Ali So, how competitive is the film industry?

Gareth I think you have to recognise it's a high stakes game. There's often a lot of money riding on a film success or otherwise. And I sort of liken it too, if you take for example the motor industry, you can choose to go into the broader sense of making your everyday, run of the mill cars or you can choose to want to work in F1. And joining the film industry is sort of like choosing to to join the F1 circuits. So it's recognised that there's about ninety thousand people in the UK that are specifically working in the film industry and if you could take that as a comparison against the wider workforce throughout the whole of the UK it is quite a sort of narrow target. But it is there to be achieved and one of the things that my current job requires me to do is to find, train and retain fifteen thousand new starts. We recognise in our industry we need to get about another fifteen thousand people started in the screen industries to just continue to service this brilliant production boom that we're in at the moment.

Ali Because Britain is doing very well in terms of encouraging investors to come in and shoot him in the UK have loads of different big international studios like Leavesden you mentioned earlier and Pinewood that are like struggling to find space to fit in all the different productions.

Gareth And it's not just the physical infrastructure of the studios themselves. We also have to pay a care to make sure that we're developing the workforce alongside that. I mean in the UK last year, I think it's something like two point four billion pounds was spent on film production and you know we were a very important part of the UK economy. Some say we even kept the UK out of recession last year, the creative industries. So this has gone from being just a little cottage industry where telling twee little stories and doing lots of British period dramas. We are now one of the world leaders in this space. People love making their programmes here.

Shanai Can I still get into the industry if I fail my exams? 'Cos I know as a young person in the pressure that the school industry puts on you for these final exams that represent you for the rest of your life. But do they?

Gareth I've often found when I had sorta recruitment responsibility, it was more about the person that was in front of me than the qualifications that they had. And quite often what would make someone's application sparkle was those things that they did in the weekends in the evenings and outside of the school curriculum that showed that real passion for these things. So when people sorta say, "OK, if I don't do well in my exams is over for me?" I say "No. Not at all." But make sure that you're finding opportunity for that passion for the industry to shine.

Ali This is a tough question, but how do I overcome rejection? Bearing in mind, of course, that is a part of what this industry and is a part of like working lives. You're not gonna walk into the first job you've ever dreamed of and gone um can I have that job, please?

Shanai Yeah.

Ali It's tough, isn't it.

Shanai Yeah.

Gareth I think what's important is to recognise that very very rarely is it personal. It is just about the context that job, or maybe some of the other candidates that were there. I think it's important to try and stay mentally strong around that. And you know do your homework before you go in and try and find out about the company that you're approaching. And if for whatever reason it doesn't work around on work out on this time, chances are there will be other occurrences where it might have a more favourable outcome.

Ali Would you agree that a kind of positive mental attitude and I don't use the word charm here, but a kind of personability really goes a long way because in my limited experience in this world, it is often the person that gets along with everyone else. Who has a smile on their face and is optimistic and willing to give a shot that gets that chance. Maybe not that time but like you say next time around.

Gareth I think we have to recognise that the film industry is a people business and and being personable is important. The one thing I would like to say is that we quite often get this sort of slight stereotype of everyone who works in the film industry is high fiving each other and turning handsprings in the corridor. There is as much quiet and deliberate detailed work that is done in other departments like the effects another side. I think there are as many different jobs as there are as many different character types, but that recognising that you're going to be working with others is important.

Shanai So I think this one is aimed at Ali, over here. So what is your advice for people looking to get into film journalism?

Ali Right. Yeah. This is a tricky one. Please chip in on this because I don't think there's a hard and fast answer to this one. It's hard, like, if we're talking about there only being so many jobs within the film industry generally, film journalism is an increasingly small occupation.

Magazines aren't doing as well as they used to and more and more of what you view as film journalism i.e. people who know about movies, talking about movies is deemed as something that is given out for free. You can go to YouTube and find some very clever people, talking very eloquently about movies and you're not expecting to transfer any cash from you to them.

So, as an industry, it's a tricky one because I want to say that actually film journalism is almost better than it's ever been. It's just not being paid for. You can go online and watch, like an honest trailer or a whole host of other different things that are comic and funny and interesting and informed. Everyone's talking about movies. It's a big part of like our society.

But in terms of getting a job, I won't lie, it is tricky. I recommend kinda doing it for yourself. Like start your own, like, YouTube series. Maintain a presence on social media, be somebody who's talking with the other journalists that you'd like to be, become part of their world. And so often Twitter or Instagram or whatever, it's the, "Oh I recognise that guy", or that girl or whatever, they often say, interesting, valuable stuff and it is part of our conversation. That's how you get the chance I'd say.

But work experience, that's the other thing. You can't forget work experience. Increasingly, the making tea and whatever is a big part of it because it just means you're there to get the opportunity when it comes along. Patience is another big part of it. And, and this is the boring answer, read, read, read, read. Watch, watch, watch, watch. Write, write, write, write.

You don't get good, that's the grammar for you, at anything by just being talented. You have to both be talented and put in a load of hard graft. When I first started doing work experience at Empire magazine, I remember after going to uni, thinking, I was you know, the top dog there. I thought I was great. I walked in there and everything I wrote just got torn apart. In a good way, as people said, how about this? How about that? How about this? How about that? So give yourself time to get better and know that practice and determination will be what will lead you to any form of success. I wish it was just a case of "I'm great at this". It's like riding a bike I'm great at this now, but it's not. You get better through trial and error and a lot of patience.

Gareth One of the big things have changed recently is, as you say, that ability to make their own content. And so if you go twenty, thirty years ago, you probably had a dozen, two dozen film critics, that were sort of highly regarded. Whereas now, we'll call, quite often get critiqued by someone who's a younger person or will send in a tweet or something like that. And we, as film makers do really pay attention to that because that's our audience. So making your own content, but making sure that content is well researched and delivered well.

Shanai so I think pursue new routes like through social media and just don't be afraid to start making content.

Ali Yeah, I think. Don't, I mean agree with me, please. Gareth, but everything I did when I first got started. If I look back on it now, I would be horrified. You have to go through that teething process of wow my haircut was terrible. And I didn't put my mark on properly and I was unfocused, like this right now, but you will get there. You will get there, but it's not instant. So just give yourself a chance and you'll get there.

If everyone was brilliant, right out the traps, then. I think it would be a very dull industry, wouldn't it, you know. We can't all be Saoirse Ronan who seemed to be just born like she's like fourteen or went "No, I'll have an Oscar nomination, please".

Gareth Other actresses are also available.

Ali What do you recommend for getting into film producing, as opposed to acting, any tips?

Gareth Well, I think any of the roles that are behind the camera as opposed to performance roles, you really need to do your research and understand what does that job mean. I quite often when I'm out with people say what does a producer do? And they ask me and I ask them and I always say "Well a producer is someone that looks at the commercial opportunity with the creative idea and has to find the marriage between those two things". That's not to say that every project need to find lots and lots of money for, but it's the balance you find with those things. So if you want to go make a massively expensive Sci-Fi. You probably need materials that are going to warrant that sort of finance being attracted. If you want to make a very intensely personal story, that's part of your life, whatever, that might have a much lower sort of financial outlay. So you might be able to do that yourself. So it's finding the balance between those two things. Its research. It keeps coming back to research, research, research. Every good producer needs to know what nearly everyone else on that set is there to do. And can manage that environment, of what's sometimes hundreds, if not thousands of people and you would be able to oversee that.

Ali And you were an assistant director for, you said, thirteen years and you kind of moved into producing. Is that a typical route?

Gareth It's not really. In fact, it's quite funny when I picked up the Oscar. They refer to me as an overnight success. Not realising that I'd actually been in the industry for eighteen years. But no in terms of how traditional pathway, so quite often people coming into producing will have an interest in both the creative and the commercial. If people are really interested in for example, the technical roles of camera, sound, electrical. They will have gone off in a slightly different direction. So producers tend to be people that have an interest in the creative and interest in the commercial. That's a happy marriage of those two things that makes really good producers.

Ali This is a big one because I will be stealing your answer and putting in production pretty quickly. But how'd you come up with your ideas for films? And just keep it brief, cos I wanna write it down.

Gareth OK very good. So already I've got this idea about you two featuring in a story that I will produce. I'm really open. So I, I take inspiration from a number of different places. Sometimes it's a piece of music that I've heard. Sometimes it's something I've seen in nature. It quite often can be something that I've read in a newspaper or heard on the news. A lot of my stories are around sort of human condition or what it means to be you know a good human person. So pretty much all the six movies that I've produced has had an element of hope in them. It's had an element of what we consider being human means. So I'm really receptive, whether it's piece of music, comic books or something's happened in the news, something that's happened to me, personally. I'm really really sort of open to where I get my ideas from and quite a lot of people just pitch them to me and I get to sit there and go OK, I like the idea of that. And, yeah, not so much on that one. And you sort to work out what your next stories might be.

Ali So you're not the kind of producer that's kind of reading the new books that are being released and going this might be one to turn into X film.

Gareth So literary sources is a really strong one and there are those that spend a lot of time canvassing all the new releases and keeping an eye. The thing is that is actually quite a sophisticated process and by the time that the likes of I might be finding out a copy on a shelf somewhere, chances are the rights may well have already been pre-sold much, much earlier in the process. I remember there was a book that was turned into a film about six years ago and asked my head of development why he hadn't brought it to my attention and he said all the rights are actually sold in 1984.

Ali Woah. Well there you go. Right, so we need to make sure making a movie in 2029 by a book that's gonna be written tomorrow. Great. Excellent.

Ali What separates award winners and award nominees?

Gareth Trophies! Er, no. So, basically I vote for BAFTA and the BAFTA awards. I vote for the Oscars. I also vote for the Producers Guild of America and a number of others. So the way that most awards processes work is that there is a big, long list of everything that has been made that year that list gets voted on and becomes a shortlist, the shortlist becomes the nominations. The nominations are then voted on by that organisation to elect a winner. But there are as many brilliant films that have not won awards that has won awards.

Ali And also film makers that we all agree, and stop me from here, are incredible. For example, Christopher Nolan has not won an Oscar. And bear in mind it is basically just a gold star. No offence on your jacket because there are many universally regarded as greats who haven't got that gold star and there are many directors and actors that eventually got their award the big, shiney gold man after, er, several decades of being excellent. And they don't actually win for their best performances, not naming any names, but you know who you are.

Shanai So you're talking from a film making perspective, what advice would you give to people making short films?

Gareth Firstly, they are really really credible way of learning your craft in terms of learning to tell stories. And actually getting something to working in short form content is really quite a challenge; telling a story that sort of encapsulated within that short form content. I think I'd encourage you to be bold, you know some of the best short films I've ever seen been really quite remarkable in terms of their ambition. Don't feel constrained by the fact you're making something that is short, that isn't ambitious. I think going online, doing some research about others that have been made before, 'cos quite often your brilliant idea may not be the first time that brilliant idea has come about. So trying to make sure that your content is original is really important. I think the other thing is don't get caught up on technology, so many people send me stuff and go "Oh I couldn't afford lights and I couldn't afford a grade and I couldn't afford to do this and couldn't afford to ...". Actually I'm not looking at that. I'm looking at that original spark. What makes this film maker really really interesting? So look, chill out about the technology, just make really brilliant, ambitious shorts.

Ali The thing about short films to me, is that so many of my favourite films started off as short films. If we look at one recent favourites, What We Do in the Shadows, that was Jemaine Clement and Taika Waititi's short film, that they kind of showed around. And someone said, actually if you turn this into a longer one we might give you the money to make it into a proper film. Further to that, you know, some short films give you awards and credit and you can kind of, they your calling card. And they're much better, I think, than just going, well I'm very talented. You'll just have to take my word for it.

Gareth There is now a real industry that's evolved around the promotion and marketing and selling of short film content and we quite often will keep an eye on how those competitions are running to see where those new film makers are coming from. Baker's a great example of that.

Shanai So where do you think, where is a good place to publish these films for young people? Is it on You Tube? Is it on social media?

Ali I would I would say you could publish anywhere. To me, it's about where you take it to. Like you have to find the film first festival for you, or it might be something that starts off in your school, or your university and then get a bit of buzz there and you take it to, I don't know the Sheffield, Doc/Fest. You know there are ways of taking out your bubble and moving on to elsewhere. It doesn't need to just be, well, I've pressed go on You Tube and I've only got one thousand views. So why am I not here? In my mind, you have to take it out there.

Gareth There are established festivals and markets now and also schemes where if you've got a great idea, but maybe you think you're gonna need a bit of support to get that short film made. There are places you can go for funding, like Short flicks and things like that.

Ali And going back to Gareth's point about not necessarily having, you know, the giant red camera that will shoot every single fibre of everyone's shirt. So many good movies are shot with, like, not very good cameras at all. Steven Soderbergh has shot movies entirely on phones. So just bare that mind. Now he is Steven Soderbergh, and you're probably not, let's be honest, but it is possible. It can be done.

Ali OK, this is another tricky one. I think a lot of producers would like to know the answer to this. How do you keep the audience hooked throughout a film?

Gareth I think you've got to keep the story progressing. I think it's really important that you keep engaging. You know, so many films will have some wonderful moments in, but it's like a great recipe. Unless you've, you know you've got all these wonderful ingredients, unless it comes together as a really brilliant recipe, they are just sort of just moments. So, in some films I've seen, some scenes that you just go, your heart weeps, or you're in, you know, on cloud cuckoo land. It's just, you know, these peaks and troughs and I think it's important that the film makers have just kept engaging throughout. You know you need to make sure that you are delivering and experience to that audience.

Ali Yeah and also just work closely if you're a director with a screenwriter. I'm of the opinion that the script is basically king. Like I'm sure many directors don't wanna hear that but I think if it's not there in the script then you can't necessarily improvise yourself into a thoroughly engaging movie that for ninety minutes plus, keeps your eyes on the prize, the whole time. I think working with scriptwriter is essential and I, if I were Mr Director or Mrs Director I would have the screenwriter on set. Is that something you do at all?

Gareth Yeah, it is slightly contentious. There are projects I've made where the director would rather that there is the handing over of the creative baton. So the writer writes, the director directs and producers produce. But some good shows, particularly into the TV space, they will have the show runners and writers on set because sometimes a cast member might ask for some additional dialogue to be written or they might have a question over where the characters come from. And whilst the director is often the first person that would be responding to that question sometimes having the writer there is also a really good way to help.

Ali Or just be prodigious talent and be Tarantino and do it all. You know there is that option.

Ali What can we do to make ourselves more employable?

Gareth OK, so there are some simple things and I'm afraid they're really unglamorous. It's things like having a really good CV, your cv is your calling card to the potential employer and I'm still really surprised when opportunity presents itself and people have to do a bit of a scramble to get their CV together. And you hear the "I haven't quite got the latest credits on it" or "I did that bit of work experience that's not on there." So your CV, you have to maintain it at all times. A lot of organisations, ourselves included, we do quite a lot of outreach and we'll do CV clinics, where you can bring your CV along. And one of my colleagues will sit and look at it and go, "Ok I think you maybe need a little bit more of this or a little bit less of that." I think the other thing is, to make sure that you're treating it as a as a professional activity. Making yourself employable has to be professional in its approach. So turning up on time, making sure you know where the interview is taking place. Allowing yourself extra time, to maybe deal with any sort of late running trains, all those other things. I think doing your research. I keep coming back to research, but in this day and age, it's, you know, it's impossible to avoid the fact that you can find out about the companies, you can find out about the people that you're going to go meet. SO do your homework ahead of time. So a strong CV, that you keep in really good shape. Making sure that you've done as much as you can to research who you're being interviewed by, the company that you're going to see. And then take a really really deep breath before you go in. So many people arrive and they're sort of agitated and anxious and you sort of, your heart goes out to them. You just want them take breath, to relax. I think maybe a little bit of mindfulness before you go in. To just go "Right, I'm here, I've got this. It's alright, back myself." And then off you go into your interview.

Ali Maybe this is terrible advice, but I would suggest that you go apply for some jobs that you don't want. Go in, ruin the interview. Just absolutely totally wet the bed, make a proper hash of it. And it could be just for a local pub and just really just get everyone's names wrong, fall over as you leave. Um, because it's going to happen sometime.

Gareth Have you read my autobiography? I'm sure that was a chapter in there somewhere.

Ali How I didn't make it. No. It's, honestly, you will make mistakes here and there and it's part of a part of life and I've definitely made a few.

Gareth Something you can also do is practise with your friends. I know that sounds like a really silly thing to do, but I'm fairly comfortable meeting new people and talking in front of large groups. But whenever I have to deliver a speech I will always try and find some time to do it in front of a mirror. You know, or to do it into a phone. So some of that pre-prep practice that you can do with friends and family or just on your own, is really quite a good idea. It gives you that sort of soft launch to it.

Ali What experience and skills will get me help in the industry?

Gareth So one thing that's really important and often comes up as a question when I'm interviewing someone is, I will ask, what you seen recently?

Ali Ahah.

Gareth There you are. You're here with a film production company. You're saying you want to make movies for a living. What have you seen recently? So keeping current's quite important. Other things I think, you know, we recognise in this digital age that people do need to have good sort of IT skills. Of course being able to work computers and photocopiers. That's really important. So being knowledgeable of the sector that you're going into, watching the content, you know. And sometimes it's the more obscure content that gets people's interest, really piqued. So when you mentioned we live in... what we do in the shadows. That's something that I love the TV series. I love the feature. I do actually remember seeing the short film. So if you're in for an interview with me, I mean, you would have aced it by now. There was...

Ali Cos we would be talking about it.

Gareth Exactly

Ali Hoovering stuff on the celing and all the rest of it.

Here's the thing I've noticed, is that people like you said earlier, don't know what the company is proudest of. And if you bring that up, it can only help. Like if someone asked me what have you seen recently? "Oh, I've seen this. I've seen that. But I tell you what I loved." I'm not suggesting just sucking up, but just be aware. We've all got egos, we're in the film industry, maybe say that the King's Speech is all right. I mean it might work!

Gareth

I have actually had people in interview misquote the films that I have produced and you sort of go, Okay. That wasn't one of mine, and did a lot better than my one out there. Um so it's just research again, isn't it. Good research.

Shanai Can I just say...

Ali The Queen's speech was great.

Shanai Yeah

Exactly the King's Speech was amazing. Fantastic. But can I just say, I don't think I know how to work a photocopier.

Gareth

Do you not?

Shanai I thought it was just... is it not just a button?

Ali Oh, she says that. Spill coffee on it.

Gareth Right.

Shanai I think what I've got out of this question was I need to learn how to work a photocopier and then I'm going to be the biggest hit.

Gareth Yeah. There is.. things are slightly changing. We are as an industry, becoming more aware of sustainability and so quite often paperwork now, where it used to be a physical script and it used to be call sheets and movement orders, a lot of this happens now in the cloud. So documents are shared in digital form. So whatever the digital equivalent of knowing how to work a photocopier is, that's what you should be trying to skill up on.

Ali And another thing I'd say, and please, correct me. On social media, whatever your last few posts will be, are out there. And if the company that's looking to hire you, is looking to hire you, they will have looked at that. So be careful what you've said and be careful what you've said about what they work in.

It's all too easy to just double check five minutes before someone walks in and they go, "You said the King's Speech was and I quote "Not that good.""

Gareth Yeah.

Thanks, Mum. No she didn't actually say that.

No, no. I mean, it's very important. One of the great benefits of the digital age is that a lot of people that were may be out of reach five, ten years ago and you had to physically write them a letter and hope that letter got passed to them, and they'd read it. You can actually access a lot of people. But I think that comes with a level of respect. I've had situations where people have sort of hit me up on social and they haven't adopted a professional tone. It's like, I'm on social media but that doesn't mean I'm your bezzy mate. You know, so I think being mindful of the fact that you are trying to approach someone about professional... in a professional context, is really really important, you know. And, erm, I'd say a few less emojis and a little bit more about what you want to achieve.

Ali Hiya, job please.

Gareth Yeah. A smiley face, smiley face. Thumbs up.

Ali Thumbs up. Thumbs up. Thumbs up.

Ali What internships can you do before going to university? So I presume this also include work experience and any sort of shadowing?

Gareth A number of the bigger organisations will offer internships. So, work experience or work shadowing. I think you have to be mindful of what you are trying to get out of that particular moment. And so turning up and thinking you're gonna be calling the shots or re-writing the script is probably not going to be what you're gonna get to do that time. Internships are a little bit complex, in as much, as I think as an industry we recognise free labour is something that we're not as actively encouraging. We want to make sure that people get paid for the time they give to production or on a on a project.

I think in terms of how you are approach a company for that internship. Again, using a professional of tone I'd be limited. You know, writing to someone and saying, "Can I come and work shadow you for four months during summer" is a massive ask. But going, you know "Can I come and just work shadow you for two weeks, around this time" and why I'd like to do it, is really important.

I think it's also careful that, you know, really important you're careful about the companies that you're, you're approaching, you know. Have you got...Can you find any testimonials of where they've worked with internships previously, but we also recognising pre-university, the opportunity to work shadow is something we're developing at Screen Skills. We want to try and put it into a more formal structure, rather than it just being ad hoc writing to companies and hoping that they can give you a little bit of work experience.

Shanai 'Cos I think from my experience with work experience, I have had some, like you said some experiences that aren't exactly what you think they are. I think, well, I'm not sure. Correct me if I'm wrong, but on my CV, I think that looks good. Even if I was just making tea and coffee. Even if I was just using the photocopier, that I don't know how to use it. It looks good on my CV and at least you're doing something, at least you're not sitting at home.

Gareth I think those moments where you are demonstrating your passion and ambition to come into the industry is really, is really important. Whether it's through internships, work shadowing, research that you've done and whether you can quote films that you love. What it is, is adding sort of additional texture to why an employer should look at you and think favourably of employing you. So absolutely, it has an important place.

Ali What would you say to somebody who's feeling a little bit anxious or unsure about whether it's worth trying to enter the film industry?

Gareth So the first thing I'd like to encourage is that we are all people. And we all probably started where that person is due, is likely to start themselves. You know, no one parachutes in ahead of studio, or an Oscar winning producer or others. And most people that have come up through the ranks, are really respectful of those that are coming in at those more junior levels, are really pleased to see that the culture of the film industry has been changing, particularly over recent times.

You know. We now take a very stiff line on bullying and harassment in the workplace. I think we've professionalised. We realise that we can't just be the Wild West any, any more. So if someone's feeling anxious or nervous, I think, again, do your research. Try and find out where the, the information is, to make you feel slightly less anxious. But then just remember that we just all people. You know, we're just people doing a job. That job might be quite cool and involve spaceships or gun battles, but you know we're still just, we're folk, you know?!

Ali I'd also like to add from my perspective, I wish back when I was like fifteen, sixteen, your age, I wish I knew, what people Screen Skills and BBC Bitesize are doing, which is kind of highlighting that there are opportunities. It is conceivable. So often I think it's easy to kind of hide under the duvet and go, "Ahhh it's not possible. I never get a chance. Me? Really?" And, honestly I never dreamed of like, working for the BBC, or Radio 1 or even talk to you guys about movies or anything like this. But somehow how it happens. And I think being reminded of the possibility is half the battle. So if you are feeling a little bit undecided. Try it.

Gareth I'm gonna share my story with you. So at the age of fourteen I went to sit down with the careers teacher and even though I had a Saturday job at Pinewood Studios, back then you could actually work at that age. I was emptiying bins, I wasn't qualified to use a photocopier by then. I was emptying bins and sweeping the floor and my careers teacher, at fourteen, looked me dead in the eye and said I wasn't clever enough to make films for a living. She used those exact words. It was the same teacher, that twenty four years later invited me to come back and give the prize winning event at the school with my Oscar. So, sometimes, just temper those that tell you that you can't do it because there are a lot of us out there in the industry that have struggled to get there. It's not easy for anyone. It's, you know, it's a, it's a great life, but it's not easy to gain.

Ali Two things, that must have felt great.

Gareth Yeah. Awesome.

Ali And second thing. It kind of gives you the drive sometimes. Somebody saying you can't do it. Oooh it's a...

Shanai That motivation.

Gareth Lit a fire in me.

Ali Yeah. In the bin, you were cleaning.

Gareth Yes.