Society, we are going to have even more faith schools.
    https://www.secularism.org.uk/ever-more-faith-schools-to-be-cr.html
    I totally disagree.

  • Comment number 59.

    12. At 11:26am on 24 Nov 2010, General_Jack_Ripper wrote:
    The Ghosts of John Galt wrote:
    Resist, demonstrate and occupy.

    Viva La Revolution!


    It's never going to happen mate; the British are far too apathetic and docile to ever take control of their lives and their government.
    ------------------------------------

    Listen and look ! ;-)

  • Comment number 60.

    Over 30 years ago I was told by a lecturer that all teachers wanted was respect. To that end all they needed was a professional body dealing exclusively in the profession of teaching and educational methods and standards. With professional qualifications (letters after their names) teachers may get some of the respect they have lost due to them allowing faddy education 'theories' loose on our kids.

    It would mean the re-introduction of wage councils that look at what the private sector is paying professionals, takeing into account the time teachers are at school etc and compliance with it's proposals would be mandatory for governments (tatcher abolished similar schemes when they awarded teachers more than SHE wanted them to have. If that becomes the case again it is the responsibility of government to raise taxes from individuals and business so that teachers can be paid. NOT the case that teachers must be paid less so that others can be taxed less).

    As for discipline, out went the cane, good riddence (I was caned it did me no good whatsoever) and nothing is put in it's place to control unruly kids. So we get exclusion, kids sent home to oblivion. I would suggest that any child who disrupts class, or is bullying other kids is dealt with by the school, some sort of re-education (with the child kept seperate from their friends, even during play-time) that either works or the kid doesn't like and therefore wants to return to their friends.

    I read a teachers diary, printed in Private Eye, that would make you weep. The difficulties this teacher had in getting any sort of discipline from a bunch of disruptive kids was rage inducing. And then, the self-same teacher talked about other teachers who could maintain discipline with a hard stare. Control of kids by means, other than hitting them, should be first on EVERY teachers training course.

    When my kids were at school I pulled up the head of 3rd year English as I couldn't read his hand writing on my daughters school report. He laughed it off, saying that other teachers had complained about his poor handwriting. I print everything as my hand writing is bad, and I am not proud of this. If teachers looked at themselves before they whinge and critcise everyone else they would re-gain our respect.



  • Comment number 61.

    Bringing in troops to instil discipline sounds like a good idea. Misbehaving pupils can be sent out to run around the school playing fields. Oh, but the tories sold these off to housing developers in the 80s to make a quick buck. D'oh!

    @29: You can probably usify the word "ghettoization" (with a z) in America.

  • Comment number 62.

    39. At 12:04pm on 24 Nov 2010, PFC_Kent wrote:
    The Ghosts of John Galt wrote:
    Resist, demonstrate and occupy.

    Viva La Revolution!

    -----------------------------------
    Water cannon, tear gas, baton charge.

    Plus ca change!
    ------------------------------------

    Man the barricades......we are coming for you all! ;-)

  • Comment number 63.

    36. At 12:00pm on 24 Nov 2010, Darwins Chimp wrote:
    Do away with Faith schools : Has Gove done that. Does he intend to do that.

    It's no use just concentrating on the State schools, which can be in the main unruly and produce the next generation of criminals who may rob you or steal from you. These are the schools I suspect that he wants ex military to enrol for. More Tory Ideology. To keep the workers in their place from an early age. Show 'em whose boss. But they are no real threat just a nuisance to society.

    It is faith schools that are the real cause for concern they are producing the next generation of extremists. Refer back to Panorama on Monday. It's not only schools that promote "The Religion of Peace" that are suspect there are others such as the "Creationists" who are Faith Based that are spouting absolute claptrap and calling it truth. Undermining decades of scientific reason by constantly quoting the BuyBull as a source of knowledge.

    The Ex military should be in Faith Based schools, if they continue, at least we will be able to see children brought up and taught as children and not potential warriors of extremism.

    =======================================

    38. At 12:04pm on 24 Nov 2010, you wrote:
    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

    The above removed/non published comment was also popinting out many OPEN FACTS many of which have previously been reported on UK TV in various news broadcasts and documentarys. But unfortunately the BBC is as biased as the Saud government or Chinese government in publication of truth.

    Hence, in

    NOTHING

  • Comment number 64.

    Yet more attempts to roll back education by decades.
    Good for discipline, bad for exams.

    Never mind, it'll all get messed around all over again in a year or so....

  • Comment number 65.

    12. At 11:26am on 24 Nov 2010, General_Jack_Ripper wrote:
    The Ghosts of John Galt wrote:
    Resist, demonstrate and occupy.

    Viva La Revolution!

    It's never going to happen mate; the British are far too apathetic and docile to ever take control of their lives and their government.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    True. Although increasing numbers may roll their eyes and gently shake their heads.
    Be afraid.

  • Comment number 66.

    Why does the system need reforming? kids are getting better exam results every year!

    *ahem*

  • Comment number 67.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 68.

    It must be extremely frustrating for teachers and parents alike that education is under review yet again.

    Mr Gove's proposals have to be welcomed, however, if they bring about a radical improvement in the standards of literacy and numeracy throughout all schools. For too long, youngsters have finished their education barely able to read, write or add up, or even communicate in an intelligble fashion. When I was a lad, schools entered public speech competitions to prepare them for the big, wide world.

    When I hear/see some teachers, I'm not surprised with present-day standards. At my grandchildren's primary school, my daughter had to correct mis-spelling on one of the notice boards; needless to say, it was one of the teachers who couldn't spell. Being informed that the content is more important than presentation smacks of text-talk by 12-year olds without adequate qualifications to teach.

  • Comment number 69.

    Ex-servicemen and women as teachers? That won't work any better unless they have authority behind them simiar to what they have in the forces! Do governments in power actually think before they release their ideas?

  • Comment number 70.

    As a child of the sixties and a baby boomer, I can only thank my lucky stars that I went to schools in Scotland which had "re-trained" ex services staff - teaching me in primary school (yes we had lots of male teachers as well in primary school in those days who also coached in sport), plus very dedicated ex servicemen who taught me physics and chemistry as well as turning up on cold winter mornings to cheer on the rugby teams. As a result I left school with decent Highers and O levels as well as a retained affection and respect for teachers. Oh yes, discipline was rigorous and reinforced by the "tawse" or leather strap which provided instant retribution for serious demeanours - which was preferred to writing 100 lines of Tam O'Shanter, a preferred punishment by Tintacks as the late Dr Rintoul, our English teacher was known. We were also taught how to spell and correct use of the apostrophe! Foreign languages? We started to learn French or Spanish in the last year of Junior school with a mandatory O-level in a foreign language.

    Roll on the new teaching regime - please! Let's have some literate and numerate employees at last.

    Craig McCallum
    Malmesbury

  • Comment number 71.

    30. At 11:52am on 24 Nov 2010, frankiecrisp wrote:
    I thought Labours school policy was bad but Gove is off his head lets have ex- soldiers restore discipline.if you don't do your homework we will shoot you.

    ---------------

    Right... because ex-soldiers keep their guns when they leave the army. Twit.

  • Comment number 72.

    Any system is better that new labour system of educating "the wheat with the chaff"...
    The present Labour system does harm to both the academic and the practical student .
    It achieves less for the individual , Dumbs downs all subjects
    It is the cause of boredom and disruption in the classroom

    New Labour "combine-harvester" needs to be replaced (sell it off to India -Mandys good at that) Then replace it with a new machine that doesn't goes round in ever decreasing circles until it spins on it's own axis shouting " Education education eradiction "
    Children need to have thier ability nurtured not neutered.
    That, probably would needs some form of by selection -academic and practical

    There is nowt wrong with being a tradesman, Not everbody can gain a degree in Media studies or politically claptrap

    In fact tradesmen earn higher wages that most graduates... throughout there working life

    Selection is the key to a successful nation

    Changes are overdue

  • Comment number 73.

    Just let the teachers educate the kids.

  • Comment number 74.

    31. At 11:53am on 24 Nov 2010, Jonn wrote:
    See that they want to go back to one exam and scrap course work.

    Partly because it "disadvantages boys".

    Hmm.

    ***************************************************

    I totally agree with this ('this' being your post, not scrapping coursework!)
    Many pupils become stressed around exam time and so do not perform their best- coursework only stresses you if you leave it until the last minute.

    In my uni finals, we were told to use referencing. I could barely spell any of the names, never mind remember them (I do remember one foreign sounding name which was 23 letters long!).

    In coursework, the more effort you put in, the better your mark. For exams, a lot is based on what you revised/how it goes on the day.

    Life is more like coursework, so testing should also be.

    I could just be biased because I always did better in coursework (and best in presentations)

  • Comment number 75.

    When I was at school (1960s) anyone who got 5 O'levels was pretty damn smart and destined for greater things.

    Today obtaining a degree seems to lead to debt and the dole queue.

    What jobs we do have are filled by imported labour.

    I think a good look at what is going on on the other side of the Channel is in order. Their schools seem to turn out employable people.

  • Comment number 76.

    Just why Gove thinks ex-troops are any more suitable than anyone else for training as teachers....

    Teaching is a unique discipline, that takes a particular mindset, and vocation, to do. Start with offering a decent salary and raise the respect due them, and you're half way there.

  • Comment number 77.

    All they are doing is putting it back to the way it was before the Labour lot took over and destroyed a whole generation's future career prospects. So I don't see how anyone could argue that this was a bad thing given our education system was one of the best in the world for decades until the naive, incompetent, unable to think beyond the next headline Liebore politicians took over and started their useless meddling. I almost wet myself this morning when the current Labour numpty was saying how their ideas prepared kids for work in the real world - strange how all the employers and Universties are complaining about kids being unable to read, write, spell or add up and knowing so little of any consequence. Maybe that's the criteria for becoming a Labour politician or Labour voter but then socialist policies have never actually worked in the real world so maybe it's just more of the fantasy that Labour MP's and supporters have created for themselves - the fantasy where not everything the Labour paty has touched has turned to the proverbial brown stuff, the country hasn't been bankrupted by their incompetent spending, the country isn't in a war based on a tissue of untruths spouted by the head Labour hypocrite Tony Bliar etc. etc.

    I'm sure the usual pro-Labour contributors will be here scrabbling around to find something to justify why they are automatically anti anything the Tory party does whether it makes sense or not. I can't wait to see their bizarre logic to explain how being able to read and write is bad for a child. Personally I thank the stars for every day the Coalition is in power as they slowly clean up the mess the fantasists left.

  • Comment number 78.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 79.

    45. At 12:08pm on 24 Nov 2010, Lynn from Sussex wrote:
    Common sense at last. Education standards in this country are a disgrace and have steadily declined since 1960 when the comprehensive system was introduced by Labour in case ayone has forgotten, like the euro, one size does not fit all.
    Overworked and underpaid teachers, surely this is a joke, they will resist this as most are left wing it would seem and don't want their deficiencies brought to light.
    How on earth can you be taught to teach, you either have the capability to impart knowledge or you don't. I have a number of skills but do not have the ability to teach others.
    Get the children back to sitting in rows facing a teacher, there might then be less need for teaching assistants. How can anyone expect to teach with children being distracted by what others are doing when seated round a table. Hardly the best option for concentration.

    -------------------------------------------------------------
    You have a number of skills, but not the ability to teach others. You do, however, have the ability to tell those who do have the ability to teach how they should be doing their job. And of course you have the insight to just know that all teachers are left-wing, and that they are not over-worked or under-paid.

    Hmmm. I reckon you must be in the finance sector. You seem to know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

  • Comment number 80.

    Has anyone asked the teachers?
    Which school did Michael Gove teach at?
    Seems like there is soon to be redundancies in the army very soon now don't you think?
    Training on the job will mean more job losses in the education sector....perhaps these could have fast track promotions in the army.

  • Comment number 81.

    17. At 11:28am on 24 Nov 2010, myneerkop wrote:

    I have no way of knowing if schools are failing or not.

    I do believe that as we age we become more critical of the academic standards of our young people, sometimes rightly, but sometimes I suspect because we don't recognise that the world has moved on.

    I also think that there has been too much political poking about in education, with little obvious benefit.

    I do wonder if there is sufficient emphasis on the responsibility of pupils/students and parents to get the best from education. The best teachers in the world can't help if the pupil does not engage.

    Anybody know what the dropout/failure rates are at university?


    14% drop out; 22% fail.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2075348/One-in-seven-students-drops-out-of-university.html

  • Comment number 82.

    16. At 11:28am on 24 Nov 2010, Mike from Brum wrote:

    Some kids think teachers are boring, school work is boring and homework too; and complain about it endlessly whining away.
    =================================================

    Probably because it is. A good teacher makes a subject interesting.

  • Comment number 83.

    Who would be a teacher, a fireman, a police officer or any other public servant for that matter because whenever we have a change of minister or government then they are always right and the public servants are always incompetent and useless.

    No one ever stops to consider that decades of government interference and watering down of teacher’s authority and constant criticism of them has constantly undermined them in the eyes of the parents. Read your local papers and see how hard it is for a school to expel even the nastiest of pupils.

    As for ex-service personnel becoming the miracle cure are they joking. No offence to the service personnel but even the services will tell you that you have to have the basic material before you can train a good soldier and there is lies the crux of the matter.


    It is not our schools which are failing it is our society.

    Whole communities of none working families with no hope of work in the near future.

    How do you motivate a child at school when everyone they know is sitting around out of work and showing no interest to their child’s education?
    Personally I wouldn’t be concerned about the 40 children who made it to Oxbridge but I would be concerned as to why so many children require free school meals.

    If you want to improve our children’s education improve their lives by creating jobs for their parents.


    Give them hope.

  • Comment number 84.

    There is much ironic about this Coalition: they trumpet a philosophy of smaller government, more local control, the Big Society, yet here is the half-baked Mr. Gove, trying to impose any number of half-baked schemes from his Ministry of Muddling, Meddling and Mucking About.
    The latest wheeze is to beat swords into ploughshares, by turning warriors into pedagogues.
    That's 'pedagogue', from the Greek paidagogeo(παιδαγωγέω), a slave who accompanied his master's son to school.
    Nothing new there, then.

  • Comment number 85.

    It seems that the vast majority of people on here see school as the place for children to learn to behave/ learn morality and a good attitude. Sorry, but as a parent that is my responsibility not the government nor the education systems.

    Succesive governments are failing to resolve the root cause of many of society's issues; i.e we do not take responsibilty for our own actions; kids are being failed by their parents not the state.

  • Comment number 86.

    At 12:26pm on 24 Nov 2010, The Ghosts of John Galt wrote:
    12. At 11:26am on 24 Nov 2010, General_Jack_Ripper wrote:
    The Ghosts of John Galt wrote:
    Resist, demonstrate and occupy.

    Viva La Revolution!


    It's never going to happen mate; the British are far too apathetic and docile to ever take control of their lives and their government.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    The paradox of your statements is that this government WANTS people to take responsibility for their own lives, NOT the state. The defenders of the status quo of the dependency culture are the complainants as they have become decedent and lazy, fuelled by state funds which we do not have. Your right the revoultion is about to begin, but it is a right wing one and will result in more liberty as people will be encouraged (forced) to take more reponsiblity for THEIR lives and THEIR actions. The left have had their day after making a right mess of everything (as they always do!)

  • Comment number 87.

    It is gratifying to note that our 'well educated' students are again holding demonstrationa about the rise in iniversity tuition fees. If these people are the best of the best do they really not possess either the intelligence or reading skills to understand the changes?

  • Comment number 88.

    "67. At 12:38pm on 24 Nov 2010, The Ghosts of John Galt wrote:
    Troops to teachers? Will they bring their guns and bombs with them?

    I really do not want my little daughter being taught by some ex-'storm trooper'! And I really do not think such folk - trained to kill - should be in classrooms - Oh dear, oh dear!

    The fascists are coming to a class room near you soon!

    -------------

    1. Ex-servicemen don't have guns and bombs, so you are clearly ignorant.
    2. What makes you think an 'ex-stormtrooper' can't be a good teacher?
    3. Wanting to keep sections of society out of certain careers, makes you the fascist in my opinion - not the ex-servicemen (and women).

  • Comment number 89.

    All pupils should be taught to read, write grammatically correctly, spell properly & to be mathematically proficient. Discipline should be taught at home & reinforced in the classroom. School is meant to equip pupils to meet the challenges of life; it is not meant to be "fun" & nor is it meant to be "entertaining", though it should be interesting.

    I think that many ex troops would make good teachers - they know the meaning of discipline & it would mean more males becoming teachers which would be a good thing as there is an unhealthy predominance of female teachers at the moment.

    Finally, teachers should be prohibited from peddling left wing propaganda & political correctness. Pupils should be allowed to think for themselves, not brainwashed by others.

  • Comment number 90.

    60. At 12:27pm on 24 Nov 2010, JohnH wrote:
    Over 30 years ago I was told by a lecturer that all teachers wanted was respect. To that end all they needed was a professional body dealing exclusively in the profession of teaching and educational methods and standards. With professional qualifications (letters after their names) teachers may get some of the respect they have lost due to them allowing faddy education 'theories' loose on our kids.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    I'm sorry but you don't just "get respect", you have to earn it. Having letters after your name or a title such as Doctor or Professor does not mean you automatically "get respect".

    Unfortunately there are a number of teachers who will never, ever, have the respect of their pupils because they are simply not good enough at their job. They are in a minority but their failings cast a shadow over those who are competant. If changing the methods of training will correct this then it should be welcomed. Ex-Forces members as teachers? Yes, as long as they are suitably qualified and trained, I note that the American scheme it is based on requires the individual to hold a degree but that this governments proposal does not mention that aspect.

  • Comment number 91.

    4. At 10:52am on 24 Nov 2010, The Ghosts of John Galt wrote:

    Resist, demonstrate and occupy.

    Viva La Revolution!

    =====================

    I think its a few years off Yet GJG, most are still happy with work/skive , soaps, xfactor, wine and "not my problem".

    But, Im sure its coming, What worries me is its my kids who will have to do the fighting.

  • Comment number 92.

    45. At 12:08pm on 24 Nov 2010, Lynn from Sussex wrote:
    Common sense at last. Education standards in this country are a disgrace and have steadily declined since 1960 when the comprehensive system was introduced by Labour in case ayone has forgotten, like the euro, one size does not fit all.
    Overworked and underpaid teachers, surely this is a joke, they will resist this as most are left wing it would seem and don't want their deficiencies brought to light.
    How on earth can you be taught to teach, you either have the capability to impart knowledge or you don't. I have a number of skills but do not have the ability to teach others.
    Get the children back to sitting in rows facing a teacher, there might then be less need for teaching assistants. How can anyone expect to teach with children being distracted by what others are doing when seated round a table. Hardly the best option for concentration.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Some times you talk some rot, smaller class sizes max 20 pupils would give our children the education they deserve, every thing else is avoiding the question. It works in private schools. Oh so their is value on childrens Education, how much the Tax payer will coff up.

  • Comment number 93.

    It will be a joy if Michael Gove can bring back rigorous examining and a high standard to British Education.
    Yes, an emphasis on teaching but teachers have to be allowed to exert discipline without fear of prosecution at every turn.

  • Comment number 94.

    43. At 12:06pm on 24 Nov 2010, Rabbitkiller wrote:

    Well said. Children need to learn at an early age that life is competitive, that success has to be earned, and that bad behaviour has bad consequences.


    That would be fine if all children had the same opportunity to compete and had a level playing field on which all competed. As it is, some have the best running shoes, studs, aerodynamic outfit on a brand new track with the wind behind them, others run in bare feet on cinders in a headwind, yet more in clogs burdened down by lead weights and heavy clothes on a rough uphill track.

    Moreover education should not be about selecting winners and losers but about ensuring all achieve their potential.

  • Comment number 95.

    At 12:47pm on 24 Nov 2010, panchopablo wrote:
    Just let the teachers educate the kids.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    I think everyone agrees with you, but it appears that many teachers are NOT good enough or their teaching methods are not good enough as falling standards show. I want my kids to read and write and do basic maths when they come out of school, I do not want excuses for incompetence as another generation goes poorly educated

  • Comment number 96.

    57. At 12:22pm on 24 Nov 2010, AuntieLeft wrote:

    The idea of ex servicemen and women into teaching is a GREAT idea. They are in and have experience of, the REAL world, not some loony left fantasy as many teaching 'professionals' are at present. When they replace all the incompetent teachers (who hopefully be sacked) who can then go and live in a 'peoples' paradise like North Korea and see what socialism is and what is does to humans.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    All very well. But you have shot yourself in the foot with you usual rant about socialism. The services are the closest you will get to socialism in its purest form.

    Just think about it : They all live together they all wear the same clothes. They all have to go to sleep at the same time. They all travel together when they are at their unit. They even walk at the same pace at the same time. They eat together eating similar foods. So if that is your idea of the REAL world then perhaps you should lie down and read a book. Perhaps about Attila the Hen who was decimating this country in the 1980's then you will be refreshed when you wake up and ready for those pesky Commies

  • Comment number 97.

    "18. At 11:34am on 24 Nov 2010, Magi Tatcher wrote:

    The 40-year experiment with comprehensive education has failed. It was meant to provide, in Harold Wilson's words, "grammar schools for all", and to lead to increased social mobility. It has done neither. It has not raised standards – and, as the Sutton Trust has shown, we now have a less mobile society than in the 1950s and 1960s."

    I won't accuse you of lying but what you are saying is factually incorrect. University attendance from poor backgrounds was a much smaller percentage under grammar schools than it is now. That is a statistical fact that can be verified by looking at any text book on the subject.
    What we are seeing is a falling number of graduates from the poorest sections of society but not as low as they were fifty years ago.
    Maybe I'm naturally paranoid but I smell a rat with Groves new scheme. Will we see funding going into a select group of academies? Will schools in poorer areas choose a curriculum that does not require as much academic rigour thereby hamstringing their brighter pupils from gaining qualifications for Russell group unis? ( effectively a return to tripartite )
    Will these non - graduate ex squaddies be sent into problem schools to instil discipline rather than teach as they will likely be lacking in subject specialisations themselves.
    At my school in the seventies we still had some war trained teachers. They stood out for their reliance on discipline and lack of subject knowledge.

  • Comment number 98.

    My childs teacher is 24, a lovely girl, buy, isnt very good a maths, and Is part of our "Uni experience" graduate program, so really 24teen.

    Teachers need experience, preferably with children of their own. Graduates should be teaching assistants for a few years before trying their hand at something they cant handle.

    When it comes to childrens behaviour, I think recent years have shown our experts to be very wrong in teaching teachers how to bring up children.

    An affinity with children is something that not everyone has or can even learn to have, and good intention, salary or pension should not be the main reason for a career with children.

  • Comment number 99.

    Quite frankly, anything that reduces the loony left influence in schools is very very welcome. The loony lefty one that always amused me was the one whereby there were to be no "competetive" subjects such as sport.

    I also remain amused by the dear old Beeb usual stance. the Beeb accepted Labours loony school reforms without question, but the coalition ones have to be put up on a forum don't they?

    As I write, students are protesting (Rioting) all over the UK, because they feel they are "Entitled" to things they have not and will not work for. From whither and whence does this "Entitlement" culture come?

    Do we need to change education? You bet your sweet life we do!

  • Comment number 100.

    45. At 12:08pm on 24 Nov 2010, Lynn from Sussex wrote:
    Common sense at last. Education standards in this country are a disgrace and have steadily declined since 1960 when the comprehensive system was introduced by Labour in case ayone has forgotten, like the euro, one size does not fit all.


    In case you'd forgotten (or never knew) the Education secretary who converted more grammar schools to comprehensives than any before or since was Margaret Thatcher.

    One size may not fit all, but two sizes that fit very few and make choices on an arbitrary test at a young age is certainly wrong. Many incorrectly chosen for Grammars struggled and failed and the majority selected for Secondary Moderns failed because they had been told they were failures and for no other reason.

    Could you defend a system in which an 11 plus failure then went on to get straight As at A level, went to Oxford and got a PhD? You may argue it worked for them, but how many could have done that but were classed as "failures" so stopped trying?

 

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