In the Footsteps of Muhammad

Indonesia - Monday 12 July, 8 - 8.30pm - Programme 4

Warning: This is a working script, not a transcript, it is for interest only and not reference and it will contain un-corrected material that does not appear in the final programme.

Gamelan

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A couple of puppets made of buffalo hide, a light, a screen, and some fairly crude sound effects. Not much, you might think, but Wayang Kulit; the Indonesian shadow-puppet theatre found in Java and Bali, can keep audiences enraptured for hours - right through the night, sometimes. From the auditorium where I am sitting you can only see the shadow of the puppets projected on the screen, but in the hands of a skilled puppet master they come alive - and although the stories are based on the great Hinhu epics, and the genre goes back for over a millennium, the subject matter can easily be updated so a really good performance becomes a kind of modern morality tale, full of clever references to contemporary politics.

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The person who operates the puppets and puts words into their mouths is known as a dalang. Aldi san-jiya is a dalanga and also a guide at the wayang puppet museum.

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A …this way. So this the hall… (Discussion). All this material, our people still keep er with the traditional make yeah? First the water buffalo hide, so that hide - since long, long time ago our people use. Er we have a reason for that skin, because inside a lot of collagens, or tendons. That's why we can carve very detailed then on the skin. And then the process also, we need to get a, fine quality. First process, we boil it, the skin, underwater and then er we hang to get dry and straight. We should wait until one month to get really straight. Er many people at some time, they collect puppet, not, keep for long time. Their own puppet skin curve.
Q Ah…
A That's why we still keep that er process, yeah? And then er after we get a really er flat skin, and we draw. There are more than 200 characters for this kind puppet, when we're talking about the leather puppet, yeah? Or the sido puppet. And then er…this knife for carving and then that's a hammer for (??) yeah? And we get like this, can you see that? That's our altering things…(discussion).
Q And this is a, this a shadow puppet isn't it?
A Yeah right.
Q And this is made from…
A From the buffalo…
Q From the buffalo. And, and you've, this very intricate carving, um must be extremely difficult to do that.
A Yeah. It's a delicate person to make this yeah?
Q Tiny, it's almost like lace, the carving on this.
A Right
Q And this is a, this figure - this is a woman is it?
A Oh that's male.
Q It's male?
A Yeah. Like…
Q Sh…(laughs)
A …a contract between male and female?
Q It looks a, a…
A Males are s…styled like this. Er they opens, dress around the stomach area…can you see that?
Q Where, where? This, in the middle, this…
A Yeah in the middle…
Q …I see, he's got a hole in his…
A Right
Q …in the middle of him which…
A …they're possibly open in the stomach area…
Q I see…
A …and then the female, the dress cover…
Q I see she's covered up for modesty's sake, no...
A Yeah…yeah. All right so…
Q …doubt. Yes (Laughs).
A …and also the female, we have er slimmer than the male.
Q The female's slimmer - quite right too.
A Yeah slimmer, yeah.
Q Yes…yes.
A So er during our pup…er our people carve the puppet, when they mistake one part, we should throw them away for everything.
Q So this, these, this is perfect, this puppet, with...
A That's right. We should make perfect.
Q I mean it must take forever to carve like this. Every, almost ever inch of the thing is, er every centimetre is covered.
(Discussion).
Q So did, I mean just this puppet is, is, what I suppose a couple of feet in length…
A Yeah
Q Um it's flat…
A Yes
Q …it's made of er the hide, which is presumably is so that the shadow goes through it…
A Yes sir…
Q And the arms hang off the edge…
A Yeah
Q …and are attached to these…
A The stick er…
Q Sticks of…
A …to move arms.
Q …so, and that's how the puppeteer…
A Yeah. Is flexibles yeah?
Q …moves. And then there's a, a big stick coming down the centre, which is…
A A stick for a standing puppet.
Q And that just stands in the ground…
A Just stands, yeah, yeah…
Q …the puppeteer doesn't hold that. It just stands in the ground.
A That's right. Near this, a banana tree. Er, we put, just put the puppet on the banana tree.
Q I see. And then you…
A Yeah
Q …manipulate the arms…
A Yeah it's moved…
Q …with these em…
A …right.
Q …sticks which come off the edge.
A It is, yeah. Well er w…just carving, it takes about one week until 10 days. At the finish it has spent it. Like this we already finished here.
Q Now this one is the same. It's…
A Yeah
Q …got the same, same sort of sides…
A …well we painted er…
Q …and intricate. But it's painted…
A …what side?
Q …in very bright colours and very precisely, tiny um brush you must use, just to get the detail in those carvings…
A Right
Q …those lace-like carvings, which cover…that's, and that, that, that, that, those colours make the puppets' clothes?
A Yeah right. And also er our people still keep this er colour, made by er vegetable dyes.
Q Really? 'Cos they're…
A Yeah.
Q …very, they're very vivid aren't they? Thos purples and crimsons and blues and…
A Yes. A mixture of colours, yeah.
Q …and greens.
A And er according to our man who make this puppet, when we make by natural colours, er the colour can dye it into the skin like a tattoo.
Q I see.
A Yes
Q So it holds it…
A Right sir. It's long, it lasts, yeah? And we should (??) also about sight, with the same colour.
Q Both sides the same colour.
A Yeah. Not the words.
Q And if you make a mistake when you're doing the painting…
A Right.
Q …you also have to throw it away, do you?
A Yeah. But I just tell friend 'I cannot make this' (laughs)
Q You can't?
A Yes. I just er play talents, this one talent for me. I'm a puppet mast…
Q You're a puppeteer.
A Puppeteer - right.
Q But you don't do the making of them.
A I don't (Laughs)
Q Where are they made? Do they make them…
A Er here. We have also er in our, in Jakarta I mean, in our friend's house, yeah? It's…
Q You must have to be very skilled…
A Yes sir.
Q …to do it?
A So that's a character you hold er Rama - a very famous character er from the Ramayana story. It's taken from the Hindu story yeah - Rama - and that's a female, it's Sintha. They are er nice couples in the story, with the happy spirit. The he…er the love spirit, like Romeo and Juliet.
Q These 2?
A Yeah
Q These are Romeo and Juliet. It has…
A Yeah, Rama.
Q …to be said, they've both got quite depressing or depressed expressions I should say. They don't…
A Yes
Q …look very happy do they, with these long noses and these…
A Yeah
Q …rather sort of grimacing mouths.
A That's why our, sometimes people asking about the faces puppet er why our, our puppet faces, the long nose, something like that.
Q Yeah
A That is the er amazing faces, like god faces, yeah?
Q Because they're divine, because they're gods…
A Right
Q …they have these strange faces?
A Yeah. I guess so.
Q I see.
A And the story also like the, in the heaven story yes? So er, I would like to show you also we have the er old er collection about 100 years old, yeah?
Q I don't, just er all the stories come from, from Hindu…
A Right. Yeah…
Q …do they? Hin…Hindu stories?
A Hindu story right. So we have er from Ramayama and some from Mahabarata. But als…but er from Hindu also.
Q And, and they come presumably they date from em the deep, the…presumably they date from the distant past in Indonesia. They were here before Islam arrived…
A From India.
Q From India they came? Yeah…
A Yeah India, it was er Hindu. And also Hindu it was the first region came in Java Island and then about the Buddhists came here, Hindu came here around the 5th century…
Q 5th century?
A Yeah, and then Buddhist in er 9th century, yeah, and then er 14th century, the Muslim came here yeah?
Q And they still remain very popular even though Islam is now the main religion?
A I reckon so.
Q Yeah?
A If in our people the majority are Muslim, but still er keep that story. That's why the puppet now we just say belong to everyone's generals, yeah. Er that's why everybody have puppet at home, they're happy with the collection of the spirit. Come…
Q What d…what does it mean to people? Does it, does it mean their history, or does it mean something religious as well, d'you think?
A Er…I think now it's not religious any more, just for er decoration, yeah? And some of the people believe they will get a s…happy spirit at home, with the…
Q (Chuckles)
A …puppet like that, yeah?
Q I've heard it said that sometimes er puppeteers like yourself when they're putting on a show, they give the story a bit of a twist to give it a contemporary political feel. Is that right?
A Yeah some time. Er especially at the moment er it's free for us to talk more about politic than we compare about 5 or 10 years ago, yeah? It's very hard to talk about that. It's a good idea sometime I put a little bit politic critic about our governments, everythings, yeah (laughs).
Q What d'you do? What d'you do, you, you, you use one of these figures to make fun of a politician?
A Yeah. Yeah right. It's er, we had, when they do s…wrong, maybe they feel bad when talk about that (laughs) er when they feel clear it's OK (laughs). Yes er our government, everything, yeah? and also puppet always increases the story, not only puppet in story from Hindu. Sometime er we're talking for education and then also er for the er family plannings like our government say 2 children enoughs, yeah? That's why I let, I show you er, we have er, um in the family plannings a puppet. Er the puppet carry the children.
Q I see
A And it's better er we do in puppet than we talk just concept to the people. They are very hard to understand about that. When we do it with the puppet, they more understand. It open their mind. How happy the father or the parents carry the baby.
Q So it's all sorts of things. I mean it's a religious message, it's a…
A Yes
Q …a public service…
A Yeah…
Q …message, and it's also um a, a sort of way of conducting political controversy.
A I think so. Everything yeah (laughs) in the puppet.
Q Everything in this puppet?
A Yes
Q Well it's very impressive.
A That's why puppet is mirror of our life, (p1)

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This essentially Hindu art form would certainly be frowned upon by the Wahabi authorities in Saudi Arabia, and I am ending my journey a very long way - in distance time, and culture - from the world of Muhammad where it began it.

Islam in Indonesia is distinctive, but it can't simply be dismissed as eccentric - apart from anything else they proudly tell you here that there are more Muslims in Indonesia than in the whole of the Arab world put together.

And there are those believe Indonesia may hold the key to perhaps the biggest question of all about Islam's future; can this religion which began amid the tribes of the desert in the 7th century be reconciled with the ideals of liberal democracy in the 21st century?

Professor Robert Hefner is an associate director of the Centre on Religion and World Affairs at Boston University and he sees the stirring of something that sounds very much like an Islamic Enlightenment.

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And in the case of Islam, one of the striking features of Muslim politics, not just democratic Muslim politics, or civil Islam, but of all forms of Muslim politics, is that if a political system is going to get legs, if it's gonna be sustainable, it has to be legitimised in terms that are recognisable to observant believers. And there's where you see an effort in Indonesia and in some other Muslim countries - it's really quite distinctive. It's an effort to dig into the cultural heritage, the literary and scriptural heritage in Islam, and find in it resources that are compatible with a civic and pluralist democratic tradition. It may also require and indeed most Muslim, most proponents of Mu…Muslim proponents of democracy would also say this I think, that it may require a very critical attitude towards other elements of Islamic tradition. Not least of all, for example, er traditions from the Middle Ages of Muslim politics and Muslim civilisation that make a forceful distinction between Muslims and non-Muslims. And similarly make a forceful and very inequitable distinction between males and females. (p5)

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Islam arrived in Java - the largest of the islands in the Indonesian archipelago - not through conquest but through trade.

Since the religion first established a foot hole here in the 14th century it has spread throughout the thousands of islands in the South China Sea that we now know as Indonesia, and today 87% of the population of over 200 million identify themselves as Muslim.

But there are some 330 ethnic groups in Indonesia, and they speak 250 distinct languages. There are Christians and Hindus here, followers too of Confucianism, and indeed of the ancient animist cults which once flourished on the islands.

From time to time stories of religious and communal violence here make the newspapers in Britain - but many Indonesians argue that in fact it is the relative harmony amid so much diversity that is the real story.

Indonesia's politics have been - to put it mildly - turbulent since the country gained independence from the Netherlands in 1949; its Year of Living Dangerously in 1965 provoked a revolution which cost half a million lives and it is only six years since the country emerged from the dictatorship of President Suharto.
The Bali bombing in 2002 gave militant Islam in Indonesia an international profile.
The American based International Crisis Group was set up as a political early-warning system after the civil war in the Balkans caught so many people by surprise - Sydney Jones is the director of the South East Asia branch and is based in Jakarta.

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I think you can't be blind to the pressures from the right, and the pressures on precisely that kind of contract between Islamic groups or Islam in Indonesia and civil society from this very conservative and very aggressive, right wing movement.
Q And you believe that, that is growing at the moment?
A I believe it's growing. I believe it's still small, but I believe that increasingly the moderate mainstream has to have answers to the challenges posed by the religious right. (* insert p4)
Q D'you think it's got that and d'you think it's going through the sort of creative thinking that you need for that?
A I think it's just beginning and I think that as one of the moderate leaders said to me once, 'We've gotta learn how to be more militantly moderate.' (p7)

Um, I do think that the growth of the hard-line groups has made the moderate mainstream more conscious of the fact that if they're going to retain the, the moderate mainstream, they're going to have to be more active than they'd been in the past. They can't be, they can't passively assume that their ranks are going to stay as large as they are now. (p4)

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Azumardi Azra at State Islamic University is very conscious of that challenge - and to meet it he's introduced a special course for his students.

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Yeah er in order, I think, to, to address the er literal understanding of Islam that can lead to militancy or radicalism or ac…extremism, we have to present Islam in a, in a broad, as broad as er, as possible. Because Islam is not only er, is not only a theology, but also a social and historical phenomenon. Er, we cannot take, y'know a literal understanding of Islam er in the, in literal understanding of er, verses of the Koran, for instance. We need to contextualise these verses of the Koran into a real situation er, er…either in cultural and social life. So in order er in, in this, in this context, we introduce I think, we are the first university er that er beco…became a pilot project for the implementation of civic education er as a required course in the, at university level. Er in this course, we er introduce for instance, the compatibility er between Islam and democracy, Islam and human right, Islam and gender issues, gender equity and things like that. Contemporary issues. Er we er and then er after being successful er in the implementation of the civic education er civic education course, we er, er spread this course er in…into, to all Islamic universities throughout Indonesia. Not only state er state Islamic college, but also private Islamic universities throughout Indonesia. And id a, in addition, we also are introduce civic education as well as democracy education for young 'Kiarists'. Kia is the leader of the passantrim er, er, a young cleric if you will. Er we invite them to campus and then we er, we introduce them, we er train them in the issue on democracy, human right, gender equity. We invite also in fact er, er Muslim women preachers to come to campus and then stay on campus for one week, and then we train them in, again in democracy, the role of women in democracy, the compatibility between Islam and democracy. How er y'know er equality er between male and female in Islam can be exercised er through democratic er, democratic means. (p3)

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This is an environment that plays a very big part in Jakarta life - the inside of a car. If you happen to find yourself cursing and sweating on the underground this summer, reflect what it is like travelling in a capital city of 25 million people where you can only get about by road. The view from a Jakarta traffic jam is pretty uninspiring - the city grew so fast there wasn't much leisure to design anything with style or elegance. All that's really left is our friend the radio - and jt is a fair bet that many of the cars around us are tuned in to "68H".

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Ulil radio show

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the show was er started as em, as em, a campaign yeah, to promote em…and to challenge the, the Fundamentalist interpretation of Islam here. So we er on purpose, we, we select a certain and particular excuse. We just er, er mostly em…debate it by the Fundamentalist people. For example the issue of the application of Islamic Sharia. We have a series of shows on this issue, and we, we, we invite em er progressive Muslim thinkers, intellectual activists to talk about er this issue from, from liberal point of view, yeah?
Q D'you get conservatives on as well?
A Of course, yeah er we, we, we invited, er…er conservative people to talk. But of course the, er the space is, is, is, is mostly for the liberal. Because this campaign yeah, this is a campaign yeah?
Q This is, this is not a, a balanced programme - this is a, this is a, an out and out…
A We…well we…
Q …campaigning programme?
A …we, we, we try to be balanced, but of course er…yeah. The upper hand is (laughs) for the (laughs) P14)

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As a programme concept, it certainly seems to work - Ulil Absal Abdalla's weekly chat show that claims one of the highest radio audiences in South East Asia. But his aggressively liberal views - you might almost call him a militant moderate - have also earned him a "fatwa" from a group of conservative Muslim clerics who argued that some of the things he has said merit the death sentence.

It is all the more striking because this energetic 36 year-old comes from a very conservative background; his father, who used beat him for reading anything in English, ran a "pesantran", or religious school, where Ulil studied until he arrived in Jakarta in his early twenties to read Islamic law at the Institute of Islamic law and Arabic studies.

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this is the day of the birth of the Prophet, and it is the national holiday (laughs.) Er, er Prophet Muhammad in the field of Muslim is a kind of sacred figures, yeah. And um, and no, nobody are encouraged to criticise er, the historical aspect of the prophet…prophetic life here. But I'm, I, I don't think that this is the good things to do, because we need to be critical of some historical aspect of the Prophet. Um, there are some, some success in his life, but there are some failures, yeah? So, so, so we can evaluate the success and the failure of the Prophet from the vantage point of the, of the Muslim who live in the 20th century for example, yeah. And of course it is very, very hard, yeah, to be critical of the life of the Prophet. Er, a historical prophet er, er let's say, is very hard to accept for Muslim, because for Muslim prophet is not historical figure, it is er a magical or yeah, a magical figure see.
Q If you do that though, if you question the…the very idea that the Prophet lived a perfect life, that he was a figure to be emulated, don't you take away one of the cornerstones of Islam?
A The, the idea of immolation and em, yeah, the immolation of the Prophet is quite widespread yeah, in the 20th century er Muslim rhetoric here. It's, it's everywhere. But er, but I try to be critical about this er, this cause on the immolation of the Prophet, because er immolation of which aspect?
Q Is it 'emulation' you're trying to say?
A Yeah. (Discussion) Er…yeah the idea of emulation of the Prophet here is, is er, is widespread among the Muslim in modern times. But I'm, I'm trying myself to be critical of these ideas, because emulation of…which aspect of the Prophet's life? Because, because if you emulate er any single aspect of the prophet's life, it's, it's, it's ridiculous, because there are some irrelevant aspects of the Prophet's life, er for a life now. For example, this is my, this is my argument against the Fundamentalists or Islamists who try to revive the idea of er Islamic theocracy in modern time. My argument's like this em, if you t…if you emulate Prophet em…what, in any single of his life, it means that you need to have, to establish er a new system in which the, there is no division of power. Er an exclusive branch like judiciary is on one hand and it means dictatorship. Do you, do you say that Islamic state or Islamic theocracy is a dictatorship? Which, which, which doesn't er…er now about the division of power? I think it is ridiculous if you, if you say that this is the…the prophet model to emulate now yeah…
Q So your - just being clear about this - your view is that a Fundamentalist understanding of Islam is not compatible with democracy? But…
A It's not compatible. It's not compatible, but Fundamentalist view on Islam is not a single, or not the only understanding on Islam. Because there are um…another er way to understand Islam, er except Fundamentalism. So I mean, I mean…I mean liberal interpretation of Islam is a kind of challenge to the Fundamentalist interpretation of this religion, yeah.
Q And y…and your understanding of Islam, your refreshed understanding…
A Yeah, yeah…
Q …that is compatible with democracy?
A Yeah. Mm-hm. Yeah. So, so we need, we need to er, we need to visit the, the popular word used by many intellectual here, to re-contextualise yeah, the re-contextualisation of Islam in the, in the particular er historical contexts in which we live here. (p10)

Q You were t…you're talking about a major, historical revolution really aren't you? In, in European or Christian terms something like the Renaissance and the Reformation?
A Er…I am not sure that this is going to be er a kind of Lutheran revolution in Islamic world, here. But I hope so because, because for the first time there, there, there is er, a global awareness that Islam need em a clear voice to challenge the, the traditional revivalist er version of Islam, which is very strong in the ground here. For the first time I, I er…in my observation, for the first time, this is a global awareness er…for changing em…er, Islam from within yeah? (p17)

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That challenge goes to the very heart of the way Islam understands itself - it is asking Islam to go through an intellectual revolution not unlike the kind of traumatic upheavals which have periodically engulfed Christianity. Professor Robert Hefner of the Centre on Religion and World Affaris at Boston.

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Some I think more or less modernist thinkers will say 'Well if we go back to er the contract in Medina, er which was of course, the first Islamic state, founded by er the prophet Muhammad after his Hijra or exile from Mecca, er modernists, many modernists Muslim thinkers will look at the contract that the Prophet made with Christians and Jews in Medina and recognise that or er insist that, that was a model of equality, and indeed constitutional government. I think more er others, and, and perhaps more critical thinkers in the Muslim world, and this would include not just in Indonesia, er where this issue is much discussed, but in many Muslim countries, they take a somewhat em, more historical and critical historical attitude towards er the model, the Medina model. And they say 'Well that may have worked at…the, at the time and the place of the Prophet Muhammad, but that was one context, and a context that differs very differently from the situation of a modern economy, a modern culture. And er, the kind of modern development to which Muslims and other modern peoples aspire.' And therefore rather than seeing the specific relationship, for example between the Prophet and Muslims on one hand, and Jews and Christians in Medina as an example for modern citizenship, you say quite frankly no, no - that it wasn't a form of modern citizenship. But what it testified to was, or what it legitimates in the fact is constitutional and contractual government. The idea that government itself shouldn't be just a matter of patrimonial or personal authority, but it is something that c…should and must be negotiated. The negotiations must be open, and they must be on the basis of non-compulsion and if, in effect, a constitution. Now that second interpretation of the Medina precedent then, is a much more, is a much more critical one than if you will the classically modernist, and if I can say so myself, the somewhat more apologetic approach to early Muslim history that's adopted by some thinkers.
Q It, it also requires a degree of contextual thinking, which a lot of Muslims would reject very violently.
A Absolutely and that is a phrase that one hears used er abundantly in places like Indonesia, Iran and er Turkey - at least among those thinkers who consider themselves Muslim pluralists and democrats. They insist that indeed it is historical context that specifies as much how one should interpret em, high Muslim ethics, as much as it is any kind of detailed plan or detailed precedent that was established for all time.
Q But you wouldn't, you wouldn't hear those ideas in very much of the Muslim world, would you, today?
A There would be large segments of the Muslim world where these ideas would be er considered if not er apos…er…outright apostasy, they would be objectionable. In er in Egypt, for example, these types of ideas have em, have earned some people death sentences on the part, or death sentences uttered by, by certain religious scholars. So yes in many parts of the Muslim world, these are very, very deeply controversial ideas. And that's what makes I think places like Indonesia very interesting. (p8)

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The street being canvassed by this team from the "PKS" party is a psephologist's feast of a mixed neighbourhood - there are big middle class mansions tucked away amid the banyan trees with their trailing creepers, but also one room shacks like this fast food joint serving fried fish. There's a minute mosque with washing hanging out to dry in the courtyard and a couple venerable bikes leaning up against the wall, and the open drains running along the side of the road provide a striking illustration of how difficult it has proved to develop the city's infrastructure to match its growth.

ACTUALITY

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The Prosperous Justice Party, or PKS as its known by its Indonesian initials, is one of Indonesia's Islamic parties, and produced one of the big surprises of the recent parliamentary elections; it secured some 7% of the vote - up from 1.6 % in 1999; and what one might loosely call conservative religious groups got 42% of the vote overall.

It is perhaps a mark of where the centre lies in Indonesian politics that even an avowedly Islamic political party like the PKS plays down the idea of an Islamic state. But they certainly would not welcome the kind of contextualised thinking that Robert Heffner believes is needed.

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It really emerged er, it merged from the rank er ranks of er Islamist student activists, who were ac…who um came together in 1998 in the final months of the Suhatu era, and er joined as latecomers to er the reformation, or 'Reformasi Process' as it's called in Indonesia. Latecomers who were opposed to what they regarded as the excessively left wing or liberal democratic and secular um secutor biases of er some of the democracy movement. And student activists therefore who wanted to give the er reform movement a er a more Islamist and in particular Sharia or Islamic law emphasis. And so the, the PKS has er, has a very sort of, ambivalent origins. It is on one hand a reform organisation, but on the other it is at least at its founding, an organisation that is dedicated to the idea that Indonesia should over time be turned into an Islamic state. Now what's happened in recent years is this movement that again started out as student activist and then in 1990…late '98, 1999, turned itself into a political party. This, this movement has if you will em, itself become a bit uncertain as to which of er the 2 commitments it wants to emphasise more. Is it to be good government, and er a good society, an ethical society which the PKS talks a good deal about? Or is it to be this ideal of a er, of an Islamic state, a state based on Sharia - Islamic law. (p17)

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Sydney Jones from the International Crisis Group

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the PKS on its surface is, seems like a very moderate party. And he, I think himself is genuinely er a moderate individual. But you look at some of the legislative candidates that have been fielded by PKS, and many of them graduated from an institution here in Jakarta called LIPIA, which is the Institute for the Study of Islam in Arabic. It was a Saudi funded organisation, has links back to a university in Riyadh, and many of the graduates of LIPIA - which PKS basically controls now - are people who've gotten degrees in Sharia from Saudi universities. And that doesn't turn you automatically into a hard-liner. But the core is hard, is more hard-line than the moderate base of the leadership of PKS would suggest.
Q And it does have, does it not, some links, or at least suspected links, with those who are active terrorists?
A PKS has only a few people that you would put in the category of close to, or involved with terrorism. One of the people is someone who's become er a l…a, a parliamentary member from South Siluwesi, who has very close links to people within Jamias Lamia or at least to Jamias Lamia affiliates in south Siluwesi. There are a couple of other members whose ties are fairly close - particularly in central Siluwesi. Er the party as a whole has given moral support to Abu Bakhir Bashir and to the organisation that he set up that some people think is the political front of Jamias Lamia - the Mujahadin Council of Indonesia. Mujahadin Council of Indonesia - the MMI is er an enigmatic organisation, and it's not clear it's really the political front of JI. (p3)

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Jamaah islamiyah is a militant group alleged to have links with al-Qeada. Abu Bakhir Bashir is a cleric currently in jail under investigation for possible links with the bombing in Bali (check). But the PKS president Muhammad Hidayat Nur Wahid made a very high-profile prison visit to him nonetheless.

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Well you, you know well that em, Abdul Karba Bashir is er when I visit him not more than er 20 minutes, and before I…visit, too many kind of person, I visit er Gustur, I visit Abdul Raiz, I visit (Saloba Manu Doyona?), I visit Habibi, I visit Agim, I visit er Natansia Buddi, I vis…I visit er Masilam Siman Junduk. Too many people I visit before, before my visiting to Abdul Karba Bashir, and after visiting Abdul Karba Bashir I've seen too many people too. I visit er Hassim Musardi, I visit Ramona Arnu, too many people I visit. Then as er activist, a political acti…political party, I have to communicate with everyone. But not to er support your radical activities, or your terrorism activities. Never. My party and me as person, my, my er, my way is to clear. We are (??) terrorism, in all kind of terrorism might be person actually er person terrorism, er organism terrorism, or state terrorism. All of this kind of terrorism we are saying no to this kind of terrorism.
Q One of your candidates Mr. L…Linrum was also accused by the Philippinos wasn't he of being involved in terrorism and was arrested in Manila a few years ago. Em is it right that you should have a candidate if he's got that background?
A (Laughs) You talk about er…Tamsin Linrum of course - you know well that Tamsin Linrum the, er the condition is not the same with August Lucarna. If Tamsin Linrum is still er the side with the terrorists, he will be arrested in Manila and not going out from Manila. But the connection you know well that er this er, the, of…effectually different between August Lucarna, they've still arrested in Manila, and Tamsin Linrum that's er come free to Indonesia. Then er according to our understand…er understanding of, of justice and also of democracy, if you have not proved that he is wrong, then you don't we, we have not a reason to say that you are wrong. Till there this er other proof that maybe give you new understanding that you are wrong - then er, we know where that's er, er Tamsin Linrum is not August Lucarna. Then we don't, we do…we, we have not any er proof to say that he is terrorist as maybe called to August Lucarna. (p9)

Then according to me er and according to our understand in our er political party in Justice and Welfare Party, according to us em, Islam is never give you understanding to make er something terrorist, something radical, something that limits the good co-operation of others, but will give you the, the, the real proof that Islam give you how to make communication better with others. (p8)

Q Can you tell me a little bit about the party firstly? Um what is your understanding of what an Islamic political party should stand for?
A Yes er according to ours er firstly er Islam is religion, it's give the mankind not only teaching, but how you make worship to your God, but also how to make good communication, good relation to other man…mankind too. To er, which another man, another woman, another nation maybe you are Muslim, you are Muslim, maybe you are not Muslim - maybe you are woman, maybe you are women - then Islam give us the teaching how to make good communication, good relation with others in er, in our worship to our God and also in our daily er activities. And also of course, there in our political activities in our economic activities, in our social activities. But all of the activities is surrounded by something when it's hard to give blessing to people, hard to come with something peace to people, all over the world. (p1)

Q And what would an Islamic state look like, if you were able to introduce one here?
A Yeah er according to me, the more important thing is not er s…talking about Islamic states, but how to practise the good teaching of the religion. Not an Islamic religion - but in Christianity too - er not on, not only Islam teach you to become er something good. Every religion teach you to become good. Not er, no one of the religion teach you and give you a law into practising corruption. No religion give you to practise er, something er maybe called the prostitution, something like that. All religion teach you how to become better. This is, according to us, is something er better, something accurate to talk - then to talk about Islamic state or not Islamic state.
Q I'm just trying to get a sense in practical terms of what you would change if you were to come to power, if you were to be successful at the elections, what would you change that would make Indonesia look like an Islamic state, feel like an Islamic state?
A Yeah er…again what I would like to say - that according to us er the main programme is to become Islamic state or not to become Islamic state, but to become civilised er, civilised state, a welfare state. To become justice state - to give the people what might be called by civil society. (p2)

Q What aspects of Sharia law would you introduce?
A Yeah, according to us that er, Sharia law is em…er not something strange, er according to the er, story of Indonesia. As I talked to you that, before coming of colonies of Dutch, there is er too many er Islamic kingdom here in Indonesia. Then Sharia law, according to Islam, er to the his…history of Indonesia, something none. Then er, according to me, according to our party, em how to practise law, we play it here in Indonesia, if we succeed to practise it, I think it's something good. Y'know that in, in, Indonesian law nothing is er, er allowed to practise such as corruption, such as prostitution, such as gambling - such as like that. Then if you practise, cite this law, it's enough to us. But one of the, our main problem in Indonesia is, you have law, you have Indonesian law. You have a posi…positive law. But this Indonesian law, this positive law, you don't practise it here in Indonesia, then you find too many crises er come and come and go to Indonesian people, and too many thing not solved in Indonesia.
Q What about some of the more controversial aspects of Sharia law as it's been introduced elsewhere in the world? I'm thinking about things like stoning for adultery, cutting off the hands of people er of thieves? Would, would those be on your agenda if you came into power?
A Y…er I say talk to me it's a main, er main agenda of us is not er…
Q Sorry.
A OK thanks. Yes as I talk to you, that's em, I am my, our main agenda is not accord…not to make more er polemics (laughs) about er something maybe not agreed by all Muslim in the world. Not er in, well certainly in Indonesia. But something agreed by all pers…all person of Muslim in the world is if you practice something good to everyone. Er according to us, as er political party and, and we are here in Indonesia, er something er…a current thing to discuss is how to make people er…obey to the law, you find you, you find it here in Indonesia. As I talk to you there's too many kind er too many er, too many first of in Islam, of er Indonesian law. Something good to practise but the very problem is such this good law is not practised in Indonesia, then something er something, a priority to do is how to make people understand to practise the Indonesian law. If they practise Indonesian law correctly, police er practise Indonesian law er correctly, and the judge practise Indonesian law correctly, people practise Indonesian, Indonesian law correctly, the government practise Indonesian law correctly - it's enough. But er, the problem is not about practising Sharia - the problem is practising law in Indonesia. Y'know that Indonesian law is such a thing that you practise in England too - not give you law to practise er corruption. This is one of the other main problem in Indonesia is corruption y'know, I think you know it well. Then if we er succeed in practising activities again er corruption, entire corruption, we will find too many thing to solve our problem. Then according to us, the main agenda is how to make people understand to practise Indonesian law and then by practising Indonesian law, we will find that er we have too many, too many alternative to finish our problem and our stress in Indonesia.
Q I mean I understand what you're saying - that you, your principal target is abuses of the law as it stands at the moment, and that you want to clean up corruption and so forth. But looking beyond that, if you say you want to introduce s…Sharia law, there are these very controversial aspects of it, and it seems right that you should let people know what your views of those are. And…would you, would you introduce some of those things? Stoning for adultery, cutting off people's hands, em for theft?
A Yeah er according to me that em, er we are as er, Indonesian people and my er definition is mostly in yes they have to understand well what it is they think of Islam. And OK, that's one of the teaching of Islam is er according to er, about law, about economic, about act…er education and something, and something others. Then according to me em, yes people has to know that what is the Islamic law. Sharia - one of the Islamic law is Sharia. But y'know that's the, the m…the name of Sharia, the chapter of Sharia is something very, very big. Then the chapter of Sharia is not talk about cutting hand or wearing scarf - this is only something (??) and not something er, er something main. Something main according to Sharia law is how to give justice to people, how to give solutions to the, to the problematic of, of er people. Then according to, er according to us, cutting hand and wearing scarf is not something er priority to, to practice. Not something priority to, to talk about. And something priority to talk about is how to give people, er something justice, something welfare, something more educated. Then if you, you started practising it, it mean you're practising Sharia law if you are Muslim. (p4)

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There is a very important and very Islamic idea behind those words; that the proper place of religion is the public sphere, and that politics belong to God as much as private morality does.

They bring us back to that absolutely critical question of whether Islam is compatible with the principle of liberal democracy which has proved so successful in the evolutionary struggle of big political ideas. Abdal Hakim Murad is a lecturer in the faculty of divinity at Cambridge.

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A The real debate is whether er liberal democracy is in the long term sustainable. Does it furnish er sufficient moral safeguards er and is it anchored in eternal uncontestable principles in such a way as to prevent the republican right from becoming ever more extreme - Jean-Marie le Penn from taking over in France, a replay of the sudden shift that liberal Germany in the Weimar Era experienced as it plunged into the nightmare of Nazism. In other words, the arguments amongst many Muslim intellectuals as they deal with this fact of Western triumph is how sustainable is this liberal, democratic model? Is it really that natural expression of enlightenment, modernity, or is it c…some kind of exception, and sooner or later the West will revert to some kind of science-based totalitarianism? Which is why we need to keep westernisation at bay. That argument's not resolved yet.
Q So in a way, you're saying that the Islamic view is that the question I posed to you is actually the wrong question. One shouldn't be asking whether it's possible to, for Islam to co-exist with a, a pluralist, western style democracy. One should rather be asking whether it's possible for democratic societies to survive without the principles that you believe are enshrined in Islam?
A Er, it's…certainly the case that part of the modern Muslim hesitation about the absorption uncritically of all aspects of western modernity is that western modernity has a dark side and that Hitler and Stalin were as much part of the Enlightenment in a scientific revolution as were Thomas Paine and em, er say the, the, the founders of, of French lib…er liberalism. Er, and it's by no means clear to such thinkers that the West will not revert to type and that the liberal experiments will turn out just to be a blip. But of course er, in many Muslim cultures, er there is tremendous openness - much more generally than one finds in the West. Indonesia is a world, in which there is far more cultural interaction and mutual respect between religions than there is in er say France at the moment, or than there is in, in Germany, where partly because of the growth of the far right, religious minorities and asylum seekers and particularly Muslims, are feeling under increasing pressure (p20)

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Some of those who have made a close study of Islam from the outside are less sanguine. Malise Ruthven is a writer on comparative religion.

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A Well I think that if you look at the history of western theology, you can see that em, clergymen and clergy em, clerical institutions, were at the forefront of…adjusting to the terms of modernity. Em, one of the founding fathers of modernity I suppose one would say, was the French philosopher Rene Descartes. He was a Jesuit, he was er, brought up by Jesuits. So you have that idea that em, er, the religious institutions in the West em, sometimes it was a rearguard action.. I mean it only er, it was only recently that J…John, Pope John Paul apologised to Galileo 400 years late. But nevertheless, there is a continuous engagement with the processes of change, er within a structured and organised religious leadership. You find that even er amongst the so-called 'know nothings', amongst southern Baptists and so forth er, to perhaps a lesser extent. I think part of the problematic in the Islamic world, is that the religious institutions outside the Shiite minority traditions have not maintained their autonomy and cohesion. An where med…m…modernity has come, it's, it's as it were arrived in parallel. It didn't c…didn't come from within the, the system. It came, er it sort of grew up em, alongside it. And this is partly because er important reformists in the Islamic tradition - people like er Sosaid Ahmed Khan in India and Muhammad Abdu in Egypt, were never able to er really force the Olama, the religious leaders er to open up. And the 2 track, parallel system em has meant for a certain kind of cultural schizophrenia which has er, er, ha…ha…ha…has developed. But of course this isn't entirely because of em…the, the structures of Islamic society em a…and learning. It's also due to the fact that the impact of modernity in the Muslim world came from outside - it came from the West. And the societies had to modernise themselves in order to defend themselves from the West. So the Ottoman emperors for instance, had to modernise their armies. They had to modernise their er bureaucracies in order to em er compete successfully as er European rulers in the comedy of nations. But the price that was paid there was that reform and change didn't really happen from inside the religious institution. And I think one consequence of that is the kind of 'nostalgie' which you find in contemporary Islamic thinking - that people are looking back to some sort of sacred, idealised um Islam - quote/unquote - which doesn't really er stand up to um er contemporary realities. (p17)

This is a very complex er, highly controversial area. But I think there are er if you compare how Japan embraced modernity at the turn of the 20th century with how the religious leaders in the Muslim world er resisted modernity, er particularly for instance, the resistance to the introduction of print, which is absolutely critical for, for modernity. Er the first printing presses weren't established in er the Western part of the Muslim world in, in Cairo, until the 1860s. So it's taken you know, er…a very long time for one of the, the critical variables um of modernity the, the, the beginnings of scientific thought, er and not just amongst intellectuals but sort of spread within the population at large. Em the, the, the, the access that ordinary people have to literacy and so forth - em, it's taken er a very long time for these er forces to become normative in the Islamic world. And I think one of the reasons for that has been the resistance of er traditional religious leaders in the past, whose own hegemonic influence and power would've been threatened by er the spread of literacy and education and so forth. (p11)

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Indonesia's constitution is built on something called "Panchesila" a collection of principles which recognise the role of religion in society, while quite deliberately avoiding any exclusive reference to Islam. If a distinctively Islamic form of democracy does emerge here it seems unlikely that it will be "secular" after the manner of those western democracies which consciously deny religion a place in public life. Professor Robert Hefner of the Centre on Religion and World Affairs at Boston University.

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A Yes I think you separate religion from politics, not by getting religious ethics out of politics, but by getting reli…separating religious and political authorities and making sure er, that the 2 don't meet, don't er fuse into one. And you do that from the democratic Muslim perspective because the fusion of those 2 authorities is the single greatest threat to the integrity of er high Muslim values of justice, of equity, and again for the democratic Muslims, er, er pluralism and, and er pluralism and freedom. Er so yes you get, you get religious authorities - you separate religious and political authorities, but you don't assume as some…western secularists would argue, you don't assume that religious values have no role in the public sphere. Instead you say they do have a role in the public sphere, but not in a role, not as instruments of governments and not as er, instruments to be wielded to coerce or to compel people to act in one way or another. In…instead, they become part of the general public dialogue that takes place in, in society, and in civil society. (p14)

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The prospects for success for those in Indonesia who are trying to work out a twenty-first century prototype for Islamic politics are, inevitably, tied up with the immediate threats to the democratic experiment there.

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A I think the battle the, the…I think in fact the violent Jihadis have played their hand, and though they may attempt and may actually pull off some additional incidents in the future, I think they overplayed their hands and, and in effect er dealt themselves out of the game, so to speak. I think the more serious struggle in Islam airing in Indonesia over the next years is not going to be between Jihadi extremists or armed Jihadi extremists and the civic democrats, but it's going to be between people er…people who want good government and an effective er democratic government and insiders who em, for reasons of corruption and personal enrichment, want to work the political system in another way. I don't, I think that's gonna be the primary battle in Indonesia. And it is a battle, unfortunately, which will have a, a er, a rather significant impact on the question of whether Indonesia is to serve as a model to other Muslim countries. (p14)

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There is pride in Indonesia that the battle over Islam's future has been joined here rather than in the faith's historic heartland - and a strong sense too of the burden of responsibility that brings. Azumardi Azra, president of the State Islamic University in Jakarta..

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A Of course there is a lot of er expectation that Indonesia is er successful with the experience with newly found democracy, er because it er…it can, could be an, a good example of how er compatibility er of the compatibility of Islam and democracy. If Indonesia fell I think (laughs) I don't know. Er, it's a, it's a, of course er, er it's a, it's a, it's a…it would strengthen the argument of certain Muslims that Islam indeed incompatible with, with democracy. So Indonesia is a good, a good, is a good case. Er, er especially doing after the fall of Suarto. Of course we have, we had er…implemented democracy since early days of independence. Even so, this is not genuine and real democracy er su…Sukarnos he say that he implemented what he call a panchesila democracy, er or not, er not panchesila democracy. Democracy, guided democracy - this is what er Sucarno implemented. Guided democracy - democracy that (??). And then Suarto implemented what he call it's a Panchesila democracy. Democracy based on Panchesila. But now er I think since the fall of Suarto, now we are experiencing, we are begin to implement er…what we expect to be a real and authentic and genuine democracy.
Q That means you've got a very heavy burden of responsibility, doesn't it? If, if what you say is right, the future of Islam could…
A Yeah
Q …depend on you getting it right here.
A Yeah, I think so, yeah it er, the Indonesian experience with democracy is very crucial. Er not only for us, but all, for all, for, for all other Muslim countries. Because if we can show that er democracy and Islam can sit together and we can ac…we can er implement democracy in a very successful way, I think again, Indonesia could be a, a good example of the, how democracy and Islam er can be er, y'know, can be er…implemented in, in a, in a democracy er system, political system (p7)

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My dalang, Aldi san-jiya, gave his shadow puppet show a happy ending with a contemporary twist - the heroine is rescued, and the hero rewarded with a plane ticket to London. It is not a bad metaphor for what Indonesia's Muslims are trying to do with their faith - reinterpreting the traditions of the past to meet the challenges of the future.

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