St John's, Rhosymedre, has embarked upon a time of change. Our rather faded, but still grandiose, early Victorian building is just not who we are any more. At this time St John's needs the experience, wisdom and guidance of all who are friends to this place and who believe that it has a future as a place of worship and of service to the communities around it.
I, as the one charged with leadership in this parish, believe that change is essential and desirable for our Church building but that we must get it right. Architect's drawings have been prepared to help us in envisaging a reordered St John's and it is hoped that they will prompt further discussion. Would you be willing to give them some minutes of your attention and help us to get change right for St John's?
In this year when St John's celebrates its 170th anniversary, we have an opportunity to secure St John's as a place of worship for future generations. Change is inevitable given the altered circumstances in which the Church in Wales finds itself in 2007. Neglecting the issue for much longer I fear will mean the only solution remaining to us will be to get rid of our building altogether. Holding onto ownership of our building as a worship-only venue is ultimately impractical, while ensuring the sustainability of St John's means getting other people in.
The plans are currently:
- The removal of pews, choir stalls, organ and pulpit.
- The organ is presently placed in a position which blocks what was the main entrance to St John's. The removal of the organ will allow the reuse of that entrance. This entrance will now include an entrance foyer which will lead into a space for a children's church. The children presently meet in a separate building. The children's area will be screened off from the main worship area by a glass screen.
- If you imagine St John's in the shape of a cross, the area I've just been talking about is the left arm of the cross. The foot of the cross is that part of the church building called the nave. This area will also be screened off form the main worship area but will remain accessible for occasional use for large weddings and funerals. The initial suggestion for this space is as a community cinema and juice bar, but this remains open for discussion. The proposal is that the nave area will also have an upper floor so as to utilise the upper space and to use that first floor for commerically rented office space.
- The body or upper torso of the cross will be the main Sunday worship area with the altar or table moved forward from its present position at the head of the cross. It is also proposed that the head of the cross should include a space for quiet reflection.
- The right arm of the cross, the present Lady Chapel, would now become a kitchen with a meeting room above it.
- Two toilets are proposed downstairs and also in the new upstairs.
These plans are not set in stone. Please have a look and bring your considered reflections to the table as to how a reordered St John's might look and how better use might be made of our Church building to the benefit of our community.
your comments
Heather, now in Canada
My dad was the vicar in that church for a few years and I grew up singing in the choir and we had concerts where students needed to perform to gain their qualifications and we had an opera singer who performed before she went to the Royal Academy. The acoustics are amazing and the tiles are rare and it's a Grade 2 listed building. How are you getting these plans passed? Living in British Columbia (the province is currently having its 150th birthday) has helped me realise how precious these things are. Will you be losing these things through "renovation" / gutting the Church? I know I don't live there any more and that I'm not an architect, but finding a business to support the church by using the qualities it already has seems like the best approach. Once the gutting has taken place and the organ/pews/pulpit have been sold to reclamation it's too late to change your mind. Please don't let this be like the 70s housing solution in which the concept seemed like such a good idea at the time and then only a few years down the line get ripped down because they were an eyesore. "Modernisation" isn't always what it promises to be. Personally, I think the Sunday school kids liked being able to run around in the Church Hall instead of having to to spend the whole service trying to be quiet. I don't think they will enjoy it as much and don't get to know each other as well. Please bear in mind that there are also several more modern worship buildings in the area and it's not working for them then it may just be that the Christian population of that erea isn't what it was in Victorian times when it was built and a population larger due to work in the area. Please try to use the acoustics, there must be bands/musicians in the area that would appreciate the space. Try Yale College performing arts, try anywhere. Please exhaust these options first.
Fri Nov 21 10:11:09 2008
Claire, Rhosymedre
I think the plans for the regeneration of St John's are dreadful. They seem very commercial based, and as though it's developing into a money making scheme. It's understandable that the church needs some kind of income, but surely there are better ways. Who'd really find it necessary that on the way from visiting a loved one's resting place, they may encounter rowdy teens leaving a juice bar/cinema or office workers moaning about a hard day's work? Wouldn't it be more in everyone's best interests to provide small fee based learning/interest classes and some kind of meeting groups for the elderly and children of the area, who really don't have much else on offer?
Tue Jun 17 08:29:59 2008
Kath Roux/Jones
I am dismayed that the Church is now being changed to appease the whims of the "bored". How boring can the Bible be? Turning water into wine, healing the lame, feeding thousands with loaves and fish, how uninteresting could these stories be? How about a quiz night on the 10 Commandments? Winner to receive congratulations for having read the good book.
Mon Apr 21 08:42:05 2008
Steph Jones - Rhosymedre
I am horrified to think that anyone would want to start ripping bits out of such a beautiful old church! Please leave St John's church the way it is. To do otherwise would be to ruin the quiet and peaceful atmosphere of the place and turn it into a modern disaster! I was shocked to learn that the church hall has been offered for lease. At present it is used for funeral wakes, slimming classes and such like...where will these be held now? Please Rev. Coleman, this church is our heritage, don't spoil it by ripping out the very heart of the church. You were not born and bred around here and so your feelings will not run as deep as ours, please respect the wishes of the local people and leave this sacred building alone.
Tue Feb 26 09:47:55 2008
Sheila Thomas [Lockley]
I have lived in Cefn mawr for 60 years. Married with 2 children and 4 grand children. I think Cefn Mawr is a lovely place to live in.
Mon Nov 12 09:33:22 2007
Chris M
To Graham, Johnstown, the church centre provides toilets and a kitchen etc, why on earth would anyone want or need that in a church that was built for the worship of God? The church centre should be used and money put to alter that to suit the parish needs, the church is a sacred building and should remain as it is.
Fri Oct 5 08:14:33 2007
Howard Jones, Johnstown
My family and I have enjoyed worshipping at St Johns church and previously at St Pauls for generations. However it has been evident for sometime now that change is needed to inject new life into the church. Young families like mine desire a different style of venue and structure to our worship, and the proposed alterations would in my opinion deliver these surroundings. I fully appreciate the concerns of the loyal congregation that are apprehensive about changing the way they have worshipped for years; but to keep the church going I feel this transition is necessary.
Mon Sep 24 08:59:46 2007
Graham, Johnstown
Family members have been christened, married and buried at St Johns (and before that St Pauls) for literally generations. We have enjoyed social activities in the Church Centre and the legendary Church camps to Barmouth as youngsters; sadly however for several years now St Johns Church in both building and body has been in decline – it needs new blood and new ideas. And with three young children I think these plans are simply excellent – why would anybody not want a designated room for children, indoor toilets, income generating office facilities / meeting rooms and kitchen facilities? Hopefully the plans will go ahead quickly and provide up to date facilities for old and new worshippers alike. Good luck!
Thu Sep 13 15:14:13 2007
Gillian Hughes (Rhosymedre)
I do not like the idea of the proposed modernisation of St John's Church. Surely removing the choir stalls, the pulpit, the pews and the organ would be taking out the very heart and the character of the church ?! What will happen about future wedding bookings? I doubt whether anyone would want to marry in 'half a church'! I agree that the use of the church has greatly decreased over the years, but I personally feel that even if all the so called 'improvements' are made young people will still not be attracted to the church...if there were playstations and PCs installed then maybe you'd be in with a chance! I think St John's Church should be left as it is. To tear out all of the items mentioned would completely ruin it. There is too much destruction going on in the Wrexham area in the name of so called 'progress', many old buildings have been demolished to build faceless housing estates, fields have been stolen from the wildlife and I am tired of reading about new developments sprouting up here and there. The proposed plans for St John's church are to me a kind of destruction...an interior destruction. Surely the installation of a cinema, juice bar, kitchen and offices would take away the religious and peaceful atmosphere of the church? What about the cost of this modernisation? The church is struggling to fund the grass cutting of the churchyard so how can this idea even be considered? I am sure the architect's drawings have already cost the church a small fortune! If you want a cafe, cinema etc why not make use of the old school room? How about holding meetings and discussion groups at the church? This would not require any alteration to the building. Rev. Coleman, please reconsider your plans before ripping the heart out of our church. There has to be another way to keep this building going.
Thu Sep 13 12:46:51 2007
Chris, Acrefair
It is a sign of the times and a very sad time in the history of Rhosymedre Church. My grandparents were married there in the late 1800s, I was a member of the church from aged 5 until I became catholic in the 1990s. I have very fond memories of vicar John Davies now your bishop and about 30 or so of us going camping for the week in Dyffryn Ardudwy.
Wed Sep 12 08:06:27 2007
Gill, Staffordshire
This is a very beautiful, extremely well loved and cared for Parish Church. Many of the features under threat were provided by public subscription, and all this now seems futile and completely unnecessary in an area already well served by establishments such as the Ebenezer Centre & Cafe, and the Acrefair drop-in Centre. This whole project would carry exorbitant costings...is this with the blessing of the parishioners? Modernisation isn't about being radical, more about benefiting the community. I hope the Rev Coleman will appreciate the feelings and views of the community who will continue to reside in Rhosymedre long after he has moved on...I certainly do.
Mon Aug 20 11:34:24 2007
Trevor Jones, Australia
I have read the details of the proposed changes to the church and surrounding grounds and I truly admire all the people who are contemplating giving the church a new lease of life. I used to live at 7 Church Terrace some 67 years ago and remember the curate of the church giving us an occasional half day holiday, and I remember when I was 20 years ago being a member of the military funeral that was held at the church for an ex Welsh guardsman whose name I have forgotten but he used to live in Chapel Street and is buried in the churchyard. Mr Jack Hughes who lived at 6 Church Terrace and was the graveyard attendant in those days would be very proud of the effort being taken, being an old Rhosymedreite I thank everybody involved.
Mon Aug 13 10:31:24 2007
Terry Sharpe
To put the size of the grounds into perspective the site on which the church is situated covers over 3.5 acres. Believe me, take it from one who knows, to keep it neat and tidy is not only a mammoth task it is also extremely expensive. I for one am prepared to give up a couple of hours a week and volunteer to help out. It's a daunting task but as someone who has lived in Rhosymedre for over 37 years out of 48 I feel it is small price to pay...and it gets you fit! As for the proposed changes, well people don't like change but they usually get used to it in the end.
Fri Jul 27 12:52:13 2007
Yvonne Pryce
Please can anyone help? We need to form a volunteer team to keep Rhosymedre Churchyard looking neat and tidy. Anyone out there feels that they can help and has willing friends or family? Then we can form a working pary with a rota that suits everybody. Equipment will be provided. Thank you.
Thu Jul 26 08:34:56 2007
Stephen from Chirk
I've seen the proposed plans for the modernisation of the church and think it's necessary as people expect such facilities as toilets, heating and a little more comfort than a traditional church now offers. Before moving to Chirk I regularly attended St Johns, so know the building well and feel that this would be good for the church.
Mon Jul 2 08:13:31 2007
Wil, Wrexham.
I recently visited the church where I was christened and attended as a child. It had suffered, and I mean suffered, what is proposed for St John's in para. 1 of the above plan. Its very heart and soul, and mine, have been wrenched out, but then, I'm a pensioner so I see things differently from the youngsters. I remember places of worship being used at least four days/evenings every week, plus two Sunday services and Sunday school. Perhaps a visit to one or two of the several abandoned and emptied churches or chapels in our locality would help in the decision-making. Visits to the Salvation Army church in Cefn and St Paul's(?) Acrefair about two years ago were hurtful, but at least the Salvation Army building has now been put to good use. What has been done to the large chapel opposite the George Edwards' hall? I seem to recall it being altered to serve a similar purpose to the one proposed for the church. I may be wrong but if not why not ask questions there to help with making decisions in respect of St John's?
Mon Jul 2 08:12:54 2007
Vicky, Trevor
I think the plans for the church are a good step forward, it's nice to see something new that will be of benefit for all of the community. The plans are just what's needed to bring the church up to date. What better timing with this being the 170th anniversary.
Wed Jun 27 10:23:20 2007
James from Acrefair
I agree with Katie. The plans to upgrade the church are a good thing for local community and the congregation who attend church. The church is about to celebrate its 170th anniversary and it would be nice to think we could be here in 30 years' time to celebrate its 200th anniversary. Maybe it's an age thing but people of my age do not always see change as scary or bad.
Tue Jun 26 08:33:15 2007
Katy Abram from Marford
I regularly attend this church and I believe that these plans are a superb idea. As a child I would think that these ideas will help bring younger people to the church, because they wouldn't think it was a boring dull place but a lively modern place to hang out and worship God. I have been christened and I am going to be comfirmed very soon and this church has a really nice atmosphere to it already, so if it closes down it would rip the community apart and also we would miss out on each other's company. So I think these plans are very necessary, and I hope they go through.
Sat Jun 23 12:33:01 2007
Emily Abram
All these plans are going to make the church such a great place. I'm looking forward to it because when I grow older I would like to use the church for my children which I know seems ages away but it'll go quickly! And I would hope to use the bar regularly and it's a good way of making money and modernising the church.
Wed Jun 20 08:00:21 2007
Peter Lawrence, Colwyn Bay
I've read the proposals with some dismay. I guess these are the times in which we live, and goodness knows how many places of worship we know have been converted into houses, warehouses, play centres and other businesses. Although I live in Colwyn Bay now, I was baptised in St John's, spent many Sunday afternoons in Sunday School and even sung in the choir for a while. Family members have been Christened, married and buried there. It just seems a strange irony that those couples not electing for the non traditional weddings eg in licensed hotels and other commercial sites, could end up getting married in a traditional church sponsored by private companies carrying on their business on the floor above. I know this all a bit negative, and I really don't have any answers at this point, but I thought I would share my feelings anyway. Peter
Tue Jun 19 14:59:04 2007
