In the Footsteps of Jesus

India: Jesus the Guru - Monday 12 December 2005, 20:02 - 20:30 - Programme 4

Warning: This is a working script, not a transcript. It is for interest only and not reference and it will contain un-corrected material that does not appear in the final programme.

Opening PTC
The ancient port of Kranganore on the coast of Kerala was described by the Roman writer Pliny the Elder as 'The most important port in India.' And in the 1st century, the waters around me would've been crowded with ships trading in spices, exotic woods and gems. Today there are a couple of fishing boats checking their nets, a hundred yards or so across the sluggish-looking water that divides this point from the Peninsula nearest. But otherwise, apart from the crows, these creeks and inlets are empty and sleepy. But in the middle of this seductively green piece of rural India, there stands a monument of really quite startling European vulgarity. A scaled-down version of St Peter's in Rome, complete with colonnade topped off with life-sized saints, and a red and white chequered brick canteen and cool bar for the passing pilgrims. This is said to mark the spot at which St Thomas - Doubting Thomas that is - arrived to spread the Christian word in India in the year 52. And there's something particularly inappropriate about the piece of Roman kitsch which has been built here to commemorate the event, because Indian Christianity has developed an idea of Christ that is extremely distinctive and quite unlike anything to come out of the Roman Church.

Music

Script

The sound of a choir at evening service in an Indian chapel; "Let us sing songs to Jesus the Lord. Let us sing praises to his holy, beautiful name" is the translation; conventional enough as Christian sentiments, but they strike European ears exotically when rendered in Hindi.

This final journey in the footsteps of Jesus has brought me to that edgy place where the Jesus who is so much a part of our European culture meets new worlds and new cultures - where the belief that he has a message for all humanity is really tested.

India - with its mosaic of different belief systems - must have some kind of claim to be the richest religious culture in the world. And if you are a Christian from Kerala you would have every right to feel affronted by the idea that your faith is a European import. If the Doubting Thomas story is true the Church here is apostolic - much older than - say - the Church in Britain.

Along one wall of the shrine at Kranganore is a large mural depicting the scene as St Thomas comes a shore - My guide was Father Thomas Kulangara, a philosophy lecturer at the St. Mary's seminary in the state capital Trivandrum.

Clip
St Thomas must have come here with merchants who came for spice trade. And here, thanks to favourable wind, a ship er has come to the port and er, people of the locality are receiving him. And St Thomas is welcomed here, because the people were very open-minded. They accepted St Thomas, and some of them were converted to Christianity, and they came from the high caste families of this place.
Q I can see some of the young boys over here on the right with these white um dhotis, this skirt-like dress. But they also have a, a sort of thread across their chest. What's the significance of that?
A OK er the tradition is that the high caste people - men and boys, wore this sacred thread. That is a sign of their 2nd birth - the 1st birth is our natural birth from our mother's womb. The 2nd birth comes from knowledge. And this knowledge imposes on them as a sign, the sacred thread, which they wear throughout their lives. Only people of er a few high castes could wear it.
Q So St Thomas's 1st appeal was to as, as far as we know, was to high caste...
A Yes
Q ...people. Why is that?
A Er the families who welcomed St Thomas and they converted, were from the high caste. In those days, the caste system was not as rigid, but still was becoming rigid in the later years. So those who were converted to Christianity were 1st of all from the high caste. They were Nambouderis who were Brahmins, and Nayas, who were next to the Nambouderis - mostly children of Nambouderis born in other women.
Q And is it possible to um guess at what it was about the Jesus message that appealed to them?
A Well the mess of Jesus, the message of Jesus was appealing to them, but that must say did not actually er tell it, the social system of Kerola. People who were converted followed the Hindu tradition. They had the Christian faith, which they accepted from St Thomas, they followed their liturgical practices which er were Caldian, because the Christian community here was in er close association with the Caldian Church. And then their life was practically a Hindu life, therefore the social customs of Hindus.
Q And just to be clear about the way that Christianity became established here, there's the tradition of St. Thomas landing here. And then in slightly um better-known history, there were, were missionaries here in what, the 4th century or so from the Syrian Church who, who we know established the Christian Church. Is that roughly how it happened?
A Yes er, er most probably St Thomas had his own communities here, which were small. We believe that St Thomas founded 7 communities. The 1st one was founded here in Kranganore, or Kuringalore as we call it now. The next, the 2nd community was Parlayore - a place which you're going to visit now - then there were 5 more communities. And these communities remained here alive, but they were not aggressively missionary communities. They are peace-loving people, living like Hindus, amongst Hindus. But then in the early 5th century, there was a big migration from Syria. There was a group of people numbering around 350, which included priests, a bishop and many families. They came and settled down here. Er we don't know exactly why they came. They must have come for commercial purpose to a welcoming land. Also there might have been problems there and they had to come out of their land. They were accepted here. They lived here and continued to flourish - possible that they married Indians. And this community is called the Suddist, in the sense they preserve the pure blood of Syrians. Even now, they don't intermarry with other communities. They are now kept, they have preserved themselves as a separate ethnic community. Most of them are Catholics, but some of them are orthodox. So this community was more faithful in preserving some of the ancient customs of the Christians.
Q Can you characterise the way people would've seen Jesus at that early stage of Christianity in India?
A Well the message of Jesus was very clear because as far as the legends go, St Thomas presented a universal religion. A religion with God as a father and Jesus the son, who is the brother of all human beings. It's an imagination which goes beyond the traditionally divided caste framework of India. It was an appealing picture for them, because they said 'We have a father, we have, we are all brothers and sisters.' So it was an appealing religion and also it was a purifying religion because people here were of course er, er interwoven with many pa...er practices, practices which are not altogether beautiful, y'know?
Q Sorry, could you er...
A Superstitions...practices...
Q ...there were lots of superstitions around, and...
A Yes. Yes...
Q ...and this was something...
A Yes...yes.
Q ...that rose people, brought people above...
A Yes...yes.
Q ...that. And even though you say most of those who were converted were high caste, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that part of the appeal of the Jesus message was that it took you beyond the caste system.
A Well er in mind, they're honest citizens. But they could not make a breakthrough in the social fabric, probably because that caste system of that time did not allow them to do so. But the real breakthrough of Christianity came after the Portuguese arrival, where the message was taken directly to the low caste, by missionaries. And at the moment er...the majority of the Christians in India are from the tribals and dhalits, and it has proved to be a message of liberation for them now.
Q Can I ask you one more question about that early period before, before we move on to later developments? In the western Church, there were all sorts of debates going on at that period about the divinity of Christ - discussions about heresies and so forth. Was that happening too, here too, or did that sort of essentially b...bypass the Indian Church?
A The truth is that there was a big propaganda going on in the West. After the 19...er after the 15...no 1659 Synod of Diampore...OK I'll correct myself the date of the events... (Discussion).
Q I...I'm thinking right back in the, in the, the 3rd and 4th centuries when you had the Council of Nicea for example, going on in the West. Was anything like that happening here?
A OK. The liturgical texts of this Church were all brought from Kaldia. In the Kaldian Church...some of their texts were affected by the Christological controversies. Doubtful formulas and expressions were present in the liturgical texts. But the Kaldian Church being outside the Roman Empire was not directly part of the Christological debate. This church believed the unity or the person of Jesus was a divine person, and they believed in Mary, who was vener...venerated as the Mother of God. The title 'Theodocus' - the Mother of God was a saving, Christological formula upholding the divinity of Christ. So the Kaldian Church always believed in the unity of the Christian, or unity of the personality of Christ, and in His divinity. But due to some influences, there were erroneous formulas trapped into their liturgy, and the liturgical texts brought from Kaldia to Kerola contained the same errors. But the people in Kerola never knew the meaning of any of these things. It was not their concern, there were no theological development here. The Church was consisting of simple-minded people, preserving their simple faith in Jesus, and living a life culturally in harmony with the people of the land. So they had no interest in the Christological debates.
Q So what would Jesus have meant to them? I know...what would Jesus have meant to them?
A Jesus meant for them a living person - not formulas. And Jesus stood in stark contrast with the rela...with er the existing God figures of the land. And in fact, this God figure Jesus influenced Hinduism and the later developments of the legends concerning Krishnas, Dharma, etc. These 2 gods were not really divinities in the vedic times. These 2 figures were developed into the greatest gods - the later pranas - possibly according to some others that are influences of the Christ figure in the development of the figures of Dharma and Krishna. But Christ was a very sober figure for them, so they accepted Christ and lived.
Q And if St Thomas turned up as it's believed he did here, and said 'I'm asking you to believe in the religion of a god who is made man,' what would that have meant to people?
A Well a god made man was a new idea here. And the stories of incarnation were s...slowly developing in Hinduism. But a radical form of incarnation as taught in Christianity never existed in India. A god who is flesh, who has taken flesh, who can feel with the people, who is compassionate with the weakness of human beings, this was a novelty. TK p1

(NOTE Mike we'll need to insert this earlier in to the IV)
Why was it that the 1st people who found the Thomas message appealing were upper caste, were Brahmins?
A Probably...the people who were in contact with the traders who came from abroad were prominent people - rich people of the land - who were great merchants, having access to royal power. So St Thomas came with the merchants from abroad and he was associated with the people whom they met. And the lower caste people were never on the scene. They were far away, they had no access - the social discrimination became stronger later - but even in the 1st century AD it existed.

Script

Sadly there are no early written records to support the Thomas tradition - one would love to know what he thought of the way the peasant preacher he had known in Galilee became an object of veneration among the rich of this far-off shore. Later generations of Christians were granted aristocratic privileges by Kerala's king - they could be carried in a palanquin and build porches on their houses.

Over the centuries Christianity in all sorts of foreign forms washed over here - Syriac bishops came with their ancient Aramaic rites, Catholic Portuguese traders with their proselytising priests - and of course amiable Anglican vicars following the footsteps of imperial ambition.

A century ago people began to think seriously about how Indians could follow Jesus in a way that would be viewed as authentically Indian. The movement acquired the rather clunky name of "inculturation", and really took off in the second half of the twentieth century - after Indian independence and the new theological ideas of the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s. India had an off-the shelf institution readily available to its followers - the ashram. Sebastian Painadath is a Jesuit priest in Kerala.

Clip
The word 'Ashrama' in Sanskrit means 'Holistic pursuit - total search.' Er, total search for truth, for beauty, for a God experience. So this is the basic meaning of the word 'Ashrama'. Ashrams have been existing in India already 1500 years before Christ - in fact, the great spiritual and social reform movements in India originated in great Ashrams. So Ashram is not a place of withdrawal to oneself, but em, a place where people develop a holistic approach to life. Ashrams were also the places where princes were educated in India in martial arts. Er farmers were introduced to forms of cultivation, students were educated. And so 'Ashram' is a very broad-based concept.
Q It sounds a little like em what in Western Christianity would be called a monastery.
A Very much so, very much like the monasteries, we can say - yes. Yes.
Q And is it fair to say that Benedictinism has been a very significant element um particularly through Bede Griffiths in the way the Christian Ashram Movement has developed?
A That is also perhaps the reason why a Benedictine like Dom Lesau and er Bede Griffiths, with, they had Benedictine background, felt very much attracted to the Indian Ashram heritage.
Q But it's distinctive. Can you explain what, what is er distinctively Indian about the Christian Ashram, as opposed to a monastery?
A Well em, one of the, some of the characteristics of the Indian Ashram Movement er, some of, some of the characteristics of the Indian Ashram Movement are the following. Er simplicity of life, closeness to nature, closeness to people - and above all openness to all religions and cultures - as with the castes. What is significant is that er...in a, to an Ashram, people of all castes could come. So in a way, an authentic Ashram em presents a counter culture against the caste domination.
Q And is that why it chimes so well with the Christian message in India?
A That's right. That's why Ashram er could also become later a place where the Christian message could very well be inculturated, yes.
Q What happens to the Indian Church's understanding of Jesus - of who He was and what He meant in the process of inculturation?
A I want to mention just 2 things in the way we perceive the person and mystery of Jesus Christ. The 1st thing is that em in our western, traditional understanding of Jesus, the person of Jesus is very much er objectified. He's the Lord, the Saviour, the great, divine Tao whom we worship in liturgy for instance, whom we listen to as the great saviour and teacher. So the dominant relationship with Jesus in a traditional Christianity is an 'I - Tao' relationship. When we come to the (vedanda?) mystical traditions of India and try to develop a, a, a reflection on the mystery of Christ, then we have another access to the, to the experience of Christ. Christ becomes much more the divine subject of our being, more than object. In other words, He is not somebody before you whom you worship, but much more, He is the presence of the divine within you, or you are, you are self-written Christ. (Mutters).
Q (Discussion). (Tape cuts here).
A Reflecting on the mystery of Christ em, in India we could perhaps focus on 2 aspects. The 1st is that Jesus Christ the sub-divine subject of our being more than an object of worship. This becomes very clear when we compare the traditional, western, Christian em understanding of Jesus Christ which emphasises then 'I - Tao' relationship and the Indian vedandic approach where an 'I -I' relationship. In oth...in other words er, er Christ is my true self within me - this is the vedandic Christology.
Q Mm-hm. You are a Jesuit priest, and you've studied theology. Do you think it's possible to match the kind of Jesus that you've just described with the traditional, western Jesus?
A Well that is a great challenge we have to take up, because I'm convinced that if we have to present the message of Jesus Christ in a very powerful way, effective way in India, we have to er get in touch with the mystical traditions of India. And the mystical tradition of India demands that er, we experience Christ much more as the subject of our being than er, in mere rituals. Em f...in, in our, even in our Christian tradition, there was a, a, an insight on 'divinisation of the human' - diocese. SP p2

Worship Act (to run under script and clips plus gets bell)

Clip
We get up at er 3.45 er there's a bell at 3.30 actually - I'm not - I'm sorry. We get up at 3.30, em, there's a bell at 3.30. And then we have to y'know wash our, y'know ourselves or brush our teeth or whatever. And there is a prayer at er 3.45, which begins at 3.45 and goes on till about 5 o'clock, which is called the 'night vigil'.

Script

Kurisumala means the hill of the cross. Brother Augustine is one of 20 Cistercian monks in the ashram here - the Cistercian order was founded at the turn of the twelfth century in Burgundy by Benedictines who didn't think the rule of St Benedict was quite austere enough.

Clip
Er we have er prayers er which are chanted by 2 sides alternately, er left and right sides. Er the community is divided into 2 sides, and one side chants a particular passage, then the other. So we have a book, prayer book from which we do the chanting. Er, so this goes on for about er an hour and a quarter. So at 5 o'clock er this night vigil is over. From 5 to 6 we have an hour of er personal prayer and meditation. (Sniff) Er earlier, there used to be some of the members of the community who used to do yoga (sniff). Er at the moment, there are no serious practitioners, because those people have, are dead now. But some of them do, do a bit of exercises in the stretching and things in their room, er and it's time for Bible reading and personal reflection also. Er at 6 o'clock, we have the Mass er in the Indian rite er which is called the 'paratia buja', which means 'Indian er mmm worship' I'd say. Er it's not an official er y'know kind of er...celebration er like the y'know, because we have 3 official rites in Kerola. The 'siero malaba'; the 'siero malancala' and the Latin rite. This er has, was y'know put together by the seminarians in er the Tamaram College, Bangalore er y...as a response to the y'know the exhortation of the Vatican 2 to Indianise or to inculturate the liturgy. Er well the thing is, after those experiments began, those were discontinued. But here in the monastery, we are continuing at the moment. Er because er these are the places we suppose, where at least er some experiments could be done. Because for the larger public doesn't come here - it's for the community and for the, the retreatants who stay with us. Er it (add ups) er y'know symbols and em, y'know s...even some portions of er scriptures, er we can, we can say those are used for the prayers but y'know the way er Hindus worship er is very nature-oriented, y'know? They use elements from nature to worship, and it's very symbolic. Er maybe I, I show you the text er with the notes which will be useful to you maybe y'know, as part of the thing. Er it lasts about 45 minutes, it's followed by breakfast, and that would be over by around 7.15, 7.30. So then from that time for 1 hour it's again time for what we call 'lexio divina' - spiritual reading which is supposed to lead to prayer (sniff). At 08.30 there is a bell for the work. 8.30 to 10.45 it's time for manual work, er as I said earlier, y'know some of the, most of the members have some work er y'know manual, which they do manually in the kitchen, in the farm, in the vegetable garden. But some of us have to do something in the monastery. Part of the, running the house, basically. Er at 10.45 there is another bell to y'know it, (laughs) it's all timed by bells. Er from 10.45 to 11.15 er for most of the other members of the community, it's a reading and senior members of course - they have to attend to their duties, which are permanent duties usually. At 11.15 for the juniors we have a class 12.00 o'clock er various subjects of monastic spirituality - sometimes English, sometimes work from the Bible or from the, something from the liturgy. Er it will look like we have what we call 'the prayer for the sixth star.' Er it's for about 10, 15 minutes - short prayer followed by lunch and a siesta from...er about 12.45 to 2.15 or so. At 2.15 again, there's a short prayer which is called 'the prayer for the ninth hour.' Again it lasts for 10, 15 minutes. Er at 3 o'clock er we have tea, followed immediately by work till 5.30. From 5.30 to 6.30 is again y'know, time to...y'know get yourself together, have a bath if you want and get ready for prayer. Er evening prayer is at 6.30 er which goes on till around 7 o'clock, followed by supper. At 8 o'clock we have what we call the 'sutsung' - maybe you will see it tonight. Er it's a gathering of er it leads er, it means, 'sutsung' - a gathering of er good people. Er because it's er in the Indian spiritual tradition, they say one of the ways er in which you can draw close to God is through contact with nice people (laughs).

Script

Many aspects of life here would have seemed familiar to medieval monks living anywhere from Montecassino in Italy to, say, Fountains Abbey in North Yorkshire. There's something about the simplicity of the place which evokes school book images of what monastic life was like in this country before monasteries became rich and powerful and attracted the unwelcome attention of Henry VIII - the monastic flower garden even seems oddly English with its azaleas, fuchias and roses.

But the images of Jesus about the place bring you up short - he's dressed in a saffron-coloured robe and he's sitting in the lotus position, very much Jesus the guru. And early morning mass is celebrated according to the Hindu rite - incorporating some of the elements of an alien faith in this quintessentially Christian sacrament.

Act
Mass

Clip
Brother Augustine's voice over

Script

Father Sebastian Painadath is one of those who has developed the theology which underpins this kind of experiment.

Clip
In our Christian tradition, liturgy is understood primarily as a communitarian event. A Christian community comes together and worships in a particular form. In Hindu tradition, liturgy is a cosmic event. That means not so much the community, but the individual, or a small community, through the liturgical performance resonates with er God's presence in nature. Therefore in Hindu rituals, they bring to er the temple the 5 elements of nature - earth, water, fire, air and em space. So earth in the form of fruits, water very much used, light will be lit. Air in the form of em incense sticks and er the space element is brought in too, by ringing the bell. So if you go to a, a Hindu or a Buddhist temple, you can find that er somehow the whole universe is, is made present there, hm? So people enter into the cosmic presence of the Lord. Using this em, er perspective, we in India try to develop er inculturated forms of the Eucharist. SP p9

Script

Anyone who has visited India will know the sense of claustrophobia which can overwhelm you from time to time in the press of its great cities. Kurisumala really is a place apart - 3,500 fee above sea level, and set amid scenery a little like that of the Lake District or the Yorkshire Dales. Brother Augustine led me through a meadow of lush grass to the so-called meditation rock. Father Francis, the Belgian Cistercian who founded the ashram with the help of the English Benedictine Bede Griffiths, used to sit here and watch the mountains marching towards the horizon through shrouds of cloud. Today all the monks are Indians. Brother Augustine gave up his life as an engineer in Bombay to come here 8 years ago.

Clip (ES NOTE I'll cut this back so we lose the details about its founding, how the land was given them, so it really concentrates on how Jesus is universal)

I must say, driving up here and seeing those dry stone walls on the way, and those very green fields, it was almost as if we were back in England at times. But...
A Oh, oh, oh yeah, yeah.
Q ...standing up here now, we can know we're very much not. We're looking at it - it's an absolutely spectacular view across the mountains, stretching away into the distance. What are we looking down on here?
A Er you see what, what you see over there is the road y'know it winds up from Identa Bitar to Agamon, er those (??) are coming. Em and over there, you see the church er in a place called Veliculum.
Q That's just that building...
A that, that building...
Q ...just perched on...
A ...perched on...
Q ...the top of the hill over there?
A Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And er over there y'know er right at the horizon, what you see er, er like er, like a fort er it's called Iliki Cala. Ca...
Q That's, that's just poking up above the clouds...
A Yeah above...
Q ...in the distance.
A ...the clouds. Er, like a fort. Er it's a famous landmark (laughs). Er Cala is for melialamfor stone. Ilikel er must be, I mean I think it's associated with the name of the place. Anyhow it's called Iliki Cala (laughs) so er y'know occasionally when we come here, you can see that. And there are some other places which y'know, only when the weather is clear, you can see. There is a famous place called Animouli...Animouli. It means the head of a, an elephant, er it was just supposed to be the tallest peak, if I'm not mistaken, in South India or something.
Q It, it's sunset now, but on er on a clear day in, in, in um in daylight, can you see beyond the hills to the sea, which must be somewhere over there in that direction?
A Yeah, yeah, yeah er, when it's very clear you can see the backwaters. Er Wembanard er backwaters and beyond that you can see a straight line which is the Arabian Sea. But it's, it has to be very, very clear - I mean maybe sometimes after a ra...after a rainy day you can see that.
Q It's quite a place for a monastery. How did it come to be here?
A Oh well it's a long story (laughs). Er our founder, Father Francis, er he was a Belgian. Er he was a Cistercian. Em, actually he was studying in England er he's studying in English, er studying English - he's Belgian you see - English is a foreign language for him. At that time, Mahatma Gandhi y'know the Father of er the Nation, he was there to attend a 2nd a round table conference. And er he was y'know a man of, er during an interview er actually Father Francis said what struck him was the, y'know the transparency, the, the spirituality of the man, his er commitment to his personal values. Er you must have heard the, the famous er nickname er which Sir Winston Churchill gave to Fa...Mahatma Gandhi - the 'half naked fakir'. (Laughs) Er so, because he went to the Buckingham Palace in his dhoti, half naked. But he was y'know willing to do that, and he was strong enough to do that, even though people didn't like that a little, er y'know that much. Er so he was attracted to India from that moment, he said. Er but er it was a far off dream he said 'I was a rather dissatisfied student, like most students are,' y'know - I am quoting him. Er but er this er, this encounter - I mean he didn't meet him actually. He came to know about him from the papers. It was a big sensation actually. Er so this incident, he says struck a spark er within him, and broke through his em, dissatisfaction, and leading him to some search, that's what he was saying. Em, after a couple of years he served in the Belgian army and then he joined a Cistercian community er in, it's name is Our Lady of Skumar, Skumar in Belgium. Em and the p...why he joined the community was that he wanted er he learned that they were planning to establish a foundation in India. So he wanted to come to India particularly, so he joined. And then he, y'know did his studies as the usual stuff he was sent to Rome to do studies in philosophy and theology. No, actually he did theology in Rome. He studied Indian philosophy, Tamil, Sanskrit and er all those things in Sorbonne University, Paris. So he was ordained, but by the time y'know it came, came round to the foundation, the community decided that er they would go for, they wanted to establish the community in er Belgian Congo in Africa. So Father Francis was very much disappointed. But he y'know kept on y'know pressing his Abbot. Ultimately he said er 'If you're so keen er you can try it yourself. It's not going to be an official thing. But he was y'know very...mm, what d'you, what d'you say - he was er convinced er that it was a c...call from God. Because er well it's er more to do with spiritual direction and things like that. His spiritual director, y'know er was...wasn't who told him clearly that he, this is a call er, a genuine call. Because Cistercians have vows of er stability and fidelity to the monastic way of life, and obedience. Stability means wherever you join, you are supposed to stay till your death. And...naturally some of the members must have thought that there's something wrong with the stability, because he's not stable in the community. Ultimately, y'know he set out like er Mother Theresa in one sense, because he had just er a few Mass offerings as money and er his determination and his faith in God. He came to India in 1958. I am s...I am sorry - er in 1955. So he travelled all over India to y'know assimilate what the Indian culture had to offer to western monasticism. Because monastic life is something common to er Hinduism and Christianity and em some of the thinkers before him in monastic circles, er they had this idea that monastic life would be a kind of meeting point between Hinduism and Christianity. Because er Indians consider a religious person or a holy person to be a monk, basically - a senyarsi as er, as it's called in India - a man of renunciation, who lives a simple life. Er he gives up the world for to say er y'know, to search for the ultimate, to experience. Er they're not very impressed by big buildings and projects and hospitals and schools and that kind of thing which er Christian missionaries were doing at that time. Er in one meeting er between the Hindus and the Christian missionaries er this is what they actually said er to the bishops and er y'know religious er heads. That er 'We appreciate your work - your hospitals, your schools, your social work. But er if we want to have some advice in spiritual matters, we go straight to our gurus (laughs).' Because er that's not something er which er Christians can offer fel...they felt. But monks y'know are here in the Christian tradition, monks are people of er, of renunciation of simple life er, and people who genuinely see God. So that's why y'know, monasticism was considered to be a sort of meeting point. So he travelled all over India to try to understand what er Hinduism er is all about here. Especially the mona...the monks, the senyarsis. So he travelled from north to south er y'know staying in most of the major Hindu monasteries, or Ashrams, as they're called. And then he came and stayed for a year at a place called Sechidenanda Ashram - Shanti Wanamas, it is called in Tamil Nadu - er which was founded by 2 Frenchmen. Er I remember the pronunciation is like this called er Jul Moshannay and er Henri Lasau - they are the founders. Their Indian names are Swami Paramaru Byanander and er, er Swami Bashiktanander respectively. Er they were y'know, great intellectuals but they were Benedictines. One of them, the Swami Bashiktanander was a Benedictine, the other one was a missionary priest. So they had come to India for the same purpose, y'know? To establish a community, a monastery which is truly Indian, and er truly Christian. Er so Father Francis w...knew one of them before he came to India. So he came, stayed with them for a year, and er at a stage during his stay, er he came to Kerola for something. And a bishop of the Sero Malankara rite in Kerola - it's a er, it's a new Catholic er...er church er which was reunited with the, er y'know the Latin church or the Catholic Church - official Catholic Church - in 1930. It was begun by a, by a bishop from the Jacobite tradition. So he reunited with the Catholic Church, and from then it was known as the Sero Malankara Catholic Church. So er we have a diocese in Tidwalla. The bishop of Tidwalla actually invited Father Francis - 'Why don't you establish a monastery in my diocese?' And so that's how a Christian (??) came to be y'know? And he stayed near the bishop's house for a time as an experimental y'know way of living the monastic life. And during that time a Benedictine from England - Father Bede Griffiths - I am sure you n...you have heard of him - er he, he w...he went, he was also planning to make a foundation in India, but his em y'know establishment in, in Bangalore, it failed to take off. So he wrote, he came to know about Father Francis, he wrote to him, saying 'You might find it difficult to establish a community on your own,' er if not impossible. So I'm ready to help if you, if you think it's OK.' So he invited him over, they had discussions and ultimately they, Father Francis was a c...a founder Father Bede er was a co-founder and there were a couple of other brothers. And they began in 1958 er here on a mountain top in um September - no I'm sorry in March 21st. That was the official date of establishment and it was y'know consecrated on September 14th the same year.
Q And they were given the land, is that right?
A Yeah er this land was...(discussion).
Q And how did er the land get given to the monastery?
A Um this, this area where we are, er it is owned by a landlord called er Thomas Patankulum. He was a big landlord big, big person actually. So he offered this land - 88 acres - free actually in the beginning. Later we bought some from him er, so that's how we began. But er the, y'know initially the whole place was just basically rock and grass and nothing more than that. It was not very cultivable, y'know? And Father Francis and Father Bede y'know started thinking about y'know have to make a living in a place where only grass would grow, and naturally they thought about cows (laughs). So they wrote to y'know Skumar, y'know Father Francis' old monastery, and they send a couple of er bulls and cows. I'm not sure of the, about the number (laughs). So that's how it started er and er em, Father Francis got in touch er with the local authorities, and they said er the standard of cows in India, y'know - it's very low. There are lots of cows, but er the milk production is quite low. And there was a programme being launched to raise the quality, the standard. So as part of the programme er Father Francis was told that if he import er, y'know a good quality Jersey bull or something, er y'know, we would be given the status of a local em, local centre or something with a veterinarian in charge and things like that. So they got the bull and so that's how it got started.
Q And he used to come here, you said and, and sit on the rock behind us...
A Yeah...
Q ...the Meditation Rock, and look out over the scene?
A Well yeah - no just look over the scene I suppose. But y'know er for a monk, nature is supposed to be em...a way in which God communicates with man. And y'know the scene er, y'know automatically raises the mind er to the Creator. Er so he used to meditate here, come and, coming and sitting on the rock.
Q Still quite a tough life. I mean I notice you're wearing b...well not wearing any shoes at all - you're in bare feet - and we've just walked across some pretty rocky paths, through a rough field, over some rocks. Um it is tough isn't it?
A Um in 1 sense yes, um but y'know er when you say something is difficult, it's I suppose a, and y'know something to do with the mind. Er when you believe that er God has called you to this place to live in this place er, you also believe that He gives you the grace er the strength, er the capacity er to adapt to this way of life. And I've heard people saying, y'know guests of course - saying 'That is a beautiful place, it's nice,' and all that. But er I can't...can't imagine staying here for more than a week (laughs). So er I told him y'know, my dear friend er y'know for, for me, life in the world y'know so-called er is not so easy. Y'know, it's not for me I feel. Er and for me, that life is difficult. For you, that life is OK. But you feel that this is impossible. So, which means that God has called you to that way of life and I have been called to this way of life.' So when you believe that, I suppose this er what so-called hardships er...it's not too much I suppose.
Q What brought you here?
A Mm, I was working in Bombay for 3 years - I'm an engineer - er, er...er one could say I'm er borrowing the words of another monk (laughing) who joined er Genesia - a monastery in, in the US. Er he said er I, 'It was a job for which I had neither the stomach nor the aptitude' (laughs) so er that was one, it was part of it. Er but er, it's more than that I suppose, because either it's just the job er which you find er that you can't get along with. Er you won't persevere in the monastery if it's, if it's just er for that, that you came to the monastery. Er basically er it is to seek God because in a community, in the Benedictine tradition er what is a monastic carism, I mean er if that question is asked the, the simple answer is to seek God. Er the monks' carism is to seek God. Though God has revealed Himself to man through His world and through nature as I said earlier er it's not that He is, er He's, can be completely understood by people y'know, just by looking at His world and nature. It's an ongoing y'know process. And to seek Him to means...er means to know Him, to enter into a personal relationship with Him. I used to be a, y'know kind of er bit of a, er...dissolute person y'know when I was er y'know I was studying and I was er was er working. Er or no - before I was working actually, when I was studying. But er providentially I had an experience of conversion er to Christ, and er, my priorities changed. Y'know till then it was basically what I wanted to live and what I wanted to do. It was, I mean I was not bothered about y'know values or...y'know moral issues and things like that. But once I came to that kind of a change, it changed my priorities upside down. And from then on er...a life of er closeness to God became a top priority. But when I went to Bombay I found that y'know, talking about prior...er values and moral issues, of wanting y'know, putting them into practice, er I r...quite, it's quite (laughs) a different issue basically. And I couldn't manage to do those things together. It was like y'know water and oil (laughs) and they wouldn't mix. So in one sense er the world, (laughs) it didn't, y'know couldn't offer what I wanted, and I couldn't offer it what it wanted, so we parted ways (laughs) in a sense. Er I joined in 1997.
Q You said...sorry (discussion). You said you had a personal experience of Christ...
A Yes, yes.
Q ...and I was interested that in the monastery, most of the pictures of Jesus are in the form of er, of, of a figure, a teacher in the lotus position.
A Yeah
Q I...is that how you experience Christ?
A Er well that's a bit of an abstract question (laughs). Em...I yeah...
Q Well let me put it a simpler way.
A Yeah.
Q I mean is, is that, is that, does that, do those pictures express the way people here see Jesus?
A Well I think, I should think so, because basically er Jesus was a teacher y'know in the Gospels it is quite clear that y'know er He was a teacher and er, we see in many places that He taught with authority. Er and He was, er and it's said that er, er the way He teaches is not like the Jewish Rabbis. Er He teaches with authority. So er, y'know I have read a book by a Hindu convert er who converted to Catholicism. Er he says er Jesus is the perfect guru, huh, the perfect teacher. Because most of the, er the teachers in other er religious traditions, they are good teachers, they have taught a lot of things about God. But Jesus is the one who revealed God in the most perfect sense er, or thought about God in the most perfect sense. In, in India y'know the guru is often considered er y'know to be at par with God in, in one sense by the Hindus. They consider, give him a, such a high position y'know in their life. Er and also the parents, y'know in Hinduism er in er, Oh I think it's Sanskrit, I'm not sure. Er there's a saying 'mata pita guru debum.' It means 'mother,' pita means father - 'mother and father' - 'guru' is teacher, 'debum' is God. So they are y'know considered at par. So Jesus er as a guru, I suppose y'know He teaches not by y'know er now, not...now (laughs) now that He is er risen and er He is er He is in heaven, it's not that teach er y'know speaks to you directly through voices, or that kind of a thing. Of course, there are people who have had that experience. But He teaches through y'know daily y'know experiences. Er contacts with people, and of course through His word. When you read it, y'know, you feel that He's talking to you in a special sense in that part...on that particular day, even though you have read it er hundreds of times, maybe, on other days. You feel that He's speaking to you something for today, through that words er, y'know that particular words. So that is one way, and of course y'know there are brothers with whom you live. And er there are some occasions when we feel that we are, this is not this person speaking (laughs). It is y'know, coming from somewhere else. Er...I'm learning something from him, but it's coming from Jesus. Er and of course, when you are in the church during prayer, He can speak to your heart, y'know when you are trying to establish er a contact with Him through meditation, through prayer, er you get y'know , some flashes of inspiration occasionally er which we believe, y'know it's, it's something w...to be discerned. It's not (laughs) that you get er, a lot of stray thoughts which come from here and there er all those, n...not be from God directly. But of course there are some moments when you know, y'know beyond doubt that this is from Him and not from anywhere else. Er your mind or some other y'know, source. So y'know Jesus as a guru is er y'know, not very easy to y'know, express in one sense. But I suppose er what I have said really g...makes some sense.
Q Er you explained it very well. Um and you said He d...He t...teaches not like a Jewish Rabbi - but of course He was a Jewish teacher.
A Yeah, yeah.
Q What d'you make of that and, and does that, does that affect the way you see Him?
A Em, y'know the way er y'know he, when it's mentioned that He doesn't teach like the Jewish Rabbis er what they mean there is that y'know, a Jewish Rabbi, he always quotes, y'know he has sources er the Talmud the, the Old Testament, the Pendatoc, as it's called. The hol...the, the Holy Scripture as far as er a Jew is concerned. So he never speaks in his own name, er a Jewish er Rabbi. Who says most (??). And it says in the, this book that this and this has to be done, this and this has not to be done. But Jesus' way of speaking was quite different. He used to say 'I,' y'know, 'This er, the Bible says, or I mean the, the, the law and the prophets say such and such things. But I say to you this and this.' So He speak, spoke on His own authority - that's why they were saying His te...His way of teaching is different from the Jewish Rabbis. He never, y'know He does quote the, the law and prophets. But er He, His speciality is y'know from Him. He says 'I tell you this'. The Jewish Rabbi would never say that.
Q So what's important to you is not the fact the He speaks w...from within the Jewish tradition. It's those occasions when He goes beyond it and, and addresses people with a universal message?
A You could say that. Because er, Jesus did not come just to save the Jews or, y'know Christians (laughs) in one sense. Er His message is always for the whole er the whole world and it is quite clearly mentioned that er I didn't, that He didn't come er just for a particular group of people. Because 1 thing nobody can deny is that er every human person is a child of God er whether he accepts that or not (laughs). Er so er when Jesus gives a message, it's for all er and that's valid for a Christian, for a Hindu, for a Muslim. Er and it's, it's a matter of belief basically, of, of faith. I'm not sure whether everybody would er c...agree there on that point. But er His message is for all. MB p4

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Well, choice of time and place is always a limited choice.

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Fr Sebastian Painadath

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That Jesus was born in a particular time in a particular place, in a particular family, is a limited experience, and we Christians believe in that. However, this limited event has a universal significance and that also we believe - Christ Jesus saviour of humanity. I think we should er, er look at that, that universal meaning of Christ. So what we discover in faith in Jesus Christ is the embodied expression of the presence of God everywhere. It is not just the descent of God from another world to our world, but the unfolding of the divine world from within the cosmos. Er I think we can interpret it this way in the light of John's Gospel, because at the beginning of John's Gospel it is said 'In the beginning was the Word,' and everything has been created through the Word. Nothing has been created except through the Word. The Word was in the world, and the Word in, in the Word was life and light and all that y'know? So the Word is like er, mm, like butter in milk. This is a Hindu image. God's presence is imminent in this universe. This imminent presence of the divine embodied itself in a concrete child, in Bethlehem. This is what we Christians believe. My Hindu friend would say that this divine presence embodied itself in Krishna - this is the Hindu belief. And I have no difficulty to respect that. And that is where a dialogue takes place.
Q You've chosen St John's Gospel and a very mystical passage of St John's Gospel. A lot of the material in the other Gospels of course, is of course the story of a 1st century Galilean preacher - some would say a revolutionary - living in a very specific set of political circumstances under Roman occupation. Are you in danger of forgetting that side of Jesus, if you concentrate simply on the mystical side? I know that er, if we concentrate only on the mystical side there is a one sided-ness. There is the other so-called prophetic element in Jesus and I think that er the prophetic message of Jesus, His preaching of the kingdom of God and God's justice, it has a tremendous value for our country today.
Q Does the historical Jesus matter very much to you as a figure, or is that a secondary consideration?
A Historical Jesus is the person in whom or through whom we recognise that God is with us - Emmanuel - that God is with us. But our faith, it should not be fixated on a historical person who lived 2,000 years ago - that is not Christian faith. We believe in Christ who is present here. I think that is the message of er the Resurrection. We don't believe in somebody who lived 2,000 years ago, died and gone - but somebody who lives even today and unfolds their divine presence unto us.
Q So some of the, the arguments that scholars, Biblical scholars engage in about how many times Jesus went to Jerusalem, or how He thought about His own mission and His own divinity and so forth - those to you are largely irrelevant?
A Very much irrelevant questions. For me the basic, main question is what does faith in Christ today mean to me and to my people here and now? SP p4

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That approach has exposed a tension between two of Christianity's big ideas about Jesus - the belief that he's a universal figure with a message for all humanity, and the equally important conviction that he is unique and offers a privileged path to salvation. The eagle-eyed guardians of theological orthodoxy in the Vatican have spotted where ideas like Fr Sebastian's might lead, and they have been warning against what is known as "indifferentism", the idea that all religions are equally valid. It was a particular preoccupation of Pope Benedict's when he was working in his previous job as the Vatican's chief theological enforcer.

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I think there's a lot of pressure coming from Rome, em but here in India we do not feel it so much perhaps in days far away from Rome. Er however, I can understand that the present Pope with his theological and cultural background, will find it difficult to understand many perspectives which we Indian theologians are developing. I can, I can understand if he has problems with us, yeah. But Church is greater than the Pope, no, mm-hm?
Q D'you think his Jesus is your Jesus?
A (Laughs) Maybe his understanding of the person of Jesus may not be the same as many Christian theologians or faithful in India may love to develop. But we cannot proclaim one understanding of Jesus Christ, or one Christology shaped by a particular culture to be the norm for universal Christology. Jesus Christ is a mystery, and in the early Church for at least 3 centuries, there were different Christologies. So, which cannot make er the, the Roman, Middle European Christology...to be the norm for all Christologies all over the world.

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In last week's programme I was in Rome reporting on the way different ideas about Jesus have been reflected in the way he is represented in art. India's artists have also developed their distinctive Jesus images - Johti Sahi is a leading Indian artist in the field.

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The main interest was em to try and think of, of er Christ in relationship to the classical tradition of India that was um, er, we call it the Great Tradition. And that would em, er bring er brought me into contact with um images for example of, of the dancer k...em, esh, er in, in Indian iconography. Especially in South India, er God is represented as a dancer - the Natarajah for example. And so I em...realised that er, there, there had been a tradition in the early Church er, as described for example in the Acts of John, which belongs to about the 2nd century er AD that er, Christ was thought of as a dancer. And so I er...used this idea of Christ and, and His life as a dance, er thinking about this image of, both of Shiva as a dancer, but also as Krishna as a dancer. But em, er later on, in, in the '80s, there was a strong movement in the Indian Church away from this classical tradition. This was partly because many Indian Christians come from a background which, which er is not of the high caste er, er...tradition. Maybe more what we call the dhalit - that is the community who...felt outcast from this um classical tradition, er Brahmanic or Sanskritic, em or tribal. And er, but I felt that em even here the whole idea of the sacred dance, particularly in the tribal context was er meaningful. And I started working on the image of Jesus as er relating more to the tribal background. JS p1

Um but one of the difficulties even then was that er, that form of Christianity was not very appealing to em the majority of Indian Christians, who felt that er they had become Christians em, because they wanted to get away from the er Hindu er...dominant culture. They had felt er somehow alienated from it. And er, and the whole Ashram movement er which goes back to actually, even earlier to the '20s, was perceived as em, only answering to the needs of those Indian Christians who came from er, were converted from a more high caste background. Er this to begin with was not a question which er either Abishik Danander or Father Bede were, were concerned with. They felt that the Brahmanic tradition of India was the great tradition and er, and equated it with er, with a similar great tradition in, in Greek and Roman er, er society. It was only in the '80s when er, when the dhalit and the tribal movements in India became much more articulate, and especially in the Church, that em, there was er, er this em problem of a high caste em...link with Christianity er through Sanskritic culture. Er was, was voiced and, and er opposed. Er, er, er and, and then er as a result of that er you will find in India that er most Indian Christians are, are very critical of this tendency. This has been a problem since em, er particularly in the '90s, since the rise of er, a kind of political nationalism er with the BJP. Which er, which claimed that em, Christianity was a foreign religion, and should em, er become Hindui-sed. Which Christians as well as em, er Muslims er violently reacted against.
Q So there was a rather ambiguous attitude within the Indian Church...
A Hmm
Q ...to the, the linking of, of Christianity and the understanding of Christianity through Hindu tradition.
A Yes. And this has very much affected my work. JS p4

Act Prayers at Palayoor (check)

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This roadside evening service is taking place at Palayoor - which is said to be one of the original Christian communities established by St Thomas. The Portuguese missionaries found a church of great if uncertain antiquity standing here when they arrived in the sixteenth century, and a small corner of the nave has been scrapped away so that you can see the original foundations.

Artists like Johti Sahi remain the avant guard of Indian spirituality - most of the country's Christians are loyal to the conservative traditions expressed in the plaster-caste images you see here - Madonnas, crucifixes and idealised saints of the kind you would find in the churches of the Mediterranean. And there's some tension between pious flocks and radical priests like Father Paul Kartogaran who accompanied me here.

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The i...and the, the images of J...of Jesus are, are very European aren't they? I mean...
A Yes, yes.
Q ...He's, He's...
A It's a Portuguese...
Q ...He's white...
A This is er, all the statues in Kerola are brought from Europe. S...nothing is created by Indian artists - that is my understanding of images in Kerola churches.
Q Is that difficult for people here to relate to? In the fact that these images are so European?
A But then er you see there is a psychology - the dark people like white gods. There's something strange, and God is something er y'know somebody who is strange, and not...unlike us, y'know? So they like to relate to Mary who is a very strange kind of lady, which is er y'know, unknown to us, it's a European lady. They like.
Q So it's the, it's the distance is actually...
A Yeah distance.
Q ...a, a powerful thing?
A It's a, er, it's a symbol of transcendence, which is something strange.
Q You've, you've studied the way images of Jesus have, have developed in the Indian church. They've gone well beyond what we see here today, haven't they? They've changed very much.
A Er well in Kerola, people have not changed. They rather look forward to Jesus who is a Jew and who is a Palestinian, and they believe the pictures and images that they see here in Kerola are of that Jew. Not as a European, but that Jew - He looked like er, the image looks like the real Jesus, they think, and the Mary looks like the Jewish er Mary. So they, they look forward to not an image but the, the real em, er real figure of Jesus and Mary.
Q That matters very much does it? The fact that it's an accurate representation...
A Yeah an accurate representation...
Q ...of, of what they looked like?
A ...they like, yes. They look forward to that.
Q What about elsewhere in the Indian Church? 'Cos there are very different images elsewhere, aren't there?
A Well, in Goa also it is very much er Portuguese and in other parts also it is very much European. But then er, er the 1 person who has tried to inculturate er Indian images, Indian Christian images into Indian style, is Angelo da Fonseca of Goa. He er studied Art in the Bengal School of Art and er, in all of His life, He produced hundreds of images of Jesus and Mary in the various Indian styles. In Bengali style, Marati style, er several other styles, er with the different er dress codes and different er facial looks. Er that is the, that was the 1st experiment as far as I know in Indian Christian Art.
Q And what do those 2 different traditions tell us about the way people thought about Jesus? I mean what does, what does the, the, the image of Jesus that we see here tell us about the way He is seen in a community like this one?
A Well, the community has a very pietistic attitude towards Jesus. So they like er the image of Jesus who is very gentle, innocent looking and er, who is a Jew, er the real Jew. Er that is the kind of image they like and er, now some images which are popularised is of the sacred heart of Jesus, which is a German, probably a German image. And they think that it is the Jewish image of Jesus.
Q What about the, the inculturated images that you're talking, you've been talking about? What do they tell us about the way He's thought about?
A Well er Angelo, er several artists have done um images of Jesus in er, outside Kerola. And er...the image which is produced by Angelo da Fonseca, He's a very powerful Jesus and powerful Mary. The image looks up. Its not a devotional image of er, it's devotional but then that person, the personality of Jesus is very powerful. But in Kerola, the images which is important from Europe and all, it is very pietistic images.
Q What d'you make of that contrast? (Discussion).
A Er you see, we are a colonised people, and we receive what we are given - we are given images of Jesus by Portuguese missionaries and bishops - the Spanish er Carmelite missionaries and bishops. So we think that is the correct one. We just receive it without reflection, without analysis, and er we don't have a Christian self in India. Therefore our Christian imagination is standard, and we don't have an ima...we don't imagine Christ in India. That's our er deficiency, and er, we have not become a proper church in India, because we don't have an Indian faith which is born from our soil, from our flesh, from our innermost self.
Q You don't think that's being developed today?
A Today also, it is not being developed. But then in Kerola, but then outside Kerola there are, there is much more scope because there is much more freedom for the people er because the lowest mass of Christians the, the (??) and (tribals?) they are becoming politically strong and independent. And they are forming their own, their er, they are creating their own identities. So there is a possibility of creating an Indian image of Jesus from the lowest er strata Christians in India.
Q Thank you. That's...(discussion). Why, why is that, why is that happening, that develop...sorry. (Discussion). W...why sorry. Why is that happening? I mean you're a Roman Catholic priest, you've been trained in ideas about Jesus. What d'you think it is about (bells ring) Him that is creating that political movement?
A You see, the socio-political situation of our people is er (bells ring) is of slavery, because the lowest caste people, they are, they were under slavery socially and politically. And after Independence, there is a new resurgence in these people. And therefore er their identities are being formed and their faith is being rekindled and reformed, and they are interpreting in ways different from the European ways. They are interpreting the Bible and their theology, their faith in a different way which is unorthodox, and there is a hope for a new image of Christ in India.
Q But what is it in Him that produces that hope? What is it about Him d'you think, that people are finding?
A That Jesus is a liberative person who gave freedom to people, who gave er dignity for theirselves and for their communities. So er they look forward to Jesus as their hope, as their liberator. God who liberated them and that God is seen in Jesus, the image of Jesus. The, the Jesuses we see around us in the Stations of the Cross on the wall and the crucifix above the altar are very conventional, very European. If what you're s...if I understand what you're saying correctly, you feel that these are actually false images of Jesus.
A Correct. It will be in a way em siding with the colonisers and the oppressors, and our er, 80 percent of Christians in India are the lowest class people socially. And for them, they have to discover their God and their Jesus anew.
Q So what d'you feel about a place like this? We're in a church, em, lots of people here to pray (door slams). Er...but you don't seem to regard it as, as, as a place to be admired. You seem to feel that, that in some way the images here betray the truth about Jesus.
A Er excuse me...
Q Well you're a priest, we're in a church...
A Yes...yes...
Q ...and yet you're saying that the images we see around us are a betrayal of the truth about Jesus.
A Yes. We are still a dependent church. We depend er for our funds from Rome, from Germany, from America, and that keeps us dependent. All our theology is coming from the West. The p...er the priests who have educated themselves in Austria, in Germany, in Rome and in America are teaching in our seminaries here, Bible, theology, philosophy - everything. And er, um...tho...those priests who have been educated in the West, they don't think er independently. They think for the present colonised church, justifying it, ratifying it, em and er extolling it. There will be no salvation from em, such theologies.
Q Do you think you are in danger of creating your own Jesus because of what you think is important, what your priorities are?
A Pardon?
Q D'you think there's a danger that you are creating your own Jesus, your own version of Jesus, because of what you er because of what your theology? You're, you're if you like projecting your own ideas onto Him?
A Well, I am not saying for myself. I am saying for the 80 percent of the oppressed Christians in India. And I am seeing them, I am with them - and I speak in their place.
Q And what do they think w...when they see images like that one there, the white Mary in her blue robes em holding Jesus er on her lap, the crucified Jesus?
A Well, it is a pietistic image, and the ordinary people who come to the church, the churchgoing people, they er take if for granted that's the image they should see, and they should venerate such images. And that's all - a simplistic faith. But...er what I stress is, the people when they are liberated through the socio-political process which is happening in India today the, some of them er take leadership and initiative to lead their community politically and socially out of this er colonising structure of mind and er even in politics.
Q And their understanding of Jesus changes as they do that?
A Er it's a hope. And it's already changing, I believe and all, there are, there is already signs of their protest towards the established Church, which is a Roman church. They want to have their own churches. PK p1

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The debate about the way Jesus should be represented (worshiped) may hold a clue to the mystery I alluded to in the first of these programmes - the question of why he continues to exercise such fascination both as an icon of popular culture and a subject for serious scholarship. It is really a debate about the meaning of that central Christian concept the Incarnation - the idea that God became man in the person of Jesus. People of every culture which that idea penetrates will of course want to release its power for themselves. Martin Palmer is the director of the International Consultancy on Religion, Education and Culture and has studied the way non-European cultures have reinvented the image of Jesus.

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I think it's in a sense the overthrowing of the standard image of Christ er, was part of a, er a challenge to the authority of the Church, that had in a sense tamed Him. And it's, it's interesting, because I've done quite a lot of work on, on the, the Church in China. And er, in the early 20th century, texts and paintings were discovered from the 6th to 10th century AD that depicted Christ as a Buddha. As an Asian er in fact as a Chinese deity er, with all the accoutrements of the Buddha and described Him using language from Taoism and Buddhism and Confucianism. And when the western missionaries discovered these texts and paintings, they had to dismiss them. They were too shocking. So they, they described them as a failed form of Christianity, er a synchritic form of Christianity. Because anything that challenged the notion that we knew who Jesus was, was deeply disturbing, because we'd already got evolution arguing against a literital...literal reading of the Bible in terms of Creation. We had Biblical criticism saying 'Well actually, what DO we really know about Jesus?' So for a long time the, the Church establishment held on to the image of Christ as something that they felt was not attackable. So when er in the '60s in particular - liberation theology, Marxist groups, student groups began to depict Christ as a revolutionary, and did so primarily iconographically, primarily producing Him if you remember... There was a T shirt that used to be produced and had a, a very revolutionary Christ on it. It was the last fundamental assault on the grip of authority over defining what truth in the Christian faith was. And that's why it was so shocking and also why it was so necessary.
Q That's fascinating. So there's really something quite profound going on here - not, not just an argument about different depictions of Christ. But the very idea that you can depict Him and, and the idea that, that perhaps the traditional, European image actually represented what He looked like is hooked up in your view with the idea of a historical Christ, whose life we know about?
A Er absolutely so, absolutely so. And a sense that not only do we know about it, but we are, we are the purveyors of that truth, and therefore challenging the image, challenging the whole power structure of, of established Christianity. And lets Christ loose again. Very dangerous stuff as, as they discovered in the Americas er with, with the slaves, who'd taken on Christ, and had seen in His struggles as they'd seen in the Book of Exodus the struggles of the people of Israel, their own story. And the logical next step was to move from that to say 'Well maybe He even looked like us.' And we're back again to this fascinating thing Ed, that at the very beginning of Christianity, I would argue one of the ways that it became international was precisely because you could not locate one given image of Christ. You in a sense had to make Christ in your own image. MP p4
Q To what extent is the process that you're talking about driven by historicity? In other words, people going back and saying 'Actually this is what Jesus was really like', and to what extent is it driven by 'This is a figure that ought to fit in my times and in my culture'?
A I think, I think it oscillates between the 2, to be honest Ed. I think er, if you take 1 of the most radical images that has emerged in the last 10 to 15 years, and that is the female Christ. And even the black, female Christ. Now (laughs) you can, the argument that is put forward is 1st and foremost if God becomes incarnate in human form, then why do we only depict Him in a, a male form, if in fact He's for the salvation of all the world? And some of these people point to the fact that Christ speaks about Himself sometimes in the feminine. For example, when He stands over Jerusalem and mourns, He says 'I, I, I am like a mother hen, who would gather her young under her wings.' So there is that exploration, which you could argue at one level is purely a, a, an attempt to pander to the rise of feminism. But on the other h...hand, you could argue well no actually, it's a very valid point. If, if it's been OK to depict Christ as everything from Zeus through to em, er Che Guavara - well y'know, what's wrong with being feminine as well? But that is also fuelled by a desire to go back to find out not so much who Christ was, 'cos I, I think to be honest we've kinda given up on that. But what it was that He said that left such an impact, that even though we cannot see His form, we can see that the ripples of His existence. And I think the quest for the historical Jesus which so obsessed the 19th and early 20th century - my sense is that's pretty much over. Because we're recognising that even if we were to find that, that would not explain the rise of Christianity. Er so I think there is going to be, I think there is now less attention on discovering the original, historical Jesus, and more on arguing well what is the significance cosmologically, universally, of the fact that this person came into our world. MP p9