ALEX BRODIE Hello, and welcome to the programme.

The Middle East is in turmoil - or, to be more precise, the stunning new ferocity of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict threatens to plunge the region into turmoil.

It is now a moment of truth - particularly for those the Americans call the "moderate Arab leaders", who are heard in the White House, entertained at the Texas ranch even, who aspire to modernise their countries and who have such a fragile balance to hold between their diplomatic place in the wider world and the passions of their people: "the Arab street", as it's known - currently in a state of boiling outrage at the plight of the Palestinians.

The quintessential eggshell-treading such leader is King Abdullah the Second of Jordan - surprisingly handed the succession by his terminally-ill father, King Hussein, three years ago.

It is hard to overestimate the discomfort of the fence on which any Jordanian monarch must sit.

Jordan, which ruled the West Bank until 1967, borders it and borders Israel, with which it has been formally at peace for eight years now, in the mistaken expectation that such a trend would spread.

Most Jordanians - the government says 50 per cent, some say almost two-thirds - are of Palestinian origin.

Another border is with Iraq - and the idea that any renewed war would leave Jordan unscathed is ludicrous.

And, on top of all this, Abdullah, who is just 40 years old, is constantly touted, by those weary of gazing on the grizzled features of Ariel Sharon and Yasser Arafat, as the future: one of a new, younger generation of Middle Eastern leaders of whom much - perhaps too much - is expected.

I met King Abdullah of Jordan as he passed through London on his way to the United States to meet George Bush. And I asked him first: what was the most important thing that he wanted to get across to President Bush?

KING ABDULLAH Well, I think, from the start of the crisis, the united voice from the Middle East and the international community is to get America more engaged. But I think that what we're going to try and do in Washington this time is to get more into the specifics of how to get American involvement to bring the Palestinians and the Israelis to the table.

As you know, there are different camps in Washington, and that has a tremendous impact, unfortunately - negatively, as we've seen - on the process so far.

So basically, I'm there to support our friends, which is the State Department, Colin Powell, and his policy, and get the President to fully support the Secretary of State to move forward.

ALEX BRODIE Different camps - so you see it as a sort of hawks and doves, do you?

KING ABDULLAH I don't know if that's the label for them. But there are those that, from where we live, see a commonsense approach - and that's the State Department - to dealing with the situation.

But sometimes it seems that Colin Powell doesn't get the support that he needs. And I want to encourage that (support), but also, as I said, we have to get into some of the specific details.

The Saudi peace plan, which I think we can come on to in a later question, is a very good start. But we need then to get specifics to be able to push those agendas forward.

BRODIE You are behind the Saudi peace plan a hundred per cent?

KING ABDULLAH All the Arab countries are behind the peace plan. It needs to be developed more strongly.

But I believe that it's a very genuine article, and it took tremendous courage for the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia to bring it forward - fully endorsed by all the Arab countries.

And it's really the first olive branch that has been comprehensively offered to the Israeli people.

ALEX BRODIE But it cannot work unless Washington is engaged. Do you see an American administration as absolutely crucial?

KING ABDULLAH Absolutely. The international community, I think, are all united in solving this problem - but, unless America is with us, it will never happen.

The Arab countries can play a very large role in pushing Arafat in the right direction, and I think that we can have some influence positively in that respect.

And there's no doubt that America has the same ability with the Israelis.

I'd also like to point out that I think that, (in the case of) the Egyptians and the Jordanians, because we have peace with Israel, this allows us a bit more room to manoeuvre than others, because we can talk to the Israelis and we can talk to the Palestinians.

And so there can also be an element where we can find middle ground, more easily than maybe other partners.

ALEX BRODIE You talk of pushing Yasser Arafat in the right direction. What is the right direction?

KING ABDULLAH Well, again, I think, as a series of steps become more defined on what needs to be done on getting the Israelis and the Palestinians together, we need to make sure that both the Israelis and the Palestinians give politically to be able to get there: come on, Mr Arafat, this is what you need to do; and, Mr Sharon, you need to be able to do a), b), c) and d).

To get them to the initial movement in dialogue, there's an Arab momentum to move the olive branch to the Israelis , but at the same time defining what Arafat needs to do.

ALEX BRODIE But, from the Israeli perspective, there is no mystery about this.

The Israelis, under Ariel Sharon, have talked about what the Palestinian side see as the symptom of the problem, not the cause - ie, suicide bombing - the recent attacks which have shaken Israel.

So, are you talking about the same thing? Are you talking about that as being where Arafat needs to move?

KING ABDULLAH Both sides need to move on the cycle of violence. We've got to a point where it's very difficult to see who's more at fault. And I think there's a danger in getting into that.

The Israelis are insisting that this is a problem because of suicide bombings - ie, the Israeli position that they've pushing to the United States is that this is a security issue.

It's never been a security issue. And they'll never have peace if they look at it as a security problem. It's a political one. It's people under occupation for 35 years.

And, unless the Israelis change their policy from security to politics - in other words, a future for the Palestinians - you're always going to have a suicide bomber or extremist.

And this is again part of the struggle we have in the United States to identify to officials there and the public - I don't think the American public are anywhere near as aware of the reality of the situation as are our friends here in Europe - that this is a political problem.

ALEX BRODIE Then there's a tendency to a simplistic approach, especially under the banner of the "war on terrorism", isn't there, in the United States? Arafat equals, if you like, the Taleban; the suicide bombers equal Al-Qaeda; it's simple.

KING ABDULLAH I'd kind of throw it the other way round.

That's the sadness of the situation. Whereas America was an innocent victim on the 11th of September, the Palestinian/Israeli situation is completely different.

The Palestinians are the innocent ones. They're the ones that are under occupation, they're the ones that are not allowed to plan their lives, to have a hold of their future, to live in dignity.

And again some Israelis like to say: "Well, what America is doing in Afghanistan is what the Israelis are doing in the West Bank".

But what America is doing in Afghanistan is liberating the people of Afghanistan from the Taleban - from an occupying power that has really taken them backwards.

In the West Bank, if there's an occupying power that's put a hold on the future of the Palestinians, it's the Israeli armed forces.

ALEX BRODIE The problem is, though, isn't it, that you're not going to be able to get to the cause - you're not going to be able to get to the question of justice for the Palestinians, solving the Palestinian question, until you get over the symptom which is dominating things at the moment.

And the symptom is the violence, and the symptom is the suicide bombing - which has been used, some would argue, by the Palestinians as a very effective weapon of war.

KING ABDULLAH Well, I think the solution is to say quite categorically that we, as the international community and as Arabs, say that suicide bombings must stop - but, at the same time, occupation must stop.

If you don't solve the problem of occupation, you're always going to have terrorism.

ALEX BRODIE I can see the Israelis jumping on that and saying: "You're making an equivalence here which does not exist. You cannot make an equivalence between suicide bombing and the military occupation, for political reasons, of the West Bank."

KING ABDULLAH Well, again, this is, I think, the danger that you can easily get into - these sets of arguments about who did what, and who's more right and who're more wrong.

And again we're back into the security frame of mind.

What we need to do is be able to get out of that into the political frame of mind.

At the end of the day, I put it to you that the majority of Israelis and Palestinians, who have been suffering and have all lost tremendously since the start of the intifada and even more so since the incursions into the West Bank - if you put it to the Israelis or the Palestinians to say: "We, as the political element, we can get you out of this" I think the overwhelming majority of Palestinians and Israelis will say: "Please, for God's sake, put a stop to this.

Enough is enough.". Well, to be able to do that, you need to move the political process forward.

ALEX BRODIE Are you, as an Arab leader, saying that suicide bombing is wrong? Are you publicly condemning it?

KING ABDULLAH Absolutely. Having served my first years in the British Army, I have for obvious reasons an attitude about terrorism from the English point of view that has been ingrained into me.

And terrorism is for me something that I can't stand.

And Jordanians, I think, will all stand with me on that point of view. I am against terror of any form. And I don't think the suicide bombings have been a positive element. But, at the same time, what the Israeli army have been doing to the Palestinians is also unacceptable.

ALEX BRODIE But when is a suicide bombing a suicide bombing?

When is a suicide bombing a soldier being prepared to die in combat?

KING ABDULLAH Well again, this is the grey area in this conflict.

If you keep looking at it from a security point of view, from the Arab point of view and from that of Palestinians, the only way to get back at Israeli might is to hurt them through suicide bombings.

It's been very, very effective. But at the same time, I can't condone it.

ALEX BRODIE Even in the West Bank? Even in occupied territories, where the occupied, under international law, have a right to resist occupation?

KING ABDULLAH Well, this is the problem. We can get into a huge debate about what is terror, what is freedom-fighting and what is resistance.

An individual who takes out civilians - in my personal book, that's terrorism.

There's a different grey area when it comes to the military.

As a soldier who served in the British Army, I figured that, if we were hit, as soldiers that was part of the risk of our employment.

I remember being a junior officer in Saffron Walden, when I was in the British Army, when the bomb went off in Hyde Park that killed the horsemen on their way back to the barracks.

ALEX BRODE An IRA bomb.

KING ABDULLAH An IRA bomb. So I have my own views on that.

ALEX BRODIE Okay, let's get off the symptom and get on to the cause. Do you feel that now is an opportunity?

Each side has shown the other that it is quite capable and quite willing to make life unbearable for the other.

KING ABDULLAH And each side, at the same time, feels that the other side has hurt it.

They've shown a position of strength - but I think they've suddenly realised the vulnerability.

ALEX BRODIE In a way, they've fought themselves to a standstill. At present - touch wood - they've fought themselves to some form of - if not a truce - a pause.

It is now a pause for thought. Is there an opportunity now for the international community to do something about this?

KING ABDULLAH I think there is - simply because I think both of the leaders, in a way, have painted themselves into a corner.

And I think both the peoples are screaming for their leaders to be able to get them out of the crisis.

And this is why there is a flurry of diplomatic activity throughout the Middle East, Europe and the United States.

And we've had in the past year and a half these confidence-building steps: seven-day waiting period, George Tenet, George Mitchell - which are all good in their planning, but really haven't shown us that they're getting us anywhere.

What we have to do is jump straight from the security to the political - in other words, we have to get a framework that there will be a future for the Palestinians - in other words, a state for the Palestinians.

You have in the wings the Arab countries all saying to Israel: "We want you to be part of the neighbourhood -we want to have peace with you." So I think we need to jump straight to the political, final status solution, rather than the confidence-building measures.

ALEX BRODIE That's very interesting. Up until now - certainly since Oslo - the concentration has been on confidence-building measures. It's been on the interim.

The interim hasn't worked. Are you saying we've got to go to the big issues, the hard issues now - the ones that were put on hold: Jerusalem; the Right of Return; the definition of a state; the settlements?

KING ABDULLAH Exactly. I think you have to be able to jump straight into the issues that are closest to people's hearts.

Because, at the end of the day, the problem that we've had, I think, reaching out to both the Palestinian and the Israeli public, is: as politicians we hear 242, 338, George Mitchell, George Tenet - that doesn't make sense to the average Palestinian or average Israeli.

The Israeli, at the end of the day, wants to know: "Can I send my children to the grocery store, to pick up some groceries and come back safely?

I, as a Palestinian - can I get my children to school? Does my wife have to deliver her baby at a road block, because she can't get to a hospital?" It's the human dimension.

So, at the end of the day, Palestinians want to feel that they have a light at the end of the tunnel, that they can decide their future. And Israelis want to be able to know that they can live in safety and security.

ALEX BRODIE We talk about a Palestinian state. Even - and this is a development, is it not? - the United States is talking about a Palestinian state. But where's the crucial qualifying word: "viable?"

KING ABDULLAH Well, again, if you look at all the Arab initiatives and all that we have said - we always say: an independent, viable Palestinian state linked to 242 and 338.

ALEX BRODIE In other words, 1967 borders.

KING ABDULLAH Well, again, '67 can create some obstacles towards the Israelis, because '67 borders can be sensitive to them. So, to keep the door open, we're saying: "242, 338".

ALEX BRODIE Camp David, plus - the Clinton Proposals, in other words. So everybody knows what they're talking about. It is still the two-state solution. It is a viable Palestinian state.

That would require the removal of a great number of Israeli settlements - something that the current Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, has said (he won't agree to)....

KING ABDULLAH What we're talking about is exchange - you swap land. That is what we're talking about, I think. But again those are specifics for the Israelis and Palestinians.

ALEX BRODIE But it would still require the removal of a lot of little settlements. When Ehud Barak was trying to negotiate this with Yasser Arafat, the talk was of moving 40,000 settlers.

Ariel Sharon has said no. Ariel Sharon is, more than any Israeli alive today, I suggest, the architect of the settlement movement.

Can you get this deal through with Ariel Sharon in the Prime Minister's chair in Israel?

KING ABDULLAH I think, if we offer the more important element to the Israeli people, which is peace and security for them, to be included into the neighbourhood - that their borders do not extend to the countries that they have peace with - in other words, that Israel has the ability to be integrated into the neighbourhood, from Morocco to Oman - I think that is the angle that you will have to be able to take.

If you say "settlements" - again, we have to remember the words: "settlements", "settlers" - settling on our people's land.

And I think we have to say to the Israeli people: "This is wrong, but (also), it's the bigger picture. Does an Israeli for the rest of his life want to step out of his house with an Uzi (machine gun) slung over his shoulder?

That's not what he wants for himself or what he wants for his children."

ALEX BRODIE So you're saying that the appeal has got to be to the Israelis to elect out Mr Sharon?

KING ABDULLAH Well, I think what you're doing is reaching out to the Israeli people - all of them, including Ariel Sharon. Ariel Sharon, I think, looking at his history, is always very defiant, very protective over Jewish blood.

And, at the end of the day, the argument is: look, if you have a comprehensive settlement with the Arabs and there is a Palestinian State, that's how you ensure security and prosperity for the Israelis.

So I think, with somebody like the Prime Minister of Israel, you have to convince him that it is in his best interests and that of his people when he has a full and comprehensive peace with his neighbours.

ALEX BRODIE Can you really see 40,000 Israeli settlers being moved?

KING ABDULLAH On the bigger picture, yes. And, again, as I said, part of the settlement issue was exchanging. Some of the settlements may stay in certain areas.

But then land will be swapped in other areas. Those are the technical details. But are you going to let 40,000 people be an obstacle to the future prosperity of the Israelis and the Palestinians?

ALEX BRODIE But those 40,000 people, and many like them, and some people in the current Israeli government, do not believe in the two-state solution. They believe in Eretz Israel.

They believe in Israel from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. And at present Israeli opinion polls suggest that 50 per cent of Israelis, even now, are prepared to resurrect that old saw of "transfer", transferring the Palestinian population across the Jordan to Jordan.

KING ABDULLAH Well, before we get on to the Jordan issue, again you could probably find the same polls in the Arab world - rhetoric of the '60s.

Unfortunately, because of the present crisis, we're hearing the same rhetoric again, on independent Arab satellite stations, of pushing Israel into the sea, of destroying the State of Israel.

Are we going to let that type of dialogue be the one that's going to lead the future for us?

And I think the overwelming majority - and I think we, as moderates, ARE the majority - have to stand up to the extremists on both sides and say: "No, Israel is not going to be pushed into the sea", and "Israelis, I'm sorry, but there is going to be a Palestinian State".

As for the Jordan transfer, this is a red light for Jordan. We've made that very clear to the Israeli government and to the American government.

If there was any hint of transfer of Palestinians into Jordan, we'd stop the transfer immediately. We'd get the army and close the bridges.

And that is the quickest way that Israel - we have peace with Israel - can get into conflict with us.

ALEX BRODIE I presume you don't believe that any serious politician alive in the Middle East today can envisage that happening?

KING ABDULLAH People always want to test the envelope to see.

And again, I think you have to understand that the Palestinians, from their point of view, realise that an exodus out of their last remaining lands would mean that the future of Palestine was gone for ever.

So again, you have to put into the equation the Palestinian thought about this problem.

May I add also: we've been hearing in the international press a lot about "the Jordan option" - in other words, that Jordan should have some sort of responsibility over the West Bank.

In other words, there are articles in the West and in the Middle East that say that the Jordanians know how to deal with the Palestinians - let the Jordanians have a role over the West Bank.

And that, to me, is absolutely ludicrous. All you would do by doing that is exchange an Israeli tank for a Jordanian tank.

The only future for the West Bank and the Palestinians is the Palestinians deciding the future for themselves. We're hearing a lot more of this, and I'm sure I'll hear about this in the States again.

I just want, for the record, to say that that is the most ludicrous idea I've ever heard.

ALEX BRODIE Your father, of course, renounced the claim to the West Bank many years ago. That remains Jordan's position?

KING ABDULLAH Absolutely. Look, the Palestinians have a right to their future. They're the only people that can achieve that.

Our role in Jordan, having very good relations with the Palestinians and the Israelis in that context, is to be able to assist them.

ALEX BRODIE You've had to lay this one to rest, because it's back again. An awful lot is coming back - a lot of the old rhetoric.

Now, you are often talked of as one of the new generation. You're a young man - you're 40 years old.

Do you find yourself hidebound by this old rhetoric, by the rhetoric of the conflict of the last fifty years?

KING ABDULLAH I've been shocked.

I like to listen to some of the independent television stations that are really tabloid television, but it's always refreshing to hear what people have to say.

If people are really listening to these people, then we haven't learned the lessons of the '60s and '70s.

It is the same talk that my father had to listen to: pushing Israel into the sea; Arab armies must rise. Politically is the only way that we as Arabs can deal with Israel.

Whether people like it or, militarily we're not capable - we don't have the strength.

Economically - unfortunately, the Arab countries are weak. It's something we hope to alleviate and change over the next couple of years.

The only way that you're going to solve the problem is politically. Now, with the globalisation of the world, really the country that gets it, and gets it before others, is the country that moves forward.

Now, we in Jordan get the global message.

We're moving on our education; we're moving on our economic reform, judicial reform. And that's the message of the future.

And unfortunately this present crisis is shackling us and making it more difficult to move forward.

ALEX BRODIE As it always has. The position of Jordan in the Middle East is one of intense insecurity and difficulty, is it not?

On your southern border, of course, you have Iraq. You border Israel, you border the West Bank.

You're going to see George Bush. George Bush appears to be preparing to launch a war against Iraq. What will you be saying to him about that?

KING ABDULLAH If there is any sensitivity in Washington to the present crisis between Israelis and the Palestinians, I think that the question of dealing with Iraq is a non-starter, to be quite honest.

There is so much emotion directed to what is happening between the Israelis and the Palestinians that it would be devastating for any action to be taken towards Iraq at this stage.

ALEX BRODIE So your message to George Bush is: he may not know it, but his hands are tied until he sorts out the Israeli/Palestinian conflict?

KING ABDULLAH I think he's very aware of the problems - but again - in translation - that until you solve the problems of the Palestinians and Israelis, it would be ludicrous to consider doing anything towards Iraq.

ALEX BRODIE Why do you think George Bush can do this (ie solve the Palestinian/Israeli conflict), when Bill Clinton couldn't?

KING ABDULLAH We came very close, at the end of the Clinton administration, to achieving a peace.

And I think that we'd have to take one step back - which I hope will allow us to take several steps forward.

I think that the American Administration has the ability to do it. And unfortunately, I think that, with the start of the intifada, you need tremendous conflict, loss of life and desperation - as I said before - for both the Palestinians and the Israeli public to say: "My God, this is the time to move forward."

And I think, as you alluded to, we're back in that situation.

And I think there's an opportunity for the American Administration to be able to push it through.

ALEX BRODIE But your people - "the Arab street", as it is called - in general, I suggest, perceives George Bush as being purely a supporter of Ariel Sharon.

You don't think that's the case?

KING ABDULLAH This is the sad part about it. If Osama bin Laden is alive, he's probably stuck at the bottom of some cave somewhere.

He probably hasn't seen the sun for several weeks - he's probably on a diet of water and gruel. But I bet you, if he's alive now, he would have a grin from cheek-to-cheek and he'd be laughing.

But what he basically can tell the Arab people now is: "I was right" - that the reason why America's so bad is that it's always one-sided. And that's not the truth.

But unfortunately I think that the lack of ability of the Americans to control the Israeli armed forces in the past several weeks has, in a way, let the extremists win the day.

And, in the context of the overall struggle of combating terrorism, we've been set back a couple of stages.

ALEX BRODIE And then?

KING ABDULLAH Now that there is a movement forward, there is a chance for the overall campaign of extremism around the Middle East and the rest of the world to move forward again.

ALEX BRODIE But, in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, there now has to be - what? There has to be a period of calm? What has to happen now?

KING ABDULLAH I believe that, if we can set up the mechanism as quickly as possible, we need to go straight into final status negotiations.

You need to put the prize not as a light at the end of the tunnel, but right in front of both sides.

ALEX BRODIE Forget confidence-building measures, forget interim settlements?

KING ABDULLAH Well, concurrently you're going to get that. But the argument is - if you don't move quickly, you're always going to get extremism.

Somebody, on the Israeli side or the Arab side, is going to create a terrorist or terror situation.

ALEX BRODIE Well, the veto is with the extremists. It always has been, hasn't it?

KING ABDULLAH Exactly. We'e shown, over the past couple, that it doesn't work.

So get the prizes in front of both players. And let's talk about the end game: a Palestinian state; Israeli's security and acceptance by the Arab world.

I know that the President understands that we need to move on this and that he is the only one who can pull it off. But again it needs a lot of homework.

And the homework can be done by the friends of the United States, either in the Arab world or those in Israel.

ALEX BRODIE Thank you very much indeed.

KING ABDULLAH Thank you.

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