Listen to Nigel (Need help?)I've been living in Grange Farm for the best part of five years. It was a bit of an old person's house and we felt we needed to put our stamp on it. With it being a listed building, the process involved with CADW and local government takes time.
We've had a radical view of the layout of the house. When we moved in, we dug out the whole of the downstairs.
We stopped at a foot because that was the last floor we found which we assume was the medieval floor - definitely the medieval floor level. There wasn't a lot of the floor left, but the bits that we found, I've put back in one room downstairs.
When we first moved in, we did a lot of research through the National Library and Glamorgan Archives. With it being so old, it's very difficult to get any concrete evidence of what was actually here when it was built.
We do know that the land the farm was built on was seeded from Llandaff in 1215. During the course of the renovation, we found ridge tiles dating from the early to mid thirteenth century. This ties in neatly with what we know about the land going from Llandaff to Margam Abbey. One assumes that the building, or at least parts of the building, are from that early thirteenth century.
It remained in monastic hands until the dissolution of the monasteries, and then it was leased out in 1535. It would appear that at that time there was major work done on the house. There were the fires put in, and there's a late medieval, early Tudor four centred arch doorway. Some of the beams might date from that time, but it's difficult to tell.
Playing with something that is so old poses completely different problems to something that is Georgian or Victorian.
Aesthetically it's problematic because it comes from a world that you can't understand. There are holes in the wall that you can't fathom. There are wooden structures that you just don't know where they came from. You get windows and door openings that fall between floor levels.
You can't know how old the bits of the house are as well. Maps only appear around the eighteenth century. Previous to that you don't know what was here. There are leases from the dissolution of the monastery, but you don't know that the leases pertain absolutely to the house we're living in.
Why it's still here is amazing. At one point it was meant to be a house for the clergy of the Catholic Church but it never got used for that. At that point, the leases disappear.
One of the reasons that I think it's here is because nothing much happened in Cardiff until the nineteenth century. It's amazing that it wasn't knocked down when Grangetown was built, but I think it's because of the Catholic leanings of the Plymouth Estate.
your comments
Ken Payne, Ystradowen
To Gregory in Vancouver - yes we do remember you and your sisters being brought up in south Clive Street. We were all brought up in the same house. There were parents, children and grandchildren all living in a three bed semi. We had nothing, expected nothing and wanted nothing we were happy in our own environment. The joy of having a large family and lots of friends on your doorstep is something that is lacking in today's society. They were wonderful days to look back on and remember.
Lynda M Williams Cardiff
My mum used to do the milk round from the Grange Farm when she was but a youngster. She would be really pleased to see the property being preserved. We also remember the Cazanaves the Milk deliveries with Dolly. She used to leave me a sweetie with the milk and sometimes if I was lucky a ride on the back of the cart to the corner of our street. Such wonderful memories
Lyndall Davey from Winchelsea, E.Sussex
Hi mr Sutton! When you did your researches on the house, did you discover whether the house was owned by the Morgan family in the late 18th century? There is a reference in my great grandfather's writings to "The Grange" and he may be associated with the Morgan family who purchesed Llantarnam Abbey at about this time(16th Century) and used it as a catholic retreat. That Morgan is said to be "of the Grange of Cefn Vynoch" could this be anything to do with your grange?
Gregory, Vancouver, Canada
I lucked out ... whilst doing a search of addresses on Clive Street I found a website with an address in South Clive Street and called the number listed.
The lovely and kind gentleman I spoke to went out and crossed the street and took some pictures of the house I was born in. I was born in the top window with the white brick. I sure don't remember it being that horrid red colour though!
Graham Williams of Canton.
As a genealogist, I did some Research for a Canadian gentleman who was the great-great-grandson of the Morgan who had Grange Farm in the 1841+ censuses. I met up with the then owner of Peter Farr who explained why the windows were raised in the house. This was done when the Great Flood of 1607 occured. This "tsunami" caused the whole of southern Cardiff to be swamped with several feet of water (as depicted in Dennis Morgan's latest book on Cardiff). It seems that the floors in the house were raised afterwards, in case of future flooding problems, and the doors in the house became windows!
Gregory, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
I grew up at 81 South Clive Street in Grangetown. My nanna Peggy Payne lived there and it was where my mum Hazel lived as a girl. My dad was in the Royal Engineers and we travelled lots when I was a kid. If anyone could take a photo of the home (if it's still there) I'd be forever grateful. Is there anyone out there that remembers Linda, Janice and Karen?
You can send any photos to wales.southeast@bbc.co.uk
Rob Stradling, ex-Taff Embkt
Nigel Sutton's fascinating and informative article is much appreciated. Let's hope it has some influence on current planning decisions. His last line is curious. I don't know of any 'Catholic leanings' in the Plymouth (as opposed to the Bute) Estate, but on the other hand there were certainly 'Anglo-Catholic' leanings, and a general interest in things medieval amongst the landed aristocracy in the mid- to- late Victorian period. So Nigel may well be essentially correct.
Marion Richards
It was lovely spending more time on this site and reading other people's memories of the farm. I kept hoping when it was up for sale that I would win the lottery or the pools and go back to my roots but that wasn't to be. My son regrets that he hadn't listened to me and let me ask Doris if I could bring him to look inside it. It would be all so different now. I can remember lots of brasses and tiny little windows with seats just narrow ones of course. I loved Doris she was a lovely lady. A pity I hadn't taped my mother's memories of it but we all have regrets. I offer my best wishes to Nigel living there now. My mother died from her house in Devon Street she would have been two weeks of 91, that was ten years ago.
Mrs Jill Williams (nee King) from Grangetown
It's great to see so many people now paying an intrest to Grange Farm. I only wish all the work that has been done could have been done when my Burford Farm and to me it still is. Even though the Burfords didn't really live there until 1869 when Samuel Burford married Ann Morgan, it was her family home.They had lots of children, one of them being Henry Thomas Burford - my great great grandfather. He married in 1901 and had five children. My grandfather Arthur Ronald, the eldest, was born in the farm January 1903, Amelia 1907, Frank, Lillian. Doris was born in 1909. When my mother was born in 1925 she was also named Doris and was very close to her name sake. Her brother Harry was also born in the farm. He was always there even after he married, and he was the one that gave the farm its brilliant whitewash if and when it needed it. I don't know what they would say about it being sold but it's nice to see the farm now having some tender loving care.
My grandfather ran the coal round with his brother Frank, and I remember my mother telling me that many a time she had to stay up to make sure the horses never laid down as they had their manes and tails plaited ready for a show. I can remember me and my brother riding the horses down Penarth Road to the fields so they could have a run, but I would. I always went on the white one - he was very gentle. I could go on forever with memories. That is something that can't be taken away - only the one's that remember know the stories.
Chris Lacey, Rhondda
Having built the two new extensions on Grange Farm and working side by side with Nigel it was interesting to hear some of the history that came along with the farm. And it's great to read this letter from Ray Noyes - yet another story that comes along with the history of Grange Farm. I wish Nigel and family all the best for the future.
Ray Noyes in San Francisco, USA
I used to live in Penhevad Street. The Burfords had the Grange then and delivered not only milk, but also coal. Both by horse and cart. In the summer, when coal wasn't needed, the same horse would pull an ice cream wagon.
The horse used to graze in the 'fair field' as it was known. This was the very first field on the left, in the direction of Penarth, beyond Grangetown Station. It was often used for visiting fairs.
Of an evening, in the summer, when the days were long, we used to ask if we could accompany Mr Burford with the horse and take it to the field. He used to remove the extensive leather traces and chains on the horse when in the yard, exposing a rather naked-looking horse who was clearly glad that the day's work was over. The horse was then led with just a rope looped around its head to graze.
I can still hear the plod of its large hooves and the clank of these chains as the horse moved around the yard. I can also remember that Mr Burford seemed rather terse and always seemed to be coughing. The dust from the coal saw to that!
The ice cream cart was interesting because it had a very large brass bell pivoted on a bar across the top of it. It was loud and made a noise you couldn't miss! The ice cream was in two deep tubs, one either side of the cart, with a gap in the centre, all within a beautifully varnished wooden body. The driver used to stand between two tubs and drive the horse from there.
The Grange Farm as we used to call it, was thatched when I remember it - a very odd thing to see in built-up Clive Street! We boys used to tell the girls that a witch lived there! It was always brilliantly white-washed. It was so sad to see the state it was in when last I visited the area a few years ago.
The garden should yield interesting archeological information because it was there that the stabling, coal store and dairy sheds were situated.
