Have Your Say

J.C.Warner general
When will we have the announced Dreyfus Affair ?

Mark O'Hare Logical Positivism
One of the philosophers who was cited as an influence on Logical Positivism was David Hume. Given that Hume is arguably the greatest philospher who ever lived and Melvyn Bragg's consternation at Marx being given this honour by a poll of his listeners, why does he not dedicate one or two programs to Hume?

The Pre-Cambrian
In poetic appreciation of Monday's prog:IN OUR TIMEWe're in the pre-Cambrian,interrogating a suspect rock,using the most advanced techniques(including a small hammer)until it tells us what we think it knows.

Phil Tinline (Producer, In Our Time) - Dreyfus Aff
Melvyn and his guests will be discussing the Dreyfus Affair on 8 October. All the best, Phil

Anthony Maynard, The Ediacara Biota
Nice programme, though I could have done with just the tiniest mention of where in the calendar the evolution of plants fitted, to complete the picture.I wonder if anyone these days knows of 'LARVAL FORMS and other zoological verses' by Walter Garstang, Professor of Zoology at Leeds from 1908, with an introduction by Alister Hardy, published by Blackwell in 1954. Two tasters:-1. From THE INVAGINATE GASTRULA AND THE PLANULA:-A giddy little Gastrula, gyrating round and round,Was thought to show the way we got our enteron profound:A little whirlpool in its wake maintained a tasty store,A pocket sank to lodge it all, and left a blastopore.As a larval epigram this description earns a prize,But as sketching adult ancestry can only win surprise,And when you note all early orders fixed upon the rocks,You feel a slight embarrassment, the first of many shocks...2. From THE ORIGIN OF CNIDOBLASTS AND CNIDOZOA:-'Tis odd that Enterozoa should with Coelenterates begin,With differentiated cells and a diplothelial skin,For the Gastrula is clearly by a Blastula preceded, And pelagic monothelial sires for this are sorely needed!'Tis also true that Haeckel, when he looked around for one,Could only "Magosphaera" find, which none else had done!He then appealed to Volvox, which the serious dearth reveals,Since both are quite incapable of taking solid meals!&c.

John Carlisle : Ediacara Biota
This was THE most brilliantly explained and entertaining programme you have done. The three experts were masters of narrative as well as their fields, and complemented each other so well, i.e. did nt compete. You have got to get them back

Alan Quinn Ediacara Biota
I have 2 comments to make.I object to the use of the metric system in your programmes (it is clearly now BBC policy generally to eliminate this aspect of our heritage). Your audience at this time of the day is likely to be mostly retired. Indeed people over 40 are fully comfortable with the Imperial System.There was a moment of delight early on when one of your contributors spoke of a specimen being 2 inches across, but, thereafter, it was metric.Your producer may claim that these are the units of science but you are talking to the general public not at a scientific conference. Even if the listener can 'translate' the measurements, it causes a brief loss of attention and, thus, often the next key word or so are missed. ("Two inches" is immediately conceptualised).At least set the 2 systems side-by-side - if you must.A second point is about the content of the programme. I usually enjoy the programmes (although today's topic was an odd choice - this life form formed no part of the evolution tree)but today's, which Melvyn Bragg found so enjoyable, was, frankly, a ramble. It might have answered his his questions but, as a listener with no chance of preparation, it was structureless and far from instructive. I have a degree in chemistry and would expect to be able to follow a 'populist'(?)broadcast on a scientific topic, so that I have a reasonable grasp of the essentil points by the end. I did not!

Dreyfus
Will the Dreyfus programme - scheduled in RT for today - be broadcast in the future? Thanks - Bernice Wilson

Alan Quinn Ediacara Biota
Testing!! Sumissions not working this morning. Very annoying.

Ediacara Biota
Great programme thanks. My mother popped in just as IOT finished and as she has a (somewhat archaic) biology degree I mentioned how interesting it had been. "So what have they learned?" she asked. "Well...........not enough" my reply unexpectedly formed itself. I suppose I could have said that biologically speaking we are either usurped or eaten on this planet! The problem is that knowledge - and discovery - come with an exponential deficit ie. "the more I know the more I realize I don't know". I was somewhat gutted to hear that it's weeks until the next programme.....and my kitchen just won't be as clean. During this morning's programme, with a certain parity, even poetry, I finally tackled the new life forms in the recesses of my fridge - don't want those evolving, do I. Ah well, 'til September then. Enormous thanks to Melvyn and the In Our Time team for so many wonderful programmes over the last year and for the superlative series on Darwin. Also thanks to all the other listeners who send their synergistic responses. Warmest wishes and I hope you each have a thoroughly lovely summer. Jane

Richard Walder
Ediocara BiotaI really enjoyed this week's programme. In particular oxygen's effect on life in the early oceans and atmosphere.I chanced upon a wonderful book by Nick Lane simply titled 'Oxygen' "The molecule that made the World". His wide ranging book charts the rise of oxygen from a toxic Venusian atmosphere to the steady levels we have today. He also shows how increased levels produced giant insects and how this molecule affects human aging.I am sure this seemingly arcane subject would interest an audience of both arts and science fans.Many thanks for a wonderful series

Alan Rowden Why no Dreyfus?
Guardian and Times papers radio section mentioned that the final programme would be on Dreyfus.Hope this is not a conspiracy by the powers that be!!!!!Hope you come back soon to give radio a good thinking programme

Michael Kennedy, Logical Positivism
The logical positivism programmeI agree with others that this was an admirably clear and informative programme. It was, however, somewhat one-sided in that its three discussants were clearly in favour of logical positivism; and it paid no attention to its critics, such as Passmore and Popper (here I agree very much with J.J.Prescott). Nobody asked exactly what it means to say that scientific knowledge is ''based'' on evidence as distinct from our acceptance of theories being helped by confirmation, and by attempts at falsification. Nobody mentioned Popper's point that verification of a universal law is impossible. Nobody mentioned induction. Some time ago we had three anti-Popperians discussing Popper, and now we have three pro-positivists discussing logical positivism. Radio 4 should try to find a mix of advocates and dissenters for programmes like this - although I realise this is difficult.Michael Kennedy

Jane
As I climbed back into bed at twenty past four this morning after clearing out the inadequate drain and mopping up the flooded bathroom (caused by torrential rain), something 'hit' me very strongly. The quickest way to describe it is with this quotation which I recently rescued from the accumulated layers on the kitchen pin board thing: "Man closed the gates of Heaven against himself and tried, with immense energy and ingenuity, to confine himself to the Earth. He is now discovering... that a refusal to reach for Heaven means an involuntary descent into Hell". E.F. Schumacher 1977. (I have never read his books, but I intend to following a quick glance at his writings.) I would advise anybody who was seriously interested in this week's programme on logical positivism to look up 'A Guide for the Perplexed' E.F. Schumacher and also 'Induction/inductive reasoning' - both on wikipedia. What 'hit' me so hard in those hours where primal nature and 'soul' nature seem to coincide was the fact that for all my words and my esoteric experiences I realized the extent to which an allegiance to reductionism, empiricism etc. is alive and kicking in me and drastically inhibiting my own inner kingdom. In his newsletter, Melvyn, justifiably, eulogized eloquently about one side of the coin of science....but there is a dark and insidiously powerful and influential side too. I wasn't particularly looking forward to this programme on logical positivism but its influence has actually brought me a real epiphany....a moment of incredible clarity. What can I say but "Thanks" once more. Best wishes as always - Jane. ps 'In Our Time' draws so much together that it constantly reveals the interconnectedness of things. Several of this weeks' responses relate to the role of time in this whole process and many of the previous programmes would be relevant 'this way and that'. The programme is, without doubt, more than the sum of its parts.

Lesley Chamberlain on Logical Positivism
Fascinating programme which brought out for me how strong the parallel was between what the Logical Positivists thought, that metaphysics was rubbish and should be banished from the future scientifically based society (as someone said, they felt they were starting again after WW1) and what actually happened in Russia after the Revolution, another opportunity for a new start, where Lenin banished the last of the religious/metaphysical Russian thinkers abroad, on the grounds that their views were incompatible with the scientifically envisaged future of Russia. I told this story and made passing reference to the parallel with Logical Positivism in my 2006 book The Philosophy Steamer Lenin and the Exle of the Intelligentsia. What the parallel shows is how Russia so often enacts as real, usually politically driven practice what Western minds only toy with in theory. One can go right back to the early nineteenth century with their far too literal borrowing of German Idealism as a prescription for the Russian cultural future and see something similar happening. Someone mentioned that the Logical Positivists were opposed to dialectical materialism as another form of nonsense (and quite rightly so since it was disguised metaphysics) while at the same time the LPs were socialists from Red Vienna. This shows how much we still have to understand about the very complex relations between socialism and philosophy, and their manifestations in different countries circa 1920, not least the vast difference between what was made out of a marriage of the two in Russia, as opposed to say in Austria and Germany.Excellent programme, for which many thanks.

Eddie Clarke :Logical Positivism
This was, as usual an excellent, interesting programme but I was mildly surprised that none of the panel mentioned Phenomenology as the major challenge to this curious branch of philosophy. You could say Phenomenologists continued doing philosophy while the logical positivists developed into mere commentators on other people's work ("Philosophy of ..."). I also thought it a bit far-fetched that the idea that "evidence-based policy making" was a descendant of logical positivism, rather than just of good social science (which is much more influenced by phenomenology, largely for the good, than it cares to admit). I am afraid I was taught philosophy when "continental philosophy" was sneeringly dismissed, and had to discover it myself, so I was a bit miffed that the programme had ignored it. I did though have a smile at the comment that the group had been set up to combat the confusion and disagreement to be had in then current philosophy - then the three of them fell out with each other.

Jane - my sentence on illogical positivism
Fate could not have been kinder! Some interesting responses to read thanks.

John Gunn - Logical Positivism
Somebody said that logical positivism was a needed clearing of the stables. I read language, Truth and Logic at University and found that it was just that. In fact I read a paper to a literary society entitled 'The Semantic Mill' and somehow managed to refer to Carnap. Anyway your programme reminded me of all that and I'm grateful. The point is that for all the obscurities the arguments involved - for a Christian the basic finding seems to be that metaphysical statements have no meaning until they are verifiable. Jesus healed people. Whoever he was , and I do not believe he was God, but the Christ - the ideal 'image and likeness' of God - his works proved that his teachings were correct. He was, you could say, a Christian scientist. - I could go on. Thank you Melvyn for all your letters too.

Logical Positivism
The fact-fixing by what 'our intelligence says' as happened with the dodgy dossier issued in the run up to the case for the war in Iraq illustrates(using logical positivism)WMD was not based on verifiable fact but based on unexamined fear.Howeverit uses the same framework to make itscase.Form subordinates content.

Logical Positivism
What is understood as empiricism seems to actually be 'empiricism as consensus'. There is so much evidence for the lie created by this 'shades of the prison house' (Wordsworth) limited perception that I'm bored to even argue for it. Logical as the use of empiricism was to tighten up science, the residual 'mindsets' do seem to have become a deeply entrenched hindrance. For decades the Russians have been doing diverse research into mind and metaphysics. The Americans claim to have trained people in remote viewing. (Neither were probably of the purest motivation!) Mainstream science would surely do well to take on these boundaries of brain and body....and that would not only keep all camps happy but make a splendid future programme! Best wishes - Jane ps The caveat is obviously that there could be yet more dangers created for our already troubled world.

Violet----Logical Positivism
All the speakers were very clear in their explanation of the topic and it was again a programme which was a gem.Surely the Theory of Relativity indicates that despite there being manypositives in science, science depends onthe perspective of the individual. The individual is the sum of their physical and psychological past and present and the influences thereof. Collectively we are all human beings, yet individually different. Therefore being able to prove completely that any one person, and the rods and cones in their retina can determine completelythe image another person can see is notpossible. This may sound illogical perhaps, but is surely a positive statement in regard to a theory of Relativity. Philosophy tries to make sense of the how and why we are what we are. To understand any theory one must consider how it came into being.Understanding the reasons why any theorybecomes unfashionable is also an interesting topic.

Logical Positivism | M. A. Cherian
A. J. Ayer's absolute certainty of language, Truth and Logic, at 25 in 1936, becomes at 67 in 1978 “ ...nearly all of it was false”, (for source: ask)

Peter Jones: Logical Positivism
Words, words, words!

Reuben Anderson - Shia-Sunna split
Like C Welsh below, I found myself hoping throughout the program that the current day geographical profile would be discussed. My assumption is that present day Shia-Sunni geographical divisions reflect tribal history, that they're as much ethnic as religious. Why is Iran 90% Shia in contrast to it's neighbours.

Royden Hunt, The Sunni-Shia Split
Hi MelvynYes, I agree, that period of our European history is really important to have some idea of. You mention the relationship between the varieties of Islamic law and ethics. Just as interesting and even more significant for this relationship in Europe is the role of the Justinian Code which gave rise to the so-called Civil Law in Europe with its roots in Christian Canon Law and the Justinian Code of late Roman Law. This was in turn modified by the Germanic and Scandinavian influences but remained intact as a basis for the modern Napoleonic French Code and the German Code of Continental Civil Law.So when the UK became a member of the European Union, our Common Law/Case Law tradition had to be reconciled to considerable extent with Civil Law. The House of Lords have done a really good job in my opinion in seeing this through.So what a good 'In Our Time' programme that would make. Start with the Emperor Justinian and end in the House of Lords! It would clear up a lot of misunderstanding about the differences in Law here and on the Continent and your questions and the resulting discussion could be really great.Best wishes for future programmes. Keep them coming BBC.Dr Royden Hunt

Re. Dave Nicholson on jargon...
Forget 'omega', 'quantum' and all that jargon - cross culture is where the vernacular has now pinnacled. My partner 'phoned from a motorbike venture through the Himalayas last week having witnessed a t-shirt proudly worn by one of his bold companions. On the front was a well known brand name and emblazoned across the back a screen print of two crossed table tennis bats and the words 'PRINCE OF PONG'...follow that! Also - 'logical negativism' is - and I jest not - incredibly powerful if we have the courage and stamina to venture there. 'Illogical positivism' might just come up with the occasional unexpected trump card because logic can limit and thus at a certain point become negative. 'Illogical Negativism'...nah..I'll leave that one for others! Best wishes to all - Jane

Tom Milner-Gulland - Logical Positivism
In the final analysis the argument for General Relativity's being a logical or empirical conduit to the 'logical positivist' framework is entirely opaque. I suspect it was a sycophantic attachment.I always like the analogy, for scientific practice, of using litmus paper as the test of a liquid's being acid. It goes red. But, I'll add, there wasn't any redness to begin with; where did the redness come from? Surely it is an 'acid test' that confirms that the ontology your test relies on is not the ontology you are testing.

James Baring - Logical Positivism
Excellent, enlightening, educational and delightfully inconclusive. Philosophy like other flowerings of civilization proceeds by thesis, antithesis and synthesis. The synthesis becomes a thesis in a new context, the context being altered by the aforementioned exploration which expands our horizons. Once it was thought that it was either raining or not raining. Next we knew that it can be raining here but not there. Then we learned that all rain starts as snow. Then that there are considerations of scale to be considered before the rain could effectively be detected subjectively anywhere, never mind dimensions of space-time... The Logical Positivists were a vital antithesis to their predecessors' theses, but still just part of the process.Some of those who can't be bothered with the process just pick a religion.

J. J. Prescott on Logical Positivism
Although all three of your contributors were clearly highly articulate and extremely well informed I found it disturbing that anyone listening to these ideas that hadn't got a background in philosophy would go away believing that logical positivism was a sound philosophical theory and not the discredited set of ideas that were rendered completely redundant by Karl Popper and his ideas of falsifiability.JP.

Logical Positivism
Interesting discussion on a dead philosophical concept,as so many of them are,but then that is how this programme catches its listeners,turning what appears as if it is going to be a sow's ear in to a silk purse. Well done. Now can we have the same treatment for Humanism and Existentialism,my current philosophical concerns? Thanks in advance.Patrick M.

Logical Positivism
The use of science and logic to cut away dead tissue in the worlds of religion,politics and German philosophy.Hegelianism,Kant’s Critique of Reason,metaphysics,German romanticism,loose.woolly and abstract thinking were all casualties. The Vienna Circle were pro Marx , pro Einstein ,pro Russell&Frege.Mathematics was reduced to logic,all that was untestable fell away.Using physics as a model, they developed a proper use of scientific knowledge.The General Theory of Relativity had been proved in 1919 by the observation of light passing the sun during an eclipse. Metaphysical and religious disputes became vapour trails. Philosophy became the hand-maiden of science.Interactions,experiences in the physical world around us became the only reality, the only support for philosophy.Einstein’s theoriesreplaced Newton’s after 300 years. The Vienna Circle saw that science could be proved by observation & experiment.Logic was the powerful tool to clarify the theories and concepts of science.What scientific concepts mean is determined by the way they are verified. How we know what we know became a leading criterion.What cognitive control do we have over these things?The chief tenet of logicalpositivism is the verifiable concept of meaning. Cognitive meaningfulness comes only if there is a procedure for conclusively determining if something is true or false(aesthetics,theology and ethics fall outside).Propositions need to be intelligible, understandable and have a truth value in the same sense as scientific statements do.So there were 3 categories logical positivists put statements into:i)true,ii) falseand iii) meaningless. The two statements said to have meaning are:1) those which are tautological e.g. propositions of logic and mathematics and,2) those which can be tested by sense experience.In some way the V.C. took over the old empiricist tradition of Hume.Shlick’sapproach of our phenomenal experience led to idealism according to Neurath and Carnap.Fundamental statements must be statements about physical objects not inner experience or sense impressions. Neurath compared science to a boat we must rebuild on the open sea.This is the public enterprise of science.V.C. had a commitment to ‘unified science’i.e. the development of a common language in which all scientific propositions can be expressed.A programme on philosophy should take on all sides ofan argument. Not enough was said about the criticisms and failure of logical positivism.It cleared the ground but what they tried to build on that ground isn’t standing up.Popper thought there was a lot that was unverifiable about science and he preferred to use the principle of falsifiability. Scientific theories could never be proved true.His demarcation line was between science and non-science and he believed there were many meaningful things in non-science. Ayer came to realize you couldn’t verify a lot of statements. The analytical-synthetic principle has been put in question by Quine and the reduction of statements to immediate experience. Putnam expressed an awareness of the difficulty of evading the theory-laden ness of observation statements.This is why L.P.died away in the 70s.However the programmewas a useful run through of the history and context of the movement.

Logical Positivism
Melvyn need not have worried - this was a superb programme. I think that the words 'the living dead' aptly coined the place of this movement in the present scheme of things. It occurred to me that philosophy should spend more time on the nature of individuality. Much as the word is bandied about by all and sundry, the 'collective' usurps it every time - even 'though this collective is the agglomeration of its parts. Logical Positivism was (admirably) embodied by particular humans whose objective involvement with empiricism was still a part of their subjective individual natures. I must stop before I disappear up my own.....! Large thanks to all involved for the continued excellence. Very best wishes - Jane

Dave Nicholson Positive logicalism
I tried to listen all the way through but could not. Will download and try again. But my brain has got wary of political and marketing jargon. You know, book with omega or quantum in the title. Or food claims to be organic. Peter Sellers did a brilliant “ we must go into the future looking backwards at our glorious past.” Sketch once. So it switches off automatically with its jargon detector.Thames Valley police used to have a mission statement (jargon in itself, like Investors in People.) It went “ …..towards diminishing crime………..”only towards it!So the opposite of Logical Positivism must be Illogical Negativism.Ok That is what this contribution is but who can be in favour of Illogical Negativism every day??

david Damant - Logical Positivism
I once [over dinner]asked Ayer when it was that he realised that his point that statements were meaningless unless true by definition or by empirical test entailed that his own statement to this effect was meaningless. He replied that he still in his heart believed his proposition. I said that in that case he was just as bad as the metaphysicians and theologians that he had criticised. "Yes" he replied with glee "I am"

Michael Gordon-Williams/ Sunni-Shia
An excellent taster to a subject that whilst so important to all our lives remains a mystery to most of us. I for one shall dig deeper. That said, what of the ducks......surely we need more. There must be some from UCL et al on the case. Thanks for the programmes even though many pass my singular grey cell by.

The Sunni/Shia Split 25/06/2009
Amen to your ultimate remark "I hope we'll go back to this period" and indeed to amplify the scope to deal with the likes of Sufi mysticism? Which leads me to wonder is there yet a coherent book dealing with the subjects you covered;if not might you consider sponsoring such???Oh yes,why not add as footnote the names and affiliation of your contributors so if one wants to follow up their publications it would be a suitable starting point.Regards, IJS

C. Cameron Shia - Sunni split
Excellent! Very enjoyable and enlightening discussion.Thank you

I.Maire-Shia-Sunni Split
By coincidence I finished reading Barnaby Rogerson's, 'The Heirs of the Prophet Muhammad', the day before the programme. This covered the same ground as your excellent programme and I would strongly recommend it.

Frances Hampson - Shia - Sunni split
Very interesting programme and agree with another listener tha we need more info on this subject. Also concerned about the ducks in St James`s Park. Please continue your investigation.

Re.: Malcolm Chishom and John Ellis McTaggart
Thanks for that. Maybe we ideally need a programme on consciousness and time. Entropy appears to validate a certain physics to time, but consciousness may lie in very different relationship to it. Also, our narrow and habitual nomenclature may drastically limit our concepts....and more importantly, our percepts. Best wishes.

AW. The ducks. Plus, excellent series.
I emailed the website for St James's Park asking if they would contact Mr Bragg to discuss the absence of the ducks with him. I'm afraid I received no reply but perhaps he would have more success if he contacted them himself. This seems the best way to find information, if there is any available.Sorry, I know this is irrelevant here but surely it's a way to put his mind at rest and we can get back to reading about the glorious doings of the park etc., in his newsletter.Plus could IOT be given the extra 15mins? It's a fascinating programme and gives discussion unavailable anywhere else to many people. Ann

Witless Writer
I heard the show -- definitely a great hear, especially since I've heard the biased variations and a curious one at that. Overall impartial but I felt that there were some points that were inadvertently made: it's very subtly anti-Shia and that it was inadvertently suggested that democracy is a non-existent concept in Islam and that's just not true with that since Islamic rules clearly state the need and requirement for a democractically elected leader. A very interesting show, though!

Sunni Shia divide
A very interesting programme thank you. Whilst we're on the subject of the 'word of God', I'll mention a book which I found in my local library last week. It's called 'Whose Word Is It?' by Bart D. Ehrman and relates to the New Testament. The inside cover reads: '...this is the first time that a leading biblical scholar reveals for the general reader the many challenging - even disturbing - early variations of our cherished biblical stories and why only certain versions of those stories qualify for publication in the Bibles we read today.' It's not a fun book but it's thought provoking - especially in its summing up. (St Paul's writings obviously get a fair mention). Very best wishes to all. Jane

C Welch - Sunni and Shia Split
This was excellent - for me one of the best IOT programmes I have heard for a long time. Given the general level of ignorance about Islam amongst (non Muslum) British people, it should perhaps be required listening in all schools. However, the programme left many questions unanswered - for instance, what happened next? which countries are today predominantly Shia and which Sunni? What about the northern Mediterannean countries - are these Shia or Sunni? Please, oh please, let us have Part II on this intriguing subject, bearing in mind the number of IOT programmes on Christianity.

Malcolm Chisholm - The Physics of Time
The subtitle of this programme asked if time was "even real". I realize it was about physics, but I was desperately hoping that the panelists would deal with John Ellis McTaggart's proof of the unreality of time, published in Mind (1908). They did talk in the language of McTaggart with past, present, and future - and the notion that the future will be past and the past has been future. But if you ask if time is real, as this programme did, you simply have to confront McTaggart. His proof is very well known, and McTaggart himself was interesting, being an atheist who believed in immortality. He thought a further reality lay behind time, which we might not be able to perceive, but which we could think of. A pity none of this was even mentioned. Malcolm Chisholm, Holmdel NJ, USA.

Penny on Wittgenstein from 2003
I heard this programme when it was broadcast and have been meaning to listen again ever since. Now six years later...! I just wanted to request a related topic for a future programme - What would BF Skinner be able to contribute to 21st century problems? - you might not see the connection with Wittgenstein, but as a psychologist, I do.

Michael Clegg - Islam
The excellent and scholarly content of melvyn Braggs programs is sometimes affected by his fuzzy diction, particularly of names and dates - rather important in history. I had to rely on his guests who spoke far more clearly to correct what I had mis-heard from the professional broadcaster!Don't mumble MELVYN!!

Sunni Shia Split
Is there any more info on the concept of Tahiya. My interest in the concept is in the fact that 'Tahiya' imitates problems encountered in immunology. Grateful for any references of info.

Tom Hawksley - Sunnis and Shias
Apart from the history, the point made about theology was fascinating: that there was little if any, it was all about politics. The fate of the Shia Imams underlines this: ten of them met violent deaths, so though the academic quickly tried to change the meaning of 'going into hiding', I suspect if most of us were a young Imam to be, we might want to do just that.

Michael Healy June 25
Just as good as usual - how do you maintain the variety of subject?A mild suggestion - what about a 'Further Reading' item somewhere for those who would like to take things further?

Sunni-Shia Divide
The Sunni-Shi’a split was a good programme as we need to be enlightened about Islam. I gathered that Sunnis are the majority(85%) of believers of Islam and areregarded as the orthodox whereas Shi’ites are classed as heretics.However they both share the same belief in the Qu’ran. Because Islam originated in Saudi Arabia inMecca and Medina it is regarded as the motherland of all believers.We know about the importance of the pilgrimage to Mecca. Iran is 90% Shi’a. Iraq has a Sunni minority(formerly in power under Saddam Hussein) and a majority of Shi’ites. We know the dispute who should succeed the Prophet had little to do with doctrine, more to do with the fact Mohammed never said how his successor was to be chosen. Thefirst two caliphs were both companions of the Prophet, Abu Bekr(632-34) and Omar(634-44). They received general support because of their seniority,but Omar was assassinated after 10 years. Both Sunni and Shi’a factions continued to argue about a true successor.The latter thought Ali(son-in-law and cousin) should be the caliph,due to the bloodline. However Uthman , a Meccan aristocrat, became the 3rd Caliph.He was opposed for favouring his own tribe and assassinated by rebels from Iraq and Egypt ,seen as usurper by the Shi’ites. Ali was next in line,with close ties to Mohammed by marriage. Under these first 4 caliphs the greatest conquests and military advances were made, reuniting Arabian tribes in the Arabian peninsular,the Islamic empire stretching east to the Hindu Kush,north to the Caucasus and west to north Africa. Ali did not oppose opposition to Uthman and he is tainted by his desire to arbitrate rather than fight, the Syrians saying ‘God should decide’, whose governor Moawiya becomes the new caliph and new power in Islam due to the conquests.His revolt marks the end of the ‘Mohammedan’ and the beginning of the Arabic period of Islam. This was the Arabic elite formerly excluded from Mohammed’s inner circle. This period of the Omayyad caliphate(661-750) was the period when the political interests of the Arabs were given precedence over the religious interests of Islam. Hussein, the last of the bloodline ,invited to seize the caliphate in Iraq, was done to death with his followers on the way. The martyrdom of Hussein is a pivotal event in the Shi’ite movement and their narrated persecutions.In this era non-Arabic converts to Islam, the mawali, were not given equality with the Moslems. However Greek philosophy and science were discussed freely. The Abbassid caliphate(750-1258) was the 3rd great period of the Islamic Empire centred in Bagdad. The policy of the Empire was based not on the interests of the Arabs so much as on the religious interests of Islam, a return to the apostolic custom of Mohammed. However in truth it was a return to the ceremonial of the pagan PersianEmpire transforming the caliphate into an oriental monarchy. Religious unity was the only conceivable foundation of Empire Every rebellion took on the form of a religious heresy and within a hundred years of this caliphate the Islamic Empire had ceased to exist. Persia, Spain, Morocco and Egypt were independent states,each with its own caliph, declaring that he and he alone was the rightful successor.You informedus that the Shi’te technique of survival was‘dissimulation’, hiddenness,to preserve the community from attack by the Sunnis. Immams became hidden with no community leader But you end saying they are now very similar in the way that both sects turn to scholars to interpret the Qu’ran.Radical clerics from one sectmay still demean those from another.

FMLunnon, Sunni and Shia
It did seem a terrific missed opportunity not to have two speakers who were adherents. I feel much better briefed about Muhammad's successors, but largely in the dark about how it feels now to be Sunni or Shia.

Ali R : Sunni/Shia split
The programme was a reasonable attempt to capture the essence of the split between Sunni and Shia within the Islamic community, using scholars who themselves are not affiliated to either side. However, I fear that people with vested interests from both sides of this "split Moslem family" will soon enough start to voice their concerns about particular innaccuracies in the programme that do special injustice to their side of the schism. If that was all that were to happen, then one could argue that the BBC have engaged in a useful piece of education and the ensuing healthy debate. I fear, however, that the two sides of this community do not yet know how to engage in healthy debate. You just need to look at Iraq and other parts of the world where Sunni and Shia continue their quarrels to this day.....and they hurl more than mere insults at each other.They forget what their Prophet Muhammad stood for.Ali R

Peter Bolt :Sunni/Shia
Lucid,entertaining, and very informative. What else is there to say ?

Mr B S Freeguard
Today's programme was most enlightening. Well done for what seemed to be an unbiased, academic based observation into the beginnings of Islam. I would be intrigued to know what the response to this edition is from the muslim community.

Sunni-Shia-divide
The talk/discussion on the Sunni/Shia succession was very interesting and this book will give a clear account of the history and reasons for the split following Muhammad's death (at least I thought so). The Heirs of the Prophet Muhammad: And the Roots of the Sunni-Shia Schism by Barnaby Rogerson

Beth - Titus Andronicus
Grateful thanks to the person who mentioned the Oliver 1950'sproduction. For some fifty years I've recalled the impression the play made on me. As an enthusiastic Aus.teenager I'd seen Laurence Olivier and Vivian Leigh in Sydney on their tour after the war. I started saving to come to England (Sea trip took five weeks & four days and ticket cost £50 for shared cabin) and I'm still here! Great memories of Stratford, Old Vic, Royal Court etc. I was sure I'd seen Titus Andronicus staged in a London theatre - a very powerful & haunting performance in which the actors utilised long red streamers to symbolise blood, and there's so much of it! I wonder if any other 50's play-goer can confirm this imaginative interpretation of the play's stage directions which must be a difficult aspect of the live performance? Was Oliver also the director?

Alan Logsdail - Titus Andronicus
The BBC TV production of Titus Andronicus of 1985 and directed by Jane Howell is quite superb and has powerful and moving performances by Trevor Peacock, Eileen Atkins, Hugh Quarshie and others. The snag is you have to buy the complete set of 37 dvds to see it!

Martin Aaron - end of Jacobean drama podcast
ohhh...! Sunni and Shia!Was I the only person who thought Melvyn said "Next week, the split between Sonny and Cher in the 7th Century."?Must get new hearing aid

REVENGE
Hamlet questions the ETHICS of revenge?? When does he say anything like "Maybe I SHOULDN'T do this"? He's all for it, he just can't DO it, and he tells us WHY. Thinking too precisely. ('Conscience' in 'To be' doesn't mean MORAL conscience, it means Thought). The play is not ABOUT revenge, revenge is its DEVICE to explore a much deeper question: the relationship of thought to action in rational man.

YY
I generally like the podcasts - they would profit from adding a few minutes on "modern day relevance" for each topic though. Latest example - revenge drama - the potentially very interesting discussion on modern day equivalents (Eastwood, Tarantino) was shut down immediately...

Nik - General
Put all series on Audio CD or MP3 downloads from the BBC Shop. Fantastic series. Informative, absorbing and Melvyn Bragg makes its so worth while listening. Makes me happy to pay the licence fee. Well done BBC!

John A (Brentford) - Sunni and Shia split
Am looking forward to next week's programme. I have always felt that 30 minutes is too brief to do your guests full justice. For example, if next week's programme was, say, 60 minutes, it may have time to cover the reunion as the popular 1960s recording act.

Stevie; revenge tragedy
Interesting discussion, but I was surprised that a) there was no mention of the rise of the Jacobean private theatres (the discussion only took account of the outdoor playhouses and performances at court); b) very little discussion of the centrality of women in many of the tragedies (although I think Julie Sanders tried to introduce this late in the debate); c) an assumption that revenge tragedy ended with Middleton - John Ford would be miffed; and d) the persistence of the intentional fallacy... the idea that we knew what Shakespeare was thinking, or what he was trying to say about the morality of revenge when writing Hamlet. Jeepers. It's as if critical theory never happened.

re. Mike A - St Paul and miracles
So - miracles. Have to say that I also smiled when I heard that philosophers now allow miracles. Anybody familiar with the work of the late Harry Edwards will not need confirmation from such intellectuals. He was a dear man and an exemplary healer who each day, quietly and unpretentiously, showed that the physics of the physical isn't as limited as it might generally appear. As for Mike's remark, I would offer this Ambrose Bierce quotation: 'Absurdity' - 'A statement or belief manifestly inconstant with one's own opinion.' Best wishes....and thanks for the St Paul programme which, as so often happens, left us with more questions than answers, reflecting our oh so frustrating lot!

John-Elizabethan & Jacobean Revenge Tragedy
The contrast between taking justice in one’s own hands and the law of the state seem to be at the root of revenge plays. As you said this wild justice puts the law out of office. We also have the contrast between pagan, Senecan forms of justice andChristian ideas of conscience and mercy. The state is trying to take full control.Things that came up were 1) use of ghosts to haunt the living with the crime,usually children of the victims.2) barnstorming language and rhetoric(hence popularity);3)the play-within-the-play;4) madness feigned and real;5)multiple revenges;6)revenge crime surpassing original crime(e.g. children served up in pies: Titus Andronicus and Thyestes);7)influenceof Seneca;8) murder of the good by the bad;9)a period of disguises;10)eruptions of violence and catastrophe;11) use of soliloquy to unpack emotion.The English playwrights use the revenge plot to explore themes of decadence and corruption in the late Elizabethan/Jacobean courts. The influence of legalistic issuesand the Inns of Court are brought to bear upon older medieval concepts of justice.As in Beowulf we have writers looking back to pagan sources and mourning their passing. In Hamlet we we get reflective conscience to doubt simple acts of revenge.We still get bodies.There is the interrogation of the simple ethic of revenge: what would you do in Hamlet’s place? So a strong Christian context and the idea of divinity hedging the king.A battle between classical pagan codes and Christian notions of forgiveness.Patterns of revenge are given contemporary resonance in the history play with their dynastic, factional disputes. Jonathan Bate told how plays were summoned to be played at court and playwrights were sailing close to the wind, hence the unknownauthor of The Revenger’s Tragedy(probably Middleton). This is cynical towards the Jacobean court, known for its corruption, and shows an unremitting savagery.There is a threatening gleefulness in the death-dealing climax of the masque-within-a-play. This plays with the mechanics of revenge-the use of abstracted names to give essence of character(Vindice), the macabre use of the poisoned skull to trick the duke to kiss it,the use of the masque to assassinate and murder,the corrupt family unit, the restoration and the moral conclusion. I thought everycontributor was equally good at moving the subject along or bringing somethingnew to bear and Melvyn was at home in this subject.

Col Farrell re Revenge Tragedy
I know of no real evidence that the Bard allowed his plays to be slashed to fit a "two hours' traffic" limit. Surely the point is that they acted it quicker: no complex scene or lighting changes,no indulgent pauses or naturalistic meandering. Plot detail is reiterated to allow the audience to catch up if they missed it the first time. The axing of Fortinbras and "How all occasions..." is always a regrettable loss. I'm glad to see from the Home Page that next week is about the Sunni and Shia split not, as I thought I heard it, a spat early on in the career of Sonny and Sher. C.F.

Melvyn Bragg Titus Andronicus
As a student in London in the early 50's I saw Laurence Olivier and Vivian Leigh in Titus Andronicus. During the pie scene the whole audience screamed. I have never forgotten it.

Jeff (Oakland, CA, USA) ........Hmmmmm...
Scrolling down the list of programme titles on your "Current Series Archive" page, I noted with some amusement that there were six degrees of separation between HEAT and HELL. Probably meaningless, but it could be some "force" using the subconsciousness of your scheduling person or team to let weather-obsessed Jungians know that wintertime is about to begin "down there," just as in Australia.

Mark Hollingworth - The Augustan Age
How about a programme sometime on Ovid's Metamorphoses and its influence (or has this been done already?)?

Mark Reid - requests
I don't know if you take requests - I imagine not as I'm sure you have masses of ideas already. But if you don't ask you don't get. Any chance of a programme exploring the myths surrounding the English Oak?

Nisaba -- Augustus
There was a rather good radio play about Ovid a year or two ago. It presented him as an aesthete out of his depth in politics, speculated about what exactly he did to incur his exile, and generally had a gripping storyline. Repeat please!

Peter Household - Augustus
How clear was it at the time that the Republic had become the Empire? How well do these two English words translate the Latin?

Peter Bolt : Ovid
Having just read Melvyns newsletter I confidently predict a huge rise in the sales (or should that be sails) of Ars Amatoria.

Jim Entwistle - in our time
I just wanted to say how much I value and enjoy "in our time" - and how wonderful it is to have past programmes available on archive. A truly life enhancing service - arguably worth the licencee fee by itself! Thank you, BCC.

Augustus
A good programme and discussion.Thanks.Augustus had a lot to live down following Caesar,who crossed the Rubicon of legality,consorted with Cleopatra,making himself dictator for life and monarch of the empire for life. He embodied the idea of the god-king from Egypt. The expiring of Romanrepublicanism flared up in Caesar's stabbing.After the defeat of his only remaining rival Mark Anthony at Actiumin 31BC, Octavian became sole master of the Roman world.He had no foolish craving to be god or king,he had no queen-lover to dazzle,he restoredfreedom to the senate and people of Rome.He declined to be dictator.The grateful senate gave him the realityand not the forms of power. He was not to be called'King' but 'Princeps' and'Augustus'. He became 'Augustus Caesar'the first of the Roman emperors.His reign was notable for peace,finding Rome a city of brick and turning it into a city of marble. Patron of the arts,writers like Horace,Virgil and Ovid flourished and Augustus cleverlyused whatever forms of propaganda wereavailable to express his image and Rome's history,using them to unite hisempire and people.He abhored vices and immorality hence his treatment of his aldulterous daughter and offspring andhis exile of Ovid.As you say he was respected by the Roman people for doingthis.Augustus had a hand in creating the roads and the aqueducts and he restored the temples and worship of the ancestral gods,'to pay for sins' asHorace declared in his Odes.His aim wasclear:by reinstating traditional values, the madness of the immediate past would be forgotten and venerationof the Roman state gods would bring afurther degree of unity to war-torn Italy.

Ned : Augustus - character and personality
We have an excellent thumbnail here of Augustus and his public virtues, vices , principles and practices, but I would like a closer analysis of his personality. In the wonderful TV series we had the emperor played by Brian Blessed - nothing if not ebullient - but an exquisite reworking of Augustus in Allan Massie's eponymous 1986 historical reconstruction has him as a slight, aesthetic, if not effete individual, with an abhorrence of physical deformity,and this is much in keeping with the images we have of him - including the one superimposed on the 'Play it Again' webpage. This side of Augustus would bear further investigation by Melvyn et al.

Melvin Hurst - St. Paul
Fascinating stuff, but the most interesting question, of whether Christianity would have been the same without the influence of Paul, was left to the very end, with only a few seconds for each contributor to give a, not very satisfactory, answer. The more intriguing question should have been "Would Christianity ever have become a world religion without Paul's work, or would it have languished as a local phenomenon and eventually died out?" I suspect that the answer to this is the latter alternative.

Jane Balderson Ovid's Metamorpheses
I found the programme on Augustus fascinating but the part about Ovid too short. Could you do a programme just about Ovid's Metamorpheses? I keep seeing it referred to as a source for paintings and literature and would love to know more about it. Where did Ovid get all the stories from and why did he put them all in one poem - was he paid or commisioned?I find all Melvyn's programmes brilliant- nothing else like them - he has the gift of asking the very question the listener is asking themselves and somehow makes the academics explain things simply and clearly. Looking forward to Revenge Drama next week.

Gilbert Hall; Tense
I would like to add my vote against the constant use of the historical present tense. I can see that its occasional use can make for dramatic effect. But using it everywhere is very annoying. It's a bit like having everything printed in capital letters. It seems to be a fashion. What's behind its spread?

Mike A - St Paul
I chuckled at the suggestion that contemporary philosophers no longer consider miracles to be absurd. Yet another reason not to take them seriously...

Jo Hawk Use of the present historic
When did historians begin using the present tense when discussing past events? I suppose they believe that this device renders historic events more dramatic. Personally I find it distracting. Often it leads to absurd locutions. For example, today one contributor said: "Augustus gets looked back to as..." How am I supposed to concentrate on what is being said when I get looked back on how it's said?

James Baring - Augustan Age
Illuminating and enlightening, a great team, the first time I have ever really understood the significance of much of what was covered in spite of previous attempts.

Ian Buist, C.B. Augustus
This interesting programme unfortunately missed a few important points.After Actium, Augustus (as he became)at first tried to "work the system" by occupying one of the consulates every year. But this cut in half the traditional career opportunities for the ruling class in the Senate, and eventually there seems to have been an attempted revolt headed by his fellow-consul for 23 B.C. This unfortunate had his name scrubbed off every monument - literally written out of history - and replaced by his compliant successor (adscripted to the job for the rest of the year), except on one or two monuments - which is how we know about what must have happened. Thereafter Augustus ceased to occupy the consulate, and instead built on the (few) powers held by the tribunes -as all his successors also did. [The post of "dictator" was clearly out.] But beyond this, as was pointed out, he had the loyalty of the Army, and that was secured by the "sacramentum", the oath taken by all troops.In effect, Augustus then created a dyarchy, leaving the Senate to govern the old traditional provinces, and so maintaining the old "cursus honorum", but putting the others under his direct rule. Egypt - where he was in practice the Pharaoh - was forbidden territory to every Senator."Augustus" was not a name - pace Melvyn - but a title. Its subtlety arises from its being a translation of the Greek "Sebastos", which had connotations of divinity (as under some of the post-Alexander rulers). It had the merit of calling to the worshipping loyalty of the Greek-speaking subjects of the East, but not implying, in its Latin form, any claim to divinity in the west.It is striking that Augustus chose as the public watchword "Roma et Augustus" - linking his own personality with the whole Roman state and history. Tiberius, on his accession, was more careful and chose "Tiberius et Senatus".The Augustan deal was extremely clever. Instead of changing or monoplising the system, Augustus built into it an institutional cuckoo in the nest, to which, despite the formalities (which he was very careful to preserve) all power seeped away from the original ruling bodies to the Imperial household (fed by the "fiscus").I think it was Prof. Syme who argued that Augustus had moved "from imperium to auctoritas", but in fact the reverse was surely true - the symbols of his "auctoritas" from 23 BC onwards swiftly drew the reality of power into themselves.

Colin - general commet,
Thank you for the best programme on any subject on radio or television. It's nice that there are still programmes of an intelligent nature on the media.

Roger Dickinson, the rise of atheism
Having spent most of the last 3 years living and working in Libya, a nation more conservatively Islamic some would argue than Saudi Arabia, I have become more interested in the nature of belief and the growth of atheism.I was fascinated by last week's discussion about the trial of Charles I, but hoped that someone might have commented upon the effect that the regicide had upon religious belief in Britain. Did the lack of divine intervention, other than having to put up with Cromwell et al, have an adverse effect upon Christian faith?Should anyone care to comment or recommend appropriate texts, I'd be most grateful. No Biblical tosh, please.

John Leake - St. Paul
An excellent programme on St Paul. John Haldale's contribution was particularly good. Making an earlier comment, Louise Taylor said: "[...] Melvyn Bragg stopped the contributor who was talking about the development of St. Augustine's theology based upon St. Paul from moving on to discuss Karl Barth. The next contributor spoke about Martin Luther and, as Melvyn seemed to imply, the good news that we didn't need the Church in order to be saved, in other words, the doctrine of justification by faith alone. But this is not the end of the debate by any means and it was wrong from the programme to end here. [...] why was Luther given the last word?"I think that's a bit unfair - remember the incredible time constraints. John Haldane (who was actually stopped from moving on to Luther) spoke on Augustine. John Barclay then spoke on Luther (each had 2.5 minutes) and Melvyn had to drop his question on Barthes due to lack of time; instead he asked Helen Bond a vaguer question on Paul's language (she had 1 minute) before asking the important question of what Christianity would have been like without Paul (1 minute). All clear and in seven minutes!But that suggests to me that IOT must do a programme on Augustine soon, both as theologian and philosopher. I'm amazed, looking at the archives, that one hasn't seem to have been done yet.

Peter Household - Charles I
I think David Wootton said not being allowed defence counsel was standard for treason trials. This was at minute 14:45 on the podcast. The reply was swallowed so I couldn't make it out - could this information be confirmed? As to no plea, strange the court didn’t entered a not guilty plea on Charles’s behalf, seeing as they were making the rules up anyway. (I think this is how Milosevic was proceeded against by the UN's International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia for crimes against humanity in Kosovo. I may be wrong on this, but I'm sure it has been done in recent history).

Richard King -- general
I would enjoy In Our Time a lot more if Melvyn was a little nicer to his guests.

Kevin Gleig: re Charles I
Dear Melvyn Bragg thanks, as usual, for your newsletter; the King Charles I trial programme was one of your best, in an extremely good series On the House of Lords, I put forward ideas 30 years ago, as a civil servant, that politicians disliked; mainly on the grounds that they tipped the balance of power too far towards the electorate, and away from the professional polliticians who know better... Without boring you with all the detail, I proposed reform of the Lords and the Commons at the same time. I did not accept then, and the Big Brother TV series has proved, that the public cannot cope with complicated vote-counting systems, or with making choices. I suggested: House of Commons 150 constituencies, each returning 3 MPs; election by modified single transferable vote - the computer can do the bit where the bottom candidate drops out, and his votes redistributed, until one person has 50+% of the voters; then the same until a second candidate has 50+%; then (controversial, I know) if the two so far elected are both male, then remove and redistribute until there is a female candidate with 50+%, but if one of the first two is female, then the third candidate is by the same means as the other two. There's a bit of fancy computer programming involved; but the public simply have to list some or all candidates in whatever order they choose (for example, a Labour constituency may vote in a candidate who is a local Councillor, in preference to either a sitting MP whose expenses offend, or a "parachuted" HQ person). In addition to the 450 elected MPs, there will be 30 MPs appointed by the governing party; they will be able to act as MPs as quasi-substitutes for 30 elected MPs who are appointed Government Ministers, including being able to vote in their place (there will be only 450 votes counted, but this will avoid the nonsense of Government Ministers flying halfway round the world to vote, or being distracted by constuency matters - for example, the Prime Minister's surrogate could telephone Simon Cowell on his behalf) House of Lords Two routes to membership: by appointment, as now, so that the massive pool of expertise remains available to the nation; no limit on numbers, but the House (and only the House) to have power to elect an appointed Noble Lord or Lady to a paid post on a Scrutiny Committee, to look at a particular piece of legislation within his or her area of knowledge; Appointed Peers will have the right to speak, but not to vote. In addition, 150 Peers will be elected by Region / country; the Government will set five or six electoral systems, and each Region's electorate can choose the system it fancies. Elected Peers will have the right to speak and also the right to vote; Whipping will be forbidden. This is a quick summary, but I think it is a workable scheme. It may well lead to a coalition Government, ie a Government built on the votes of more than half of the voting electorate - is that a bad thing? Next time you're doing a programme on electoral reform, perhaps you'd bear in mind that there are many people out here with ideas regards Kevin Gleig

Brian Smith, Charles I
Splendid interventions by Diane Purkiss. The others sounded a bit lachrymose about poor Charles, but Purkiss's remarks were more realistic. I regard In our time as a university of the air, and this was one of the best so far, I think.

John- The Trial of Charles I
‘He nothing common did or meanUpon that memorable scene’ said Marvell in his Horation Ode. This depicted the great dignity of Charles and his noble death. After which the Protectorate crumbled. Milton published republican protests even as the Restoration loomed. After,copies of his works were publicly burned .In danger of execution he was a fugitivethen a prisoner, though after payment of a massive fine he was retired due to the intercession of Marvell and D’Avenant. Marvell protected him after the Restoration. Milton had written pamphlets attacking monarchy and justifying the regicide of Charles I, The Tenure of Kings and Magistrates and Eikonoklastes, a riposte to a work attributed to the king, Eikon Basilike (The Royal Image). In his retirement he completed Paradise Lost. The Eikon Basilike was authored by the Bishop ofWinchester, John Gauden. It was represented as the prayers and meditations of Charles I during his imprisonment and published on the day of the king’s burial,9 February 1649, running to 40 editions before the Restoration in 1660. Gaudenprobably compiled his book from the notes and memoranda left by Charles, and succeeded remarkably well in presenting the late king as a royal martyr. We still live in a royalist or monarchical parliament, only the power now resides in the Presidential office of Prime Minister. Look how hard the rebels are findingit to remove him due to them lacking a creditable candidate. No one is powerful enough to wield the blade. Perhaps the king-maker now is Alistair Darling! Does parliament even today represent the sovereignty of the people?Let's see.

Andy - Peterborough re Charles I
The things I learn lying in bed on my day off! Thank you again for a great programme. I usually prefer the science-based topics but this was really illuminating. Thank you.PS my daughter and I rested in the park in St James Square last week - definitely no ducks there...

James Woodard - use of the present tense!
The broadcast about the trial of Charles 1st was very nearly unintelligible by the contributors' continual use of the present continuous tense for events which had happened in the past. When using this approach, a serious problem arises when the speaker has to described an event that happened in the subjects future. Is the past tense being phased out?It is a serious question and worthy of some investigation. Why do educated people use this tense to describe the past? I ask because very many presenters of TV documentaries no longer use the past tense as a matter of course.

Andrew Titcombe St James Park -Ducks
Reference your (excellent) newsletter - The ducks still thrive on the pond at Highmoor Mansions -now cleaned out and "refurbished"

Kath Potter Trial of Charles Ist
What an interesting programme! Like Julian Chapman I was fascinated -- and horrified, to learn about the practise of crushing those that would not plead.During this week's show, several points were made which I had not considered -- most informative!

Tom Merrington - St Paul
Of course Christianity would not have taken hold without Paul, though doubtless another contender - perhaps Mithraism - would have flourished instead. You could say Christianity is the 2000 year inflation of Paul's hallocinogenic 'bubble'! I wonder if he was chewing some hedgerow 'herb' on his way to Damascus.

Andy Thompson ----- In Our Time
The best programme on radioPlease please make the archives available as Podcasts

julian chapman re tense
I have just learned by switching on part way in to the programme that if a person on trial will not plead he is crushed to death. I was not aware that this is the case!

Peter Bolt :Charles I
You very nearly turned me into a Royalist.

Sue Rook - The trial of Charles I
Just to thank everyone concerned for a truly enjoyable programme this morning. It should be used as a template for what the BBC does best. Melvyn chaired with even handedness and the resultant discussion was fascinating. Thank you so much. You've made my morning.

Alex McGregor - Trial of Charles 1st
Listening to the programme today, I heard frequent references to England and the English people from both Melvyn Bragg and other contributers in connection with the trial and not once from a British perspective. Charles 1st was of course king of the United Kingdom then. Are we missing something and was the event more focused on England due to events there. What did the remainder of the United Kindom think of it then given it was also their king who was on trial. Perhaps the contributors might have made this clearer for listeners in other parts of the UK.

Graeme Cox - St. Paul : You're Missing the Point
I've read alot of the comments on the St. Paul programme, mainly anti Paul, and you are all missing the point. What is of import here are the changes in the spiritual/ pyschological make up of mankind during this period. When you understand this you would realise that who preached what and who got the upper hand is neither here nor there as the outcome would have been the same i.e. where we are now, today, was inevitable.You would then understand what was going on in Paul on the road to Damascusand why they felt they had moved into a new age.All your academic diatribe and prolixity is superfluous and worthless waffle. You shouldn't be looking at the past but should be considering the future as we move towards some more changes.

In Our Time - Whales
I subscribe to In Our Time through iTunes and it appears that it has skipped a week, missing out the program on whales and their evolution. Is it just me or have any other iTunes subscribers not been able to get this episode ?

Louise Taylor - St. Paul
The subject was well presented up to a point. However, Melvyn Bragg stopped the contributor who was talking about the development of St. Augustine's theology based upon St. Paul from moving on to discuss Karl Barth. The next contributor spoke about Martin Luther and, as Melveyn seemed to imply, the good news that we didn't need the Church in order to be saved, in other words, the doctrine of justification by faith alone. But this is not the end of the debate by any means and it was wrong from the programme to end here. The Council of Trent was set up by theRoman Catholic Church in order to answer the questions thrown up by the Reformation, including Luther's teaching on justification. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that salvation is brought about by both faith and works. In layman's language, you can't say you have faith in Christ but lead a life contrary to Christian values feeling that faith will justify you. Scholars have considered Paul's theology on justification for four hundred years since the Reformation. In thi slight, why was Luther given the last word?

John Edwards -- St Paul
There is no evidence that Jesus existed as an historical person. St Paul made up a Gnostic religion, and subsequently the writer of Mark's gospel made up a story that the Saviour was a real person who could walk on water.

Richard Misson - St Paul Continued
Paul travelled with a woman who baptised, he is also made to attack the Gnostic practice of treating women as equal to men:'A woman should quietly receive instruction in complete obedience. I will not allow a woman to be a teacher nor act superior to a man.’At the end of the second century, then, Paul is portrayed by Literalist Christians as anti-Gnostic and authoritarian. This has been assumed to be historically accurate, but is actually only the perspective of these Literalist Christians. Just a few decades earlier, however, their view was the complete opposite - in the first half of the second century letters attributed to Clement, the Bishop of Rome, vigorously attack Paul as a misguided heretic! These letters describe Peter as vehemently denying Paul's status as an apostle since only an eyewitness of the resurrection should be regarded as an apostle and Paul did not actually see the risen Christ. Paul's vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus is apparently not only invalid; it is a revelation from an evil demon or lying spirit! (Herodotus). Jesus is claimed to be 'angry' with Paul who is his 'adversary', because what Paul preaches is 'contradictory' to Jesus' teachings. Peter writes of Paul as his 'enemy' who has convinced some of the Gentiles to reject the Jewish Law and to embrace 'foolish teachings' which are 'outside the Law'. Paul is accused of creating a heretical gospel and Jesus' genuine apostles have to secretly send out 'a true gospel' to correct these heresies. Like his contemporary the arch-heretic Simon Magus, Paul is a satanically inspired divider of the Christian community. He is a dangerous man who should be expelled from the Church!PAUL AND THE PAGAN MYSTERIESIf we can throw off the traditional picture of Paul and look at the evidence with an open mind this anti-Paul rhetoric is understandable, since his letters show distinct Gnostic and Pagan influences. Paul is a Jew who had embraced the ubiquitous Greek culture of the times. He writes in Greek, his first language. He quotes only from the Greek version of the Old Testament. His ministry is to Pagan cities dominated by Greek culture. Of these, Antioch was a centre for the Mysteries of Adonis, Ephesus was a centre for the Mysteries of Attis and Corinth was a centre for the Mysteries of Dionysus. Paul was a native of Tarsus in Asia Minor, which by his time had surpassed even Athens and Alexandria to become the major centre of Pagan philosophy. It was in Tarsus that the Mysteries of Mithras had originated, so it would have been unthinkable that Paul would have been unaware of the remarkable similarities we have already explored between Christian doctrines and the teachings of Mithraism.Paul frequently uses terms and phrases from the Pagan Mysteries, such as pneuma (spirit), gnosis (divine knowledge], doxa (glory), sophia (wisdom), teleioi (the initiated), and so on. He advises his followers to 'earnestly seek the greater charismata'. The word 'charismata' derives from the Mystery term makarismos, referring to the blessed nature of one who has seen the Mysteries. He even calls himself a 'Steward of the Mysteries of God', which is the technical name for a priest in the Mysteries of Serapis.Paul quotes the Pagan sage Aratus, who had lived in Tarsus several centuries earlier, describing God 'in whom we live, and move and have our being'. He also teaches Mystery doctrines. Like the Pagan sage Socrates, who was deemed wise because he knew he knew nothing, Paul teaches:'If someone thinks he knows something, he still doesn't know the way he ought to know.Just as Plato had written that we now only see reality 'through a glass dimly', so Paul writes, “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face.”This famous passage from Paul has also been translated:'At present all we see is the baffling reflection of reality; we are like men looking at a landscape in a small mirror. The time will come when we shall see reality whole and face to face.’This translation clearly brings out the Platonic nature of

Winston Close: In Our Time
Dear In Our Time,I must start by saying I live in Melbourne Australia and I stream and podcast your show and I find it an invaluable entertainment and resource. If there is one criticism I have it is in the scope of your enquiries. Science seems to encompass the entirety of the subjects history, from the ancient to the contemporary moment but philosophy and culture both halt in the middle of the 20th century. Why is this? A possible answer I can forsee is that there is already enough on radio 4 but this is not really the case. It would be so interesting to hear British academics discussing The frankfurt school, continental philosophers, thinkers such as Deleuze, Foucault, Negri and Zizek. The rise of Cultural studies, the theatre of Beckett, Pinter and Sarah Kane. A program on any of these topics, I feel would be both within the guidelines of the programme, and of interest to listeners,thank you once again for the show,Winston Close

David McDonagh
I was surprised that the others did not question Melvyn's confidence that the Acts [presumably by the author of the "Luke" gospel], was trustworthy as a source for Paul when the character there clashes so much with the author of the Pauline epistles. It seems clear that Acts, by the great contrast cited, is a later work of fiction. Ditto the gospels themselves, all indulged in owing to the end clearly not being nigh after all. Paul never went on about the life of Jesus as he had no access to the said gospels, that were written after he was dead. They are both Paukline & also post-Pauline too. It would be great if Melvyn could invite G.A. Wells to gave his account of Christianity.

Lawrence: Paul/Saul
Paul may indeed have founded Christianty, but decidedly in the role of double agent. Paul remained true to his traditional Jewish roots. He recognised the insidious danger to religious Jewish life posed by the nascent Christian movement and took drastic and revolutionary steps to expose and delineate it for what it was: a fundamentally non-Jewish belief and value system. What better way, than to commandeer the new religion and steer it away once and for all from Torah Judaism?

Jon,length of programme
Is it not obvious to all and sundry that the programme needs a full hour?

Nick Darby - St Paul
Dear Melvyn,I hope you get to read this.First of all, many thanks for the stimulating 'In Our Time' programs,but straight to the point. I happen to be reading 'Irrationality byStuart Sutherland' (Pinter & Martin) and came across this apposite quote(page 8):There is a small area in the middle of the right-hand side of the brainwhich produces a curious effect if an epileptic focus develops there. Insuch a focus the nerve cells from time to time all fire together: whenthey do so, they cause an epileptic seizure. A focus in this particulararea can render the person highly religious, and cause him to avoid sexin any form and to give up all addictions such as smoking and alcohol.Remarkably, when the focus is removed the person goes back to hisprevious existence: he may become an atheist, and return to cigarettes,alcohol and the pursuit of sex. It may be that the form the Christianreligion has taken was in part caused by St Paul suffering an epilepticattack on the road to Damascus.

Paul
I was very, very disappointed with the In Our Time broadcast on Paul, which completely lacked the balance and objectivity of previous programmes, eg previous week on the evolution of the whale. It is stated 'there is a movement away from scepticism'. Well, sure there is - if you simply have three Christian apologetic speakers on the programme and ignore all recent analysis by other sources!! I refer for example to Maccoby H 'The Mythmaker: Paul and the invention of Christianity', 1986, Eisenman R 'Paul as Herodian' 1996, Eisenman R 'James the brother of Jesus', Cresswell P 'Censored Messiah' 2004 and Cresswell P, 'Jesus the Terrorist' 2009 which has a long section on 'The Enemy: Paul'.The programme states that the only evidence lies in the gospel sources. Not true; there is some surviving ebionite testimony on 'the enemy' Paul, eg in the Pseudoclementine Recognitions. There's Josephus and certain of the Dead Sea Scrolls, eg the Commentary on Habbakuk; there is a powerful case that these contain evidence relating to Saul/Paul.Some statements in the programme are just factually incorrect, eg the opening statement that Paul/Saul was a Jewish zealot tentmaker who persecuted Christians. Almost certainly wrong on all four counts! The most outrageously misguided statement, towards the end, was that Paul was persecuting Christians because they were watering down Judaism! That's absolutely wrong. Paul/Saul on just the evidence of the Letters and Acts was persecuting messianic Nazorean Jews, that is extremely zealous Jews, on behalf of the pro-Roman Sadducee High Priest. There weren't any Christians then! That was something, as Acts makes clear, that Paul created first at Antioch.The apostles (the Nazorean followers of a Jewish messiah) didn't incidentally receive Paul nor did he join them. On purely the internal evidence of Acts, they kept him at arm's length (because he was so dangerous) and ultimately rejected him.What about the Eucharist which the evidence from the Letters, Acts and the Didache indicate Paul invented?What about the question of Paul's claimed Roman citizenship? How did he get it? Your apologetic Christian panelists don't discuss these issues, and it can be presumed don't have answers. But there are good explanations from alternative viewpoints , which could have been discussed had the programme been wide and objective enough.Please, please can we have a further programme which looks at all these issues and is more balanced?

Robert Gore.......St. Paul
The impression I got from reading all the New Testment about St. Paul, as a student, was that he deliberately modified the teachings of Jesus to try and contain the new rapidly growing breakaway sect within the broader Judaism, and to make the teachings acceptable to the jews of the day by emphasizing those parts that would appeal and neglecting those that would exclude. The program seemed to imply that St Paul did the opposite, namely modifying the teachings to make them acceptable to gentiles to draw them in. The new sect appealed to the poor, the foreign and the excluded and persecuted because it taught a direct personal link to God, without intervention by a trained priest and stated that a church was merely a gathering of any few faithful in any place at any time. Is it not the case that the early church had a majority of non jews and various immigrants and minorities, including the miscelaneous poor, and that the fear of Paul was that this ragbag group would steal the power and knowledge of the Orthodoxy and grow to challenge the then existing status quo? Until recently, (within the last 40 years) prayers and ceremonies were still held in remote Syrian and Iraqi monastries in Aramaic, the local language of Jesus and his followers, and that these followers had a direct oral link to the original teachings, that had not been through the formal contortions of Councils and politics and language changes that had happened to the texts and faith in Europe, and had not undergone, to the same extent, the changes instituted by St. Paul? Their simple faith did not seem to be primarily about money, power, and property and control like the main thrust in Europe across the centuries, inspite of various reforms and aspirations. That is why some quip that the modern Western faith would be better called Paulianity. Hopefully some scholars will make contact with these remnants of the ancient church and find some insight into the spirit of the early teachings before all their old men have died out or been killed during the recent upheavals, and their lineage is lost for ever.

Mrs Jan Say:
In response to Melvyn's Newsletter question, 'Is it Blasphemous?' (that he had just been musing that without Paul's writings Christianity might have remained just one more small sect). Of course it's not blasphemous to question any aspect of a faith. Such questions surely allow us to engage in proper discussion. But I do feel very sad that the BBC was today (after last night's Question Time broadcast) cowed into submission, once more, by complaints from representatives of other faiths - AND YET we regularly hear broadcast insults and the ridicule of our own faith system, Christianity. (eg News Quiz?) Faiths do not need to compete with one another and followers of faith systems do need to convert one another. We read our scriptures and we also have a mind of our own. Christianity is, surely, this country's inheritance and is our way of tryng to make a certain sort of sense out of a world which is clearly far more than 'simply' matter and freewill. Not everyone has to agree - how can we agree on something we can't explain or describe? We can however read, learn, teach and search for a personal road within faith. I don't expect you to publish this communication but really want us as a nation (which doesn't think itself too clever to learn from the thoughts of great thinkers of the past and present) to stand up for our own faith tradition. The differences in presentation between the marvellous In Our Time and the rabble-rousing Question Time are obvious to listeners and speakers alike. I am a fan of both! Would that it were possible to allow, encourage, deep and reasoned debate in light of philosophy, psychology and the spiritual difficulties - as they might be called - of all members of the human race to be taught from the perspective of professionals who PRACTISE their Christianity in humility and are broadcasting as a result of such work and experience ... Poor old Anglican Church, so misunderstood! :(

Alice: Paul and the Newsletter
I'm relieved to see the comments from Clive Durdle and Rokewood - I, too, was disappointed that the panel seemed to be stuck with the errors of the 'New Testament' concerning Pharisees. My sense that there wasn't much real scholarship around was reinforced by the Newsletter's reference to both Paul and Jesus as rabbis. They weren't. Rabbis didn't exist until after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70CE. I really am surprised that this programme seemed to lack any Jewish or historical perspective. I know that Christians have a big focus on Paul - after all, he pretty much invented/established Christianity - but In Our Time is usually critical and questioning, and the lack of non-Christian thought seemed an aberration.

Quentin
There is nothing blasphemous about speculating that without Paul and Damscus Christianity might have been short lived.(Newsletter)After all think of the millions of reproductive chances in our lineage, yet we are all meant to be here.I cannot square the chance of human affairs with God's providence because the latter is beyond the capacity of human understanding. One takes place in the human sphere, and is true, the other takes place if the infinite sphere, and is true.

Ken on St Paul
I was disappointed that the Academics chosen were unable or unwilling to discuss the poles apart teachings of Jesus and Paul: one said be a child and discover for yourself, the other to be a bondservant and believe in the Son-God.What a missed opportunity in our time.

Terry Robson - Whales, its newsletter & the pod
As Melvyn's newsletter reveals yet again this week, it's a pity we listeners miss the post broadcast chat. This is always of interest in the Newsletter, but M has plenty to say about other things worth a read. So what about this solution - record the chat with lapel/radio mikes and add it to the podcast of the show. Some programmes' podcasts are shorter than the original - why not make IOT's pods longer!

Robin Allott St Paul
I was pleasantly surprised by the manner in which the subject was developed, particularly the the importance (for St Paul and his successors) of the concept of original sin. No doubt the general level of depravity in his time would have been much the same as it is in modern society so the question of the nature and origin of original sin is still relevant. Perhaps one might consider a conflation of St Paul (and St Augustine) with Darwin. Original sin would then be seen as what has been necessary in human evolution for the survival of the fittest. Genes and brain structure have inevitably had to be selected for reproductive vigour and aggression. These remain fundamental in human psychology and sexual behaviour, even if they have been modified to some extent by language-based cultural advances in the functioning of human groupings. The churches and moralists over the ages have been struggling against the evolutionary drive, still very powerful as can be seenin the continuing remorseless growth of the world population (to 10,000 million).

St. Paul
I am very surprised that nothing in the discussion touched on Paul's "consenting" presence at the death of Stephen. He was killed (according to Acts) when he announced that he had seen Jesus "standing at God's right hand". Paul was a cheer-leader for the killers.It is not likely that Stephen's speech as we have it is recorded word for word; that was not the way of ancient historians (like Tacitus). But the account may well have been how Paul later remembered it, and so gave it to Luke. When Paul turned around from persecutor to "believer" it was this question of Jesus' real role which somehow changed his loyalties. I would have liked some discussion of the psychological and other elements likely to have underlain his "conversion"Ian Buist

Anth Paul and the "new religion"
Only a shallow knowledge of the Bible would suggest that the Jewish rabbi, Paul, propagated a different religion from that of his forefathers, or that his teachings differed from those of Christ who commissioned him. Paul said that he was persecuted for daring to believe literally in the promises made IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, and for daring to preach that the Messiah promised there had been revealed in Christ. If you base your argument on the fact that these promises were now, through Paul (and others), offered to the non-Jews, you must “blame” Peter, who was the first to be told not to call unclean what God Himself had cleaned (Acts 10). Indeed, you must go further and blame Christ Himself, who often alludes to the way Gentiles would benefit from the “crumbs that fall from the children’s table”, and will be present at the wedding feast whereas many of the original invitees would spurn the offer. Jesus goes so far as to explicitly refer to a “time of the Gentiles” which will precede the final denouement of history. It is just as useless to seek to drive a wedge between Christ and His chosen messenger as it is to try to rip the Old Testament out of the New. The testimony is one seamless garment : what God has joined together, let not political correctness - or the BBC, which often amounts to the same thing - try to put asunder.

Angie Gyani
Thank you for your programme on St. Paul. It was great to hear such a lively discussion on something so important to our history. Thanks again.

ST. PAUL AND HIS DYNAMIC ENTHUSIASM !!!
I enjoyed todays panel explaining the circumstances of St. Paul's Convertion to Christianity !!!I heard Helen Bond say that St. Paul thought that something was going to happen soon, about 20 - 30 years after Christ's death and resurrection !!!Helen Bond also said it was thought St.Paul was martyrd about 65 AD. !!!St.Paul was right, something did happen in 66AD. !!!GOD had the disciple whom Jesus loved, St. John write down The Book of Revelation, and in 66AD. visited TheHigh KING of Ireland, with it's lesser Kings, and explainedThe Book of Revelation to them, that was to become what is today British History !!!The High Priest of Jerusalem, Caiaphas( who rejected Jesus and oversaw HIS crucifixion), happened to be at The High King of Ireland's Court, when St. John( Ireland's first " St.Patrick " )visited with GOD'S Message of Revelation, and saw The Reverence Jesus's Disciple received. He probably gnashed his teeth, seeing Jesus's Message at The Right Hand of POWER(in Ireland) just like Jesus said : -Matthew 26 : 64 - 65." ... Hereafter shall ye(Caiaphas) see The Son of man sitting on the right hand of Power, and coming in the clouds(Irish mist)of heaven(British Isles). Then The High Priest rent his clothes ... " !!!GOD SAVE THE QUEEN.Sincerely,Veteran09.

Malcolm Wall Saul of Tarsis
I was so disappointed by the lack of rigour given to this subject, it seemed far more like a sermon than an intellectual investigation. To declare a source as authoritative because that is all we have and it says it is, is just too hilarious really. No other sources from the period make any mention of this cult's idol, albeit Bishop Eusabius tried to forge that infamous Josephus passage! There was no city of Nazareth at this time and the tales based upon it are therefore just that tales, to have this mythology talked about as history was uninspiring.Just to help the gullible types out; A true scripture from the supreme creator being would be crystal clear, internally coherent, portraying "creation" with absolute fidelity and flawless descriptions, a human pastiches of said would be opaque, ambiguous, factually incorrect about physical reality, full of self contradiction and seem to contain several conflicting voices. You'll get it soon I'm sure!

Janis Raishbrook St. Paul
Very enjoyable discussion but I'm disappointed that not more was said about resurrection, which was so central to St. Paul's theology.

Thomas Hudson: Criticism
I enjoyed your programme this week, but I feel it did lack a little in historical criticism; it is undoubtedly true that Paul is a huge figure in the history of Christianity, but I would agree with Rokewood below; the gospels as we have them are perhaps not the most reliable historical references.

Cameron Hawke-Smith/ St Paul
A good discussion - maybe there will be an opportunity to explore the extent to which St Paul distorted the teachings of Jesus? The experts stressed that he gave all his attention to the events of the crucifixion and resurrection and little to the moral teachings. Could it not be that he completely misunderstood what Jesus had preached, e.g. in interpreting the Kingdom of Heaven in terms of the physical End of the World? It has always seemed to me that the interpretation of the crucifixion as a 'sacrifice' was an ingenious (and powerful)piece of metaphysical manipulation of an event that must have caused massive disillusion to Jesus' disciples.

JB
Time now to give the brother of Jesus-James- a programme.The subject of this mornings-Paul-but was he an impostor? There is a broader picture.All be it not as safe and tidy as the one Paul gave the world.

Tony Rignall: Apostle Paul
Thanks for today's programme. I attended an evangelical church for over 10 years and in all that time never heard the teachings of St Paul so clearly, and understandably explained. Although I am no longer a 'Christian' in the accepted sense of the word the programme taught me a great deal about the faith I (thought) I once had.

St. Paul
Thank you for the program on St. Paul. I wanted to add something regarding original sin. As an Eastern Orthodox Christian, I do accept the condition of original sin. However, that does not mean inherited guilt. We believe that a person is guilty of only their own sin--this is in contrast to the Roman Catholic Church.

Richard Misson
The great Gnostic sages of the early second century (CE) called Paul 'the Great Apostle and honoured him as the primary inspiration for Gnostic Christianity. Valcntinus explains that Paul initiated the chosen few into the 'Deeper Mysteries' of Christianity which revealed a secret doctrine of God. These initiates had included Valcntinus' teacher Theudas, who had in turn initiated Valentinus himself.'Many Gnostic groups claimed Paul as their founding father and Gnostics calling themselves 'Paulicians' continued to flourish, despite persistent persecution from the Roman Church, until the end of the tenth century. Paul wrote his letters to churches in seven cities which are known to have been centres of Gnostic Christianity during the second century. These Christian communities were led by the Gnostic sage Marcion, for whom Paul was the only true apostle. One thing is for sure: if Paul really were as anti-Gnostic as the Literalists claim, then it is astounding how many Gnostic texts quote him or are actually attributed to him. The followers of Marcion even had a gospel which they claimed was written by Paul. The texts found at Nag Hammadi include The Prayer of the Apostle Paul and The Apocalypse of Paul. A scripture called The Ascent of Paul records the 'ineffable words, which it is not permissible for a man to speak' which Paul heard during his famous ascent to the third heaven alluded to by the apostle in his Letter to the Corinthians." Another text, called The Acts of Paul, describes Paul travelling with a companion called Thecla - a woman who conducted baptisms!''THE GENUINE PAUL?Who is the genuine Paul? Could he have been a Gnostic, as the Gnostics claimed? As we have already discussed, modern scholars now regard many of the letters attributed to Paul as forgeries. Of the 13 New Testament letters, only seven are now accepted as largely authentic.The so-called 'Pastoral' letters to Timothy and Titus are regarded as fakes by all but the most conservative of theologians. Computer studies have confirmed that the author of the Pastorals is definitely not the author of the letters to the Galatians, Romans and Corinthians, which are accepted as genuinely by Paul. The earliest collection of letters attributed to Paul does not contain the Pastorals. In fact, we do not even hear of the Pastorals at all until Irenaeus. They appear as a part of the Christian canon only after this time, always as a set, and are regularly dismissed by Christians of all persuasions as forgeries. Even the great orthodox propagandist Eusebius does not include them in his Bible.This is important, as it is only in the Pastorals that Paul is anti-Gnostic. Unlike the genuine Pauline letters, the Pastorals present him as an organizer of the Church, a mainstay of Church discipline and the unswerving antagonist of all heretics. He is made to condemn Gnostic myths as 'unhallowed old wives' tales and to recommend his followers 'not to meddle with the teachings and not to waste time on endless mythologies and genealogies, which lead to empty speculations'. Obviously by the end of the second century the view of Paul as a Gnostic teacher was a sufficient threat to motivate someone to create an indisputably Literalist Paul in response.This Paul is made to specifically advise:'Guard what has been handed down to you by fending off all the Godless prattle and contradictions of false "Gnosis", which some have adhered to, losing the way of the faith.He is also made to be authoritarian in enforcing the power of the Church hierarchy, writing, 'those who do go wrong should be publicly reproved, to give the others a scare.’ He particularly attacks 'Hymenaeus and Philetus', two Gnostic teachers who have 'wandered afield from the truth' and are teaching the Gnostic doctrine that 'our resurrection has already occurred although in his genuine letters Paul claims to be already 'resurrected' himself! And despite the fact that there was a widespread tradition that Paul travelled with a woman who baptised, he is also made to attack the Gnosti

David in Brussels: Paul indispensible for the Gosp
The aim of the New Testament canon is other than providing a complete history of evangelisation. Other sources exist despite deliberate, massive destruction of early books. (Envisage a few centuries of atheists like Mao or Stalin in charge of religion and history.) According to the first-century Clement of Rome, Paul preached in the ‘furthest limits of the West’ (this term generally refers to Britain rather than Spain). Tertullian and other writers affirm this. The historian Eusebius, in his early fourth-century, pre-Nicene book ‘Proof of the Gospel’, wrote that Paul, the 12 apostles, the 70 disciples of the Council and thousands of other first-century evangelists ‘took possession’ not only of the Roman empire, the Persian, Armenian, Parthian, Scythian, Indian and other empires but reached ‘the very ends of the earth’. He specifies directly the British Isles. Christianity gave the deathblow to classical paganism, nullified Roman imperial ideology and exposed the fallacies of Greek philosophy. The empire reacted with brute force with war in Britain, Judea and Parthia. Jerusalem was the centre for this worldwide evangelism, not Rome. It was the seat of all apostles and the setting of the martyrdom of many, including John the Baptist, Stephen, James the apostle and James, the brother of Jesus. Gibbon records that after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, the headquarters church moved beyond Judea to Pella. Eusebius lists the bishops of Jerusalem of the early centuries, starting with James, the brother of Jesus, followed by Symeon his paternal cousin. Roman pretensions only date from Constantine’s seizure of power when, after centuries of the empire’s religious persecution, ethnicide and ideological extermination, he mixed the dying pagan ideas in an overtly Christian State religion. ‘Let us have nothing in common with the despicable Jews,’ he wrote. This Roman entity continued to persecute those who resisted its propaganda, especially those who would fit Paul’s ideological profile, a Jew and a Christian with non-pagan, non-hellenistic, biblical theology, conversant in Hebrew. The indestructible message in Hebrew and Greek canon proved to be more important than any individual, whether Paul vs Nero, Arius vs Athenasius, Augustine, or later individuals like Erasmus, Luther, so-called 'rationalist' critics, and the neo-Romans, Stalin and Mao.

John, Paul of Tarsus
Jesus of Galilee becomes Christ after Paul’s teaching. We lose the historical andgain on the mythological. Where is Jesus the Hassidim teacher and healer?. Jesus never instituted the Eucharist as Paul claims. The eucharist is a symbol to Paul of the death of Jesus. Paul does not commend Jesus to his disciples as an admirable moral teacher, nor story teller, nor famed healer and miracle-worker. No, he is mythological,the Messiah, the Rock. Jesus can be raised again in the cup of blood, conqueror ofdeath. The Christ that died for our sins. Paul made clear if his followers were baptised in the death of Jesus they would rise again to life immortal. He exaggerates the number of people who saw the risen Christ, 500. Paul is the founder of the Christian religion-the offering of the body and blood of Christ, not Jesus. Paul was responsible for wresting the religion of Jesus from the Jews and making it available to the gentile world. What part does virtue and works play in the scheme of things? But God forgives. There is this conflict in Paul between Law and Grace. God’s grace pours outto all mankind not , he said, just to the virtuous. The hellenizing Jew overcomes the strict Pharisee. The mystic trumps the moralist. Due to man’s fallen nature and original sin men can only be saved through faith in the mercy of God. Since Jesusdied for sinners, a tremendous hope has come into the world. According to Paul forgiveness is possible through Christ. The gulf between the perfection of God and imperfection of man could never be bridged by rules. Jesus gave people not moralbetterment but glorious liberty, he reconciles God and man: “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself”. Seen through the eyes of faith Jesus is Christ:‘For now we see in a mirror darkly, but then face to face’. Publican rather than Pharisee. It was well brought out he was a great theologian and poet respecting his Jewish heritage ushering in a universal faith in a new covenant of all people throughoverthrowing Judaism. There’s no need to be converted to Judaism to believe.

Rabbi Y Y Rubinstein "Paul."
Firstly I am a contented listener to I O T. and sometimes BBC broadcaster. I feel the structure of the Paul programme missed a huge facet. What does the Judaism that Paul came from say about his life and work?A Pharisee is today the Orthodox Jewish tradition.The Talmud was heavily censored by the church but those parts tell a story alluded obliquely to in the Programme that he was in fact a Rabbi. He was, says the Talmud, charged by the Sanhedrin (The Jewish Supreme Court,of which he was a member) with infiltrating the new movement, seen as heretical and alter it so radically that it could no longer be confused with original Judaism.This explains so very much of who and what he did. A pity you did not have a Pharisee on the discussion to paint the picture of what he came from and an alternative version and a shame to have missed this view of the tale.

Sandy Raffan, St Paul
I thought Helen Bond was a real breath of fresh air on today's programme - she made St Paul a real human being. So much so that I stuck with the theology for much longer than if it had just been discussed by Melvyn and the two John's.

Rowland Nelken - St. Paul
Great discussion - very informative, but for this listener there was an enormous hole. Reference was made to the expectation of an imminent transformation, a parousia, a rapture of the righteous, as in the Epistle to the Thessalonians. St.Augustine's rationalisation of apocalyptic disappointment was also referred to.What was never mentioned was the continuing expectation of an imminent apocalypse, a battle of Armageddon, a rapture, a Day of Judgement. All these horror scenarios are given credibility, in large part through St. Paul's writings, bond as they are in the Holy Bible.Even St. Augustine had only put back the End of the World by a millennium or so. In 'The City of God' he states quite baldly that the world will end 7000 years after the Creation. By his calculations that was to occur in the 1650s. Yes, St. Paul created the structure of CHristendom; he spread it way beyond the Jewish world and laid foundations that would survive the eclipse of Rome.He was also instrumental in the darkest aspects of my childhood. I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness, and for them as for a range of other sects, the imminent End, the Rapture et al. were not first century quirks. They were (are) still to be expected. For anyone who venerates a Holy Book as the Word of the Lord, that is a perfectly sensible conclusion, absurd as it may seem in any other context.The expectation of a great transformation, an eschaton survived even the fading of CHristianity. Some European early 19th century communists were Christian and based their expectations of revolution on the 'New World' prophecies of St. Paul. Marx recycled the same myth but subsituted economic statistics for Divine Revelation...but that's another story.You can read of the connections between these stories (St. Paul, Marx and many others) in my forthcoming book 'Paradise Delayed'. I'll sign off by reiterating my main point. The Rapture, the Parousia, the End of Days, were mentioned. The continuing explosive power of these beliefs was ignored.Rowland Nelken - Nottingham

Es Will: Broadcast postscript
A broadcast postscript should be considered carefully, partly as a possible condensed mirror image of the programme and partly for a greater exposure of the themes, released by informality and unweighting of the material. The last aside, at the door, after consultation, is always worth regard.

john abrami Original sin: from today's
The old understanding of Original Sin is now outdated, now that it is clear(or should be clear) that the Genesis Story about Adam's disobedience is just that, a sacred story. To take it as fact does no good to anyone, least of all God's reputation with people who use the inteligence He gave them! It encaps thhe belief that the disorder in humans comes from ourselves, not God.It simply points to our condition.It is an inspired wonderful simple revealing bit of the Scriptures not about Adam. About us. About Every-woman-man. A mixture of good and bad, but invited to climb to the holiness of God Himself with his Son's help. Not something God can force on us. Something we have to co-operate in, to choose, with total commitment to bring about. Thanks Melvyn and in Our Time panel - Marvelous

Paul Everitt - Apostle Paul
Just like to say how much I enjoyed today's discussion about Paul. The great themes of his teaching, all have sinned, salvation only by grace through faith in Christ were well presented. So often the Christian faith is knocked in the media, it was refreshing to here a good well presented discussion. Well done BBC, Melvyn and guests!

Rokewood––Historicity and Paul
I enjoyed the discussion of St Paul very much this morning, particularly the skillful unfolding of Paul's theology by all three contributors. I was struck, however, by the naive attitude shown to the sources, which seemed quite blind to recent NT scholarship. Issues of dating, language and even factual incompatibilities make it very hard for us to rely on Acts or the Pastoral Epistles as valid guides to events in Paul's life. Acts seems a much later document than the discussion assumed (the link to 'Luke' for both Gospel and Acts is unknown until well into the 2nd century) and even the authenticity of Galatians is highly questionable (Galatians and Acts have quite different accounts of Paul's conversion, for example). A dimension of historical scepticism, from which sometimes NT discussions seem uniquely immune, would have enriched the programme.

Christine, Leicestershire
Thank you for the programme about Paul. I enjoyed learning more and was pleasantly surprised that it did not dive into liberal disclaimers. As a conservative Christian, I appreciated the various comments. Thank you.

Clive Durdle St Paul
I was very disappointed in your programme. You do not seem to have checked Britannica and the Jewish Encyclopedia about Pharisees - who were the radical anti slavery anti circumcision spirit of the law lot.Why no mention of the gnostic Paul, and that we probably have three Paul's, an original gnostic Pharisaic liberal Greek Jew, an edited catholicised one, and agreed works called by Paul but written by others.No discussion of Acts as a much later work to bring together factions.Is not the road to Damascus classic fiction when the reality is that Paul is grounded in well trodden Greek Jewish thinking - he uses the Septaguint - written in that Greek city Alexandria? His thinking about grace is a logical extension of Jewish thinking - a small step - not a revolution. His Christ is in the heavens!You have in In our Time covered Persia and Alexandria but somehow you do not see Judaism and its interesting "oriental cult" within its context.And finally have you never heard of Earl Doherty?

John Gaynard
What does your panel make of the claims Robert Eisenman makes about Paul, in books such as the "Damascus Covenant, for example that Paul was a member of Herod's family, that he manipulated the words and person of Peter in his struggle with James, brother of Jesus, for the control of the early Christians and that he also had a hand in James's death? Thanks for a great programme.

the whale
i enjoy the newsletter as much as the programs themselves.

s.g.k. whales
An answer to the question in this week's letter 'How does the great boom of a whale's signal go to one particular whale?'may be that all on its wavelength can hear it but one is more receptive to its purpose.Possibly everything exists in a medium of communication (ours being spatial) through which everything communicates reciprocally.

Graeme Cox - Whales
I don't know how you choose your subjects or came up with the idea of doing the whales, but this slightly unusual, non-form one was excellent !!!

colin milne - evolution.
Erratum - Consequential Evolution. " C.E.T.I " should read " S.E.T.I. ". Colin Milne.Location - Birkenhead Library.

Jennifer Wallace : The Whale
What an excellent programme! Whatever the topic, I come away from this programme pleasantly stunned by how much I've learnt, but there was something really special about this one. The clarity of each speaker's contribution was a delight to listen to and learn from. This programme hadn't had the hype that many of those related to Darwin's theory of evolution have had in this bicentenary year, yet I thought it was maybe the best I've seen or heard.

Tarquin Adolphus....Just a rant in favour of the g
Oh please bring back the pretentious and pontificating who speak only to the obscure narrow interest audience. Isn't that the exquisite beauty of this programme? I love hearing esoteric analysis and discussion of areas of history, physics, philosophy that I had never previously considered. Surely its crucial to hold on to pockets of media that are NOT BROAD BASED< NOT POPULIST, might even be quirky, eccentric, might be irrelevant to most of the mainstream audience...fantastic..let the mainsteam audience swim in the main stream but please allow a few of us to find channels, whirlpools and eddies that don't simply take us down river from A to B in the fastest most efficient current. This is truly innovative and astonishing radio..(OK OK already so I am Melvyn Bragg's mum) but not really...I just love its entirely unpredictable agenda, and the to hear the brainiacs corralled, steered, challenged by Mr Bragg to sum up matters of such detail and academic obsession processed to squeeze (not always comfortably) into the requirements of a Radio talk show format is a total and unusual delight All power to your elbow Melvyn even if one day it may evolve into a fluke.

Why not air the post-show discussion as well? Dan
I understand from the newsletter that the discussion usually carries on after the broadcast ends, sometimes over croissants, and I for one would love to hear that. Any chance you could have a 'Podcast Plus' if you like, for the avid amongst us? Thanks to all contributors are overdue as the show is one of the highlights of my week and has been for years.

Julian Dakowski
At last found the opportunity to listen back to the Siege of Vienna programme. As of Polish descent, I just wondered how much would actually be said of the Poles arriving to 'save the day'. My father [of course proudly bias] always said "They were offered 'the keys of the city' and when Sobieski was asked how could the city repay him, he simply said: 'Just feed my men, and water the horses'!" Alarmingly typical; although it was interesting to hear of the looting of the tents. What you all seemed to miss - even post comment - was the many reasons for success that lay behind the blindingly effective machine of the Polish cavalry [an officer of which my father was at out break of WWII] not least their "ANGEL WINGS" [a full mounted costume of which used to stand in the hall of my Aunt's family home]. It was the noise that they made at full gallop; the noise alone - like a howling wind - was enough to scare the living daylights. A bit more weight, and for that, excitement to the story... it did deserve it. Thank you for your consistently interesting programmes.

Pete - Vienna
I’m an American and I naturally can’t resist a little jibe at the English here :) Great show on Vienna and I learned a couple of things, but I found Magda’s comment below pretty amusing; not sure if she intended it to be funny in its pith but it was. When I was listening I was struck by the question that was something to the effect of what the English contribution was. The answer was a lot of praying in churches, and this was emphasized a couple of times. That appears to have been the extent of it. Then when we got to the Polish part -- where a group of what was made to sound like a small fraction of the 18k went charging with outdated equipment into a horde (I use the term for effect only) of 80-100k and driving them off the field -- it did feel under treated. Would have liked more facts. By the way, from this side I can tell you that Casimir Pulaski is considered the father of the US cavalry, aptly enough; and, according to the internet, could be urban myth, the bagel came about by a Viennese Jewish baker making it in honor of Sobieski to mimic the stirrup (apparently Sobieski was a horse fanatic). In fairness to the show though, it was more about the clash of cultures I suppose. Great piece in any case.

Brian Towers - Whales
re: Your question in the email about "how, in presumably crowded seas, does the whale's great boom of a signal go to a particular whale?"Many years ago I worked on military sonar projects for Plessey Marine Research Unit in Templecombe.What I learnt then was that sharp differences in water temperature can create the equivalent of speaking tubes or layers within the water.A sound created in such a layer will not escape the layer and can travel enormous distances depending on the frequency of the sound.It is likely that whales can communicate over 10's even 100's of miles in the right circumstances.

John Atkinson on grunts
I do remember reading a while ago that someone had recorded a series of 'grunts' from the deep ocean and deduced from their nature that something down there is very, very big indeed. I don't know any more, and have heard nothing further. Who knows something more?

Malcolm Chisholm - Ockham's Razor - A Modern Myth?
William Thorburn published an article in Mind 27 (1918), 345-353, convincingly demonstrating that Ockham's Razor is a modern myth. This is a very serious and extraordinarily well-researched paper that should be taken seriously. Apparently "Entia non sunt..." was invented in 1639 by John Ponce of Cork, and "Ockham's Razor" in 1852 by Sir William Hamilton. It seems that nothing about the rule can be attributed to Ockham himself. The entire paper is available on the internet at the Logic Museum, from which the above comments are largely taken.Malcolm Chisholm, Holmdel, NJ, USA

michael jenkins: paleontology and phylogeny
Dear in our time,i was very interested to listento your informative discussion on:the evolution of the whales,and, the living phylogeny of whales,with respect to the paleontology of:analysing the form of the skeletonsin the fossil record;specifically in this case:the ankle bone.I have a collie dog, a mammal,one of the fist things i noticedabout his skeleton,is that he, dogs,do not have collar boneslike we, humans, do.Since then, the questionhas always beenin the back of my mind:what living phylogeny of mammals(species, genera, orders, classes)are relatedwhen defined by:'having a collar bone' ?yours faithfully michael jenkins

Jon Beynon - Evolution of aquatic mammals
Great discussion on whales - but isn't it time you gave some attention to our species' possible brief adventure in the ocean. I mean of course the Aquatic Ape Theory - contentious I know but definitely worth consideration.

In Our Time - In The Green Room - - Malcolm Black
I love your account of the after programme discussion in the newsletter. But I keep on wishing I was there in the Green room. So why not? You could edit out the "I'll have a Kit Kat amd Earl Grey" comments and produce another great programme at little cost. If the conversation is sparse one week (is it ever?) you can just fill in with Melvyn's Newsletter. "Letter from Lord Bragg"? There's another great programme! Come on we need more Melvyn & "In Our Time" to have more first-rate serious listening that isn't about those flipping idiots in the lower house!

St Paul - question for panel
Dear Melvin-I'm interested in the theory of Simon Magus possibly being a code name for Paul. This would give a radical new perspective on the beginings of christianity.

colin milne - consequential evolution.
Deatrying to put a spanner in r Sir, Re: Consequential Evolution. """""""""""""""""""""""""""" I think that you and Prof. Jones are my Theory of Functionality with your programme about the regressive evolution of Wally. I have tried to convey that evolution has to have a ' drive ' - on Earth, it is the fact that it is Earth-Moon, and the imbalance provides the ' drive ' and makes the life forms functional. The " CETI " experiment should look for planets that have a moon - or some other driving mechanism. There is no need for a planet to evolve - it is evolved, and it could even ' think '. Our thinking is, possibly, just an exchange between stimulus and reaction ( similar to particle exchange } It is iteresting to compare the stages of birth with the stages of evolution. There is cell fusion, embryonic ' amniot ? }, and small creature. Some of the sea creatures resemble ' amniots '. The scientists can't see the functionality for the detail ! Yours etc., Colin P. MilneLocation - Birkenhead Library.

Carl Smith: Aquatic Ape Hypothesis
After listening to Melvin's recent show about whales and the thoughts of his guests I thought that In Our Time should really tackle the 'Aquatic Ape Hypothesis'. I guess it was because so many of the issues they spoke of skirted right along the edge of this theory and dealt with aquatic mammals. He should do it soon though while the main protagonist of this theory, Elain Morgan, is still alive (she is getting pretty old as I understand it).Thanks, Carl Smith

Dave (Lichfield, U.K. Midlands). The evolution of
Another terrific program. I have a background in biology, so I guess I was drawn to listen to it like a magnet to iron. Normally I will listen to I.O.T. filling or emptying the dishwasher or other mindless activities where I can 'do' and listen with some concentration. But with this I sat and took some notes, even though I will probably download the podcast and listen again later. It really 'turned me on', and I will now probably get some books out of the library.I do find Steve Jones better (well really very good indeed) when hes pressed for concise explanations: when he has lots of time he does seem to ramble a bit (sorry Steve). Pity we couldnt have listened to the follow up conversations.On a more general point, is there any chance that some of the programs might be put on CD, and for sale? Or have they been and I've missed it?

Paul - E-whales
Another unasked obvious question which a friend of mine has just raised. How, in presumably crowded seas, does the whale’s great boom of a signal go to a particular whale?Because that would be podcast.

Nathan - Whale Evolution
A welcome programme on evolution after week after week of historical topics. However this programme left me a little confused and disappointed. It seemed the contributors were skirting around the controversy in this area. During the discussion on the Artiodactyl ancestry of whales, the relationships between the various groups was not made clear. Melvyn Bragg failed to ask several questions I would have liked answered, such as whether Hippos are in fact Artiodactyls (I beleive not), and how we "know" that fossil whales like Pakicetus and Ambulocetus are relations of moern whales. A bit of back ground on the Ungulate groups and when they arose would have helped.As I understand it the molecular evidence, to some extent, disputes the fossil consensus that we were given at the start of the programme.Science programmes about cutting egde research should be completely open about the status of what they are telling us. In Ot Time sometimes talks as though everything were the indisputable (and indisputed) truth.

The Whale
Where was the warm blooded Leviathan ofthe deep,O Melvyn.when we have dissected it into molecular DNA? We spent so long on the hind limbs and their evolution inwards we forgot about the different kinds of mouth,toothed or baleen whales until the last two minutes!Although Steve Jones is excellent,he called the livingcreature a 'fossil'.Two million werekilled in the 20th century.The sonarsounds of the whale,the deep boom-boomare calls for companionship too.Theevolutionary mystery was well covered.We saw it is not a fish-it's tail-fluke moves up and down rather than side to side,it's also warm-blooded,the biggest earth animal,a mammal which breathes oxygen,not cold-blooded like fish.It's former frontlimbs turned into flippers to steer while the tail propels this magnificentbeast.I feel the whale's real mysterywas barely touched upon.Perhaps a little sprinkling of metaphysics intothe physical analysis,the whaleroads ofour ancestors,Jonah and the whale,evenMoby Dick's Great White Whale could have been touched upon.This was still asuperb programme,but could we not havea mixture of experts who are not so onenote in their outlook?

graham smetham - whales
Astonishing mythological nonsense. As far as I understand the materialist evolutionary perpsective the evolving happens due to complete non-intentional random mutations. An yet in this debate the intentional idiom was at the forefront. If you want to live in the sea better to evolve a 'tail fluke', ulinke those poor idiot seals who did not manage it. An imagine it those poor proto-whales condemed to use the vesitigial legs for 'copulation' while they wait to really get it on on the sea. As always materialist darwinian is ridiculous mythology. I've just written an in depth peice about this and I will shore more considered insights tomorrow or next day - photosynthesis showe that the secrets of evolution reside at the quantum level!

Mark: evolution of whales
What about the argument from design? Allowing Bill Amos' statement that whales "started thinking about developing sonar" to go unchallenged is scandalous. As likely as pigs thinking about developing wings. Yet no-one gainsaid him. Steve Jones jibes that "you can't have an argument with creationists; they just make squeaks - like a whale". But the programme would have benefited greatly from the creationist perspective - that whales were designed to be as they are. To have only one side of the argument represented is a boxer shadow-boxing. The ideas coming out in this programme need rigorous scrutiny, not chronyism. It's easy to win when there is no oppostion. Why not have both sides of the argument?

Phil - whale evolution
There are other evolutionists who dispute the role of ambulocetus, basilosaurus and pakicetus in the evolution of whales e.g Barbara Stahl. Pakicetus has been described by Thewisson as a land mammal. Fossil remains of these creatures is limited and their appearance leans much on imagination.

Chris N - Whales, conundrums & the you tube bank s
I tuned into whales expecting Moby Dick and relative boredom. I was entranced, informed and wanted the extra 15 minutes. This led to to thoughts of IOT and the South Bank Show confronting me with ideas and areas that I would not choose but appreciate being challenged. With the demise of the SBS due to budget I wonder if YouTube could be used as a place for even lower budget but still challenging SBS or IOT style programming.

Sinic - Evo. of whales.
If the contributors said much more than whales exist therefore they must have evolved then I never heard it.The religion of Natural Selection is so all encompassing that there exists nothing wrt life that it cannot describe.What's truth got to do with it ?

Brian Hughes - Whales
Another fine programme. Steve Jones is always a good contributor and the others also did well. It's reassuring to hear something that took a couple of million years to happen being described as "quick"! Puts waiting for the mortgage to be paid off into context...

Brian: The Whale; A History
At last In Our Time dispels the ‘Up Our Chuff’ soubriquet and presents a programme that is of relevance and general interest rather than the usual obscure narrow interest programme that seems to be a vehicle for solely for pretentious pontificating.

NixinKome : Seaborne mammals
Sir, I was only listening to this morning's programme [210509] with one ear initially. That changed.I also thought that whales' diet was of plankton and krill, harvested in a dredging manner. To hear that squid at depths are another part of their diet surprised me and made sense in terms of the diversity of life at the same hearing. That whales target and possibly stun their prey was another revelation.I wonder whether studies of global warming take into account the effects on squid.I also wonder if the incidences of self beached schools/pods of whales and dolphins has to do with their intolerance to man-created sound pollution of the oceans.Respect,N.

WHALES
excellent programme. i was hoping that you would compare the evolution of whales with the path from fish to land creatures. for example whales may not have developed gills because they had a choice of air and water. land creatures had to develop lungs because there was no water (on a constant basis).keep up the great work!ed

The Whale
Today's discussion was, as ever, fascinating but I think the show missed a trick in confining itself to a evolutionary overview of the history of the whale. A tour of the role of the whale in culture might have been more enjoyable.The whale has always been portrayed as an alluring and mysterious creature in literature and art forming an interface between our humanity and the darkness of the deep. I think maybe this would have been a really interesting perspective to explore.Nevermind though, it is my Birthday today and I am feeling rather forgiving of my favourite radio programme. Keep up the good work.Incidentally, does anyone know whetehris it possible to insert/use html tags in message board postings in order to separate them into paragraphs?

Douglas Dwyer Re : Whale sonar
My background in sonar leads me to believe that the calcium lumps (external features) serve to give identity to individual whales when illuminated by whale sonar, The body of a whale would be otherwise semi transparent except for bones.

Hippopotamus
Hippopotamus is derived from the Greek (for river horse) and the plural would be hippopotomoi, not hippopotomae (which would suggest it came from the Latin). Try Hippopotamuses for the plural in English.

John - General
Having very recently found your archive, my thanks for retaining it and allowing my brain to get re-accustomed to high quality, informative conversation. An increasingly rare commodity in the media in particular, and the world in general. Currently I am re-visiting your Socratic dialogue.

Tim Askew - praise!
One of the best programmes on Radio 4 and hope very much it continues. Great programme concept (whoever thought it up) and thoroughly enjoyable. Radio 4 provides a fantastic service and is really the jewel in the BBC crown by a huge margin.

Mark : postmodern angle
Mr Bragg,re. Daniel's comment in this column:"I've been getting the feeling that the programme is stuck in the same realm of topics, getting narrower and narrower with time rather than broader. It's as if you run out of fresh ideas and chose to pursue topics similar to the ones already discussed or some aspects of them in more detail, instead of looking for them "outside the box"."Daniel was saying that the programme is a bit blinkered, pursuing the same kinds of topics and angles. Perhaps a paradigm shift is into post-modernism would spice things up a bit. Postmodernism is summarised by the French philosopher François Lyotard as “incredulity towards metanarratives”. A metanarrative, he describes as an “overarching story” about life. Being postmodern means taking something of a subversive view of the discourses with which a culture talks about itself. For example the postmodern theorist Foucault reinterpreted the discourse of meritocracy by reversing the adage that “Knowledge is power” with “Power is knowledge”. The forerunner of much postmoren theory, Jaques Derrida, showed how stories can be deconstructed.In short, taking a postmodern angle is about critiquing whatever sets itself up as absolute truth.I note that this Thurday’s programme is on the evolution of the whale. A fantastic opportunity to try a radical postmodern approach.

The measurment problem in Physics
An excellent programme one I thoroughly enjoyed, time either flew or stopped I was totally immersed in wavefuctions and thinking about that poor cat stuck in limbo. What I would like to have seen is a panelist who could explore the role that Mind/Consciousness plays in all of this. Two people come into mind here, Amit Goswami Physicist and authour of the book The Self Aware Universe, who argues that Consciousness not Matter is the primary stuff of the universe. And the American Philosopher Ken Wilber who is suitably qualified to talk about the Mystical implcations that stem from the findings of current Quantum Physics. Wilber's book Quantum Questions is a real treasure trove and should be on everyone's bookself. He collected the Mystical Essays of Einstein, Eddington, Dirac et al. And how many people out there are even aware that these great Scientists even wrote such words of wonder. From my experience of participating in physics forums around the net, not that many.What about a follow up Programme Lord M it would be great!Tom Allen

John Byrne-future programme suggestion
Following Stephen Dee's example of suggesting a future programme I think the life and works of Erasmus would make for a very interesting programme.

Elizabeth Balsom Siege of Vienna
When I visit my old penfriend in Vienna we often drive over to Perchtholdsdorf for coffee and a stroll around. We usually pass the wall bearing a plaque commemorating the 1683 siege, so it's probably not all that hard to understand Austria's stance on Turkey and Turkey joining the EU. Heavens above, I'm from Plymouth and still remember the Spanish Armada! And I recall my friend's father telling me 40 odd years ago that Metternich had said the Balkans began at Schwechat. It was an interesting and illuminating programme.

Mark Bladon. Generic Request
Mr Bragg - I enjoy In Our Time enormously, on the podcast. I live in Melbourne and listen to it walking along the banks of the Yarra River, from time to time risking life and limb from the cyclists, when the topic demands more thorough attention. I've been listening for a couple of years now and know the summer break will be coming up shortly... can I make a suggestion on that? As I say, I listen on the podcast, on the move, and accordingly can't make use of the fine option to listen to older programmes as the cord for my PC doesnt stretch that far. During the summer break, peraps you could "re-podcast" some of those older programmes? This would allow us to keep our weekly dose of In Our Time during a period which - in Melbourne, at least - could use some enlivening. (alternatively, if you could let us download the old episodes I could save them for when I'm taking the walking cure...?) Whether you can help with that or not I appreciate the programme, enjoy it enormously and look forward to it every week Thanks Mark Bladon

magda - the siege of Vienna
I am really disappointed with the last show. The role of Polish army was diminished. It would be much better for Poland if our King had stayed at home and just pray for Austrians.

general -
'In Our Time' is a valuable tool to anyone with an interest in research/life etc.. I notice that there has been a change in other programmes re. the period of time you can access 'listen again'. I use this Archive facility many times, and recommend it to both students and colleagues. Please please keep this I.O.T archive open. It's a fantastic resource.

Stephen Dee - suggested subjects for future progra
HelloI have been inspired by your marvellous programme since I came to live in the UK five years ago.I am not sure whether you accept unsolicited suggestions for programme subjects, but it occurs to me that if I have the slightest of criticisms it is that the programme tends to deal with 'old world' subject matter. As a New Zealander I believe that there are some amazing stories to tell about the New World. For example, the story of the first voyages of Europeans to the South Pacific and the development of contact with indigenous peoples is extremely interesting - I suggest that you have a look at Anne Salmond's great book 'Two Worlds: First Meetings Between Maori and Europeans 1642-1772' as a starter.Secondly, the history of the 19th century 'Maori' Wars is extraordinary - the Maori were never actually defeated in battle by the British armies, and they proved themselves to be brilliant tacticians and innovators, virtually inventing some of the modern styles of warfare (eg guerilla) that are still effective today in struggles between indigenous populations and vastly superior invading forces (eg Vietnam, Iraq). You could read James Belich's fascinating history 'The New Zealand Wars' to find out more.Finally, the story of the Maori prophet Te Whiti and his community at Parihaka, is the story of the invention of passive political resistance, as taken up more famously sixty years or so later by Gandhi. There are a number of books on this subject and a Google search will lead you to them.I hope my suggestions may be of some use.With thanks for readingYoursStephen Dee

Robert - The Battle of Vienna
Polish lancers might seem outdated from the point of view of infantry-based Western warfare, but in the vast expanses of Eastern Europe it was cavalry that ruled the battlefields throughout the 17th century. Polish lancers (or rather winged hussars) proved victorious against numerically superior Swedes in 1605 (Battle of Kircholm), Muscovites in 1610 (Battle of Klushino), Cossacks and Tatars in 1651 (Battle of Berestechko), Turks themselves in 1673 (Battle of Khotyn), and many others. Their tactics and strategy were perfected for battling the Asian-style forces, but they proved effective against Western-style warfare as well. So it wasn't merely the fact that the Turkish soldiers were demoralized that accounts for the success of the Polish charge.I do hope there'll be more programmes on Eastern Europe. So far it has been repeatedly and undeservedly neglected, although it's a fascinatng mix of Europe and Asia, with its cultural, ethnic and religious diversity, and a great deal of twists and turns of history.

Peter Bolt :Seige of Vienna
The Sultan always had to take into account the need to employ and finance his legendary Janissaries mercenary soldiers.Containing at one time it is said Saxon "Karls" fleeing after the Battle of Hastings. The real villian was his brother in lawthe Grand Vizier "Black Mustafa" who openly boasted he would "stable his horses in St Peters", and he had a lot of horses.It should also be added that The Hapsburgs were not even remotely grateful to the Poles for their vital help.

Nick Stow, programme of The Seige of Vienna
Good to know there are still some who can handle their libation and loquation simultaneously and with facility. Cheers Melvin.

Mariusz from Poland - on future programmes
As we are entering the 20th years commemoration of gradual end of communism - this might be a nice subject for a programme, but please do not forget about Poland this time, as here was created the first truly independent mass organization in Eastern camp - labour union Solidarity, the first independent elections in eastern bloc - on 4th June 1989, etc.

Mariusz from Poland. - The Siege of Vienna
Being from Poland I am realy dissapointed by the last show. Polish role was dimisnihed, quite unnecessarily. It seems as if Turkish army colappsed itself, and the truth is that the impact of charging winged hussars on infantry morale was massive. Winged hussars might have seem outdated for Westernes, but were realy effective in the wars Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth waged against Turkey. Furthermore, the fame of Polish King John III Sobieski among ordinary Ottoman troops was something no other leader in Western Europe could replicated. The simple rumour that the Lion of Lechistan is on the field with his best units must have put fear in the hearts of Turks. And it was not very easy decission to go to relieve Vienna, as Polish-Austrian relations werent particularly good, Austria schemed against Poland from time to time - and later repaid us handsomely taking part in the partitions...I would be realy interested in a programme focused on Poland - be it noble democracy, military camapigns, unique sarmatian culuture, long-term lost conflict with Russia, being a beacon of Western culture in the East etc. - but maybe finding three scholars specializing in the subject may be difficult.

Peter Household - Siege of Vienna
Was fascinated to hear that the Sultan felt he had inherited the mantle of the Roman Empire, and so assumed the Byzantine view that the Holy Roman Emperors were illegitimate. Anyone got any insights on this? Would like to hear more.peterhousehold@yahoo.co.uk

Gill - The Siege of Vienna
Very interesting programme as usual, particularly for me as my U3A group studied this area last year. In my opinion In Our Time is the best programme ever thought up and I turn to the archives again and again when there's "nothing on the telly", which is frequently!

Siegeofvienna
The siege of Vienna is significant because it relates to an important theme in European history: its relationship with the Islamic world. Vienna was regarded at the time as the "frontier" against the Islamic world. So it was important that the Ottamons be defeated in the siege. To some extent, this thinking still exists, and is seen for example in the debates around whether or not to accept Turkey as a member of the EU.

David Barnett, Ph.D. - Seige of Vienna

War is very costly, and vast as the Ottoman empire was, the state was perennially short of money from the 17th Century onwards. The failure of its investment in this war only made matters worse. The Ottoman state used a tax farming system, the abuse of which has left its scars on the Middle East to this day.

In the Levant [i.e. today's Lebanon, Syria Israel etc.], for example, the Effendi [wealthy landowner] contracted to pay the sultan a certain sum. The effendi then dunned his fellahin [tenant farmers] for funds. Naturally the fellah did not have cash, so would pledge his crop to pay the "debt".

Periodically, the burden would get too much to bear and the fellah would move out to escape [this kind of "bankruptcy" plagued the last centuries of the Western Roman empire too]. Sometimes he would take up residence on a plot vacated by another fellah. But the net result was a very short term perspective, low productivity and, ultimately, a fall in population.

The mid to late 19th century saw an upsurge of economic activity in Southern Syria [today's Israel]. The fellah now found he could earn cash by working for or trading with Jews. It is estimated that for every Jewish immigrant to an area, 10 felahin could be liberated from the cycle of debt to and dependance on the effendi.

Naturally, the effendi did not like it. They persuaded the Sultan to ban land sales to Jews, but too many effendi defied the law for a good profit. The next trick was to play the race card. In many respects, today's Arab-Israeli conflict has at its root the desire of the Arab elite to continue to exploit the Arab masses. If so, no political formula can solve.

The history of taxation and taxation as a driver of history would make a fascinating "In Our Time" subject.

Brian Turner - The Siege of Vienna
Fascinating - not least because I was a contemporary of Andrew Wheatcroft at Christs in the early 1960s!Busbecq, the Imperial ambassador resident in Constantinople at some time in the 16th century, stressed the importance of rice & camels to the Ottoman success, writing:'There are two things from which, in my opinion, the Turks derive the greatest advantage and profit, rice among cereals and camels among beasts of burden; both are admirably adapted to the distant campaigns which they wage. Rice keeps well and provides a wholesome food, a little of which suffices to feed a large number. Camels can carry very heavy burdens, endure hunger and thirst, and require very little attention'.Obviously not an explanation foir defeat in 1683 but a help in explaining how they arrived at the gates of Vienna.

Kate- Proposal for show
The destruction of Smyrna in 1922 would make an interesting programme. There are many interesting parts to this peice of history including the rise of Ataturk, the pivitol roles of Britian, France, Italy and America, the personality of Venizelos, the importance of Smyrna as a city before the destruction, the widely disputed cause of the fires, the following exchange of the Greek and Turkish population (giving birth to the modern day Athens) and how it still affects thousands of people across Greece and Turkey today. This was a major catastrophe and very influential event in modern Greek/Turkish history and yet we don't here anything about it.

Keith - In Our Time.
Thank you BBC. Thank you Melvyn. This is the ONLY programme on radio to which I will listen with undivided attention.If the BBC would take to heart the underlying message exhibited by this programme of how to inform and entertain then we would have many more.The most important question, for me, to ask of historians is "What was it like?" This seems to be the very question which Mr Bragg unfailingly manages to ask.It's a gem.

Peter Craven: The Siege of Vienna
The Siege of Vienna is generally accepted as taking place in 1529, whilst what occurred 1623 is known as the Battle of Vienna

Andrew - Future Programme Suggestion: Krishnamurti
I would love to hear an In Our Time on the life and philosophies of Jiddu Krishnamurti.I find his writings (and oratory) strangely compelling, but, by the way of a confession, rather elusive.It would be tremendous to hear 'the experts' discuss the work of this enigmatic figure.

The bicycle
Might I second the call for a programme on the bicycle. Not many people know that a strong claim for inventing the biycle goes to the Byzantine Emperor Athanasius III who developed a cavalry brigade mounted on movable vehicles peddled by slaves. It was known by those that faced its terrfying might as the 'iron cavalry' (ironius cavalcadius in the Latin) but was not as effective as it might have been due to the emperiors insistence on octagonal wheels for religions reasons. ON one ocassion the entire cavalry got stuck in a particularly large rut in the Sahara desert and was massacred to a man by marauding Berber tribesmen.

Anselmo - the bike
I believe that someone else has suggested this a while ago and I have been waited at my wireless for it to come but there has still been no programme on the bicycle and in particular the role of Baron Karl von Drais. Come on Melvyn and the team, time to saddle up and get into gear for what would be a fascinating programme - keep up the good work Anselmo

seth "Magna Carta in America"
In December 1641, after 4 years of delay and debate "The Liberties of the Massachusetts Collonie in New England" was enacted. Defending its religious exclusionary policies, in 1646 Winthrop et.al. compared the Bay "Fundamentalls" with the Magna Carta and English common law respecting its formidable guarantees of liberty and due process, while arguing for the colony's right to set the standard for participation in governance in open challenge to Anglicans, Presbyterians, Anabaptists and Parliament alike.

Dave .....Magna Carta
Trivially there was an ode by Stanley Holloway (him of Albert and the Lion, which went“It was due to that Magna CartaThe barons signed that of oldThat means that in England we do, as we likeAs long as we do as we’re told"More seriously it was Magna Carta, which gave us habeus corpus.This was crucial in the 18th century case of James Somersett, an escaped slave. His owner wanted him back, It was decreed that slavery was illegal in England due to habeus corpus.It took a long time for the slave trade to be abolished and slavery still existed in the colonies. Indeed the was part of the process which led to the American declaration of independence. A colony based on slavery and the genocide of the Indians could see the way the wind was blowing.I want a programme on great brainwashimgs of history. For example last year’s stuff about the First World War. 90 years on free mags in the Guardian etc,So why do some war memorials say 1914-1919? And who was at the bedside of Victoria Saxe Coburg Gotha as she died? Who bombed the Greeks who had been fighting the Germans 1946? Who rearmed Japonese prisoners of war in Vietnam? Who gave the Taliban stinger missiles and then offered to buy them back? Many other examples. But I have strayed from the point enough for now

Magna Carta
Was it just me or were there embarassing pauses this week? It was as though the "experts" had run out of things to say..

Jonathan re Magna Carta
Again, as ever, brilliant and fascinating. Simply the best programme on air - anywhere. But three mediaeval historians ... where were the lawyers? We heard a little, but perhaps we might have heard some more about the relevance to and impact on the common law of our days and its influence on the law in other lands? One of your American listeners suggested something on the influence of English law on US law. Perhaps I might suggest as a future topic: the development of the Norman and English Common Law, and if there is time left (always a problem on your programme, the wide scope - and why it is so good!), its and influence on other countries and contrast and comparison with Roman and civil-code jurisdictions. Just a suggestion...

Andrew-Magna Carta
As Tony Hancock once declaimed, "What aboutMagna Carta, did she die in vain!"

R Hastings on Magna Carta
I was curious as to why there seemed to be very little regard to the effect that Richard 1, John's elder brother and largely absentee predecessor sovereign, had on Johns future attitude's and general behaviour. It seems obvious that he felt personally, somewhat of an inferior to Richard, given that he conspired to and committed treason against him during Richard's imprisonment whilst returning from the crusades, for which he was benignly forgiven. It would seem to me to be quite relevant that the dynamic between these brothers would have been a obvious root cause for Johns supposedly ugly behaviour and bad reputation.

John - Magna Carta
The King’s will could be bound by law he didn’t just have a divine right to rule. There was now the idea of the consent of his subjects. The Magna Carta laid down what the barons took to be the recognised and fundamental principles for the government of the realm and bound king and baron’s alike to maintain them. No man should be punished without fair trial, that ancient liberties generally should be preserved, and that no demands should be made by an overlord to his vassal( other than those recognised) without the sanction of the great council of the realm. King John had lost God’s favour in the eyes of the barons due to his losses of money and battles and his unjust treatment of the barons through extortionate taxes and seizure of lands. Clause 61, allowing 25 barons to seize power from the king, was later dropped and the king had reneged on it prior to dying backed by the Pope. Feudal monarchs who like Johnacquired a reputation for injustice, always found themselves confronted by feudal rebellion. Phillip of France on the other hand cultivated a reputation of justice towards his vassals. Johndid not inspire confidence in his troops and therefore lost Normandy.With his victory at the Battle of Bouvines, Phillip gained the centre ground in Europe and with this proof of John’s wickedness the baron’s revolt forced John to grant themMagna Carta. Stephen Langton, the Pope’s appointee as the Archbishop of Canterbury (opposed by John to his and England’s cost), gets a good deal for the Church, as the reconciler between the barons and the king, set out the Magna Carta binding the king to the law of God. Habeus Corpus, innocent until proved guilty and trial by jury are all important practices that are offshoots of the charter. IOT broughtup the way this was used as opposition to the king in the English Civil War. That it also implies the citizen hasprotection against his government we should also remember in these times with the erosion of civil liberties on behalf of security.This is historynever more worthy of remembrance than now.

Doug Tarnopol, Proposal for a Show
I looked and didn't see anything on Oscar Wilde. Would love to hear a show devoted to him!Best, Doug

Magna Carter
An instructive discussion which leaves me wondering whether the timing has anything to do with the state and its present high handedness with civil liberties. Perhaps now Melvyn Bragg is pulling out of TV he will have more time to engage with these issues? Dona

Magna Carta
I was disappoined that Alexander II of scotland never got a mention. After all it was his support of the barons, he marched his army into England, helped capture London and then marched his army to dover to meet up with the french Dauphin. Hisactions in support of the Barons forced John to concede to the will of the Barons.

Magna Carta
I was disappoined that Alexander II of scotland never got a mention. After all it was his support of the barons, he marched his army into England, helped capture London and then marched his army to dover to meet up with the french Dauphin. Hisactions in support of the Barons forced John to concede to the will of the Barons.

Steve "Magna Carta"
I loved this weeks' programme and found it really interesting. The subjects of Magna Carta and King John are from such a long time ago, yet they compel us still. For those interested, a light dramatisation of the events at Runnymede can be found on www.shortbreadstories.com (Dangerous to Know).

Henry VIII and the Reformation
It would be great to have an In Our Time on Henry VIII and his religious ideas, both Catholic and Protestant, as it is 500 years since his acsession.John Wigginton

an absence of any female voice!
where are the women today?

The Vacuum of Space
I love this subject though I find that it is immersed in so much speculativeenergy that there are no goalposts orparameters by which to measure it.We know Einstein refined Newton's ideas ofspace and time into space-time.We now know much of Einstein is now invalid ashe posited a cosmological constant inhis General Theory of Relativity for astatic universe.However this was still thought to be usable by generating terms like "dark matter

the vacuum of space
Avid listener, 1st comment. Love history not so much science but the team use of analogy was excellent. I understood the programme.BBC flagship series {incl TV). Only criticism, it's not long enough!!!

constants in nature
I think that people who own and use dishwashers possibly miss out....all my interesting thinking seems to happen as I'm washing pots and gazing at the garden. Rather 'zen' hey.(I'd advise anybody to use words like 'natural' or 'wild' when describing their patch as it affords great license and a certain inner relaxation). Anyway, this morning my brain began pondering the J.W. Dunne quotation I submit yesterday. As I thought about the chicken and egg of mathematical structure and nature (anthropic logic would indicate towards maths coming first...but then what of concept?) Anyway, I arrived at the phenomenon of constants. So I'm wondering what the cutting edge folk are finding out about how these constants have formed and stabilized and whether they are actually relative and adaptive or unchanging? I'd be really interested in a programme on this pivotal subject if you haven't already done one. (Incidentally,I've got real player but simply can't access the archives for some reason...anyone had a similar problem and solved it?). Best wishes.

Ben - Vacuum - Simply An Observation
Your science episodes that flirt with philosophy generate so much enthusiastic commentary and thought. The feedback is staggering. I celebrate with Melvyn, and with the entire I.O.T team, and the contributors the fun this show is to listen to and it's educational value for the layperson, University Student, the teacher, and even professional scientist. .....And Yes, of course I'm a fan!An Aside...I too think Keith Ward would be very good on the show.Many Thanks, and Good fun!...Ben.

Peter Jackson
Astonishing comment quality! Tom, Akira, James, Dennis and 'no name', better than the panelists!! Alan in particular - max speed of light (ALL wave energy) a function of the field,- though the quantum 'mass deficiency' (force of the A bomb) bonding force between particles is probably what actually 'limits' it; gluons can't keep particles stuck together beyond that speed. Alone they become just dark energy again. And Trish, Lovely words but I'm afraid the currency of original conceptual thought in physics has crashed. Sad for physics and the human race.Ian; Don't try to think about what's outside the universe yet, we need to get what's IN it right first! Good thinking about US expanding too, but the theory is the dark energy pool is being fed and spreading out, getting bigger 'than it was'. But that theory is yet another paradox - and don't get me on to the Lorenz transformation!. The fact is the MAJORITY have noticed the issue with kings new clothes! The ether DOES exist, ..but it can't. There IS an answer to Relativity working with Quantum Theory, solving the key paradoxes, but apparently the moment you work it out you become mad and no-one in physics wants to speak to you or even read it!!Ohh! last point; Dennis - dark matter is VERY observable and observed, (see galctic halo's etc.) and is 'known' to make up between 25% and 90% of the universe! Everyone knows there's a lot seriously wrong with physics, but no-one want to know the answer! (Or if you do just ask).

A quotation with general relevance....
From the introduction to J.W. Dunne's 'The Serial Universe': 'The men who - little guessing the magnitude of their adventure - set out upon the earliest attempts to understand the world in which we live....had opened a door - closed till then - in the human mind; and they saw, in a first, dazzling vista, the tremendous powers of abstract reasoning with which Man, all unsuspecting, had been equipped. They had peered behind Nature's mask of happy anarchy; and they stared upon Order - portentous and unassailable. But the strangest discovery was that this orderliness in Nature, and this intelligence in Man, seemed to have been specially created to play partners in a kind of cosmic cotillion of rationality. Mind made laws of reason; Nature obeyed them.' (Dunne also wrote 'An Experiment with Time'). Best wishes.

Q 27 Vacuum physics
Physicists have estimates for the various half-lives of radioactive isotopes. What is the estimated haf-life of universal mass (before it all "vanishes" into the various black holes scattered through the universe)?5 million years. 50 x 10exp50 years.

Gary on The Vacuum ...
I found the chronological treatment of this topic to be suboptimal. The really interesting part of the discussion concerns the open questions; discussing them near the end left to little time to do them justice. I would prefer starting with the open questions, then bringing in relevant history.Thanks for making the programme, it was very interesting anyway.

Melvyn's ps on faith etc.
These may be of interest: 1. The word 'fohat' which Einstein would almost certainly have been familiar with as (according to his niece) he kept a well thumbed copy of Blavatsky's 'Secret Doctrine' by him. 2. The delightful book 'The Boy Who Saw True' which is the enchantingly naive diary of a victorian boy born with natural clairvoyance. His widow felt it should be made available to the public so, before his death, her husband agreed, on the proviso that she wait until several years after his demise and publish it anonymously. Skepticism is not impossible but more difficult with this book because the old adage 'Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings...' is touchingly present in the extended empiricism documented in this child's jottings. It's both easy and entertaining to read but could induce resistance in those who hold rigid beliefs. Can't recommend it highly enough - especially the visit to his aunt's church in which he unwittingly describes seeing something relating to 'light' which, 'though I'm not a 'church goer', I find utterly profound. 3. A quote: "Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which has the grander view?" Victor Hugo. Best wishes to all - Jane.

John Rowlands "The Vacuum of Space"
An excellent programme that was very informative. It rekindled my interest in cosmology. I am now following up the work of the three scientists that participated in the disscusion. I also downloaded the podcast to listen to it again. Well done Mevyn.

Julia "Nothing"
I loved this weeks' programme and had been looking forward to it. Many thanks. I'm no scientist but had a while ago come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as nothing - I thought your programme proved me right! The Big Bang sounds so like a massive Super Nova - surely the birth of a universe means a "parent" and many other universes, just like the stars. So (to sum up) no nothing, lots of tiny, unseen things and dust, lots of waves, lots of massive bodies in eternal universes therefore no nothing therefore no creator!?

John- Is the posting system working?
Not a single post has been added for 4 days. Will IOT please edit and update the have your say page with new posts.It would be good to read feedback and thoughts on the latest program. Thank you and Very Best.John.

Life in a vacuum Notnef
Reference this observer mentioned in the above programme in a new version of Einstein's thought experiment, flying at the speed of light and carrying his mirror. Presumably he's in space, also in a life support machine or suit. But hang on, this is Einstein's own theory we are trying to prove in that he will not be able to see his image in the mirror. And Einstein's own view of events at light speed are that squashed space time has to happen. So, the observer, his mirror and his space craft ( unless it's one of those weird quantum ones,) will break into Humpty Dumpty pieces never to be put back together again. So, yes he won't be able to see his mirror because the poor soul will be completely vapourised. Perhaps he should take his chance as the thought surveyor on Einstein's thought railway with its speeding trains and flashes of occasional lightning. It's tough being an Einstein observer.

Violet - Space
The programme was interesting and provoked much thought. But seemed to go five mile to get two. A real one around the block. The concept of space and where we are in it and how it and we are structured and are all part of the same building blocks seems a difficult concept to imagine even for the 'experts'Individuals live their lives and do not contemplate the topic, yet time and space are relative to the very existence of the individual.The Museum of Photgraphy in Bradford gives an example of this via showing a picture of space and then focusing down to the photon, via the solar system the planets the earth,human beings, etc. A practical example which illustrates the problem very well.

Robin Allott Vacuum
A very difficult subject which has raised problems for 2500 years so it’s a bit much to hope to tackle it in 45 minutes – despite the heroic efforts of the participants. Long before Aristotle, Parmenides dealt precisely with the question of the void, the vacuum. His famous verses argued very clearly that it was nonsense to think that there can be nothing, that something called nothing can actually exist, that there can be space with nothing in it or that matter can emerge out of nothing or disappear into nothing. What Michelson and Morley demonstrated to their and others’ satisfaction was that an ether carrying light waves was not apparent in terms of the particular experimental method they used. The problem is as much a philosophical one (Kant is relevant) as one for physicists – who now seem to have arrived back at the idea of a plenum but updated in terms of quantum mechanics. Bohm dealt with this (as well as the dual/particle wave conundrum) rather well in terms of the material object, from the electron to the supernova, not as isolated objects or waves travelling through space but as patterns being instantiated from moment to moment in the plenum; this makes possible a quite different understanding of the results of the Michelson/Morley experiment. The main impression left by the discussion was how many major puzzles physicists and cosmologists are still wrestling with – including anti-gravity, dark energy, dark matter and cosmological inflation. Perhaps what is needed is a rethinking of some of the central concepts, of what we mean by matter or by objects and not least how we should understand gravity. Perhaps gravity after all is not an attractive but a repulsive force? Maybe Newton should not have assumed that the apple was falling as a result of the attraction of the earth but seen the apple as being pushed towards the earth by the repulsive pressures exerted by the rest of the universe, a sort of visual illusion similar to the familiar example of the train in apparent movement. Then cosmological inflation would be an understandable result of this re-interpretation of gravity.

keith farman - latest programme
why doesn't the 'send this page to a friend' work?

Vacuum of Space
The assertion that that only a few things would be contained in a cubic meter of space is surely wrong. At any instant the cubic meter would have photons of light from every star in the visible universe passing through it, travelling in all directions. Dennis Yee

Michael Moorcock Multiverse
In the past I've tended to stay out of discussions concerning the multiverse, but having read and heard so much over the past forty eight years or so I felt, for the record, I'd like to mention my invention of this word in a pretty awful SF novel written in 1961 (when I was 21) where I applied it specifically to the idea of an infinity of worlds, of universes nesting within universes. The book, which also suggested a fresh theory explaining certain anomalies in existing space-time theories, and suggested the existence of 'black holes' is probably the worst book I ever wrote, but is the foundation of much of my later, more sophisicated work, both scientific and literary. The word has entered the language through a variety of forms from fiction to films, role-playing games and comics as well as the scientific community and, while it was used earlier in different contexts by William James and John Cowper Powys, it was in its most common current useage that I created it. Perhaps a pulp sf magazine isn't the most respectable source for such ideas, but neither of course was it for Arthur Clarke when he promoted the notion of the communications satellite which enabled me, happily, to hear the programme on my computer here in Texas last Thursdsay.

Trish : Vacuum of space
Thank you, thank you, thank you - for another programme on the wonder of the quantum universe. The more I hear, and read, about the mysteries of physics the more I find myself filled with wonder - and the more I can remember the next time the subject comes up. I must disagree with your correspondent who criticized the contributors for their use of metaphors. Not only is mataphor an excellent way to help understanding, but all the physicists I have known have told me that physics and philosophy are related - aren't both engaged with the search for answers beyond the visible ? As a history graduate, who felt very little interest in 'science' as I was taught it at school, and who knew even less about it, I have always thought it a great pity that there should be this belief in the 'factual, practical scientist' as a breed apart from the imaginative side of humanity. Surely the greatest thinkers in any sphere are those with imagination and creativity - the ones who dare to think the impossible.

Richard Leigh - Vacuums (or vacua?)
Don't see why we should try to do without metaphor. I suspect that it would be impossible beyond the first few sentences. We proceed from the known to the unknown, after all. An anecdote which could even be relevant to the last bit of the newsletter. Ronald Knox was listening to an agrument about the existence of a deity. Someone said that the exstence of human life on Earth was so amazing, so against the odds, that only the action of a creator could account for it. The objection was made that, with so many planets in the universe, there was bound to be human life on one of them. (Law of averages, stands to reason, etc etc). Knox said that if the police discovered a dismembered corpse in a trunk on Paddington Station they would not say "there are so many trunks in the world, there was bound to be a corpse in one of them" - they would try to acertain who put it there.

Chris Miller - Anthropic Universe
The postscript to Melvyn's newsletter suggests a future topic. Why are the physical underpinnings of the Universe - the fundamental physical constants - apparently fine-tuned to enable the development of life?

The Vacuum. Not god again...please
'Because the basics of modern physics is so ridiculously implausible, ie: unproveable, untrackable, unknowable, it does make the idea that a god ...etc'This comment was made by a friend of Mr Bragg at lunch after the show.Well, the problem is one that Kant recognised when he opined that there are 'things as they are' and things as they appear to humans'. We interpret the world through our five senses which have evolved to take measure and, together with specialised areas in the brain, build a model of the world. To underline the point, our eyes are able to sense only a small part of the electromagnetic spectrum. They can not sense radio waves or x-rays or even ultra-violet light, for example, all of which are electromagnetic radiation.No, the human eye evolved to deal with things that are directly relevant to survival by natural selection.Therefore, it is not surprising that the world of the very small, where quantum mechanics dominates, are outside of our day-to-day experience and appear to be 'ridiculously implausible'. However, this is only a surface view, science has models to present to the world that are open to scrutiny and are able to predict experimental outcomes with a high degree of certainty. What is more, technology has been able to profit from these models and produce working devices such as lasers and transistors which have transformed our societies.To suggest that the world is a strange place which has not yet yielded its full knowledge and, therefore, god needs to be added to the mix is intellectual capitulation.Malcolm Jenkins. Atheist

Kath Potter -- Nothing
I was particularly interested in Melvyn's remark after the show about faith. As a 'floating voter' myself I would love to have a whole programme on the existence or otherwise of God

Where Are the Wild Things?
I refer to Melvyn's newsletter of 1 May 2009, hinting that the St. James Park wildlife are being interned without trial at a secret location. I suspect that being Wild Things they will once again return to make our hearts sing once the lake is restored. Being wild, they will undoubtedly through personal initiative have found alternative temporary 'decant' accommodation, since they unfortunately fail to meet statutory homelessness criteria and (not being human) are unlikely to have any cause of action under the Human Rights Act. So we are unlikely to hear:'May it please your Lordship I represent a small contingent of Canada Geese and my learned friend appears for the Mallards referred to in the Claim Form. . .'.Yours sincerely,Nicholas Dobson

Ian Francis: St James Park ducks
The failure of intelligence here is not difficult to attribute. Massive expenditure on Sigint has produced nothing, and the sources of Humint are simply not in place. The government must now commit sensible investment into the adaptation of drone aircraft to shadow wild bird movements. If just a small proportion of what has been given to the banks etc, etc

John - Vacuum - and Program Suggestion
Very Good Show IOT and Many Thanks again for clear logic.To augment these programs Please consider having the outstanding and very well spoken philosopher Keith Ward. He has this uncanny ability to bridge the gap soundly, clearly and logically (in a balanced way) between science and the human person... He will be an outstanding contributor...It would be great for a fan of IOT's educational subjects to hear a contributor like Keith Ward on any of your science, philosophy or religion episodes.I listen to Keith Ward's Gresham College lectures and see that he is a prolific author and note that Dr Ward would contribute so well to many I.O.T. subjects and episodes.......BIO: ...Keith Ward is a fellow of the British Academy, the Regius Professor of Divinity Emeritus at the University of Oxford, an ordained priest of the Church of England, and a member of the Council of the Royal Institute of Philosophy. He holds doctorates of divinity from Cambridge and Oxford. He has been a university lecturer at the Universities of Glasgow, St. Andrews, Cambridge, and London, where he was professor or history and philosophy of religion. The author of more than twenty highly acclaimed books, Ward is particularly interested in comparative theology and the interplay between science and religion. Keith Ward lives in Oxford, England.

John - Vacuum - and Program Suggestion
Very Good Show IOT and Many Thanks again for clear logic.To augment these programs Please consider having the outstanding and very well spoken philosopher Keith Ward. He has this uncanny ability to bridge the gap soundly, clearly and logically (in a balanced way) between science and the human person... He will be an outstanding contributor...It would be great for a fan of IOT's educational subjects to hear a contributor like Keith Ward on any of your science, philosophy or religion episodes.I listen to Keith Ward's Gresham College lectures and see that he is a prolific author and note that Dr Ward would contribute so well to many I.O.T. subjects and episodes.......BIO: ...Keith Ward is a fellow of the British Academy, the Regius Professor of Divinity Emeritus at the University of Oxford, an ordained priest of the Church of England, and a member of the Council of the Royal Institute of Philosophy. He holds doctorates of divinity from Cambridge and Oxford. He has been a university lecturer at the Universities of Glasgow, St. Andrews, Cambridge, and London, where he was professor or history and philosophy of religion. The author of more than twenty highly acclaimed books, Ward is particularly interested in comparative theology and the interplay between science and religion. Keith Ward lives in Oxford, England.

Iain - Vacuum
Really fascinating programme, but one question I felt remained inadequately answered - what is the universe expanding into? We were told earlier that all motion is relative, so presumably its expansion must be relative to something that isn't expanding. And if space itself is expanding, how could we be aware of it, as presumably we and our perceptions would be expanding too? It sound to me as if it's the things within the universe that are moving apart from one another, rather than the universe itself getting bigger (bigger than what?). If anyone can clear this up I will be very grateful...

Brian Nesbitt; vacuum
Dear Melvin,I greatly enjoyed your latest programme about vacuum. As a mechanical engineer, I don't think vacuums exist in nature on the earth. A near perfect vacuum must be manufactured and maintained. In engineering terms, nature definitely does abhor a vacuum. Vacuum seals are more sophisticated than pressure seals.Pascal's atmospheric experiment with two liquids of different densities was very well conceived but poorly executed. The choice of liquids was inappropriate. Water was a good choice, a single compound, but the experiment may have been compromised by poor procedures. Wine was a poor choice; a mixture of liquid compounds and the water contained dissolved compounds. The liquid choice was poor because of a lack of understanding of the physical and thermodynamic properties.An inverted liquid column in a sealed tube, supported by atmospheric pressure on a body of open liquid, is not surmounted within the tube by a vacuum. Water will be surmounted by steam, saturated water vapour. The pressure in the 'void' will be the vapour pressure corresponding to the water temperature. At 20 degC the pressure would be 0.023 bar(a); about a 44th of the atmospheric pressure.The preceding statement will be completely accurate providing distilled water was used and the water handling was appropriate to avoid entrainment or solution of 'air'. Fresh water contains dissolved and entrained gases. The 'void' above the liquid column would contain water vapour and gas(es) at a pressure determined by the relevant concentrations and partial pressures.Wine consists of alcohol, contaminated water and possibly dissolved carbon dioxide from the fermentation process. Ethyl alcohol dissolves carbon dioxide better than water. The 'void' above the liquid column would contain alcohol vapour, water vapour and carbon dioxide and possibly other gases. At 20 degC the vapour pressure of alcohol would be about 0.026 bar(a).Comparison of the two liquid columns would not produce accurate, repeatable results. Wine is not a definitive 'liquid' just as fresh water is just not 'water'.Mercury is a very good liquid choice apart from its advantages of very high density. Mercury has a very low vapour pressure. Vapour pressures at 126 degC:mercury 1 mm Hg (about 0.0013 bar(a))water 1816 mm Hgethyl alcohol 3800 mm Hg.I don't think liquid mercury is very good at dissolving gases but I don't have supporting data.One factor your guests failed to impart, a very important factor, is that liquids cannot be sucked. Liquids have a very low tensile strength and are unable to support tensile stresses. Liquids must be pushed, compressive stresses. This is why the 'vacuum tube' experiment works differently depending on the weather and the location, and importantly, the liquid temperature. Gases and vapours can be sucked.Kindest regards,Brian NesbittConsulting

Peter Jackson. Cosmic Dust & Vac.
Nice balance Melvyn, not tooo dumbed down for a physicist to listen to but, it seems, ok for public - all those metaphores essential for that!Probably sensible your guests avoided the central issue, that the ether doesn't work, ..at all.. alongside relativity. Yet we know they both work! You dealt with this main paradox with Penrose a few weeks ago, the answer being termed the 'Holy Grail' everyones looking for.But I've got news. They're not. As your guests proved by avoiding it. Physics is based in academia, which is solely dependant on maintaining grant funding for existing projects & areas, mainly maths based. This means positively excluding and ignoring the original conceptual 'big picture' thinking of Newton, Goethe, Maxwell, Einstein etc. The type of thinking that has solved ALL the big problems in the past. Anyone who thinks like that now is shut out as they're obviously a nutter! There are many other paradoxes in physics, and the answer to many of them is consequential on the answer to the first. But, to 'para'quote, (was it Ruth or Jocelyn?) "we have an ability to ignore ..things.. if they don't say what we want to hear". Penrose asked the question but doesn't even reply to anyone with the answer as they must be nuts! But to be fair he's part of the overwhelming majority! There is simply no mechanism left for even just checking over original thought, even if it's results entirely proven. (Unless someone knows a method?). No wonder we've been stuck for 100yrs now! Do we deserve to progress?

jane - vacuum - Geoff Bunn
You see, I thought that Melvyn had finally persuaded some academics to talk in welcome analogies and found that it helped the brain to grasp concepts quickly and easily.....he just can't win can he! Loved the programme - for me it was an 'oasis' with the most palatable water - truly. Great big thanks as alway. Best wishes.

Vacuum - great fun!
Listening to Jocelyn Bell Burnell - the woman who discovered pulsars, no less - talking about 'being at a party and finding 20 quid' was absolutely priceless. Did I hear giggling in the background?! Loved the programme anyway, cheers!Dave Robinson, London

Alan Clifford Vacuum of Space
There was great discussion about what medium electro-magnetic waves travel in across space. It used to be called 'The Ether', but nowadays I think it must be the residual energy of the 'Big bang'. If so before the Big Bang there was no light, there was nothing for it to travel in. Just as there can be no waves in a dry pond. Another oddity from this idea is that the speed of light is a function of the media it travels in, but as the residual energy from the Big Bang is the only medium there is, the speed of light is a constant. What do clever people think of this concept?

The Vacuum of Space
There is one “thing” that should help where the notion of “Dark energy"did not. It is true that the universe is expanding faster that it should, but it doesn’t mean it is going to continue expanding eternally. There will be the times and have been the times, though, when his expansion is slower than it, by the calculations of physicists, should be. It is all due to the “Dumbledor’s effect”, the physical phenomenon I have observed a few times. If it is confirmed it maybe wouldn’t be a bad idea to keep that name.Let me explain:” The local universes don’t all have identical masses and the frequencies, at which they oscillate, accordingly, also slightly differ. Due to that, it, after a number of “Big Bangs”, happens that some of neighboring local universes have their “Big bangs” temporary close to itch other. It is a relatively frequent phenomenon, which happens maybe once at every ten “Big bangs” per universe, by my estimate. But it would be better to take this only as a guessed order of magnitude for the frequency of the event. Any way I did no explain the nature of that phenomenon yet. At such “moments” the speeds of contraction of all the members of that group are adjusted, so that they reach their final phase of contraction at the same instant. They then do not go thru the ordinary Big Bangs, but congregate in one point in the center of the group, so that it comes to something that I am inclined to call: “Hyper big bang”. Afterwards they all take their “old” position and continue to expand further. The universes are perfect spheres and have average distances of ten diameters of one fully expanded universe. The event is best observable in its final phase, but mutual influences must be present all the time (and not only between the universes that are close to each other). And that would be the simple and inexpensive explanation for the fact that our universe is experiencing acceleration rather than retardation of its expansion’s velocity. After “the unified field theory” was finished, that unknown physical mechanism by which the universes exchange either its anti gravitational or gravitational energy will emerge as one of its consequences. In my opinion, if I may say so. Now it is only that theory which has to be done. And it is easy! I mean it’s either easy or impossible. The other method would be to hover as one astral projection between the universes and see maybe the few of such events consecutively, as it has happened to me. But as far as I can remember you have better chances to come into that position if you previously have had a habit of completing that theory.”Thanks to J.K.Rowling whose story has helped me a lot to explain this story. The scene when wizard Dumledore comes to the street where young Harry Potter is going to be living after the death of his parents and the catastrophe the wizard world has undergone is slightly differently depicted in the book (Harry Potter and Philosopher Stone) then in the movie. In the book the lamps just went out due to the action of the Dumbledor’s silver cigarette lighter, whereas in the movie, as far as I remember, the lights are all collected one by one in that lighter and than send back to the lamps. The scene in the book is much more effective as it is told there; in somewhat darker manner than in the movie. Best wishes to all at BBC4, all the listeners and they relatives and neighbors and so on.

(Mrs.) R. Mickleburgh.....The Vacuum of Space
I often listen to this programme and don't pretend always to understand everything but enjoy discussions between presumedly intelligent people. On this occasion though I was disgusted by the frequent cheap language and jibes by one of the female guests - particularly the "let's make fun of the railways" bandwaggon. Does she think she has to speak down in this way to help "Mr. Average" understand?I found her comments patronising and insulting and a disgrace to the programme, as was the laughter from Mr. Bragg and other guests. Only one person - Mr. Close I assume - seemed, rightly, to show some embarrasment(I see I am not the only one to take exception to this programme!)

Dorian Marius Goring BA MSc PGCE
VACUOUS VACUUMJ Bell-Bernell great! Lovely easy explanations. A joy to listen, as always Melvyn. Thank you

James Baring - The nature of Space Time
Sorry, this discussion revealed the poor understanding of the participants in one fundamental respect. The aether idea had to be changed but it should never have been 'abolished' as if there was no spacetime frame of reference. Special Rel. only exists in the context of General Rel. which defines any frame of reference. Einstein's thought experiment led by reductio to the space-time theory but must then be junked as it is not just time that stops, space contracts. That means exactly this: whatever speed Einstein and his mirror COULD reach, he would see his face in the mirror just the same. That does NOT mean there is no aether, merely that it is not independent of the energy, mass and light being measured. Not an independent medium. Call it a Higgs Field if you like, and devise an experiment which if taken to extreme can produce what you call a particle, but its properties extend beyond such ideas. Until this is properly explained, which you failed to do, rational listeners will remain mystified. I am glad some seem to have been satisfied but I think they may have been misled. The rest was OK as far as it went which is quite far enough for the moment.

Jazspeak - The Vacuum of Space
This was a very engaging discussion that tackled some fundamental aspects of our Universe. Many of the analogies were a good attempt to explain some very difficult ideas, although one or two of those analogies did seem a little too trite by today's standards of popular understanding - particularly the persistence with the 'rubber sheet' model of the Universe, which is at least one dimension short of reality. All in all, there were some very interesting points of view expressed by the guests.

Paulpic stream of nothing
In constructive geometry 1/nothing = infinity. So, maybe both nothing and everthing will be forever just beyond our grasp. But, what do I know; I was waiting all week for this show and the silly computer streaming dealy isn't generating anything. Is that an example of irony for someone with nothing better to do?

The Vacuum
Google Roberto Monti's 'The Real Einstein' for a scholarly piece on how the Michelson-Morley experiment was, contrary to popular opinion, not null (as Michelson recognised); and also on how subsequent interferometer experiments have invariably demonstrated a pronounced Michelson-Sagnac effect, which shows that an ether - a nonrelative reference frame of some kind or other - underpins the propagation of light. Once more, relativity is shown to be wrong, as an increasing number of engineers, physicists, astonomers, logicians and so on are coming to recognise.

Aether: Dr. Akira Kanda
Having said on the mislead interpretation of MM's experiment in support of Maxwell's aether theory, I have to admit that this concept has a serious problem. According to Maxwell's em field theory, depending upon the impedance of the medium, the speed of light through the medium changes. Fine. However, Maxwell also claims that aether is all pervasive. This means that in non-vacuum medium, aether exist. Then the light must be able to travel through non-vacuum medium using the aether inside with speed c. Some physicists say that non-vacuum mediums are made of particles and light loses energy by hitting these particles. However, em theory says that light carries energy not as its speed but as its frequency.

All Recent topics
The description of each topic has become ridiculously inadequate giving only the names of contributors not even their positions in society and sadly nothing on the topic itself.

Vacuum, aether: Dr. Akira Kanda
Assume aether as per Maxwell. Consider an emitter and reflector moving with the same velocity against aether. Let d be the distance between them. The light path of the light from the emitter back to it from the perspective of the aether is 2d. From the perspective of the emitter-reflector, it also is 2d. Here we are considering this situation in classical setting and so, the clocks and rods in all inertial frames are synchronised and identical. This means, MM's zero result is completely consistent with Maxwell's aether theory. MM never refuted the existence of aether. Correct interpretation of MM result is that we cannot detect the aether by measuring the speed of light as MM did. This situation can be explicated in a more intrinsic way as follows: Assume a train runs with constant speed v. At distance d, it flashes light towards you. Then the light path from your perspective is d. So, v is irrelevant here. Assuming the Principle of Relativity as Einstein did causes a contradiction here. From the train's perspective, according to the Principle of relativity, it is you who is moving towards the train. Then the light path is d-vt where t is the time required for the light to reach you. So, we have an obvious contradiction d=d-vt. The problem here is that for aether, you moving and the train moving are entirely different things. So, wave mechanics avoids this contradiction by rejecting the principle of Relativity. That MM dis not refute the existence of aether and that wave mechanics rejects the Principle of relativity calls in reexamining the validity of Einstein's Special Relativity Theory.

John B.
Thanks I.O.T. and ContributorsGreat Show...The show ended where it began, with the Ether having returned but defined differently...It's very interesting that the old notion of the ether, a century later, conceptualized differently, having a multiplicity of new functions is still back according to your physicists... "Every cubic foot of space" seems to contain higgs bosons, dark matter, a flurry of electromagnetic activity, "worms of activity" (as your physicist said) be full of virtual particles, contain radiation, contain resident waves and particles, and other things ad infinitum. ....Perhaps there is as much resistance to the ether returning as there was to it being done away with. In a sense, of course this is playing with semantics and definitions.....The Ether today is very different than what it was proposed to be a century ago.... But it's still clear that empty space, (filled with all this energy, radiation and activity, that light DOES PASS THROUGH one way or another), can be called the "New Ether" or perhaps a type of quantum ether.Very Best,John B

Tom Milner-Gulland - vaccum
Intriguing that the guests were one minute telling us that there is no ether (on whose ontology there has never been any full consensus), and the next, that space is full of forces (incidentally, Tesla, Bedini and others have harnessed these to make much-ignored, but effective 'free energy' devices; for a metaphysical perspective, see Bergson's Matter and Memory). I was disappointed that no mention was made of the recent revival of ether theory (and increasingly convincing rebuttals of the thesis that the universe is expanding -- refer for example to Halton Arp's anomalous redshift). No talk either of the extraordinary Allais effect observed at eclipses, which may render redundant the idea of dark matter, and, as if to suggest an ether, forms a nexus between magnetic field (of planets) and gravitation.I could only ever subscribe to a metaphysical ether, in accordance with the notion that energy transcends physics. Light is emitted and received according to fixed principles, including those involving intermediate absoprtive, reflective or refractive entities; but it is a question of its according with the principles while not undergoing physical transit. It is no kind of physics to suggest that etheric particles conform to one set of principles and matter, another. Also, any speak of distance, when not in reference to Newtonian mechanics, is surely nonsensical. We should ditch the literal idea of subatomic distance in favour of reference purely to energetic exchange; and return also to ideas of a metaphysical substrate (whether or not Aristotle believed in one such has been contested, with possible mistranslations having crept in -- see Chorlton).

dark energy/matter
I would love to know what the difference between dark energy/matter and 'the aether' is. Both appear to be concepts introduced to explain the inexplicable, both appear to be directly unobservable.

The Vacuum of Space
I have never heard a proper scientist confirm this, but I thought that the medium that electro-magnetic waves vibrated in was the residual energy from the big bang; formaly called 'the Ether'.I didn't hear anyone on the program consider this. Before the big bang there was no light because there was no residual energy. What do clever people think of this idea?

Peter Jones: Nothingness
Listening to this programme, I felt as if one had found oneself in a jungle and the only way forward was to get further and further into the mire, with no hope of a certainoutcome. Is it not time for scientists to begin to question the existence of a material universe outside of consciousness, and to consider the possibility of it being a mentalcreation. That being said, since science is based on the assumption that there is a material world "out there", such a change in thinking is probably too much to ask!

Brian Ferris The Vacuum of Space
An interesting programme, generally well explained so far as is possible but the crucial question, for me, was "into what is the universe expanding?" and this was asked but never answered. Perhaps the lady contributor who "answered" could be asked to elucidate. Surely the answer is not "the vacuum of space" or we are back where we started from.

Ian, The Vacuum of Space
A little disappointed that Ruth Gregory decided to use the (misleading) 'kicking things with photons' account of the uncertainty principle. Especially as she got halfway to explaining it properly for photons to do so.

John in Hong Kong on Vacuum.
Terrific programme. In Our Time is a marvellous programme, but this was realy something special. Excellent speakers who discussed the subject with great wit and verve. More please.

r, vacuum of space
good programme, thanks.

Vacuum
It seems the metaphors(for empty space)were rolling.The subject was like laughing gas to the participants.Can we not just keep simple subjects basicinstead of getting carried away.Thiscould have been clowning in 6 easy stages.It's almost analagous to how many angels can you get on the head of a pin.We are dealing with the very very small almost invisible world ofminute particles and so metaphors flourish. Melvyn giggles in the face of all this dissolving of matter intonothing(always coming back to the table).I begin to feel he's dealt withthis subject one too many times,thinkshimself a dab hand at it now,that somelaziness has crept in,that he's lost a little sharpness in pinning things down.We are in the world of Heiddegerean space-time.Let's get back to simple space and time in which our bodies move.Clean out the Augean Stables.

Jon Hurwitz - subject suggestion
I heard on the radio last week that it was the 40th anniversary of the Open University. I wonder if there could be a programme on the history and future of distance learning. Or would that be a little self-referential?

Ann Gavriel - Vacuum.. Space
Excellent analogies and explanations. Thank you for this wonderful In Our Time, superbly enlightening... But still unanswered was the question (Melvyn asked towards the end): what is everything expanding INTO (or 'rushing away from everything else') into? If the universe is everything, how can 'it' expand into 'what is not'?? Can someone please help me conceive of this without logical or conceptual contradiction? Thank you....

Roy VACUUM OF SPACE
I very much enjoyed the Melvyn Bragg discussion and will certainly listen to it again very carefully. However in common with all recent discourse on accelerating red shifts, dark energy, Higgs Boson etc. there is never any mention of the curvature of space (or dare I say curvature of Spacetime). As I understand it, the concept that space is curved is not disputed. It has been explained to me that the curvature of space is left out of cosmological models because we do not have a figure of magnitude for the radius of curvature. (There is also the problem that time is relative and poorly understood and therefore only linear aspects of time are used in such models.) I feel that any discussion of the accelerating red shift and related matters should make some reference to the curvature of space. I could expand a little on my thoughts on the matter, but for the sake of brevity, (and the fact that the whole subject makes my head hurt) I ask a simple question. Why is the curvature of space not considered relevant to such discussions? BTW As a clue to my way of thinking. If space is truly curved, then the Big Bang might eventually become the Big Implosion and time will start again. Or if you think in terms of relative time, the Big Bang and the Big Implosion and everything in between is happening NOW and FOREVER.

Frank Gilbert
Excellent programme but, most frustratingly, a missed opportunity to wind it up perfectly. With 'Nothing' having eluded being pinned down, it was explained right at the end of the programme that what was expanding was 'Space itself'. Begging the coup de grâce: INTO WHAT? So, triumphantly, we may have at last arrived at 'Nothing'.

Vacuous Vacuum
"A real one round the block" concluded Melvyn at the end - appropriately on a metaphor. But the entire show was saturated indeed structured with metaphors: 'imagine space like a stretched rubber sheet; 'a man wants to borrow 20 quid' etc. So I got to thinking: Can theoretical physicists not discuss their subject without recourse to discourse? This week's show contained so many analogies that I began to wonder if there was any non-poetic knowledge there at all. I thought science was meant to be literal not metaphoric!How about a show on science and metaphor? I propose you do Psychology next as we're getting tired with Higgs Bosons (named after NOT the first proposer of that particle incidently) and Uncertain cats. We know that all Psychological knowledge is metaphorical, but is Physics too?Geoff Bunn

Dermod O'Reilly
VACUUMAn excellent programme. A balanced (plenty about doubts and failures) with a very clear exposition of the (known) directions this fascinating subject might go. Melvyn excelled this time.

Theo Read The universe
I have been listening to the programme and it has been brilliant - wonderful contributors with some very creative images to help me understand elements of physics - thank you!

Ken Thorp, Vacuum
Light on Dark Matter(vacuum)The matter was clear the scientist dreamedWithout its own anti so solid it seemedBalance the two and lo and beholdA vacuum appears, this is nothing we’re toldA vacuum is everything balanced and wholeIt is the universe, that is its roleThe bits that are missing, they form you and meAnd like kind of bits is all we may seeWhere is my anti you wondering thinkBack of beyond, or just out of sync?From matter to anti the cycle goes onAnd quantum results strobe each one by one We need some dark matter with lots of dimensionsTo allow us Big Bang and other conventionsDimensions and matter and with some to spareJust think inside out if you dare, if you dare! Gravity never did seek to attractJust human perspective makes this seem a factPopulous vacuum instead must repelGalaxies, stars and people as well We’re all pushed together, expelled from the darkEach atom, electron, neutron and quarkDark matter is there, hiding passive as noughtEvading all tests, will it ever get caught?But it will be plain to those that would seeThat it’s all of nothing, unlike you and meBalance of forces like nature intendedBosuns and Mesons with waveform extendedHarmonious whole carries light waves cross spaceCompletes atom shells, gives electrons their placeFills all the gaps, completes all the storyThe masterful puzzle that still is God’s glory Author: Ken Thorp Physics Undergraduate, Open University kenthorp@talktalk.net

Graham Ogden..... new subject?
As its Johnson's tercentenary, are there any plans to make him the subject of In Our Time? If you have done so and i've missed it, can you tell me how to access it?

VACUOUS VACUUM
Space is not only NOT A VACUUM, it is full of conductive plasma carrying flows of electricity that mediate many observed phenomena. Search: 'The Electric Universe'.

St.Petersburg
When I was a young man I went on a 13 day Baltic cruise which ended up in St Petersburg(then Leningrad).This waspre-Glasnost.I remember me and anothercolleague being shown to a restaurantby a Leningradian and he ordered andpaid for a meal for both of us and left.Certainly an unusually fine type of hospitality! I'll never forget ourtotal surprise.This never occurred tome anywhere else.

William - Downloads
Dear 'In Our Time'I am very interested in your 'philosophy resource' section, especially the greatest philosophers shortlist and the audio as to why you should vote for each philosopher. Unfortunately, they are only avilable in .ram format. Like most people, I don't want to sit at my computer and listen to each of these, I want to be able to listen to them on the run! I feel that not having these available in mp3 format to download, makes this resource inaccessible and mostly useless. Please make it available in mp3!- William.

jane -
Just wanted to send my usual large thanks. The issues of suffragism in last week's programme and Catherine the Great in this week's.....we're an oddly erratic species. The comments always show just how many different 'ears' we all listen with....I'll lay the odds on some good responses to next week's subject! Best wishes to all.

Ed Dovey / St Petersburg
Really enjoyed the programme. Nice point made about how much the three ruling empresses;- Anna, Elizabeth and Catherine the Great, contributed to the development of St Petersburg, ( and indeed to that of Russia as a great power.Didn't really need the graphic description of how Peter the Great died in Melvyn's Newsletter!

St Petersburg
HelloI visited Amsterdam some years ago. And throughout the stay was in wonderment at the sheer scale of the achievement of building a city around so many canals. Perhaps you could give the 'In Our Time' treatment to the building of Amsterdam. I subsequently did some research of my own but was not satisfied that I got to the bottom of the brutality side of it. Who built the canals - was it conscripts as in the case of St Petersburg, or was it slaves or was it the Dutch population and what machinery did they have at their disposal? Just finished reading 'Brave New World'. Thank you for some very interesting programming. Kind RegardsHarsha Savjani (Ms)

Brian Hughes - St Petersburg
Another fine, entertaining and informative programme (and Renaissance-man's newsletter) this week. I learnt more about Russian and East European history of the period plus some bonus stuff around architecture and power in your 42 minutes than I ever knew before...

Dave Taylor
The German philosopher/sociologist, Jurgen Habermas will be 80 on June 18th. To mark this occasion an enlightening discussion of his work would be most welcome. Perhaps Habermas expert, William Outhwaite of Newcastle University could contribute?

(Re)building of St Petersberg
Perhaps a few moments on the (Re)building of St Petersberg (then Leningrad)after the Nazis had destroyed it? Russians say if you want to get the 'feel' of Russia; go to Moscow; St P is 'too European'.

John Clark - Possible future topics
I cannot find any other email way of asking a question of you - so I am using this comment section.Given the anniversaries of the birth of Samuel Johnson - and the death of Handel are there any plans for In Our Time conversations about these very significant people and their contribution to the English language and the world of music and opera?

Gary: When is the IOT book being published?
I heard that a book is to be published based on topics featured on IOT. Does anyone know when it will be available?Thanks

James Scott-Thursday's programme
I enjoy the programme each week , there isn't a wasted minute (dead space) and it cannot be easy for all those present. I also enjoy the walk through London after the programme and the what happened and sometimes what might have been. Value for money any time. best wishes to all involved.

Maurice Price ~ St. Petersburg programme
What a gripping programme. I just loved every minute and have decided to visit. If only my history teacher at school had not made it sound so dull and impersonal I would have made this vow to myself years ago. Thanks for the inspiration.

St Petersburg, Russia
As a young Man I was in Leningrad in the 1960,s. Now it is called St Petersburg. On the internet St Petersburg is a tourist destination, type in Leningrad and its a different story. Which one is correct? mostly todays UK teachers have never heard of Leningrad! history re-written? and wrongly for the thousands of Russians who died in that city during WW2.

Richard S - St Petersburg
Too much to cram in, but I would have liked a mention of Daniel Wheeler, the Quaker who drained the marshes round the city and made them agriculturally productive in the 1820s. Tsar Alexander I had met Quakers when in London and asked them to find an engineer/agriculturalist who was capable and trustworthy. The story is in J O Greenwood 'Vines on the Mountains', Sessions 1977. This also tells of the Quaker James Finlayson who set up the cotton mill that makes Tampere in Finland look like Lancashire.

Charles Suffragism
The idea that women were hard done by compared to men is, of course, nonsense.Even today, it is men, not women, who make up the majority of victims in just about every area imaginable.

Cinema
I think you should do an In Our Time on Bergman's Persona or Fellini's 8 1/2, looking through your culture archive I can't find any film based ones. Why overlook one of the major modern art forms? Love the show by the way, The Waste Land one was excellent

Bacon/inductive method
What? A whole programme on Bacon and no mention of scepticism? Scepticism saw off the apriorism of scholastic Aristotelianism and gave the authoritative push towards the empiricism which science exemplifies: 'you only know what is evident and only provisionally'. Bacon's Essays were named after Montaigne's which strongly back the skeptic horse and were hugely successful both sides of the channel. Bacon's exponency of induction was in context of skepticism being the philosophy du jour.

jane - Suffragism
This is an incredible programme - it doesn't just bring things to light, it brings them to life. I've often thanked Melvyn but this week I feel particularly inclined to thank James Cook. Shouldn't his picture be up on the website too? (Unless he prefers anonymity.) There's been much nonsense between the two sexes for so long - I light heartedly taught my daughter very early on about these sort of issues in order to 'forearm' her. "Victims of their own biology".....bit like 'kettle calling pan black' if we take the Y chromosome into consideration! The subject is vast, deeply ingrained and not yet fully resolved .... however, I turned off the radio deeply touched by what I'd heard. Wandering through to my kids I said, with a renewal of hope in my heart (naf as that may seem), "You know, amidst the madness and mayhem of this strange planet there are always a few amazing people who somehow keep things at least a bit on the right track". What shining jewels those women were - I'm not proud to admit that I don't think I could muster that sort of physical courage, even in the face of such injustices as they were addressing. It was an extraordinary heroism. I really want to thank you for this particular programme which produced a certain and very humble 'sea-change' in me. Best wishes as always.

In Our Time - Science Programmes
I'm a regular listener to In Our Time and particularly enjoy the science transmissions.Are you making any more programmes featuring the likes of Steve Jones, Jane Francis, Richard Corfield or Margaret Clegg?These people are thoroughly at ease with their subjects and impart their knowledge in a digestible and entertaining manner.

léo burton suffragettes
there was no reference to the participation of women in the paris commune....did these parisiennes influence the british womens' movement?

Mitzi Auchterlonie Women's Suffrage
I was, as usual, disappointed that after 1903 all the emphasis on the women's suffrage movement is put on the activities of the militant suffragettes, without any further reference to the suffragists led by Millicent Fawcett (who were far greater in number), who continued their peaceful campaigning. There were other suffrage groups too, like the Conservative and Uniionist Women's Franchise Association, who were founded in 1908 in reaction to the increased militancy of the WSPU and the founding of the Anti-Suffrage League. Party politics cannot be left out of the suffrage movement - the women who joined the NUWSS, the CUWFA, the WSPU and the Women's Freedom League very often had strong party allegiances which affected their campaigning agendas.

women's suffrage
i try to listen to in our time most weeks sometimes the subject matter is totally new to me but never the less i find it all fascinating this weeks programme was wonderful as a graduate in women's studies well done!

Kenneth Marshall : Women's suffrage
When asked for the reasons that the suffrage movement encountered such strong opposition, even amongst other women, none of the experts, nor Melvyn, mentioned the role of religion. The bible states, in the book of Genesis, that God made woman as man's "helper" (only after he couldn't find one of the animals to give him a hand) (Chapter 2: verses 18 to 22) and that man should "rule over" woman (Ch. 3: v.16). I can't believe that, in what, at that time, would have been a far more God-fearing country than Britain is now, clear scriptural authority such as this would not have affected people's views.

Suffragism and Sylvia Pankhurst.
I was interrupted during the programme and may have missed a reference to Sylvia Pankhurst but anyway I want to bring up her contribution to the cause. First, as a gifted artist she, with support in Parliament from her mentor, keir Hardie, publicised the bias of the Royal College of Art over the award of scholarships almost exclusively to men.The College was shamed into relaxing their policies. This was part of the wider demand for more access to higher education, as referred to in the programme. In 1909, shortly after leaving the College, she toured the country recording the harsh conditions of working women ('the Angel of the Hearth supporters appaerently were blind to the money required to sustain this fantasy). Among her discovereies was that women employed in the potteries women put to lead glazingwhich was not only lowest paid but also was exposing them to being them seves poisoned but also causing them to miscarry or bear children with defects. In agriculture, many labourers were provided with tied cottages, which tied not only them but also their wives to labour. (This double bind was still in force in Kent in the 60s) But the lease was in the husband's name only since married women had no seperate legal identity. In the event of a man's premature death, his widow and children had no rights to remain. As there were no votes to be gained from women, candidate MPs would have no interest in promoting reforms in their conditions. (This was lightly touched on in the programme)Nevertheless, as the years passed, Sylvia's time was increasingly devoted to direct caring for poor working class women and the split between her and Emmeline and Christabel became final with the outbreak of war in 1914. Sylvia was a pacifist, Christabel the opposite.

Mary Wollstonecraft
So good to hear a mention of her in your programme on suffragettes! Wollstonecraft's 250th birthday is next week. I know there are some events in London (debate, lecture, tombstone tribute, etc.), but will there be anything on R4? Why not have a whole show on her, albeit later on this year?The descriptions of the forced feeding were the most gruesome I've come across. It all deserves to be remembered.

Reuben Anderson - Suffragism
I don't understand the idea that there's masculine resistance to the rising equality of women. I appreciate it might look like that from a high level view and broad brush statistics - but exactly when and how does this actually happen? In my entire life I cannot recall a single instance where I've been aware of any circumstance where a woman has been discriminated against, to any degree, because of her gender. In my professional life, both as an engineer and then as an IT analyst, a colleague's gender has never borne the slightest relevance of any sort. If such sexism does still exist, (obviously we mean in the western world), I would argue that it's a generational anachronism and that in future, as my generation become the elders of this society, this will pass away. This is the century of women. We've just seen a US election where a woman was seriously considered as a presidential candidate (and would have won the nomination bar the phenomenon that is Obama). Watch it - this world is changing, and fast.

The Newsletter
Very briefly; I wish Lord Bragg would not (seemingly always) mention the beautiful sunny weather, as he walks through Central London after recording a programme.Here in Leicester it seems to have been, dull, damp and dreary - not to speak of cold - since some time last September. I believe the weather in Lord Bragg's native stamping ground has even been fine and warm in the last few days. What have we done wrong in the Midlands?

Kerry Brave new world
So many interesting comments already, so mine is confined to warmest congratulations to all concerned. A programme of greater quality or relevance is hard to imagine. And Melvyn kept his interruptions in check!

Votes For Women Collie
Was the behaviour of the Liberal Party & govt (esp forcible feeding of prisoners) cause of the Strange Death pf Liberal England? Or was all this overwhelmed by the Great War?

janet baker.suffragism
I was surprised and disappointed that no mention was made of Sylvia Pankhurst. Why is such an important figure so often sidelined? She worked from a more socialist and left-wing position and so gathered support from a very wide range of people - politically people like Keir Hardie but also disadvantaged women who were largely ignored by the more middle class suffragists. I am sorry you did not take the opportunity to bring her contribution to the fore and, perhaps in doing so, raise support for the memorial to her on Parliament Square. This is at present being blocked by the House of Lords, inspite of the agreement of the Commons and Westminster City Council. Emmeline and Christabel are already honoured by a memorial in Victoria Tower Gardens.

J Speel: Suffragettes
No mention of the role of women in local government, school boards and similar. This participation began in the latter part of the 19th century and was used as an argument for gaining the parliamentary franchise.

Suffragism
This weeks programme seemed curiously dry, bearing in mind the significance and volatility of the suffragette movement in our political history.Perhaps too much air time was devoted to the early history of the development of the movement for womens rights. We did not really get to hear much about the violent demonstrations of the early 20C, when the suffragettes were most active. There was little said of the women who armed themselves with knives axes and explosives and set about the leading polititions of the day.A great many arrests were made and charges brought with various offenses including arson and attacks on the like of Prime Minister Asquith.One was left with the impression that the movement was largely London based when in fact many of the activists came from Manchester and the North. The Pankhursts were all from Chorlton in Medlock. Mary Gawthorpe, Dora Marden and Ellen Wilkinson were Northern Girls.Also it is not really right to say that it was a working class movement. Those most active seemed to have been predominately from the educated upper middle classes. They were undoubtedly struck by the very difficult and unfair conditions endured by working class women in the mills and factories of the north. And particularly the desperate circumstances of such women with children and no husbands.The programme seemed to make little or no connection with the Manchester Liberal support given to the womens movement. Lloyd George, another person from Chorlton in Medlock, gave support, although he was later attacked by suffragettes, who tried to set fire to his house.The atheist Charles Bradlaugh, Northamptons MP was a valiant supporter too. Did the contributor from Northampton University get this across, or did I miss it? (Listen again not working at the moment)What happened to the Irish Home Rule connection? The Suffragettes supporters were also pushing for this and there were demonstrations and the "Dublin Outrages" involving violent acts by the more militant activists.We did get to hear about force-feeding in the prisons. But here again I don't think the discussion really come to life. The particularly cruel "cat and mouse" policy brought publicity and affected public sentiment in favour of the prisoners, who were getting a very mixed press at the time. The adoption of force feeding made the victims into martrys.The introduction to the programme makes it clear that it is about suffragists or suffragettes, yet the title is suffragism. The introduction suggests that the nature of the opposition to the movement will be explored. I do not think it was.Not one of the best programmes in this wonderful series Melvyn, but thank you all the same.

Judith Kazantzis: Suffragism
I enjoyed this brief retelling very much but have several comments: why no welknown feminist historians such as Sheila Rowbotham to give us more insight into the feeling among the women as well as a broader context? Am I right to think the panellists seemed a little unenthused with this complex and revolutionary movement, which hooks onto so many contemporary living issues. My problem is mainly with lack of context: it actually seemed slightly dated to restrict your subject to Votes for Women - inevitably you then had to make various efforts as you went along to bring in the broader context. Better to have had two programmes running, one to set the general movement towards the emanicipation of women, (going back to the Levellers and all sorts of minority movements) the second to focus on the Vote. Certainly, no programme on the women's vote here should miss out the Married Women's Property Act of late Victorian England, nor the beginning of women's entrance into the professions and the trade unions, and the formation of the important women's institutions like the Women's Guild, or the part they played in the early Co-op movement and for the matter the Labour Party. You would not have had to push to bring in class so late in the programme if you had set all this up beforehand. Yet as far I heard - did I miss these references? surely not - there was little mentioned beyond Barbara Boudichon's committee(Where for example was JS Mill and the first women's bill in the 1860s to bring in the vote?) Later on you mentioned the slow arrival of degrees for women, but why no mention of Emily Davies' work to get women into Oxbridge. No mention of Sophia Jex Blake, no Elizabeth Garret Anderson for the medical professions. To come back to the vote: there was a real argument between the WSPU and Millicent Fawcett's Suffragists: a classic argument over strategy, which causes and causes disagreement. Last point, re 1914-18, Emily and surelyChristabel too had come out as jingoists; were handing out white feathers to reluctant fighters and had declared a moratorium on suffragette campaigning, whereas the great Sylvia Pankhust, a pacifist and a socialist, was campaign ing against the war. Pity you didn't mention her work. Lastly what got the vote in the end?: the women or the war? You offer the then government's argument, that they could hardly enfranchise the soldiers without the women who had done such valiant war work. This implied that the pre-war and indeed fifty years of women's work for the vote had no part in the decision. This saved the government's face, but the truth was, I believe, that everything contributed. I'm not sure your panellists brought these issues out clearly. I do hope quite soon you will take a broader look at all the issues of the nineteenth/early twentieth women's emancipation movement, at least in the UK, better to touch on the movement in the US, and other countries too if possible, for all these are part of one historical movement.

Women's Suffrage
It is a pity that the history of the women's suffrage movement and for some the titillating aspects of cruelty towards women during the campaign,has made it so appealing to the media, given the as yet unproven worth of the women's vote.There were many more courageous women campaigners, long before the suffrage movement, who are almost entirely unknown. They were foremost in the anti-slavery movement and campaigned for women's rights and other progressive causes - against racism, sexism, anti-Semitism and the 'slavery' and patriarchy of the political conservativism of the traditional status status quo. They were the women who were abused and pilloried because they were women freethinkers, who recognised the origins of patriarchy in religion, in their day, Christianity.They wrote and spoke at huge meetings, despite being called harlots and she-devils, and much of their work was censored and suppressed by the power and influence of the church and its clerics.Annie Gaylor,president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation in the US has written a book featuring 50 such British and American women, from Mary Woolstonecraft, George Elliot, Hypacia Bradlaugh Bonner, Barbara Smoker and Taslima Nasrin, to Anne Royall, Francis Wright, Lydia Maria Child, Emma Martin, Susan Anthony - 50 in all, as well as notes of many others incuding Florence Nightingale.This is a bigger and more influential group of women that are still not recognised for the advances they achieved dispite their considerable social handicaps. It would be nice to see them celebrated instead of so many of the second rate men who have been awarded historical importance.This would be fitting for IOT, a programme for which I have the utmost praise and Melvin Bragg who does a superb job in bringing such depth of historical knowledge the British public, that have been so starved of honest academic appraisal.see www.wws-gb.freeuk.com"Women Without Superstition, No Gods No Masters"Sue MayerLondon Feminist Freethinkers

Dr Judith Rowbotham, Suffragism
I listened with great enjoyment to today's speakers, whom I regard highly - but I want to make two points! First I think they underplayed Barbara Bodichon's importance and the importance of the property issue generally: Bodichon and her 1854 text on women's legal disabilities played a crucial role in convincing a male parliament of the need to address this issue, culminating in the Married Women's Property Act 1882. And property is also crucial in understanding what went on. What was so radical in the 1918 Act was its virtual abandonment of the property qualification for male voters, which Lloyd George had identified in 1913 as a crucial factor (there was an ongoing campaign for universal male suffrage at the same time as the women's movement) if women were to be enfranchised. Women, witness the early giving of the vote to women in places like New Zealand, were seen as a naturally conservative force within society, so enfranchising women over 30 balanced out the radicalism of the new male voters. Also after 1918, women still suffered from disabilities (especially economic ones), as Virginia Woolf stressed in A Room of One's Own, 1929.

Linda Delgaty/Suffragettes
Enjoyed the programme on women's suffrage, but was disappointed that Sylvia Pankhurst was not mentioned. She is sadly overlooked. She formed the East London Federation of The Suffragettes and did some marvellous work. There is a good book called 'In Letters of Gold' about her life and work. The author is Rosemary Taylor. Published by Stepney Books 19 Tomlins Grove London E3 4NX/ISBN 0 950 5241 82. Thanks for an enjoyable programme. Regards. Linda Delgaty.

Tom Whitehouse Suffragism
I am amazed that you can spend 45 minutes on the Suffrage movement without discussing Sylvia Pankhurst, the East London Federation of Suffragettes, where it came from and what is led to.Also, a programme called In Our Time should have at least noted the parallels between the vilification and police atrocities in reaction to the direct action aspects of the suffragettes, and the continuing reactions of the state to radical challenge which have culminated in the controversy over police actions in the G20 protests

Mary Metcalfe. In Our Time
In the interesting programme on the impact of the Sufferagism one of the ladies taking part in the programme stated that conscription was introduced when war broke out in 1914. Conscription was not introduced until 1916. It was brought about because of the horrific numbers deaths being suffered by what was still a army of volunteers.Mary Metcalfe

John: Brave New World
Huxley showed his true disposition byhis friendship with DHL(when the Bloomsbury set had rejected him).DHL was interested in artists'colonies andwas himself in search of new worlds andthe mechanization of America and cars he loathed. Huxley also wrote his owngreat search into spirituality in 1946The Perenial Philosophy,which was aboutbelief,prayer,spirituality and the search for the Godhead.In BNW you havethe industralization of reproductionand the planned State where pleasuretakes the place of coercion and the figure of John the savage is a hybridof himself and DHL-and he hangs himself!QED.

Brave New World
On the modern relevance of BNW, Neil Postman's 'Amusing ourselves to death' is well worth investigating. In the preface he sums up his argument by stating that Orwell got the future wrong, Huxley got it right.

Nick Inman Brave New World
I'm surprised no one on the programme mentioned Neil Postman's Amusing Ourselves to Death which argues that Huxley (in Brave New World) was right about the future –which is now our present – and Orwell (1984) wrong. You don't need a totalitarian police state to control people's thoughts; you just need to keep them amused and infantilised with the banalities of television and, by extension, the internet.

Richard Strauss, Brave New World
I was interested to hear that Brave New World is as much a Utopia as it is a Dystopia.Rereading More's Utopia it occurred to me that, at least according to a modern understanding More's work, More's Utopia isn't a place where many would like to live; I doubt it was a place More would have liked to live, either. There is a lot that is satirical, and indeed quite nasty in Utopia.Did More really mean Utopia to be a model state? I think that for More it may have been an ideal place in the platonic sense, but it was never intended to be an ‘idyll’.‘Utopia’, then is as much a dystopia as it is a utopia. The opposition of ‘dystopia’ to ‘utopia’ might be based on a 19th century misreading of utopia as a ‘perfect place’ and not ‘no place’ as More’s rather playful Greek would have it. If that is the case, it is a misreading that is still current.Perhaps I’m just a pedant. Still, I would enjoy hearing More’s Utopia discussed on In Our Time.

Luke Chandler
BNW is most definitely Dystopian not Utopian as the guests put forward. As to really enjoy life and know its worth we must go struggle was what Huxley was saying. A world of instant gratification and consumerism without want and longing, yet stable interspersed with chemical hoildays is hell, and that is how many people live today and do not know they are even alive and will not until it is to late. Go to your town centre and look around you, many gammas and epsilons consuming rubbish and watching moronic feelies. The brave new world is here. Yet I like to think there is a Delta out there whilst on a break from their hoovering is reading the complete works of Shakespeare and is totally engrossed in it, untouched by Hypnopaedia, intellectual freedom intact and truly alive!

Violet-Huxley-Brave New World
The background to why Huxley formulated the structure of the novel was explained quite well.e.g.industrialization, time and motion and the Ford ideology,the advancement of science etc.Visionary perhaps, but the book was written in 1931, many aspects can be projected forward. It was to be noted that Huxley taught Orwell for aleast a term.The title is of course ironic.

SUSAN GREENWOOD - BRAVE NEW WORLD
An interesting discussion, prompting a re-read. I have always thought of Huxley's 'novels' as essays - especially this one which seems to me to about the very thorny subject of the role of suffering in human life. Huxley's exposition is brilliantly open ended and still thought provoking.

Steven Doby - Posiible subject for discussion
Just seen a documentary about the "Devils Bible" Codex Gigas. Could be an interesting subject for discussion.

michele roohani brave new world
i have to re-read BNW after this programme; i read it thirty years ago and it seems it's more relevant now than ever...i particularly liked david bradshaw's analysis.

Colin Lester, Brave New World
Re. Huxley's relationship with DH Lawrence, there's an interesting item from (if I remember aright from 45 years ago) the Memorial Volume edited by Julian Huxley (pub. Chatto & Windus 1965) where Martha Huxley, typing the mss. of Lady Chatterley, is said to have been asked by DHL not to use 'those 4-letter words' in Huxley's presence 'because it would shock him': an interesting view of a man who reportedly shocked some friends by talking loudly in a restaurant about the sex life of octopuses. There's also an interesting contribution from Pound who, when asked by Huxley about the value of his poetry, was 'able to advise him to confine himself to essays, of which he made himself the master' (I paraphrase throughout this note). It's in many ways a volume fascinatingly insightful (of contributors as well as Huxley & others), not least for being produced because Huxley's death was deemed to have been overlooked as it occurred on the same day as JFK's assasssination.

Helen Willis- Buddhism and Brave New World
It's been over 40 years since I read "Brave New World." It was an important book for me as a teen and lead to me reading much more stuff by Huxley as I aged. I think I thought as a teen that the things that Marx and the women saw at the savage village that upset the girl were copied after the things Gautama saw that made him search after spiritual truth. Weren't Buddha's disease, age, death, and an ascetic? I thought that Marx's shielded life was being paralleled with Prince Gautama, but then Marx doesn't find enlightenment at the end of his quest, just exile.

Brave New World
The question isn’t only if the world is brave, but also if it is new. What about Nietzsche’s philosophical concept of ‘Eternal return’, and some systems of thought such as Buddhism,which are attributed, wrongly, to belong exclusively to eastern philosophical and religious tradition? It seams that believe that it isn’t new, works as a driving force of that story.The story itself is title oriented. It is constructed around the title, so any speculations about possible literary influences, though not entirely unjustified, are of lesser importance for understanding its origins. And a battery supplies the power to any device, the title is a “driving” or inspirational force but also partly disconnected from the meaning of the story. The quotation from Shakespeare sounds as the greatest curse ever spoken. But who can be angry with fellow human beans permanently? They are selling old stories as new onesand have tendency of forgetting their meaning but, they also don’t always know what they are doing. In order to show that there have been people prior me to with similar views I have call upon Nietzsche and others, but it wouldn’t be right to play that game strictly. The case isn’t that the world’s story is repeated in its totality but only the best parts.

Angela Howe, In Our Time series
Thank you for the most stimulating and enjoyable programme on Radio4. Happy Easter.

Brave New World - The Tempest
I have just re-read the Tempest, in the amazing new RSC Shakespeare edition, and was blown away (again). Given Melvyn's intimate association with this great work, why don't you have a programme devoted to it? Bate's amazing RSC version of the play has just come out, extracted and enhanced from the RSC complete, so it would be a topical topic. Bate and Bragg on Shakespeare's Tempest. Now there's a brave new programme...

Claudia Funder - Happy Easter
THanks all at IOT for a wonderful programme. I love the podcast and the newsletter. Yes, I too realised I need to go back and re-read Brave New World. I especially like Melvyn's writings on walking through London after the show. See you in Hyde Park sometime. Best of Easter wishes to the full team. Claudia FunderMelbourne

Dennis Chang -- IOT
All good -- just back from two weeks away, and it's been great to catch up with the last couple of programs. (Though I thought Baconian Science a bit more interesting than Huxley: perhaps a case for not having an entire program on a single novel?) Still, I've gotta take issue with Melvyn and with Will below: Rhodri Lewis wasn't being a pedant when he insisted that Bacon didn't say knowledge is power, for the excellent reason that Bacon never did get around to saying anything of the sort. It'd be boring to go into this now, but here's a link to a useful further discussion:https://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=7115Bacon thought that certain kinds of knowledge did confer power on their possessors, but the phrase as it's attributed to him is a simple error. He was talking about the relative merits of *God's* knowledge and power, not ours, much less about any equivalency between knowledge and *political* power. This ain't rocket science and I really don't know what Melvyn and Will find so hard to swallow. (For the record, and despite Will's suggestion below, the actual Latin of the Meditationes sacrae reads, in a parenthesis on divine foreknowledge, "quam et ipsa scientia potestas est", the vagaries of which I'll leave to those of you who've studied Latin.) Otherwise, keep up the good work, Cheers, Dennis

Marjory Brave New World
I enjoyed the discussion. Like many, I read BNW in my late teens and really enjoyed it. Re-reading a few years ago, I was quite disappointed. It has some interesting ideas in it, but is full of long turgid descriptions about what life is like. It fails to work as a *novel*.

BRAVE NEW WORLD
I was surprised that at least some of the experts thought that Huxley was broadly sympathetic to the regime portrayed in BNW. In his preface to Brave New World Revisited he says that although he had set BMW in the 26th century, he now tought that "the horror may be upon us in a single century" The abiding impression I took from the novel, which I read years ago admittedly, was of a world spiritually and morally dead, with the population dehumanised and rigidly controlled. I find it hard to believe that Huxley with his great interest in the spiritual, which manifested itself more openly in his later work would have welcomed the world he describes. Was his novel not a warning of what would happen if the trends he identified went unchecked?And does he not adopt the same technique as Orwell in 1984 in using the future as a backdrop to highlight his concerns about the present, except that BNW is more satirical? A point not fully developed in the programme was prominence given to Freud. It is not entirely clear whether the year in which the novel is set, AF 632 is the year 632 of Our Freud or of Our Ford, and indeed by AF632 the names seem almost have merged into one. Stephen Gore

Brave New World
The forerunner of both Brave New World and 1984 is Zamyatin’s We. Zamyatin himself had lived and worked in England and derived his inspiration from HG Wells’s novels of dystopian social fantasy, a form he used to reveal the defects of the existing social structure and not to construct some paradise of the future. Writing in 1930, Huxley undoubtedly owed to Zamyatin the basic concept of a critique of the future based on an extrapolation of certain present trends. Huxley also shared Zamyatin’sconcern about man’s enslavement to the demands of a society whose rationale isthat of technology-in Zamyatin’s case his future world is an almost successful attempt to subordinate man to the laws of mathematics and engineering, while Huxley sees the chief danger to humanity in a surrender to the logic of thebiological and genetic sciences. What is absent in Huxley, however, is a sense of the power of ideology: BNW is apolitical, whereas for Zamyatin writing in Petrograd,ideology+terror was the main threat; he predicted Stalinism. Orwell shared this revulsion from the tyranny of ideology, saw Stalinism realized before his eyes and,projecting it slightly forward in time, predicted its evolution in terms that made itappallingly clear to even the insular and politically complacent British. Both BNW and We deal with the rebellion of the primitive human spirit against a rationalized,mechanised, painless world, and both stories are supposed to take place about 600 years hence. Happiness and freedom , love and sex are all incompatible. Ties like motherhood, fatherhood and the family have been abolished. Stability is the chiefgoal. The problem of ‘human nature’ is solved by prenatal treatment, drugs andhypnotic suggestion and society is highly stratified. Huxley in BNW shows proto-fascist tendencies:high culture for the few, elitist rule, a denigration of mass communication(press, cinema, democracy) and mass happiness is inferior. Orwelltook his inspiration from We more than BNW because the latter shows a life that is stratified for no reason,there is no economic aim nor power hunger nor strong motive for those at the top, and life has become pointless and would not endure. As Zamyatin shows in We, imagination is the disease in a totalitarian state. There is aneed for human sacrifice and the worship of a leader with divine-like attributes. All you get in BNW are electric shocks, pneumatic bliss and pleasure, ho hum. People aresocially controlled by being brain-washed into well-being, having their wants curtailed. Our present awareness of the twin threats to civilized humanity-science and ideology as ends in themselves- has been aroused more by the power of Huxley andOrwell than the work of politicians. It was Zamyatin that grasped the potential in the literary technique(Dystopian tradition) of an English writer of one generation, gave it a new dimension and handed it on to two masters of the next generation.

Michael Moore, Brave New World
I first read Brave New World many years ago. I agree with the view that it is an odd novel, I always put this down to Huxley's almost vicious insight and his pessimistic expression of the nightmare society that he could see as a potential and partly realised result of the modern industrial age. It has remained a 'relevant' novel in that it speaks to the underlying anxiety created by the thought of spiritual values and aspirations denied, thwarted and suppressed by a totalitarian state. The obsessive secularism we experience in our society today is enough to ensure the survival of this work as a satirical polemic against state control. Thank you for - as always - a very enjoyable program.

jane Aldous Huxley - Brave New World
Mmm...a visionary with no answers but plenty of directed talent. The intimations of truth are etched deeply in the chaotic miasma we wade through generation after generation but paradoxically, in such a context, evoke endless distortions of themselves. The 'phoenix from the ashes' will always be central to our story....and one day, we humans will perhaps understand, scientifically...or not, the real nature and function of life and especially of love. It's staring us in the face but we've developed collective cataracts. The head cannot be severed from the heart....we're all struggling with this paradigm whether we're consciously aware of it or not. Interesting if distressing programme - thanks enormously. (sorry, just couldn't bite my tongue on this one!) Best wishes to all.

LDW - Brave New World
Generally, I'm a big fan of IOT. But today's discussion struck me as below par. There was too much synopsis: if we've read it we KNOW what the story is and don't need reminding. There was a lot of very shallow talk about 'dystopia' - a word which appears in the description of the programme.To me, BNW is NOT dystopian. As was finally conceded in the last two minutes, it is simultaneously utopian and dystopian: the whole merit of the book is that Huxley does not make value judgments (at least overtly) about which aspects of his possible future are beneficial to man.The people ARE happy, sickness HAS been eliminated, children do NOT have birth trauma or parental neglect. These things are things we would all wish for. The question Huxley poses is, 'what is the price of this perfect world, and is it worth paying?'I heard the sound of some academics who were just a bit too pleased to be on the radio. Or was I just in a bad mood?

Shujaat Hussain Islamabad Pakistan
Hi, Thanks for such great program on BNW and Aldous Huxley!!

paul kelly "Brave new world"
you say that "Brave new world" is the only Shakespeare words to be made famous by someone else.what about "ill met by moonlight" by W.Stanley Moss?

greg wade 'Oxygen'
Dear Melvin & CoI have just read a very interesting article in The Independent about Oxygen. There has been some new research to show why oxygen formed in earth's early atmosphere.Without oxygen there would be no life on earth or physical erosion on the surface. I think this would make an excellent subject fo IYT.RegardsGreggreg

IOT
After listening each week for almost a year to this elegantly prepared and presented programme, I want to share this quotation from WH Auden's 'The Age of Anxiety'. This is because I have become growingly frustrated by how deeply entrenched things seem to be and how intricately enmeshed the human mind becomes with its creations and 'collusions'. Auden assembled these words into a point at which eloquence transforms into profound truth and they embody so accurately what appears to me, in our present age, to be a 'stultifying hurdle': 'We would rather be ruined than changed; We would rather die in our dread Than climb the cross of the moment And let our illusions die.'. Brilliant writing. Really enjoyed Melvyn's newsletter..... 'Knowledge is power' is pretty obvious even to (especially to!) a three year old. It's how each generation acts on this universal truism that's surely the important bit. Many, many thanks.

Ben Thomas - Baconian Science
As usual, a great programme. One of the best things about IOT is Melvyn's persona: he doesn't generally let the academic "experts" fudge and waffle as they sometimes like to, and tries to nail down their meaning in clear terms. Not all contributors are very good at this, so -- as Robin Jackman says earlier in this thread -- Rhodri Lewis's elegant corrections to some of the received ideas about Bacon were particularly welcome. With this in mind, I have to say that I'm puzzled by Melvyn's newsletter, in which he takes issue with Lewis's statement that Bacon never said "knowledge is power" in those words, but that he probably agreed with the sentiment. Melvyn makes it sound like Lewis is being a fudger, but he was simply being accurate on an important point. I can't read Latin, but I've now looked up translations of the phrase in question (in the essay "On Heresy" in the 1597 Religious Meditations), and when looked at in context it clearly refers to knowledge as being one of the powers of God's mind. COMPLETELY different to "knowledge is power" as used by Polar explorers, Foucault and whoever. It's great that Melvyn continues to try to "nail down" the contributors' wafflings and make them talk to us in a language we can understand. Still, and although everyone is entitled to a bad day (even Melvyn nods!), he's made himself look lazy and willfully argumentative in this case. I'm looking forward to a speedy return to form next week...

Will -- Bacon
I was astonished by the pedantry of Rhodri Lewis in claiming that Bacon never said "knowledge is power". When pressed, he conceded that Bacon said many things like it and would have agreed with the sentiment. He mentioned the Meditations of 1597 then passed on. In those Meditationes Sacrae, Bacon uses the phrase, "scientia potentia est". This is typically translated, or perhaps better paraphrased as, "knowledge is power", though literally it means, "knowledge (itself) is power". The distinction is not worth the mention and managed only to distract the discussion pointlessly.

Bryn Jones
I missed your programme but I hope that you mentioned that Bacon invented binary (after the Chinese and Indians centuries earlier). He encoded alphabetic characters in binary (as our computers do), for encryption purposes.

Judith Rowely Bacon with the rind on
Great meandering letter this week..really got a flavour of the man (or perhaps the gathering?) coming through. Keep piling it on, thanks for the drollery,

Patrick Mulvey Bacon and Induction
Another good programme, but Bacon did not "invent" induction see: Aristotle, Prior Analytics, ed. McKeon 1941, New York: Randomhouse, p. 102. Actually nobody did, induction as an aspect of logic, eternally preexisted mankind.

Quicksilver - - Thank you
I just wanted to express my gratitude to Melvyn Bragg for 'In Our Time' - one of the very few islands of intelligent discussion still remaining in the BBC ocean. Receiving the Newsletter each week is a delight, also.

Dr Michael Eldred - Baconian Science 02/04/09
As usual a fine program with knowledgeable guests, but this time marred by the repeated, silly assertion that Baconian empiricism “overthrew Aristotle”. If anything was overthrown, it was medieval scholasticism’s appropriation of Aristotle, a strain of Aristoteleanism. Without Aristotle, Britain would never have had its Newton, nor its Maxwell. Why? Because there would be no modern physics at all without that concept at the vital, throbbing heart of Aristotle’s thinking named by a neologism he coined himself: energeia (literally: at-work-ness). Today in our scientific arrogance we think we know what energy is, but in truth we have only managed to obfuscate the phenomenon by stripping it down to the status of a variable in an equation of motion.

James B -- Baconianism
Be fair, R.J. Holmes ... not all of the panellists were into the Bacon as torturer of nature thing, and Pumfrey _was_ corrected ... though it would have been better Lewis had been allowed to make more of his counter-claim that Bacon said no such thing. As for nature and experiement, what about the myth of Proteus? A slighly longer and more complicated allegory of masculine nature being wrestled with by the scientist to give up its truth. isn't this (for Anon) also what's going with the airpump? Making nature do what is doesn't do naturally? As for symbolism, I reckon that the pyramid is a metaphor for the hidden hermetic learning of the Rosy-cross or holy grail or King Lear or whatever.

Mark Hessey Baconian Method and Homeopathy
Thank you for an excellent discussion this week. Samuel Hahnemann in the 1790's rigorously applied Bacon's method of inquiry into the nature of health and disease and first published his "Organon of the Rational Art of Healing in 1810. It was by his close observation of the effects of Cinchona (Peruvian Bark) on his own health that he was able, through observation and induction,to say " Peruvian Bark, which is used as a remedy for intermittent fever acts because it can produce symptoms similar to those of intermittent fever in healthy people." (S.Hahnemann,Lesser Writings ) This principle, after further experimentation, became known as "Similia Similibus Curentur " - The Law Of Similars, and The Rational Healing Art he came to name from the greek "Homoios-pathos", Homeopathy meaning similar suffering.Im my opinion , the early C19th development of Homeopathy as a rational science of medcine is the most successful long standing example of the application of Francis Bacon's scientific method of the meticulous observation of nature - the study of the patient; the collection of facts; the writing down of symptoms in great detail; the analysis of those facts; the categorising of symptoms into generals, and particulars, the comparison of those symptoms with the facts of the materia medica using an index known as the Repertory ; and the subsequent induction; the prescription.So when a homeopath sits down to observe and investigate a patient and their symptoms , he or she is using Baconian methods of induction.Hahnemann used Bacon's methods to investigate the curative action of plants and then minerals in what he termed the provings - long lists of symptoms observed in patients taking these in increasingly smaller doses. By the study of the collective expression of disease in humanity in contemporary times and in history he derived his broader theory of disease known as The theory of Miasms. He asked of his colleagues that they become unprejudiced observers. He reserves his greatest invective for those physicians of his day who construct "empty speculations and hypotheses concerning the internal essential nature" of the body based as they are on "mere theoretical webs" Surely this is the language of Bacon. As Hahneman himself said "by observation, reflection and experience, I discovered... that.. to cure mildly, rapidly, certainly and permanently choose, in every case of disease, a medicine which can itself produce an affection similar to that sought to be cured. "I ask Pumfrey to reconsider there view and to look at Homoeopathy as a lasting and successful example of Inductive logical reasoning , of Baconian method.I reccomend The Organon of Medicine sixth edition By S.Hahnemann as a powerful defence of Bacon's Methodology in the field of Medicine.

Baconian science
ps - bear in mind that our genes are now being 'monopolized'.....

Baconian Science
Well they got the red herrings out the way: that as the Lord Chancellor he took bribes(apparently it was the custom),that he was the alternative as the author of Shakespeare(rubbish). We found out the whole basis of his philosophy was practical: to give mankind mastery over the forces of nature by means of scientificdiscoveries and inventions. He held that philosophy should be kept separatefrom theology, not intimately blended with it as in scholasticism. Philosophyshould depend only on reason. He has permanent importance as the founder of modern inductive method and the attempt at logical systematization ofscientific procedure. He emphasised the importance of induction as opposed to deduction. He wanted to go beyond ‘induction by simple enumeration’ to a process of listin as in his method of discovering the nature of heat, making lists of hotbodies ,cold bodies and bodies of varying degrees of heat. He hoped that these lists would show some characteristic always present in hot bodies and absent in cold bodies, and present in varying degrees in bodies of different degrees of heat. By thismethod he hoped to arrive at general laws. A suggested law should be tested by being applied in new circumstances; if it worked then it was confirmed. This method can help us decide between two theories. Bacon despised the syllogism but also undervalued mathematics as insufficiently experimental. Hostile to Aristotle, thinking highly of Democritus. He did not deny that the course of nature exemplifies a divine purpose but he objected to teleological explanation in the actual investigation ofphenomena; everything should be explained as following necessarily from efficient causes. He wanted to arrange the observational data upon which science must be based. He saw the scientist as a bee that collected and arranged rather than a collector ant or a spider spinning out his own insides. However,Bacon missed most of what was being done in the science of his day, Copernicus, Kepler, Vesalius and Harvey, who said he” writes like a Lord Chancellor”. Bacon’s inductive method isfaulty through insufficient emphasis on hypothesis. He hoped that merely orderly arrangement of data would make the right hypothesis obvious, but this is not obvious. The framing of hypotheses is the most difficult part of scientific work. Usually somehypothesis is a necessary preliminary to the collection of facts, since the selection of facts demands some way of determining relevance. The part played by deduction is greater than Bacon supposed. Often, when a hypothesis has to be tested, there is a long deductive journey from the hypothesis to some consequence that can be testedby observation. Usually the deduction is mathematical which we know he underestimated. Bacon had underrated the importance of hypothesis and theory and overrated the reliability of the senses. Karl Popper said “ The most important functionof observation and reasoning, and even of intuition and imagination, is to help us in the critical examination of those bold conjectures which are the means by which we probe into the unknown”.

R.J.Holmes - Baconian Science
Pumfrey's repeated claim that Bacon wanted to grab "nature" by the forelock should, along with the erroneous comments about 'torture' and witches, also be corrected. Bacon, (perhaps sensitive to his own lack of fortune after his father's early death), often made reference to the need to "seize Opportunity (Fortuna) by the forelock, in a direct line from Kairos through to the Black Panther's "Seize the time". Shakespeare similarly refers to "Time that bald sexton." (It is not immediately clear how this is "gendered".) It would also have been important to distinguish between B's preference for "light-bringing" (roughly equivalent to 'basic' research) against "fruit-bringing" ('profitable' or applied research). No mention was made that Bacon attempted to explain his approach to a broader readership through the stories in the "Wisdom of the Ancients", and his attitude to nature and experiment is most apparent there in the (very short) Myth of Ericthonius.

Paulpic - out of the frying pan and into the fire
Can Baconian methods of induction be used to reach conclusions that are predetermined by the make up of our human psychology? For example, will we ever reach the comforting thought of an actually (ne potentially)infinite universe that contains no nothingness by finding ever finer infinitesimals and larger exponentials?

Jon - Baconian Science
For a modern example of Baconian Science, where there is hope of gaining understanding from exhaustive data collection and induction rather than hypothesis-driven observation, consider the human genome projects. We now look to sequence a thousand more human genomes and who knows what we will find?

Joanna Weddell: School of Athens
For those who wanted more art history information on the School of Athens, try the Web Gallery of Art: www.wga.hu, enter the site, go to the bottom of the page and click R for a list of artists, select Raffaello Sanzio, and then Stanze della Segnatura. Good quality images, a biography and visual analysis. No adverts/popups.

Anon Baconian Science
“To understand is to have understood”To say that the ‘Air Pump’ changed Nature is absurd. To say that the ‘Air Pump’ provided us with another view, angle or perspective of Nature is another question. Nevertheless, another valuable I.O,T program.However, it is quite clear that none have understood what Bacon was attempting to express (language limitations). The key as it were, is in the symbolism. The pyramids, as we see them are the architects representation of the symbol an image. As Aristotle stated “We cannot ... prove geometrical truths by arithmetic”.

Peter Jones: Francis Bacon
Whilst I appreciate that the remit of this programme was a discussion of the relationship between Bacon and Science, I was surprised that there was no mention of the connection between Bacon and the early Rosicrucians, who themselves were very much involved with scientific thought.Also, I cannot let the remark by Professor Stephen Pumfrey concerning "crazy conspiratory theorists" who believe that Bacon was "the writing pen behind Shakespeare" was "obviously nonsense", go unchallenged.A follow-up programme perhaps ?

Robin Jackman -- Baconian Science
Fabulous programme; quite the best thing available on the internet! I particularly enjoyed Rhodri Lewis's attempts to drag us back to what Bacon himself wrote, and to the slightly tense relationship between science and religion in and after the renaissance. (For me, there was some unintentional humour when Patricia Fara remarked that there was still scholarly debate over what Bacon said ... to which I might add that this may very well be the case, but only amongst those who haven't read him very closely.) The phenomenon of Baconianism is fascinating, but surely we have to look at his own writings in as much detail as possible? I'd also loved to have heard some more on the millenarian types clustered around Hartlieb (sp?) who took Bacon's project forward in the years before the Royal Society was founded -- Lewis and Stephen Pumfrey sounded like they had lots more to say. And for the record, the ship sailing beyond the pillars of Hercules on the frontispiece of the Novum organum is not a galleon (as one of the contributors, I forget which, suggested), but a much more powerfully symbolic Man of War. Still, and such grumbles aside, this was a fabulous way to start a Thursday ... Bacon was such an interesting man. Keep them coming!

Redvers - Francis Bacon but no Rodger
As always, an interesting discussion but what a shame You couldn't find a minute or so to mention Roger bacon who was born about 350 years earlier, joined a Franciscan order wrote about the primacy of observation over dogma and suffered for it. Ignoring such lesser characters but more valid pioneers makes Francis seem god-like and gives him credit for battles that were first engaged centuries before his time.

Possibly of interest. in this 'Darwin year'.
I have just watched a programme on BBC player in which Conor Cunningham, a philosopher and theologian, addresses the issue 'Did Darwin Kill God?. I personally think that it's well worth watching.

Anjuli Pandavar - School of Athens
Like others, I too, was hoping for an art historian on the panel. The discussion was a treat, even though I did not agree with everything that was said. As it is such a major work of art, I was hoping to learn more about how Raphael's skills as an artist were brought to bear to make his philosophical-theological points. I was hoping for some comment on the use of colour as I see, for example, the depiction of Aristotle and Plato in robes of complementary colours as establishing the simultaneous opposition and unity of materialism and idealism. But I'm sure many listeners had their own little questions that they were hoping to hear answered.I discussed IOT with a friend the other day and we agreed that it harks back to a time when thought was valued and when being educated was something to aspire to and be proud of. How poor money has made us!

Dr Angie Hobbs The School of Athens
Nicholas Adams is quite right that Bramante's plans for the rebuilding of St Peter's Basilica form one of the many probable reference points in Raphael's rich and multi-layered work. I had certainly intended to mention this, as it's clearly important, but one doesn't think of everything in the heat of a live discussion! However, the basic point of the Ancient Roman influences remains the same, as Bramante was quite deliberately looking (in part) to the buidings of Ancient Rome in his work (whether he perceived these as specifically 'Roman' or more generally 'antique' is a moot point). So it still seems clear to me that Raphael's work contains echoes of the Pantheon (as it would appear did Bramante's plans)and, I would suggest, the Baths of Diocletian as well. And the programme did go on to discuss at some length the ways in which some figures (not all) in the Renaissance sought to harmonize ancient philosophy with Christianity.With regard to another issue raised, I should certainly enjoy listening to a programme which concentrated on the 'School of Athens' from the perspective of art historians. But in this instance a decision was made to concentrate on the philosophical significance of the fresco. With works of art as great and influential as this, there are always a number of approaches one can take.

School of Athens
I thought that one of the reasons this was an exceptionally successful topic was that the use of a picture as the centre of interest brought a sense of completeness and balance which counteracted the historical dynamic of change.M. Pickering

Ole Bjorsvik, Lay out
In the end I came (by accident?)to one of your old archive sides. Try to protect these. The new layout is beyond horrible. It's the worst I've seen in layout for allmost ten years. (Half of Frontier's programmes is just simply lost, the other is difficult to find.)

The School of Athens
I have just read about the favourable comments on this programme. The fundamental reason, it seems to me, why this particular programme was so successful was that, in the management of information, the historical temporal dynamic was offset by the spatial framing supplied by the picture.Michael Pickering

School of Athens
Dear IOTHad to stop listening when the first interviewee could not identify the building in the School of Athens as Raphael's reconstruction of Bramante's designs for new St. Peter's. That's the point: the philosophers are gathered in Julius' projected building designed by the architect whom all agreed had done more to revive antiquity than anyone else. Nicholas Adams

Gareth Thomas - School of Athens
A remarkable programme: truly visual radio! The excellent photograph of the fresco provided a focus throughout the discussion (and it is now my computer desktop picture). As I am studying philosophy and theology in an English seminary in Rome this added an extra dimension to my understanding of the history of philosophy, as well as providing some good insights and background notes for the study of 'Fides et Ratio'. A suggestion for a future programme would be to study the fresco on the opposite wall; which reminds me, you said you would do a programme on Thomas Aquinas. That was a couple of years back, so is the programme still in the pipeline?

David Board - In Our Time
I came to subects like philosophy only late in life having suffered a rather sad and desultory education in Northampton during the 1950's and early 1960's. For me this series of programmes has been a wonderful experience and I feel sure that there are many people like myself who find, (and many more who would find), them both a satisfying and nourishing experience indeed! From the bottom of uneducated my heart - Thank you Melvyn Bragg and thank you The BBC. DB

Philosophy
So interesting you're doing Bacon next. Your contributors' potted history of classical philosophy since the Renaissance missed out the enormous impact of skepticism, revived 1560s, championed by Montaigne and influential of Bacon (and Shakespeare).

School of Athens
The architectural surround to the philosophers I always thought was in homage to the design for the new St Peter's, in the process of being built at the time. The architect, Bramante (Raphael's uncle) worked in the Roman style revived by Brunelleschi at the beginning of the C15.

arto keshishian--general
melvyn,it's all very well quoting the ancients-Socrates,Plato,Aristotle,Homer,Phythagoras,Herodotus,Isocrates,Strabo etc but why don't you do a programme on where they all got it from! Egypt and more correctly the Cushites and Ethiopians.

The School of Athens
Really enjoyed being elevated above the 'everyday' for a while and am about to google in order to find out more. Bless you... and thanks as always - Jane.

John, The School of Athens
Enjoyed this sumptuous banquet of discussion on the High Renaissance of Raphael’s School of Athens. I felt an art historian should have been included to cover the art offresco painting as similarly practised by Leonardo(e.g. Last Supper) and Michelangelo who was painting the Sistine ceiling (cf. The Creation). Indeed Bramante, the Vatican architect who introduced the young Raphael to Julius, also allowed Raphael to see Michelangelo’s Sistine ceiling while the latter was away. I felt we all got a bit lost on that old cherry, Plato vs. Aristotle. We did get to hear about the Romanizing of Greek space,the depiction of Roman architecture as opposed to Greek, echoing the grandest buildings in Rome, the vaults, the arches and statues. The fresco is looking back at the greatest minds of the classical world especially in Greece. At the centre are the two central figures in Western Philosophy, Plato andAristotle, reflecting the two sides of western thinking. Plato the idealist is on the left pointing upwards to divine inspiration. Beyond him to the left are the philosophers whoappealed to intuition and the emotions. They are nearer to the figure of Apollo- and they lead on the wall of the Parnassus. To the right is Aristotle, the man of good sense, holding out a moderating hand; and beyond him are the representatives of rational activities-science,logic logic and geometry. Below is a group centred on Euclid.In a medieval world ridden by plague and wars and lacking basic medical knowledge Raphae depicted the utopian ideals of a perfect city and life-open streets and airy,civic squares in a lofty Olympian architecture. Maybe a ‘rhetorical fantasy’ but Raphael went on to be an architect. The figures are all posed as in Hellenisticsculpture apart from the morose Heraclitus(modelled on Michelangelo).Raphael is a harmonising classicist, bringing into one whole the worlds of theology, philosophyand painting. Raphael was a great synthesist painting with great facility, naturalness and complexity as in a dance, groupings of figures in a forum. He is able to reverseDante’s placing of these pagan figures in limbo(the Inferno). The reformation is almost over. He translates theological and philosophical ideas into harmonious compositions. He knew from the library at Urbino how to portray the figures who were in the shelves below, but he also related them to each other and to the whole discipline of which they formed a part.We see how he poses his great contemporaries Michelangelo(Heraclitus), Leonardo(Plato) and Bramante( as Euclid) in the picture.The discussion on the two books, The Timeus and the Ethics was fruitful as to the different interpretations of God by the two philosophers and the ideas of knowledge versus wisdom, the difference between mathematics(Pythagoras on Plato’s side) andbiology. Then the similarities between the two books and the way objections to Plato were smoothed out and both were embraced by Aquinas and Augustine was excellently covered.They spoke ofhow these two philosophers were superseded in the 17th century by Descartes and Hobbes, who both worked from first principles, and became part of the history of philosophy. The speakers mentioned on the opposite wall Divine Wisdom floats in the sky above the heads of those philosophers, theologians and Church Fathers who havetried to interpret it. In these two flowing groups the seekers after revealed truth are arranged with the same regard for their relations with each other, and with the philosophic scheme of the whole room, that exists in the School of Athens. These twowalls represent a summit of civilization. On the 3rd wall the fresco of Parnassus reveal the civilizing muses with a depiction of Sapho. It is interesting how Raphaeldepicts himself in a group of astronomers on the side of Aristotle and Leonardo(the real one). Weneed to revive Raphael as one of the greatest artists of all time.

Michael Shepherd : The School of Athens
Congratulations on another excellent instalment of Melvyn Bragg's 'Civilisation; on Radio'.Two small points : a programme based on a painting would have benefitted from the presence of an art historian, to discuss just who set the programme for the set of paintings in the Segnatura. Was it a committee ? Did it come out of the library of Urbino into Raphael's mind ? Did it come from the Vatican itself ? That line of discussion might have revealed more of the influence of Plato and Aristotle in the Renaissance around 1509.The other point is that Raphael's painting could be seen as a perpetual insult to Aristotle's reputation ! It was Aristotle above all who taught men to think systematically (Plato, to teach men what to think about..): in this year of celebrating Darwin, we should pay tribute to Aristotle for making us consider genus, species, levels of cause and effect, and the whole categorisation of our planet.However, weekly cheers to Melvyn Bragg for providing the education we never quite got around to in our schooling..!

Robert Murphy: Programme Suggestion
Regards from Japan! Thank you, Melvyn and your team, for this programme and your newsletter. If only university had been like this! (Or maybe I was too "young".) This programme's podcast is a highlight of the week. I discovered "IOT" only a year ago, thanks to the podcast. How about tackling Chesterton, focusing on "Eugenics..." and/or "Orthodoxy", or maybe Distributism?

Jennifer Bassett: The School of Athens
A fascinating discussion, as always. Thank you. I have just been studying Raphael's fresco, and am intrigued by the dark doorway below the stage to the left. It is quite a statement in the picture, and I wonder how today's experts interpret its significance. Was it symbolising a gateway to hell, or the crypt where all these philosophers' bones would one day lie, or the dark, mindless abyss that awaits all those who do not engage in rational intellectual debate?

In Our Time
thank you so much for this inspiring and respectful way of exploring and communicating, i had the radio on earlier this morning and politics was on i had to switch it off asap... how is it that britain is so argumentative, aggressive, unwilling to solve problems together? i would love your analysis from a historical point of view.... i m swiss living in n ireland since 12 years... and a regular radio 4 listener enjoy your day!

John - Quantum Mechanics
Dear I.O.T.Good Day I.O.T.!...Many think it's worth saying again that we've scoured the internet, and it seems no one can do as Good a Job as Melvin with hopefully the help of Penrose, on making a future multi-parter on the foundational findings of Q.M and Quantum Theory about the universe we experience, and help these subjects to resonate for the listener.Like the Darwin Series Covered a large topic very well so too would a Q.M Series.Very BestJohn.

Geoff Hodson Subject :General
The programme is a jewel and not to be missed. It really is the best thing on radio or TV.

Boxer Rebellion
Have just read Melvyn's newsletter. Funnily enough, I was just reading about the Taiping revolution in Hobsbawm's Age of Capital (again). Hobsbawm says it 'has been largely ignored by Euro-centric historians', but Marx wrote in 1853 'Perhaps the next uprising of the people of Europe may depend more on what is now takingp lace in the celestial empire than on any other existing political cause.'So he wasn't all bad! I was fascinated by the Boxer rebellion programme and now want to read more. I was going to ask if you could give lists of follow-up reading in the newsletter each week, but then found the further reading bit on the web site. Never knew that was there.Jeff Horner

Graham Robinson - Programme Suggestion
I think the historical consequences of the Donation of Constantine would make an interesting programme.Best Regards

Duane Usrey--USA---Topic Suggestion
I would vary much appreciate a show(s) discussing the difference in legal systems between England and the United States. Hopefully it would be complete with the historical evolution of the differences.

Paul Reeman - MB's Newsletter after 'The Boxer Reb
In the Newsletter following this programme MB comments on Prime Ministers (in the days of Empire)catching the bus home after 'work'.Immediately post WW2, in the days when the Empire was slowly being dissolved, the then PM, Clement Attlee, used to travel to Parliament by London Underground from his home in Stanmore after being driven to the station by his wife.It would be interesting to know more about when, and how quickly, this sort of practice died out and who brought it about. Was it the politicians themselves or pressure form the Police etc.?

james Quantum Mechanics
All the I.O.T's on Q.M. are mind bendingly good but I struggle to understand where the physics ends and the complex maths begins and the relationship in simple terms between the two. Am i just not listening hard enough?

Jane - two quotations.
Still love IOT but I've tired of my own diatribes so will silence myself for a while. Before I do, I'd really like to share these two wonderful quotations which, for me, 'ping' with a deep truth. The first is from William Stanley Jevans: 'True science will not deny the existence of things because they cannot be weighed or measured. It will rather lead us to believe that the wonders and subtleties of possible existence surpass all that our mental powers allow us clearly to perceive. We must ignore no existence whatsoever. We may variously interpret or explain its meaning and origin, but if a phenomenon does exist, it demands some kind of explanation'. The second is written by the astronomer and poet Rebecca Elson (with thanks to Marie - Boethius week)) from 'Antidotes to Fear of Death'...'To lie down here on earth Beside our long ancestral bones: To walk across the cobble fields Of our discarded skulls, Each like a treasure, like a chrysalis, Thinking: whatever left these husks Flew off on bright wings'. Talk about 'in a nutshell'! It was in the 'metaphysical poets' week that I wrote something about poems capturing what even the greatest tome can't.....I think the power of these few words is utterly incredible. Treasure yourselves. Very best wishes to all - Jane.

Peter van Breda - The Wasteland and Modernity
Hello Melvyn, I am struck by the similarities between The Wasteland and the work of Georg Trakl in the context of the lack of coherence, many voices and fractured nature of his works. Trakl was writing, however, some twenty years earlier. It would be nice to have an edition of In Our Time that looks at this poet.Many thanks.

Krishna
What were "China's 10 great humiliations" that was mentioned. Can't find them on Wikipedia, Google, or Amazon

Kenny Devon
Hi MelvynAs a keen amateur scientist I've been listening with delight to the Science related archives, and have two suggestions for future programmes:1. the very real and very surprising powers of those most unreal of entities - the complex numbers (Penrose waxes lyrical on these)2. Euler's identity - surely the most mysterious of all equations. It has the beauty and succinctness of its more famous cousin from the physical world, Einstein's E=mc2, but is even more remarkable for bringing together in one equation the most fundamental numbers from three completely different areas of mathematics (e, i, and pi). It's breathtaking. Is there some deeper meaning to their connection? Discuss.With many thanks for the show,RegardsKenny Devon

Sixtus Beckmesser
I was slightly disappointed with this morning's programme, albeit only because I rather wished it could have been twice as long - the analysis of the origins of the Boxer Rising was very interesting, but it left very little time to deal with its progress and the siege of the Peking Legations, let alone the Peitang Cathedral, was hardly touched on. Similarly, the Seymour expedition was merely given a passing mention. I should love to have heard more and this fascinating subject could do with a longer discussion at some other time.

In Our Time
Just to show appreciation of this programme and also to confirm how important it is for me to be able to go through it a second time - i play. Thanks Peter Smith

Abbas Ali ; Quantum mechanics
dear mel B: I found this particular programme very interesting, i always thought i was mad but now i realise i am completly sane, but i always believed that the observer could obsreve being observed. This is the way forward for humans to understand Q M. We must broaden our minds to dismember the laws of physics in such a way that we no longer follow it in a straight line. Atoms in our minds are able to adjust to many wave lengths but it is up to us to choose the right frequency.

Jane - Library at Alexandria
It is true that the best ideas and inventions tend to seem incredibly obvious once they emerge. This library was no exception and the collating and organizing of so much information was really good common sense - as was the formulation of punctuation and grammar in relation to organization and thus comprehension of language. It would seem that some of the volume of the library was accounted for by repetition. The programme started me thinking about knowledge. Ours is a strange lot on this planet, for all around our quotidian comfort zone lies mystery which few even consider amidst the daily 'doing' where habit reigns. How do we place value? True knowledge is not really possible except in the context of a completed understanding of reality which we're nowhere near. We tend towards a discrete and somewhat chaotic fragmentation. In a world of plenitude the rarefied 'echelons of epistemology' are a wonderful engagement of the intellect in man, but in a world of largely imposed lack such as ours, shouldn't evolved conscience possibly point to a much greater utilitarian use of knowledge. What's the big deal of discovery? What's been discovered was there all the time anyway be it science, history, geology or whatever. It's simply our relative grip on it which has emerged. What we do with the discovery is surely the paramount bit. The library at Alexandria was naturally separate from the events (barbarism) outside its doors, but I really think that over two thousand years later we should have seen greater integration and implementation of the contribution of this planet's finest minds (which may not be included in the historically familiar). At this point I arrive, inevitably, at the manipulative 'catch 22' of politics and of those who seek and hold the wrong sort of power...and who is paying for the research and why etc.. Knowledge is far and away our greatest power and tends to be used as a double edged sword. With knowledge comes huge responsibility and it seems to me that the finest use of epistemology should be to wisely optimise the application of information and more importantly, understand the barriers to that. Of course, common sense being reintroduced would be the most powerful tool of all - but whilst our catch 22 is in place there's little chance of that..............common sense let loose........unthinkable! Best wishes and thanks for all the new synapses which this week's programme has forged in my brain!

Measurement Problem
There was some talk about epistemological constraints and Kant's Thing-In-Itself.Also the observer changing the thing he observed;that not observing also had an effect.Thereseemed to be a difference betweenconceptual frameworks -mathematicaltools like Schrodinger's Equation andthe wavefunction-and the perception ofreality.Sorry if this sounds half-bakedand unformulated and I can't quiteexpress what I'm struggling to say but I thought I'd throw a few words into the ashes(still glowing) of that verygood programme.

Emma re: library of Alexandria
The multiracial polyglot of Alexandria mentioned but surely the non-white non-Greek would not have been free to benefit from library culture unless indirectly (learned Master/favourite slave situation) I was wondering were the excluded book burners? The only reason given for the library demise was religious repression, was there no underdog/excluded rebellion?The programme made the multiracial polyglot seem passive and as if they were stored away like books but not valued as such, the panel were not going in this direction of thought.

Quantum Mechanics Notnef
Roger Penrose in the above programme said that if too much time had been taken up with discussions concerning the original quantum idea it would have left no time for its development. This in a historical sense. Which is why no doubt there was little or no mention in the programme of the originator of Quantum Mechanics( Q M ), one Max Planck. Planck was famous for inventing a formula or equation on which early Q M is based, basically describing heat flow from a hot surface, and from which all the subsequent problems have ensued. This equation is so complicated that even Science reference books still get it wrong after 100 yrs, also it is very weird. In Planck's equation there is an incongruous (- 1) motif dangling dangerously off the end of it, which (if it is not careful), could fall off! In order to balance anomalies in his heat experiment results, Planck inserted the aforesaid (- 1), and then spent some time trying to justify it theoretically. These were the beginnings of the Q M saga. From such seemingly insignificant starts, like topsy are eventual magic cats born! Einstein initially as far as I know never liked Planck's method, but later dithered first one way and then another on Q M. Anyway perhaps Roger Penrose is wrong and concentration should be placed on Q M's origins. Maybe Planck's experiment could be replayed(has it ever been repeated?), and instead of using poor old Planck's abacus or whatever calculator he used in the early 1900's, the full force of modern computers brought to bear on the matter. So scientists might be able to come up with a different equation with a non quantum outcome whilst still simulating Planck's experimental results. We can but hope. Some commentators say we need more philosophers in science - surely not - Q M is pure philosophy already. What we need is more practical science

graham smetham - measurement problem
The following remark is from the eleventh century Buddhist master Atisha - He who presumes to measure the immeasurable,that presumptuous measurer is your negative friend!

Stephanie Beauvais, The Wasteland and Modernity
I wanted to thankyou for the show on the wasteland, I am currently studying English and American Literature at UEA, so as you can imagine The Wasteland is a central text to my course. It terrified me, but then my mum suggested I listened to your show and I am delighted I did because I thoroughly enjoyed everything you talked about and I have a new, much better understanding of what I can now see is an incredible piece of writing. Thankyou again. Stephanie Beauvais, Somerset.

martin mcdonagh
Dear Melvyn,Thanks for a wonderful,stimulating and rich programme. In Our Time is in its own way a library of Alexandria for our times. Best wishes,Martin McDonagh,

graham smetham - measurement problem
Thanks BenI was amazed to discover how crucial the realization that the appearance of external materiality is an 'illusion' or is 'illusion-like', the terminology differs between schools, was in the Mind-Only Buddhist school and, to a lesser extent, Madhyamaka. The following is from Atisha in the Book of Kadam: 'Now I shall cast to the winds concepts of solid objects with mass.' It is amazing that the insight into the quantum nature of reality, although that word was obviously not used, was central - many Buddhists do not realize this. The Jonang other-emptiness school clearly had a conscept corresponding to the wavefunction - 'the element of attributes'.Best Wishes - graham

James Scott
I enjoy the programmes each week. just started receiving melvyn'snewsletters. It is interesting to read his comments on how the programme went, what worked and what was missed etc.; and what he is planning for the rest of the day or near future. I think a good walk in the fresh air helps clear the mind and resolve issues running around the mind.

David Barnett, Ph.D. - Library at Alexandria
One of the most influential Alexandrian translation projects was for the Hebrew Bible which became known as the Septuagint. Would Christianity have become a world religion without it?

GrahamR - Library contents
I was hoping a little devilment might have prompted the question of exactly what knowledge they filled 250,000 volumes with in those days? A dozen shelves of geometry, another dozen of bridge, ship and aqueduct building... let's face it, not much biology or physics. They must have been bulked out with an awful lot of literature!We should have been told!Anyway, it was interesting as always.

Paulpic Library in Egypt
Maybe the organizational problems with the virtual library of all knowledge, that is the web, is that it has no place to which our minds can relate it. I propose 180 degrees longitude / 0 lattitude & 4000 below sea level (virtually of course).

The Library at Alexandria
The facts that led to the demise of the great library were it had formerly been run by a Greek elite for the time of the first two Ptolemies, leading to a blaze of intellectual enterprise, which never reached beyond a small circle of people in touch with the group of philosophers. Artisans and traders never came in contact with the thinkers.The philosophers speculated loftily about atoms and the nature of things, but he had no practical experience of enamels and pigments and philtres and such things. He wasnot interested in substances. The intellectual blaze is shut off from the world at large.The world went on in its old ways unaware that the revolutionary seed of scientific knowledge that would one day revolutionize it had been sown. There were few practical applications of science except in the realms of medicine, and the progress ofscience was not stimulated and sustained by the interest and excitement of practicalapplications. There was therefore nothing to keep the work going when the intellectual curiosity of Ptolemy I and Ptolemy II was withdrawn. The discoveries of the museum went on in obscure manuscripts and never, until the revival of scientific curiosity at the Renaissance, reached out to the mass of mankind. Nor did the Library produce any improvements in book-making. Paper-a Chinese invention-did not reach the West until 9th Century AD. The only book materials wereparchment and strips of the papyrus reed joined edge to edge. These strips were kept in rolls that were ver unwieldy to wind to and fro and read and very inconvenient for referenc Everything was handwritten and copied. The world had known the printing of seals on clay tablets in Sumeria, but without abundant paper there was little advantage in printing books. Also as the dynasty of the Ptolemies went on they became Egyptianized, they fell under the sway of Egyptian priest and Egyptian religious developments, they ceased to follow the work that was done, and their control stifled the spirit of enquiry altogether.. The brilliant intellectual life here andat Syracuse and at Pergamon of the Hellenic world was increasingly stricken by invasions from the north, Gallic, Roman and Parthian and Mongolian nomads.

James; Religious groups owning their own scripture
It's more like music; publishers own the recent translations of the Christian scriptures. At least one New Zealand academic has done his own translation of the New Testament, because he wanted to rearrange it into his view of the order in which it was written, and could not get permission to use an existing translation.

jane re Julian Wontner
I agree totally - I read that Albert Einstein kept a copy of 'The Secret Doctrine', which relates to the vedic teachings, on his desk. Such ancient Eastern concepts in a receptive, informed and imaginative Western mind, could bear fruit. To collate every scrap of information which might hold a clue or a missing link seems basic common sense to me....but maybe that's part of the problem! Train of thought.....does awarding scientists with Nobel prizes etc. help science or does it create a situation in which humble co-operation and truly free thinking are usurped by a certain, if often unconscious, self-serving ambition to achieve 'a result', to the detriment of exemplary science? I still think the point I made previously about understanding the 'agendas' of scientists is incredibly important and not generally accounted for at all. What a lovely and appreciative email from 'An American & Discovering IOT'. Best wishes

An American & Discovering IOT
My message is simple. I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person who has a passion for those things that interest me, from my devout love for my children and wife to my incontestable fanaticism for American Football, and I can honestly say that the moment I discovered the In Our Time program, I truly felt as if I had discovered a completely unfounded concept – intelligent programming that strives to educate and does so without pretention or, even worse, simplification. I’m a proud American, but in the field of responsible, intelligent programming that relies on peaceful and factual discussion to source it’s content, we could not even claim to have so much as a niche market of the same. IOT is a new passion of mine, often forcing aside my interest in American college football to create enough time for me to listen to a particular podcast for the second or third time. The IOT archives is a candy store sans guilt and I am counting on future programs to share the same tendency for producing profound results. The moment that IOT produces a podcast on the evolution of American Football, from it’s original roots of rugby league through it’s infant years as an experiment in brutality played on fields of iron silt on to it’s current state as a trillion dollar industry bent on globalization, I will have found my Mona Lisa.

Memo for Melvyn Bragg regarding
Memo for Melvyn Bragg regarding "In our time" on Thursday 5 March from Julian WontnerI was able to listen to your programme regarding methods to understand the science of Quantum Theory. It was regrettable that one aspect for understanding this modern theory was not included in the programme. I am sure that you are aware in general terms of the Vedas in India, a learning that dates back thousands of years.Althought the participants and your contribution were most interesting, the one thing missing in the discussion was the teachings and learnings that explain the theory very clearly for those with advanced spiritual learning.There has been in the past 20 years a number of conferences discussing the implications of spiritual understandings from ancient teachings that modern learning/science ought to take into consideration for they explain an understanding of the complexities of the theory that you and your panellist discussed, and it would be a great benefit for listeners - particularly those who follow up your programmes - to have another further discussion with the same panellists and someone who can clearly present and understands at least to a certain level the teachings of the Vedas and Upanishads.Amongst the vast teachings of Sathya Sai Baba of Puttaparthe, Southern India, you will find aspects of the oneness of Creation and the clear distinction of the different aspects therein. General Suri (the Indian High Commissioner would have his telephone number in London) and other senior Indian scientists like Professor Dr Bhagavantum, ex Head of Nuclear Physics for the Indian government, who could discuss the implications in a coherent way of this huge and fascinating subject. General Suri would also know how to contact the professor and others who are senior learned professors in India.Although you did not mention the string theory, everything that was discussed seemed to miss the aspect that the Vedas provide and it it time today for the East and West to come together to learn from each others research. kind regards Julian Wontner

Dr David Barnett - Relativity, Quantum Mechanics a

To Richard Newell: Quantum Mechanics works perfectly well with Special Relativity [or, in fact, any fixed geometry space-time].

The problem is gravity. According to Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, energy [i.e. mass] warps space-time producing a gravitational field. Quantum energy fluctuations ought to do the same. Since the geometry changes will affect the frequencies and wavelengths in the wave functions [and hence the energy density] there is an awkward "feedback" between the two which has a tendency to "blow up". This is why Gravity and Quantum Mechanics are hard to reconcile, and why a more general theory encompassing both is needed.

The gravity problem may well impinge upon the "measurement problem", but I do not think it is at its heart. As I posted previously, I believe the "many worlds" interpretation is perfectly viable - just uncomfortable for humans to think about. In fact, recent investigations by David Deutsch have shown that many worlds interpretation leads naturally to the probabilities calculated by the Copenhagen procedure.

When interpreting an experiment, it is like looking at features of an unfamiliar neighbourhood and trying to figure out where one is from a map. The more distinctive the features, the greater your confidence in your guess.

Ben Brown. The measurement problem in physics.
When it is understood that we have only a PERCEPTION of time, it becomes clear why there is a measurement problem. I will try to make this clear in simple terms. Consider the relatively common experience of trying to avoid a collision or perhaps experiencing a collision in a vehicle with a solid object. The brief and intensive seconds prior to collision seem to slow into a form of slow motion. This has been described by a specialist in brain science [I think it was Susan Greenfield who I heard some years ago.] as our brain speeding up the number of 'takes' which are then read by our brain at normal scanning speed. Hence an increased awareness of the passage of 'time' and a greatly increased awareness of detail. This would suggest that our brains are programmed to a standard human perception ........ but who can say? Who has not experienced 'slow' days or 'fast' days?!!!!!!!! Is it possible that champion racing drivers have a subconscious ability to react in such a way that they see in a much slower 'format' as their brain is producing more 'takes' than the average driver ............. I could continue!! It is ap[propriate to draw attention to the account of a pilot in ' Decisive moments' which followed the quantom p[hysics programme. Maybe his 'takes' accelerated giving greater perceived time in which to draw on his stored knowledge of aircraft flight and control!!!!DISCUSS!!!!!!!!! I suggest another programme to include Susan Greenfield and the said pilot!!This issue leads on to MUCH bigger, mind boggeling possibilities! How long is a million years????????

jane - the realization of matter
There was a programme I saw on the television a long time ago which showed that cells in a developing foetus would modify themselves to the characteristic of whatever part of the anatomy they were put into - as though there were some morphological 'pull' or influence and either a neutrality or universality in each cell. Well, similarly, is this what happens with the sub atomic 'stuff' as it appears as form? I know of Rupert Sheldrake's morphological fields etc. but I interpret that valid hypothesis as conditioning from, or reiteration of, prior formations. I'm thinking in addition to this. Presently we lack the aid of technology which would give our senses empirical back up to the maths - or reverse the situation so that the maths became supportive. The 'of this earth' mindset is probably reaching its limits at this threshold and will almost certainly have to be sacrificed by those who want to find the deeper truth. A certain humility and shift of perspective and position may be prerequisite. The radical thinking may simply not be radical enough. The mind should also seek to understand the strengths and weaknesses of current empiricism as well as the appropriate use and inappropriate misuse of it. I do harp on but domestic drudgery needs a considerable outlet! Best wishes

Ben - Measurement Problem -
Graham Smetham, - Quick reply:...The word "inherently" clarifies it.... It's a complicated subject, and you would be well aware there are thousands of books on Madhyamaka. Good luck with your book.... I do think some if not many physicists do take account of consciousness but use scientific terms. Other physicists do not....It's all grist to the mill. I find I understand Quantum Physics best, when physicists use the terms they understand best.

jane - measurement problem
Just catching up on the comments and thinking about the realization of matter

Chrisanne
Is there a possible comparison between the difficulties presented in the measurement problem and the theorectical empasse of uniting rationalism and empiricism? Kant emphasised the central role of the subject in constituting what appears to us as objective reality, it's only because we have eyes, we can know the world visually. A subjects physical capacity for making sense of an object, in a way, determines the way the object can be understood. Characteristics which are outside a subjects capacity, if any, exist as noumena, a realm in which nothing can known. I believe the problem is precisely a human epistemic one.

Jane - two quotations - Thoreau and Darwin
My son has been poorly with a sickness bug over the weekend so to occupy myself as I tended him, I have tidied out some papers and found two quotations which I'd saved. The first is David Thoreau and can be interpreted in various ways: "This world is but a canvas to our imagination". The second is Charles Darwin and can only be interpreted one way: "If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature but by our institutions, great is our sin". Best wishes.

Paddy - last weeks programme
WOW!Whoever says that we are dumbing down needs to listen to that Melvin Bragg and his guests. I have just starting being able to talk after processing the deeply complex discussion that went on.I did wonder sometimes why the guests were so "gental" in saying that the other held a particular view, was there a particular reason for that?Thank you and more please

Problems in physics
A few comments on last weeks programe- Taking the snooker table withtwo groves. If the groovs were magnatised and the ball made of steel the ball will 'kmow' that the other grove was switched off ie no magnetic field.-I a persom was traviling at 100mph and shooting out the back a machine gun at 100mph rotating the mussel in a curculer motion a static onlooker would see a waveform of particals from whichever oplane they were looking from. Would this not explaine the waveform/partical problem?

Dave Taylor - The Gaia Hypothesis'
To celebrate James Lovelock's 90th birthday this year how about an 'In Our Time' special on 'The Gaia Hypothesis' with preferably the great man himself taking part in the discussion?

The Library at Alexandria - Appollonius
Appollonius the so-called Great Geometer worked at Alex. To judge from his elegant proofs, his could truly be called a beautiful mind. If possible please discuss him and the lost part of his works.Michael Brennan

Tom Milner-Gulland - Measurement/ QM
The constitution of the photon, and the reason why its emission should be constrained (in so-called quanta) in the manner in which it appears to be, continues to defy scientific insight. While currently we generally regard the properties of matter as being dictated by the properties of the photon, we might equally declare that it is the physical structure of *matter* that is so organised as to yield the energetic effects that we observe in light. The distinction between nucleus and electron shell may be thus viewed as a material, not an energetic, construct. This begs the question as to how this construct -- which serves to impose, as the basic property of matter, the ratio of electron mass to proton mass -- is sustained. By being led, then, inevitably to conceive of the fundamental constants of nature as being the substrate that renders matter tangible and real, we must conclude that the basis of reality there lies a hierarchy that is neither spatial nor temporal. (This is a paraphrase of some of my published work - as, incidentally, are most of my other comments on this MB.)

Prem - Measurement Problem
I've just remembered that my very first physics lesson, aged 11, began with the teacher defining the subject thus: "Physics is the science of measurement"I wonder how many people would agree with that today.

Prem - Measurement Problem
I've listened to this week's podcast a couple of times and I can't honestly say I learned very much, though it did send me to off to Wikipedia to find out more. Glancing through the feedback it seems the people who enjoyed it most were those who already knew a good bit about the subject, which I suppose is par for the course. But does physics really have to be so impenetrable to the layman? It sometimes reminds me of theologians arguing about the niceties of some arcane doctrine where the whole underlying epistemological framework is taken for granted. With a degree in philosophy but little more than O level science, I'm often struck by the frustration of eminent scientists on IOT who try to explain themselves, as if there's a huge divide between them and the non-mathematical public that they find nearly impossible to bridge. I imagine a lot of people would not be particularly interested in a discussion about, say, Petrarch, but you don't need a degree in medieval history to at least follow the conversation. I agree with Keith Farman's point that scientists might do well to study some philosophy, but maybe we would all do well to study more maths. Perhaps then we'd have a better chance of talking to each other.

Jaipur, Orientalism, Peter Household –: reply by C
Peter Household believes that the use of Edward Said’s pejorative term ‘Orientalism’ near the end of the excellent programme on Jai Singh’s Observatory in Jaipur was justified. I listened again and considered that the views expressed stood perfectly well on their own without the use of the word ‘Orientalism’. Its use really added nothing to the discussion, except to impose anachronistically an unproven 20C theory onto the discourse.Of course there were arrogant and imperialistic attitudes as well as sympathetic ones - for example Macaulay and Curzon, respectively. This does not warrant a generalisation that demeans the West.Another example of the selectivity of Said’s use of history to support his theory is exemplified in the contribution in ‘Have Your Say’ by Jon Stubbings, under ‘Dante's Inferno’. Jon Stubbings pointed out that Said found support for his idea in Dante’s placing of Muhammad among the Heretics and Schismatics (Canto 28). However Dante did this because he wrongly believed Muhammad to have been a Christian who had apostasised. Yet Dante placed other prominent Muslims (Canto IV) – Saladin, Averroes and Avicenna – positively in Limbo, together with Aristotle, Plato, Galen, and other un-baptised.It seems you can ‘prove’ anything if you are selective.Christopher Maycock

Jo - lack of chemistry programmes
This isn't actually about this weeks programme but that scrolling through the science archive I note a distinct inbalance against Chemistry. Why? I love chemistry. Give me more!

Matthew Goldman Brisbane Australia
Please please please rehearse the theoretical physics programs with a test audience drawn from frequent IOT listeners. Although I applaud the way Lord Bragg doesn’t shy away from the more theoretical topics, there really is no reason why “the measurement problem” shouldn’t be explained as well as a history based topic. Unfortunately university academic staff have very little need to make a lay-audience understand their subject and as a result don’t have the language or examples to do the job properly. While asking leading academic staff to participate in the programme gives the discussion an up-to-date feel, it doesn’t really fulfil the basic aim of the program which is to entertain/educate the audience and leave them with a feeling that they have understood the topic a little better.

Jane - Melvyn's newsletter
Melvyn's newsletter reminded me of a friend who, after a fair bit of wine, thought he'd pop out to buy a CD for his daughter. He looked around for his glasses but couldn't find them so grabbed his spare ones. When he arrived at the shop he put the specs on but was rather alarmed by how fuzzy his eyesight became. He squinted his way around, found what he wanted and paid. As he put his hand up to take his glasses off he realized that he'd actually got two pairs on simultaneously! How uncool he must have looked..... makes me laugh every time I think of it.

Bill M
I felt the programme could have been better handled, and I was surprised at some of Melvyn's untimely interruptions of his speakers on the one hand, amnd his failure to pin them down to a clear definition of some of the terms they freely used on the other. For example, there was no real attempt to explain the term "wave function", so that whenever I heard it used, I tried to fit my mental picture of waves on an oscilloscope into the ensuing discussion, but I have no idea whether my mental construct is accurate or not. Not IoT's best effort, I feel, but I would agree with the suggeston made earlier that a three-parter, a la Darwin, might be helpful.

Vicki Morley quantum phsics
Time is the key to the world of the particle. We have measurement problems because we are measuring different times in the life of the particle all at the same time. I cross the room I was here, now there, the quantum is here and there because the time is different.Light from a star can take 8 light years to arrive, we have no problems with that concept of time.

God as transcendence - not a mechanical cause
Dear Melvin BraggAn amazing discussion Thursday 5th. This calls for a discussion of God as trascendence - a different view of being. Why does anything exist at all? (Heideggar) One speaker referred to the occaisionalist (interventionist) view of God. But this is not the only view of God. Its time the Anglo-saxon scientist moved on. Professor Brian Leftow (Oxford) could be interesting for listeners. Please organise a programme on different views of God, Yours sincerely Patrick Mulvey.

rick fetters - Measurement Problem
I have to complement you on allowing your guests to speak at such a high level on this topic and not forcing them to over-simplify their response to the point of loosing important insights. It was difficult to mentally process this program real-time because of the information density and new concepts offered. But I am on my third listen and still getting new insights that I can further research through the internet. One of your best programs.

Richard Newell. Measurement Problem
Where was Dirac? Your contributors implied that the quantum/relativity reconciliation problem had never been tackled. So much Schrodinger, yet none of his fellow Nobel laureate.

gwilym, measurement problem in physics
brilliant programme, the discussion exposes the limits of our scientific knowledge. If two (at least) different theories are needed to explain phenomena then clearly neither is correct in understanding the phenomena but merely a method of explaining what we see to be happening.We could compare such theories to pre-Copernican attempts to explain the movement of the sun and stars, that is the sun and stars appear to circle the earth so the geocentric model was used to explain what we saw but in fact it concealed the true nature of what was happening.

jane - The Measurement Problem
Mine was not an easy morning. I was out of sorts in my macroself and the knock on effect hit me hard in my microself so by the time I switched on the radio I was thinking "do I even care about the measurement problem?". Within seconds, inner order was restored and I listened with interest not only to the subject matter but to the truly civilized nature of the whole discussion. I have also quickly read the comments page (I wish Graham Smetham's comment hadn't cut off) and am, intellectually speaking, not much further on due to the many differing perspectives. I suppose edification is simply not possible at this incomplete and speculative stage. Melvyn used the word 'bizarre' but really, everything is bizarre - it's just that most things are familiar. The extended perception of a top notch mystic (there are always one or two on the planet) would probably be of immense use to the grappling physicists but it's not a likely scenario. The innate humour of a top notch mystic would also bring a lot of laughter to the proceedings, but given the seriousness which tends to accompany science, it might be somewhat one sided. This seriousness makes the cracking open of personal 'agendas' understandably unwelcome but I think that it is crucial to understand what a scientist either wants or needs to believe in a broad sense ('though this may be somewhat transparent even to them) in order to fully interpret and ascertain their work. As Frances Bacon once said "The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion draws all things else to support and agree with it". Seems to me that the attempt to study even the tip of the iceberg of consciousness (not limited to the brain) will be where the 'big science' really starts. What I don't understand, given the compromised situation we humans find ourselves in (that's one of my agendas) is why scientists aren't pushing harder at the boundaries, delighting in paradigm shift. What's so great about the familiar except that it's familiar? Obviously the tangible reality we know exists in relation to the sub-atomic activity but are we actually interfaced with it, which was the word used in this morning's programme? I wouldn't view it exactly like that or maybe I wasn't listening carefully. (Does Melvyn's mind never wander off or, uninvited, suddenly ask him what he fancies for lunch? Seems not.) The apparent solidity of matter gives us a perception of 'interface' but we should question that. What is holding it together as form? I know there's talk of possible dimensions etc, but do physicists work with what might exist on 'other sides' of the sub-atomic processes, what else they might be contextually relative to which also brings influence? Although physicists are probably the least guilty, there's still a 'centre of the universe' element to human thinking. I assume that supreme physicists have 'a nose', a 'gut feeling', a natural intuition or, best of all, a visionary aspect which they bring to the drawing board. I'd personally like the lovely nature of fractals to be part of the universal picture - and I once read books on hypotheses for both a holographic universe and one based on vortexes. I do agree with John that this is as fundamentally important as Darwinism and a similar series (if Melvyn could brace himself) would do us a great service. It's a daunting undertaking, but with the right participants - including appropriate philosophers, and less time pressure plus the luxury of editing, it would be do-able.... but then again, if you could bend the rules, nip eastwards and find a bona fide mystic...... Thanks for restoring my equilibrium with another great programme. Best wishes.

Jason Kilburn Evans Measurement Problem in Quantum
From the viewpoint of General Relativity, it seems clear to me that Quantum Theory is incomplete. Einstein's Field Equations in GR relate space/time to energy/matter whilst Quantum Mechanics (and all of its extrapolations) talk only about the evolution of energy matter and assume a background spacetime but tell us next to nothing about it.For me it seems likely Quantum Theory is describing the properties of an as-yet unrealized solution of GR.The idea that the wavefunction is collapsed by consciousness seems to me ludicrous and the multitude of many worlds absurdly wasteful.Something that did occur to me is the following what-if: what if the wavefunction is in some way leaking into the spacetime of the system or particle it is describing? Then as we approach the macroscopic scale the leaks add up to a collapse, in the case of the proverbial cat, into one or the other state; in other words spacetime is the observer.

Suggestion for discussion
ear MelvynYou may well have done this and I missed it...At present it seems that when life on earth ends that it will be hard to find a trace left behind in our position in space. How feasible is it to seed life on suitable planets that the Kepler Telescope might find?Bests Tony McQueen near Weobley

Rob D, Quantum Mechanics
Although I'm a big fan (and listen to the podcast regularly), sometimes--usually when the subject is one which I used to know a bit about, such as organic chemistry or quantum mechanics--it disappoints. And I would suggest, a lot depends on the guests. In a parallel world, you invited Peter Atkins (author of several books on my shelf), and IOT listeners like me went away enlightened and enthused rather than put off.

Robin Allott The Measurement Problem
Disappointing and even incoherent. To constrict Penrose and the others to a few disconnected remarks on extremely difficult matters was unsatisfactory. The subject really could not be fitted into the constraints of the IOT format.What is needed is an hour-long structured programme, or more than one, chaired by someone like Martin Rees. An hour could usefully be spent presenting and discussing the wide-ranging ideas of David Bohm.

Tony Best
Immediately after listening to the podcast of the programme, I listened to the rebroadcast of the Material World programme on Kepler. The reaction, at the time, to Kepler's work seemed to parallel the comment in your programme that physicists may have to undo nearly 100 years of research into how the universe is put together. I know that 45 minutes cannot even scratch the surface of a complex subject, but it would have been instructive to hear your panel touch on the subject of how chaos theory has changed perceptions of Newtonian physics and possible prallels with current views of quantum physics.

Peter Brookes,Measurement March5th 2009
This was a superb programme, one of the best of the series, I think with some really clear debate. I just think that Schrodinger's cat was introduced too soon! We needed more time on the background to the thinking deriving form work on diffraction and spectral lines. There must be another programme here perhaps embracing Einstein's thoughts on all these matters and how he interacted with Scrodinger and Bohr.

measurement problem - graham smetham
Ben has tried to put me right on my assertion that 'classical matter does not exist'. But I rhink he misunderstands me. He makes his point by reference to the Buddhist Madhyamaka teachings. I am completely aware of these teachings as I am a Madhyamaka practitioner and have just spent eight years writing a book about quantum physics and the Madhyamaka. The point is that 'classical' matter, as quantum physicist Professor Henry Stapp and others such as David Bohm point out, is defined precisely as being independent of the mind. To use Madhyamaka speak classical matter is asserted to be inherently existent. Therefore I am correct in my assertion, which is also Professor Stapp`s assertion, that classical matter does not exist. This is exactly the same as saying that matter does not exist inherently - which is a core teaching of the Madhyamaka!

AllanMorgan: Measurement problem
From earlier comment- Zen Master: "Nothing exists."There are no things; only processes.

Dr Sharon Strawbridge, The measurement problem
Trapped at home by snow, I had the entertainment of your very enlightening programme on why we cannot reconcile the quantum world with the macroscopic world.We have a model that works very well you can predict with it, it has utility, and the maths is elegant but, it is a model all the same, and revolutions do happen. I have a very statistical view of nature and in that every answer is possible its just some answers are more possible than others. I really enjoyed the debate. Who is to say who is right?

Judith Johnstone - The Measurement Problem
Sadly, even when concentrating very hard, couldn't get past the two slits in the snooker table - but hey, it was fun anyway, and I'm glad somebody understands what this is all about.On an unrelated matter Melvyn might want to know 'The unexamined life...' is from Plato's 'Apology' 38, Socrates addressing the jury prior to sentence.

Measurement Problem
I felt this was an unsuccessful program.In science there is always a large body of knowledge specialism andtechnical/hypothetical/experimentalexpertise which takes its participantsaway from the world we know and can relate to and live in.However they haveto communicate to us universal everymans in our language in our time in our world and it is this interface that breaks down. Maybe we should lookat this and understand it. Dr Johnsonkicked stones to prove the existenceof the material world. However Schrodinger's Cat is a thought experiment. We know cats cannot both be living and dead although you can call one Chairman Miaou. In modern physics you can posit hypotheses thatare not testable and don't seem to have to be tested by physical laws.String Theory and the many worldshypothesis kind of leave me cold. I can't relate to it in the world I live in,it has no meaning for me,therefore how can we expect experts to communicate a subject they can only talk to amongst themselves but who havethought-block and become tongue-tiedwhen they try and communicate to anaudience. Indeed Melvyn in his confusedstate and gallant attempts to summariseand understand this abstruse worldjust sums it all up even more.The difference of the mind from the brain,between the physical entity and the mental objects it generates mayunderline my worries.Incidentally Melvyn,could we look at Phenomenologyspecifically as drawn by Merleau-Ponty?

William Makepeace-Measurement theory
At last I now understand how my wife finds "things" when I can't. She's working on the macro level. My particles are somewhere else-moved because they know I'm looking for them.Thanks measurement theory and thanks for the programmes.

Peter Moore: The Measurement Problem
I sympathise enormously with those listeners who wanted to get a handle on this but found the discussion too technical. I am a recently retired teacher of A-level physics so although I could broadly follow and often recognise what was being said, I winced time and again when the academics blithely threw various esoteric concepts and technical terms into the discussion without a thought for the intelligent lay audience. Surely, In Our Time needs to connect with these listeners and I do commend Melvyn Bragg for several times intervening with explanatory notes which were far more effective than the contributions of the experts. To the physics enthusiasts, I would say that the programme is not really meant for you and I feel sure that most lay people would have switched off, either mentally or physically, long before the end. The best contributors, I feel, would be those with a track record of communicating these admittedly challenging ideas. People like Simon Singh, Jim Al-Khalili, John Gribbin, Paul Davies and others have shown that it can be done.

In Our Time - Measurement in Physics
An interesting programme, but I think it should have been mentioned very early on in the discussion, that the Schroedinger's cat experiment was a 'thought' experiment and that no real or living cats were involved!

Alan Logsdail 'The Waste Land'
My first visit to The Waste Land was rather unusual now I come to think of it. At the end of 1947 when I was approaching the end of my time in the Royal Navy and was serving in a frigate, part of the reserve fleet at Harwich. I read, in the Admiralty Fleet Orders, which were posted on the ship's noticeboard, of a residential course on Modern English Literature to be held at Holly Royde College, part of the extra-mural dept. of Manchester University. As it was open to all ranks (including my very lowly one) I decided to apply. My request had to go first to my Divisional Officer, a young lieutenant. He thought it a wheeze and also decided to apply. The captain approved his application but not mine, no doubt because officers and 'other ranks' didn't mix socially. The cox,n intervened on my behalf and a solution was found. My demob was brought forward a little so that I could attend as a civilian at the start of my 56 days demob leave! There were about 30 of us from all 3 services and our main topic was Eliot's masterpiece. much of which has stuck in my memory ever since. Our teachers were from the University and also from Manchester Grammar School. We had a great time and finished with a party with invited guests with whom we played 'sardines'.

Val Stacey, Derbyshire - The Measurement Problem
I felt all through the programme that the coverage was too wide - on a very rare occasion maybe 2-3 programmes could address an issue (I know this goes against your normal format0 with related issues in the 2 previous weeks - so for instance a prog on Einstein and a prog on Physics - what is it? what is its history etc - so that I might have had SOME chance of following this week's programme. I was flummoxed. I know that Einstein was covered several years ago, but maybe a different angle ........Meanwhile, I love the programme AND the newsletter, including the specs.

James Scott. Quantum Science
Really enjoyable. Always amazed that the speakers can fit so much into such a short time and Melvyn as Everyman can ask and say what I might if there. I sometimes get lost in the middle but usually tape it and replay later. The expansion of our possibilities is interesting and challenging at the same time. Really enjoyable programme

New Program Idea - continuation from Schrödinger e
Suggestion for future program:Programme on Schrödinger's moggies etc.was very thought-provoking. Time for some serious re-thinking of our views of reality.The physics and mathematics of Musicial Tuning.e.g. Helmhotlz, Pythagorean, Mercator, Harrison, Just Intonation, Meantone, LucyTuning etc.

Ben. Measurement Problem
Somewhere it was written on the board here, that ..."classical’ type matter does not, and never has, existed."It may be helpful to re-phrase the statement to be more accurate, and in-line with advance Madhyamaka thinking and/or ZEN thinking Closer to this line of thinking might be:..."classical' type matter does not, and never has, existed, from it's own side as it seems to appear; But IT DOES EXIST. As an imputation of the mind." The huge confusion is that people misunderstand the ZEN MASTER or Buddhist Master's statement that nothing exists as saying Nothing exists. This is muddled. The statement is used to "loosen our hold on phenomena in the real world as being too static and unflexable."That flat out statement that nothing exists is just mental training to aid in cognitive pliability.Later the student will come back to how things actually do exist but not in the way we thought they did. Even the Buddhist Particle Physicists knows the tremendous value of Quantum MechanicsWarm RegardsBen.PS. Nagarjuna:"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata (Buddha) teaches the Dhamma (teaching on reality) via the middle..(way)"

John B - The Measurement Problem In Physics
Dear I.O.T. needed more time on this subject. I humbly suggest the following knowing that Lord Bragg understands this far better than I already.With a subject like this one it's helpful to have a rehearsal run through with a test audience. But not an audience with physics or advanced maths degrees. It's not necessary.All analogies used by the panel to explain the subject should get feed back from that test audience or group so that the Professors can tweak there analogies. It's win/win this way.Pacing the show and staying on topic and in areas of interest to that test audience will help. Don't Rush.One or two practice run throughs with the test audience with fix most all confusion. Get feedback, take notes and redo that part that was not understood.Stay on a line that takes us slowely from the very small quarks, to electrons, to atoms, to molecules, and continues in increments until we reach macroscopic objects. Tell us how objects or fields or waves start to behave or change in nature at each size increment. When do things start to go from Quantum to Newtonian. During this size journey you can bring in all the interesting findings and famous landmarks and discoveries. Use analogues well. Test them. Connect the dots with the test audience.What are some of the uses of quantum theory the real world? Please Share.I believe given the subject and importance of the subject that the esteemed scientists and Penrose would be glad to put in time to do the think-tank/study group/rehearsal with the test Audience.Enlighten us about Quantum QuackeryAvoid the jazzing it up. This is a subject that covers the very essense of the universe and the very essese of life and matter EVERYWHERE.Finally, don't just follow my opinion but go see what aspects others don't understand and would like illuminated.Penrose is correct that the theory is incomplete or we may need another Einstein to re-work the issues.IF so then what is happening in the field now? Any new direction would be standing on the shoulders of giants, so no scientist should fear to go there just because the current maths and paradigms are comfortable and 60 years in the making.Apologies for being an Arm Chair Quarterback. Good Luck and Well done!Many I've talked to really enjoy this topic. But it's so hard to find a good show that puts it all together very well. Please Get Penrose back. He is a brilliant brilliant Professor and Scientist!Very Best,John B.

keith farman
It is curious that scientists who accept the inability of classical Newtonian science to account for Quantum phenomena are drawn to 19th century philosophy to try to address the perplexing questions it poses: they are drawn to ontology and reification whether of cats or things; with qualities and dualisms etc etc. Yet the very 20th century philosophy that irritates them most, has struggled with issues with striking parallels with the perplexing questions of post-quantum science. 20th century philosophy began with the statement that "the world is all that is the case, the totality of facts not things." The shift of emphasis in philosophy from what it is for something to be TRUE to what it is for something to MAKE SENSE is paralleled in post-quantum physics where the problem is not what is out 'there' but how what is there can be meaningfully DESCRIBED. Don't give up Melvyn - you are the ONLY person I know who has successfully forced scientists to think as carefully about how they DESCRIBE their ideas as they do about the physical phenomena that interests them. Integrating macro relativity with quantum theory is not the holy grail of science - making sense of consciousness and human intentionality is. And they won't make sense of that until more scientists read and understand more serious post-Wittgensteinian philosophy. The ignorance of many scientists about philosophy seriuously undermines THEIR SCIENCE.

Gerry Coombes: The Measurement Problem in Physics
The proper interpretation of quantum mechanics (QM) has taxed some of the greatest minds in mathematics and physics for decades. There is no firm consensus on the horizon, as was well illustrated in this morning's programme. It was somewhat amusing to hear three very high powered academics picking holes in each others' points of view (Schrodinger's spat). Is this something that happens often on IOT? The collapse of the wave function, the cat problem, many worlds, hidden variables et cetera, are important historically, but I found the attempts by Melvyn's guests to explain them on air disconcerting. This inability to explain QM in simple terms is the real `mystery'. Bohr said that anyone who is not shocked by quantum mechanics has not understood it. Richard Feynman was fairly sure that no one understood quantum mechanics. If none of the interpretations they discussed `work' then the Profs (who else?) should find better ones, or perhaps consider the possibility that they don't exist (as in trying to explain consciousness.) The discussion made no move beyond the old stereotypes. No mention of the environment, of decoherence, nor of consistent histories. More time is needed to explore this hugely important but badly neglected subject (QM) but not if it's going to turn people's radios off in droves.

Steven Ring - Measurement problem
Interesting program thank you, but please, could we hear the same great minds talking about just one intriguing subject? I would like to hear their opinions about the nature of 'space-time', what Albert Einstein meant when he said that it could be 'curved' and whether space-time has any place in our current understanding of physical phenomena at microscopic and macroscopic scales.

Chris Mirfin: "The Measurement Problem In Physics"
Unfortunate that the experts were not allowed to speak freely in this episode. However, I am pleased if any physics related programmes are still available since the decline of Horizon. I think this episode concentrated to much on Schrondinger's Cat and the 'wavefunction.' As the wavefunction is expressed in terms of complex numbers it doesn't appear to us from our 3D viewpoint. I think an inclusion from the work of Feynman would have been helpful, treating quantum entities as particles that choose every path available until, QED, as this is the most successful and accurate part of physics

Vin Sherlock-The Measurement Problems in Physics
I don't understand why people think that the multi-universe hypothesis is troubled by the fact that bizarre outcomes are not visible here as long as they are seen "somewhere else."This might also explain why parts of the wave form function are not "realizable" here.The fact that "later" states become "seeable" with the mathematics should help to confirm this.The distance between the two states MIGHT go toward explaining various epiphenomena which have been reported.

Paulpic Newton the alchemist
The amatuer level explanation of why particles act like waves often seems to get entangled with the odd mathmatics of how waves work. I suppose that's what you get when your starting point is an alchemist, like Newton. Smoke and mirrors in -- smoke and mirrors out.

Tom Milner-Gulland - Measurement Problem
The thought experiment of Schrodinger's Cat makes a valiant, but failed attempt to be commonsensical and to be rid of preconceptions about quantum uncertainty. Its flaw, however, resides in the necessity for the presence of a detector: the particle may be irradiated, but any *single* such particle may or may not be detected. The two-slit experiment should point us all back to territory we should never abandoned: Kant. A physicist can deceive himself into the belief that he is releasing single, independent particles of light. But the interference pattern will show that each responds conformally to the effects of others released at different times and/or which pass through a different slit. The interference pattern is thus an expression of particle activity as a function of space and time, and we should conclude that space and time are mere subjectively imposed orderings; and, further, that energy - itself bound into space and time - transcends physics. (The point is made even more emphatically by the results of the 1982 Aspect team experiments; and it's been powerful enough to have made the rugby player Johnny Wilkinson - among others - turn to Buddhism; also, it was a major contributor to my 1997 thesis that all paradoxes of measurement may be traced to the incommensurability inherent in the axial relations that we conceive as dimensionality.) As regards the many worlds problem, it seems that it was the original proponent of the theory who quietly decided that quantum events have one of only two (or indeed some finite number of) outcomes. The Schrodinger's Cat problem is specifically designed to isolate only two outcomes, so conclusions drawn from it do not address the full picture.

Measurment Problem
For the first time I listen to In Our Time and thought it confusing, disjointed and as I missed the first few minutes was surprised to see on the site that it was about 'The Measurement Problem'. No doubt fine brains but they seemed confused between trying to explain to the audience and debate between themselves. The later of which won out most of the time.A debate can be educational to listen to but not when you have no idea of some of the references. The one attempt at an explanatory analogy (snooker) was stopped by Melvyn. Great teachers can make the incredibly complex simpler to grasp (e.g. the recent Horizon on Time Measurement, which was back to treating the audience as intelligent). This mornings experts complicated the discussion by constantly bringing in things that they (and no doubt a very few in the audience) understood but had not been explained.I think you ought to have another go at this one.

Viv Pope: 'The Measurement Problem in Physics
To Melvyn Bragg,Re, ‘In Our Time’,After listening to your very interesting item on BBC 4 this morning, I am prompted to make the following observation. Talking about the ‘problem’ of how to reconcile the world of the quantum with that of ordinary reality, the answer, surely, is very simple. In relativity, distant interaction takes place at speeds up to that of the absolute limit ‘c, the so-called constant speed of light in the vacuum. By contrast, in the quantum domain interactions take place instantly, This seems like a paradox, that relativistic and quantum physics do not gel. However, there is no such paradox. Quantum instantaneity and the limit c are just different aspects of the same interaction. When two atoms interact, a quantum of interaction (action) is transferred from the one to the other. According to the relativistic time equation, in its own intrinsic, or ‘proper’ time, that interaction is instantaneous But according to that same equation, that same interaction, takes place at the relative, or observer rate c. Both those rates are parts of the same equation..So there simply is no ‘paradox’, no mysterious ‘problem’ to be solved. The quantum microworld is ‘Newtonian’ and the relative, or observational, macroworld is ‘Einsteinian’. These are not two different worlds; they are no more than different aspects of the same world, like the ‘heads and tails of the same coin.As Penrose stated in the programme, quantum interaction is instantaneous, regardless of distance, In that case, there is no time-delay between the beginning and end of the interaction, which means that the two ‘ends’ of the interaction are one and the same event. A natural model for this is the familiar video drama in which all the dimensions of the video scenario are projected by the viewer out of patterns and sequences of virtually instantaneous screen pixels, which do not move in any sense but simply occur. This well-understood commonsense phenomenon presents no strange ‘paradox’ or ‘epistemological problem’, so why should quantum theory, which works on the same principle, do so? What it requires is simply a whole new mindset on the part of modern physics, away from lingering Cartesian dualism towards Machian monism – or ‘phenomenalism’ as it is sometimes called. This is as described on the internet (see ‘POAMS, the Neo-Machian Digital Physics’ website.Thanks again for your very interesting and stimulating programme.N. V. (Viv) Pope.

graham smetham - measurement problem
This morning’s discussion did not seem to be `in our time` at all, in fact it was `out of our time` by about fifty years. The discussion exhibited a refusal to consider seriously the now inescapable conclusion that quantum physics clearly indicates that what we think of as an independent material reality is actually a creation, at a deep unconscious intersubjective level, by Mind. This was actually the conclusion that was reached by all the great founding quantum physicists. For instance in 1944 the historical founder of quantum theory Max Planck, said in a lecture that:All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter.Schroedinger formulated a similar insight:Mind has erected the objective outside world … out of its own stuff. More recently the respected physicist Henry Stapp, in his meticulous analysis of the quantum evidence Mind, Matter and Quantum Mechanics writes that:There is, in fact, in the quantum universe no natural place for matter. Even more recently (2006) quantum physicists Bruce Rosenblum and Fred Kuttner, in their book Quantum Enigma, conclude that: …physics’ encounter with consciousness, demonstrated for the small, applies to everything. And that ‘everything’ can include the entire Universe. I could add many more quotes like this because I have access to them in my book ‘Dancing in Emptiness: Reality Revealed at the Interface of Quantum Physics and Buddhist Philosophy’ which I have just completed after eight years full time intensive research. When one investigates the subject with clarity and precision it is impossible, unless one is guided by a preformed prejudice that there must be an independent material-like reality, not to reach the same conclusion that the Buddhist philosophers came to a least a thousand years (and probably more like two thousand years) before the advent of the quantum conundrum in Western physics:Nothing, such as atoms and so on, exist externally,As anything other than cognition.This is clearly echoed by many assertions within really current thinking about the necessary implications of quantum physics such as the following by quantum physicist Dieter Zeh: …quantum states, by their very nature share an epistemological and ontological role - are simultaneously a description of the state, and the ‘dream stuff is made of.’ One might say that they are epiontic. These two aspects may seem contradictory, but at least in the quantum setting, there is a union of these two functions. By ‘epiontic’, of course, Zeh precisely means that the epistemological process of cognition produces the ontology. This is a view shared by Henry Stapp, a highly regarded physicist who discussed these matters with Heisenberg and worked with Bohm. His very precise and tightly argued views, I note, were not included in the discussion.In the research for my book I have had to study Penrose at great depth and the clarity and insight of his exposition is faultless, until that is, we come to the possibility that consciousness is the ultimate nature of reality and that the ‘collapse of the wavefunction’ is an event mediated by the functioning of consciousness. Reading his, strangely very aptly titled, works ‘Emperor’s New Mind’ and ‘Shadows of the Mind’ it is impossible not to get the image of someone searching for a concrete reality where all he finds Is, well, ‘shadows of the mind!’ Penrose, however, advances no serious arguments for his dismissal of the view that the universe is at the fundamental level a process of mind or consciousness beyond the observation that high level individualised consciousnesses appear to be rare within it. This may be the case but it does not stand as counterweight to the all the evidence which now stands in favour of the view that ‘classical’ type matter does not, and never has, existed. But for Penrose, as for Dr. Johnson, anything which is caused by mind cannot be ‘really

David Barnett, Ph.D. - Quantum Measurement Problem

The "Many Worlds" interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is more complete than Roger Penrose suggested. Nobel Laureate, Murray Gellman prefers to call it "Many Histories" theory.

How can we link Quantum "Wave Mechanics" to the Classical Mechanics of Newton?

There is a way of formulating Classical Mechanics in terms of a quantity called the "action". A classical system, [billiard ball, say] follows a path which minimizes the "action". This is called Hamilton's Principle. The key thing about a Classical path, is that if you examine other [fictitious] paths nearby, the "action" hardly changes at all.

In quantum mechanics, we have to sum up contributions of waves following many possible paths. It turns out that the "action" of a path divided by Planck's constant gives you the quantity of wave oscillations [or "phase"] for that path. If, at a point, the contributions all differ by a whole number of waves, they will move in step and reinforce strongly. If they differ by half a wave, they will cancel.

Classical paths and their near neighbours all have the same action and, therefor, the same number of wavelengths, so are reinforced strongly. Deviations from the classical paths tend to cancel each other out, so we rarely see them.

The above description is known as the "path integral" formulation, proposed by Feynman in the late 1940's.

Gellman brought my attention to a brilliant paper in which Neville Mott had elucidated the point in 1929 - 20 years before "path integrals". It is so beautifully written that a first year undergraduate could read it, and it surprises me that one never hears of it in Quantum Mechanics courses.

Mott analysed a "Cloud Chamber" which was used to see the tracks of alpha particles emitted by radioactive atoms. The Schrodinger wave is spherically expanding - rather like the ripples from a stone thrown into a pond. Yet what we see are distinct tracks - vapour trails like those of an aeroplane. Mott showed that once you have one ionization encounter giving you a droplet in the vapour trail, the overwhelming probability is that the next one will be in a straight line with it.

In sum, we [and cats], seem classical because waves deviating significantly from the classical path cancel out strongly. In this view, the quantum wave is the reality, but we are sitting on a particular bit of it and interpreting what we see classically.

SCHODRINGER' CAT
Im a prof lyricist.....:))) just a whisker away from the truth of the matter...........NOT! CATSV1At just what speedOr where is it atThe when and whereOf Schrodringer’s CatV2Is it one or severalThe mystery continuesAnd is the universeEchoing to its miew-ewsBridgeIs what we see the whole eventOr simply just a ruseI listened hard, carefullyBut to be truthfulI’m still confusedGreat Programme, as usual, Mr Bragg, thank you (I am seriously interested in the topic of Quantum........and will finish the lyric too!)RgdsRoger A Carter

Richard Hull The Problem With The Measurement Pro
Shame the discussion did not mention Randall Mills' Hydrino Theory. This disputes many of the assumptions made by the participants, and would seem to be justified by the experimental evidence emerging from Blacklight Power, Inc. Hugely controversial, heavily contested, but immensely important for future sustainable energy production, if true.

RH: The Measurement Problem in Physics
A poor title for a programme that thankfully never got anywhere near its subject. You rather messed this one up, Melvyn. You had there some of the most brilliant minds in physics and you insisted they ramble on about drab stuff like Schrodinger's cat. They sounded dry-mouthed and nervous when they could have been speaking about their current specialisms. Physics is at a serious crunch point with string theory apparently having taken us up a cul-de-sac over the past 30 years and hopefully a revolution in thinking on our doorstep. Opportunity missed I feel.

John - Measurement Problem In Physics
It's just impossible to do this subject in 40 minutes. It could have been done in 2 or 3 episodes, like the Darwin Series was done. This subject is probably one of the greatest mysteries and most interesting subjects in all of Physics and deserves more In Our Time Attention.Well done for trying to even cover the terminology in 40 minutes. One does not need to be a physics professor to get this stuff at the basic level. One does need a multi-part series, and Lord Bragg along with his excellent panel of experts will pull it off if given more time.40 short minutes wont get you there.very best,John.Give it another 3 part go, and hopefully soon!

John Wykes - The Measurement Problem
It is a great shame that more time was not spent on the recent advances in understanding of the emergence of the 'classical' behaviour of macroscopic objects from the purely deterministic world of unitary quantum mechanics (generally referred to as the Schrodinger equation world on the programme). Only the very last sentence by Simon Saunders, mentioned that much of the work of the last twenty years has shown that larger collections of microscopic particles, when fully treated using the quantum equations, yield the 'decoupled' properties we see in large objects. These results are not really an 'interpretation' about which there can be differing opinions - they are firm results of the quantum equations when applied to larger ensembles than originally considered by the founders of the various interpretations. If more time had been given to the recent major advances in the field of quantum information, such as quantum computing and quantum cryptography, then the reality of the wave function at the microscopic level and the manner in which the classical properties of large objects emerge (something one is trying to prevent in these two fields) would have been made clearer to the audience.Thus, for example, we now know that the reason we don't see Schrodinger cats in superposition states of life and death is that any object, as large as even a single cell, has its superposition properties almost instantaneously dissipated by the multitude of interactions with the smaller particles of its environment, e.g. photons of light and air molecules, which are continually colliding with it. The mysterious 'entangling' nature of quantum collisions actually results in the dissipation of certain parts of the quantum information and the coherent survival of other parts. It is precisely the classical information that we are so used to that survives in a robust way which explains why that is the information we successfully pick up in our everyday world.It is beginning to seem likely that the probabilistic feature, that appeared to be introduced by the measurement process, actually arises because we fail to capture those bits of the information that have been dissipated away in the interactions of larger objects with their microscopic environment. If we could capture the entire environment that has interacted with our particles, we could recover the quantum properties. Thus it is not that we introduce probabilities by measuring, rather we introduce them by not measuring enough!

Frank Costello - The Measurement Problem in Physic
All very interesting from a historical perspective yet it was symptomatic of the state of current physics to have to listen to three such eminent professors thrashing blindly about trying to explain to the layman what is clearly an obscure subject - or so they made it appear.Anyway what they were discussing is 'old hat' since the advent of Tempo Field Theory which plausably explains Penrose's "Missing Physics. Here the wave hypothesis is an essential element in the theory answering key questions between the quantum and the cosmic, the micro and the macro. It is an unfortunate feature of science that practising physicists seem unable to think outside the box and grasp the wholeness of this theory.

Craig Sawyers - THE MEASUREMENT PROBLEM IN PHYSICS
Another excellent programme, with classically educated Bragg getting to grips with a subject well outside his comfort zone.An excellent group of experts too. I have the highest regard for Roger Penrose in particular, who although a mathematician and theoretical physicist of the highest order, has got to grips with more human subjects such as conciousness: what he terms "the missing science of conciousness".That quantum physics is still, after 80 years, mysterious, is an amazing fact. I wish I could find my copy of Feynman's "Character of Physical Law", written in 1967, because I am probably going to either misquote, or fuse several quotations into one:"If anyone tells you that they understand quantum mechanics, they are lying - no-one understands this stuff".Feyman was of course one of the foremost mathematical physicists of his day, with a Nobel Prize for his work on Quantum Electrodynamics. I'd have loved to hear him on this week's "In Our Time"!Craig Sawyers

Jeremy O'Connor (UK) - Measurement problem-physic
Its just possible that all the physics will need to be done again. For context, Kepler's theory of platonic solids describing and explaining the motion of the planets was just about good enough, but he was not happy with the way the maths did not always support his observations (or vice versa) he dropped his own theory. We all quite agree, in the light of Newtonian physics. So, looking at today's debate on the programme, we have this break between 'macro' and 'quantum' reality where the maths and the observations do not support a unifiable theory. History suggests that we are on the verge of realising that we have been pursuing another ridiculous model. Reflecting on the paradox of observation affecting the observed phenomena: Could it be that whilst we are ready to understand that things don't behave like snooker balls at the qauntum level, we vainly hope to observe them as though they were, with sensors that expect to see nice electromagnetic particles or waves at the time and place we expect them, or other particles with other more exotic sensors. Why should effects of phenomena always happen in the nice tidy set of 4 dimensions that we are comfortable with? Our whole model for observation seems a tad like an astrolabe.

Colin D. Brooking - surveying
An excellent follow through from an earlier Jaipur edition. Some mention of Mary and John Gribben with a publication, 'The Men who measured the Universe'....just expanding with kind regards.

Roy Barton MEASUREMENT PROBLEM IN PHYSICS Schrödin
OK who was it that killed that cat with the billiard ball? I am definitely going to report this to the RSPCA.As regards the "Many-worlds" I much prefer my own.

David Humphrey - Measurement Problem
Surely if you used an egg timer triggered by the quantum event (instead of the cat)you would see when the event occurred ie upon the box opening or during the time it was closed.

Quantum Theory
"Des' WC.Solution" - I've finally achieved a break-through while listening to the programme on Quantumm Physica this morning while sitting on the lavatory and operating the "Hangman" option in a pocket Thesaurus. One only understands by thinking of something else at the same time!

Susie Govett - The Measurement of Mathematics
I joined the programme half way through (probably not the best start) but thought the content and discussion far too technical. Perhaps it would be better suited to late at night as an aid to insomniacs...

Allan Morgan - Measurement Problem
Animal rights slogan:SAVE HALF OF SCHRÖDINGER'S CAT!

C. Davies - quantum physics
It took about 10 minutes for me to become utterly lost - is a degree in physics essential to understand this program or is it just me? Perhaps I should try the schools programs in the hope that Johnny Ball could explain it...

Rod Kibble Wasteland
The contributors were puzzled by the sequence of empty sexual encounters that emerge throughout the poem. Surely that was Eliot's point? Erotic love reduced to lust is part of the wasteland in a culture questioning its traditions. A mechanical love making is symptomatic of a mechanical fragmented world.

The Wasteland
Some good comments this week. In 'The Wasteland', Eliot had the talent to 'offload' elegantly and his words were taken up by a publisher, helping him carve his way on the literary path. It's one way of doing things. I wonder how much of a culture's artistic output is about the personal expression of an individual and how much about the accreted (spell check doesn't like that word but it'll do) and allotted role of the arts in a society or the employment of critics or, in this case, remuneration for the publisher and published or even the (somewhat) vicarious involvement of the intellectuals...those who can do do, those who can't.....I don't mean that in a derogatory sense but again, in relation to the expression of the individual. Many intellectuals delight in artistic talent which they can relate to in their more cerebral way. Also, the receptivity and reflectiveness of the various echelons of consensus in the mass of people which decide many a talent's fate. Shakespeare we simply couldn't have overlooked but when it comes to 'The Wasteland' and some of Eliot's other writing, I personally find myself in the borderland where there aren't the wings to either carry me above or cut through to the absolute core of the mundane. Know what I mean? I can appreciate Eliot's talent and I can relate (all too easily!) to the words, but for me, they don't somehow have power beyond themselves which the best art does - it empowers you through its ability to artistically or politically or emotionally etc. hit the nail on the head one way or another. Eliot's words enter my body intellectually but there isn't that instant 'hit' in my heart or my viscera which recognizes something it feels to be profoundly so. Maybe it's a case of 'one man's meat....' or have I possibly missed some of his best work?. I'm looking forward to tomorrow's programme on measurement. Thanks fellow 'commenters' and best wishes.

Heather Bradford The Wasteland
This was a brilliant programme. It's a tough poem - baffling and deeply melancholic.Thoroughly enjoyed the broadcast's treatment of it.

Jan-Willem (NL) - nationalities
I have become addicted to this programme, and have still a long way to go before I exhaust the archive. One remark: you do not seem to be very careful with nationalities. Accusing the Bernouilli family of mathematicians of being Belgian (they were Swiss), and astronomer Jan Oort of being Danish (he was Dutch). Since none of your guests corrected you, I thought I'd do. ;-)

Elizabeth Roberts The Waste Land
I see I am not alone in commenting that Eliot's search for religion underlies and explains The Waste Land. Can we broaden this discussion into how it is that on air such a group failed to mention Christianity at all? Is it the last taboo for intellectuals - even if one or more are believers?

Fred Holland 'The Waste Land'
Alas, a very inadequate programme. The first ten minutes were taken up with waffle on 'the cultural context' like three surgeons talking about the hairstyle of a man with brain tumour. The work of any major artist - indeed any artist - proceeds from his personal problems. We learn by the way he deals with them, and sometimes that universality appears as impersonality.There was no mention of his personal problems and I'm sure this was deliberate, perhaps from a misguided sense on the part of Melyvn Bragg that they were not relevant, or perhaps even because the BBC wish to keep sweet with Eliot's widow. Eliot was torn by his personal problems: Verdenal, the French doctor whom he loved and who died at Gallipoli, his disasterous first marriage, Bertrand Russel who provided im with a financial cushion while seducing his wife; etc, etc. At no time was there any analysis of these influences on the poem. What was the devastaion of the Waste Land but the devastaion of his own life made into art? Elsewhere Eliot remarks, in his essay on 'In Memoriam'on the conjunction of 'public themes' and private interests - how they overlap, converege, coalesce. In this programme nothing was teased out or weighed, yet I'm sure at least one of the participants, given his head, was capable of it.There are occasions when Melvyn Bragg who performs a great public service in a difficult role becomes too contolling (and I recommend anyone to listen to the superb progamme on the French Revolution, 'The Reign of Terror'when three brilliant contributors almost escaped, and he was forced to run after them like an irate parent.)Perhaps the trouble is, every literate person thinks themself an expert on 'literature' (vide those dreadful programmes, 'A Good Read' and 'Open Book'), but in fact it is more than that, it goes back to the absence of real critical standards based on the ultimate values of life and death. We have all noted the temporary assertion of tragic sanity into political life by the death of David Cameron's son. Is the comparison far-fetched? No. The Waste Land is a great poem born of pain and suffering, and Eliot, a greater critic than any of the participants, knew its shortcomings - and even more, his own failings - none of which were mentioned. He, and it, and we ourselves, deserved better.

piers jessop 'the wasteland'
i recall a radio four programme of some twnety years ago in which i believe stephen spender discussed eliot. he reported that while having lunch with the latter in a soho restaurant he posed the question 'is 'the wasteland' about the breakdown of civilisation?' to which eliot replied 'yes'. asked how this would come about, eliot further replied, 'internecine warfare'. i was surprised this was not mentioned on an otherwise wonderful programme.

George Dobson. The Jaipur Observatory.
Thanks to the podcast I can listen to a broadcast that I failed to hear on a Thursday, but it often means that I am late with any comments. However the observatory has been there a long time so a week or twos delay should not matter. How did the structure function? What was the purpose of the "staircase to the sky"? Does everyone know these things expect me and there is therefore no need to explain them?

Peter Household - Jaipur, Orientalism
Perhaps “mindless and politically correct use of Said’s concept of ‘Orientalism’” (Christopher Maycock below) does occur somewhere and sometimes. But did it occur in this episode? The Europeans looked at the observatory and concluded that whilst it was heir to a long tradition of Indian astronomy it lagged behind contemporary European knowledge and practice; a conclusion which inflated the British confidence in their imperial mission. The guests who have studied the sources considered this a fair interpretation of the facts. Whether it is a really is a fair interpretation, is something we can all judge, if we have the time to study the sources for ourselves. peterhousehold@yahoo.co.uk

Christopher Eckett
Dear Team,I doubt if any other radio programme around the globe dares to take on a brief comparable to that of „in our time“.As if the incredible specialist advances in knowledge and culture since the Renaissance were a bagatelle, your programme takes on all comers and endeavours to encourage it´s listeners to take a similar attitude. The result is both empowering and edifying.I have particularly enjoyed “Miracles - will they never cease?”, “The Nicene Creed - when Christ became God”, “Heaven - a journey through the afterlife”, “Zoroastrianism - was the religion of the Persian Empire the first monotheism?”, “Witchcraft - Reformation Europe turned upon itself”, “The Devil - a brief biography” and “The Apocalypse - was it a revelation?” as well as a host of the scientific programmes. In fact nothing really bored me at all- Excellent experts superb moderation.Subjects that would I would personally most appreciate future programmes touching on include:1. The relationships between the Old Testament and Babylonian and or other ancient mythologies (Egyptian/ Canaanite)2. All attempts at explaining current ideas about quantum physics and the nature of time (I know this is often touched on but it`s mind boggling)3. Dead Sea Scrolls and the theories of Robert Eisenmann (early church/ Apostle Paul)4. Sir John Soane5. Understanding the new testament from a Jewish background6. 20th. Century occultism (Blavatsky, Golden Dawn etc.)7. Free Masonry8. What the heck, everything that the team comes up with from Goethe to Isis with Tesla and economics thrown in!The Download Archive is a wonderful resource, a kind of Open University for people who enjoy switching on their Grey Cells, an incredible intellectual luxury – Please keep it up!

Pete Bailey Waste Land
Another great programme. So refreshing to hear that it's a waste of time looking for coherence in there. Had to study it at school and hated every minute of it. Thanks Melvin for asking the question I always wanted an answer for - why write something which only half a percent of the people will get, not speaking Latin, German or Twoddle fluently. Might as well compose music in a key only dogs and bats can hear. So if there's no meaning to it the only question is "do I like it?" A resounding "No". Dull dead end indeed. The Emperor has no clothes.

The Waste Land
The Wasteland is a poem that has been severely edited by the ‘superiorcraftsman’ Pound. We have a poem in 5 sections in free verse, freighted witherudition, literary allusions, quotations, cribbing lines from old poems, Dante,Shakespeare, Spenser, Marvell, Goldsmith, Baudelaire, Wagner, Nerval,Augustine and Buddha. We know Eliot had had a breakdown and had taken leave from work when he wrote The Waste Land. There is a merging of the personal and political. With Eliot’s desire to escape from his personality through detachment in his work so he can depict impersonality. The technique where variations of mental state are depicted through various personae and voices is radically experimental. We have a fractured narrative, changing voices and tonal shifts and we cannot identify who the voices are: who ‘we’ ‘us’ or ‘I’ is.We need toremember Eliot is a major dramatic poet(cf. Sweeney Agonistes)using dramatic monologue, dramatic meditation, striving to grasp ametaphysical condition that could be called religious in a world that knewnothing of it at a time when Eliot was non-Christian. He draws on the mythicalmethod he admires in Ulysses but the result is incoherent and messy. We alsoget voices from the music-hall, like the Victorian novel, a dying form with the rise of cinema,Eliot doing a 'turn'. What unifies everything is the subtle music of the soul, a passive undriven music of Eliot’s best poetry. As Leavis said:" The unity the poem aims at is that of an inclusive consciousness: the organisation it achieves as a work of art is…an organization that may, byanalogy, be called musical”. Poetry to Eliot approximates to the experienceof listening to music. The notes, the intellectual apparatus, the references, the allusions, need to be dropped to appreciate this poem. He said poetry could communicate even before it was understood. Beautiful poem that it is, I tendto agree with Fran Bearton’s contention that Yeats, holding to traditional forms has, in the long run, in the 20th century, been much more influential.

Petrina Blair. THe Waste land
This was fantastic and I have now reread this poem with so more understanding, Elliot does a great reading of it on a CD produced by HarperCollins, very musical. It is a great aural poem, just like Shakespeare. Great programme. !

A.Reiss - The Waste Land and Modernity
Thank you for discussing the poem, I reread it last night with great pleasure. There is a poem by Charles Elton "Luriana Lurilee"; to me Eliot's "singing" follows Elton's."Weialala leia / Wallala leialala""Luriana, Lurilee." - just the crudest example, or am I tone deaf? I am a foreigner as well.

Jenny Eastwood
Could someone please give me the title and details of the 'pre Ezra Pound edited' version of 'The Wasteland'?

Dave Parsons The wasteland
I am interested to know why the poem is classified as modern. I suggest it fits many characteristics accepted as post-modern. The end of te grand tradition (narrative and a coherent comprehensible structure and subject matter). In architecture modernism is functionalism, coherence and lack of gratuitous ornament. Post modernism can mix styles and include decoration for the sake of style. This seemed to match The Wasteland with a wild mix from classical allusions, Shakespear to musichall and a very obscureoverall coherence. Is the term modern simply related to the year it was produced?

Thomas Mannix
Melvyn, I have been in contact with you before now. I live near Listowel. This is J.B. Keane territory.May I suggest that you would answer for me 'What is a new moon?' 'What is first quarter and what is second quarter?' 'Why are they facing in opposite directions?' Put a team together that would be able to answer questions like this about the moon and its activities. 'What is the truth about the wise men and the guidance they received in following the moon?' Thank you. I enjoy your newsletter every week. Yours sincerely, Tom.

theresa 'The Waste Land'
Thank you. I didn't hear it all but the parts I managed to listen to I found fascinating. I was especially glad to hear one of the group refer to William James and reality. This will be useful to me as I am working on a dissertation on 'Religious Experience.' If I can bring in some poetry, albeit obscure,that will re-inspire me. I love many of the programmes, especially those of a philosophical nature, Boethius etc.Thanks, Melvyn.Theresa

John Clements- T S Elliot - The Waste land and mod
I am not a university graduate but I shall be graduating in the university of life in the next few years. I take an interest in most topics and I must admit that I continue to be confused over the interpretations and analysis of poems. I always thought that poetry was a literary genre that gathered together the form and structure of the language, with rhythms and rhyme, alliteration and associations etc, etc. The game that seems to be played is to second guess what the poet had in mind. There are endless hours of discussion, and each generation seem to come up with a different slant on the poem under discussion . Take for example today’s analysis of T S Elliot’s poem “The waste land and Modernity” There were three “Experts” and Melvyn to conduct the discussion. I listened with some concentration but the overall general impression was the subject of the poem was enclosed by the “experts “ and that none of the meaning of the poem escaped to the outside listener. In the pre amble it was stated that this poem had a great influence on the modern world. Did he really influenced it or would it have happened anyway? Are these poets trying to tell us something? Are the experts trying to explain the meaning of the poem? If so why do they couch their message in such convoluted language. Are these sort of poems only for the so called intellectuals? I must say that after I have found and read a poem that I have enjoyed, my enjoyment can be spoiled by some ones analysis that contradicts my understanding and pleasure.Finally could anyone tell me why poetry is read in such a mournful tone of voice? Long live Pam Ayres! The happy, in your face poet!!

Violet-Poetry/the Waste Land
A theory of discourse analysis is that one can tell with whom a person as been speaking by their language. Also that it is via language we become who we are.Poetry is the expression of the poets thoughts, a way of giving the world an insight into the mind.The opportunity to read, listen to orwrite poetry is important to society.Unfortunately many individuals will never know the joy of these aspects of literature.

Kate Brown on The Waste Land
Dear Melvyn - In Our Time is an astonishing achievement, anyone who had listened to and digested even just a year's programmes could boast of a serious foothold in arts and sciences. That having been said, I missed something quite crucial in your discussion of The Waste Land. I discovered this poem when I was 15, and loved it for its music - it also introduced me to Nerval's poetry, and Wagner's, and the City churches. Jessie Weston was mentioned, but no-one talked properly about why the poem was called The Waste Land, and where the promise of rain comes from at the end. The barren fragmented nature of 20thC western culture can be refreshed - perhaps (and the uncertainty is enchanting) - by the ancient certainties of the east. Anyway, that's what I thought when I was 15, and it seems still quite valid. No-one mentioned the thunder.

Paulpic not a Waste after all
Maybe Wasteland was talking about info-tainment. That it is neither a waste to learn deeply nor waste to dither. Either way, you can enjoy the passage. Sort of a cheerful thought -- thinking that we are not Wast'in our Time.

Susan Biggin The Wasteland
The Wastelands - Your discussion was reassuring to this materials scientist. For many years I've tried to reason with this classic, to seek structures of the right form to contain it, and failed. I can now see its sense, in the amorphous envelope of meaning it shapes for itself.

Piers Spencer, The Waste Land
It occurs to me that there are two 20th century musical works in which quotation is central. Luciano's Berio's Sinfonia, which uses the 3rd movement of Mahler's 2nd Symphony as a template which is overlaid with quotations from Beethoven, Ravel, Ives, Debussy....and on and on.The other is Shostakovich's enigmatic final symphony No 15, where puzzling quotations from Rossini and Wagner crop up throughout. Both works can be summed up in Eliot's line 'These fragments I have shored against my ruins.'

THE WASTE LAND
Excellent - nothing superfluous or pretentious. Incidentally, I also encouraged my M.Phil students to read & contemplate the lines before embarking on the supposed mythological/epic pattern.Andrew K Kennedy - Clare Hall, Cambridge

Jane - The Wasteland
April might, in this case, have been a less cruel month than this grey February to deal us 'The Wasteland' 'though the timing turned out to be somewhat pertinent in relation to today's news. How all too easily things reiterate. I think that to really understand quite a lot of poetry the saying "you had to be there" applies. The mood, the weather, the moment, the environment, the whim, a passing bird, an argument, being in love etc. etc. etc. etc. can surely create or influence poems. To try to intellectualize isn't always possible (or necessary) no matter how deep and glorious the speculative results may be. In this work, the writer being in a (justifiably) nervous, depressed and subsequently chaotic state probably gave rise to an awful lot of what was under discussion today. Poems tend to spring forth, often taking the writer by surprise but my perception of this piece is that it is less about inspiration and more about statement and expression of personal (affiliated to collective) experience at a certain point in time and via a certain talent. Poetry is a very broad term but I've reached the stage where I think that there are quite enough of the poems which bewail our lot...... I want to see some solutions! Best wishes and many thanks as always.

Richard Simpson The Waste Land
As ever a fine programme thank you. A small item of geographical (if not necessarily poetic) fact. The "city" elemement of the street names isn't compromised by Queen Victoria Street as it is in EC4. Maybe your guest was thinking of Victoria Street in Westminster?

Chloe Alexander: The Waste Land
Having studied The Waste Land for English A Level, I was really looking forward to this IOT, but have come away disappointed by the contributions. For example, when asked by MB about the line "A heap of broken images" Steve Connor was dumbstruck and flummoxed. Which seems to me astonishing for a Professor of Modern Literature, or perhaps it's an indication of the calibre of academics these days? The individual concepts Eliot puts in, it seems to me, require no exact interpretation but are better seen as a composite whole, a theme. There seemed a lot of time spent unnecessarily on the material that Pound removed, rather than the poem we have today. Why? No mention of The Fisher King which was an excellent IOT last year. Nor the growth of spiritualism, the growing interest in Freud and the phenomenon of neurosis, the drought which had afflicted London for two summers prior to the publication of the poem ("But there is no water"), Jazz music, the work of the Surrealists ... all of which seem more pertinent to me than, say, the founding of the BBC or Marie Stopes Family Planning clinic. Surely those events were just an historical coincidences? The panel seemed obsessed by these coincidental dates, but history doesn't react that quickly. What would have influenced Eliot would have been creeping through for the previous ten years. Years ago Melvyn Bragg hosted a South Bank Show on The Waste Land with Craig Raine amongst others which was a perfect discoursive analysis of the poem. Today's programme felt irrelevant and unhelpful, especially to anyone new to the piece who would probably have appreciated a more coherent examination.

John Toohey
Over the years IOT has been running there have been dozens of programmes about medieval Europe and quite a few about medieval Islam and the Arab world but barely a sentence about the Crusades.There were something like 10 of them. Surely one is worth a programme

Alexandra Rook re.The Waste Land
The 3 male academics were all far too literal whereas the minority voice of the woman professor was so much more cogent, subtle and coherent. The key point she made is to listen to the music of the verse - the pauses, as in music, tell you as much as the words. You fill in the spaces and make of the words what you will from your own experience as much as any erudition you may bring to it. Isnt that the purpose/meaning of poetry - to capture emotion as much as intellectual constructs? That said, Pound's genius was to excise words & make the form of the verse reflect its message - less is more. I thought the brief reflection on sex in the poem missed the point completely - it was based on hindsight, looking forward to the future post 60s so called sexual liberation & its aftermath, whereas for Eliot surely it would have reflected the urgency of sexual encounters in the face of young men going to war & not returning.

rosamond richardson the waste land
the discussion of 'I did not think death had undone so many' - of the crowds flowing over London Bridge - comes direct from Dante, which your discussion strangely failed to mention, since it's well known. Dante's model of the world - hell, purgatory, paradise, is also a model of the human psyche, and his 'wasters' flowing into the mouth of hell (Inferno) are his depiction of - in his words - 'the waste and rubbish of the universe' - those who never committed to hope, faith or love or anything much else. The 'neutrals'. They are on their way to the eternal fires (in his scheme of things). I heard the 'in our time' on Dante and was hugely disappointed that he came over as so dry and rather boring. He isn't - as Eliot would be the first to acknowledge (Dante, he confessed, was the most important influence on his life and entire oeuvre). Please could we, one day, have another discussion on Dante with commentators who can bring him to life in the way he deserves (Dante is never dead, actually), and relate him to the human condition and the way we live now. Please. Meanwhile, thanks for a fascinating view of Eliot (his number one fan) today.best wishes

Stella Gambling: The Waste Land
I have just listened to the programme on The Waste Land with much enjoyment. The discussion of Ezra Pound's influence on the text and how this 'fractured' the sense of a coherent narrative made me wonder if this is related to Pound's relationship with the Vorticists, who had attempted to 'fracture' the urban landscape in their paintings of the late 1910s. This would also feed into the sense of a 'robotic' world - another interest of the Vorticists.

Elizabeth Roberts The Waste Land
1) How can the significance of 'sterile (sexual) encounters'in the Waste Land be puzzling, since the poem is about fertility in its broadest sense, and fertility rites in particular? 2) The poem's underlying theme is the poet's (then unsatisfied) thirst for an explanatory cosmology, which Eliot later found in Christianity.

The Waste Land
I thought that looking for a 'cultural context' got the discussion off to a bad start. We only see such things in retrospect - they are crude summaries. So crude that you can read the 1920s as either being about modernism; progress, embrace of change or as the complete opposite; regret for a loss of faith, innocence, a culture - and the embrace not of change but of reaction. I was also puzzled that the contributors made no reference to other works by Eliot. If we want to know what 'The Waste Land' is 'about' the answer is surely that it is about the same thing as most of his other poems! 'Gerontion' is surely a condensed 'Waste Land'.

David Pollard / The wasteland
How strange that three experts on Eliot can spend 40 minutes discussing 'The Wasteland' without mentioning religion. Surely this is one of, in not the, most important topic in the poem

S.Stewart - Jaipur Observatory
I thoroughly enjoyed the discussion and, having visited the Observatory over 20 years ago but found no explanation there regarding the size or specific function of the "scultures" there, the programme explained a lotthat had puzzled me. Thank you.

Jaipur Observatory and ‘Orientalism’. Christopher
This was a fascinating and enlightening programme, for me especially as I had travelled overland to India in 1963 with three other young people plus the Hon. Penelope Betjeman, who took us along to Jai Sing’s remarkable astronomical observatory in New Delhi, similar to that in Jaipur. Also I had been at school with one of the sons of the Maharajah of Jaipur, whose mother was considered to be one of the most beautiful women in the world.I was however disappointed to hear the word ‘Orientalism’ - the Western myth of the Orient - used in Edward Said’s disparaging sense by one of your contributors, as if it were now an irrefutable fact. Said explained its meaning in ghastly jargon as ‘an activity by which a hegemonic discourse represents the other … in narratives of oppression’, which can be more simply expressed as wrongly viewing the East from a superior ideological vantage point, and in romantic but essentially negative terms. The first time I heard the word used in this sense was when I was researching my biography of Cumbria’s lyrical poet, Susanna Blamire (1747-94). She had described her experience of suffering a severe bout of Rheumatic fever, by using the metaphor of a hot and pitiless desert. But crucially, she portrayed her recovery in extremely positive terms: of accepting conveyance offered by a caravan travelling to Mecca. An academic friend commented to me almost without thinking: ‘That’s a typical example of Orientalism’. I was angered by the fact that it obviously was not, and that the persisting mindless and politically correct use of Said’s concept of ‘Orientalism’ needs rigorous questioning. Perhaps Said's 'Orientalism' would be an interesting subject for one of your programmes?Christopher Maycock

David Neckar: Carthage
I was diasppointed with the Carthage program where the contributors too frequently fell back on facile contemporary comparisons (e.g."Blue Peter", which even MB couldn't take). It felt very superficial to me and not up to the usual standards of IOT.

collie The Observatory At Jaipur
Most interesting & all new to this listener. Were there any women scientists or sciene students at Jaipur? I don't want to make a feminist case but believe that women can manage science as easily as men can.

Peter Wright: Jaipur
I spent two days at the Jaipur observatory in 1982. I did not know about it until I arrived in the city and I was naturally astounded (back in Cornwall I had been making a study of the history of sundials and mass clocks around the county.)I had the privilege of joining the local astronomer in a lightproof room in the base of the Great Yantra (the largest sundial with the staircase gnomen). There at noon, against two marble quadrants, he measured the declination of the sun via it’s projection down the dark tower from two holes at the top of the instrument, holes about the size of tennis balls. An old bronze ring with cross hairs was used to centre the image on the marble quadrants, each side of the small room. I was told that the moon could also be measured in this way. Venus and Mars also gave off enough light.Towards evening, wild monkeys chased each other around and over the instruments, a magical site!

Roger Moses Jaipur Observatory
I found the historical discussion fascinating and informative, it put the apparent obsolescence of the observator(ies, there were 6) in a revealing cultural context.The science was more patchy, tending to paint indian astronomy in a rather oldfashioned, conservative and catch up the west light. There was no mention of Aryabhatta 1; Born in 476 CE in Kusumpur ( Bihar ), Aryabhatta's intellectual brilliance remapped the boundaries of mathematics and astronomy. In 499 CE, at the age of 23, he wrote a text on astronomy and an unparallel treatise on mathematics called "Aryabhatiyam.His nearest equivalent in western science is Isaac Newton, in that the science depends on mathematics that is either completely new, or applied to the real world for the first time, including the use of zero, and a partly heliocentric system wit very accurate observed and calculated results. He is part of an indian scientific tradition which uses phlosophical concepts that sit with modern astronomy and physical science very comfortably, and continues very fruitfully today.

jane - Jaipur Observatory
Really loved this programme. As well as being a 'quarter' more than other men, Jai Singh seems to have been very wise too, seemingly recognizing the fundamental importance of culture as well as science. One summer's afternoon, I remember taking my daughter (then two) to visit my father. As he silenced the lawn mower he said "you'd know it was a girl in the garden because a boy would have come straight over here to investigate the workings of the machine whereas a girl simply looks, understands that the grass is obviously being cut and with no further interest, continues on her way. (My son later corroborated this statement!) If this sounds politically incorrect, it's still what the majority of parents would nod in agreement to. A lot of science ends up in useful roles, but much of science is simply the natural and often male need to unravel and to understand 'mechanisms'. Admirable and intelligent as this trait is, I think that it should be objectively understood in relation to the 'pecking order' of what is important to society. ('Though it didn't apply to Jai Singh's situation, the now restrictive construct of 'money' obviously imposes a need to compromise and prioritise.) The purpose and use (or not) of science requires the implementation of great wisdom. Regarding astrology, I am not Asian, but for very practical reasons had expert vedic astrological charts drawn up for both of my children. In one aspect, they read largely like a genetic blueprint of the parents - not because they could be construed this way or that, but because they were very specific and blatantly reflected the genetic legacy. I suggest that nobody deride the real and very precise science of astrology without considerable study and experience of it. It would be arrogantly unintelligent to do so. For me, the programme pointed me in the direction of our need to make sense of the outer reality we are interfaced with. Many scientists find a happy way of fulfilling their life and obligations through their work but I think it probable that maybe, in the scientific obsession with the "material world", we are getting things upside down - a bit like a Beethoven score in relation to the actual music...the score is the means. It's difficult to think outside of the paradigm, but science is just one way of relating to the universe. Although astronomy was his passion, Jai Singh's background probably gave him a different perspective on scientific exploration than our western one produces. The mind has different strata and the intellect is but one. There are layers that speak in an instant symbolism which, paradoxically, carries a veracity not yet possible in the fragmented view which the intellect creates. Everything holds together inter-connectedly. Science is a tortuous path whereas the truer perspective is always known in an instant. Science is separation, whereas 'truth' is an incredibly obvious 'wholeness'. Our bodies know this deep down - in spite of huge genetic influence, the body holds much more than its biological history. I know that my perspective tends to appear abstruse, but the catalyst for my esoteric perspective is largely my innate pragmatism. The reason is very much a solidly practical one..... plus the fact that I once read that the average life of a scientific theory is six and a half years....not exactly a trustworthy bedrock hey! Best wishes and thank you for a really enjoyable programme. ps The picture of the wonderful observatory looks like the meeting of science and art ....or is that how it should be!

Paulpic Jaipur
Naked eye astronomy is the way to go. If it wasn't for all the lights at night it'd still be worthwhile (the astronomy part, that is) for the amatuer to have a place like Jaipur.

Ezra Davies. Was Carthage salted?
Dear Melvin Bragg (and John Butler below)John Butler wrote about Carthage being salted to render infertile. Salt is very abundant in the soil anyway, that's why dirt under your fingernails tastes salty. It also dissolves and washes away readily. In those days it was very expensive and too pricy to spread over a large area of land. I have also experimented myself using salt to kill plants, and found it didn't work.

Jon Tanner: Jaipur Observatory.
I am surprised that no mention was made of Tycho Brahe, whose somewhat similar observatory was built over 100 years before those of Jai Singh.

Rashid Karapiet Jaipur Observatory
Fascinating as always but why was there no mention of Jai Singh's other observatory at New Delhi, a landmark memory from my childhood which I visited again in 1998? Is it not still there?

CARTHAGE - revised version
About "Carthage must be destroyed":I must say I was a bit confused when one of your guests kept saying that Carthage was present all over Africa and that we could still find signs of its former presence all over Africa. From all the maps I've seen on Carthage, its African territory was confined to parts of Northern Africa limited in the coastal regions. Carthage was very much part of the ancient mediterranean world, the cradle of civilization, and an important player in shaping it.Another thing, which intrigued me, is the interpretation about the utter destruction of Carthage by the Romans. At no point any of your guests or even yourself considered or even wondered that maybe the advanced civilization of Carthage might have been a problem for Rome who didn't want to be overshadowed by its rival even for future generations. It's a rather twisted interpretation to see it only as a moral stance (ludicrous really) against "opulence" as it would have been as sign of decadence. Incidentally "opulence", luxuriousness, "feminity", and so on, always has been a "sin" attributed to the "Orient" as a way of minimizing and undermining its achievements. Interestingly enough there have even been mentions in your programme of "crusades" way before its time and even WMD! Not sure what this has to do with the punic wars. Here we go again with this idea of an eternal clash between East and West. It seems so ingrained that it's not even conscious anymore even by academics which are supposed to have some critical distance.Emma B.

val b. Fairy Tales ( Brothers Grimm)
I'd like to make a comment about the term 'Kunstmaerchen' as mentioned in the programme: It is not an 'Art' Fairy Tale, but implies an 'artificial' Fairy Tale, meaning a tale written/made up by an author/poet, compared to a folk tale (as collected by the Grimm Brothers) which was based on oral tradition. The basic idea of these folk tales is that evil people/deeds are always punished.

Jane - pedantry
A light response to the pedants. If Melvyn was as 'without fault' as you'd have him, he'd not only be an automaton, but also extremely bad news for the self esteem of the rest of us. This programme's excellence carries it way out on a wonderful limb, and I'm just incredibly grateful that Melvyn has the gumption to see it through each week. A further measure of the man is that he takes time out of his busy day to write a regular newsletter for us. I'd much rather wave verbal flags than verbal bludgeons at him. Thanks...Lord Bragg - because you could have settled for an easier option! ps grammatically speaking, should there be a question mark at the end of alan richardson's sentence regarding Bragg integrity?!! Best wishes.

alan richardson-pedantry on peddling furiously !
Dear Melvyn BraggSee'peddling' (para.7 line 2) !! As often, your discussion was a fascinating way of delaying any hyperactive start to Thursday when action is not on. You used 'the day peddled on furiously' after you got to Mi'Lords' House, but the word is surely pedalled -as in bicycle pedal-otherwise you indicate you sold out fast surely ? Not something I immediately associate with the Bragg integrity? You are in good company, the Financial Times has been known to get it wrong even when referring to bicycles. Yes, i am a recidivist cyclist of responsible age. Best wishes for future explorations.alan richardson

John Butler - Carthage
I thought the Romans were suppoosed to have made the land infertile by salting it & levelled the hill. Is this so, or complete fiction? Also the remains of the Carthaginian harbour which concealed its ships very cleverly are still to be seen. Pity the winners always write up the story. Archeology is often the better source of truth.

Andrew Mason - Archive Library As Podcasts
Melvyn1. I am a massive fan of In Our Time (IOT) - it stands clear of the rest of BBC Four's excellent and admirable pack. The light it shines on its subjects make it the Alexandrian Lighthouse of radio programmes. In some ways it is a refinement of the Start The Week format that you used to chair - a programme that has never been as good since you left, Jeremy Paxman's sessions were good, but somehow yours were better - it used to have the vigour and delight of a gathering of renaissance princes, merchants and philosophers discussing their newfound world. 2. The archive library for IOT reflects the true glory of the programme. Could you possibly investigate with the 'Powers That Be' making some, much, all of it available as podcasts. I would like be able to put the programmes into my mp3 player to listen to on the train, whilst out walking etc. I am sure that thousands, possibly tens of thousands would love to do the same. It is not just an entertainment archive but is a source of 'general history, science, literature and philosophy'. It far out-rivals its rivals.3. The matter is extremely difficult; I would imagine it includes licensing matters etc. Plus other programmes would claim and clamour "what about us". The best of those might also be made more available. But if the BBC want to do true service to its license payers beyond bestowing to the Nation 'Little Britain', 'Jonathan Ross on Friday Night' and 'Gavin and Stacey' then it has the Holy Grail already graspable.4. When I look at the IOT archive, I feel like the proverbial survivor stranded in the desert viewing with longing, and desperate hope, the oasis mirage ahead.5. The BBC is unlikely to listen to a tiny voice crying out from its ether but may well give due attention to your advice.6. Thank you from one tiny voice for the pleasure that you give.Andrew Mason14 February 2009ANDREW MASONCorporate Security - Europe, Middle East and Africa Region Corporate Real Estate and ServicesCredit Suisse One Cabot Square LondonE14 4QJ Tel: +44 (0) 20 7883 6920Fax: +44 (0) 20 7888 4944

Elizabeth Key- Latin quotations- get them right!
'Carthago delenda' cropped up in Melvyn's introduction & the 8.30 a.m. trail-but Cato the Elder wrote 'Delenda est Carthargo'- which gives a much stronger emphasis and rhythm- an error which the classistists were too polite to correct. Another splendid programme, thank you.

Sandy Hall - Rome v Carthage 13.02.09
This had the promise of being an excellent programme, as one expects, but the elephant in the room which forced me to switch off before the end was the incessant "umm-ing" and "err-ing" of at least one contributor. To a retired lecturer in public speaking and presentation, this was not good radio. Sorry. Still received a lot of new information and clarification, though. Wish I'd had a more inspiring history teacher at school. Best wishes.

michael stafford carthage
I admired the way Melvyn steered the ladies back to seriousness when they got too donnishly frivolous.

Paulpic Mediterranean as pond
What was the panel implying by their comparsion of London to Rome and New York to Carthage? Has the banking crisis shown there should only be one financial capital?

Erin Hastings, The Brothers Grimm
Hello.I listen to the podcast of the show every week, and enjoy it enormously. I am at last moved to comment by last week's show on the Brothers Grimm.I'm not quite sure how to refer to the presenter, since I am an unwashed American. I shall address my comments directly to Baron Bragg, for simplicity.Sir - thank you so much for your reaction to the Grimms' dishonest scholarship. In your newsletter you said that you pretty much were blown up for your inability to get beyond their dishonesty, and although it wasn't the show I expected, I was pleased and gladdened by your reaction. It's getting less common, I'm afraid. More and more people are looking only for the facts that support their pet theories, and fewer people are disgusted by this. You were horrified by the Grimms - thank you. They WERE horrible, as scholars, at least. To suppress a fact is the same as a lie, and they lied, continually. I'm not necessarily recommending that we dig them up and hang them, Cromwell-style, but honestly, something needed to be said. Well done.

Jane - Carthage
Don't know whether lack of sleep doth render me stupid or whether these are valid questions. The gained wealth created a 'feminising' - what exactly does that mean in such a context? Also, "we need to keep this enemy here or we will collapse into moral decline". Was this because either the discipline and focus imposed by potential conflict or a general focus of hatred 'honed' the people, strengthening their solidarity and moral level? I'm not very clear on how Scipio Nasica deduced this (predictively) - or is it a common theme? It's probably obvious, but can anybody possibly enlighten me? A choice between targeted hatred or moral decline....and all that carnage - I can get quite depressed listening to history -'though the hugely creative elements of Carthage must have been fabulous, even if destruction was the subsequent fate. Once sang Belinda in a performance of Purcell's Dido and Aeneas conducted by the lovely Robert Tear but only got to 'hold Dido's hand' whilst she mournfully rendered forth one of the best, if saddest tunes ever written - Dido's Lament "When I am laid in earth may my wrongs create no trouble in thy breast, remember me but a..ah, forget my fate." I'm even more depressed now. Best wishes and thanks as always.

Carthage
Good programme.The three commentatorsbrought out the themes very well.The name 'Carthage'has a mystic resonance in studies of the early rise of Rome.The myths play a part with the Tyrianprincess Dido and the laying on of the curse after the love affair with Aenias.The downfall of Carthage echoed Rome's own fate in mirroring that of Troy.The figure of the austere Cato andthe story of the fig: destroying Carthage was like overcoming louchenessluxury and effeminacy and gaining total control of the Mediterranean.Butthere are countervailing voices who think this would be a bad thing,one ofwhom is the prophetic voice of Polybius-eyewitness historian to the destruction of Carthage-who provides the sting in the tail.This probably is the foundation of the new Roman Empirebut with it the loss of that famousMediterranean equilibrium and balance.Then follows the beginning of the end:civil wars,loss of the Republic,the line of Emperors,the gross taxationsand corruptions,the excessive crueltyand the self-destruction.In other wordsthe loss of soul and the loss of necessity. The whole battleground wasSicily,an arena of great importance forthe rise of Rome and the loss of which proved fatal to the Carthaginians.It makes you realize how much we've lostwith the loss of Latin and Greek.

Elizabeth Roberts Carthage
ps I thought the usual tag was 'Carthago delenda est' (Carthage must be destroyed) This form would also allow more dramatic emphasis if spoken in the senate.

Laurence Hallewell, Carthage
'Twas a pity Melvyn Bragg did not mention the final irony: that the New Rome, Constantinople (and presumably all Christendom), was in the 7th century saved from a new Persian conquest by a general from Carthage, Heraclius. He ended up destroying another empire, Persia, and so weakening the Roman Empire in the process as to leave both open to the Arab jihad that islamised Persia and halved the Roman Empire by taking over the Holy Land, Egypt, and eventually North Africa and Spain, including Carthage itself. Which in turn, albeit some 800 years later, caused the fall of Constantinople itself to Islam.

Elizabeth Roberts - Sicily as grain producer
Re: the importance to Rome of Sicily as a producer of grain. Surely there must be an example here of radical climate change before the combustion engine and other 20th century CO2 emissions? Ditto the desertification of Egypt, also once a rich grain-producer?

Andrew Amesbury
Very interesting topic this morning on Rome vs Carthage, especially the idea that Rome began to decline after the defeat of Carthage. It made me wonder whether the United Kingdom met the end of a moral purpose after the defeat of Germany in 1945 (and possibly America began to decline morally once it no longer had the Soviet Union to struggle against).

Cato citation
Btw it's "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.", not "Delendam esse Carthago."

Ian Foreman Carthage
Fascinating programme,learnt so much but surely today should have been Abraham Lincoln?

Darwin and his ensuing ism
I seem to write to this IOT website more than anybody else does and that is because, for me, the programme and site hold the deepest and rarest integrity. The integrity lies not only in the choice and investigation of subjects, but also in the composite picture which is represented. In Our Time's series on Darwin was truly inspiring, revealing so much about this wonderful man and I really congratulate all concerned. However, it is troubling me that the general representation of Darwin's work is almost offensively reductive. The point is - Darwin was an exemplary scientist in one fundamentally important field of science. Science requires specialization - naturally, just as endocrinology, cardiology, dermatology etc relate to specialist areas of the body. However, the human being is a composite entity and so, surely, is science. If we don't marry it up - we don't get a correct picture. We are not doing good science if we compartmentalize beyond the practicality of function. In spite of the gains, I cannot feel that Darwin would be as 'pleased as Punch' as might be imagined because reductionism has isolated his work and created division rather than wholeness not to mention sweeping corollaries. Science knows neither the process nor the context relating to the presence of biology on this earth, never mind the role of consciousness - or for that matter, which gives rise to which....we await the advancement of science. There are obviously huge implications in biblical terms, but as doors have banged closed, should we consider that a baby has possibly been thrown out with the bathwater or the pendulum swung too far in the other direction? If we are merely products of a 'give it with one hand, take it with the other' biology, what do our stories mean? Surely Darwin,in our age, would have an eye on the whole vanguard of science (not to mention philosophy). We could be virtual beings in the minds of virtual beings in the minds of... for all we know. Is love simply a product of the selfish gene? Altruism has now been stretched to fit that role. I cannot believe that Darwin was reductionist by nature except in the necessary focus required for his particular 'vocation'. The IOT series managed to have a healthy and uplifting 'open' rather than 'closed' feel to it so I'm not sure how much of this issue is down to the various 'societies',how much to the media's involvement and how much to the biologists (or certain biologists) themselves. It's not impressive - in fact it rather detracts from the wondrous findings of Darwin. The almost evangelically held belief that nature somehow 'just happens' - which so smugly issues forth from Darwinists in a predictively concomitant way, is a leap of faith larger than the belief in a creative force, which at least has some logic to back it up. There's a most paradoxical medieval mindset operating in those patting themselves on the back. Science based solely on empiricism is quickly becoming anachronistic. I actually think that evangelical Darwinists are guilty of buying into the reductive and most dismissive phrase imaginable "Isn't nature wonderful". Nature is beyond wonderful.....what are the intimations which David Thoreau and Goethe stand for in our society? Darwinist's are possibly cutting off the branch from the tree on which they are sitting. We cannot draw fixed conclusions, we can only take what is revealed inch by dedicated inch along the 'line of time' and try to keep the right questions coming. Conclusions are simply not possible. It seems to me that ironically, all too many scientists,in spite of their goodness and dedication, are working to the detriment of the truest science. Anyway, it's always possible we're missing the point....."Tread softly because you tread on my dreams".... Tread carefully Darwinists. Best wishes and I feel I have to add "apologies".

grimms
The mention of Walter Benjamin was very interesting. How about a programme?"Art In The Age Of Mechanical Reproduction" is still a seminal (in fact almost mandatory) text for most artists. Benjamin is interesting because though he is remembered as a philosopher he was much more difficult to categorize than any writer of that generation. In fact, now I come to think of it, how about a whole programme on the exodus of Weimar writers/artists/film makers fron Germany in the 1930's???

peter
In Our Time gives me enormous pleasure. The opportunity to share in well argued, informative discussion is a rare treat these days.Having said that I did rather agree with Melvyn's self-criticism in his Newsletter and found his insistence on gaining agreement from his panel for the Grimm's duplicity somewhat over-egged. It prevented discussion of the language, which I would have found very interesting and I wondered, too, if any comparison with Anderson and his stories, written at much the same time, would have been informative.Keep up the good work.

"Lost in Translation"
I have a friend who's a rabbi in Israel and who also trots the globe teaching Talmud. I once said to him that in view of the nature of the human psyche, it might have been a better idea to call The Ten Commandments 'The Ten Suggestions'.... "It's definitely not a good idea to kill" etc.. He told me that in the Hebrew bible the word 'commandment' has a different meaning from the translated English.(Ironically, I'm having a bit of a semantic struggle putting this into words!) This is fundamental (semantics again! - the word now has new connotations.) stuff. He also told me that in the Hebrew bible there is added depth in that each word stands in its own right and holds intrinsic meaning. I really do think translation/linguistics are definitely worth considering for a programme....but then again...have you covered Carl Jung yet?! Best wishes.

phil samways. Thanks
I am just writing to thank you for the enormous amount of pleasure and information In Our Time has given me over several years. Very best wishes Phil

Re. Ian Francis
Is Ian aware of the subject research page which recommends further reading?

The Brothers Grimm - Charles Emerson
I think that what Charles has written about the translating of the tales from German to 20th century English is one of the most unsettling emails I've read on the 'Have your Say' site. I'm sure many of us have idly considered the potential power which translators have held down the centuries, but how unregulated has this whole melting pot been? Certain translators could, obviously, have 'shaped the world'. Although linguistic education might have increased, so has the 'net' of global scale and complexity, which means the problem may still be very much a contemporary one. This subject would, with the finest academics, make for a crucial, if extremely crammed, programme. Best wishes.

BLOOD: 22 May 2003
Is there any means of listening again to the above edition ? Better, can one get a transcript ?

oisin bourke The Brothers Grimm
Following the previous poster's fascinating comments regarding the Irish language, are there any extant sources RE: the Grimm's linguistic works? I'd love to read them

Fairy tales and fairies
You did not mentioned one noticeable difference in the Grimm stories. There no NOT A SINGLE fairy in any of them. I had both a German version and a 20th Century English translation. The latter has fairies in many stories, which made me wonder. I looked at both versions of every story with fairies, and I found absolutely no fairies in the German. "God", "the Lord", "the good Lord", "an angel", "the Virgin Mary", "a saint" and "Saint Peter" were all changed into fairies. I think the only unchanged religious reference was to a single hermit, maybe because the 20th Century translator was not familiar with hermits. Interestingly, the translator did not feel the need to censor out "the Devil" or "the Devil's grandmother".The English translation also censored "The Jew Among Thorns", so "the old Jew" became simple "an old man". As unpleasant as the anti-semitism of the original might be, I found the totally arbitrary abuse of an unidentified old man even more upsetting. Charles Emerson Lawton, Oklahoma

jane - The Brothers Grimm etc.
Once upon a time, a lot of years ago, I was performing in NZ. A journalist came to interview me and seeing my gaberdine coat enquired "Paris?". "My grandfather's old mac" I cheerfully replied. Mine was an every day folk mac. Because of the context,the journalist was reading a lot into it. Are we doing the same with folk stories? I am aware of the vast depths and enterprise of the human mind, and of archetypal forms, and of the wonderful legacy of incredible and erudite writings which grace our planet. I am also a person who tends to find depth and complexity in just about everything, but I'm just not convinced that these tales are necessarily more than the most practical application of imagination and intelligence born out of a certain daily context. In fact,I actually think our society is suffering from the accumulative lack of real unconscious outlet and the pressure is wreaking havoc as it builds. We tend to like stories - we have imaginations, stories can run the gamut - they can pass time for us and obviously be cathartic, anodyne,entertaining, frightening, violent, romantic, amusing etc.. I'm concerned that we've hit more of a negative than a positive point and that reiterating the same old stories in both ancient and contemporary hues runs the risk of inhibiting true, and I mean true, progress. Also,in our age,the plethora of output (film and television as well as books) has surely created a vicariousness and an influence of unhealthy proportions. In reality, the negative influence seems to be more readily absorbed than the positive. Like many a parent,I find it a difficult balance to inform my kids about the dangers and issues of life without creating a restricting sense of fear or paranoia in them but have never actually found the relevant children's books of any use whatsoever in my task. However ......'Horrid Henry' has been banned in my house because of the awful behaviour which ensued each time my son encountered the fictitious boy's obnoxious antics. Our stories are fundamentally crucial - profoundly and powerfully so, about what we're becoming, never mind what we've been. Back with the Grimms, intimations of the unconscious realms mingle, generally unrecognized and uninvited, with everything, so the 'unconscious stuff' is naturally present - but I'm not convinced that it's as profoundly or instrumentally present as purported by the academically inclined (my biggest self-doubt here is that I respect the late Carl Jung - both the man and his work - enormously). Maybe it's a sensibility issue.... creating yet another area of study: 'The various differences between those deeply affected by fairy stories and those left unmoved'! I'd appreciate any feedback as I'm not one to skim over things. I do think that for me, the world's 'folk' traditions are a rich and potentially 'glue like' legacy which embody, culturally and individually, both difference and commonality and the joy we can derive from them points a big finger to the ever deepening and widening question "What is a human being ?". Can our brain waves simultaneously tap the toes to a jig and hold divisive antagonism - or would they want to? What do our brains really require for their well being? What a tapestry! Best wishes to all.

Trevor Adcock The Brothers Grimm
What a disappointing programme this was! As a linguist and Germanist, I felt most of it was totally irrelevant to the history of ideas.The brothers did various oral history jobs with the sole aim of financing their original studies of Linguistics - a subject not understood at all at the time.I (and all others) have no idea how they felt about a possible unified Germany but I do know that the state in which you were born, however small, was your homeland then. Germany was not really a country as late as the First World War which is why Hitler was able to bring the Volk together to fight his lunatic causes. This had nothing whatever to do with the Brothers Grimm. Their contribution to the history of ideas was in Linguistics.

Ian Francis: Grimm's Fairy Tales
The fact that it's usually not possible to cover all desirable aspects of a subject in the helter skelter 43 minutes is I'm sure widely accepted. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be frustrating to the programme makers. The programmes are very much like a kind of foundation year, and I suspect that's how many of us treat them. How about, without adding unwelcome extra work, making notes or references available for follow-up reading?

Ian McClurg-Welland 'The Brothers Grimm Debate'
This was a difficult programme for all concerned but a brave attempt to place on record each person's viewpoint, even if these were confusing or at first call appeared to go in different directions. I for one, enjoyed the programme and I can also fully appreciate Mr Bragg's take on matters and outrage as well. When dealing with secondary sources for so much of what we understand to be accurate or correct, it sometimes clashes when primary sources reveal a different tact. The way we treat the Renaissance in art for instance has been clouded and swayed by so many writers and commentators and this started with Vasari! However, as more and more authentic primary sources come to light, the whole picture changes. Added to which are our own assumptions and persuasions. Mr Bragg and guests were debating and debating hard. For the listener, it called for careful understanding of facts and to question the motives alongside. For Mr Bragg to make no apology for the direction of the Brothers Grimm programme, is, in my opinion, the most honest of decisions and therefore should be respected. Mr Bragg has stood up for the principles in which he harbours and this is to be commended. The programme may prove to be a milestone in the debate that will rangle on. Having heard the programme again on "Listen again" my view has remained unchanged. Thank you for a great programme and for having the passion and honesty to explain and allow the programme to fester. The debate continues!

Paulpic Grimm telling tales
Mr (Lord?) Bragg's questioning of the Bros. citations does make one think that people might, too often, take the tales told by scholars as, in a matter of speaking, gospel.

v kelly swift and the irish
The anonymous commentator who refers to the English regarding the Irish as “savage” is overlooking the fact that it was the Irish language that was savage. It is an extremely complex language as I know for a fact because I, coming from an English-speaking (partly English-born) family, ended up in the all-Irish stream in my primary school and stayed there until my final year. English was spoken only in English classes and not even in the playground. Latin was taught in Irish as were all other subjects – history, sciences, geography etc,.Eventually I had to transpose into English when I went to University to study Engineering but I also took a BA and that included Irish and Latin. I graduated in 1948 and although I have lived out of Ireland for fifty years I still retain some Irish and have had the experience of twice speaking in Irish to the surprise of two chance acquaintances in Spain (Galicia).Irish is “savage” because ideally one must first learn it vocally for some time before launching into its very complex grammar. Don’t ever try to learn from a book first.With only eighteen letters, the five vowels can carry lengthening accents whilst seven of the remaining consonants can carry over-lying dots that can change the pronunciation quite unexpectedly. Also the complicated irregular verbs put French to shame and life is further complicated by the sometime impossible irregular nouns. For instance, the genitive case of “bean” (pronounced “ban”), a woman, turns to “mná” (minawe) in the genitive. Aspirated p becomes f, aspirated m becomes a vague w sound etc., etc. And I don’t claim to be a linguist although, by the necessity of having a few Spanish-born grand-children, I have managed a reasonable proficiency in Spanish in my retirement years.

Judith Rowley Grimm
Thought the comment regarding the use of gathered folk tales creating a heritage, and their use, to unite the states of Germany, having witnessed the obvious power bestowed on France by Napoleon and his use of nationalism, of great interest.

Brother's Grimm Repatriate
It seems that by repatriating international tales as German the brothers may have seeked attention from their fahterland. Unfortunately this made thier work attractive to the Nazis who wished too to bolster thier own image. So in a karma like lash back the brothers found themselves entwined in Nazi propoganda. So as Melvin most clearly identified they did what academics never should and sullied truth for thier own gain. Ironically in the end this led them to make thier own moves against the growing nationalism that they had mistakenly fuelled.

William - Grim....
Melvyn,reading your newsletter, you were right, I think, to get uptight at the notion that The Brothers were possibly hoodwinking their readers into believing the veracity of their stories, as some kind of cultural record set down as historical truth; why else would they provide such a convincing set of footnotes? You needn't have worried though about 'banging on' I wanted the answer as much as you! The very nerve of providing false witness! I think someone should study this possibility as a subject for their Phd... Regards

Kenneth Ross/ The Brothers Grimm
As an avid listener to the “In our Time Series” I was extremely disappointed with Thursday’s, “The Brothers Grimm”. I listened to this programme for somewhat over five minutes before giving up in disgust. Lord Bragg’s constant interruptions and wholly unnecessary interjections made, at least for me, the discussion impossible to follow since every second I was waiting for the next interruption. Surely it is possible for Lord Bragg to give the experts an outline of the route he plans to follow and then, with minimal direction, allow them to use their expertise to elucidate the subject: it is they we want to hear, not Lord Bragg; able and delightful individual though he is.

Nick Galwey. The brothers Grimm
During the ‘In our Time’ programme on the brothers Grimm, Melvyn Bragg repeatedly asked why the brothers had been deceitful about the origins of their stories in order to portray them as ‘purely German’. I fear the answer has to be that already, at that early date, romantic nationalism was being pressed into the service of political nationalism.But it is a tragedy that cultural purity should be thought necessary to give value to a nation’s art. There are many examples to the contrary. A considerable proportion of Shakespeare’s plays are set in Italy, but that does not make them any less of a credit to England. It’s true that in ‘War and Peace’, Leo Tolstoy portrayed French culture as corrupting the Russian aristocracy. But in the non-polemical parts of the book, his characters are never more attractive, and never more Russian, than when they are thirstily drinking up French sophistication. Such national cross-fertilisation extends the popular end of the cultural spectrum as well. In Walt Disney’s ‘Pinocchio’, the wood-carver lives in a steep-roofed town surrounded by snowy peaks – the German-ness of Italy. In Disney’s ‘Beauty and the Beast’, the boorish Gaston decorates his walls with antlers and drinks beer from foaming steins – the German-ness of France.When romantic nationalists become political, they are in danger of asking the ‘Volk’ to live in a cultural ghetto, in the name of national purity, which they would never consent to inhabit themselves. The ways in which a culture relates to other cultures are part of the culture itself, and should be celebrated as such.

Pamela Elliott
You mention Walter Scott in your newsletter. Any chance of a programme on him. I am very interested in the Brontes who in turn were influenced by all things Scottish (because of Blackwoor's magazine) especially Walter Scott.

Carl Trocki Historiography
I was surprised that your panelists completely missed the importance of the great scientific revolutions and the invention of social sciences of the early modern and modern periods and how they impacted on the writing of history. The work of Copernicus, Newton, Darwin, Marx, Einstein, Freud, etc. These not only changed our views of the physical and social universe but by reshaping the cosmos, forced historians to reshape their histories.

The Brothers Grimm
Thought that Melvin was trying to steer the Grimms' works into a contributory factor to the Holocaust. Fact was that Prussia determined to never again be beaten after Jena, so concentrated on education. Does Melvin consider that Gauss' mathematical output contributed to holocaust?

Rod Paton Grimm Tales and archetypal psychology
How could the programme go by with not more than the tiniest glimpse of the unconscious and the story or the tale as a set of images which bridge the gap between the dream world and the daily grind? Surely, the purpose of the oral tradition of storytelling as it existed in the 18th century was to provide a mirror to the world and an initiation into adulthood. The violence is not literal, the deaths and mutilations are of the psyche, the dreamworld and, as such, provide an imaginal road map for the grim(m) life ahead. I love these tales and have memorised many of them. When I tell them I invariably alter details. The voice is authentic provided that the spirit in which they are told is genuine. Why carp on about sources and footnotes and authenticity? The integrity of the tales is for me in no way undermined by the presentation. We academics can get too obsessed by the letter of the law and can too easily forget the spirit of the imagination. These tales are genuine, archetypal. They provide an extraordinary glimpse of the inner reaches of the collective unconscious. This is possibly their true value and the source of their fascination.

Jane - The Brothers Grimm
Possibly one of the most important sentences I ever read (written in a most interesting book about the placebo effect) was "which stories are you telling yourself?". Our inner and outer 'stories' shape our whole lives. Storytelling has emerged as a central part of all the cultures I know of 'though it now sits, like almost everything, on the obscenely huge back of money making - a dangerous liaison. For various reasons, I've made an effort not to wean my kids on the potent and enticing fodder of Disney. As for me, fairy tales didn't relate to life issues, they were just fantasy - nothing more - I read fairy stories before bed and was not affected by them in any way - real life stories held more sway. Were the Grimm tales just a collation which, through the application of a certain intelligent discernment and stylized eloquence, became a genre at a particular point in time? Some aspects of today's discussion related to what I would simply call 'poetic license' 'though glancing at this week's responses, more sinister implications are mentioned. My siblings and I grew up with an old grey copy of Grimm's Fairy Tales which existed in our house from my earliest memories - no-one ever thought to read it - it was just 'there' - a part of the past like our ancient home somehow. Human stories have basic themes the world over - the parochial soon bleeds into the universal. Popular stories will, as spoken about in today's programme, tend to play on the unsettling tension of injustice followed by the oh so satisfying resolution leading to justice (a particular American favourite). We should be interested in this deeply innate sense of justice and what it possibly tells us about ourselves. 'Romance' obviously appeared at some point - like the promise icing brings, detracting from a rotten cake in many cases. Real love and real life are very different from romance and romanticizing.....an interesting subject - which created which..... and who were the initial literary romantic protagonists? Does the complexity of the psyche strive, from some bedrock place, to 'fix itself'? Our stories would tend to indicate so. As for nationalism, it's a sad thing that it's become a word of negative rather than positive connotation. Difference, as well as commonality, should ideally be relished 'though I have to admit that my own grandmother, with nostrils flared, frequently used to say "it wouldn't do if we were all the same" only to settle back in her chair with a slightly smug expression which meant "but my way is best". Folk traditions, like music and lyrics played in the bonhomie of an Irish (or wherever) pub, can deeply enrich our basic human enjoyment and common connectedness. (Sadly, the imposed, if alluring, need to be 'cool' has robbed us of so much!) I studied in Alsbach, not far from Frankfurt, and was surprised to hear how recently the sense of a German identity had emerged for it was so strongly and intrinsically evident in all the people I encountered. How much of what colours people comes from the land and climate? Even in England, the south holds a very different ethos from the north. Nipped off to be vaguely domestic for an hour and when I returned Melvyn's newsletter had arrived. I'm quite bemused by how seriously people have taken fairy tales - the wolf actually ate Little Red Riding Hood - "so what?" my inner eight year old says, "it's "******* fantasy".....or maybe that was my ten year old! I thought the programme brought a lot to light and I understood why Melvyn was pushing his point - the written criticism comes from one aspect of purism confronting a different aspect of purism if you see what I mean. Many, many thanks and best wishes as always.

roger searle
I have what I consider a new 'wave' geomtry which is richer than Islamic and a challenge. Every line goes in one direction so in the footsteps of Boole I think it might 'be something'. Have large quantity and want to show but obviously cannot here.

C, The Grimm Brothers' Fairy Tales
The first guest, J. Wood, wanted to sweep the gory details of the stories under the carpet. This is a great mistake and suggests she is rather ignorant of her subject matter. There is a wealth of second degree meaning in these details. The tales can be read on many levels, including as an allegory of human evolution. I am listening to the programme live and the discussion seems to have picked up already. Melvyn Bragg's handling of this first speaker was wonderful, filling in the detail that she left out. 'Middle class' tells us nothing useful - you explained the brothers' early life so much better than the so-called expert, thank you Melvyn.

Tim Baber The Brothers Grim antecedents?
In Our Times programme on 'The Brothers Grimm' is long overdue. The media is famous for skating on the surface of Folk-Lore yet all too rarely looking under the surface. In my student days I used the Folklore Society library at University College London, in Gower Street, becoming a happy as larry member for a few years. I sincerely hope that library is still accessible to your most motivated readers. Of course the Cecil C Sharp Folk Music Library elsewhere is somewhat better funded for obvious reasons, but for me FolkLore scholarship is under funded and under represented at least in my lifetime. The darker themes mentioned here in your programme has something a bit odd about it however, just 'google' these words and follow your nose; Brothers Grimm Mind Control MK Ultra.Your programme probably with good reasons skated over this even darker supposed aspect of the Grimm's and their ilk. However, if you also 'google' "Tim Baber" and "Alice in Wonderland" you will see my take on this weird world of children's literature beating to a discrete drum in the last century at least, based...perhaps...on an older tradition the Grimm's collected. I was only scratching the surface and moved on to other things (like a Monarch butterfly), but others have picked up my collation of research... such as heart7.net which shows this is an area often unreported by the mainstream media. Disney does much. but 'google' Disney and "Fritz Springmier" to see there is a provenance to this alternative beverage that the mainstream media rarely touches upon in the Uk at least. Much comes from the USA but Folk-lore studies are in my view the strongest in Europe.How nice that the BBC with Mr Bragg and his guests have lifted a corner on Folk-tales for us. It takes a lifetime of study and I gave up after a year or two. But there may have been a supporting structure under the carpet, under the stairs, in the basement of this subject that few people understand.

John- Brothers Grimm
The Brothers Grimm were born in the Romantic age and searched for Germany’s folk heritage. Where did German language come from? What produced the German-speaking people?They searched among the origins and the dialects of a language. How did that people use its language for bodying forth its dreams and ancient myths? In search of the wild and natural ethnic soul This newpassion for the primitive meant the anonymous Volk. Brentano and Arnim who had compiled German folk songs gave a sophisticated editing of irregular, simple,shocking raw material into a less primitive, more faux-naïve state. As scholars, the Brothers Grimm were after truth, not beauty. However Wilhelm was involved more with shaping the stories from the Ur folk sources. We need to remember Napolean’s forces overran their hometown of Kassel while they created their folk edifice. Theyfelt their work might contribute to ‘the return of a better day’. They helped to forge a German national consciousness. The first edition of Grimms’ ‘Children’s Tales and Household Tales’ appeared during the last years of Napolean’s imperial career. The people as opposed to the critics loved it: a return to the very wells of literature in fresh language. A vision of a good old innocent Germany, in honest dialect.However the stories came from a universal sea of universal myth. The speakers brought out well the fact that the stories were not ‘essentially German’: it was all lands and all people. Primitive Germanic they saw, arose out of ancient Indo-European, although the stories are in various forms of German peasant language,they sprang out of a culture far older than Germany’s. The migrating Aryans brought their myths and gods and charms to north western Europe where they were conserved in the tales of the folk. Freud said folk tales contain ‘the dream of the human race’.The speakers rightly raised the nightmare quality of violence in the tales, however it was argued there is a severe moral logic to them. The reports are abstract and emblematic, not sensuously dwelt on. The horrors can be reversible. The evil is notof the order of Nazi iniquities, it is potential,symbolic,enclosed in ritual. The Grimm tales instil a profound sense of the pre-Christian moral order, with an inexorableapparatus of punishment. Children are introduced through these rituals into the horrible but necessary world of experience. Melvyn obviously was bothered about the ‘purity’ of the sources, how original they were and how much doctored, and the unhealthy later perversions of 'Volk' with Nazification. However this is notto forget their parallel perversion of Nietzsche’s philosophy,his aversion toanti-semitism. We should remember Germany felt overshadowed by French andclassical cultures and needed to reassert its own native folk traditions.

Martin Foreman Brothers Grimm
I wonder whether your team has any further thoughts as to the origins of themes and details in these Grimm tales? Recent archaeological work points to a couple of cases which may have a bearing.First, I would instance Rumplestiltskin, a tale wherein a moon-struck barrow-haunting dwarf with secret name - a pagan type if ever there was - sets a miller's daughter to spin gold from straw. Which task is accomplished to his discomfiture, and with the happy result of an advantageous match for our heroine.About 10 years ago, I concluded a paper dealing with grave goods of 6th-to-7th-century Anglo-Saxon women at Castledyke (North Lincs) with passing reference to this tale. The grave goods in question related to textile-working, a skill which appears to become more worthy of commemoration in graves of the 7th-century conversion period than hitherto. Grave goods are, by their nature, selected by relatives of the deceased to illustrate what they deem important - we do not bury ourselves! The cemetery as a whole also shows an increased preference for tabby-weave linen at this time.The making of fine linens - from vegetable fibre - is thought to have gained importance at this time, so, rather than being an impossible task, the spinning of gold from (flax)straw becomes apt metaphor for a domestic skill for which a more commercial day has dawned. That this should come about at a time that northern links with the wider world are re-made is also apt. The period is one in which emphasis on ascribed social or economic identity comes to outweigh the tribal or indiviual personas. So, might we fix the origins of Rumpo' in the changeable context of 6th-to-7th-century Germanic Europe? The Castledyke cemetery is fully presented by Drinkall and Foreman (1998); wherein P. Walton Rogers deals with fabrics and textile-tools.The on-air discussion also touched on foot-mutilation, here as a grisly aspect of the Cinderella tale. With this one the archaeological pedigree may be even longer: the Bronze Age Barrows of East Yorkshire include a distinct tradition of foot-mutilation or foot-burial, concentrated in the Garton Barrow Group (Mortimer 1905). A good example is presented exactly as it was excavated by Mortimer, as a centenary presentation by the Hull and East Riding Museum in 2005. It remains on show today.Folklorists: do you have any similar hares to be started, or suggestions to measure the depth of wells dipped by our anthologists?Thank you Melvyn, and contributors, for a most stimulating show.

Costar Pearmain - Brothers Grimm
In responding to a question from Melvyn about the Grimms and the birth of German nationalism, Marina Warner suggests that the later use of their work in some sense "travestied" [her word] the orginal stories. She explains, "The Grimms were politically heroic in many of their stands, they showed great integrity in resisting the return of despotism [...] but their work became used later to define a very spurious notion of a brave, heroic German identity [and was] consciously used by the Third Reich". This interpretation seems to me to overlook the extremely virulent anti-semitism present in a story like 'The Jew Among the Thorns' (1812). Politically heroic? Great integrity? Resisting the despotic? I don't think so. Pandering to and fostering their audiences' Jew hatred? Certainly. We can't really allow Marina's remarks to go uncontested. (And... just to be even handed about it... what a shame the BBC didn't show the Gaza appeal).

Nat - Great Vowel Shift
I'd love to see a show on the Great Vowel Shift. It's the sort of thing that's built for radio as it's inherently aural, and is tied into IOT topics like social history and literature. If not a show exclusively on this vowel shift, the subject of spoken English would be fascinating: is it true that Appalachian hillbillies sound the most like Shakespeare would have sounded? Can we even reconstruct how he spoke? (e.g., from rhymes that no longer work)

Andrew Campbell McChlery - Brothers Grimm
Great programme. Listening to this I think the absence of Christianity as a source of power in the world in the Grimm stories is interesting. Stories feature and celebrate folk traditions whereby the agencies of unattributable power are vested in a spiritual world which is not part of the Christian world view. Ironically this might be regarded as an assertion of rationalist secular values. The Christian audience is invited into a world which does not seem to depend on Jehovah. Is the audience being invited to enjoy their detachment from these superstitions, which by implication might include detachment from Christian credulity as well?Also, something might be implied about the development of psychology; folklore is cast as a carrier of universal psychological truthsFolk tales are often compared with dreams, and are often interpreted as clues to understanding human psychology. Simple people unencumbered with education and the clutter of modern life, are assumed to operate at a more elemental level, closer to the "true" nature of man. Interest in folklore might reflect the developing scientific interest in the way that seemingly mystical symbols can be understood as processes within a comprehensible mental system. So I guess I am saying that the popularity of seemingly irrational stories might reflect an increasingly secular and rationalistic context.

F Crompton-Roberts "The brothers Grimm"
How come no reference at all was made to the almost exactly contemporary "Der Struwwelpeter", the first children's comic, first published in 1845?

Myth Shifter, Brother's Grimm
I was really interested in this discussion and your reading list. However I was surprised that although the different treatment of females and males in the stories was noted, as was the metamorphosis of evil mothers into evil stepmothers and the incest factor, no-one mentioned the complete suppression of the predatory father figure in folk tales, who often also precipitates the flight from home of heroes and heroines. This would have produced a much more interesting and contemporary debate than Melvyn Bragg's unstandable but rather repetitive insistence on nationalism. Folk tales draw upon archetypes that represent important functions in our psyche, that cannot really be expressed or juxtaposed by other means. Maria Tatar's book "The Classic Fairy Tales" (not on your list) collects together in chapters consecutive versions of these tales, including Grimm versions, each introduced by an analysis of their development. I would recommend this book to anyone interested in the genre.

The Brothers Grimm
I was particularly interested in today's subject. As a child who was a prolific reader - even labels on jars etc - I could never read the Grimms' fairy tales. They always struck me as really creepy and left me feeling depressed. Even at age 7 years! I still feel the same, just listening to the discussion.Edith D

Torsten Schmiedeknecht - Brothers Grimm
Today's programme should have been called "Melvyn Bragg on German Nationalism". Despite the enlightened and mostly well informed contributions of the three panel members on the brothers Grimm in general, Mr. Bragg kept coming back to what he obviously thought had to be the message of the day - yet he failed to convince me that he actually has a deep enough knowledge of C18 and C19 Germany, both cultural and political. With his comment about the Grimm's admiration of the English language at the end of the programme and his failure to elaborate on their achievements as linguists I have a feeling that deep down inside Mr Bragg might be fostering some rather nationalist sentiments himself. Today's sample of Mr Bragg's performance really was journalism done the simplistic way. As a license payer I would have expected Mr Bragg to do his homework somewhat more thoroughly before embarking on a rather complex topic.

Paula Scott
As follow up to today s excellent programme, would be good to have time for psychological meaning of fairytales eg Jung s archetypes or Ml von Franz s publications.

Daniel - Ideas
I've been listening to your programme for two years now with great interest regardless of the actual topic discussed, be it history, science, literature, or any other. But recently I've been getting the feeling that the programme is stuck in the same realm of topics, getting narrower and narrower with time rather than broader. It's as if you run out of fresh ideas and chose to pursue topics similar to the ones already discussed or some aspects of them in more detail, instead of looking for them "outside the box". I have read the Have your say page and some people are complaining about the general Eurocentrism of the series, or, in my view, Western Eurocentrism. Sadly, this claim is largely true. I wonder whether we're going to hear a string of programmes about ideas from time and space not confined to the Western European experience. I do hope so.

Colm O'Liathain
You hit a lot of nails very squarely Jane. Swift was a humanitarian who in the end did not like people much! But we have to look at the times in which he lived both in England and Ireland. Ireland saw the Williamite/Jacobite war along with widespread poverty exacerbated by English policy on trade with Ireland and the Penal Laws which while they may not have been widely enforced were a sever restraint on the growth of an educated Catholic middle class.England at the time of his sojourn there was embroiled in the War of the Spanish Succession, in the politics of which Swift deeply embroiled himself ultimately to his significant disadvantage.His ambivalence whether in writing, politics or in his dealings with others rests in part in his highly ambivalent position in the societies of his time. He represents an example which became more common as the century wore on of the Anglo Irish man at home in neither place and seen as desperately trying to advance himself in England while at the same time nursing both grievances and inferiorities. Thackeray's Barry Lyndon is a prime example of how the Irish gentry were to be seen later in the century and in Thackeray's own lifetime.It is difficult to have a clear sense of Swift as a person. He was plainly congenial company as the letters to Stella illustrate. He certainly wore his religious calling lightly while in London. The same letters may be perspicacious about people but are hardly so about the politics of the time which often appear to Swift and perhaps they were on the level of personal quarrels. His reference to William Penn in "Stella" shows an unpleasant and arrogant streak which perhaps informs his writings. William Penn after all was nothing if not committed to both humanity and political ideals and was deeply involved in affairs in Ireland though his estates there and through the work of the Quakers in the country.Swift would be perhaps more persuasive as a person and humanist if his views on the state of Ireland had been more evident in London where their expression might have had more effect in ameliorating those conditions.There is no doubt however that his writings in Ireland do have a deep level of sincerity though they lack any real personal sympathy with those most affected by Ireland's plight.However at this point in the history of Ireland and England as well as the rest of Europe there was perhaps little to empathize with in the humanity with which he was daily acquainted.

jane - Swift
Veracity and history are not exactly bedmates but I've done a cursory reading up on Swift and feel that it isn't necessarily accurate to say that he was not a humanitarian. I always think it's much easier to 'love humanity' than to deal with the nitty gritty 'granular' level of individual folk ...and those Irish peasants (I wince at such a dismissive term) can't have been the most endearing. For some reason, I'm in defense of Swift. He was probably an intellectual humanitarian rather than an emotional one and also a pragmatist whose intelligent common sense, so thwarted in many directions, must have been deeply frustrating for him to embody 'though it forged creative avenues into his writings. We can try to empathize, 'though it is difficult, in our era, to imagine what those reduced times in Ireland must have been like - contraception, for instance, is taken for granted in our society - not to mention food! Swift (in an a-priori sort of way) would surely be well aware that Ireland ("The Island of Saints and Scholars"), had become an appalling anachronism, especially in relation to such previous civilizations as China, Egypt, Greece, Rome, Persia, Italy etc., which must have made the situation all the more dreadful. There could have been no real concept of the relatively hope filled, innovative future which managed to emerge, somewhat exponentially, within a few centuries of his time ie. our present day. It was pretty dire. The limitations imposed by both his internal and external worlds must have surely been excruciating. He seems to have been landed, in spite of himself, with some sort of incubus (or inner taskmaster) which thrust his nose to the gruelling grindstone of questioning right doing over wrong doing against the backdrop of his natural human temperament - again, not easy. It's enough to make anybody foul. It is always possible that alcohol made him unpleasant or that he suffered from painful gout or worse ....who knows. What caused the madness of his final years? If a part of his psyche possibly did encrypt sexual deviance into his writing, as someone remarked, it doesn't detract from the overall messages. (No doubt psychologists could have a field day, and pay their mortgages, on the back of such stuff.) Deep down, he was possibly more concerned about the posthumous continuation of his consciousness (soul) than of his name. I think I would have respected him deeply 'though not necessarily enjoyed his company, but that's irrelevant - it seems to me he was - whatever his foibles (or even because of them), a grand and very clever man. His 'darkness' was his 'light'.

brian murphy St. Jame's park
Dear Melvyn,I realise it is highly unlikely that you will get the opportunity to read this but nonetheless I want to tell you that I look forward to reading about the brief descriptions of your walk through St. Jaime's Park. I live in a nice little town outside Dublin called "Drogheda" (you can pronounce it if you drop the "g") but I envy you being able to walk through this wonderful Park whenever you please. My wife and myself try to get over to London to walk and jog through ANY of the beautiful parks in central London. Later on, to finish up in one of the "machine" free, real ale, old English pubs completes our day, enjoy your stroll, Brian.

Darwin
I'm a bit behind in my listening, but wanted you to know that your Darwin series is both exciting and inspiring. Well done. I never miss an episode of IOT or Start the Week. Thank you so much. Rick KennerlyVirginia Beach, VA USA

Swift on the Irish Language.
Swift's attitude to the "savage"Irish language was typical of the English of his time.After Greek and Latin that language was the first in Europe to be written down.For a century before English was written Ireland,"The Island of Saints and Scholars" was the most literate place on the planet.(Every solar and lunar eclipse from about 500AD to 1100 was recorded in Irish manuscripts..in Irish and Latin)."Ireland before the Viking Invasions" would make a good program topic.!!!

Nicholas Woodeson: Swift's Sympathy for the Devil
Our suspicion that a satirist has a secret sympathy for the worst impulses that he is supposedly repudiating is the special ingredient that makes good satire hot and spicy. Christopher Morris works in the same style as Swift. His work has got him into trouble precisely because it operates in that grey, murky area where it is no longer possible to adopt an unequivocally virtuous stance. And isn't Borat some strange bastard descendant of Gulliver?

jane - Jonathan Swift
I 'banter on' each week, bouncing off the schematic walls of my little world view. My area of expertise will never relate to this website so I'm tapping out this 'thank you' to John and Colm for their knowledgeable and useful input this week and to all those who do take the time to respond and share their knowledge. Colm's email addressed my simplistic thoughts about why Swift didn't just move to England if he found Ireland so unsatisfactory. There's a healthy synergy created between the programme and the 'Have your say' contributors - I enjoy reading all of the comments and find the informed ones really helpful. Thanks.

Colm O'Liathain
I am not sure that swift could ever rate and an Irish Nationalist or indeed a defender of the repressed Irish as per John's contribution. He lived in and was of his time and class i.e. the Anglo Irish and Anglican rather than Protestant Irish ascendancy.For that class the late 17th and early 18th centuries were highly conflicted both politically, economically and in religion. Swift saw the desperate poverty of the Catholic poor and in part understood its economic cause. However he appears to have had little empathy with the Irish Catholics and attributed their fate to their inherent nature. This was a common and self exculpatory view held by the English and indeed their colonial spawn in the 13 Colonies. As the programme makes clear cannibalism was the ultimate hallmark of savagery; it was attributed to Africans and Native Americans and even up to the time of the Great Hunger to the Irish during times of famine.In suggesting that the English eat Irish children he reflectively equates them with to their own notions of barbarity and savagery while dressing it up wonderfully with the idiom of the pamphlet solution and the aura of the emerging science of economics.Being of his class he felt uncertain in Ireland. The Anglo Irish of his time were composed not only of the Old Norman Irish families such as the Butlers (earls of Ormond who incidentally was the patron of Kilkenny College where Swift went to school), the Tudor/Elizabethan Anglo Irish and the latter day Plantationers who derived their lands from the 17th century wars and settlements which had led directly to the parlous state of the Irish catholics ever since. Ireland may have been subdued but even in 1729 it had not been pacified. The Anglo Irish lived in fear that the Irish would once again rebel with all the consequences that might follow as had happened in the Confederacy Wars.Swift reflects that state of uncertainty as well as an understanding of the economic consequences for his own class as well as the Irish Catholic poor of English policies and he excoriates England for those policies. But in doing so he remains tied to England both culturally and religiously. England was in his earlier days his hope of advancement within the Church and though the Deanery may in Ireland have been considered a significant and important post In England it counted for little.The Anglo Irish estates and the monies they raised for their landlords were themselves in a parlous economic state. England's economic policies towards Ireland prevented the very development that would have saved these estates from decline. The relationship of the owners and tenants was so fraught that improvement was night impossible in any event.When writing Gulliver and in almost all of his writings Swift is writing in my estimation about the impossibility of a resolution of the relationship between the two nations so that the various worlds that Gulliver encounters reflect aspects of the two and their conflicts (Lilliput and Blefescu etc.) His detachment is demonstrated of course when he elevates the horse to the position superior to that of man essentially damning both houses as irredeemable.Concerned with Ireland certainly but never in my view a nationalist.

A Modest Proposal
The contributors might have described Swift's mastery of form.In the tradition of Roman satire, Swift introduces the reforms he is actually suggesting by deriding them: "Therefore let no man talk to me of other expedients: Of taxing our absentees at five shillings a pound: Of using neither clothes, nor household furniture, except what is of our own growth and manufacture: Of utterly rejecting the materials and instrum