your comments
Jeff, England
When most people think of Arthur they think of romanticism and chivalry, but I think someone needs to mention the most likely truth. Did Arthur exist? Probably, as most legends are based on a corruption of fact. Was Arthur a great King of the whole British isles with a great court (Camelot) and knights? NO. It is entirely reasonable to infer that he was basically a male Boudica and has been overglorified by centuries of idealism, Welsh and then English. The Welsh desire a great historic leader who victoriously combated the English and well the English think everything British is English. What is really laughable is that people become so caught up in the legend and forget the most likely truths. As for where he was really from, who cares? If there was such a mythical person as Arthur there would be more traces. We can even find evidence of Neolithic hunter gatherers but not of a unified person that is Arthur. What is the logical conclusion? Well how many Arthurs do you know? How many uses has the term Arthur had? Anyway if there was I bet he was good at throwing spears and stones and didn't give two monkeys about chivalry!!
Greg O'Leary, Dublin, Ireland
To claim, as has been done above, that the term 'Celt' did not exist until Victorian times is incorrect. 'Keltoi' was the name given to a bronze age trading culture of central Europe, a culture that would develop into the iron age 'Hallstatt' society, before spreading to Britain and Ireland as the more war-like 'La Tene' culture.
Arthurian legend is resoundingly Celtic. Morgan le Fay is representative of the Morrigan, an equally ambivalent war goddess who appears in both Irish and Welsh legend. Merlin, as has been said, is possibly druidic. He, like characters in the Irish heroic cycle and the Welsh Mabinogion exhibits, also, otherworldly, semi-divine characteristics: he can prophesise and shape-shift.
Also, elements of Celtic belief appear in the patriarchal hegemony of Arthur's indefatigably masculine society. Sir Gawaine, in order to prove his worth, chases a White Hart - or stag - from the wedding feast of Arthur. The stag was a fertility god of the Celts, the antlers representing, specifically, the erect phallus. Gawaine inadvertently kills a woman, and is taken back to Camelot to account for himself, but not before he has been presented with the trophy of his efforts; the severed stag's head.
Thus, Gawaine's ultimate subjugation of the feminine is glorified by a Celtic token of sexual vigour - an uneasy alliance of misogyny and the pre-Christian worship of anthropomorphic deities.
Max Mayer Perth Western Australia
I grew up in the UK with legends of Arthur & Robin Hood, If Arthur was King of England why is it not written in the long line of Heraldry? One should be able to track the royal blood line (the BBC can do it to a royal line living down under!!!
P. Morgan. lodge Hill, Caerleon. NP18 3DN
considering the Druidic movement has its roots in Wales, its likely Merlin (white beard, flowing gown etc) was Welsh. Many places lay claim to Arthur, and it is an issue that will probably never be resolved! my Grandfather was born in Caerleon, as was my Mother as was I. There is a strong tradition/local knowledge in the village (shown through art and story telling mostly) that Caerleon is the home of Merlin and if Arthur was born somewhere else at least he would of visited at some point!! the old castle keep is now joined on to the Hanbury pub by the bridge and the amphitheatre is a great source of local pride ... come to Caerleon!!
mad gran from cardiff
where is queen guinevere
John Laprise Ph.D., Ontario, Canada
My ancestry consists of Irish, Scottish,
Welsh and Norman ancestry. My Grandfather
Arthur Houle who was of Welsh/Breton ancestry insisted that there was a King Arthur who did great things in history. Their oral tradition maintained, that there was always a boy named Arthur in every generation for his commemoration. We know that Magus Maximus existed and that his son Arthur was the eldest. I was however surprised, that there had been two Arthurs in early British history. I would challenge the pseudo-researchers found in our colleges and universities, who would criticize the thirty years of scholarly research of Alan Wilson and Baram Blackett, to learn the written Coelbren language of the Khumry first, then confirm the research and documentation brought forward. Oh yes I forgot, Coelbren was determined to be a forged language of the early 1800's by these pseudo-academics. That must be why the Etruscan and even the so-called Copper Scrolls of the famed Dead Sea Scrolls read perfectly in the ancient Coelbren of the Khumry. The Copper Scroll was supposedly written in an unknown language according to the academe/know it alls. I guess in time history will have to be rewritten, and all these tomes of gobbledeegook written over the centuries by the farmers of government grants will have to be discarded.
Steven Chenoweth
I believe their was a King Arthur,my family tree book says their is family ties,just about all of them have the name Arthur,my grand father had Arthur in his name also,this just seems odd,I know my family fought the saxons,what the family ties are I don't know.Thank you
Glen Batchelor, Loegr
Kathleen Thompson is clueless. The Romans left in 406, possibly 50-100 years before Arthur. Go back and check your history books.
Richard in Bridgend
In the hollywood blockbuster film Arthur, Merlyn was portrayed as being of Welsh Blood, and if you happen to visit Caeleon,On the out skirts of Newport there is a sign that says..This is the reputed birth place of Merlyn"
Sabia: Pen Y Bont
I love the work Wilson and Black have done on the legends of Arthur. I think that a full documentary film addressing the issues would be a fine feather for the authors and would certainly I believe bring attention to the fact that these historical sites are in danger of disappearing due to industry etc.
Chris
All my family know where Arthur 2 was buried, and that's enough for us. Long live oral history
Gwyn Howells
I think some of the commentators especially the non-celtic ones should learn a bit more about the history of Britain. Some don't even seem to know the English were invaders and probably genocidal as well. Others seem to assume that Cornwall was always English- they should ask some Cornish about that. Let's not credit the English with anything to do with Arthur; he tried to stop them destroying old, christianized Romano-Celtic Britain. The Welsh language was profoundly affected by co-existing with Latin in this Island whereas English brought from Germany retained its teutonic structure and vocabulary until the Normans frenchified it quite a lot.
Arthur -Arth Aur -the Golden Bear- was, as some commentators rightly say, probably a romanised Briton (Brython) familiar with Roman military traditions. But what is important is that he is a hero of the Welsh-Cornish British and should not be spoken of as part of English culture. The worst and most cowardly theft is that of a people's culture.
Anonymous
I always thought that King Arthur was a Cornish king, based in Tintagel in North Cornwall. In my conclusions, King Arthur was Cornish who was first documented by the Welsh - which could explain the long-time confusion on the origin of King Arthur.
Martin Gillard from Bagillt (originally Cwmbran)
I have recently read an excellent book called "Pendragon, the origins of Arthur" which puts Arthur in North Wales and not even a King. He was a Penlleu to Maelgwm Gwynnedd, King of Gwynedd. The book is essential reading.
e.g. among the legends is an account of one of Arthur's warriors who, froma Arthurs court "Gelliwig" (Celliwig) could, shoot a wren with his arrow from a mountain ridge in Ireland. Nonsense of course, until you realise that a place called Gelliwig still exists on the Lleyn peninsula and on a clear day, you can see the Wicklow mountains in Ireland.
The link to Cornwall is spurious to say the least and based on a misunderstanding of the word "Kernow" which is considered to be an old name for Cornwall but is in fact merely a description of a peninsula. Look at the map and you will see the Lleyn Peninsula has a similar shape to Cornwall, add to that the information above and you have something that at least deserves to be looked at!
Christopher Williams from Newport
Has anybody got a copy of Chris Barber and David Pykitts new book The Legacy of King Arthur. I wounder if their claims are true about the Williams of Aberpergwm being desended from the great king. I know that we are blood relatives to the Williams - Ap - Aberpergwm family. I wounder if there are anymore of us out there. Besides the one that is mentioned in Thursday night Argus a certain Robert Morgan Williams
Jason Cardiff
In reply to Carl from Cardiff actually the term 'Celtic' was first recorded as coined by the ancient greeks 2,500 yrs ago to descibe a 'loose band' of nomadic peoples with no singular identity.
This is in the BBC history magazine which I have right with me now.
Since the celts or at least the inhabitants of Wales are recorded in Britain earlier than the anglo saxons I think Arthur is more closely tied with Wales.
Obviously he could have established bases in England as well. Even if he is linked with England he could easily still be a celt as we know they inhabited England at the time of the Romans.
Unfortunately England assumes everything British and good and brave is English hence the little known fact that eg. modern latin in Britain owes its origins to Wales as it was kept going in the dark ages here (as according to AD Britain - historical documentary amongst other sources). So lets make some more sense of the origins of this story here before making solid claims.
Albert from Oldham
King Arthur is also associated with the Holy Grail taken to the Strata Florida Abbey south of Aberystwyth and later to Nanteos, a mansion a few miles further north.
Steffan in Cardiff
There has been a huge amount of nonsense written about the 'real King Arthur' over the past tweny years or so and I'm afraid some of it is repeated here. There is no proof that there ever was a 'real' King Arthur, let alone any evidence that he was located in Wales. Far too much credence has been given to over-enthusiastic amateurs like Wilson and Blackett who refuse to question their sources and misunderstand the little evidence that is available.
Having said that, Wales has as much of a claim to Arthurian legend, folklore and tradition as any of the other of the places which claim him as their own (more so in many cases) and we should not be shy in publicising that. Apart from promoting our own culture to the larger world, it would surely boost the tourism economy no end.
Undisclosed from Denmark
It seems very important to the Welsh to keep Arthur as one of their own, even if he didn't really exist. I don't want to start claiming I know whether he existed or not. Most likely there was one, possibly several Arthurs (or similar names), somewhere in time who did great deeds. The deeds have been blown out of proportion, and the magic and romance was probably added to glorify the story. So who's to say a King Arthur didn't exist? The trick is separating fact from fiction.
Paul Stephens, Llantwit Major.
All very interesting and ...
1. In "Journey to Avalon", Richard Barber + AN Other have Arthur associated with Llantwit Major and suggest that he was St Illtud's cousin.
2. Barber is a respected authority on British myths & legends, and this book deserves to be read and taken seriously.
3. They suggest Arthur was mortally wounded in battle in the Lleyn peninsula, that Bardsey is the "Avalon" to which he was taken, and that he was buried in Britanny. It is all quite plausable, if not proven.
4. Possibly important is that Illtud was himself a fighting man - converted to the church after an encounter with St Cadoc at Llancarfan near Llantwit.
5. Llantwit Major was certainly the place to be in the later fifth/early sixth century - St Illtud's establishment trained many clerics and had links with Cornwall & Brittany (St Sampson of Dol trained here, as did many other saints of the Celtic church).
6. The present church isn't quite old enough to have been Illtyd's as the oldest part goes back only to the Normans -and much of it is virtually new - a mere 500 years old. Well worth a visit though, as are several of the other churches in the Vale of Glamorgan.
7. Llantwit Major church does, though, have a fascinating history, a number of early Celtic artifacts (including the famous Celtic cross), and some later murals - one, to King James 1st, although recent (1604) is very a interesting read.
8. From this weekend this historic town can be reached by rail - and is well worth a visit.
Dave, Wisconsin, USA
After reading Holy Kingdom, there are several things that I do agree with and some that I do not.
I don't believe that any one man united the whole of Britain until much later, King Alfred & beyond.
I believe the Britannia refered to is the later refered to Britannia Prima, aka Wales.
I also believe that Arth(ur)sus may be buried on the Isle of Anglesey. Avalon may be a corrupted version of Albion. So an insula of Albion could well be Angelsey.
I believe he may have ruled and defended Caer Leon from Caer Melyn especially if the armies of the period were much smaller than during the Roman times.
Grant Berkley, Llanharan
Arthur 2nd, son of Meurig son of Tewdrig, Prince of the Silures, King of Glamorgan and Gwent as attested in numerous ancient British manuscripts of repute. The Bruts of England state that Arthur was "crownede kyng of Glamorgan". There is no doubt. Alan Wilson and Baram Blackett's new 500+ page book entitled The King Arthur Conspiracy (April 05) tells how the historical establishment and powerful interests in South Wales have tried to stop the truth coming out.
Remember, Wilson and Blackett's 1st Century ruins at St. Peter's Super-Montem above Llanharan was the focal point for the Original Christianity which Arthur and his line fought for... Arthur 2nd sailed to the Americas circa AD 562 and the book covers that in massive detail.
J.J. Appleby (Wales)
I agree with my namesake I have met Alan Wilson and have read all his books. When are people going to wake up and take notice of this mans 30 years of research? Arthurs battles at Longborth and Camlan are sites in south wales and are still called by those names today.
A new book by Alan and his co author Blacket is due out in March. comments would be appreciated.
Jill Appleby Newport Gwent
After reading the book (The Holy Kingdom)by Adrian Gilbert,I am convinced that the many years of research by Alan Wilson and Baram Blacket, have proved without a shadow of doubt that King Arthur is from South Wales. ,Names, places, dates and Geneology all tie in. Thanks to these marvelous dedicated people we can see for ourselves the facts and cast out the myths. I am looking forward to the new publication (The King Arthur Conspiracy)by Alan Wilson.
Christopher Williams from Newport South Wales Via
I thought Guinevere was the daughter of Newport's very own Saint Woolas and I also think that the term Arthur was a title rather than a name. Might there have been more than one Arthur or in Welsh Athrwys?
Vaughan Thomas in Usk, Gwent
There seems to be a misunderstanding on the authority of the Romans in SE Wales. One of your contributers states that when the Romans said jump the locals asked "how high". In fact, a visitor to the excellent museum in Caerleon will learn that although the Romans invaded with force they ruled with a surprising degree of consensus. They normally intergrated with the locals and cooperated in government and the economy to produce a more orderly and prosperous way of life. The idea that an invading force could run any country by coersion for four hundred years is self evidently wrong - just look at what is happening today. The Romans brought order and prosperity through good governance and when they left it was the locals who fell to anarchy and violence amongst themselves.
David Leyshon Ponty
I think Arthwr came from the Pontypridd area. Infact the local mountain the Garth in Welsh Yr Arth ( The bear ) could well be his resting place there is a large burial site on top which would tie in with his era. c450-550. Bearing in mind the Roman legions were actually expelled from Britain by the High Council in 410AD!
Carl, Cardiff
Celts was actually a term the Victorians came up with. A Celtic race did not exist as such till they classed numerous races with it. Thought you may like to know. Check your history, it's on the BBC website as well.
Eirwen Goodman nee Morgan
I know that Merlin and King Arthur came from Wales and so did Morgan le Fay. It's obvious you - just go to Wales and feel the place. Just ask any high priestess.
Nick, of Caerleon, now NJ, USA
I don't think we will ever really know what or who he was, but to know that the town that I grew up in (and still regard as home) is the possible mythical site of one of the the most fasinating tales ever told. To think that I went to school and lived on the supposed site of Camelot is mindblowing to me, but most of all makes me proud to be Welsh.
Clayton in Loughborough
I remain to be corrected, but is it not true that in this period in history neither England nor the English language existed as such? True, neither did Wales as a nation, but the point is that the native people of the time were Celts who spoke Brythonic, which is old Welsh, and thus the ancestors of modern Welsh people (although I take the point of the considerable influence the Romans had on the Celtic people). What is unacceptable is that there should be any claims of an English link, merely because ancient sites of Arthurian interest happen to be in what is now England (but was not back then).
Robert White from Western Australia
The Arthurian stories that most people are familiar with today stem mainly from the time of Geoffrey of Monmouth, and were partly used by the conquering Norman French to establish a strong connection to the lands that they had stolen. A form of early propaganda, using the codes of chivalry and knighthood (unknown in the 5th century, and a fantasy of Queen Eleanor the wife of Henry II).
Although some of the stories were based on historical truths, most were a weaving of Greek, Roman and Celtic myths. Stories at that time had the same impact as TV and news papers today.
Growing up in South Wales myself and having an avid interest in the myths and legends of my area, I have had over 40 years of reading on these subjects and I still love to read people's views on this subject. The ways that place names hold clues and the ways that the old stories have evolved always fascinate me. If it is of any interest I have listed the following items that in my opinion need further research in order to come close to the historical Arthur.
1. Firstly Kathleen Thompson's comments do not seem to appreciate the fact that, true, the Romans were the masters, but they had mainly vacated Briton by Arthur's supposed time. This was the reason that the Saxon's thought it convenient to test the waters on invasion.
2. Britons at this time had 4 centuries of occupation and were in all but birth, Roman, both culturally and militarily. The opposing Druidic culture still had a minor influence but were basically eradicated or politically impotent. The Romans earlier in their conquest had practised a form of genocide on them, but the remnants went underground, and their oral traditions were kept alive and surfaced in the form of stories.(eg Merlin or Myrddyn)
3. Because the Latin Roman conscripts were recalled to defend their homeland does not mean that the British contingent were helpless. They were well trained in the Roman ways, although probably not too numerous. They even offered to help the Romans on the continent. One of these Leaders left to look after the country may well have been Uther Pendragon (Pen = Head, dragon being a corruption of dragoon) the father of Arthur.
4. The buildings and other infrastructure that had been built by the Romans must have been utilised by the Roman/British in their battles against the Saxons. On one visit to Caerleon, the fortress of the legions, I pondered over the amphitheatre and tried to imagine a local warlord addressing his troops from its centre. Could this be the origin of the round table myth?
Unfortunately for us not nearly enough was written in this time (or was destroyed later), hence the dark ages. History is written by the victors, there is no mention of Arthur in the Anglo Saxon Chronicles neither is their much about Saxon defeats in the chronicles either, yet we know that there was a period of about 50 years of relative peace at this time. How so?
For those who want to learn more I suggest looking up The Ancient History Sourcebook on the net, it is full of original documents and other info relating to this period.
Chris. Gd Rapids, Michigan/ex Bridgend
For over half a century I have loved the various versions of the Arthurian Legend and I do think he existed. Story-telling was passed through the generations as a means of teaching the illiterate their history. Tribes who still use this method of teaching, seem to pass on accurate information.
Part of the legend is that Arthur will return when Britain's need is great - it seems to me he needs to return now as the whole world's need is great.
Kathleen Thompson from Tucson, Arizona
Arthur never existed and other men were leaders at that time. Rome dominated the areas then anyway, so anything anyone English or Welsh was under the control of Roman leaders. Romans told them to jump and they asked "how high", so how can you say Arthur was a hero? It was Rome that didn't want the Saxons or other groups to take over.
Llewellyn from Brecon
No-one said that such tales didn't exist, and no-one is bursting anyone else's fantasy. What is more likely is that, like much Celtic history, few facts were scripted by the Celts themselves (Wales, Ireland, Scotland). Most were documented by Romans and a few Britons at the time, as poorly resourced view of the facts. These documents were then interpreted in the most part, by post-Celtic England years later into 'English literature', by the then English governing Kings of Britain. Only hard facts, documents, and science will truly tell, but that's no reason for anyone's fantasy to burst, and the legends live on...
Stephen--Iowa, USA
I am enthralled with English literature and to just think that folk tales really didn't exist would burst my fantasy of a wonderful period of time.
Eric Reed aka "Emrys" Oklahoma City, USA
From my early days of childhood the stories of Aruthr have held some special meaning for me. The books of Mary Stewart and Marion Zimmer Bradley make me homesick for a place that I, in this life, have never been. Lives can wax and wane but legends never die.
Pam, ex-pat Carmarthen
Much has been written that states Arthur was a title not a personal name, and that should be considered when there are several claims made to Arthur's place of birth. One claim comes from Northern Europe which is not even a Celtic country. However, the person referred to as Arthur in the legends is undisputably Welsh. Ambrosius Aurelinaus is thought to be the father of Merlin, so that's an additional link to Wales.
CarlinJ83
Arthur was born in Wales. I should know because I'm Welsh and Arthur, Guinevere, Merlin, Mordred and Morgan are all Welsh names.
Rob from Bilthoven, Netherlands
Considering historical documents like that of Gildas and the assumption that there was peace in Britain after the battle of Badon for half a century, it is most likely that Arthur, if he existed, was a Romanized Briton. To keep the peace for such a long time suggest a well organized army, like the Romans had. Arthur may have come from Brittany or South England.
Loughorboy in Cardiff
King Arthur - Athrwys ap Meurig ap Tewdrig. King of Glamorgan & Gwent and paramount King of the Britons. Defended Christian Britain/Wales against the pagan Anglo-Saxon invasion in the Dark Ages (Welsh Age of Saints). Court based upon Lodge Hill, Caerleon, and possibly Caer Melyn (Camelot), Cardiff.
Celtic warrior
