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PRESENTER: Eddie Mair
PANELLISTS: Clare Short
Vera Baird
Alan Duncan
Simon Hughes
FROM: University of Manchester
MAIR
Hello and welcome to Any Questions from the University of Manchester, the UK's largest single site university, where more than 40,000 students study 500 academic programmes. But where for the next 50 minutes four panellists will answer questions from the audience. And see we're guests of the Politics Society we can be sure the questions will be good.
Clare Short was one of the original members of Tony Blair's Cabinet. But having left it in 2003, over the Iraq War, she left the party to sit as an independent MP last year, declaring it was no longer a Labour government. Gordon Brown, she said, was increasingly diminished. She might also have a thought or two about the splitting of the Home Office this week, she used to be a civil servant in it.
Vera Baird QC is a minister in the newly created Ministry of Justice. This week her boss, Lord Faulkner, called for better use of community sentences and said that some jail terms for crimes like burglary were too long. On Any Questions last year Vera Baird criticised a judge for sentencing a paedophile too leniently - a comment she later withdrew. The most recent entry in her online diary describes Gordon Brown as a giant amongst politicians, committed, clear-headed, extremely clever and very amiable company.
Simon Hughes is president of the Liberal Democrats. A veteran leadership contender, he speaks for the party on constitutional affairs and the role of the Attorney General. He welcomed the opening of the Justice Ministry this week but warned against, what he called, populist gimmicks. Mr Hughes website carries a photograph of him in Cardiff wearing a blue rosette supporting Millwall in the FA Cup.
Alan Duncan is Shadow Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. He mounted what he later called a quixotic bid for the Tory leadership before throwing his weight behind David Cameron. On the change at the top of the Labour Part this week he said that with the front man gone Number 10 is about to be occupied by the wrong end of a pantomime horse. Whether that put Mr Brown's nose out of joint we don't know. And that's our panel. [CLAPPING]
Now let's have our first question.
HEATON
David Heaton. Will Tony Blair be remembered for the war he started or the conflict he ended?
MAIR
Clare Short.
SHORT
I think Tony's reputation in history will be Iraq, Iraq, Iraq. And of course Iraq isn't just Iraq, Iraq is the growing disaster in the Middle East, the growing feeling of lots of young Arabs that the only way to get justice is to fight with all the horrible consequences. I've just come back from Palestine and the situation there is just unbearable and what Israel is doing, great breaches of international law leads people to believe there's no justice, there's no international law and this is dangerous and bitter for the whole world. On Northern Ireland, it's very happy that we are where we are and that I think violence has ended in Irish politics after hundreds of years. And I think Blair did his bit. It started earlier, moves were made under Whitelaw, I remember secret talks with the IRA, even Thatcher moved to the Anglo Irish agreement, getting Dublin involved, John Major did his bit and Tony Blair picked up the baton and went with it and this is historical progress and it's very, very important. But Iraq is a disaster and I really think it's also unbearable that he lied so much about it. You can make mistakes but to lie about a war, the taking and sacrificing of human life is intolerable. And I think if Britain had used its influence better America might have taken longer, the UN process might have been given longer, who knows, we could have been in a massively better position than we are now and history will never forgive him for that.
MAIR
Vera Baird.
BAIRD
It would grossly unfair if all that was remembered of Tony's tremendous leadership of this government for the last 10 years was Iraq - wholly wrong. My constituents know that the National Health Service is infinitely better than it was 10 years ago. That there are more doctors, more nurses, that cancer waiting times - we have a heavy industrial area where there are a lot of industrial related injuries and a lot of industrial related disease - they are being dealt with far more quickly, far more effectively, far more smoothly in the National Health Service. Our education results have never been better, with highly motivated, reasonably well paid teachers in schools where power's been devolved to head teachers so they can manage their school to suit their community. Northern Ireland - even Clare has conceded was something in which Tony played a major role. Pensioners are no longer - no longer at greater risk of poverty than anyone else, 600,000 [AUDIENCE NOISE, CLAPPING]. Do you know I have worked for the Labour Party for the last 30 years and I believe in its philosophy and it is being implemented by this government and praising that fact has nothing to do with crawling, it has to do with powerfully supporting fairness, equality and such things as - Clare may not think hugely important but my constituents in Redcar do - namely that since we came into office unemployment in my constituency has gone down from double figures to just about ...
MAIR
Alright I think we've heard that message. What about - what if I may say - what about Iraq though?
BAIRD
... his legacy clearly must reflect the excellent things that he has done. Let's look forward now in a very much more positive way to progress further on, to more and more implementation of these good Labour policies.
MAIR
What about Iraq?
BAIRD
[CLAPPING] Inevitably Iraq is going to be part of what is remembered from this age. I wish that we could stop poisoning the well of politics now by constantly looking back over a decision which was taken now some years ago. [AUDIENCE MURMUR] Is there a point - is there a point to doing that when we have a problem which we can't reverse, we can't turn history back, we now have a huge responsibility to try to ensure that Iraq comes out of what has been in the past, what may be you and I may never agree about, though it's true to say I didn't vote for the war. Those dichotomies will never be healed - fine. Though we have a duty to the people of Iraq to ensure that we go forward, that we do our very best to try to alleviate the appalling tension between Sunnis and Shiites, that we use third parties to do that, that there is a government in Iraq and it is telling us and the people of Iraq are telling us not to leave yet because that would be premature, I'm not going to sit here in Manchester and say that they are wrong. Can we not look forward and try to come to some agreement about the way we get out of this to the benefit - as Clare rightly says - of the very big issue which is the whole crisis situation in the Middle East? Mustn't we work forward and not constantly look back and poison the challis ...
MAIR
Alan Duncan.
DUNCAN
Whatever you view on Iraq might be may I respectfully point out to Vera Baird that there is most certainly a point in looking at the decision that was taken because a hundred people a day are still being killed. [CLAPPING] But the question really - that was put by the questioner - was whether Tony Blair will be remembered more for the war he started in Iraq than the peace we've seen this week in Northern Ireland. I fear the answer straightforwardly is yes. I won't dwell on Iraq but let me just dwell on Northern Ireland ...
MAIR
Is that because you voted for it?
DUNCAN
I did vote for it but I - I was Shadow Foreign Minister at the time - no, no that's a - we didn't have all the information, we had to take things on trust. I actually feel very betrayed by this. [AUDIENCE NOISE] Well I know the Middle East inside out, I've been going there for 25 years, I know the history of the Middle East, the players but there are sometimes in government, when you're making very important decisions, where you have to take things on trust. And the only people who had the information were the government. But with Northern Ireland this is a great success and frankly I would far rather see Martin McGuinness sitting around a ministerial table than I would see the AK47 on the streets of Belfast. What we are seeing - what we're seeing in Northern Ireland is a great success but it's been cross party. It's good news - John Major started it and to his credit Tony Blair has seen it through to a conclusion. But it's not just about war I think that Tony Blair's going to be remembered for, though some things he has done well, anyone's political record when you've been Prime Minister for a decade will be mixed. I think on something like civil partnerships he's been really good. I think on things like social exclusion he's really tried, although I think a lot of their policies have not worked. I think that he has been a communications genius, it's been rather annoying, he's been very successful, it doesn't mean he's been entirely truthful in using that genius and I think he will be remembered for the spin that's gone with it and that will be to his detriment and I think he will also be remembered for neutering the House of Commons, which will be of long term disadvantage to the United Kingdom government.
MAIR
Simon Hughes. [CLAPPING]
HUGHES
Tony Blair will be remembered obviously for many things and our questioner chooses two by way of example and there are of course others. Ten years Labour leader, three General Election successes, there are lots of positives - devolution to Scotland and Wales - so there's lots - I'm not permanently critical, I'm not unbalanced about these things at all. In Northern Ireland and Ireland six million people, they will remember I hope the peace settlement and Alan was right to remind us that John Major played a huge part in starting that. And it's fantastic work, I give absolute unqualified credit to his leadership and all those who worked with him. But there are many, many, many more people who will live with and think about the consequence of the war in Iraq because it had two major significant consequences. It showed that we were willing to break international law and once you do that and once you act without the authority of the United Nations you cannot then go round the world asking other people to obey the authority of the United Nations with credibility and you undermine what's been built up for 60 years since the United Nations came into force. And secondly, we have really alienated the confidence and the trust of the Muslim world. And I've been - I was in Pakistan last year talking to a students' society like this and I said what do you think of Britain, they said we used to trust you, we don't trust you anymore. And I'm afraid he will therefore be remembered round the world for being somebody who took illegal action. And that was his decision and uniquely his leadership which took us there.
MAIR
Let's go back to our questioner. [CLAPPING] What do you think of the answers you've heard?
HEATON
Well it's very good, widespread. I mean there's certainly - obviously now is Iraq, it'll be Iraq in the future and obviously there's - I'm not trying to downplay the role played by the people in Northern Ireland obviously, wouldn't dream of that, but I'm wondering whether with time Northern Ireland will grow in the minds of the population.
MAIR
Alright thank you for that. Let's go on to our next question.
O'NEIL
Paul O'Neil. Has Tony Blair's government created a more liberal, tolerant society and would a future Conservative administration threaten this?
MAIR
Alan Duncan.
DUNCAN
I think of what one might loosely call the sexual agenda, one which I fully entirely and as many people will appreciate personally support, I think has been very good and I think that with things like the age of consent and civil partnerships he has done things that a Conservative government would not do but which a changed Conservative Party under David Cameron fully supports. And I think that is to his great credit. But there are many other aspects of what he's done which are absolutely illiberal. I think that some of his anti-terrorist legislation has been utterly unacceptable [CLAPPING], I think that some of the intrusive legislation he's rammed through on the back of - I mean genuine but possibly exaggerated - threats but ones which do not necessarily require this kind of illiberal legislation are wrong. And I think the one thing for which he will actually be remembered as supporting, which we do not want, are ID cards.
MAIR
And just to take the second part [CLAPPING] just to focus, if I may, on the second part of the question - when you look around your colleagues in the House of Commons do you see a bunch of liberal tolerant people?
DUNCAN
Simon Hughes would agree with me on this that actually the Lib Dems and we have been very similar in the vigour with which we have opposed ID cards. And so to the answer to your question and the track record of doing so is most definitely yes. And the same applies to the god knows how many - I have to take my socks off to count them - numbers of anti-terrorist legislation and law and order pieces of legislation which the government has had to ram through. So the answer most definitely is yes.
MAIR
Alright. Vera Baird.
BAIRD
I want to echo what Alan said about the equalities agenda, which I think we've done extremely well and there are now public duties on authorities who can use their procurement powers to impose duties on private businesses to promote equality of opportunity for people of gender - all genders, all races and disability - and there will be more to come. Those kind of steps I think are real hallmarks of a good liberal government. What I think is the real underpinning of our philosophy about law and order and rights is the Human Rights Act. When we introduced the Human Rights Act we literally took into this country the right for anyone to go to court to raise the issue, have we legislated, have we done something that's contrary to the Convention on Human Rights which we were a major part in setting up and which had been the unpinning of civil liberties across the continent for now 40, 50 years. And in that sense we've tied our own hands from becoming illiberal. And everything we do has to be now seen against that backdrop and everything we do can be challenged against that backdrop and we did that.
MAIR
Is that your way of saying the Conservatives can't undo much of your work?
BAIRD
Well they would have enormous difficulty withdrawing from what we've done in terms of human rights. And so I think that that would be extremely difficult for them. I don't see a bunch of liberals in the Conservative Party at all, I saw David Cameron at the conference welcoming civil partnership and then the cameras went around to the blue rinse people who were really rather growling and frowning about it. So no I think that there won't be the same impetus to be liberal that we have manifested. I have to say I've been occasionally worried about too easier a reaction on a law and order basis when some atrocities occurred and you feel you've got to take action very, very quickly because the public is frightened and you've got a duty as a government to protect them. But always, always remember that we ourselves have put ourselves within this framework of human rights and we're not allowing ourselves to break out of it. And so our civil liberties are reasonably secure.
MAIR
Simon Hughes.
HUGHES
The answer is we certainly a more liberal and tolerant country and society over the last 10 years and the government has played its part in that, a very credible part. It introduced the Human Rights Act which Vera rightly refers to. It introduced eventually, it took a long time to get the thing through, but the Equalities Act, Disability Discrimination Act and certainly the law on the age of consent [indistinct words], all progressive, enlightened, modern, political initiatives. The second half of the question: Will the Tories follow that? The leadership is trying to turn the Tory Party around, I have to say I don't know whether you've ever watched the Tory Party conference but if you look at the audience you don't immediately have the view - the average age is normally about 65 - but I mean you don't - you don't immediately have the view that they have quite bought in to this agenda ...
MAIR
Why? How can you tell that by looking at them?
HUGHES
Well you can tell it by what they respond positively to, what they applaud loudly about and what they don't. And certainly some of Alan's colleagues - Alan is an extremely liberal and enlightened - but some of his colleagues around him are not quite in the same vein and you will hear comments which confirm that on a pretty regular basis. But the really sad thing is that together with the liberal and tolerant approach there is however this horrible authoritarian streak that the government have had and it's about government not giving power to Parliament, already referred to, it's about having a Human Rights Act and then pulling out of it so you lock people up in Belmarsh without trial. It's about 3,000 new offences, it's about legislating all the time instead of administering and it's not believing that the best way to get the liberal tolerant society is not more legislation saying to people what you can't do but actually trying to educate people into what they can do and do well.
MAIR
Clare Short.
SHORT
[CLAPPING] I think Britain is an increasingly liberal and tolerant society and we shouldn't make the mistake of thinking everything our society is is made by governments. Some of it - a lot of it - is people and their values and governments respond to that. And I think early Labour did make great gains and it's partly the Labour Party making commitments in opposition - like implementing the Human Rights Act which later Labour didn't like the fact that it could be used on control orders and wanted to diminish and get rid of. And I think the Tory Party is still threatening to rewrite the Human Rights Act. I think on equality for gay people - we've done very well in this period, it's been on free votes, but I think it's very important that it reflects a change in society. I think later Labour became astonishingly, dangerously, illiberal. The form of ID cards absolutely compulsory with a computer linking everything up and some computer knowing every single transaction everyone makes, I mean thank heaven it'll never happen because the computers won't work. But the idea of it - and the cost of it is intolerable. And on that and 90 days detention for questioning - I mean you're all too young, a lot of you in this room, to remember the terrible miscarriages of justice over the Irish terrorism cases and they were with full jury trials. And then a Labour government put forward 90 days and I was astonished sitting there, that was when we all went through the night and there were the Tories, and Dominic Grieve in particular for the Tories, together with the Lib Dems and some Labour rebels voting against the government, making principled and honourable arguments about the traditions of the rule of law. So it's a mixed record here - Labour did some good things, then some absolutely horrendous things. The treatment of asylum seekers is shameful ... [CLAPPING]
MAIR
Clare Short thank you - thank you for that I just want to, if I may, just give the telephone number for Any Answers because we've had some very interesting answers from all of you so far, I'm keen to know what people at home think. So after Saturday's Any Questions it is Any Answers and the number to call is 08700 100 444, that's 08700 100 444. And you can e-mail any.answers@bbc.co.uk.
SHORT
Could I say one other thing?
MAIR
Yes of course.
SHORT
I think on race relations Britain is open and much more comfortable with the diversity of people. All the anti-terrorism stuff and the rhetoric has made the Muslim community feel really under threat, alienated, it actually maximises the risk of people engaging with extremist groups, I think that's been done very badly and has been illiberal and the people who are stopped and searched and so on are young Muslims increasingly and that's a very bad thing that's dangerous and wrong.
MAIR
Right let's have our next question.
WILLOUGHBY
Jonathan Willoughby. Do you think the Independent Police Complaint Commission was correct in its decision not to punish the officers who shot Jean Charles de Menezes and has the commission lost any credibility with this decision?
MAIR
Eleven officers not facing disciplinary action, they were among 15 interviewed by the IPCC, decisions have not been made on the four most senior officers investigated. Let's ask the Minister for Justice.
BAIRD
Successive ways of inquiring into the way the police have worked have shown themselves to be very close to the police and not an effective external scrutiny. I think that the IPCC is very different, not least of all because I know some of the people who are in it and the deputy chair or the deputy chief executive of it is the man who used to run Liberty - John Wadham - who is a friend of civil liberties plus, plus and an enemy of anything authoritarian. So I am reasonably convinced when the IPCC comes to such a conclusion knowing that such people are within it, that they will have scrutinised it from a good public oriented point of view, that they are totally independent of the police and that probably we can put serious trust in what they've done.
MAIR
Having said that and as I say there are still four more officers being considered. If ultimately all 15 are not prosecuted what would that say?
BAIRD
I don't think we should muddle up the two things - this is disciplinary proceedings within the police force isn't it and not about prosecutions, prosecution decisions are taken again with a different organisation which is the Crown Prosecution Service looking at that and they too have to come to separate views about it. If nobody is disciplined for this then the question will fall, won't it, to us to decide do we trust the people who have looked at the inquiry because the superficial view of it, even when you take a few layers away and look more deeply at it, look quite, quite, quite, quite troubling at the time. And yet we will never have the evidence before us to form a judgement that the IPCC will have demanded and brought before itself. So I am ready to trust their conclusions on this and the question is are you?
MAIR
Clare Short.
SHORT
I'm not close enough to all the detail to know about the individual officers but a completely innocent young man came to Stockwell tube, picked up a newspaper, went properly down to work and they came and shot him in the head six times. And then we were systematically lied to. We were told he ran, we were told he jumped over the barrier, we were told he didn't have a ticket and all this was lies and it was the Metropolitan Police pumping out these lies and that makes me so uncomfortable. And if this all goes by and no one is held to account, nothing is reorganised, no one explains one, how it happened and an innocent young man was killed and then, all the lies that went on for ages, then something is terribly frightening. So [CLAPPING] ...
MAIR
But the question - the question is about the credibility of the IPCC and Vera Baird's message is well we have to trust them.
SHORT
I just thought when she was saying about the head of it being former civil liberties, so was Harriet Harman and Patricia Hewitt - people change. I don't know about him, I'm not saying he's changed, I haven't seen him for years but if there is not some holding to account for this horrendous event and some at least facing up to what went wrong, who's fault it was, maybe reorganisation then I won't trust the system.
MAIR
Simon Hughes.
HUGHES
Firstly, the independent police authority is a new creation and it's much better than the old one. We used to have the police investigating the police and many of us for many years said that's completely unacceptable. And I have no doubt that Nick Hardwick, who's the chair and John Rodham, who's his deputy and all the other people, are entirely honourable people who are seeking to do a good independent job. So as an organisation we're in a much better position. In terms of this case we haven't heard the end because although the majority of police have been exonerated the senior people haven't. And bluntly it's always struck me that it would have been the senior people who would have been responsible because they would have made the decisions. And the others are carrying out the decisions. If you're a police officer in the front line and you have a moment's judgement then it's really not your responsibility personally if you're told by your seniors to do something. So I'm not surprised at the decision, I think we need to reserve judgement until the end of the investigation. However, what we do not have in Britain yet is an adequate system for allowing a public inquiry as of right in this sort of case. I was the MP when the Marchioness sank in the Thames, for years we battled so the relatives and the survivors could ask the questions about what happened and whether the collision could have been avoided and we will only get an answer for the family and the friends, for the Brazilian community, for the South London community where I live, if people can have an inquiry and ask the questions. And we still don't have a system that as quickly as possible allows an inquest to happen, criminal charges to be brought and a public inquiry. Vera's department is dealing with reform of the coroner's system but until we have all those linked together so there can be real public accountability people will never have confidence that the decisions taken on these issues are the right ones. [CLAPPING]
DUNCAN
I've got very mixed views about this because it's not easy to be certain and broadly I agree with a lot of what Clare Short and Simon Hughes have said. I mean I've actually made a complaint - some time ago, years ago - to the Police Complaints Commission, having witnessed a demonstration in which I thought that the police were over vicious and unnecessarily so with their truncheons on demonstrators. And I was very unhappy with the outcome. But here we've got a very complicated issue where there was a heightened awareness of terrorism, there was a sort of very high risk few days and the police have a very difficult job. I mean [indistinct words] going off in an Underground station or were they going to get the wrong person - they got the wrong person. And I think that it's unwise for politicians not being in possession of all the facts to sit in their armchair and make these very difficult judgements. But I tell what really does disturb me, and Clare was right, it was the way the police handled it afterwards, saying that he jumped over the barrier, that he was wearing a puffer jacket, and I'm pretty sure that the Home Office was talking to the Brazilian Embassy knowing that those facts were not true while the senior police officers were still pedalling this line. And I'd like to see what the Independent Police Complaints Commission says about that.
MAIR
And do you trust the IPCC, that's the underlying ...?
DUNCAN
Not as much as I would like to.
MAIR
Alright, let's go on to our next question.
COURAGE
Samuel Courage. Should Gordon Brown hold a snap election?
MAIR
Vera Baird. Should Gordon Brown hold a snap election?
BAIRD
I think that there is - that would be, if there were some sort of fissure between what people have already voted for for the next five years and what is going to proceed for the next balance of five years.
MAIR
Even though New Labour's been removed from the Labour Party website?
BAIRD
That's not a very significant point, to be frank with you. What is very much more significant obviously is that these two men together were the architects of New Labour principally with other people. They have worked together in different ways for 10 years, they have - they have - the electorate voted Labour for the Labour Party, they voted for me not because I'm me but primarily because I'm a Labour MP, though I hope the people of Redcar like me as well. We were elected on a Labour manifesto and things have not changed from that. So I see no reason for any change in the democratic mandate that we've got now...
MAIR
Alright, Alan Duncan.
BAIRD
...I think that what'll happen is a change of style but not a huge change.
DUNCAN
Yeah I'd love to have an election straightaway [CLAPPING], in fact we had one only last week and we got 40% of the vote and we now have three times as many councils as Labour and the Lib Dems put together, so let's have an election.
HUGHES
Not many councils in Manchester, when I last counted Alan. [CLAPPING]
For the sake of the audience can I clarify not many means no councillors in Manchester.
DUNCAN
But they're all around and they're closing in.
HUGHES
No they're not, no they're not, no they're not.
DUNCAN
Let's go back to the point. Yeah but in most of the county yes. Anyway I'd love to have an election. Tony Blair said he would serve a full term and he hasn't, he's bailed out after two years. And Gordon Brown does not have the appeal of Tony Blair. I quite accept that under the British constitution, in the same way as John Major followed Margaret Thatcher and in the same way as Jim Callaghan followed Harold Wilson, we have a parliamentary system and not a presidential system so whoever is the leader of the majority party in Parliament is the Prime Minister. But I just think that given that Gordon Brown has been there brooding for a decade and I'd just quite like to put him to the test, I think it would be rather good fun. So let's go for it.
MAIR
Clare Short.
SHORT
There won't be a snap election because Labour's behind and Gordon will obviously try to do things to put Labour in front. I think probably if Labour was in front he'd quite like an early election to get his own mandate. And of course as has been said in our political system you don't have to do it and we've had lots and lots of historical examples of one prime minister handing over to another. I really hope Vera's wrong, I hope Gordon's going to make lots of change and the one speech we've had from him so far saying we're going to be humble, we're going to admit mistakes, that'll be a big change. He also said we're going to look at the NHS again and we've not done enough on housing - I agree with both those things. So I hope we're going to get lots of change and better government. We're not going to get a snap election and our constitutional system says you don't have to but if Labour got ahead we might get one.
MAIR
Simon Hughes.
HUGHES
I was going to enjoy myself even more by listing all the other places that the Tories have no councillors - like Liverpool and Newcastle and so on - but I won't do that.
MAIR
Were there places where the Liberal Democrats didn't do so well?
HUGHES
Well no in Manchester we went up and in many other places we went up too. [TALKING OVER]
HUGHES
Since I let you interrupt me can I say one thing? Let me just smash a myth. We are the majority party throughout local government and there are far more places across the United Kingdom where the Labour Party and indeed the Lib Dems have no councillors and not even candidates than is true of the Conservative Party.
MAIR
And were this last Friday's Any Questions I would let you go on at some length about that but let's stick to ...
HUGHES
I was being very naughty and I apologise. On the snap election question. Firstly, Alan and I - we're not veterans because we're so young and youthful - but Alan and I sort of veterans of leadership elections and the first leadership election that's not snap is the leadership election to be the leader of your party which goes on for weeks and weeks and weeks and it looks as if it'll go on for weeks and weeks and weeks even if there's only one candidate in the Labour Party which is slightly strange. And I think Gordon Brown would firstly like an election so that at least he can say to his colleagues or comrades - I have beaten somebody - they're struggling a bit to find somebody to stand against him. So let's have an internal election first. Secondly, we have called for an election specifically because the Prime Minister said explicitly before the last election - I will serve a full term - explicitly, explicitly. And under our system we have to assume that he meant that and that was the deal he did with the electorate. They didn't do terribly well, I mean they won, they won but they got the lowest share of the vote of any winning party ever since the history of the world in this country. But they won. Last point, there is however a flaw in the system, we think there should be an election, we're ready for it, we're up for it and as soon as the new prime minister takes over there could be one and we could have it all over by the summer holidays, it would be wonderful, and then we could all relax. However, we should have a fixed term parliament, we shouldn't have the Prime Minister having the entitlement to call an election whenever he wants to, the Queen's Speech should be the occasion when the Prime Minister gets a vote of confidence and the majority and they should remain in government for a fixed term until they are defeated in the House of Commons and lose their majority when there should be an election. This is a nonsense system.
BAIRD
And then you don't have fixed term elections because then you'd go straight to ...
DUNCAN
General Election with that exception. I mean we have a fixed term, which is a five year maximum, and fixed terms are great for a presidency when you elect one person to do a four year period but because in a parliamentary system the dynamics are such that in the course of an administration people can die, you can have by-elections, the mathematics changes, parties can split - you can't have a fixed term parliament. This is - this sounds great - this sounds great coming from the Lib Dems but like a local income tax it doesn't work, it's total nonsense. [CLAPPING]
MAIR
Should Gordon Brown hold a snap election, how will Tony Blair be remembered, do we trust the IPCC? Just some of the questions we've had. If you've got answers the number to call is 08700 100 444 or e-mail any.answers@bbc.co.uk. Our next question please.
ROBINSON
Hazel Robinson. Now that Gordon Brown is running to be the next Prime Minister does the panel think we will see a different side to him?
MAIR
Vera Baird, do we want to see a different side to a man who's already committed, clear headed, extremely clever and very amiable company?
BAIRD
I suspect that we will get to know more of him, yes, because as Chancellor he has, albeit a very powerful one, a defined brief, he emerges to deal with economic issues, he does the budget, he does the CSR and so on but he doesn't have the constant exposure that he's bound to have now as he becomes Prime Minister ...
MAIR
And that quote - that quote I used I sort of cut it off, I seem to remember it goes on - extremely clever and very amiable company contrary to popular perception or some such - why do you think you see a side of him that others don't?
BAIRD
No I don't think that is how it went on actually but I don't - I don't remember that specific quote ...
MAIR
But you do know quite a bit about him don't you?
BAIRD
But the point that I was really trying to make - no I know him a little. The point that I was trying to make ...
DUNCAN
It seems to go a long way.
BAIRD
The point that I was trying to make - slowly and painstakingly - was that we're bound to get to know more about him because he will be under constant exposure, in the way that Tony Blair has been over years preceding. Will we see another side to him? I don't know what that means, I think you can sense what sort of person he is now, he is obviously much less sort of outgoing person than Tony Blair was, much less easy at first sight to engage with on a one-to-one level. He is a deepish person, isn't he, he's a strong thinker, he's a careful planner - he's a very different character. Let me say, that although I'm not pretending I know him well at all, there were - there were a couple of occasions when I've been in company with him with lots of other people when somebody has said - what I don't think they do that often with him actually - something fairly light hearted because he does have the appearance of being very serious and a heavy thinker a lot of the time, somebody has said something light hearted on some occasion I was trying to persuade him that we women wanted to talk about pensions and we wanted to talk again to him very, very soon and we were arguing whether it should be April or March and I said it's my birthday in February, can't I have the present of coming back to pursue these issues with you now - I was just bored - now he just burst out into a great grin and he said it's my birthday in February, now what date's yours and the whole thing shifted on to a much more amiable level. All I'm saying [AUDIENCE NOISE]...
DUNCAN
It's clearly going to be a laugh a minute.
BAIRD
What I think that shows is that - yeah - there are - there is a very serious side to him and that nonetheless if he relaxes and if people get on terms with him in the way that it is possible to do then we will see I think a very friendly side of him too. Look he's a man to respect.
MAIR
Simon Hughes.
HUGHES
Gordon Brown is highly competent, he's highly intelligent, he's very qualified to do the job and in many ways he's the obvious choice, so let's be quite clear about - I've heard him make brilliant speeches, I've heard him make funny speeches, so I respect him greatly as an individual, he's commitment to Africa. What would worry me if tomorrow, for example, he suddenly became an expert on the Eurovision Song Contest or suddenly we had not just Arctic Monkeys but bands being quoted in every speech, which was precisely - look he must be himself. Tony Blair has been himself but he has been himself so much that people are just wanting a rest. [LAUGHTER] And to be honest, I saw something today that said in the great, great catalogue of prime ministers - and it was written by somebody who doesn't have a party allegiance - Attlee will always be rated as a much greater prime minister than Tony Blair. Attlee wasn't a laugh a minute prime minister, I wasn't alive at the time, just put this in brackets in case you're worried, but he was serious. Gordon Brown's a serious guy and he's quite a private guy and if he becomes prime minister I'd just ask him to be himself and please don't pander to the modern media to try to make you things that you're not - he can support Raith Rovers, he can go home at the weekend, which is fantastic rather than going to Chequers - there's no risk of being caught playing croquet like John Prescott was - and just be himself and don't try to suddenly be everything to all people and run the country well and he may get great respect for being a more serious, less showman type of prime minister and it may do Britain more good.
MAIR
Clare Short. [CLAPPING]
SHORT
I want to just you back briefly to the 2005 election. If you remember in the middle of it the Lib Dems were surging and it wasn't looking good for Labour. Gordon Brown had been marginalised, Alan Millburn was supposed to be in charge and then Tony was panicking and he sent for Gordon and they had the ice creams together - do you remember - and there after they always appeared together. At that point Gordon Brown was more popular than Tony Blair. And I'm just reminding us. Now Tony is a superb presenter and utterly charming and not very much good at content, not well read, doesn't do detail. Gordon is enormously, voraciously well read, incredibly intelligent, does detail to a very great degree and is a control freak. Now the former qualities are very good qualities. Can he ease up a bit? He knows that he needs to, he's talked about different ways of decision making, I mean he knows intellectually the way that he needs to change and he's talking about getting rid of celebrity politics, being more humble, I think slowing down on marketisation of the NHS, is what he was saying yesterday. So I think this is a fascinating question and if the best of Gordon can come out there'll be a happier and better governed country but I don't know if he can do it, if he can put the control freak to bed. But if he can it'll be great.
MAIR
Would you be tempted to become a Labour MP again?
SHORT
I think I've burned my boats comprehensively, I shall observe from the side lines.
BAIRD
If I may say so Clare's hit the spot far more accurately than I was just trying to exemplify with my little example of my own private secret - you know treasured moment when Gordon smiled.
MAIR
No we'll always remember ...
BAIRD
I'm being ironic at my own expense but she does - she does make the right point that lightning up may be a very good thing but this is a man of great depth, this is a man of great potential and lightning or not lightning up isn't the point.
MAIR
Alan Duncan.
DUNCAN
You know I think this is very interesting because it takes us into what a lot of modern politics is all about, you know it's not just policy and what you say and what your manifesto says. As we get more presidential the personality of the guy at the top really matters and all of you who are voters are trying to work it out, trying to work him out. And the politics of personality is an inevitable part of modern politics. And you know when his friends are there saying that you know he's psychologically flawed, he's an obsessive control freak, it does make people stop and think.
SHORT
I don't think we're friends actually.
DUNCAN
Ah I'm sorry Clare it was you, I'm sorry about that.
SHORT
No it wasn't me and people who are friends don't say things like that about people.
DUNCAN
Put it this way they were in his own party. But ...
SHORT
Well that's different.
DUNCAN
In asking if we're going to see another side of him why don't we just park personality to one side and look at the policy because that I think he really what will determine the future of Britain. This is a man who's doubled your council tax and destroyed your pension. He believes in controlling things from the centre. A select committee report this week has said that his tax credit system is very unfair, it gives lots of poor vulnerable people massive bills for repayment, so it doesn't work in practice. He's got a little coterie of people around him. So is this someone about whom we'd like to see another side because if we get the side we've got we're going to face a lot of difficulties. So I hope we do see another side of him. But in terms of the personality he is trying too hard, it doesn't work, the more he smiles the more people wince. I think he is selectable but I have a real question mark over whether he's ever going to be electable.
SHORT
Can I say I know him really well and he can be a control freak and a grump and he can be a very charming likeable person, let's hope for the latter for the country.
MAIR
Alright. Final question.
GOTH
Monica Goth. Should Cherie bring out a line of first lady clothing to complement her range of speaking events?
MAIR
Alan Duncan.
DUNCAN
[clapping] No. I think not. I think she's a very accomplished barrister and when her husband has more freedom it may be that she will be able to do more things at the bar and she feels very passionately, I have to say, we may not always agree with the things she champions at the bar and I think we should encourage her to follow the profession in which she's had a very distinguished record so far.
MAIR
Clare Short.
SHORT
I think she would if it would make lots of money but I don't think it would. And the other thing I'd say is she's a lot prettier and more beautiful in real life than in the photos, that's the truth but I don't think people would buy the clothes.
MAIR
Why do you think she sometimes gets such a hard time in the media?
SHORT
Well she pushed herself forward and became the sort of - the political spouse and that's not our tradition and I think she was unwise in that. I mean being the mum and the partner and then getting on with her own job as a barrister and not pushing herself into politics and looking so controlling - that's what annoyed people.
MAIR
Vera Baird.
BAIRD
It's a great question because it's a - I mean it's a joke but it's also a parody on the fact that we are a very personality cult oriented today, so it is a real good question. But I doubt that she will and I don't think she should and she's a pretty good barrister actually, she beat me once in a case.
MAIR
Simon Hughes.
HUGHES
I guess that it would be preferable to have Cherie Blair - Cherie Booth - I think than Tony Blair doing the modelling in the future but more seriously she is a great barrister, I hope she has a chance to pursue that career, she has a prospective judicial appointment. Actually if the Labour government had followed the views that Cherie had on lots of civil liberty things we would have done far better. So I hope she will speak out, I hope she will rise to the heights in her career but no, please, not more models and clothing ranges - it just puts up the price of everything and poor students at Manchester University and elsewhere can't afford them.
MAIR
But why do you think she sometimes gets such a hard time?
HUGHES
I think she partly gets a hard time unfairly, as Clare indicated, because she looks far less attractive in the media than she is in reality and I think that doesn't help. And also because people like to have a go at her, she can't answer back.
MAIR
Alright. Well look thank you all very much for your answers. Clare Short, Vera Baird, Alan Duncan and Simon Hughes. If you have your own answers please contribute them, we'll hear from you after Saturday's edition of Any Questions. The number to call is 08700 100 444, that's 08700 100 444 or e-mail any.answers@bbc.co.uk. We'll be in Whitby next week, do join us if you can. From all of us for this week bye bye. [CLAPPING]
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