Gaelic
Posted: Thursday, 15 March 2007 |
Comments
i know how you feel. i was considered to,stupid to learn a foreign language at school,and when i moved here it was pure hell.,but there again i was a foreigner,i think it crazy that people hassle you to learn the gaelic
carol from france
The exclusivity of a dying language is a contrary but real phenomenon. Native Gaelic speakers should be inclusive if they want the language to live on, but, possibly because of the wicked and dreadful way they or thier parents had it beaten/smacked/ridiculed out of them, they carry a burden of resentment against those who would like to learn. Couldn't you find a friendly native speaker who would let you in gently? A Utopian Dream.....
Flying Cat from a linguistic coil
I actually agree with you completely, i am also an incomer but unfortunately just an english or even whitesailer as i have been rudely called to my face. I have made an effort in my own way to get my tongue round the gaelic with books and a tape so i can hear how it should sound, but just as with french it's hard to get used to using words the wrong way round to describe things and different words to adress older folks, male, female etc. I can say hello how are you and thanks and other stuff but feel paranoid about attempting to use this with the locals as they dislike me enough for the sin of being born in england, i don't think they'd like me any better for failing to attemp their language, although it would be nice to know what they are saying about me when i'm on the bus LOL They might be speaking another language but i'm not stupid enough to not know when someones talking about me! Having said this though....where i came from there were more asians than english who chose not to speak english....just imagine how racist i would be accused of being if i demanded to know of them when they were going to learn to speak english as thats where they were chosing to live now!!
tanith from point, lewis
Oxford Univ. puts out some tapes and a booklet on Gaelic for those thinking of teaching border collies how to round up sheep (kidding folks: no need to put a bounty on my head). Perhaps what the folks at OUP thinks of as Gaelic is not what is spoken on your patch of peat?! How is an American to know, eh?!!
mjc from NM,USA
I do find it perverse if it is as bad as you report. I have had the good fortune to amble through life picking up enough phrases to hail and farewell, and buy the occasional beer in number of languages and have never met with anything but courtesy when trying my limited vocabulary. I admit that my half forgatten scoolboy french prompted gentle remarks about my "Parisian accent ." from my French boss in Vanuatu; but it was done in a friendly fashion. I certainly did not experience hostility in Wales with my dozen or so words; indeed I was encouraged. Perhaps fc is right too many years of being put down have bred resentment.
Hyper-Borean from Polyglottal stop
Life is hard enough without some folks making it harder. Speaking Gaelic should be a pleasure (I hope) and a privilege (perhaps), but it should not be a necessity (though you might get better service, or a choice cut of meat if you spoke the lingo?). Native Gaelic speakers should be pleased and encouraging when an incomer tries, and doubtless some are welcoming souls. Just ignore the louts.
mjc from NM,USA
The ability to learn new languages becomes harder with age and it is a shame that such pressure is put upon you. This is a problem that goes right through the education system. Language is dependent on the production of sounds, called phonemes. When we are born we have the ability to make most sounds or phonemes but we lose this ability when we do not use it. A linguist hearing a one year old child making sound can tell you what language the child's parents speak because of the phonemes that the child uses. By the time we reach the age of 9 we have lost the ability to make sound which we do not normally use. This is the reason learning a new language is so hard as we get older. Although hard it is not impossible but it does not help if people are unsupportive. An example of the loss of phoneme production that we can relate to is that of the sound "r" in Manderin; there is no "r" sound in manderine and that is why manderin speakers tend to subsitute the sound "l".
Tony from London
hb: what on earth were you doing in Vanuatu?? we could maybe swap souvenirs
carol from france
The answer in in this week's Gazette - 'a massive injection of Gaelic education'. All you have to do is bare your arm and hey presto. Injection 1 are nouns Week 2 Injections are verbs and there are boosters for psalms and folk songs. Isn't medicine brilliant? So learn gaelic courtesy of the Health Board - they aren't so useless now Arnish are they?
calumedication from Fank HQ
I suspect he was there during his idealist phase. Or was he merely fascinated with tales of head hunting, cannibalism, head shrinking. And he also wanted to be in the vicinity of Bali-hai (or whatever - the influence of South Pacific musical). Anyway, Carol, I hope souvenirs is all you plan to swap, or I may have to request IBHQ to do some more strenuous filtering. Blogging is getting to be risque (add accent) in this neighborhood.
mjc from NM,USA
I'd like to volunteer for the Spanish injection course please....will it be available at the Fank and is there a proscription charge? As long as it's just your arm you have to bear.....
Flying Cat from sobre un diccionario de espagñol
mjc;dear mjc bali-hi never existed, the island in question is called MOOREA which is a ten minute flight from tahiti be reassured i only want to swap souvenirs remember i'm living like a nun or at least for the time being!
carol from france
'course I knew Bali-hi was an invention, Carol. Mon Dieu, je ne suis pas si stupide!! Gimme a break, old gal!! # Are you going to NZ via the States? If you do and would like to stop in Albuquerque coming or returning, just say so (wife and I will provide you with room, board and a welcome) and I'll ask Ann whether it would be alright for her to transmit my email address to you, or what would be acceptable to the Beeb.
mjc from NM,USA
Living like a nun eh? Are we to take that as gospel...
Flying Cat from a high bookshelf
I think it is kind of a backhanded compliment that they want you to learn the language,as once you can speak it they'll not be able to speak about you in garlic while you're in the room. Which is, I think, something they rather enjoy doing!!! Tanith: I do agree with your comment about racism. There's a lot of folk who think racism only applies to people of a different colour and that it is perfectly acceptable to hate the English/sooth moothers/Welsh/etc. How's that for opening a can of worms!!!
damadcoo from unst
Hyper-B: "I certainly did not experience hostility in Wales with my dozen or so words; indeed I was encouraged". Weeeel. Maybe the Welsh have a sense of humor? Or they were too busy worrying about how their leeks were growing to notice. # My frustration with language learning was in the Netherlands (the Dutch of course speak several languages almost as a matter of course, including very good English [unlike the French, no offense meant to your country of adoption, Carol]). The locals, either because of the pain inflicted by my utterances in what I took to be Dutch was getting unbearable, would rapidly switch to English whenever I tried to speak Dutch. A general experience among foreign residents intent on learning the language. Unlike their Belgian Flemish counterparts, the Dutch had difficulty grasping that someone might really like to learn their language. It is a nice language, by the way, particularly when spoken with a southern/Vlaams - softer - accent.
mjc from NM
Various answers and ripostes. 1/ I was in the New Hebrides/ Vanuatu for 5 years (minus 6 months home leave) over the period from just before independence through independence and the so called coconut war until 1984. 2/ It wasn't my idealist phase, although there was a degree of romanticism involved, I was actually fairly well paid as an air traffic controller. 3/ Bali-Hai. The original story on which the musical South Pacific was based was Tales of the South Pacific by James Michener. Set mostly in Noumea, New Caledonia; and Espiritu Santo it , the book, drew on other South Pacific islands and cultures. Bali-Hai was a myth somewhat akin to Shangri-La but Michener used it to illustrate the loneliness of the GIs in Santo. The island now called Ambae lies 30 or so miles off Santo and can only be seen occasionally, when the normally hazy atmosphere clears; at which time it seems to rise out of the sea. During the war the small convent school on Santo was evacuated to Ambae to preserve the modesty of the girl students. Ergo; Island of vigins which appears and disappears and," What ain't we got? You know darn well!". There is a resort in French Polybesia which uses the name Bali-Hai but it is a product of our world of easy long distance travel and appetite for the exotic. 4/ Souvenirs, I take it we are speaking french here; as in memories rather than the english shade of meaning. 5/ Idealism; I like to think I am as idealist now as I was in my youth. The trouble is I would also like to think I am as mischievous. I do enjoy a good wind up; either giving or recieving mjc. So Carol, do you have any connections with Vanuatu?I suppose NZ and French connections suggest some South Pacific.
Hyper-Borean from A position of pedantry
Calum., Arnish: of course the Health Board is not useless. I hear a combo vaccine is in the works: same as for Gaelic, but the combo now also includes Celtic and, for those in search of razia stemming roots, Norwegian/ Danish. In the morning you visit the vet for the quadruped to get its combo shot, and after lunch a visit to the local quack's surgery for the language combo. You pay for the first one, but the govt. forks out for the second (we hope: an educated citizenry is a good thing, or so I have been told).
mjc from NM,USA
Oh my God...you brought back some memories there ! I began my career there as a student in 1987 before going to Inverness. I had been told about how welcoming and friendly they were...aye... only if you're a tourist and they were taking your money off you !!!! That "Holier than thou" crowd tsk, tsk... They are not so perfect themselves...for instance...a member of the clergy got caught selling whiskey out of the back of his car.. on a Sunday, no less ! On a Sunday..you used to walk by the houses...all the curtains were closed, because they didn't want to get caught watching TV..not allowed by the "Wee Frees". Oh yes, those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.....don't let them get to you...learn your gaelic when YOU are good and ready...not because some nosey bunch of busybodies, with nothing better to do than interfere in other peoples lives.Don't stand there and listen to them, just politely say you are "in the middle of something" or "on your way out the door for an appointment", and put the phone down. It'll wear off eventually, they'll find someone else to gossip about! Stand your ground and don't back down,,,you and your children are the most important people here, remember that, and talk with your kids about the situation and let them know your plans. And besides...do those busybodies speak other languages fluentl, apart from English and Gaelic????????? Hell NO...! Hug your kids and have one for yourself, and ......breathe....!
drumlanrigsquare from dawson city yukon canada
Mjc:re the welsh and language skills, I like to think that the people I worked and lived among were actually just nice folk. As for dutch even the netherlanders say it is not so much a lianguage more a disease of the throat: an insult some norwegians level at danish. I was also told years ago that netherlanders did not particularly like being called 'dutch' because of the the similarity to deutsch. Is not "Pennsylvania dutch" actually german?
Hyper-Borean from Idealists retreat
mjc.thanks very much for your kind offer.for just now nz is on hold as i now have 5 slipped discs s the surgeon said no foolish flights for now as he was to take out 3 of the discs and replace them with silicone ones-a thing i am not keen on at all,so am at the physio every day. when i do go back to nz will probably go via singapore etc as at xmas i though lax was a nightmare whilst in transit,but maybe i will take up your offer if i do end up going via lax;god bless
carol from france
Hyper-B.: Pennsylvania Dutch are German. Dutch is of course properly called Nederlands. Holland is only a part of Netherlands. I particularly enjoy the north/eastern-most parts of the Netherlands: Friesland. Nah, Dutch is a fun language. Thanks for the info. Hyper-B. The episode in the Pacific must have been awfully interesting.
mjc from NM,USA
Sorry for the silly error above, due to rapid composition. Of course, I meant that what we often call Holland should be called the Netherlands (Holland being a component part), Dutch as language is locally referred to as Nederlands. Again, wonderful country & people, and the language is interesting (as to the cooking ....)
mjc from NM,USA
The beauty of knowing a language which the natives assume you don't know is that it provides you with an enormous advantage in interaction (of course: you have to watch your body language in order not to reveal your secret, AND a thick - very thick - skin helps).
mjc from NM,USA
i agree with you mjc/ whilst shopping in nimes on friday afternoon i was accosted by a gypsy, so not wanting any hassle and not wanting to be rude i answered her in english saying i was sorry i couldn't speak french,she followed me to my car saying still in french that i shouldn't be afraid of her,by now she was getting on my nerves,but when she saw my car she turned very aggresive,insulting me as she still thought i couldn't understand her,when i let rip and answered her back in not too polite french i thought she was going to faint she was speechless, then a big new mercedes arrived and in she got then it was me who was speechless!!
carol from france
Mjc, I like the Dutch/Netherlanders. I spent the first couple of years of my professional life communicating with colleagues at Schipol on an almost daily basis. We also had an international football match between our respective workplaces. Their hospitality was mind blowing, including a booze up in a brewery. They say God made the world and the Dutch made Holland, now that's what I call diy.
Hyper-Borean from Thhe hardware store
Back to Gaelic. Are there gaelic classes in the evening/afternoon for young/older ones? Or is it all on a learn on your own (or make your own personal arrangements) basis? You would think the local govt. might encourage the learning of Gaelic as a second language through the provision of classes etc.
mjc from NM,USA
The kids are taught gaelic in mainstream classes in school, but if they are in special needs classes like two of mine then they are not given the opportunity. Adults are able to learn via the college who do courses on campus and online. I think there are other ways to learn locally as well, i seem to remember hearing of a course last year where gaelic speakers were being asked to help people to learn?? The education minister says that the council here on lewis will be getting a further £45,000 this coming year for gaelic medium classes so they are encouraging learners and that is good. The online course is the one i'm thinking of trying just now and i'm hopeful, but when i hear local born people telling me how hard it is (the course that is)it does worry me a bit.
tanith from point
mjc, re learning gaelic, there are 'Immersion Classes' starting all over the island - in Stornoway, Carloway, and in my own village Breasclete ... The way is open for communities to apply for the funding for the gaelic immersion classes to come to *them* now ... perhaps why so many people are thinking about it ... My own classes begin in April ... two minutes walk down to the community hall ... Immersion classes consist of gaelic-only spoken in the classroom ... No english/anything else whatsoever ... There is no reading or writing, no grammar, only hearing it spoken, then speaking it back ... A few choice bits of miming to get the meaning across ... a few props, e.g. plates and cups, fruit and foodstuffs, and each class is 'themed' for example: making a cup of tea, or feeding the cat, or going to the beach etc ... It is strictly conversation-only ... The Immersion method is supposed to be the best and quickest way to learn a conversational language ... They say that after 200 hours of classes, you should be fluent ... But this depends upon being able to speak it to people at home all the time ... The classes work best for the parents of the children who are in the gaelic medium, ... Not really for me, who only speaks felin-ese at home, with a smattering of Hissinduck ... I'm not sure I shall stay the course ... :-)
soaplady from also resisting ...
A total immersion class sounds like a utopian dream. What a superb idea. It would almost tempt fpu to move to Lewis.....but for the fact that she has done a few islands for quite a few years and somehow, the bigger island is calling.
Flying Cat from forty shades of green
Coming in very late on this language debate, in which I have not previously taken part. Gaelic is a second language in the islands, next to English. It is not on to compel people to learn a language. Neither is it very polite to speak a language in front of others whom you know will not understand it. I speak more than one language, so ought to know about these things. If you come to Lewis, people will appreciate it if you show an interest in the indiginous language and culture. However, I have read the above 30-odd comments, and discern an ugly undercurrent, which I find deplorable. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. But Gaelic is officially NOT the first language here, and should be taken up when people see fit. And those coming to live here should not be ostracised for declining to take classes. It's optional.
Arnish Lighthouse from Stornoway
...but Gaelic WOULD have been the official first language in Gaeldom, if it hadn't been treated with such contempt by various past educators, so perhaps it needs to be elevated to it's rightful place once again. Without any ostrich sizing.
Flying Cat from makin' a ceol mor
I started to learn gaelic, one word a day, but only in a previous job. So I can count to ten, but can't spell in Gaelic ( my English aint that good either ) and I'm coming later than Arnish Lighthouse, (that's one for the ladeeze out there) but after 20 years here you'd think that I'd have picked up a bit more, but I'm lucky to speak English coherently, never mind learning another language. I am fluent in other things though.
Thewhitesettler from the Croft Lewis
When in Rome ....(Arnish): only up to a point, I should think. I shudder at the thought of having to rob the Scottish whatever Bank to get kitted up in a (newly minted) Clan's regalia to accompany the Gaelic. Seriously, languages are wonderful to potter with, if one has the knack. Those who don't have the facility should not be browbeaten and made to feel unwelcome, ungrateful and incompetent. # Personally, I would not mind learning Gaelic, if only to honor those Irish brothers who taught me English (and who, if the sad truth be told, could barely dabble in Gaelic themselves). I really have to dust that OUP Gaelic tape set out, and put away the Hugo Turkish in Three Months set that my eyes have been avoiding for ... three months.
mjc from NM,USA
To come back to an earlier point; Soaplady quotes 200 hours of total immersion classes plus practice with native speakers outwith the class. That seems to me to be rather a long time. Night classes usually cover 2 terms of the school year each of 12 to 15 weeks. At 3 hours per session that is 90 hours per year maximum. My experience is that 2 years of night classes is good for reasonable conversation skils plus either an NVQ or, in the old days, an O level. Is Gaelic harder or are we aiming at perfection? By the way mjc your men in black would have spoken Irish Gaelic if they had the language. The Brits used to call this Erse I will leave it to others to make the inevitable earthy comment. I was told by a native Gaelic speaking colleague years ago, that when he was growing up in the west of Lewis during WW2 they used to listen to Radio Eirrean as the two languages are to a good extent mutually understandable as I believe Welsh and Breton are but to a lesser extent.
Hyper-Borean from Glossolalia
This is so interesting. I'm looking forward to going up to Stornoway next month. First to Glasgow to see my daughter. Actually I find it quaint and even heart-warming to hear the gaelic speaking among the Scots are touchy about their tongue. We have a similar thing going on hear with an influx of Spanish speaking folks and the uproar about keeping English as our main language. I love the Gaelic language. My interest started in hearing Karen Matheson sing Amazing Grace, from then on I was hooked. But I expect people to be touchy about their language & culture, to some degree I think it's to be expected. So hang in there, I love the Scottish people, they've contributed mightily to the world. And be Proud that you are what you are. Those touchy folks will just have to adust to you as you get to be comfortable with them.
dan from Near Seattle, WA USA
Dan: Amazing Grace sung in Gaelic? The world holds all kind of surprises.
mjc from NM,USA
Amazing Grace in Gaelic perhaps no surprise, I think the tune to which it is set is originally scottish. But how about hearing "Twinkle twinkle little star." sung by a small child on a HongKong street; in, presumably, cantonese.
Hyper-Borean from Grace Note's shieling
Your imagination knows no bounds, Hyper-B.! You are quite hilarious ("off with his head!"). Twinkle, twinkle sounds better in Hakka, if I may so myself. Cantonese is for the citified coastal inhabitants who could not tell she-crab soup from a crap shoot (my mother reads this, and she'll kill me, I fear). Twinkle, twinkle in Mandarin sounds just like "The East is Red" sung by a Glaswegian who has of drink partaken (I heard it with my own ears at 2 am by my hotel window in rainy Glasgow).
mjc from NM,USA
Drink? In Glasgow? I cannae BELIEVE it!!!
Flying Cat from a boozer's bloom
Let's get this straight mjc; you heard a drunken mandarin speaker singing the East is Red ( or was it Twinkle twinkle) in Glasgow? Are you certain that the drink had not been partaken of by the auditor and that the language was merely glaswegian. A simple mistake in my experience.
Hyper-Borean from John Broomie's Law
"The East is Red" sung at 2 am by a Glaswegian "walking under the influence" (WUI) under the window of my hotel room in Glasgow sounded just like a Taiwanese singing "Twinkle, Twinkle ..." in Mandarin. All this exotic traveling is really messing up the music scene. Where are you John Denver and Marty Robbins now that we need you?
mjc from NM,USA
Marty last seen in El Paso whilst John was disappearing along a country road in the direction of West Virginia.
Hyper-Borean from By the side of the lonesome pine
Come on over, Hyper-B., bring your banjo and I'll get the ukelele (but I am not going down the Ohio except on a rigid Royal Navy inflatable! Those folks from Kentucky are unpredictable!!). Ole Marty was unavoidably detained in El Paso as you well know, and poor John got lost (that's the only explanation) and ended up in Colorado. John should have taken the jet plane. Did you know his real name was Henry John Deutschendorf, Jr.!! (and Bob Dylan's original name was Robert Alan Zimmerman!! While we are at it: John Wayne's real name was Marion Morrison! I kid you not!!). # Oh yes, Gaelic ...
mjc from NM,USA
We seeem to have lost a comment hereabouts. I did comment on the Duke's resemblance to a Boy Named Sue. Ah well! Home for 3 days off now, time for the sippin' whisky. I don't have any facility with stringed instruments but if it's OK with you mjc I'll pass on the 5 string in favour of the fiddle
Hyper-Borean from The back porch
I tnink gaelic just fell off the map...
Flying Cat from A Northern Fastness
I've been into my family tree for decades. My ancestors spoke Gaelic. I think it be nice to sing Amazing Grace in Gaelic. I got it written but would like to have an audio clip of it so I'd have the pronunciation right. Does anyone have it on line?
Russ Dean from West Virginia, USA
Speak whatever language you want - I have to speak to folk up there on business a few times a week, and they insist on speaking Gaelic to me even though they know I can't speak it. That, to me, is the height of ignorance, and a surefire way to alienate the rest of Scotland from Gaeldom. So I've deicded to learn the Irish of my ancestors, just for the hell of it!
Annis from Glasgow
I'm about to move up to Lewis with my kids and we are all looking forward to learning Gaelic. I've started by going to a few day classes and I am enjoying using the old brain cells for something more than adding up the household budget, reading recipes and balancing the books etc. It's a joy but I must admit it is very different to English and French and the spellings are quite confusing to me. Still I can say a few sentences already and I try and learn a new one each day. Tha Gaelic beag agam. Or should I say? Tha Gaelic beag beag agam. I'm not sure what's right for I have a teeny weeny amount of Gaelic? Tis tricky indeed!
Sue from Edinburgh
I'd like to make it the Big 5-0....50 mhor!
Flying Cat from Cheshire Grin
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