The giving of names is endemic in every part of the world. Some names are recognised instantly. Others may stir up deep hatred and mistrust. But you cannot ignore a name. It identifies in a unique way everything required to separate one person from another. The surname or 'front' name is a medieval invention and owes its origin to the wearing of a surcoat, upon which a badge or coat of arms would be displayed. This idea was extended to include occupations. So we collected the Bakers, Tailors, Gardeners, Fords and Carpenters.
In other circumstances this becomes more difficult. In Wales many people were forced to carry identical names by English census. Dafydd ap Richard (kin of Richard) became Pritchard. Ap Rhys was changed to Price. Following on from this we can derive the Williams, Davies and Jones which came from Ion or Yon. There is no J in Welsh. The pattern then began of adding a disinquishing feature to a persons first name. So we collect 'Jones the bread' or 'Gwilym Start Up' who ran the local garage.
The world of mining took this practice to its most perfect form and in a unique way has added beauty to indecent toil. It deserves more study. The necessity is always to identify a particular person, and if, at the same time, a pertinent opinion can be expressed, so much the better. I am reminded of the apocryphal - Jones the Spy. These types of names are spawned by location (Bill Porthmadog) habit (Glyn Whitescarf), idiosyncrasy (Will Junkers) or family (Dai Feather Boa).
In order to earn more, working syndicates were formed and the money shared. It was important to know from which family a boy came.
"Who's the new boy then?"
"It is Sally Jones' lad."
"Who is that then?"
"You know. The one with the feather boa in the pub."
The boy would be called Feather Boa for the rest of his life. The same thing happened when a young man introduced himself as Jack Wooden Leg, when he clearly enjoyed two good legs. The name had been passed down for generations after his grandfather had a leg amputated following a pit accident. There are other fascinating examples of this genre: Bill Sophie, Jack Lucy, Joe Mary Ann, Bob Shave (his father was the barber), Will Mochyn (his father kept a pig).
The son of a publican would invariably also carry the name of the pub.
But a few are more subtle. Dai Six Months lost an ear in a roof fall. So half an ear became Six Months. Another miner said he would not mind a reasonable nickname. Next morning he was introduced as Morgan Reasonable.
My book Clatter of Clogs has many more hilarious examples and can be bought from Wrexham Library.
But pity the poor girl who was forced to carry the name of Snot. Write to us if you have a solution.
your comments
Julie, Wrexham
Melvin. I think you and my dad are cousins! My dad is Eleanor's eldest son Terry (and I think I vaguely remember you from when we lived in Warsop!). Am interested in tracing our family tree, can you let me know how to get in touch with you please?
Mon Apr 20 10:35:05 2009
Gail Williams, London
My dad worked for 52 years as a miner. He was born in Tan-y-Fron and I think he started at Gate Wen colliery. He ended up working at Gresford. His name was John Williams but was always known as Jack. I remember men calling him Jack Brenin. When I asked him why people called him that, he would laugh and say he didn't know. Brenin, I know means king and I would like to think he got that nickname because he was a really nice and generous man.
Wed Feb 4 10:41:34 2009
Michael Ball from Toronto, Ontario
Looking for information on family of Josiah Richards Ball (1836 - 1908) who died in Minera and is buried there. He was manager of the Minera Mining Co. and lived in "Minera House". Looking for death and burial dates, grave marker picture, or others looking for this family.
Mon Dec 22 09:18:23 2008
Linda Mackenzie from California
Wytal, Wital, Wittle are all the variations of my ancestor and no one knows what his real first name is. But of course he is a Jones!
Wed Oct 1 08:15:34 2008
Webster Nee Charles, Wrexham
My father was born in Ponkey [Ponciau] in 1912. He was the son of the late John Charles South Lane. He once told me a story about a fellow called Robert Jones AKA Bob Big Nose. One day a stranger to the village was looking for Bob to deliver a message, he asked one of the locals if he knew where Robert Jones lived. He was told there were several men with that title and asked if he had any further info to direct him to the right person. After a lenghty conversation the local worked out who he was looking for. He said "you mean Bob Big Nose" and kindly gave him directions. The visitors walked down Bob's path, knocked his door, and when Bob open the door the vistor asked "are you Bob Big Nose?" to which Bob replied "well, if I'm Bob Big Nose what does that make you, Billy big ears? Now bu**er off down the path before I stick my boot up your backside". CLASSIC.
Wed Oct 1 08:14:41 2008
Robert Jones
My family lived in Savage Street, Rhos, and their nickname was dumpling, my father's name was Cyril and his brother was Bill. They got their nickname because one of the Joneses wives was good at making dumplings.
Thu Aug 7 17:24:04 2008
Patrick Keefe, Ruthin
My great-great grandfather, Cornelius Keefe/Kiefe, started working in Bersham in 1884 having come from Co Cork. He ran the Bird in Hand, Moss, with his wife Elizabeth Williams, daughter of Samuel who ran the Rock Tavern in Moss. Does anyone know whether records of employees of the mine are available? Samuel also worked in the mine, along with Ted (David Edward) Simon(s) (later from Brynteg) and his father John, Joseph Matthias, Thomas H Lloyd (whose son, Joseph Albert Lloyd, used to run a farm in Brymbo) and finally William Parry, whose daughter (my Nana), Harriet, married my grandad (George Redvers Simons)... do any of these people ring any bells with anyone?
Wed Jul 30 12:09:57 2008
John Jones, New Zealand
My Taid built a shed and bragged of its sturdy construction, he was known as Ned Kit. My dad worked down Bersham Colliery from when he was 14 till they closed the pit. Every day he had an orange in his snappin so he became known as Bob Orange. His friend's mother took in washing he was known as Ned Socks. Another bloke he knew was the first in his street to get fitted carpet. He became known as Les Carpet. I had a teacher in Grove Park Grammar School whose name was William Williams he was known as Bill Twice. But perhaps the most unfortunate was a great uncle on my Nain's side. He was walking home from Bersham Colliery when he was caught short. He jumped over a wall into Erddig Estate where he was confronted by a game keeper brandishing a shot gun. What are you doing demanded the game keeper? Cachu Sir exclaimed the fightened collier. To this day his descendants are still known as the Cachusus. Also John Penmawr, Tommy Burmah and John the Pole.
Tue Jul 29 09:45:31 2008
Mark
My grandad was called "CRIM" and from what I gather he was late for work in Chirk, so he BORROWED, LOL, a bike out of someone's garden. When he returned it the next day he was arrested, and charged so the Cefn lot give him the nickname Crim. Anyone know if this is true or what is?
Thu Jun 19 08:02:12 2008
Ray Williams, Caergwrle
My father was Len Williams of Brymbo. He worked at Gresford Colliery. His father, William Williams, was known as Bill Boxer. Not that he was a boxer, but he had a donkey of that name. Hence my father was known as Len Boxer, but thankfully I did not inherit the nickname.
Tue Apr 22 07:26:47 2008
Evelyn from Llwyneinion
My husband's Taid who lived next door was John Edwards also known locally as John Bodo. His father was William Edwards, Wil Bodo. Apparently Wil Bodo had a sister, a very kind person who had no children of her own so she would look after other people's children in Rhos helping parents out in the days when families were large and help was welcomed. Locally, Aunties were called Dodo but out of children's mouths it became as 'Bodo'. Just this month a lady from Cardiff told me one anecdote about the late Meredith Edwards (the actor) my husband's uncle and John Edwards' son. Apparently Meredith was asked to give a talk in Rhos. The man who was introducing him to the audience couldn't remember his name so Meredith shouted out 'Bodo' which made everyone laugh.
Thu Apr 10 08:22:14 2008
Melvin Salisbury
My grandad was known as Ned the Graig which I'm led to believe means the rock. I would like to know why he was given the nickname. I was told it's because he lived in a cottage under a cliff, one of a row. I also wonder what nickname I would have ended up with if we had stayed put in the Cefn.
Tue Apr 1 09:34:46 2008
Malcolm Smith, Monmouth
My family lived (still do) in the Rhos. My grandfather was Abel 'Casnach' (fluff, I think, as he was forever brushing fluff, or dandruff!, off the shoulders of his suit! Can anyone confirm this translation? I can't find an online dictionary with it in). He was friends with two mentioned here, Bob 'Shave' and Bob 'y Gas'. He worked in Hafod Colliery until its closure.
Mon Mar 10 09:20:58 2008
Wil, Wrexham.
SANDRA HAYNES, SOMERSET. The only "Bob-y-Lwmp" relative I'm aware of in Rhos area had a substantial haulage firm carrying quarry tiles, years ago, from the very recently closed Dennis, Ruabon, Hafod Tilery. He lived in Ponciau, then Pentre (Newbridge) and, last I heard, prior to his passing, on "ALLT-TY-GWYN, Rhos. Maybe his surviving daughter will find your message and help your quest.
Mon Mar 10 08:57:07 2008
Sandra Haynes, Somerset
I grew up in Rhosllanerchrugog and moved away 30 years ago. We are researching our family tree and remember being told I was part of the Bob y lwmp family. One of my ancestors was very sensitive and whenever he heard sad news used to say it brings a lump to my throat (in Welsh). Has anybody else heard of this family nickname?
Thu Mar 6 08:29:58 2008
Helen Goodier from Bolton
I am researching my family history and have found that my great grandfather who lived in Broughton in 1901 (from the census records) was a Waggoner in a coal mine but his father in law was a Bryman in a coal mine. Can anyone help with what a Bryman was?
Fri Feb 29 07:43:02 2008
Yvonne, Rhos
My father worked in Hafod then Bersham. He was a fitter and was known as Norman Sharkey. I cannot see where the name came from but I am sure someone knows. He was well known for playing the piano in different pubs and clubs. We lived in Penycae and he was well known in The Black Horse. Lots of the nicknames here I know as I heard my dad talk about his friends. He passed away 5 yrs ago now. He is still with us in soul.
Mon Nov 12 08:55:01 2007
Steve Howells. Bersham Colliery
After starting in Bersham in 1978 as an apprentice, my grandfather, who worked in Bersham for 43 years, was known as "Jim the b*****d" purely because he was a fair but firm man. Once when asked if a collier could go "up the pit early due to an injury to his foot" he was told "unless you have blood coming out of your laceholes, you can't go", he was a strong and fair man.
Mon Nov 5 12:41:43 2007
Trevor Jones - ex Cefn Mawr
I remember my dad (Clifton Jones) always used to bore us with stories of nicknames (and any subject come to that!). One similar to the Jones Pure and Simple. The story was about a miner from "outside the area" who when he arrived immediately announced that his name was John and he was not going to have one of the ridiculous local nick-ames that he'd heard everyone in the Rhos area was so fond of. He became Johnny No-Name... are these stories true?
Fri Jul 27 08:20:22 2007
Jan Lloyd, Gresford
Message to Michael Evans Jones and Martin Evans. Although I see Michael regularly, I suppose I would only get to see Martin at funerals and there won't be many more of them now. By the way, I am Michael's auntie, Martin's cousin, and 'Vic the Mounts' daughter. Nice to see the family names.
Mon Jul 2 09:06:52 2007
Rudes
I am researching my family history and my maiden name is Rudes. Any help you can give me in this I would appreciate it. Don't even know how to start. My Father, now deceased, always said we were of Celtic ancestry, mostly Welsh. I want very much to know all the history. The name Rudes is found in many parts of Europe, and the East coast of the United States. Thanks. Jennifer Rudes/Cox
Fri Jun 29 15:31:32 2007
CHARLISH from Coventry
Believed to be a Flemish name, but found gravestones in Norfolk.
Thu Jun 14 12:38:16 2007
Bryn Williams, Denbigh
A long-dead cousin of my late mother, on moving to Rhos, said, in Welsh, that no-one would ever find him a nickname because he was "as quiet as a lamb" (mor ddistaw ag oen). From that moment on, he was known as Edwards yr oen! Wonderful!
Mon Jun 11 09:10:01 2007
Eirlys Cooper (nee Evans) Penycae
My father's nickname was Bob Sach - he was secretary of the Rhos Male Voice Choir around the 1930-40s and secretary of the Labour Party in Penycae. His mother insisted that the nickname 'Sach' ("sack") had been given because the family had a bit of money stashed away 'in the sack'. But I believe that it was because he always wore a sack underground at Llay Main. My grandfather was called 'Merican Ned' - on return from America in late 1880s, he was the first in the area to wear denim dungarees - there's grand for you! I also remember Will Llew Chwith (left-handed) named so because he was..... yes, left-handed. Could anybody confirm that an ex-American G.I. who married a girl from Rhos was amazed at the nick-names given, and always insisted that "you won't catch me" naturally the G.I. was henceforth known as 'You Can't Catch Me'... I would love this to be true.
Mon Jun 4 08:29:39 2007
Martin Evans, Holland
To Michael Evans Jones: nice to read your message. My father, your granddad's brother was nicknamed Les Mount, he also told us many stories about Hafod. Please give our regards to your granddad.
Tue May 22 13:31:10 2007
Janet Lewis, Wrexham
I remember my late father (whose father was a miner in Brynamman, Carmarthenshire) telling me of the time Dai Jones came to live in the village. It seems he expressed the hope that if he were to be given a nickname that it would be something substantial. Guess what he was known as!
Thu May 10 14:22:19 2007
Ray Clarke from Rhos
I was a product of the Bodos and the Bragwrs. I hated the name Bragwr when I was a kid as I thought that my ancestors bragged a lot! (I don't know what the heck they would have had to brag about - probably as poor as church mice)However my street cred grew in my teens when I found out that Bragwr is the Welsh for Brewer! My great grandfather Wil Bragwr plied that trade. Anyone know where the nick name "Bodo" originated?
Thu May 10 08:43:24 2007
Ann, Canada
A message for David Griffiths. Are you related to or know of Robert Griffiths who lived in Minera or Rhos around 1842? He was reported deceased on his daughter's, Hannah Griffiths, marriage certificate in 1864, All Souls Church, Liverpool. Hannah was born in Minera or Rhos in 1842. She married a Samuel Hayes, who was born and baptized in 1843, in Thornton le Moors, Cheshire. I am seeking more information on Hannah's mother's maiden name and her siblings. Any information you have would be much appreciated. Thank you, Ann.
Tue May 8 10:13:30 2007
Michael Evans Jones, Penycae
My grandad tells me the stories about the nicknames and Hafod a lot. He was known as Vic the Mount, because is family cam from the Mount.
Thu Apr 19 08:47:15 2007
Lisa Evans from Hope
My maternal family are from Rhos, the nicknames I have heard form stories of the past never fail to amuse me. For example Bob Knockerup (the village alarm clock, he would rap on miners windows to get them up for their shifts). My great granfather was called Soeg, this was because his father used to collect the remenants of the hops used by the local breweries and take them to farmers to feed their pigs - soeg means brewers grains.
Mon Mar 19 08:32:47 2007
Clive Adams, Holywell
My father was one of the 'Bevin Boys' who worked at Llay Main during WW2 and was always telling us stories about his workmates; names like Percy Penycae, Percy Pigeon, Jack Mary Ann and Dai Rhondda come to mind. He's 90 now, but sadly has Alzheimer's so doesn't remember any of it anymore.
Mon Mar 12 09:51:14 2007
David Griffiths, Chesterfield
My late Uncle Bob Griffiths from Glanrafon, Rhos, was known as 'Bob Gas' due to a gas leak the family had in their house. Needless to say, the name was passed on in the family.
Fri Feb 23 10:05:51 2007
Peter Humphreys, Gwersyllt
In my village we had a lot of Jones so they became Boxer, Chippy and one poor chap was named after his granddad's lisp Baw (because he could not say ball). Two other people were named for reasons too rude to report here.
Thu Oct 26 09:42:20 2006
Robert Frost
Reading your story about Jones Wooden Leg reminds me that my father, Sidney Frost, told me about Jones Pure and Simple. Mr Jones had by that time become a most eminent member of the then Denbigh Mental hospital management Committee of which my father was the group Secretary. Mr Jones I think came from Bala or Corwen. When the young Jones was called up at the beginning of the Great War he was asked what was he "known as" as obviously Jones was insuffecient in itself. "My name is Jones, pure and simple" he replied - and that is what he was known as for the rest of his life.
Fri Oct 13 08:37:10 2006
Norman, Northumberland
Re. nicknames in mining. Nothing to do with Wales but an apprentice joiner at a colliery in Northumberland was sent to instal a seat in the nettie (ty bach) at a collery house. For the rest of his life he was known as 'Squarehole' I don't think I need to explain why.
Fri Oct 13 08:29:41 2006
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