Have Your Say

Brave New World
Why are we unable to access this program? We are informed only that it is "temporarily unavailable."

Paulpic a Helot of trouble
Since Sparta we've moved from the old rule to the gold rule. But it still seems the undeserving live in fear that their underlings will level the playing field.

RADIATION | M. A. Cherian
I regret that in my last submission the sentence stating Maxwell’s conclusion that in a non-conducting medium, the velocity of propagation of electro-magnetic radiation, is inversely proportional to the square root of the dielectric and magnetic inductive capacities of the medium, got garbled by the unwitting use of an incorrect fond for internet transmission. The garbled part should have read: Maxwell concludes for light, c = 1/sqrt (ku), [ibid p.434], where k is the dielectric inductive capacity, and u the magnetic inductive capacity (permeability) of air. The values of k and u are found experimentally, and one is expressed as a ratio of the other. For air [only] for k=1, u =1/v2; for u=1, k=1/v2, in electrostatic and electromagnetic systems of measurements respectively. In either case c ≈ v [m/s], i.e. the speed of propagation of light is of the same order of magnitude, as the number of electrostatic units of electricity in one electromagnetic unit; both found by methods independent of his equations, [ibid p.435-6].

The Spartans - Duncan Nimmo
Melvyn's guests suggested that the 19th century broadly liked the Athenians and disliked the Spartans. What then should we make of Degas' well-known painting of about 1860, now in the National Gallery, "Young Spartans Exercising"? (A quick Google search brings up an image and numeerous discussions).

THEMISTOCLES- Sparta
Some important points missed by the panel: 1.As the militarisation of Sparta gained pace, all art disappeared. In the 8th and 7th century there were examples of art in pottery as well as poets. Alcman and Tyrtaeus are 7th century poets. Art and poetry became a disappearing act in the following centuries. Sparta was the antithesis of Athens. In Athens the process of democratisation proceed hand in hand with the birth of philosophy, the birth of historiography (Herodotus, Thucydides), and the birth of drama. This was not a coincidence; this was the function of democracy. In Sparta, the opposite happened. No philosophy, no historiography no drama indeed the tendency was for no art. The panel forgot to ask why do we know of Spartans from Athenian sources(Thucydides)? Because historiography (rather than mere annals) was a democratic phenomenon. Have you ever heard of history written by the defeated and not by the victors? That was the case of the Peloponnesian war.2. Spartans were trained constantly in military skill. May I ask what for? The Spartans did not like wars in general. They could never put themselves fighting in distant lands like Alexander. Their preoccupation was to secure their surroundings, not to invade Asia. They were very reluctant to help Athens (e.g. Marathon) not only out of dislike, but also because they did not want to leave their city in numbers. The greatest application of their military skill was not on the expansion of their rule (as would happen with the Persians or Alexander) but on the oppression of the Helots (fellow Greek Dorians) who through their labour kept the Spartans work-free and dedicated to their military games. The fear of Helot revolt kept the Spartans at bay, and although the Helots were their slaves, one cannot avoid the conclusion that the Spartans too were the slaves of their fear of Helots. Don’t forget that the only professional Greek army, took a quarter of a century to defeat the Athenian democrats. 3.The Demos of Sparta (the assembly of the hoplites) was a joke. They were gathering usually to vote on war, in full uniform and were voting by the sound of the shields. The side that could make the loudest noise was victorious. There is not a single recorded instant of a member of demos talking questioning or arguing. They were just there in numbers. The respect for law was not a Spartan phenomenon. The same could be seen in the Athenian city, but while in the latter the respect for law could be sourced to the Athenian citizens voting for it, in Sparta it was just blind obedience and tradition. Yet it is important to realise that even in Sparta the hoplites had a voice. Why? Because, like in all Greek cities, it was the hoplites that fought the wars. There was not a Monarch of the Persian kind (with his own army). The citizens were the soldiers, hence the aristocracy had to make concessions. 4. The Spartans were part of the Greek Dorian Tribe that invaded and destroyed totally the Greek Mycenaen civilisation (a monarchy). The destruction was so complete that a Greek Diaspora was formed away from the old centres. They were free from the old monarchic ties, poor (they could not afford slaves to start with), and they looked for agricultural land to survive. Where they settled they distributed the land randomly (on a lottery basis), creating an anachronism of small family farms, that was the material basis (together with the discovery of the alphabet) of what was to follow (leading to democracy). Even later, when the family farmers used slaves, they never stopped working, the slaves were their helpers. The Spartans on the other hand enslaved a whole people to stop working. They ended up existing in order to exist. Life is more than that.

Sean McHugh Thermopylae
May I suggest that people consider the likelihood that the Three Hundred at Thermopylae were NOT on a kamikazi battle to the death. Such a strategy would have been thought of as against eunomia, against good order. Why were the Spartans there?There can be no doubt that had Xerxes been killed the Persian Army would have retreated back to Persia. We should remember that Spartan military training was in commando-style raids as well as in battlefield manoeuvres. The Spartans did carry out a raid on the Persian camp but were thwarted when they were in sight of Xerxes' tent by Medising Greeks fighting for the Persians.That raid is in the sources. It should be placed against this myth of suicidal bravery as being a Spartan ideal.

Re: In Our Time - 'Sparta': 19th November 2009.
An excellent and fascinating program!

Radiation and relativity theory: Dr. Akira Kanda
It was Maxwell's equation of electromagnetic waves which gave birth to Einstein's relativity theory. According to Maxwell, the speed of light is determined by nothing but the impedance of the medium through which the light travels. It has been unnoticed that this contradicts classical optics which asserts that the speed if light depends upon the wave length. This makes us wonder if Einstein's assumption that the speed of light is strictly c in vacuum. The wave equation of light is parameterised by the impedance. So, if it fails for non vacuum medium, it also fails for the vacuum. This troubled assumption of Einstein seems to manifest as inconsistency of the theory of relativity. For example, 1. assume a train runs on a track. Assume the train marks the track at the front and tail at the same moment. An observer on the ground will measure the length of the train as the distance between these two points on the track. However, according to the length contraction, he should measure the length of the train shorter. For those who question the simultaneity issue, let me point out that as Einstein correctly assumed, we can place synchronised clocks along the track and the operator at the front and the tail of the train can mark the track at agreed reading of the clocks on the track. 2. We can consider Special Relativity theory (SR) as a logical extension of an axiomatic system {d=vt, Principle of Relativity (PR), Principle of the Propagation of Light (PPL)} as Einstein presented. As in any textbook on SR, we can deduce Galilean Transformation (GR) applying PR to d=vr. It is d=vt looked at from other perspective. From the axioms of SR, Einstein deduced Length Contradiction (LC) and Time Dilation (TD). Then applying LC and TD to GT, he obtained Lorentz Transformation (LT). So, in summary, he showed that SR as an axiomatic system {d=vt, PR, PPL} deduces both GT and LT. However this simply means that SR is inconsistent. 3. Even LT itself seems to be invalid. It is a transformation which defines time and length from a parameter v, which Einstein claims to be the speed mutual to inertial frames. Then the question arises on how this speed is defined. As Einstein claims in SR, there is no classical space time. So, this v must be relativistic speed. But this relativistic speed defines relativistic time and length. So, we have come a full circle. This is what commoners call vicious circle and we all know that we define nothing through vicious circle. 4. Indeed, Einstein correctly claimed that the mutual speed of inertial frames can be measured as follows: Consider a body which is rest in a frame inertial to us. In our frame at time t1 and t2, plot the locations P1 and P2 of the body moving in our frame. Then v=d/t where t=t2-t1 and d=the distance between P2 and P1. This is applicable to the famous muon decay problem. This body can be considered as the muon falling to sea level. Let t' and d' be relativistic version of t and d. Then according to Einstein, we can measure the speed of the muon as d/t' and the muon can measure the speed of us approaching as d'/t. This is how he explains why the muon can reach the sea level despite its too short life span. It is odd that none of d/t', d'/t, d'/t' are equal to v which is also the measure speed of the muon. I have pointed out contradictions in SR which emernates from the questionable assumption of the speed of light being constant c. There are many other causes for the inconsistency of SR.

jane - radiation - constants
Thinking about radiation does bring to mind the huge subject of constants in nature. I did find an interesting article (possibly for the less informed, like myself) by the cosmologist John Barrow. In response to the '2/10' comment - I should think that Melvyn is far too busy with his most interesting life to have any inclination to pose for yearly updates on his website face.

Radiation
This was a remarkable amalgamation of all the history behind the scientific discoveries,the movers and shakers whofounded the basis of the unification ofthe major laws of nature,with a list of dates of discoveries,milestones ofthe journey,experiments of the'project'along the way,major scientists.I didn't get it the first time,I made notes,listened again,worked out thedifferences between 'radiation' and'radioactivity',alpha,beta&gamma rays'ether' and 'vacuum','red end' and 'blue end','field theory of electromagnetism',when light becomesa 'particle' and when it becomes a 'wave','longwave'and 'shortwave'.What beautiful compression and a great story The self discipline ofscience cleanses the system and giveseach word an exact meaning.Joy.

Georgina Read
i would like an IOT podcast that included the discussing the ideas of Heinrich Wölfflin, the art historian. thank you for the opportunity to put my view.

Mark Burbidge. Correction - Electromagnetism
I'm a physicist, and am listening to the 'Radiation' episode.About 20 minutes in, someone says that a constant current can't produce a magnetic field. This is incorrect.Regards,

Radiation (and relativity)
I do not believe in a *physical* aether, but that down to my belief that light is a metaphysical, not a physical phenomenon. Echoing Trevor Morris (below), the whole notion that Special Relativity proved anything about the transit of radiation is nonsense. The Michelson-Morley experiment, and all optical experiments (noting, here, the undoubted Sagnac effect) are fully consistent with Ritzian emission theory, which is itself incompatible with Special Relativity. I also agree with Peter S. about the need to recognise Tesla, the greatest inventor, at least in the field of electronics, of his era (and some would put it in stronger terms yet).

Radiation
To Arthur Butterworth:Bohr said,'When it comes to atoms,language can be used only as in poetry.The poet,too,is not nearly so concerned with describing facts as with creating images'.What lies below the visible world is alwaysimaginary...a play of images.There is no other way to talk about the invisible.When we step through the gateway of the atom,we are in a worldour senses cannot experience..a way that things are put together which wecannot know:we only try to picture it by analogy,a new act of imagination.Butall our ways of picturing the invisibleare metaphors,likenesses that we snatchfrom the larger world of eye,ear&touch.We make models of how the building blocks link and act together.The models are meant to show,by analogy, how matter is built up.However,as weknow facts do exist in this realm asarchitectural images come from the concrete world of our senses.A lot of facts come from evidence that comesfrom experiments.What is found has to stand up to reality and testing.

radiation
whew! that was a fascinating and bracing one. for the first time i sort of understood where einstein was coming from (killing the ether!) and how, by making light/electricity the universal constant, something else had to give. and how motors work! and radios! and x-rays! and a/c...and how edison rode these insights into inventions and...and...and...great one!ken krimstein/nyc

Peter Household - Posts from studio guests.
It’s all too rare for the studio guests to contribute to this comments page, and whenever they do, like Jim Al-Khalili below, it’s invariably very welcome. May I ask Phil Tinline the Producer to actively encourage them to do so in future?

RADIATION | M. A. Cherian
The attribution of an absolute speed of light ‘c’ as a fundamental constant, in air, in ‘empty space’ or vacuum irrespective of the motion of the observer, to Maxwell’s equations of electromagnetic radiation is unfounded. A value for c in air does not fall out or pop out of his equations of the electromagnetic field, but is an ingenious deduction based on the equivalence and the analogy stated below and comparison with independent experimental values of c and v (the ratio of the dielectric to electromagnetic inductive capacity of air). As a reference value c is not determined from v. In measurements where the measured values are close together, a constant value is usually taken for granted.In the state of the art of his day, "…our theory [of electromagnetic radiation] agrees with the undulatory theory [of light] in assuming the existence of a medium [aether, - to explain action at a distance] which is capable of becoming a receptacle of two forms of energy", Maxwell [‘Electricity and Magnetism’, 1904, Vol.2, p.432]. "It is manifest that the velocity of light and the velocity of propagation of electromagnetic disturbances in a non-conducting medium are quantities of the same order of magnitude. Neither of them can be said to be determined as yet with such a degree of accuracy as to enable us to assert that one is greater or less than the other. “…our theory asserts that these two quantities are equal and assigns a physical reason for this equality", ibid p.436. [The physical reason is, 'The properties required of the medium for transmission (aether) are identical for both'].Both the constant speed of light as a proxy function from v, and the electromagnetic structure of light are indirect conclusions from Maxwell's equations. Making stated assumptions, from his equations of the electromagnetic field, in air, ignoring the effect of gravitation, by analogy with equations of similar form relating components of rate of strain to the components of stress for incompressible elastic solids, after Poisson/Stokes, Maxwell concludes for light, c = sqrt(κu)-1, [ibid p.434], where κ is the dielectric (electrostatic) inductive capacity, and u the magnetic inductive capacity (permeability) of air. The values of κ and u are found experimentally, and one expressed as a ratio of the other. For air [only] for κ=1, u =1/v*2; for u=1, κ=1/v*2, in electrostatic and electromagnetic systems of measurements respectively. In either case c ≈ ν [m/s], i.e. i) the speed of propagation of light is of the same order of magnitude as ii) the number of electrostatic units of electricity in one electromagnetic unit; both found by methods independent of his equations, [ibid p.435-6]. An absolute numerical value does not emerge as the ratio, sum, product or other combination of two unequal real (infinite decimal) numbers as measures of the two heuristic concepts, space and time. Units of measurement are no more absolute than their ratios. The Special Theory makes space, time and space-time variables while imagining c, which is a ratio of space and time as absolute. A Light Number e.g. 1.0001, 0.9999, as the ratio of the best estimate under experimental conditions to the 299792458 m/s, the idealised or attributed value of c, is derivable with greater applied corrections to the higher frequency range, more prone to error in measurement and calibration, in gravitational, and other accelerated fields,

Archive availability
IOT is a wonderful resource for travelers, insomniacs, would-be and real students and intellectuals etc. In this day of mp3 players, surely you should make programs available as downloadable mp3 files. This treasure of knowledge needs to be made widely available. I would happily pay for collections of older programs or on a per show basis. I've been listening for a long time but as a Canadian, I feel like a freeloader.Norm in Vancouver

Rita Parry The Feel of London
As an ex-Londoner, Ialso enjoy the aftermath "talk"from Melvin as he walks along Regent Street and the nature notes from St.James Park. He is able to bring it all back to me. Thank You.

Trevor Morris - Radiation and relativity
To JOHN ARCHER - thanks for your comments below. The only modern book I know which sets out relativity concisely in physical, Lorentzian terms is "The Logic of Special Relativity" by S J Prokhovnik (Cambridge 1967, and University Of New South Wales 1978). Prokhovnik was following the ideas set out by Geoffrey Builder in a series of papers in the Australian Journal of Physics in 1957 - 59. Richard Feynman came close in his "Lectures in Physics" (1963?) Vol II Sec. 21.6 where he shows "how naturally Maxwell's equations lead to the Lorentz Transformations" using the mechanism of retarded potentials. The only constraint needed for the principle of relativity to hold is that nothing can overtake a light signal in a vacuum. Poincare knew this in 1904 (see the famous "St Louis" lecture) but unfortunately neither he nor Lorentz ever seem to have made much of it. The key philosophical point is that atoms and radiation can obey only physical constraints: they know nothing of human-derived "principles"!

John Naylor / Discovery of Radiation
It’s always a mistake to ask practicing scientists about the history of their subject because, with few exceptions, they only know what Feynman called (in the introduction to his QED lectures), the “physicists history of physics, which is almost never correct.” The real story is always more nuanced and interesting than the myth, which is why any discussion about the history of science should be left to the historians, who have read the original literature.Here are a few historical points that listeners may find interestingConcerning the ether:Einstein objection to the ether was a criticism of Maxwell’s assumption that the ether provided an absolute frame of reference for the velocity of light. Einstein knew of the Michelson Morley experiment but it played no part in his thinking on the ether and he made no reference to it in his paper on the Special Theory of relativity. He wrote: “The introduction of a ‘light ether’ will prove superfluous, inasmuch as the view to be developed here will not require ‘space at absolute rest’ endowed with special properties.” From: ‘Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies.’About Herschel and RitterHerschel “discovered” infrared as a result of telescopic observations of the sun. He had to use filters of different colours with his eyepiece to avoid damaging his eyes and noticed that “when I used some [filters], I felt a sensation of heat, though I had but little light; while others gave me much light, with scarce any sensation of heat.” The follow-up experiments, using prisms and thermometers, which he described in great detail in a series of papers published in the Philosophical Transactions in 1800, convinced him that he had discovered a new form of radiation, which was unrelated to light.On hearing about Herschel’s experiment, Ritter, an associate of Oersted and like him a Naturphilosoph hostile to Newtonian mathematical science, surmised that there should be cold counterpart to Herschel’s heat rays at the far end of the visible spectrum. Naturphilosophs believed that all phenomena are polar in nature (eg positive & negative charge, N & S magnetic poles, brightness and darkness in the case of light) and that their action was through ‘conflict’ between opposites. Incidentally, Oersted believed that was electromagnetism was due to an ‘electric conflict’. His experiment was only partially successful: it was Ampère who successfully carried out the experiment in which a magnetic needle sets itself at right angles to a current carrying wire. Oersted’s original experiment was affected by the earth’s magnetic field, for which he made no allowance.And it was that Cassandra of British science, the polymath Thomas Young, who was the first to suggest that the rays discovered by Herschel and Ritter were forms of light wave, differing from only in the frequency of vibration. To demonstrate that Ritter’s rays were waves, in 1803 Young created an image of Newton’s rings on a sheet of paper impregnated with silver chloride. His suggestion was ignored.About Young’s wave theory of light:The story that Young’s wave theory of light was violently opposed by the scientific establishment of the day is misleading. The problem was threefold: first, the leading mathematical physicists in those days were all French, and their successful mathematical development of Newtonian physics had convinced most of them that nature is corpuscular and that all interactions between corpuscles is gravitational. The Newtonian faction in the Institute de France repeatedly set topics for prize essays in optics in the hope that it would attract corpuscular accounts of optical phenomena. When Fresnel submitted his essay on diffraction in 1819, the judges ignored the wave theory it was based on and awarded him the prize for his mathematical derivations and the experiments!Secondly, there were no mathematical physicists in Britain at that time who could have understood Young’s ideas, let alone passed judgement on them. And thirdly, the vicious attack on Young and his wave theory in the Edinburgh Review, was anonymous a

Mike Waller Melvyn's e-mails
If Melvyn does not improve the presentation of his e-mails I will have no choice but to report him to "The Sun"[:-)]

Nicholas Richards: Scopenhauer's obit. on wife
Schopenhauer tersely commented 'obit anus, abit onus'on the death of his wife. Pace Melvyn in the e-mail: Anus (with a short a) is the usual Latin word for old woman, not a loose word. It differs in vowel and declension from the other word we have borrowed. Schop's obit. was cruel, but not gross.

Radiation
Nice picture of a young Melvyn... Program - rambling to say the least. Sometimes the subject is dealt with well, like last week's offering, but this was a shambles. There was little clarity or focus and despite Melvyn's attempts to control the chronology, it seemed all over the place. I just found the guests dry and sterile in the way they dealt with the subject 2/10, sorry!

Max Wallis - Faraday's insight on Fields and Aethe
Michael Faraday would have been happy with Carole saying that changing “stresses in spacetime (which isn't the aether) would be gravitational radiation” (not mythical gravitons). But unhappy with her saying e/m waves are photons. Faraday’s great leap was envisaging space-filling e/m fields, so there is no problem with seeing e/m radiation as ripples of such fields, propagating of course as Maxwell’s equations describe.Einstein’s own acknowledgement to Faraday in the Times of 4 Feb.1929 is worth reading:By invention of the aether “space itself had been brought to life...light as a dynamical process undergone by space itself”. The insight came from Faraday whose concept of the field “rendered unnecessary the idea of action at a distance” and led to “the bold idea that fields might detach themselves from the bodies producing them and speed away through space as free fields; this was his interpretation of light”.

Dermod O'Reilly
Dear Phil Tinline (Producer, In Our Time) "Of course a steady electric current produces both an electric field and a magnetic field – after all, that is what an electromagnet is (a DC current flowing through a coil)"Um... I'm afraid current (charge flowing or otherwise moving) doesn't produce an electric field, an electric field arises from the presence of charge, moving or not.Like I said before, this stuff is widely misunderstood... and it does actually matter!

Phil Tinline (Producer, In Our Time) - Radiation
Thanks to everyone who has commented on yesterday's programme. I mentioned the point about steady currents producing electromagnetic fields to Jim al-Khalili yesterday, who writes: "Apologies to those listeners who pointed out my simple mistake. Yes, I hold my hand up to this. It was sloppy. Of course a steady electric current produces both an electric field and a magnetic field – after all, that is what an electromagnet is (a DC current flowing through a coil). What I meant to say and what was in my mind (and no excuse that it was live radio as it’s not like I haven’t been on the programme many times before) was that a steady current will not produce electromagnetic radiation, or a propagating disturbance in the field. Only a changing current can do this, and that is the only way to induce a secondary electric current. So, while it is true that only a changing magnetic field will produce an electric current, for instance by moving a wire through the magnetic field, the reverse is not true." I'd like to stress that - as Jim says - the programme was live. With the exception of the handful of editions that go out around public holidays, it has been live for the last eleven years and will continue to be so. Best wishesPhil

Dermod O'Reilly
Many contributors have recognised the howler of "no magnetic field from a steady current" but another shortcoming was failure to distinguish sufficiently between radioactive (particle) and electromagnetic (EM) radiation. The two are easily distinguished; particles always travel below the speed of light, EM always at the (local) speed of light. Speeding particles interact with magnetic and electric fields, EM (photons) don't. Not emphasising these distinctions rendered the programme below standard. The mistake is commonly made; almost all non-specialists make it when considering the Sun heating the Earth, making very significant errors in their calculations.The 19th century physicists made wonderful advances with wave models of EM radiation but the 20th century photon model must replace waves to avoid serious errors in matters as mundane as radiative heat transfer.

Steve - Radiation
Herschel is represented as experimentally placing his thermometer beyond the red end of the spectrum.In fact, he was projecting the spectrum onto one of the whitewashed walls of his kitchen with the prism placed in the kitchen window, and measuring the temperature of the red end. The door-bell rang and he left to give a music lesson to his next pupil. An hour later he returned to the experiment. The sun had moved and the thermometer was no longer in the red light. BUT THE TEMPERATURE ON THE THERMOMETER WAS HIGHER THAN BEFORE. A few simple tests showed there were invisible rays beyond the red-end of the spectrum (infra-red) causing the temperature change. (What was believed to be) the famous prism) was on display in the Science Museum last month - on loan from the Herschel museum. It closely resembled the style of manufacture illustrated in Newton's 'Opticks'.

radiation
I am surprised that none of the physicistson your Nov. 11th show on radiation mentioned the Michelson-Morley experiment in reference to when the nonexistence of the luminiferous aether was established. This experiment was performed in 1887, 18 years before Einstein's contribution (credited in the show with disproving the existence of the aether), and did in fact completely invalidate the concept of the aether.

John Archer - Radiation + Aether
To TREVOR MORRIS: Your contribution below was fascinating. I have never yet seen an exposition of relativity that didn't finally indulge in arm-waving of some sort or another just to get the equations down quickly. I know physics isn't mathematics (pace Feynmann who is, of course, right) but the hair-splitting attitudes inculcated in one whose background is that of pure mathematics are hard to break. You raise the kind of issues I would very much like to see confronted head on. Do you have any links or references? Thank you.

Julian Hills: dark red radioactivity
Black and White photographic emulsions show red as dark and blue as light hence the need for red filters with silver nitrate emulsions.

carole -- radiation
One poster seems to think stresses in the aether could explain em radiation.They wouldn't -- stresses in spacetime (which isn't the aether) would be gravitational radiation, not em radiation.Radio works just like any other particle traversing the vacuum. An electron gun produces electrons which can traverse a vacuum, a radio antenna produces radio-frequency photons which can traverse a vacuum. Em radiation only looks weird if you insist on thinking as em waves like water ripples, and ask what is doing the rippling.

Paulpic notFaraday
So, if every point in space has a field strenght; wouldn't it mean that there's no empty space? And without the void how can there be room for movement? No wonder I'm stuck.

Arthur Butterworth - "Radiation"
All such programmes are absolutely fascinating, but the big question for me is always: "How do scientist even begin to "see" - if that indeed is the word - such invisible things as atoms, nuclei, neutrons, and so on. How, for instance did they come to "know" such a thing existed as the double-helix ? What leads such intelligent people to have an inkling that such invisible things exist (even if they could be seen through a microscope). Let me reinforce what others have said: this is one of the few remaining sane programmes on radio; fulfilling Reith's visionary ideal. For the rest radio now seems almost utterly trivialised and without purpose. Arthur Butterworth

James scott Each Weeks' Topic
I enjoy the aftermath "talk" from Melvin as he escapes from the studio into the fresh air and his comments on the prog and contributors. It cannot be easy for them to break up their thoughts into bite sized chunks.

Dermot O'Dwyer - Please restore In our Time to BBC
I listen to In our time every week it is my one essential radio program. I listen to it on an internet radio using BBC Radio 4's "on demand" service. Unfortunately this service has not been reliable for the last few months, particularly for the In our Time program. I am sure that there are thousands of listeners world wide who are as disapointed as I am (the message boards support me in this). Please restore this excelent program to the On demand system if that is possible. Many thanks for all the great programs over the years.Yours faithfully,Dermot O'Dwyer

Peter S - Discovery of Radiation
Sirs,I love this programme. But, I was extremely disappointed that I heard nothing meaningfull included in this programme from Melvyn and colleagues about Nicola Tesla's major contribution to the electromagnetism story, radio etc. A very sad state of affairs. The establishment continues to divert/perpetuate their lack of recognition and respect for this fantastic genius "of our times". Lets maybe hear a dedicated program on "The Tesla story" - the man - the great electromagnetic innovator and without whom we would have no electricity in our homes, radio or many other modern gadgets - some innovations still to see the light of day!! Keep it up Melvyn & guests

jane - Mark Jackson
I reckon your technology must be better than mine. I hope it is... or I'll be 'tarred with the same brush' next week! Also...I really feel for 'one of the contributors' who's probably regretting that he wasn't a bit more explicit. As if the pressure of live radio weren't enough, the erudition of many of the listeners must be pretty daunting. That's why I not only take my hat off, but bow deeply to all the participants of this programme. Sharing expertise under considerable pressure is one thing, but taking on the discomfiting risk of humiliation in today's value system is quite another. These rarefied few are not amongst the feeble! Best wishes Jane

Geoffrey H. Grayer - In Our Time, today
Well, it seems that I was the first of many to report Jim Al-Khalihi's error. So will we get a correction and apology for the repeat? And how is it that the other two (or even three) persons present did not correct him? I take it the programme was recorded - it could have been edited.

Wilf James - Radiation
I think that Radiation was too extensive to cover in one programme.I regret that there was no clear difference made between magnetism and electromagnetism. Magnetism is static and operates over a limited field area. Electromagnetism is radiationEinstein and Faraday did not like the Ether but Einstein cheated by calling the space Spacetime. The fact that Spacetime (or Ether) cannot be detected by present methods does not prove that it does not exist. It is a medium that can be stressed by gravity as seen in gravitational lensing by one galaxy nearer us than a further one and magnetism causes a stress that splits spectrum lines. I think that if a thing can be stressed so that it its properties change, it must exist. Ether (or Spacetime) makes explanations of electromagnetic propagation simpler to understand. The alternate stressing of the Ether near a radio transmitting antenna offers a way to explain how a radio wave leaves the antenna to spread around. The alternative way to explain radio is to presume that an antenna radiates Planck packets as radio photons. As gravitational stress in Einstein's Spacetime can be observed, I presume that radio oscillations in a transmitting antenna do much the same. If Spacetime is stressed in an oscillatory manner, that oscillatory stress can influence a receiving antenna, making an explanaion of how radio works much easier. If there is no Ether or Spacetime as a medium for propagation in space, one must presume that radio works like Harry Potter's magic.

simon edwards electromagnetism
Did I hear a contributor say that steady currents do not produce magnetic fields?

Jeff Morris - In Our Time, today
What a BIG mistake one of the contributors made, saying "a steady current will not produce a magnetic field"!

Anders
As a researcher in medical radiation physics and huge fan of In Our Time I was slightly disappointed that a program billed “The discovery of Radiation” focused so completely on electromagnetic radiation and rushed past other forms of radiation and radioactivity so quickly. Dare I suggest that you consider a program on Nuclear Medicine or even wider Medical Imaging (including MRI etc)? I think that would serve very well to help people get a more complete view of radioactivity and the incredible uses we can put it to today. Concepts like SPECT and PET-cameras etc are quite easy to explain, especially on a program like In Our Time that dares to spend the time required on a subject.

Jane - radiation
Oh I love this programme. We had the best morning. At about ten to nine I had the idea to drive through the countryside to listen to IOT so I primed my son with a very short explanation on radiation (I teach him at home and a lot goes in by osmosis), threw some clothes at him and off we went. As the sun shone on the autumnal colours and the radio crackled and cleared with the changing terrain, the whole thing came to life. We then enjoyed the effect of radiation on our crumpets at a little cafe we frequent. How magical was that midst the general madness and mayhem. What came to mind was the exponential nature of science and its fruits (or consequences) and a quotation I saw the other day: 'The illiterate of the 21st cantury will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn' (I think I'd personally count in those who can't read and write but we get the drift!). To digress towards the IOT eclecticism, I've just got a book from the library called "Embracing the Wide Sky" (Emily Dickinson's 'The brain is wider than the sky') by Daniel Tammet, an autistic savant,...'a profound and provocative book that will transform our understanding of and respect for every kind of mind'. It covers all sorts and I'd highly recommend it. Thank you to all concerned for this accessible, informative and thoroughly enjoyable programme...the sanity it brought (yet again) was so welcome. Best wishes as always.

Mark Jackson
I've a great fan of this programme and enjoy the vast range of fascinating subjects that Melvin Bragg covers. However I find difficult to concentrate on the subject matter when, I assume its Melvin himself as it happens regularly, starts to rattle his change in his pocket. Has anybody else noticed this? The effect is compounded by Radio 4's insistence to pan the host and guests, widely across the stereo spectrum. So that you have the guests mostly coming out of the left speaker and Melvin and his rattling change in the right speaker. I find the effect is worse when I listen in the car as I'm sitting much closer to the right speaker than the left. Change rattling aside "In Our Time" is not the only Radio 4 programme that mixes the sound in this manner. Why is this? Most mornings I listen to Chris Moyles on Radio 1 until 9am and then switch to Radio 4 at 9am. Chris Moyles often has several guest plus 2 or three of his co-hosts talking at the same time but I've never noticed the same problem. Also the difference in volume level between R1 and R4 even when they are just talking is vast. Surely the BBC must have some kind of internal audio standard which are supposed to broadcast to?

Malcolm Hine electro magnetism
During todays "in our time" 12/11/09 a guest on the programme incorrectly stated that only a fluctuating electric current creates a magnetic field. I can remember as a child wrapping wire round a nail and connecting each end to a battery to make a magnet. Pperhaps he meant to say that only a fluctuating magnetic field will induce current in an electrical circuit

Richard Bell - The Discovery of Radiation
One of the contributors said that an electric current that is not changing will not not be creating an electric field. This is not true: such a current does create a magnetic field, also unchanging. I understand what point he was aiming to stress, but he over-simplified. His target point is, as Faraday discovered, that only a changing magnetic field will induce an electromotive force which in turn will cause a current to flow. This is why electric power systems preferably use alternating rather than direct current. A transformer, which is a most useful device converting electric power at high voltage and low current (for transmission economically over a long distance) to (nearly) the same power at lower voltage and higher current (or vice-versa), only works on alternating current. Direct current, however, has important specialized uses.

Anton T "Radiation"
The following statement was made by one of the cotributors to today's discussion," a magnetic field is only produced by a changing(i.e. alternating) electric current flowing through a conductor. I'm sure he would like to correct that statement as any 5th form physics student knows that a dc current flowing in a conductor produce both a n electric and magnetic field.He surely meant a "radiating electromagnetic field"?

Trevor Morris - Radiation
I look forward to the day when the conventional wisdom gets past repeating Einstein's 1905 dismissal of the ether model. By 1920 Einstein himself said "space without ether is unthinkable", in the context of general relativity (GR) and gravitation. GR implies that the local speed of light depends on gravitational potential, and is not absolutely fixed at the free-space maximum value. What remains unknown is exactly how space itself fixes the speed of light and other electromagnetic radiation. The maths are there: the physics is not, yet. I was glad that at least the speakers did not invoke the famous Michelson-Morley (M-M) experiment as "proving" the non-existence of ether (i.e. the property of space that uniquely fixes the speed of light everywhere). Their experiment was in fact misconceived. They did not know as we do now that the dimensions of atoms and therefore of solid matter are themselves fixed by electromagnetic forces which can travel at no more than the speed of light. Thus the lengths of bits of their apparatus would be affected by motion through space/ether just as much as the speed of light would, precisely cancelling out to zero any visible effect they hoped to see, as worked out by FitzGerald, Lorentz etc at the time. So an ether-type theory in which there IS a preferred frame of reference for all e-m radiation propagation would, we know now, predict the null result of the M-M experiment. That preferred frame has recently been revealed as the common rest-frame of (a) the cosmic black-body radiation (CBR), and (b) on average of the apparently receding distant galaxies. On such a model, the physically absurd assertion that the speed of light IS the same past any moving observer is replaced by the fact that the MEASURED speed of light is a constant for all observers, regardless of how they or the source of light are moving. The real asymmetries caused by motion relative to the preferred frame (the only one in which light really moves isotropically) are cancelled out just as in the M-M experiment, leaving only the measured asymmetry of the CBR and the apparent average recession of galaxies.

David Barnett, Ph.D. - Radiation - emotional conte

Melvyn brought up the negative association in the public mind of the word "radiation" which is at odds with its use in science.

A similar thing happened to the word "nuclear" and probably for the same reason. The benefits of "Magnetic Resonance Imaging" manifold in medicine. But the physical effect being used was taught to me as "Nuclear Magnetic Resonance."

There are other magnetic resonance phenomena which could, in principle, be used for imaging. I wonder whether the acceptance of M.R.I. would be as great if the P.R. boys had kept the "N" and billed it as "Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Imaging"?

David Barnett, Ph.D. - Radiation - a correction

An erroneous statement was made about electromagnetism which confused the Faraday discovery and that of Oersted:

Oersted showed that a steady current in a wire would deflect a compass needle. The "lines of force" are circles around the current carrying wire.

Faraday showed that while a steady magnetic field had no effect on a static wire, a changing magnetic field or moving a wire in a magnetic field could produce a current in the wire.

History of radiation
Excellent and very clear explanations from each of the scientists. I did not study physics at school so all the subject was new to me but it gave me a wonderful education about aspects of science I never thought I would know or understand. Many thanks to Melvin and all the scientists.

Angela Benson - Radiation and Radioactivity
Surely Christian Huygens, a Dutch physicist of the 17th century and a contemporary of Isaac Newton, propounded the wave theory of light before Thomas Young?I would like to have heard more about radioactivity - the differing dangers of alpha, beta and gamma particles and about half-life. What determines the half-life of a radioactive element? How can when a particular particle decays be truly random? Are radioactive substances with long half-lives always more dangerous than substances with short half-lives?But, as always, a very interesting programme. My thanks to all involved in its production!

caroline clark
The programme on radiation was a wonderfully clear exposition and my only regret, as so often, was that it did not have a little more time. Nevertheless, Melvyn keeps the ball rolling smoothly. IOT is always a delight and an education. I wish there were more like it.

Radiation
a constant current DOES create a magnetic field, contrary to what is being said on the programme.(A transformer needs AC because it needs a changing current to cause a changing magnetic field to cause a changing current, but any current causes a magnetic field, whether changing or not).

Sean C - Magnetic field around a constant current
Interesting program.I'm sure I heard one of the guests state that a changing electric current in a wire is required to produce a magnetic field. This is not true! A constant current in a straight wire produces a magnetic field in a circular shape around the wire.

Geoffrey H. Grayer BSc PhD
I could hardly believe my ears whan I heard one of your eminent physicists say that a constant electric current did not give rise to a constant magnetic field! Oh yes it does!

rory munster
during the latest programme it was briefly mentioned that the anabaptists were betrayed and that this was what brought about the end of the munster siege.it would have been nice for melvyn to have let the panel expand on this.otherwise another excellent discussion

THEMISTOCLES - MUENSTER
I totally agree with Max Wallis in his comment. Perhaps in 40 minutes one can only scratch the surface of a historical question. What happened in the city of Munster had to do with an explosion in subjective philosophy (Berkeley, Fichte) and a close reading of the bible. Before any criticism, one has to take a step back and recognise that Anabaptism (or one of its subsequent versions) was the source of Quakerism (ref: Russell) and that they were 100% right in abandoning infant baptism which is not anywhere to be seen in the bible or in early Christianity. Infant baptism represented a state attempt to suppress other religions and tradition in the Eastern Roman Empire. It is sad churches still practise it; in my mind it is a terrible fascistic practise that should be outlawed. The Anabaptists were clearly influenced by the bible. When they destroyed for example property deeds and regrettably burnt books they acted according to ACTS (19:18, 19:19) ‘and many that believed came, and confessed and shewed their deeds. Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together and burnt them before all.’ Obviously the destruction of the property deeds gave this revolt potentially a political character which was totally lost in its religion subjectivism. It is an important point to realise that the Anabaptists were not more right or more wrong than any other religion. Take the dogma of holy trinity for example, or even the new testament itself. The former is not based on biblical text and the latter was formed at a later stage of Christian history. They were both decided by committee votes. The subjectivism rests on that the priests that decided what the dogmas should be or what to put in and what to leave out from the bible, were inspired by the holy spirit and therefore the decision was not theirs but god’s. This is the fundamental laughable idea behind religion, that’s why they are all fraud. The Anabaptists used the same Christian idea, but they had the audacity to bring the holy spirit upon themselves, therefore they were blessed by god, therefore what they did and what they desired was the will of god. So, in a totally amassing logic, sexual promiscuity followed. When the prophesies of second coming did not materialise they had, theoretically, a choice of thought: they could dilute their believes and build a democratic communal society, or they could go further into subjectivism hierarchical abuse and violence. They chose the latter. Most of the time people do. Self-destruction is the easy choice. Munster is a minor example. My biggest regret is the Arab philosophers, that after achieving the highest philosophy of its age, they left it to the subjective Islamic religion to synthesise a religion that can bring their philosophical truths to the common people. Many were killed their books burnt. They thought of Aristotle as their teacher but they failed to learn the most important lesson: and that is that only democracy will do.

Andrew T - Siege of Münster
Excellent IOT once again - but can any erudite listeners out there help me with what 'Anno Mouton' (at least thats what it sounded like) might mean? Melvyn used it to get the discussion back on track when the general failure of prophesies threatened a tangent.It may, of course, be another of Melvyn's malapromisms - but I'd still be interested to know what he meant to say...

Robin Allott
Schopenhauer and EvolutionA brilliant discussion. It is a pity that Schopenhauer, just, did not live long enough (he died 1960) to see how well the Darwinian account (Origin of Species 1859) of evolution with the centrality of the reproductive drive in natural selection fitted with his own emphasis on Will interpreted as the drive to life through reproduction. There is no evidence. unfortunately, that Darwin knew anything about Schopenhauer.

Albane - In Our Time
I'm a french student in English and your programme is terribly intetresting and perfectly matches my studies.I wish we had the same in France. Every week you are now dowloaded on my Ipod. Albane from France.

Max Wallis - downfall of Muenster revolt
The 'anabaptists' took power through elections against a corrupt clique. Perhaps like the Paris commune but with fuzzier ideas of an alternative.So how and why did the 'revolution' turn sour so quickly?That's a question that Bragg should have asked, rather than waste his Newsletter in commenting on alleged sexual sadism etc.

Arthur Butterworth
The programmes are always immensely stimulating - perhaps the most intelligent and truly interesting of anything done on radio these days.One would often like to reply, maybe in some detail to many of Melvyn Bragg's regular e-mails, but so often a message sent to you seems (for whatever technical reason) not to get through. What is the open sesame to getting in contact, please ?There could be a few topics that occur to mind that one would like, however tentatively, to suggest to Lord Bragg. Arthur Butterworth

The Siege of Muenster and Anabaptists
I really enjoyed the programme, more so because I was born near Muenster, and grew up there.We were taught in school about this episode of what I always saw as local history. Thank you for puting this into a wider context of the history of protestantism.This episode of Muenster's history is passed down over the centuries with a strong emphasis on the cruelty of the perpetrators who were punished equally cruel with public torture. But my suspicion is that this chapter is written by the victorious Catholics, and that any reformists' ideas that could challenge the ruling class, should be discouraged and associated with the cult of Muenster's Wiedertauefer.

Ken Weiss. Participant modesty
The credit given to your participant for not plugging his book or TV programme was quite appropriate. One of the many things that makes IOT so wonderful and notable a program is that it is not a celebrity show. I never know in advance who the commenters will be, because it is the subject, not the specific talking heads, that counts.And that means that the commenters are well chosen for real expertise rather than just celebrity.And all of that makes this such a great programme. As I tell my friends, it's like getting a university education...without any exams.

Brian Leach This series
Just had to say how much I am enjoying the series via the podcasts which I listen to on my train journey to London.In previous series there has been the odd one or two I couldn't get on with, my fault I'm sure, but have found them all most interesting this time round.

CC The Siege of Munster and the Anabaptists
Fascinating program about a low point in Protestant history. The reformation revolutionised everything in European society, not just Christianity. It laid the foundations of 'modern society'. Because of the printing press the Bible became available to ordinary people. Then it led to education for all, modern science, equal opportunities, freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, the value of the individual. The Bible reveals God to be the protector of the weak: widows, orphans, disabled people, strangers, asylum seekers, old people, children. It resulted in the abolition of slavery and is the basis of the welfare state. So many of the values that we take for granted have come from the Bible, but when people try to establish "the New Jerusalem" they have missed the point that it is not a utopia built by man. It is a city that comes down from heaven at the end of time, when God recreates heaven and earth (eco-warriors take note). He then dwells with man on the earth. It doesn't all end in "doomsday".

Janet Lock on Siege of Munster
Thank you for an excellent and well balanced program. I wanted to stress that fact that the name 'Anabaptist' ('Wiedertaufer' in German) was a term of derision used by their opponents. It was not the name of a Christian denomination, nor did it apply to any one movement. After Luther and other Reformers had compromised with the authorities in order to legitimise their Protestant faith, they turned against sincere Christians who were choosing to put into practice the original ideas of The Reformation. These uncompromising Christians became an embarrassment, and therefore the Reformers labelled them Wiedertaufer (baptized more than once), which they said was heresy. However the group involved in the events at Munster had clearly become a cult, and bore no resemblance whatsoever to other humble Christians all over Europe, who were also labelled Wiedertaufer, and simply lived out their lives in kindness and service to the poor. It is a great pity that the Munster scandal has given the Lutheran Church in Germany an excuse never to 'repent' over their wicked treatment (including murder and driving into exile) of Christians whose only 'crime' was to disagree with the Reformer's later compromises, but to whom they gave the same label as the Munster cult. Interestingly, the Swiss Reformed Church has publicly apologised and made restitution for their murder of the Anabaptists during this chapter of history. Best wishes, Janet Lock

Mason: Schopenhauer
Wonderful programme. Beatrice Han-Pile in particular was a delight to listen to, clear and precise. Please bring her back for a programme on Nietzsche. I would have loved to hear more on Schopenhauer regarding physiology/ psychology, and what his place is today. I felt like you would've gotten there with more time. Thank you.

kathleen / appreciation of 'In Our Time'
This is an endorsement of what others have said: IOT is quite the best programme on radio and tv: best presenter, best contributors. I am continually depressed by the poor standard of most broadcasting, stemming I think from the BBC's terror of promoting middleclass values, any content that could be judged 'elitist'. It is wonderful to be able to learn something new, to be challenged and left with the desire to find out more. I worry that this programme will be discontinued. If that were the case, how much poorer life would be!

Angus Rodgers - Schopenhauer, etc. (continued)
As for suggestions for future programmes in the series: (1) Any chance of a programme on Kierkegaard? Or has there already been one? (2) No Derrida for me, please!

Angus Rodgers - Schopenhauer, etc.
I loved the programme on Schopenhauer (just as much as the one on the geological history of Britain). It opened my eyes, as I'd never imagined I would find Schopenhauer congenial. Halfway through listening to it, I stopped to supplement it with a reading of Chapter 4, "Man and World as Will: The Vision of Schopenhauer" of T. L. S. Sprigge, /Theories of Existence/, which I found to be another brief but lucid introduction to this thinker. On the basis of these initial impressions, I very much agree with A. C. Grayling's comment (later, reported in the newsletter) about S's "common sense". Now I just have to actually read some of his books!

Alastair McKay - The Siege of Munster and the Anab
As someone who works for the London Mennonite Centre, and who seeks to bring an Anabaptist perspective to Christian discipleship to the mainstream churches in the UK, I was interested to hear such a direct engagement with some Anabaptist history on this programme. One thing that was obviously missing from the programme was an Anabaptist perspective on the early Reformation and the siege of Munster. Given that there is a thriving Anabaptist Network in the UK, it would have made sense to include someone like Stuart Murray Williams on the programme, who is the chair of that Network. This could have helped to redress some of the inaccuracies that crept into the programme. For example, the commitment to nonviolence among the Anabaptists predates the events of Munster by several years, and grew out of these believers reading of the scriptures: the Schleitheim Confession, signed in 1527 seven years before Munster, and generally seen as a defining document of early Anabaptist convictions, included (as one of its seven articles) the rejection of the use of the sword and violence by Christians. The events of Munster may have helped to consolidate this conviction among the broader Anabaptist movement, but they did not act as the spur for it.It would be good to see the programme followed up by another one with a broader examination of the early Anabaptists, and an exploration of what this movement has to say to the wider Christian tradition. Alastair McKay

Oh ..and Scopenhauer
As Wittgenstein once famously said:"Of what we cannot speak we must remain silent"

Sorry...Jane - Schopenhauer
The whole process of unravelling truth from the enigmatic perspective of Plato's cave is almost laughable in its difficulty because in the absence of knowledge, the complexity is overwhelming. The discursive route to truth is a long and painful one of tortuously running up and down alleyways, ninety nine point nine percent of which are probably 'blind'. If Plato had looked behind him, he would have begun to realize that vast realms lay in darker regions too which, over the centuries, the brightest 'sparks' have delved into, (the truly authentic route being through their own consciousness) incrementally adding their contribution. It'd be wonderful to plonk this historical vanguard into the twenty-first century and let them loose on today's cutting edge 'fruits'. My experience within this body has shown me unequivocally that energy moves in all directions and we are like little conscious points, radiating and receiving according to...Oh....I won't even begin to go there! I'm off...but I really can't thank you enough for the programme and for the responses. Best wishes.

Jane in response ...especially Themistocles
I've just got a book from the library called 'The Decisive moment' by Jonah Lehrer. It's about how the mind makes decisions - (it's entertainingly written). Interestingly, neurological investigations indicate that decisions are made not by the rational, thinking mind, but by the part of the brain responsible for emotion. If that part of the brain is damaged, decisions can't be made. Philosophy appears to be the output of the thinking mind, but there's obviously more involved and probably many philosophers, though their words spill rightly or wrongly into the world, are simply trying to deal with the lot of their own consciousness in the best way they can. 2. Metaphysics cannot be fully understood by the usual orientation of the brain. There is a literal shift in consciousness to a totally different understanding of reality which is known in an instant and is an encompassing embodiment not an intellectualisation. I'm a professional classical musician and have experienced incredibly transcendent moments brought about by particular music. These were a glorious heightening of human experience but nothing to do with the totally beneficent understanding which comes, instantly, with what could be called a metaphysical or more appropriately, spiritual perspective, when what seems to be a far greater apprehension of truth permeates the entire 'being'. Words are redundant, for the state is one of knowing and embodying and the nature of everything is understood differently - hence the 'oneness' which is so often referred to. Philosophers generally have great intellectual facility, but it seems that many are close to a 'membrane' or, as it appears to me, a 'ceiling of complexity' between these states of awareness. Some have their heads pressed hard against it, desperately trying to find ways to get 'answers' to release the tension - and a few probably have glimpses or flashes of insight about which they attempt, with difficulty, to communicate (possibly Hegel). In some, untenable levels of fear and horror in the basic sensibilities are possibly caught in a catch 22 with the metabolism creating a restless driving force. This is very different from what would be called the will..as is the vital spark of life itself (covered in a previous IOT programme). 3. Schopenhauer doesn't appear to manage any elegant cohesion with his ideas, which can make them seem wrong, but I personally think he was very, very bright in what he did capture. I know very little about philosophy - I've got the 'How to Bluff your way in philosophy' somewhere but haven't even got through that...what I've always had is the fear, the horror and thus the restless driving force. It's almost as though extreme polarization is central to the process with horrible discomfort the catalyst...or the clue. In which case we cannot know what is a good life and what isn't, for the 'fruits' may be, in some cases, far more important than the experience. Best wishes

jane - Schopenhauer
Bear with me but philosophy is fundamental stuff and I'm still ruminating....sorry....1. I absolutely agree with James Baring when he writes 'All of Schopenhauer's ideas are spot on. Any robust assessment of the meaning of life and the human condition must take them in its stride, appreciate them and move on through the slough of despond to higher ground. There is more to it than Schopenhauer.' Jumping camp towards Hegel here ( maybe James will be one person who understands what I'm saying) intimations indicate that the human being, caught in the lower evolutionary processes of distortion and restriction, does have transcendent and upwardly mobile structures but to know that empirically would nullify the very process of evolving. (In the deepest and truest sense, our coveted freewill has probably contributed to our process being one of struggle.) The philosophers, poets, musicians, artists etc., whose sensitivity and awareness cross the normal barriers, usually find themselves in a somewhat pressured 'sink or swim' modus operandi. There can be real agony as well as heightened experience in embodying this somewhat dichotomous state. The human is a mightily complex synthesis with maybe far more levels of influence and morphology than can presently be fathomed. Working all the philosophies, old and new, into a schematic might be a good beginning towards seeing that what appears as contradiction is often the result of the incomplete understanding of form and function....not 'this or that' but 'this and that'. 2. We humans are generically similar but individually, incredibly diverse thus 'one man's meat is another man's poison'. How can we possibly find any real objective agreement? In any case, even if we did, we might simply be wrong en masse. Hopefully cont'd....

jane - Schpenhauer
cont'd 3. Words create pros and cons.What would none or pre-intellectual philosophers use?Awareness...dance..sex...sounds...images...rituals? Words can limit our experience of life by keeping the brain in a particular type of cerebral orientation and semantics can overly define, colour or limit our interpretation of reality. Sanskrit lexicons contain many words pertaining to what we call 'noumena', thus considerably extending the intellectual concepts available to cerebral processing. (Do these ancient words get lost in translation?) 4. Morality in itself can be attributed to conditioning or common sense...ie. overall, it works better than immorality. The philosophical issue is surely how we interpret our innate biological, psychological and emotional relationship with it - with special attention to the occasional times when we realize that we have 'broken our own hearts' by our actions to others. At that point morality takes on a whole new meaning. 5. It seems the needs created by Schopenhauer's melancholy nature (and his awareness) led him towards existing forms of 'wisdom' but whether he experienced 'the oneness of life', for instance, or simply intellectualized it wasn't clear. Buddhism corroborated his own view that 'life is suffering'...but that's not unequivocal - ironically, it is possible that the way he assimilated these beliefs added to his problems. 6. Did his alleged atheism relate to a biblical concept of God or any form of a creative force other than will? Was it simply hope upon hope that he read the Godly Upanishads so devotedly? He seems to reiterate some of their contents in his own philosophy. Best wishes. ps 'God transcendent, God immanent' might be quite a juicy future subject.

Listening again and again
Thank you for gathering such a brilliant panel for the last riveting edition on Schopenhauer. I find the best way to appreciate and digest every drop of wisdom is by replaying and replaying every word through Listen Again (and Again). Each time it reveals a little more, and is a delight to me. Debbie Nightingale

Paul - Schopenhauer
Lovely program and wonderful to hear from my recent MA Supervisor Professor Han-Pile on the show! I hope you include some more discussions on Continental Philosophy, and would love to hear a discussion on Nietzsche, Heidegger or Derrida.

Schopenhauer and the East
There was a point I think the speakers omitted and needs to be emphasised clearly. Outside the phenomenal world it makes no sense to talk of anything being different than anything else. Therefore whatever there may be outside the world of our experience must be undifferentiated, timeless, spaceless,of which we can never have direct knowledge.This conclusion is strikingly similar to traditions of Hinduism and Buddhism,but Schopenhauer did not know this when he arrived at it.He was not a religious person:he did not believe in personal survival of death,nor did he believe in God or the soul.Most important he did not get this belief from Buddhism or Hinduism, he came to his views through rational argument in the central tradition of Western philosophy-the tradition of Descartes, Spinoza, Leibnitz, Locke, Berkely,Hume and Kant-developing it further by purely rational kinds of argument on which the tradition rests.He then discovered Hindu and Buddhist thinkers had reached similar conclusions and studied their works with enormous interest.He took the view that such similar conclusions having been reached in such widely divergent continents and cultures was a good reason to give them serious consideration.He said Kant had beenwrong in talking about things(plural)as they are in themselves

Alan Mitcham, Programme suggestion
Dear Melvin, On trips to various countries around the Mediterranean I have noticed disused agricultural terraces on barren, rocky hillsides. I also read that previously a lot of the Mediterranean was densely forested but the Romans (and others) cut down the trees for ships and for building.I feel that, with today's deforestation of tropical regions, it would be fascinating to hear about how Europe's vegetation, agriculture and forestation has been changed by man over the centuries and how that has affected both social structures (including migration) and the climate.Maybe you can introduce this topic into one of your series? Regards, Alan Mitcham, Cologne,

James Williams - Schopenhauer on 29/10/2009
Dear Melvyn, I read your comments with interest about the over-run of the programme. I just wonder if it's possible to edit the 'extra' time and then to edit/compile this into a In Our Time 'Plus' version, which would then be available on the internet/mp3, etc. Such a shame for the public not to here more of a great discussion.Regards, James.

Schopenhauer
Thank you for the opportunity to listen to speakers with a gift of succint clarity of language. I hope this programme may be continued to its natural conclusion and would personally enjoy a series of programmes which consider other philosophers.

John Rogers
Given the present financial crisis what about a Biography of Money (and his twin brother Economics) - one of the oldest ideas of all?

Mike Waller - Schopenhauer
As this poem of mine makes clear, I thought I owed the central idea to Darwin alone. Now, thanks to Melvyn's excellent programme on Schopenhauer, I realise that he took much the same view of romantic love.Knowing more than's good for you. The modern heirs of Darwin, who never stop for play,Have now thought up a new idea which blows my mind away.It concerns the early humans who shared parental caresBy traipsing round the open veldt in tightly bonded pairs. When it came to picking partners, it was clear to all the rest,It's a basic law of nature that "the better gets the best".No matter how they yearned for her, the fairest naked ape,If she got a better offer, that's the one she'd take. In terms of evolution this could cause a lot of grief'Cos pairings made with second best are very often brief.Before the day of equal pay this proved much more than sadAs a single mother's prospects were almost always bad. Then, up there popped a little gene, a very clever chap,Who specified the blue-print for that oh so tender trap.We still peruse the talent with a very steely eye,And still we note, regretfully, that some are ranked too high. But once we've made our choice, we now forget all those aboveBy letting rip the hormones that will make us fall in love.So though its many mysteries are very widely sung,Love is just a clever trick which helps us raise our young. But this then brings up the question: even if it is true,Is this the kind of finding that you want revealed to you? Perhaps we should tell those guys that, if they are very smart,They'll poke and pry some other place and leave alone the heart. Mike Waller

Schopenhauer: Keith Wild
"Phenomenal and Noumenal". Melvyn, I'm surprised that you give air time to this dangerous dualist claptrap.

THEMISTOCLES- Schopenhauer
There is a lot I admire about Schopenhauer but overall my feeling is negative. I had the intention to express what we can learn from him but given the total lack of any criticism, I am moving straight to my objections. Please correct me if I am wrong. Firstly, the essence of a human being is NOT the will to live, is not the will to reproduce is not the desire to have sex. Schopenhauer’s claim, which I assume was supported by the panel, is a general one that can be applied to the cats, to the dogs and to the mushrooms growing uninvited in my back garden. Indeed these are statements that characterise all life and on this basis, it is true to say that all life is one. This of course is an ancient idea. My objection is not on the royalties of the idea, but what follows next, which is that ‘hence ‘will’ is the essence of human beings’. Our essence is not the fact that we have DNA or will or desire, these things makes us beings. To move from a being to a human you have to tell me something that makes me different from my cat. This of course is my reason, so easily dismissed from the panel; more accurately the political reason. The biggest mistake of all the philosophers mentioned in the programme is their beginning of analysis. They start with a human in abstraction. I suggest that the starting point should be what Aristotle calls the POLITICAL BEING. The two methods cannot be compared internally but only by results. At the end, each one of us has to make a choice. All the ideas of compassion, love your neighbour etc. can be seen in the philosophy of democratic Athens. Schopenhauer did not have to look into religions. Aristotle in his Ethics developed the idea that to love you need friendship, compassion, and intimacy that is achieved by the identification with the problem experienced by your fellow citizen (this is much more than to say love your neighbour in abstract). Socrates mentioned that it is preferable to suffer than to inflict injustice. These ideas flew almost as practical necessity from the life of a democratic polis. There is no need for metaphysics if your starting point is the political being. Secondly, the internal logic of Schopenhauer leaves a lot to be desired. According to him, the infinitely meaningless Will, is expressed by unsatisfied desires, which however (I can argue) express something material, which is the one you don’t have. A man cannot desire to be a man, a poor person cannot desire to be poor etc. Hence, a desire both in its experience and expression exists in relation to phenomena, it is objectable hence it is not ‘numenon’. It does not make sense to me. Thirdly his theory of art, follows Kant’s third critique, but expands even more on the latter’s inconsistencies. To put it simply they both assume a general theory of art, reasoning what is good from what is not. Let us take the music of the SEX PISTOLS. Certainly a prototype according to Kant’s approach, does it make it to being the greatest work of art, and since it is music is it greater than everything painted by Raphael? Could these philosophers, through listening ‘God Saves the Queen,’ experience ‘the sorrow, joy, and ecstasy of life, and feel one with the universe?’ The question although here rhetorical is not answered by neither Schopenhauer nor Kant. Why would they consider an opera better than punk? They do not have a general theory. Fourth, the most arrogant argument of Schopenhauer is that he assumes in his philosophy that he knows himself (or his body). To this he contradicts not only Buddhism (it a life journey to do so), but also Wittgenstein (‘nothing is so difficult as not deceiving oneself), Socrates (‘I know one thing, that I know nothing), the Delphic Oracle (‘know thyself’/ ‘nothing in excess’). It is just not a serious proposition. Self-knowledge is the end not the initial input for a philosophical enquiry. Finally, what is our highest nature? To feast from the forbidden fruit of knowledge, with our neighbour.

Copleston
Check out the old BBC interview between Frederick Copleston and Bryan Magee on You Yube. This is how masters do it!

John Bonner, Schopenhauer
I wanted it to go on, as it Melvyn and his guests. Any chance of extending it, to 60 mins, perhaps with a breather in the middle, with some background information?

In our Time podcasts
Help, I've accidentally deleted my In Our Time podcasts. Can anyone give me advice/assistance?

tony woodd.................schopenhauer
"the authority of reason" of the conditioned mind is somewhat questionable as it's conditioning governs it's thought processes, the dynamic of it's movement is insecurity and it seeks or wills to consolidate itself and it's imagined life as an egocentric individuality.how would such a finite mind, with at best, a newtonian perspective, come upon the ultimate metaphysical reality? could there be any significant meaning to the life of such a mind? maybe the best we can hope for as we see the violence and self seeking even in our "civilised societies" is that this is part of the process of the evolution of consciousness of humanity, stuggling to birth itself into a greater awareness, as the resolution of egocentricity and it's insecurity, toward a sense of oneness, a state of mind of love and gratitude.awareness of actuality rarely lives and thought as imagination in the cultured mind's interaction with outside itself, rarely dies.humanity spends it's life trying to grasp it,to remove it's heads for good,as and where and when it manifests itself as offence. societies and their delegates debate and legislate at length and in confusion, for none of them know of mentality as the body upon which it's heads grow..

John Marshall
In Our Time is the best programme, either on radio or television, and the ultimate manifestation of Reith's mission to "educate, inform and entertain". I would love you to do a programme on the radical groups that sprang up in the middle of the 17th century: the Ranters, the Levellers (the Putney Debates) and, most of all, the Diggers whose ideas were at least 200 years ahead of their time. It must have been an extraordinarily exciting time to be English.

Royden Hunt, Schopenhauer
Just read your newsletter Melvyn. Don't worry about the glitch at the end. I thought the presentation and discussion was one of the best on a philosophical topic I have ever heard on Radio 4 - even from 'In Our Time'! Your three philosopher contributors were fantastic in the clarity of the way they dealt with issues brought up by Schopenhauer's work. Especially the context of the leading continental philosophers of his time,particularly Kant and Hegel - usually so difficult to grasp, but not from these three! I will certianly refer my students to the web site to hear it.

John-Schopenhauer
First of all a good discussion of pouring a quart into a pint pot. Schopenhauer inherited wealth like Wittgenstein and this freed him up from academic philosophy to pursue thesubject independently.He built up his worldview from Kant’s transcendental idealism.But he went further by describing ultimate reality,Kant’s Thing-in-Itself,the noumenon.Kant had rightfully divided total reality into the phenomenal and noumenal,but wrong about what these were.Schopenhauer’s idea of a human being as a material object that knows itself from inside with direct, immediate,non-sensory knowledge from within,with thoughts,feelings,moods and memories,hints at the inner nature of the world.For Schopenhauer, the entire world of phenomena in space and time,internally connected by causality, is the manifestation of an impersonal,timelessly active Will.It is an unassuagable striving, conflicted,devouring,terrible,full of suffering, meaningless,dissatisfying to the individual.This anticipated Darwin’s evolutionism and with Schopenhauer’s centralizingof the sexual drive in his philosophy,Freud’s unconscious.He could have called it ‘energy’ or ‘force’ and anticipated a lot of 20th century physics.Rationality is not(as in Kant)the foundation for ethics.The roots of morality lie outside the phenomenal world in ourmetaphysical one-ness,anticipating Wittgenstein:’The solution to the riddle of life in space and time lies outside space and time.’.His concept of the Will influenced Nietzsche’sWill-to –Power,leaving out Schopenhauer’s solution to deny the will due to his belief that compassion lay at the source of all ethics.Schopenhauer was explicitly atheistic,the 1st great western philosopher to be so.He also is the only western philosopher to draw parallels between western and eastern thought.Although he had a high regard for science he didn’t think ultimate explanations are to be found in science.He thought philosophy closer to the arts.He is the great philosopher on the arts and their importance as a way out of the nightmare of reality is through Art,its aim is not to express emotion but to convey insight into the universal nature of things.His influence on artists and the arts is phenomenal,especially Wagner,he placed music at the top of the hierarchy, giving us a direct analogicalexpression of the noumenal realm. Schopenhauer’s focus on reality itself rather than conceptual clarification and analysis makes him one of the truly great philosophers.He was a great writer of philosophy with abrilliantly aphoristic style.

Schopenhauer and art
He has much to offer us, especially in his thoughts about art.The artist works from pure feeling, and unconsciously, indeed instinctively, he says. On the contrary, imitators, mannerists, imitators,abound.IOT should have a programmes about art saving civilisation form nullity Jack Dale

Pronsias
2 prog suggestions: Voltaire, Scepticism

Pronsias – Schopenhauer
Your contributors were models of clarity but I was depressed. What a waste of time metaphysics is. Noumenal reality is, what, DRIVE? But by definition noumena are what we CAN'T know about things. Sex and reproduction are urges in us – an observation that doesn't require any metaphysics – but not in rocks: why suppose they're 'really' both made of raw will? What use is the speculation?

John, Schopenhauer,
whoever that wonderful woman was, her opening had me nailed to my chair -please give her her own show!

Peter Clegg - Schopenhauer
Will you be continuing this discussion, part2, at a later date. It was so, so good then it just ended. Please continue in the near future, there was so much left unsaid.

John Roster Harrison - Schopenhauer
I rate this show very highly, but the Schopenhauer one was exceptional. As Melvyn, by his own admission, "messed up the timing", I plead for a part 2, hopefully with the same participants and without any messing up this time!

kleines c - Schopenhauer
Fascinating stuff, Melvyn.

Brian Kelly: Schopenhauer
A very helpful and lucid discussion - a shame it had to end so abruptly, as tracing Schopenhauer's impact on 20th century culture would have been highly illuminating. However, no one seemed out the obvious presupposition, that Schopenhauer was an atheist, as were those influenced by him: Nietzsche, Freud, Camus. The 20th century conviction, that life is absurd, is posited directly on its commitment to atheism.

Jane - re Anne Gerrard
If it means anything to you, the only 'boundary' (in vogue vernacular) I have really managed to set with my forceful kids is the "don't interrupt IOT" one. It usually applies to my somewhat errant son and I can honestly say that for some reason, he's truly respectful of it. It's possibly the effect of will in the world.... All the best.

Tom Milner-Gulland - Schopenhauer
Schopenhauer’s notion of an underlying striving is what I think of as a life force. For me, will - at least, a general wilfulness installed within mind and nature - is the basis of the phenomenon of time, which, if creation is taken to be an exercise of will, connects with Hegel’s insight, in The Science of Knowledge, that within the creation of a thing there resides a grain of its passing. Time is given by that which underlies the progression from birth to death. However, by perceiving phenomena we are led to conclude there is something more than mere striving, as evidenced by the manifold differences between qualities of the environment. Thus we are led to the concept of noumena, which for me are the various ‘qualities’ of wilfulness inherent in the life force, that one might interpret as being instinctual in character. We relate to the ultimate metaphysical reality, as Schopenhauer says, through our appetites, and I’d add that a being’s instincts are what shape its mode of knowing nature - of relating, via such appetites, to the life force - and as such are a detached portion of the full gamut of instincts inherent to the life force that make manifest the full environment.

Jane - Schopenhauer
This programme had an uncommon momentum and I've been carried along all day by it. The limits of perception and knowledge make any tidy cohesion impossible but I think Schopenhauer's grasp of things was quite amazing. Melvyn and his guest's grasp of things was also pretty impressive. Thank you one and all for the brilliance. I will now bite my tongue and shut up 'though it's not easy in such tempting territory! Here's a quote (a truism that's seemingly transparent to many) attributed to Schopenhauer :"Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world". Best wishes and many thanks.

Jon Taylor
I also would love the programme to be given more time! Also I would love to hear a programme on Walter Benjamin.

James Baring - Schopenhauer
A brilliant discussion on a brilliant man.Those who have not travelled the road to share Schopenhauer's insights, before (I hope) moving on to a less depressed and bleak view of the individual's contribution to the collective good and a possible future full of meaning, may be vulnerable to a shattering of their illusions.There is a parallel here with talented artists who late in life put piles of bricks into the Tate gallery to the applause of the like-minded whose precocious talents somehow prevented them from appreciating the wonder of a pile of bricks when aged 2-3.All of Schopenhauers ideas are spot on. Any robust assessment of the meaning of life and the human condition must take them in its stride, appreciate them and move on through the slough of despond to higher ground. There is more to it than Schopenhauer.

Ann Gerrard -Schopenhauer
Really interesting programme this morning.I aiways love the discussions on Philosophy and have learned loads from I.O.T.I missed some of the programme due to having to pay some distracted attention to my children, but managed to hear that Schopenhauer engaged at some point with Buddhism. I think that he related to the Buddhist idea that desires lead to suffering and so to extinguish desires was to enter Nirvana or to attain Enlightenment,but this is a desire in its self. There is a Buddhist school that answers this question by stating "Earthly Desires are Enlightenment" in other words, one uses ones desires to question or go deeper into ones life in order to attain a profound understanding based on the Buddhist concepts of Courage,Wisdom and Compassion.This is quite a change to the way people normally view Buddhism but allows the practioner an active and outward looking way to change his/her life and create value.With very best wishes,Ann

Linda Emmins. Schopenhauer
Hi Melvyn..IOT gets through to me like nothing else. This morning i was holding my breath whilst listening so not to miss a word and suddenly it was gone.What a disappointment. Please continue in the near future, there was so much left unsaid.

Richard Frost: : Everything
Good stuff today, so good that MB forgot the time. I was inspired; I noted that there is something in S that echoes evolution and the necessity to leave offspring that reproduce. I must write my philosophy now.

Martin Aylott
- or, only irrelevant in the context of the programme's limits. Clearly an argument for giving it more airtime!

iot team
The ending didn't matter - that was a super programme. High standards are essential but perfectionism kills real creativity - it's arrogant, fear driven nonsense. The ending wasn't perfect or slick - totally irrelevant so far as I'm concerned - the programme was riveting. Jane

Martin Aylott - Schopenhauer
Excellent programme. Very well articulated. It's irrelevant that you ran out of time. Well done all those who contributed. Many thanks. Still one of the best progs being broadcast.Many thanks.

Michael Lind - John Calvin
Sorry if this is cheating, as this week is about Schopenhauer; but since this year sees the 500th anniversary of the birth of John Calvin, one of the most influential theologians of the past 1000 years, is there any chance of a programme about him?

iot team - Schopenhauer
Glancing through what wikipedia has to say about him, this should be a really good programme. It seems that there are several common misconceptions about his beliefs so if you haven't already incorporated them and if there's enough time tomorrow, I'm wondering if they might be mentioned as they shed a certain light....there's such interweaving in the beliefs, deductions and influence of philosopher on philosopher and thus on those who seek greater truth. Many many many many thanks for these absolutely brilliant programmes - best wishes Jane.

Paulpic full plate
There should be a computer application that would allow a person to track their hometown as it floated around throughout history.

Claudia Funder Thank You
Hi Melvyn and all at IOT.Thank you so much for a wonderful podcast and newsletter each week. I've been receiving them for a couple of years now and I'm hooked. Great topics, iteresting discussion, and lovely de-brief with personal asides from Melvyn afterwards. yes, London in autumn is beautiful. Amazing light.ThanksClaudiaMelbourne, Australia

Nicholas Trigg Geology of Britain.
What a wonderful programme. Never before have I heard such a clear geological history of the world in 45 minutes. I read Geology at Oxford 1957 Well done to you all.

Jane - geological formation of Britain
In haste - really enjoyable. The long and arduous process of human deduction, probably punctuated by both moments of euphoric amazement and noses thoroughly 'out of joint' would be an interesting story in itself. How far back in time can carbon dating be relied upon for accuracy? Is the information as watertight as was indicated by one of the speakers? It was an extremely interesting programme with its broad sweep of physical (and psychological) perspective. Many thanks, praises and warm wishes as always.

Mrs Yvette Morris
Everyone raves about the clarity of the programme about the geology of the earth yet what can be more confusing than statements such as" 600m years ago England was south of the equator".Since the rocks of the Cotswolds and N. and S.Downs had yet to be formed the statement was ridiculous. Could corals have lived near the South Pole ?One was given the impression that the British Isles floated around the earth's surface picking up pieces along the way which is a comlete misunderstanding of the so called movements of the continents. A T.V. programme showing the history of the earth's surface since the earliest rocks found would show that the present disposition of land/sea is quite recent and the use of terms such as "British Isles" and "Wales" etc. useless.

Children's Literature.
It seems to me that a whole literary genre seems to have been ignored by In Our Time. Where are your programmes on Children's Literature? An area growing in academic rigour and increasingly recognised as an important area for study. Yet, courses at universities on Children's Literature have in the past been derided by the press.This could make a great programme. The instruction vs delight theory, when is a book a children's book? Are literary critics correct in dering Harry Potter? Who makes the assumptions that some children's books are of value (Pullman), and others are not. I think this could make a great programme and challenge many preconceptions.Mary Gilmartin

Subject Suggestion
What about a programme on the Normal Distribution?This is the probability distribution that dominates the natural and human worlds. The programme will touch on the history of mathematics, classical physics, quantum physics, social, economic and natural sciences.RegardsPhilip

COLIN LAVERY
last week I found myself in the city of Jaipur and so was able to visit the famous observatory which was discussed on IOT some time ago. Fortunately I had downloaded that program at the time and was able to wander around the site listening to the program on my MP3 player which was perfect. Any chance of making the treasure trove of archive material downloadable???? Thanks for a great programme. IOT IS THE BEST !!!!!

John Edwards - Geological Formation of Britain
The map that forms the background to the programme. What does it show? Is it a geochemical map showing the concentration of copper?

Mme Victoria living in France
I have listened to the programme for many years, often finding it rather frustrating in its limitations but yesterday's episode was terrific. Geological formation - find more like this production team with experts as interesting and interested in fascinating subjects and we'll all be hooked.

Emos Redlig: Geological Formation of Britain
An immensely interesting programme this week. However, I think you have omitted a major stage in the time-line. As Britain was forming as an island God noticed that instead of the carefully designed singular landmass he'd asked his angels to create, two separate islands were taking shape, one in the the north and one in the south and the sea was beginning to flow into the gap. Deeply unhappy with this manufacturing fault he immediately summoned a much embarrassed Gabriel to his throne and ordered him to correct the fault immediately. Realising he only had seconds to act, Gabriel at once gathered up an immense portion of heaven and dropped it down onto Earth. And that's how Yorkshire came into existence. Meanwhile the Devil, in an terrible rage at what he saw as a rather devious plan by God to alter the natural balance of things on Earth in his own favour, reacted as only he could. As the sea flooded in to fill the remaining void a glowing red viscous mass of lava erupted. And that's how Lancashire was created.

Barrie Singleton Alternative pre-history
All science 'works' - in its time. It seems self-consistent - in its time. But time moves on. There is an alternative paradigm, developed over 50 years, that dispenses with the mass of sticking plaster now adorning current orthodoxy. Search: Electric Universe.

Hugh McMillan: a poem in response to the latest pr
Proof At LastIt’s in the rock record,but we could have guessed.Years ago, balmy Scotland hugged the equator,golden beaches, lush forests,coconuts, bars on stilts,beach volleyball, then one dayearth’s orbit tipped to an ellipse,plates shifted, the oceans shut,and on that flimsy pretextEngland came hurling up from its place in the Antarcticand slammed us with its icy spine into the North Atlantic,shunted up the sheuch of Iceland with all the ensuingmountains, herring, sleet, Sundays, words like sheuch…That’s it. No need for further talk.At last, at last, it’s proved, it’s all their fault.

Geological formation of Britian
Just listened to this on iPlayer, and found it as gripping as a good thriller - it's a model of clarity, dealing with huge subject, explored by enthusiastic experts, in everyday language, gently guided by Melvyn Bragg playing Everyman. Many thanks.

Mark Severn - Geological Formation of Britain
What a superb programme. Genuine experts on the subject being marshalled by a knowledgeable & sympathetic chair. Man-made climate change mentioned as an after-thought & rightly put in its place in the context of the phenomenal power of nature.

Gary McNamara - Sorry Its for The Dreyfus Affair
This Podcast was Gold. What a terrific discussion and – especially in the last three quarters – another example of history’s lessons never being learned. Throughout the 42 minutes the canny resemblance of the elements that falsely justified the US’s current Iraqi/Afghanistan/Pakistan tragedy.

THEMISTOCLES: Akhenaten, reply to Dave
Dear Dave. Thank you very much for reading my staff and your comment. I hope that in my reply you can maintain an open mind and reach your own conclusions. Bertrand Russell in the first sentence of his book ‘History of Western Philosophy’ states: ‘In all history, nothing is so surprising or so difficult to account for as the sudden rise of civilization in Greece’. The apotheosis of the latter is the development of democracy in Athens. This happened in the 5th century BC, but the process started 300 years before with the creation of polis in various parts of Greece. So clearly Christianity was not in the religious menu of the age. In answering your question it is necessary to practise heterochronism and ask if the first Christians had any inclination towards democracy. Your opinion is clearly deductive. You have, I assume, the belief that in the eyes of God all humans are equal and therefore translating this to civic matters, all humans in the eyes of law are equal, or even all citizens are equal. This is a valid thought and found its expression in relative modern revolutionary movements in Latin America where many revolutionary democrats were inspired by their beliefs. It is however extremely unfortunate that this was not followed by early Christianity or by their first state The early Christians did not have the instinct for democracy. If you read the Bible or the early Christian writings you will see that the emphasis is on obedience and faith, not on enquiry, doubt and analysis, elements without which a democracy cannot exist. The early Christians fundamentally believed that the second coming is imminent and because of that what really mattered was to prepare for the ‘next life’. Hence the present life lost its importance in terms of civic affairs and retained its importance only in terms of redemption. This is the most fundamental reason that the early Christians could not even think in democratic terms. See for example the letter of St Paul to Corinthians, where the burning of the Greek philosophical books is praised as a sign of faith, and Paul’s letter to Titus where he mentions that the Christian servants should obey their masters and satisfy their desires as if they serve Christ. Can you see any seeds for democracy in these thoughts? So the early Christians could not do democracies. What they did when they got state power was to establish that there is one God, represented by one emperor, one church, one doxy, and everybody should obey or else. The divinity of monarchies follows this approach. The Christian empire in the times of Theodosius I to Justinian I banned philosophy, science, mathematics, destroyed Greek temples closed the Olympic games, closed the Platonic school in Athens and the monks singlehanded killed in a most barbaric fashion Greek philosophers, Hypatia among them, and burnt the Serapeum temple/library of Alexandria. In the early Christian state almost everybody who spoke his mind was killed, a unique case of philosophical genocide in human history. The light of civilisation disappeared till the arrival of the Arab theorists and then the Western Renaissance. It is a paradox that the idea of democracy which was born in a single city, Athens, was reinvented in the new city states of the west, where the emerging bourgeoisie sought their autonomy against the feudal system and the church, at the same time as a great wave of intellectuals defined themselves in terms of Hellenic thought and the theoretical Islam. This is how the second epoch of democracy happened. The church if anything was an enemy force in their effort to maintain their privilege. As far as I know the only time that the free cities supported the Pope was against Barbarossa in the 12th century. But at the end of any analysis all religion (except Buddhism) is about the apocalypses of God and because of that it is the opposite of logos, that is finding the right answer through dialogue and analysis of conflicting opinions. Only Islam long time ago opened briefly a window to finding the truth of Go

graham d morris
I think the BBC should consider a programme based on the geological picture painted in "In our time". It was difficult to imagine the changes the earth surface has gone through in millions of years and we could then reconcile statements such as England and Wales crashed into Scotland millions of years ago, which was impossible since most of S.E.England had not been formed. Also Mr Bragg gave the impression that the British Isles was on a journey across the earth when for much of geological time it did not exist.Mr Bragg could also have asked(since geology does not stop)what rocks are being laid down now to be studied millions of years hence. So a huge topic whet appetites leaving much to be clarified.

Pete Collins - Geological Formation of Britain
Thanks Melvyn for the wonderful programme this morning. It really brought the subject to light, especially with your careful prompting of the academics.I did O level Geology at school and intended to do it at uni, but for various reasons I did chemistry instead, where I made my career. I have never lost my interest in geology though, but most of the books on the subject are dry as dust. Your programme has inspired me to take it up as a hobby again. How about a book or TV documentary?P.S. I've never heard you discuss my hero Robert Hooke, our greatest scientist. If not, why not?

Lynne Petersen
I thought the programme this morning was really interesting. Indeed, I enjoy In Our Time most of the time. Sometimes, somethings are abit above my head. But heigh Ho never mind. I wonder if I may suggest a topic for the programme. I would really enjoy an indepth discuss about John Wilmot, The Earl of Rochester, an interesting young man at the Court of Charles 2nd. Many of his love poems are beautiful, but most people think of him as pornographic. I would enjoy to hear experts discussing this controvercial figure.

Bill Taylor: Geological formation of Britain
This was a programme worth listening to many times with use of the pause and replay features of the iPlayer. In 45 minutes it covered the 2.7B year Geological history of the Earth. The communication skills of the guests under the conductorship of Melvyn were a delight, it made me feel I understood this complex subject and puts Humankind and its time on earth into context!

Peter Bolt : IOT
As always 1st Class;Main point however concerns earlier comments by "Chris" if I may be so "pushy"Apparently he frequently drives from Dubai to Wadi Ain in UAE.I did a similar journey a couple of times in the early 1960s (before they found oil)What does Burami look like now Chris ?I often wonder.

ned pegler - re: the geological formation of Brita
A very interesting whizz through Britain's life story and I like the idea of showing how it's constructed and broken up through time. I felt the program became very wooly when it got to the recent past. There was no explanation of why there are mountains in North and West Britain and not in south South and East, which is largely due to poorly understood processes which have happened/are happening in the crust/mantle right now. Also, if Ireland and Britain are only separated by a glacially carved channel, why is the geology of Ireland not a continuation of Britain's, with even larger mountains? Lastly, was Richard Corfield really saying that the ice age (?last part of the ice age) was because the Gulf Stream hadn't started operating. Then what about all the warm periods during that ice age then? Are they for some other reason? Whatever, the program was very enjoyable.

Geological formation of Britain
Wonderful programme - 'Britain is a geological Dr Who'! I'm always interested in landscape, and geology is the basis of it, so this was great listening. I just wish there was something like this on TV as it's a very visual subject - pity about the demise of 'Horizon'.

Alpin McGregor: The Geological Formation of Britai
This week's subject, death of Elizabeth I lqast week, Drefus, Akhenaton - the range of subjects reminds me of the glorious FY year at Keele University, alas destroyed in the interests of economy. Long may the BBC air programmes like IOT.

Belinda The Geological Formation of Britain
I found this programme very interesting and adds another dimension to world temperatures discussions.However I think it would make a very good visual programme either to view on web or television.I enjoy listening to IOT even if in some cases it's way above my head Thank you

John Edwards - Geological Evolution of Britain
Devon and CornwallYou made no mention of the separate evolution of Devon and Cornwall. Six hundred to five hundred million years ago it was a separate micro-continent between what is now Florida and what is now Bohemia.

John Reid Listening to archive
I can listen to Archive programmes up to a year old but those more a year old do not load. Has anyone else had this problem?

Katrina Frape Death of Elizabeth 1
I love In Our Time, never miss it except when it won't transmit, which is what happened with the latest programme. I looked forward to the Death of Elizabeth 1 discussion all week. It tries to come, I see the opening credits, then it fades to Doesn't Appear to be Working Try Again Later. What's happening to this particular episode? The transmission has been great for months.

Dave- re Themistocles on Akhenaten
CAN ANYONE IMAGINE THE BIRTH OF DEMOCRACY IN A MONOTHEISTIC FRAMEWORK?How very strange as nearly all democracies of the universal suffrage type (ie democracies) have come as a direct derivitive of Christian equalitarianism. Mos def in blighty! Here is living proof. Soap box debates perhaps a good topic for IOT?

Fiona
What a fantastic find on your website - whilst home from work due to illness and stuck in bed I discovered your wonderful world of knowledge and entertainment. thank you and your guests on all the varying and equally interesting topices - and I've only started, completely hooked....

In Our Time Melvyn Bragg
I enjoy this programme immensely.I should like to by a Box Set of the entirety of every programme. Other than by podcast I cannot see that this is available.Is it likely to be created for future sale?

Melvyn Bragg's Elizabeth I
Can't seem to listen to the program, can the problem be rectified, please?Thank you,Anuschka ElkeiVancouver, Canada

Michael Smart
Two days running and your latest programe is still not available.

Brian Kelly: Dreyfus Affair
A very informative programme which went a long way to explaining the divsions and directions taken in French politics in the 20th century.

Peter Household - Elizabeth I and succession
I was intrigued to learn that it was up to the monarch to will the crown to whomever she chose. Can anyone tell me when that regime began. With the Norman conquest? And when did it end? In 1688? Or maybe it is still the case? I presumed that it was either primogeniture pure and simple, or failing that Parliament or the Privy Council or something decided the succession, and that it always had been so; but clearly I was wrong.

R R Riddiough Newsletter on Elizabeth
Wonderful as always,but, there is always a but! Ilkley is a Yorkshire town

Travelling through the desert with In Our Time
Dear MelvynI live in Dubai and every tuesday evening I drive through the desert to Al Ain on the Oman border. Its a long dark drive and I am always comforted and entertained by In Our Time which I play via podcast in the car. Just wanted to say a very big thank you to yourself and your guests. Hope I don't hit a camel because i'm not concentrating .....Chris

THEMISTOCLES- Elisabeth I
I think that the chracterisation ‘golden age’ is over the top. The problem with these monarchs is that they claimed divine rule while they knew very well that nothing was further from the truth. So, what you are left with is a disgusting smell of Machiavellian politics (with small p). I am not sure if it is fortunate or unfortunate that English nationalism traditionally focused on underwhelming monarchs. An alternative scenario could had been a national pride for two pan-humanistic events: the development of English Drama and the human sacrifices that led to the Industrial revolution. The latter is one of the most important moments in human history. They were both based in the Elizabethan era, but Elizabeth had nothing to do with it.

The Old Testament
Dear In Our Time,If you haven't already covered the topic, it would be very interesting to have a programme addressing how the books of the Old Testament came to be collected togetherand vested with 'Divine' authority in the Christian and other Abrahamic faiths.Then on another occasion something similar on the New Testament in respect of the different denominations of the Christian tradition.Regards,Nicholas Dobson

Jackie York
Thursday's programme was fascinating and, as ever, entertaining and informative. The consistently high standard of In Our Time is extraordinary. Amongst the wealth of information on Elizabeth, your speakers this week were so lucid, communicating so vividly, that the Elizabethan age lived for 45 minutes. Loved the thought of James "hunting" his way down the A1. And I relish the newsletter which gives the impression that Melvyn is a friend. Perhaps we can persuade him to come to our Literary Festival in Kings Sutton? What a treat that would be.

Terry Sessford - General
I have long been an avid listener to 'In Our Time', which is by far my favourite programme on Radio 4, however I have been disappointed by the lack of science subjects in the current series. Having said that, next week's 'The Geological Formation of Britain' looks very promising. But I would appreciate greater coverage of contemporary physics, biology and mathematics subjects (set within their historical context, in accordance with the rationale behind IOT). Thank you.

Roger Luther - Death of Elizabeth 1
I would have liked to have heard who the alternative claimants to the throne were, and how strong their claims were. Anyone got any ideas?Roger

John Sudbery - James' voice
I heard only the last 15 mins of the prog, so hope I'm not duplicating. Would James' accent have sounded like that of a stranger to the people (especially those who were movers and shakers or smart young men in go-getting society) in London? Not only from the non-London orbit, but the voice from another country coming to rule us, after the dear queen from time immemorial (mind you over the next few centuries, I guess that became pretty familar, what with Germans and Dutchmen etc, ha, ha!) More concretely, what would his accent have sounded like?

Death of Elisabeth I
Elizabeth became more paranoid in her last years and many decisions were made without her permission because she had become less and less decisive, beneath her rouge and wrinkles there is a suggestion the lead in her make up had affected her brain.In the way she handled the executions of Essex and Mary she wished to appear feminine, not rushing to lop off their heads.As your speakers say there was great irresponsibility in her decision not to name a successor,emphasising sunrise of her reign rather than sunset,immortality rather than mortality.Her ring symbolised hermarriage to the state,having to be cut off(and taken to James).The 1590s is an age of anxiety,economic instability, grain failures,price inflation,plagues,Catholicintrigues,increasing population,the increasing poverty of the majority,no provision for the succession,the Irish problem.In literatureShakespeare’s’how slow this old moon wanes’ and various poets show an impatience of her lingering,to get on with herpassing.She was beloved of her people and had been a popular monarch, Gloriana,the Virgin Queen.She had also become a Protestantmonarch,instituting its practises surrounded by weakened European kingdoms,the armed heroine of the Armada.Following her great funeral and death she was increasingly mythologised, even respected by the Pope.Her desire not to admit the inevitable(ie death) was comically related by your speakers,stabbing the arras,refusing to go to bed,suffering fever and sleeplessness.Although she never named a successor she halfcomplied by gesture and letter to James.He succeeded to the English crown at age 37styling himself ‘King of Great Britain’,never returning to Scotland,with his own philosophy of government,Basilikon Doron,and the divine right of kings.He becamea strong patron of the arts(development of the English masque) We also getlater in The Revenger’s Tragedy a sense of courtly corruption in the Jacobean court.The transition ofpower had been very smooth largelyarranged by Cecil.

Ray Treliving
'In Our Time' is the most consistently rewarding programme on any radio (or television) channel. A small beacon of light in a mist of mediocrity. Sincere thanks, Ray

Pawel Jedrzejewski - General
I am a big fan of IOT; in fact I've been listening to it for some two years now and it has proved to be my favourite programme in the BBC podcasts offer. I have used IOT podcasts to learn English (I'm a Warsaw Univeristy student of translation & interpreting) and just for fun - many of the topics Melvyn Bragg touches upon are fascinating! I particularly like the topics connected with physics and astronomy; to have such eminent scholars discussing a given complex topic is simply fantastic. Were it not for the IOT, I wouldn't have had the slightest idea about - say - gravitational waves:) Thank you so much BBC and Melvyn Bragg! PJ

Tom Grydeland -- none in particular
Over the two years I have actively used podcasts as a way of accessing audio content, your programme has been one of my few enduring favorites. Not many places can one enjoy the (relatively) unhurried elaborations of knowledgeable people on topics from all over the scale. A fantastic refuge from the "dumbed down" material available everywhere -- Thank you so much!--T

general
I have just discovered In Our Time. I am looking forward to catching up by listening to one past programme every morning before I get out of bed and then pontificating about it while I walk the dog! What a way to start the day! I would, seriously, pay a licence fee just for Radio Four. Thanks so much to Melvyn Bragg and his team.

Michael Durnin, The Dreyfus affair
To answer T Waugh: Esterhazy makes it into the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. After being dishonourably discharged from the French army, he escaped to England, and became a correspondent for various newspapers, including the French antisemitic Libre Parole. He was constantly in debt but managed to live a precarious existence as a journalist. He ended up in Harpenden, Hertfordshire, living as Count Jean de Voilemont. He died in Harpenden in 1923 and is buried in the west side of St Nicholas churchyard. A headstone was erected shortly after – appropriately with a false name, Voilemont, and a false birthdate – with an inscription from Shelley: ‘He has outsoared the shadow of our night’.I have a question that was not answered in this otherwise fascinating programme: why didn’t the court simply sentence Dreyfus to be executed? Surely an army officer accused of spying for the enemy at this time would have faced a firing squad?

THEMISTOCLES - The Dreyfus Affair
The conversation was really interesting to me, because Dreyfus was brought up in a German speaking environment, was a Jew and at the same time a fierce French patriot. A question of importance is how one can be considered as having English or French conscience? How the pride for one’s country is born, or even when are you of the same nation? Many people would present a list which includes same language, same religion, same historical identification, your birth etc. The separation of the French state from the church in 1905 implied that religion had no implication on being or not being French and that being a Catholic in the eyes of the ‘common good’ was not more important than being a cyclist or a swimmer. It became a personal choice. A French Jew was no different from a French Catholic, which leaves all other things in the list such as language, historical conscience etc. I would fully support a common language among many, but I would like to invite you to consider the example of one country, a federation of 26 small states with three major languages (French, German, Italian), with no ethnic homogeneity, no state religion (although many state sponsored official religions), that sees itself as glued together by the values of neutrality, federalism and direct democracy. This is of course Switzerland. The reason I mention it is because this is as a week foundation as you can get, implying that I am proud to be a Swiss because I like the country’s law. This is the point. In Switzerland a group of citizens can challenge the law and the constitution directly and bring about a referendum. The big decisions are not decided in parliament but directly by the people. Hence, the people respect the decision and respect themselves. In countries of parliamentary democracy, this self-respect is rare, the respect of law is weak, and you need a metaphysical historical conscience to glue a nation. Hence, church, tradition, and monarchies acquire renewed importance. On the other hand, in democracies the importance of law is maximised. In Athens (5th century BC) the law as decided by the citizens was written on marble. In Switzerland, foreign student who wish to enrol in their universities have firstly to sit an exam on Law and Constitution. A country can be glued solely on law if the law is decided directly by the people; only then it can be truly valued.

june lovell--dreyfus
this program has sparked much discussion in our house, especially appreciated background info providing insight into organization of french army and extent of anti-semitism. thanks for newsletter underscoring levels of dreyfus support internationally. hurrah for queen vic!

Valerie Archibald All the "In our Time" Programme
What wonderful programmes. Could there be another similar (again M. Bragg) that would run for two hours, therebye allowing more depth? Thanks for what we get anyway

Roger Laidlaw - mp3 download
This probably isn't the right place to mention this but I've been having trouble getting this series' episodes onto my mp3 player. All other tracks including other BBC programmes transfer without difficulty but all IOT tracks get a 'disc full' message. Very frustrating as I only listen to IOT on my player. The problem might be at my end but I wonder if there's been a change in way MP3s are prepared since the start of the new series?

June Harwood: Dreyfuss
Absolutely fascinating - the first time I have fully understood the affair despite numerous attempts. Thank you for such a wonderful programme (IOT) - one of the jewels of the BBC.

Al Weil; re: The Dreyfus Affair
I regret that the role played by George Clemenceau in the fight to get justice for Dreyfus was slighted in the presentation. He was the only newspaper editor who would dare print Zola's 'Letter to the President' and he gave it that famous headline: J'accuse... . He then rounded up 100's of newspaper boys to distribute the paper shouting: 'J'accuse.The 88 years-old Clemenceau died 80 years ago on 24 November 1929. I hope you will consider devoting a: 'In Our Time' programme to this hero of our time.

Pauline Smith - The Dreyfus Affair
Thoroughly enjoyed listening tonight. I have learnt so much from Melvyn Bragg's prodgrammes; Melvyn Bragg should never be allowed to retire.Thank you.

Sandi Dunn
8-10-09Just listened to the Dreyfus Affair with interest as I am in Paris at present.This is my first visit to this message board so can I ask your editor to ask the website people to get dates on the messages as it is very frustrating not to know when comments were made. Thank you (otherwise I hope those who post put dates on themselves for future readers.)

Eoin Dillon Dreyfus and al-Megrahi
Listening to the program on the Dreyfus affgair, it was difficult not to be reminded of the recent furore over the release of the Libyan, Ali al-Megrahi convicted for the Lockerbie bombing.The evidence against al-Megrahi has been seriously questioned, and some very senior legal figures have questioned the verdict(for an account of the case exonerating al-Megrahi, see the London Review of Books, 24 Sept. 2009. Al-Megrahi forwent a full retrial infavour of release on humanitarian grounds,as Dreyfus accepted a guilty verdict with exonerating circumstances so they could survive a little longer, which allowed various governemnts maintain that they had still been properly convicted, and that no stain attached to their legal process. Unlike Dreyfus,the Arab al-Megrahi was unable to rely on a political moblisation in his defence, rather the government(s)involved were attacked for being 'soft on terorism'. Those eople who recoil in disgust on reading this should remember: that is exactly how the anti-Dreyfusards reacted.

t waugh dreyfus affair
thouroughly enjoyed v informative programme, but was surprised not to find out what happened to esterhazy who was after all thecause of the whole thing because of his spying.

Lindsay Millar: The Hanseatic League
Don't know where else to put this...would the producer consider doing a programme on the Hanseatic League...it came up in conversation yesterday and a group of us realised we knew nothing about it, apart from the name. Thanks,

Sean Ellman "The Dreyfus Affair"
A great program.Just acouple of things which should have be mentioned in passing if not fully covered as I`m sure they would constitute another program in themselves.The progam failed to mention the impact which the Dreyfus affair had on Hertzl in relation to the foundations of modern Zionism.It also failed to make the connection between late 19th century anti-sematism on the left and early 21st century anti-sematism /anti-zionism on the left.

John: The Dreyfus Affair
The Dreyfus case was an eruption of the latent xenophobia of many Frenchmenat the time of the case.Anti-semitism was an off-shoot of this poisonous growth.This uneducated,visceral anti-semitism equated Jews at one and the same time with foreigners and’money-power’,exactly as it did in Hitler’s Germany. This inflamed ‘spy-fever’. Suspicious of Germany and uneasy in her isolation,the Third French Republic erected the army into a Church,the general staff its priesthood,until a discarded scrap of paper touched off a 12 year scandal which brought down the mighty and altered the climate of Frenchpolitics. Dreyfus was an exception as he’d been made Captain,was a wealthy Jew of Alsation origin.His fellow officers were anti-semite.Dreyfus was guilty by race.Esterhazy was the guilty manspotted by Lieutenant-Colonel Picquart,he was a rogue in contact withSchwartzkoppen,his handwriting was clearly identical to that of the bordereau.The military establishment acquit Major Esterhazy due to no wish to ‘substitute’him for Dreyfus. We get the Major Henry forgery of a false letter to establish Dreyfus’s guilt beyond doubt.Then Zola’ famous ‘J’Accuse’ to the Presidentof the Republic published inL’Aurore. He accuses Esterhazy’s judges,the officers who directed the investigation of Dreyfus,two war ministers,chief and assistant chief of general staff,the handwriting experts,the departments of the war ministery for misleading public opinion.He indicts the 1st court martial for violating the lawin convicting an accused person on the evidence of a secret document;he indicts the 2nd court martial of having covered up this illegality by committing in its turn the judicial crime of knowingly acquitting a guilty person.Too many people in high places had been compromised by the irregularities of the 1st trial,and by the manoeuvres of the ‘collusion’,willingly to allow light to be thrown on their doings.That Dreyfus was refound guilty with extenuating circumstances shows the fear of finding him innocent and putting the army in the dock.There was amnesty for the army. The forces of anti-clericalism gained the upper hand and the extreme right wing forces of the clergy took the hit,the gulf between the civil and militaryauthorities became wider.The leftist policy of republican defence aimed at reinforcing civil power against clerical and military infringements.As your speakers said this tookthe Church out of French education and it became secularised.It also kept the right wing out of power for a long time.Its political consequences were far reaching following the separation of Church and State in 1904.

Ruth Silvestre - Dreyfus affair
I always listen and enjoy the programme- but this really intrigued me as I have just published a book called Final Performance which deals in part with the murder of the actor William Terriss at the stage door of the Adelphi in Dec 1897. In 1895 Seymour Hicks wrote a play closely based on the Dreyfus affair called 'One of the Best' in which the officer is innocent, disgraced, and eventually pardoned. It was a true melodrama and with the anti-French feeling at the time this was a winner and ran for many months - (in spite of Shaw's review calling it 'One of the Worst'!) Seymour Hicks declares in his book, 'Between Ourselves' that Terriss's murderer , one Richard Archer Prince,a bit-part player already showing signs of madness was finally driven over the edge by being given a cod rehearsal playing the Dreyfus part. So, in its way,the Dreyfus affair had ramifications far beyond the shores of France.

Sally Pearson, The Dreyfus Affair
Have just listened, from France, to your fascinating discussion of the Dreyfus Affair. It was so good to have such a clear, balanced exposé of what happened. My husband and I moved to France from Durham two years ago, and have thoroughly enjoyed immersing ourselves in this country's rich culture, language and history (especially here in the Vendée, which has a unique view of both Revolution and Republic!). Listening to your superb programme will help us be able to deepen our research and understanding....so give us more snapshots of French and European history please! Thank you to Melvyn and all the contributors - we await Ruth's book with joy!

SB/Dreyfus
Very interesting program on Alfred Dreyfuss and I just want to point out that there is an excellent article about the affair by Adam Gopnik in the September 28 issue of the New Yorker which covers various points not discussed in the program; for instance, that when Dreyfus was imprisoned on Devil's Island he was at least provided with books and paper, reading among others Tolstoy, Nietzsche, French classics and especially Shakespeare, teaching himself English in order to read the originals and making notes on them.

David Wallace: Akhenaten
IOT certainly opens windows. The year has only just begun, but I think I can say now that the discussion on Akhenaten is one I'll be returning to during the summer vac of 2010. - I've listened to it three times already!

Glenn in Ontario/Thanks, Downloads?
I'd like to thank Melvyn Bragg and the producers of the show for creating one of the true gems of the web: the In Our Time podcast. I can't tell you how many times it has lifted me out of the dreariness of my long commute. I don't know what I'd do without it. Like others who have posted here, I have longed to download past episodes, and I hope the BBC might make it possible to do so. Sincerely, a faithful listener. p.s. Happy Birthday Melyvn

John Toohey - Simon Schaffer
There are a few regular guests on In Our Time we can rely to make the programme work but Simon Schaffer stands out for his wit as much as his knowledge. The way he can bring a detail in from the outfield and explain its relevance is a gift. His opening remarks on the Liebniz Newton episode, reminding us they both have biscuits named after them, was a perfect example. Are there any other scientists so honoured by bakers? I hope to hear more from him this season.

Wes Peacock - Happy Birthday
Happy Birthday Melvyn, may you outdo Alistair Cooke.

Peter Household - Akhenaten, monotheism
Surprised to read in the newsletter that there is a fierce battle over who invented monotheism, and the suggestion (which also came up in the programme) that Moses might have been influenced by Akhenaten. According to my understanding Moses, in the first place, is most likely a legendary rather then historical figure; and secondly, insofar as he existed at all, he taught that Yahweh was the god that the Israelites should follow exclusively; NOT that Yahweh was the one and only god. See also Psalm 81 (82), which is considered to be amongst the earliest biblical books we have. I further understood that the Jews were influenced towards monotheism by the Zoroastrianism they were exposed to in the Babylonian exile (at earliest). I have even seen it suggested that it was not until around the time of Jesus that the Jews became monotheistic in the modern sense. There is a view that up until that period, they did not deny other gods and powers, merely deemed them puny and invalid. See also comments on henotheism, by Themistocles below.

Hephzibah - Akhenaten.
Another excellent programme. I have read quite a lot about Akhenaten, and think it was a good balanced programme on a fascinating subject. There is so much we don't know! Can't know.Yes please,to second Chris Thorn - there are so many superb programmes we can't hear them all - yes, please make them ALL available to download. I particularly want to hear a number of science and philosophy topics again, or catch those I have missed. I had some on my computer but lost it when I had to sort out a problem

Jane - Akhenaten and Melvyn's newsletter
You've really set the stage for further insights into this charismatic culture. I can't remember where it was (possibly Salzburg), but I remember going to an exhibition of ancient Egyptian glass and seeing artifacts which were astonishingly fabulous. More on Egypt would be very welcome. Many thanks and best wishes as always.

Trevor Gould Happy Birthday
Dear Melvyn - 'Happy Birthday'. Forty's frightening but Seventy's super. You've reached your entitlement in biblical years and from now every year, every day, every moment is time to be savoured. Enjoy itTrevor Gould

THEMISTOCLES - Akhenaten
This programme focused a lot on the Akhanaten's relationship with the monotheistic tradition. All the participants shared a fascination for his religion reform. The usefulness of the idea was never discussed. Akhanaten did not only produce a single god, he also proclaimed himself the son of god and the only one who knows god’s will. Even if one is prompted by philosophical enquiry, the audacity of the argument in combination with state power is hard not to lead towards oppression both materially and intellectually. Monotheisms have usually passed though the stages of polytheism to henotheism to monotheism. This is true for the Judaic religion too. Most importantly, this process ends up with the one priest (or emperor) of the one god giving a law, which is not questioned (see Old Testament), and in violence. Examples include the killings ordered by the Jewish god against the Jewish people that didn’t pray in him (Exodus);the immense barbaric attack of the first Christian state against the Hellenic civilization; the letters of St Paul in the bible considering the mass burning of Greek books a sign of faith and especially his letter to Titus advising that the faithful should serve their masters in life as if they serve Jesus, obey all their orders and satisfy all their desires. The idea behind monotheism is a power game. Under what logic could one conclude the three Judaic religions of today are superior to Hinduism? Polytheism has served humanity well in one sense. CAN ANYONE IMAGINE THE BIRTH OF DEMOCRACY IN A MONOTHEISTIC FRAMEWORK? Many gods imply many opinions, no orthodoxy, dialogue, and no absolute power of one. On the other hand, the idea that the moral as well as the legal power is produced and exercised by the people, is alien to the structure of all monotheisms and this is true for Akhanaten too. The only exception is the Aristotelian theism which is much nearer to today’s atheism that to Aquinas’s Christendom. In the Aristotelian light, the numerical questions about god, and even the question of its mere existence are not of central importance. What is important is this: Can god be a being (in a material or spiritual sense) and if in existence can he be interested in human affairs, and if interested in human affairs can he intervene in our lives and can he offer us an after-death life superior to the one we have? Aristotle answered No to all of these questions like many Greeks before him, and if this were not so democracy would had been impossible. Polytheism in its simplicity and imperfection has served humanity well (I am not a religious person- I only recognise the fact.) Please, re-read the Homeric dialogue between Achilles and Ulysses in Hades and think.

Penelope / Akenaten
Melvyn's 'biblical sufficiency of time', as mentioned in his newsletter, surely requires recognition and celebration by all us dedicated and grateful In Our Timers? Though how can I ever say thank you enough to one who has given so much mental stimulation and sustenance over the years. Happy Birthday Melvyn, and congratulations. 70 is fun!

Gordon: Re Akhenaten
I wish your 'experts' had given more explanation of how the Aten differed from Re/Ra as it's something that's puzzled me for a long time. The Aten is described as 'The Sun's Disc'- but surely historically this must have been the origin of the Egyptian's worship of the sun (as with other sun cults)? So in pre-dynastic Egypt the depiction of the sun as disc/circle etc. would have been common. Surely therefore Akhenaten was just 'reinventing the wheel' (forgive the almost pun)!So when/how does Re/Ra take over? Maybe Akhenaten wasn't such the heretic he's been depicted throughout Ancient Egyptian history?

Richard - ducks in the park
Great to have you back - most enjoyable prog on the radio - but really missing newsletter commentary on what's happened to the ducks in St James' Park? Has it become such a big story that you're going to do a show on it, or is all well with the pond and it's merely to be a footnote in the newsletter when you next stroll to HofL? - we have a right to know!!!

program sugestion
Can you help me setting the beginning of Homosapiens and the separation of the continents in a time scale?As I understand homosapiens originated in Africa and spread across the globe. Had the continents already separated?If, no then just a very long walk will do itIf, yes how on earth did they do it? Groups like the “lost” tribes of the Amazons? Unlikely they sailed across?And just for good measure , why is there such a large difference in physical appearance?ThanksCasper.Shotley gate

Cath. Akhenaten
I enjoyed the discussion, especially as I have just finished reading 'Amarna The Missing Evidence' which reveals the identity of Smenkhkare, Akhenaten's heir and describes the life of Akhenaten, Nefertiti and their daughters. Missed the first ten mins, so am about to LA.

Johnthebarman. Akenaten and 'In Our Time'
Another fascinating programme in a series providing historical links to present ideas. What a wonderful format, the real discussion of the history of ideas by leading people in their fields with the unique Melvyn. Radio 4 is the best of broadcasting and ‘In Our Time’ its best series. Dave Turner further extends a link to 'Oedipus' and Velikovsky. We struggle to find meaning and new ideas from the past add grist to the mill. My thanks to all involved in the series.

Chris Thorn - Accessibility
I would like to add a further voice to the request for all the episodes to be downloadable. This programme is a phenomenal resource and to my mind represents the very best of public service broadcast. It seems rather a waste to require the listener to be wedded to the computer when many of us listen whilst on the move. If this is not possible - could I ask why not?

Dave Turner. Akhenaten
It was interesting but so much seemed to be left out. I was hoping for a bit more about the various theories about him. Oedipus was mentioned - that will be the book Oedipus and Akhenaten by Immanuel Velikovsky. He makes an excellent case for the story of Oedipus being the story of Akhenaten, it might even be true. If you haven't done a programme on Velikovsky I'm sure you would have fun making it.

Paulpic Nefertiti was no Nut
Maybe Akhenaten was the first to try following the path opened by the end of the "Bicameral Mind" (Jaynes).

John-Akhenaten
Akhenaten(formerly Amenhotep IV) radicalised the state religion from polytheism to henotheism,which is the worship of the solar god, Aten,while acknowledging lesser gods. Some authorities saw Akhenaten as the ‘first individual’,others as a megalomaniac,placing himself at the centre of worship.Within 2 years of his reign he was building temples to the Aten or divine sun-disc at Karnak,doing away with the worship of a pantheon of gods,religious ceremonies and festivals.He’d changed his name from Amenhotep IV to Akhenaten in honour of this god.Was he a pantheist or atheist with his pagan worship of the sun?It was already state policy under his father to elevate the solar god Re, to diminish the influence of the priesthood,so it was the next logical step.But this did away with traditional practices of worship that structured ordinary people’s lives. People may have carried on with their own beliefsas your speakers said minor figures of the gods are found in archeological digs and the cultural changes only affected the elites.His naturalistic philosophy of light evokes the wonders of the natural world,animals and birds are seen frolicking beneath the rays of the rising sun in the decoration of the royal tomb.We also get intimate portrayals of the king and Nefertiti playing with their daughters beneath Aten’s rays. Anthropomorphic deities have been replaced by domestic triads of father,mother and child.The portrayal of the human figure is highly stylised,elongated skulls and pear-shaped bodies with full hips, stomachs and thighs.Eternity is no longer worshipped but day to day activities.Most drastically he moved himself and all his people 250 miles to Middle Egypt in Amarna,a desert site bounded on 3 sides by cliffs and to the west by the Nile.Teams of workmen were sent around temples in Egypt to chisel out the names and images of traditional gods.Akhenaten also changed temple architecture using smaller blocks of stone set in strong mortar.On the plane near the Nile massive temples to the Aten were constructed:these were open to the sky and sun(previous ceremonies were held by powerful priesthood in the dark recesses of their temples),source of light and life.Now Aten was the sole god,Akhenaten had created the world’s 1st monotheistic religion,regarded as heresy by the priests.The King leftinscriptions on the cliffs saying what he intended to do,that hewas ‘directed to come here by Aten’. Palaces, temples,houses emerged,workshops,grain silos,wells,streets and courtyards.A city with 30-50,000 inhabitants dedicated to the solar cult,merchants, workers and courtiers,rich and poor living side by side.Workers clusteredaround the noble mansions of their benefactors in densely packed dwellings.To the east of the city a valley led into the desert in which the king excavated tombs.This was another break with traditional burials for royal families(in the Valley of Kings).From archaeological evidence we see his innovations in art and inscriptions(using colloquiallanguage),the animated depictions of the royal family fanned by rays of the sun. That Nefertiti was his co-regent,a god like himself,that their family were to be admired and loved, and only through whom the population could gain access to the Aten, his ‘father’.In the artworks the importance of abundance of food offered to Aten along with prayer is paramount.There is evidence of 1800 tables piled high with food. Though Aten was fed abundantly his people did not thrive.They suffered from anaemia,died young,were overworked, underfed and endured an epidemic of sorts.Akhenaten died in his 17th year on the throne and reforms did not survive for long:Amarna was abandoned,his son, Tutankhamun(changed name), reverted to Egypt’straditional gods and religious centres. Akhenaten’s image and names was removed from monuments and official king-lists.Amarna crumbled back into the desert.Only archaeology and Tutankhamun have made him one of the most famous rulers of ancient Egypt. Perhaps’Ozymandias’ by Shelley best sums his life up.

In our time Akhanetan
I missed this programme because i didnt know it was on. Will you be repeating this particular edition again soon?

Andrew Bailey - ancient Egypt and the Aten
When discussing the most significant cultural upheavel of ancient Egypt is there any chance you can talk more about why it happened....? That would be the truely fascinating discussion.

Jack Hudson. Akenhaten.
Dear Mr Bragg, I recommend you contact and talk to Laurence Gardner for a different, extensively researched perspective regarding the above.I thank you in anticipation.Jack Hudson.

Max Wallis
Patricia Fara responded to my Comment (below) that she'd addressed the issue in her book 'Newton: The making of genius'.I didn't think she does cover the actual questions (I replied):# Did the feud hold back mathematics?nor whether > Newton's belief in an interventionist god, > attacks on his scientist contemporaries, > and converting the Royal Society into a personal enterprisewere harmful to the progress of science.I referred to a Review of her book that concludes:There is a problem with the well-worn postmodernist point that Newton is what we have made him: Why have we made him anything at all? The answer to that question must surely involve science and ideas, as well as scientists and their images. After all, the cantankerous and elderly Newton, who has always vied for public attention alongside the promising youth with his apple, fought his intellectual battles with Leibniz and others to prove that he had actually been right, not just to seem that way to generations astonished by his skulduggery. [[Scott Mandelbrote, History, Peterhouse, University of Cambridge]].That helps us understand why modern historians of science tend to duck questions re. progressing science. So Melvyn needs to press the point on behalf of those who believe in scientific progress.

Newton and Leibniz
Dear Melvyn,I very much enjoyed the “In Our Time” discussion of some of the principal mathematical ideas of Newton and Leibniz. I would like to add support for your own astute observation, confirmed by your guests, that Calculus was/is an idea born purely of the creative human imagination. That is to say natural philosophy as an approach of pure (objective) observation of the natural world, could never alone have led to its invention. Calculus was not a “discovery” it was an invention of mind giving rise to the ‘tools’ of differentiation and integration. What was the simple idea? The idea began with the idea (shared by many at the time) that to calculate the area beneath a curve you needed to divide it up into infinitesimally small slithers and then add them up. Hence the root of the word calculus (which I don’t think was noted in the program) is related to small stones or pebbles used for counting.Progress in human understanding is a multi-layered affair involving ideas building upon) earlier ideas/observations/discoveries. Newton was sufficiently humble to observe that in the formulation of his own ideas he had been “standing on the shoulders” of his forebears. The ‘evolution’ of human ideas towards a progressive understanding of universal phenomena has been a ‘sedimentary’ affair. Thus the invention of the conceptual ‘tools’ of mathematics and algebra were necessary to the eventual evolution of the ‘tool’ of calculus. At root this apparently intellectual creation was born of humans (philosophers?) seeking enlightenment as to “how things worked”. If we go further back in history to the beginning of this path we find Archimedes who became fascinated with the practical question of the displacement of water. His self striking revelation was that the up-thrust on a material body, completely of partially immersed in a fluid, is equal to the weight of fluid displaced. This of course was the awakening of observational thought to the relevance of volume mass and density to ‘displacement’. Volume, mass and density were therefore continuous variables of central importance to Newton’s own laws of motion as applied to the paths/trajectories followed by objects under the force of gravity. Thus the time was ripe for the development of a mathematics of curvilinear relationships.The key problem for Newton, Leibniz (and others) was to minimise the inaccuracy inherent in using polygons (using the point gradient/tangent as one of its sides) to represent continuous rather than ‘blocky’ change. The actually leap in imagination that made the difference was the idea of introducing infinitesimally small changes (an unknown changes “dx” for a given change ‘dy’) which when squared in the resulting summation could be left out. That is to say the square (or cube in the case of volume) of an infinitesimally small fraction approaches zero and thus can be effectively taken out of the equation i.e. a fraction multiplied by itself gets smaller. Essentially it was the idea of introducing unknown infinitesimally small changes and then later removing them for the sake of simplification of the equation that was revolutionary. In this way a point gradient could then be simply estimated with the tool of differentiation and area could be estimated easily with integration.Seeking to resolve the question of who actually had this leap in imagination in the first place (perhaps, more a question of vanity) is less important than the question of why and when it was it invented. Essentially it was born out of the necessity of the time to solve a real world problem; a problem that had, one might say, “come of age”. Throughout human history “necessity” of course has often been the true ‘mother’ of invention … but why had this question become so important? Why were philosopher/mathematicians so dedicated to resolving this question? I believe apart from the practical benefits of simplifying the mathematics of continuous change there were core philosophical reasons to do with Newton’s understanding of matter (as inert substance) and his equations of moti

Ian Banks - Leibniz vs Newton
I think IOT is an excellent programme. Thank heavens for podcasts. I would miss it without them.I enjoyed the Leibniz v Newton programme this week but felt it meandered around the subject a bit too much.I wanted to learn more so I visited the IOT website for the first time hoping to find references to suitable next step material in print and on the web. I was disappointed not to see anything.This would be easy for your guests to provide and a big improvement to the usefulness of the website.

David Wolfe; Leibniz and Newton
From an aborted emailDear Lord BraggAs someone deeply interested in my field of physics, and especially its history and philosophy, I was most interested in Thursday's programme. I was puzzled about the reference to Leonhard Euler as a Russian matehmatician (sorry to worry about such trivia). Euler was, of course, a brilliant Swiss and his portrait was on the Swiss 10 franc note for years. He was unable to find a decent job in Switzerland due to the monopoly on such positions by the Bernoulli family (deeply involved with the Leibniz-Newton controversy of course). Therefore, he went to St Petersburg where he spent much of his working life.On a personal note, I was a bit frustrated at the programme as I have written a 50,000 word monograph on Newton and his enmity with Hooke, Flamsteed and Leibniz and must admit to a small feeling of jealousy. "Too much high-powered competition" in the book world to get it published I'm told. But not important.On a much more important note, I admire your weekly programme immensely and am an avid listener. I cannot imagine a more pleasureable career than to spend time in this most Renaissance manner. Well done and please continue.Best wishesDavid WolfeDavid WolfeProfessor of Physics EmeritusUniversity of New Mexico

John-Leibnitz vs Newton
We’ve had the measurement problem in physics,this was about the publication problem in mathematics. Newton was secretive about his invention of ‘fluxions’(calculus) as his method was still clumsy and obscure.He wrote in his letters and papers about calculus but he was not confident enough to publish in 1660s or the 1670s due to fear of criticism. Leibnitz independently invented calculus in 1674-5.Coming out of the 30 years war Leibnitz was motivated to invent a powerful universal tool of mathematics expressed in a language of symbols.As your speaker said they came to calculus from different approaches: Newton’s focus is Time as the absolute measure,temporal change,variation in time,rates of variation in time.We are not in the world of the Greek circle,timeless,perfect,but in the world of planetary ellipses from Kepler’s discoveries.How to represent the motion of a body in an instant,the time through which a planet has been orbiting.The new mathematics defined and operated with instantaneous motion and the infinitesimal step.Newton looked to the real world to evolve calculus:rates of change and movement and the slope of a curve.Leibnitz’s emphasis is on changing Space:he is finding areas under curves by dividing areas up into thin slices and thenadding them all together(integration). Newton attacked Leibnitz by saying infinitesimally small things don’t exist,but he was glossing over what he did and Leibnitz made explicit. Leibnitz is showing how quantities vary with each other and to capturetheir representation with the superposition of areas(the organization of spacesand the relationship between spaces) in the geometry of space. His inventionof the symbolic calculus notation was a great imaginative act and as a philosopher of genius he developed analytical logic in a world based on reason not power.He invented the word ‘dynamics’ for science, and mathematics becomes a dynamic modeof thought.He gave a rigorous meaning to the concept of an infinitesimal step.He was a mathematician and a mathematical physicist of genius. Newton’s campaign against Leibnitz(using the whole armoury of the Royal society) for plagiarism was effective and damaging.The differential and integral calculus was invented independently by Newton and Leibnitz.It is Newton who emerged with credit.He was given a state funeral, Leibnitz died dishonoured and unknown. However,a careful examination of the papers of Leibniz and Newton shows that they arrived at their results independently, with Leibniz starting first with integration and Newton with differentiation.We must view them as two monads coming independentlyto the same invention. Leibnitz’s contribution was to provide a clear set of rules for manipulating infinitesimal quantities, also his emphasis on formalism-– he often spent days determining appropriate symbols for concepts.His notation survived andthe name’calculus’ carrying the history of mathematics on its shoulders.Therefore we honour Leibnitz.

Jane - Leibniz and Newton
Can't remember it very well, but I once read an aphorism to do with the power of 'an idea whose time has come'. I've noticed that it's often several people who 'have' the same idea somewhat simultaneously and wonder how much the idea comes 'from' and how much 'to' the individual. Sometimes it's almost as though part of the process is a drawing together or coinciding of particular elements or aspects within the general framework until a point of certain mass is reached and the receptive or prepared mind can grasp it.....necessity often, though not always, being the mother of invention. When it's so distantly posthumous, is all of this "who was first" stuff so important? There may be somebody totally unknown to mainstream history who was truly "the first".... and probably thousands have remained 'unsung' throughout the course of centuries. I'm not being disrespectful, I take a real delight in society's genuinely 'bright sparks', past and present, but find it hard to put them on high pedestals (with the single exception of the wonderful Alan Bennett). I suppose I have a rather pleasurable "Wow, thanks mate" feeling - a warm gratitude for their contribution to the scheme of things. Adulation I find rather unhealthy. Anyway, it's a tribute to (the also wonderful) Melvyn that he brought interest to a subject which, in the course of our general education, drained the life force and confidence out of far too many of us....."Thanks mate!" Best wishes as always.

Max Wallis: Leibniz & Newton
Too much time spent on preliminaries to the feud, but we did learn that# the English all sided with Newton# Newton re-wrote history – like the apple myth, which accorded himself priority over gravitation, despite Robert Hooke’s lecture to the Royal Society (1666) on gravitation being “one of the most Universall Active Principles in the World”# when Leibniz appealed to the Royal Society (1708), Newton wrote the unsigned report judging himself in the right.Did the feud hold back mathematics? Jackie Stedall’s denial did not convince, given that English maths stuck with Newton’s clumsy formulation, while the Leibniz school’s symbolic algebraic approach roared ahead on the continent, especially with Euler (1736).Melvyn Bragg’s Newsletter admits to Newton being “secretive, mean-minded, perhaps a bit of a plagiarist” but loyally declares “none of this takes away at all from his prime place in the history of science”.High time, surely, that the English admitted Newton’s belief in an interventionist god, attacks on his scientist contemporaries, and converting the Royal Society into a personal endeavour were all harmful to the progress of science.I wrote challenging Bragg in “People & Science of last March, but still await his response

James Baring - Newton and Leibnitz
I agree about the 'nugget' referenced by Peter Household, but it worries me that the 'best of all possible worlds' argument is not better understood by all. We must by definition live in the best of all possible worlds to the extent that the problems in it are either of our own making or dependent on us for their removal or resolution. That includes the possible loss of an eye, leg or ear, as the alternative would be to never have any of the aforementioned in the first place. The emphasis is on the word 'possible', and we should take into account the last 14 billion years of change. Leibnitz was certainly right about Voltaire, and in turn only approximately right when he said the only really worthwhile occupation is the cultivation of the vine.

Berrada.M.Ali
the debate of this week on the history of calculus was good and instructive, however, much could be done if the invited Professors have dedicated much time to the explanation of the historical backgroung about the mathematical concepts used before the invention of calculus , for example the concept of function

Boris Leibniz vs Newton
The bias towards Newton in Britain is irrational and overwhelmingly nationalistic....which is hardly scientific. Your programme reflected this! For some reason the English can't think kindly of us Europeans.

"The System of the World"
I'd just like to recommend Neal Stephenson's wonderful novel "The System of the World" as further reading on the subject of Leibniz and Newton and their times. He is particularly good on Leibniz and the Hanovarian princesses.One thing still puzzles me: Leibniz came at calculus by thinking about dividing space (integral calculus) while Newton was more interested in time (differential calculus) so it seems odd that Newton's followers primarily worked with geometry while Leibniz's school went in an algebraic direction. The old idea that differential calculus is "easier" that integral was also trotted out, and certainly this is the order it is usually taught in. But I certainly found it the other way round - I think it depends on whether you are primarily a visual or abstract thinker. Unfortunately most mathematicians and maths teachers are the latter and assume everyone else is the same!Jim (below): You must have been listening to a different program! It was very clearly brought out that Newton had control of the Royal Society and virtually dictated it's report on the controversy.

Kevan Martin - Leibniz & Newton
Isn't it interesting that the two greatest English scientists - Darwin and Newton - both got into a tangle about priority of publication? Darwin handled his relations with Alfred Wallace rather better that Newton did with Leibniz. The problem of assigning priority was nominally solved by the founding in 1665 of the first scientific journals - Journal des Scavans, and the Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society. The date of reception of the manuscript, or the date of publication then fixed the priority. With the advent of e-publication ahead of print, this mark in time has become blurred because the print version, which is the cited version, may only appear as late as a year after the e-publication. Tralaticious citations also blur greatly issues of priority in science, and now if the article cannot be easily downloaded, it is never read, let alone cited, even if it describes the original discovery.

To Website Administrator re MP3's - Keith Wild
Dear WA, this discussion page is cluttered with requests for downloadable versions of archived programmes. My understanding is that they are not available after seven days for some obscure copyright reasons. So could you please do one of two things. Either state this clearly on the Archives - Listen Again page so that everyone is aware of this; or if I am mistaken and there are no such copyright or other reasons, then please make them available. That way we can have this page for discussion about the topics, not about MP3's and i-Tunes etc.

Leibnitz and Newton:calculus
Leibnitz invented calculus not knowingNewton had already done so,and he published it before Newton did:in fact it is his notation,not Newton's,that we use to this day.And he was among the greatest of philosophers.Leibnitz'swork was published in 1684,Newton's in 1687.The consequent dispute as to priority was unfortunate,and discreditable to all parties.Just thinkwhat would have happened if Watson published his theory of evolution before Darwin did,who would we remembertoday?

Muray Lamshed
Yes, I noted it was said Euler was Russiam. Well, Catherine employed him and he is buried in St Petersburg but he was Swiss. Another great broadcast.

Deleuze
Dear Melvyn Bragg apologies for writing here I did not notice any other contact route. Its just that I have found all your programs so illuminating on subjects which were previously not clear to me, I am just wondering if there are any plans to ever cover the work of Gilles Deleuze in an episode as I believe thats the only way I can understand his theories

Peter Household - Leibniz & Newton
If I were to single out one nugget, it would be this (around minute 29 of the podcast):- Jackie Stedall was explaining about infinitesimal quantities, which she said marked a clear break from Greek mathematics. Infinitesimal quantities may or may not exist, but it is the manipulation of them which led to the calculus. Melvyn asked: “It’s entirely imaginative in its origins then?” “Yes, it is.” “So we’re talking about a work of the imagination?” “We are really, yes.” She went on to say that there were great debates even in the 17th century about whether these infinitely small quantities are something or nothing. Either way you get a paradox. Both Leibniz and Newton knew this, and failed to resolve it. But the calculus was so powerful that no-one was going to give it up “because there a few arguments down at the foundations”.peterhousehold@yahoo.co.uk

Anthony Ray
I managed to get a copy of Aquinas downloaded - the first program available since Ediacara it seems. What happened to all the ones in between? Very glad that Calculus is also available. Hope very much that Akhnaton will be. I live on Downloads - and don't get reception here in Australia.

THEMISTOCLES, Leibniz vs Newton
I think this was one of the better discussions. Two points of importance: Firstly there are good reasons to suggest that it was perfectly possible for both Leibniz and Newton to reach their conclusions independently. The key to this was overlooked although mentioned in the discussion. They both had classical Greek and Latin education as this is demonstrated through their mathematics and their philosophy. This is the common denominator. It is certain that they both were familiar with Euclid’s ‘Elements’ and hence with Book 10 which contains Eudoxus’s Method of Exhaustion (proposition 10.1). Eudoxus was a Greek mathematician from Cnidus that lived in the 4th century BC. According to this proposition if one subtracts from a quantity at least half of it and from the remainder at least its half and keep doing so FOR EVER, eventually there will remain something smaller than any pre-assigned quantity. Therefore, the idea of infinite regression was known to the Greeks and hence to both Newton and Leibniz to start with (it is true however that the Greeks did not have the instinct to develop it further.) This,together with Cavalieri's Geometria indivisibilibus (Italian mathematician of the 17th century) made the almost simultaneous discovery of calculus possible. Secondly, the philosophical differences between Leibniz and Newton are wonderfully reminiscent of the philosophical dichotomy that was developed in 4th century Athens through the defeat of democracy and the subsequent dominance of the undemocratic Platonic school of though (see Popper’s Open Society or the later work of Castoriades.) Newton with his belief in static matter and in an interventionist god that provides an exogenous rule to society strongly reminds of Plato. Leibniz on the other hand, with his theory of dynamics, his thesis of calculating out our differences and his belief in an non-interventionist god strongly reminds of the stoics and the philosophical movement that accompanied the birth and growth of democracy in Athens. Finally, the discussion totally missed the strangest fact in the history of Calculus: In 1906 a manuscript of Archimedes was found in which the mathematician discuses the validity of a method which seems to give correct results. He would cut an area or volume into infinitely many lines of parts, which (imaginary) he would place at one end of a lever as to balance the whole area or volume at the other end. This is how Leibniz started. However, neither Leibniz nor Newton knew of Archimedes' contribution. Why? His manuscript was washed away and then used by the Christian monks as raw materials for writing bibles. The original was written almost two thousand years before Newton. The big question for me is why having thought of so much, Archimedes never found the courage to go further?

Tom Milner-Gulland - Newton-and-Leibniz, time-and-
To my mind, the most impressive insight in Leibniz’ philosophy is in his argument that to speak of the difference between any two different spaces -- that is, worlds -- is to speak of a difference in the conditioning of their sensibilities. This is a superb insight, one the philosophical likes of which one doesn't find in the works of Newton. God creates beings to live in different universes (worlds), not by creating immense new volumes of space, but by manipulating the arrangement of their senses. But it begs the question of how *difference* is defined on an absolute scale, and one must surely be led to the conclusion that all differences are defined with reference only to time. Space is merely a vessel for temporal experience. So time is the conduit to the absolute, and space is our instrument for making sense of the that conduit.Just as space and time are incommensurable, so are curves and straight lines (gradients and tangents); so are number and infinity; so are experience and calculation. A metaphysics of incommensurability will embody all such distinctions as one. Incommensurability is the magic in the system that we call analysis. Further, insofar as *anything* is --- or is modelled to be -- *determinately* definable, so, in intellection, its ontology can be signified by an x-axis against which there must ipso facto be a y-axis. Just as God is not determinately definable, so one cannot plot the very being of God against time or anything else.

Anon Calculus
“Truth is ever to be found in simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things.” ~ Newton “Politics is for the present, but an equation is for eternity.” ~ Albert EinsteinUntil such Time, that we have a simple equation (foundation) for Calculus; we will neither be able to fathom, comprehend or understand the profundity of Newton’s legacy. Enjoyed the program

Leibniz vs Newton -who first calculated the calcul
For some reason one of the guest this week said Euler was Russian. He was in fact Swiss.

PaulPic when first you practice to deceive...
I wonder if the Calculus slight of hand when dealing with infinitesimals has anything to do with the current problems in reconciling relativity and quantum mechanics at very small scales. It just seems caustic to say the smallest things are nothing.

Alan Rubin. Thoms Aquinas
We have had Averroes, Avicenna, and Thomas Aquinas. Surely it is about time that In Our Time did a programme on Maimonides.

Michael Costello, site management
Can anyone make sense of the terrible user interface on the IOT site? What is this fixation with streaming? If it is not available as an mp3, it is of no use to me. Can I be alone in this? Compounding the problem is the frequent corruption of the site. The Aquinas episode was never available as a downloadable mp3. It appeared to be, but it was corrupt, and was never fixed. So now it is only avalable as a stream, and thus unusable. Please give some thought to your management of this great resource. Thanks!

Jim - Newton-Leibniz
Yet another splendid programme on a fascinating subject, although a couple of points did strike me. I was surprised that no mention was made of the fact that Newton was President of the Royal Society at the relevant time and was able to 'fix' the report. The discussion seemed to me to confirm the conclusion taught to me some fifty odd years ago that Newton was first but secretive with a convoluted and obscure notation while Leibnitz was second but with an understandable notation that we still use today. As I contemplate the programme I am beginning to understand the arguments that support these conclusions despite the passage of time and not really being a mathematician. Certainly one to download and listen to again

Aaron Sloman (University of Birmingham, UK) Calcul
I think this must be one of the truly great radio discussions of all time. The subject is very deep, underlying a huge amount of science and engineering of the last three centuries, the subject matter should be part of everyone's education, the presenters and Melvyn made everything brilliantly clear using just words, with no spurious pictures or background noises, there are important philosophical (and even theological and political) issues involved, there's the drama of a personal battle of giants -- and all in less than 45 minutes.The replay should be advertised on all BBC web sites. It is one of the few things on the BBC that (almost) justify the use of that dreadful,patronising, word "unmissable".Aaron

Newton & Calculus
Hard to believe "experts" when they get a basic fact wrong. Euler was Swiss and worked in Russia he was never Russian. He was without doubt the most productive of all mathematicians all his papers have yet to be published 226 years after his death. Yes he is on of my heroes

Thomas T
During the recent show about Calculus, one of the speakers claimed - possibly as a joke, that both Newton and Liebnitz had biscuits named after them. This is only true in the case of Liebniz-keks. The Newton in Fig Newton's refers to the city of Newton, Massachusetts. Just thought I'd clear this up; biscuits are important.

Per-Arne Öberg, Thomas Aquinas
The description of the revelation that Thomas had late in his life and his subsequent silence remind me of how revelation is described in oriental philosophies like Zen Bhuddism and Taoism. In Zen it is called satori and is said to be beyond the reach of words. It can only be experienced. There is a saying ’those who speak don’t know, and those who know don’t speak’.I am also reminded by the immensely moving ending to George Herbert’s poem The Collar from the early 17th century:”But as I rav’d and grew more fierce and wildAt every word,Me thoughts I heard one calling, Child!And I reply’d, My Lord.”Finally, may I suggest Montaigne as a topic for IoT.

Pharmd592
Very nice site!

Graham Snyder - Khidr, the Sufi Green Saint
Hello! I've been a fan for four years, and of all the fascinating subjects discussed, my favourite has been the Fisher King, from Arthurian mythology. It would be fascinating to hear more about a similarly mysterious medieval Islamic figure, Khidr. A supposedly green Immortal saint or prophet, mentioned in the Qur'an as a companion of Moses, some scholars also speculate that he is the basis for the Green Knight, from the Arthurian tale "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight." Many sufi figures from around the 12th century report having met Khidr and gained mystical knowledge from him.

Brian Kelly
Excellent - very lucid, especially Annabel Brett's account of Thomas's thought and comparison/contrast with Plato and Augustine. Maybe something on Thomas' dispute with the Latin Averroists of Paris would have been helpful (on eternity of the world, perfection thru contemplation, and 'two truths' - why Aristotle couldn't be reconciled with Quran or Bible. In all, a very helpful programme.

John - In Our Time Archive
Please can you make the entire IOT archive available to download as podcasts - either via this site or via iTunes (or equivalent). This is such an important and fascinating series and I am sure many of us want to listen to episodes repeatedly. At the moment you only appear to be able to hear the archive (all of it?) via the website itself with podcast versions of episodes expiring after a week. Please let us know if there are any plans to put make the entire archive available as a podcast.

Lars Arvidsson, Aquinas
I detected no rustiness in you this Thursday (or Friday, since I listen to the podcast the day after). It was just brilliant. In our time is my favourite on the BBC. I teach chemistry and biology but I am also very interested in history. I am especially interested when your topic is scientific, though.I have also listened through The adventure of English as an audiobook at least twice. I was especially caught by the insights it gave me about the links there are between English and the Scandinavian languages, Swedish being my mother tongue. I got a reminder last summer when I was in Yorkshire and saw all those place names ending with -thorpe and -by. As you point out, the Yorkshire dialect has a lot more Scandinavian loans than there are in standard English. Why are they called loanwords, by the way? I am sure you have no intention to return them to us just like we will not return the loads of recent English loans we have. Swedish is also full of older latin, german and french "loans".Lars Arvidsson, Östersund, Sweden

Dr Michael Dunne Aquinas
Pity there was no mention of Aquinas's teacher, Petrus de Ybernia, who taught logic and natural philosophy at the University of Naples. Peter may well have been the first to have introduced Aquinas to the study of Aristotle and Averroesin the years 1239-44 and before Aquinas joined the Dominicans and went to study under Albert the Great.

Ben Jones - Thomas Aquinas
Dear MelvynThanks, I agreed with your early challenge and was glad of it. The hyperbolic myths of great men, although undoubtedly in many legitimate or apocryphal historical records makes their remoteness often beyond exposure, excepting the application of common sense. Perhaps these myths appeal to some ancient but pernicious need to deify those we identify for the significance of their contributions. I can hear my father, attributing the thought of this or that man to his ability to read photographically or to some other supernatural quality of mind. Is it a magical protective, to make these men some whole worthy of a worship , otherwise unacceptable, or simply unassailable, or is it a salve to the collective ego. Whatever the reason it confuses the real achievements of these thinkers, prophets and teachers who suffer the good intentions and credulity of fanciful biographers and gullible devotees.Yours Ben

jane - part 2
It is also reasonable why, though words had become, in relative terms, redundant to him, it was appropriate that he left his legacy of writings to serve a certain function. If he was 'graced' by revelation (for it seems to come to us), in an instant he would have experienced, way outside the range of the intellect, the eternal sense and place and interconnection of everything...and its absolute and incredible perfection. Can't thank you enough for this wonderfully enjoyable programme and its effect on me....and it's so lovely to have Melvyn back in our lives.

Niall O'Malley -Thomas Aquinas
Thomas was introduced to Aristotle by a Irishman lecturing in Naples University at the time. Just to enlighten you good Brits as to the extent of Irish scholarship at the time:) But the main point I would like to make is the commentators closing summary on Thomas's experience of God that leads hime to exclaim that -"its all straw". Therefore: The little old woman whom you see attending her prayers and daily religious services has access to greater wisdom than all of the philosophers put together. He/she becomes wise in the life of grace.Thanks for the discussion from the little old man and the little old woman in Dublin.

RAY SALMON RE THOMAS AQUINAS
Regarding Thomas Aquinas and his late religious experienceHaving a religious experience affords the person who has had the experience things which reasoning cannot afford. If you have an experience of a Divine Reality you know that a Divine Reality exists and you have an inkling as to the nature of that DivineReality. Reasoning, whether philosophical or scientific, cannot give rise to this knowledge. It cannot prove the existence of the Divine nor tell us what its nature is. Only an experience of the Divine can do this, which incidentally we cannot manufacture for ourselves. It comes by grace. And it has to be our own experience, since we are not open to persuasion by another person’s experience. This may be because we live in a sceptical society. It is okay to go on philosophising after a religious experience to develop our thinking about different matters. Perhaps Thomas Aquinas felt that, having had an experience of the Divine, he had arrived, and that he did not need to contribute further to the religious thought of his day.

Sallyann New Season
Just wanted to say that Lord Bragg sounded a bit oppressed in his post-programme letter. We'd like him to know that the new season may mean early mornings and much hard work for him but it means a blessed return to civilisation for the rest of us.

Hugh L'Estrange - Excellent programme!
Dear MelvynThank you for the programme. Despite what you say about your nerves, etc, etc, I thought it was one of the best. The contributors - showing more signs of nerves than you from time to time - were excellent and the elucidation of Aquinas's philosophy and theology as well as setting the context for him and his age was very clear and illuminating.Shame your Newsletter concentrates so much on negatives and doesn't add some nice reflections from the conversations you had afterwards over coffee and croissants as you usually do. And your walk through the park ... I enjoy those bits.Warmest wishesHugh L'Estrange (ex-Dominican novice and student - many years ago)

John - Thomas Aquinas
Brilliant episode. It seems it would be a good time to do a 4 parter, properly done, on the one prolific individual, that all theologians like Thomas Aquinas are compared to. This would be St. Augustan himself. Time to go there with Augustan and delve into his profound and amazing life. I think it would be a very good program!Thank you I.O.T. - Glad you are Back MelvynVery BestJohn.

Dave - Program return
As I live in Australia I cannot access BBC radio live. Fortunately, I can access by podcast [and the listen again option] so it's with joy I find that IoT is back - great some interesting radio for a change...Regards

THEMISTOCLES - Aquinas
I felt extremely disappointed that the new season started with theology. All the points of note mentioned were from the Greeks. All the 'proofs' of God presented by Aquinas were Plato's. This is very clear. If you take Plato away, Aquinas has nothing to say. And since when the 'non mover' does not need to be created? All Aquinas said were said better by both the theoretical philosophers of Islam (they were not mere scholastics, they added value to the Greek philosophy, something that Aquinas failed to do). Compare for example Aquinas with the Proclos (4th century ac Athens): Proclos mentions that all beings need a creator therefore God has to be a non-being. This idea is totally incomprehensive for both Aquinas and today's theology. All theology is eventually based on apocalysis and hence cannot be logos. So the term itself is meaningless.

Ian Henderson: quest for Melvyn
There was no mention of the ducks?

Milda, from Brasilia/Brazil
Just to say welcome back, Melvyn!Regards.

Tony Acquinas programme
Today's programme was brilliant. For the first time I developed a real sense of the relationship between Platonism and Aristotelianism and the radical porentialities that came within the latter tradition. The contributors were wonderfully clear.

Tony Acquinas programme
Today's programme was brilliant. For the first time I developed a real sense of the relationship between Platonism and Aristotelianism and the radical porentialities that came within the latter tradition. The contributors were wonderfully clear.

David Nicoll - welcome back etc
Welcome Back Melvyn - a much missed essential feature of my week!

Robert - Thomas Aquinas
Very interesting discussion. I was surprised that none of the discussants suggested stroke as an explanation for the sudden change of behaviour after 6th December 1273. When I googled and got "thought of St. Thomas Aquinas by Brian Davies, 1993" I found "exactly what had happened is uncertain, though the explanation normally given nowadays is that Aquinal suffered a stroke or a physical or emotional breakdown caused by overwork".

Jonas-Thomas Aquinas
Aquinas’ movement towards Aristotlewas to counteract the effect of Augustine’semphasis on Plato in Christian tradition, due to his teacher,Albertus Magmas ,wanting to have a more natural foundation for Christian theology. There was a need for a secular foundation for the understanding of the world not found in Platonism.In the platonic scheme the world is abstract.In the aristotelian schemewe can refer to the world itself to explain what goes on. Aquinas was a professional academic philosopher and lived his life within communities of friars.Both the volume(8 million words) and the rigour of his work(using strict logical rules) testifyto the body of knowledge he helped create amongst medieval philosopherswherein the works of Aristotle helped create the university syllabus. Aristotle founded many of the disciplines that grew into branches of philosophy and science.Medieval philosopher’s adherence to the Bible and Christian faith did not excludetheir curiosity,as God’s creatures, with human beings and the world. They thought God had said things to us not only through the Bible but through the story of Creation.Russell accused Aquinas of not being a realphilosopher because he was looking for reasons for what he already believed. Aquinas makes a distinction between his beliefsas a theologian and his beliefs as a philosopher. In one he defends the revelation of the scriptures, in the other, through the use of unaided reason, he discovers the world and its necessary truths.For instance he says,philosophically, there is no reason why the universe should not have always existed and go on existing for ever, but that as a Christian he does not believe this: he believes that God created the universe out ofnothing and will one day bring it to an end.You cannot prove it either way. When he can’t prove through reason he falls back on revelation. He adapted Aristotle to Christian dogma as he knew Aristotle thoroughly,so much more than earlier Catholic philosophers. The Summa Contra Gentiles is directed to people who are non-Christians,maybe Muslims,Jews or atheists.It aims to present them with reasons forbelieving that there is a God as part of its Christian duty. Aquinas’ Five Ways is a cosmological proof starting from features of the external world thus avoiding Anselm’s ontological argument.By observing the world,the ideas of movement and animation,we get to the idea of the Unmoved Mover,God and the First Cause.Aquinasis famous for the idea of the ‘just war’and when it is morally right to wage war.There are constraints on what you choose as targets and there are some values more important than life itself,important enough to defend.He also covered the idea of reconciling divine foreknowledge and freewill and the idea of popular sovereignty.However Plato was elevated over Aristotle with the advance of modern scientific enterprise.

St Thomas Aquinas
Superb edition. Beautifully lucid discussion. Many thanks.SUGGESTION FOR FUTURE PROGRAMME: Personal Knowledge - Michael Polyani. Ways of knowing and the nature of 'truth': Motivated belief (John Polkinghorne); Inference to the best explanation; Intuition; etc.

John Peters - Derrida
I would like to support Francis Joseph's comment. There could be an excellent programme on Derrida - it could lay out the background in Claude Levi Strauss, Structuralism, Barthes and semiotics, mention Derrida's Jewish-Algerian roots, and then explain post-structuralism, deconstruction, differance. They are the most transformative ideas in modern philosophy, and are disgracefully slandered by those who have never read Derrida's works.It is about time Derrida got his due, and there are so many excellent academics who could explain his ideas without sounding obscure or 'difficult'. Geoffrey Bennington is one.

Sunni and Shia June 25th
Sunni seemed to have got short shrift..why is there great divisions..it did not seem to come out of this programme which concentrated on Shia'sharvey chichester

Jane re previous request for role of archetypes '
I wanted to rectify that it's actually sixty years (my careless thinking) since the incredibly bright Joseph Campbell's book was published. In that time we've seen the increasing use and influence of quasi-archetypes line the walls of society's downward spiral and that's partly why I feel that the intellectual integrity and perspicacity of an IOT programme on this subject would be apt and engrossing. I mentioned once before the incredible appeal and power of partial, distorted or quasi versions of 'truths'. The American culture seems to have mastered the art and globalized it. The new series hasn't even started and here I am, like a dog at a bone..... but it's bedrock stuff and after all, as we IOT listeners know, 'knowledge is power'. I was going to use the analogy of the early bird catching the worm but it occurs to me that in the circadian nature of things it's possibly the really, really late bird which catches more worms....smugly! Best wishes

Pharmf75
Very nice site!

Jane - a request
Welcome back! I thought I'd get a request in quickly and so went to the library to obtain Joseph Campbell's 'The Hero with a Thousand Faces' to find some quotes to support me. I'd like a programme on myth and archetypes in our time - including psychology. I think that in the scheme of things this is a hugely important subject and, more importantly, an increasingly manipulated and thus distorted one. From the opening of the book: 'Throughout the inhabited world, in all times and under every circumstance, the myths of man have flourished; and they have been the living inspiration of whatever else may have appeared out of the activities of the human body and mind. It would not be too much to say that myth is the secret opening through which the inexhaustible energies of the cosmos pour into human cultural manifestation.'....'Most remarkable of all, however, are the revelations that have emerged from the mental clinic. The bold and truly epoch making writings of the psychoanalysts are indispensable to the student of mythology; for, whatever may be thought of the detailed and sometimes contradictory interpretations of specific cases and problems, Freud, Jung and their followers have demonstrated irrefutably that the logic, the heroes and the deeds of myth survive into modern times. In the absence of an effective general mythology, each of us has his private, unrecognized, rudimentary, yet secretly potent pantheon of dream. The latest incarnation of Oedipus. the continued romancer of Beauty and the Beast stand this afternoon on the corner of Forty-second Street and Fifth Avenue, waiting for the traffic light to change.' Campbell's final words: 'The modern hero, the modern individual who dares to heed the call and seek the mansion of that presence with whom it is our whole destiny to be atoned, cannot, indeed must not, wait for his community to cast off its slough of pride, fear, rationalized avarice, and sanctified misunderstanding. "Live", Nietzche says, "as though the day were here". It is not society that is to guide and save the creative hero, but precisely the reverse. And so every one of us shares the supreme ordeal - carries the cross of the redeemer - not in the bright moments of his tribe's greatest victories, but in the silence of his personal despair.' What a profound nudge this man was giving society when he published the book fifty years ago. If it is possible, I do think that a programme would certainly be timely. Also.........SO LOOKING FORWARD TO THURSDAY 17th!!! Best wishes.

suliman sehaam khan
heaven for seekers of wisdom. it broaden the horizon of mind and give you taste of the ultimate knowledge. being a lover of philosophy i spend everyday some time listening to the programms.keep it up bbc.

seangrainger@yahoo.co.uk
Hi. Can I do MP3 downloads from archive? Cheers Sean, your biggest fan

Dr John Niser
Dear Melvyn,Thank you for your program which offers so much to so many. Living in the USA it helps me keep a modicum of sanity. I have two questions however: the first is to know if I can share with my students your podcasts ( I am professor in a Public Uni, Purdue). The second question is to know if it is at all possible to capture past programs on iTunes, it seems right now that the only means to listen to past programs is to log on your site and listen while connected to the Internet which is not always possible. Thank you.Dr. JC NiserChair CFS DptIPFWUSA

Paul Cook - New Book - In Our TIme
I went to hear Melvyn Bragg talk last night in Battersea about his new book on IOT. He described the importance of being recording live to the show and that it works better with a longer timeslot. Melvyn also described the stress of having a conversation on a topic he knows little about with three experts, particularly on Physics topics such as the Higgs Boson. A member of the audience asked why there seemed to be an excess of ancient Greece topics, Melvyn apologised and said it was a personal interest of his. However the new series will cover many new topics including Thomas Aquinas. Finally he spoke about some of his other books and his thoughts around autobiographical fiction. He described how upsetting it had been for him to write and then discus his books around his personal life and had cancelled all publicity when his book came out.

Daniel Papworth: Programme Suggestion
Cheltenham's Greenbelt Festival this year featured Denise Inge, Honorary Fellow in Early Modern Research at Worcester Uni. I would love to hear more about her research on Thomas Traherne C17th Priest and Poet.

David Leiser - Thank you
Just wanted to thank you people for putting this wonderful program on the air, and on Podcast. I stroll on evenings in Jerusalem listening to it, and immensely enjoy the competence of the presenter, the thorough preparation it requires, and the range of topics. Thank you!

Future topic for discussion
As a long-time listener to IOT, I enjoy the program very much and lookforward to it every week. I would like to suggest a future topic for discussion - the Moon. In 2007 IOT did a program on Mars, which was nothing less than fantastic and inspired me to research the subject further. I would very much enjoy a similar program on our Moon, its history, cultural significance, scientific background and plans for future human development. This would I think be a wonderful show and I would be over the moon to hear it.Manny ThanksDanny Kendall (Warwickshire)

Lee Patterson
Will you make the archive available via iTunes?ThanksLee

David Wallace: IOT 2009-10
It's not often that IOT devotes itself to American subject matter, but I would very much like to hear a programme on the American poet William Carlos Williams, particularly on his long poem "Paterson." You will not want extensive reasoning from me as to Williams's importance, so I leave my request as that - a request. I would be most grateful if it were granted.

THE EDIACARA BIOTA
This was superb! I love it when IOT tackles big science topics (in addition to loving many of the other topics), and the quality of the contributors is wonderful. It felt a privilege to listen to this group.

Paul Lee - ram file format
A listener requested advice for listening to IOT in ram format. Google RealPlayer and download the free RealPlayer software from www.real.com. Install the software (completely virus free)- when the installation is complete, invoke RealPlayer and open your ram file. Sit back and enjoy IOT. It plays almost all the other audio and video format too.

Anna - Macintosh compatibility
Dear Sir/Madam, Is there any way to make the archives in In Our Time compatible with a Mac operating system? I'd love to listen to them, but don't have a PC. Thanks!

Christopher Maycock. The Sunni-Shia Split
At last I have understood the major schism in Islam, clearly presented and with an excellent wider context. Many thanks indeed.I was however surprised to hear how violent was the inception of the Islamic Faith, especially when its adherents speak of it now with pride as a 'religion of peace'.

Peter, Bedford - 'Bragg, in general'
I just want to say 'thank God' for this programme. Its about the only one on the entire BBC which somehow uplifts and elevates one above the daily grind of trivia which emanates from our media. I often sit in my car in the morning in the car park of the hospital where I work as a doctor listening until its reached its end, despite the fact that I have patients waiting to see me. Somehow, I feel its worth it because I then go in to work feeling uplifted by the ideas which the programme encourages us to think about, and then I am a better person to do my job. Thank you for such wonderful mind food.

William - Philosophy resource
The Philosophy resource looks excellent. But I really wish you would release the 'why vote for this philosopher' audio files in MP3 format! The format you are using currently makes it almost inaccessible.

In Our Time Production Team
Thank you for all your comments. It is great to get so much valuable feedback on our programmes. Unfortunately, this page will not be updated over our Summer break. We will continue to post your comments on our return on 17th September.Many thanksThe "In Our Time" Production Team

Francis Joseph
I've just listened again to the 'Logical Positivism' programme and I'm breathless with admiration for the sheer quality of the entire 'In Our Time' series. It must be the finest outlet for serious intellectual discussion in all of Britain. And yet, as I scanned the list of topics that have been broadcast under the 'Philosophy' heading, there was a massive, titanic gap: there have been no programmes on philosophy/critical theory of the past 60 years. The most appalling gap is the lack of a programme on Jacques Derrida and His Legacy, but why hasn't Melvyn done anything on topics such as Michel Foucault, Mikhail Bakhtin, Walter Benjamin, Roland Barthes? A programme on Edward Said and Post-Colonial Studies? Julia Kristeva? Yes, we do enjoy the shows on older topics, but if contemporary philosophy is ignored then the programmes on Soctates etc. are reduced to mere museum pieces. So many people have told me that they feel this way about 'In Our Time' that I have been moved to write this. Please, Melvyn and company, don't feel offended, we just want to make a really good series even better. I mean no disrespect to Sartre or Camus, but these thinkers were on the cutting edge 60 years ago. Finally, if you are reading this and you agree with me then please don't be passive -- add a comment backing up what I've said.

John Crawford In our time
Why are yopu making it so difficult to find In out time on IPlayer

Paul - E Biota
Can I echo the comments elsewhere that we lack a podcast download for this - I would very much like one to add to my IOT library.

Richard Corfield
Hi Seth, The hands of the 4.5 billion year clock are set at 3 because it is a convenient place to put the hands where they will not obscure the text which I update periodically when we do a new Earth history IOT. Another way of looking at it is that we don't know much about the major innovations that happened during the Age of Bacteria! While I'm on - please all note that the 24 hr clock is just that - 24 hrs duration on the face - so it is more like a military watch face than a conventional clock face.

Brian Smith
Ondce again I thoroughly enjoyed the series. In our Time is a brilliant idea, brilliantly executed. I just worry that some BBC apparatchik is making plans to abolish it!

Martyn Wilson, Ediacara Biota
Why is there no podcast of this issue? I've listened to it, but would like to retain it for future listening as well. Great programme by the way

The Bishop of Hippo St Augistine
Mr Bragg mentioned in his final summing up of the last program of the current series two weeks ago that The topc for "Next week" would be a program on the life of theBishop of Hippo - Instrad we got a prog about medical ethics. Has the series ended prematurely.

How can I listen to the archive?
Please help! I try to listen to the archive but am not able to. I also can't save the .ram files to media player or itunes. Could someone tell me how I can listen to the archive? Regards, computer illiterate person :( x

Parameswaran
Yet another brilliant podcast thanks to Ediacara Biota, Melwyn and his expert panel. Am I allowed to say this? - Listening to Richard Corfield with his innovative way of explaining for the listeners made me go back to Uni again; I wish!

Dan
Oops, I didn't realize this comment box did not recognize line breaks. My previous comment suggests (a) the Neolithic Revolution, and (b) "the Gift" as two separate topics for a future show.

Dan - Topics
These would make for amazing shows:The Neolithic RevolutionThe Gift - i.e. the debates about its meaning and function, pre-capitalist economies, Marcel Mauss, etc.(Yes, I am an anthropologist)

Gary - IOT Archive
This is a request: it's great to have the IOT archive but it is a shame that the "Subject Research" (further reading) lists are not also archived. Any chance of the being done? The web page has already been created so there's only a link to maintain?

Seth Messinger Ediacara Biota
Mr. Jones - I'm not sure how many Americans listen in, but I certainly do, and I agree that in light of the program (see - Yankee spelling) on Ediacara Biota that a discussion of intelligent design would be interesting.

John Atkin Ediacara Biota
For me one of the most enlightening "In our time" so far - Ediacara are described in my daughter's textbook but we now really appreciate their importance - thanks.

David P General
Re: J.C.Warner generalWhen will we have the announced Dreyfus Affair ? I came to the podcast / website looking for the Dreyfus programme. Thanks, Phil, for the reply. Probably not a conspiracy - just a break for the series.

seth / biota
why is the 4.5 billion yr clock set at three?

Alan Jones Ediacara Biota
As ever an excellent programme. I knew very little about the subject and can now say I know something. It might be worth looking at Intelligent Design in one of your future broadcasts. Having read the newsletter it might be a stimulating discussion. Although I'm not sure how many Americans listen to IOT. I look forward to the new series.

Tom Milner-Gulland - Ediacara Biota
The fact that bacteria are phenomenally adaptable, such as to become – for example - extremophiles, surely shows that Darwinian theory is in some sense incomplete. What is the driving force behind their evolution if there is no eradication of prototypes and unadaptables? The hypothesised evolutionary mechanism/'survival strategy' of ‘Here’s an entire ocean, go and do what you like, because there is no competition’ is not remotely Darwinian.

Keith Budden-Cambrian predators.
I think part of the reason that evolution argument gets lost is the language. "They decided to burrow down to avoid predators" instead of-those that were adapted to burrow had an evolutionary advantage in avoiding predators. Like wise "those that decided to form a 3rd skin" instead of- When a mutation occurred of a 3rd skin this allowed further mutations involving internal organs to be viable and improve chances of survival. I appreciate that the programme needs to be at a level that can be understood by me, an Engineer with little knowledge of biology,but Intelligent Design(The created by a mad scientist theory)will negate science, given half a chance, and appears to be putting the USA way behind the rest of the world, making them a backward nation in science.

Fiona Campbell - ediocara biota et al
Just wanted to agree with everyone who said this was a great programme to go out on and so glad to see from Phil Tinline's note that IOT will be back. It's about the only programme with any intellectual meat on radio. I wish there were more like this so that poor Melvyn Bragg and your researchers wouldn't have to mug up on the whole intellectual, literary and scientific history of the world. I thought Melvyn Bragg's newsletter was particularly good this week, as it gave us more genuine information about the content of the programme and - pace Lord Bragg - less centrality to the ducks (important thought they are...)

Robin Allott Logical positivism
Logical positivism in effect called for the elimination of traditional philosophy. Analytic propositions (of mathematics and logic) survived but could not refer directly to the world. Empirical statements could be meaningful, if verifiable, but otherwise were, on the neo-positivist view, nonsensical, including all metaphysics. The logical positivist proposition - 'All propositions which are not analytic or empirically verifiable are meaningless' - was itself an unverifiable generalisation and should also have been treated by the Vienna group as meaningless nonsense! There is no empirical method for demonstrating the truth of non-analytic generalisations; they are not verifiable but they are falsifiable – by any simple proposition where we understand the meaning but are not able to specify how, empirically, the truth or falsity of the statement can be established. The meaning of a sentence must be prior to the question of its truth.Despite its self-refutation, logical positivism was not all bad. It was part of a trend away from speculation to a recognition of the central importance of language. As Wittgenstein put it, in his early philosophy (much more satisfactory than his later views) a perfect language is like a map; it pictures the structure of reality, mirrors the world as a map mirrors it. In this way language facilitates our useful interaction with the world. The really important further step is to make progress in understanding how, in evolution, humans became able (no doubt via a neural link between gesture and speech) to invent words and how, in development, children became able to acquire the words of their mother language so effortlessly. Research suggests that there must be a linked explanation for these two remarkable processes.

Dylan Sebastian Evans: CONTEMPORARY PHILOSOPHY
I know that the average age of the typical Radio 4 listener is fifty-three or thereabouts, but it would be great if there were more programmes that - not targeted - but were more relevant to a younger audience. What ever happened to the great thinkers of the latter half of the Twentieth Century: Foucault, Derrida, Cixious, the Frankfurt School, the Russian formalists, post-colonial and feminist theorists? It is these ideas, above and beyond any others, that are discussed in the seminar rooms - and influence the reflections - of my generation. Socrates and Plato, of course; but Said and Mohanty, too!

Ken Weiss: Bravo!
Thanks for another wonderful year. As I often tell my friends, one can get a university education free and without exams, from listening to IOT!Every week I'm led to scurry to the library or to Wikipedia to get followup reading. IOT is just a marvelous program!

Kevin House- suggestion
Any chance of an IOT on the Paris Commune of 1871?

Verina Glaessner: The Ediacara Biota
What an excellently judged programme: well chosen guests enabled revealing connections to be made between palaeontology, Biology, stratigraphy and Darwin, ipse. A huge area of scientific development deftly negotiated, and at the bottom of it all the 'simple' ones, thumbprint shaped, sans, it seems, just about everything, yet ingesting an algae blanket in a very different world - for such a long time...until disaster struck!Odd pronunciation shift though. It used to be ediacara emphasis on 3rd syllable. Now on 4th and dignified with the term biota. Also unexplained. Surely not political correctness. Many thanks.

tina negus on the ediacaran biota
As the "schoolgirl" referred to obliquely by Martin Brasier, in your programme, I would like to congratulate Melvyn Bragg and guests on an excellent programme, and to praise the BBC for continuing to give us unusual programmes of minority interest, in this otherwise tabloid age. The direction of the discussion by Melvyn Bragg was well done, and the information given of high standard and as far as is possible, described in a way accessible to most people with some scientific knowledge. I thought that more emphasis could have been placed on the earlier non-discovery of Precambrian fossils, by the simple fact that nobody had looked in the right place. The quarry-men in Charnwood Forest had also noted what they thought were organic forms, indeed called the site in question the "Ring Quarry" from the appearance of the disc-like holdfasts of Charnia on the bedding planes. but they were not educated men - what did they know? Just as when I reported my find of Charnia in 1956, I was told that there are no fossils in Precambrian rocks, and when I insisted that it WAS a fossil, then the rocks you found it in were NOT Precambrian - a truly circular argument! the other point which could have been made clearer, was that although Darwin was troubled by the apparent lack of Precambrian life-forms, he had no time-line available to him, no concept of 635 million years, which came much more recently.

s.g.k. homework
During the summer recess I am going to try and organise my knowledge and form a conscious sense and art in being human. Central to it is "intelligence" -perceived as a self-enabling and life-affirming grace,(evident always in the growth of an infant).It is really great to hear so many informed speakers throughout the year. Appreciation has as yet no measure, but coupled with intelligence it can be felt as life-givng.

John Ford:- General
Part of the discussion this week revolved around samples which had been brought into the studio. For the next series would it be possible to have a webcam availiable to assist the topic in question? Just a thought ;-)

Katrina Frape on In Our Time
The first "In Our Time" that I listened to was "The Cambrian Explosion" which got me totally hooked on the programme. I've listened to every one since. I enjoy them immensely, even the rarefied ones I can hardly understand a word of, like the one about Kierkegaard. I've been known to listen to the same programme five times. Please keep going!

J. French
PLEASE can we have transcripts again for this programme? It's well worth having a written version when it's been an especially interesting topic, such as this last one. Having printed transcripts in the past, I didn't even listen properly to it and then, when I came to find a transcript, found that they're no longer available (although they are for a FEW other programmes).

J.C.Warner general
When will we have the announced Dreyfus Affair ?

Mark O'Hare Logical Positivism
One of the philosophers who was cited as an influence on Logical Positivism was David Hume. Given that Hume is arguably the greatest philospher who ever lived and Melvyn Bragg's consternation at Marx being given this honour by a poll of his listeners, why does he not dedicate one or two programs to Hume?

The Pre-Cambrian
In poetic appreciation of Monday's prog:IN OUR TIMEWe're in the pre-Cambrian,interrogating a suspect rock,using the most advanced techniques(including a small hammer)until it tells us what we think it knows.

Phil Tinline (Producer, In Our Time) - Dreyfus Aff
Melvyn and his guests will be discussing the Dreyfus Affair on 8 October. All the best, Phil

Anthony Maynard, The Ediacara Biota
Nice programme, though I could have done with just the tiniest mention of where in the calendar the evolution of plants fitted, to complete the picture.I wonder if anyone these days knows of 'LARVAL FORMS and other zoological verses' by Walter Garstang, Professor of Zoology at Leeds from 1908, with an introduction by Alister Hardy, published by Blackwell in 1954. Two tasters:-1. From THE INVAGINATE GASTRULA AND THE PLANULA:-A giddy little Gastrula, gyrating round and round,Was thought to show the way we got our enteron profound:A little whirlpool in its wake maintained a tasty store,A pocket sank to lodge it all, and left a blastopore.As a larval epigram this description earns a prize,But as sketching adult ancestry can only win surprise,And when you note all early orders fixed upon the rocks,You feel a slight embarrassment, the first of many shocks...2. From THE ORIGIN OF CNIDOBLASTS AND CNIDOZOA:-'Tis odd that Enterozoa should with Coelenterates begin,With differentiated cells and a diplothelial skin,For the Gastrula is clearly by a Blastula preceded, And pelagic monothelial sires for this are sorely needed!'Tis also true that Haeckel, when he looked around for one,Could only "Magosphaera" find, which none else had done!He then appealed to Volvox, which the serious dearth reveals,Since both are quite incapable of taking solid meals!&c.

John Carlisle : Ediacara Biota
This was THE most brilliantly explained and entertaining programme you have done. The three experts were masters of narrative as well as their fields, and complemented each other so well, i.e. did nt compete. You have got to get them back

Alan Quinn Ediacara Biota
I have 2 comments to make.I object to the use of the metric system in your programmes (it is clearly now BBC policy generally to eliminate this aspect of our heritage). Your audience at this time of the day is likely to be mostly retired. Indeed people over 40 are fully comfortable with the Imperial System.There was a moment of delight early on when one of your contributors spoke of a specimen being 2 inches across, but, thereafter, it was metric.Your producer may claim that these are the units of science but you are talking to the general public not at a scientific conference. Even if the listener can 'translate' the measurements, it causes a brief loss of attention and, thus, often the next key word or so are missed. ("Two inches" is immediately conceptualised).At least set the 2 systems side-by-side - if you must.A second point is about the content of the programme. I usually enjoy the programmes (although today's topic was an odd choice - this life form formed no part of the evolution tree)but today's, which Melvyn Bragg found so enjoyable, was, frankly, a ramble. It might have answered his his questions but, as a listener with no chance of preparation, it was structureless and far from instructive. I have a degree in chemistry and would expect to be able to follow a 'populist'(?)broadcast on a scientific topic, so that I have a reasonable grasp of the essentil points by the end. I did not!

Dreyfus
Will the Dreyfus programme - scheduled in RT for today - be broadcast in the future? Thanks - Bernice Wilson

Alan Quinn Ediacara Biota
Testing!! Sumissions not working this morning. Very annoying.

Ediacara Biota
Great programme thanks. My mother popped in just as IOT finished and as she has a (somewhat archaic) biology degree I mentioned how interesting it had been. "So what have they learned?" she asked. "Well...........not enough" my reply unexpectedly formed itself. I suppose I could have said that biologically speaking we are either usurped or eaten on this planet! The problem is that knowledge - and discovery - come with an exponential deficit ie. "the more I know the more I realize I don't know". I was somewhat gutted to hear that it's weeks until the next programme.....and my kitchen just won't be as clean. During this morning's programme, with a certain parity, even poetry, I finally tackled the new life forms in the recesses of my fridge - don't want those evolving, do I. Ah well, 'til September then. Enormous thanks to Melvyn and the In Our Time team for so many wonderful programmes over the last year and for the superlative series on Darwin. Also thanks to all the other listeners who send their synergistic responses. Warmest wishes and I hope you each have a thoroughly lovely summer. Jane

Richard Walder
Ediocara BiotaI really enjoyed this week's programme. In particular oxygen's effect on life in the early oceans and atmosphere.I chanced upon a wonderful book by Nick Lane simply titled 'Oxygen' "The molecule that made the World". His wide ranging book charts the rise of oxygen from a toxic Venusian atmosphere to the steady levels we have today. He also shows how increased levels produced giant insects and how this molecule affects human aging.I am sure this seemingly arcane subject would interest an audience of both arts and science fans.Many thanks for a wonderful series

Alan Rowden Why no Dreyfus?
Guardian and Times papers radio section mentioned that the final programme would be on Dreyfus.Hope this is not a conspiracy by the powers that be!!!!!Hope you come back soon to give radio a good thinking programme

Michael Kennedy, Logical Positivism
The logical positivism programmeI agree with others that this was an admirably clear and informative programme. It was, however, somewhat one-sided in that its three discussants were clearly in favour of logical positivism; and it paid no attention to its critics, such as Passmore and Popper (here I agree very much with J.J.Prescott). Nobody asked exactly what it means to say that scientific knowledge is ''based'' on evidence as distinct from our acceptance of theories being helped by confirmation, and by attempts at falsification. Nobody mentioned Popper's point that verification of a universal law is impossible. Nobody mentioned induction. Some time ago we had three anti-Popperians discussing Popper, and now we have three pro-positivists discussing logical positivism. Radio 4 should try to find a mix of advocates and dissenters for programmes like this - although I realise this is difficult.Michael Kennedy

Jane
As I climbed back into bed at twenty past four this morning after clearing out the inadequate drain and mopping up the flooded bathroom (caused by torrential rain), something 'hit' me very strongly. The quickest way to describe it is with this quotation which I recently rescued from the accumulated layers on the kitchen pin board thing: "Man closed the gates of Heaven against himself and tried, with immense energy and ingenuity, to confine himself to the Earth. He is now discovering... that a refusal to reach for Heaven means an involuntary descent into Hell". E.F. Schumacher 1977. (I have never read his books, but I intend to following a quick glance at his writings.) I would advise anybody who was seriously interested in this week's programme on logical positivism to look up 'A Guide for the Perplexed' E.F. Schumacher and also 'Induction/inductive reasoning' - both on wikipedia. What 'hit' me so hard in those hours where primal nature and 'soul' nature seem to coincide was the fact that for all my words and my esoteric experiences I realized the extent to which an allegiance to reductionism, empiricism etc. is alive and kicking in me and drastically inhibiting my own inner kingdom. In his newsletter, Melvyn, justifiably, eulogized eloquently about one side of the coin of science....but there is a dark and insidiously powerful and influential side too. I wasn't particularly looking forward to this programme on logical positivism but its influence has actually brought me a real epiphany....a moment of incredible clarity. What can I say but "Thanks" once more. Best wishes as always - Jane. ps 'In Our Time' draws so much together that it constantly reveals the interconnectedness of things. Several of this weeks' responses relate to the role of time in this whole process and many of the previous programmes would be relevant 'this way and that'. The programme is, without doubt, more than the sum of its parts.

Lesley Chamberlain on Logical Positivism
Fascinating programme which brought out for me how strong the parallel was between what the Logical Positivists thought, that metaphysics was rubbish and should be banished from the future scientifically based society (as someone said, they felt they were starting again after WW1) and what actually happened in Russia after the Revolution, another opportunity for a new start, where Lenin banished the last of the religious/metaphysical Russian thinkers abroad, on the grounds that their views were incompatible with the scientifically envisaged future of Russia. I told this story and made passing reference to the parallel with Logical Positivism in my 2006 book The Philosophy Steamer Lenin and the Exle of the Intelligentsia. What the parallel shows is how Russia so often enacts as real, usually politically driven practice what Western minds only toy with in theory. One can go right back to the early nineteenth century with their far too literal borrowing of German Idealism as a prescription for the Russian cultural future and see something similar happening. Someone mentioned that the Logical Positivists were opposed to dialectical materialism as another form of nonsense (and quite rightly so since it was disguised metaphysics) while at the same time the LPs were socialists from Red Vienna. This shows how much we still have to understand about the very complex relations between socialism and philosophy, and their manifestations in different countries circa 1920, not least the vast difference between what was made out of a marriage of the two in Russia, as opposed to say in Austria and Germany.Excellent programme, for which many thanks.

Eddie Clarke :Logical Positivism
This was, as usual an excellent, interesting programme but I was mildly surprised that none of the panel mentioned Phenomenology as the major challenge to this curious branch of philosophy. You could say Phenomenologists continued doing philosophy while the logical positivists developed into mere commentators on other people's work ("Philosophy of ..."). I also thought it a bit far-fetched that the idea that "evidence-based policy making" was a descendant of logical positivism, rather than just of good social science (which is much more influenced by phenomenology, largely for the good, than it cares to admit). I am afraid I was taught philosophy when "continental philosophy" was sneeringly dismissed, and had to discover it myself, so I was a bit miffed that the programme had ignored it. I did though have a smile at the comment that the group had been set up to combat the confusion and disagreement to be had in then current philosophy - then the three of them fell out with each other.

Jane - my sentence on illogical positivism
Fate could not have been kinder! Some interesting responses to read thanks.

John Gunn - Logical Positivism
Somebody said that logical positivism was a needed clearing of the stables. I read language, Truth and Logic at University and found that it was just that. In fact I read a paper to a literary society entitled 'The Semantic Mill' and somehow managed to refer to Carnap. Anyway your programme reminded me of all that and I'm grateful. The point is that for all the obscurities the arguments involved - for a Christian the basic finding seems to be that metaphysical statements have no meaning until they are verifiable. Jesus healed people. Whoever he was , and I do not believe he was God, but the Christ - the ideal 'image and likeness' of God - his works proved that his teachings were correct. He was, you could say, a Christian scientist. - I could go on. Thank you Melvyn for all your letters too.

Logical Positivism
The fact-fixing by what 'our intelligence says' as happened with the dodgy dossier issued in the run up to the case for the war in Iraq illustrates(using logical positivism)WMD was not based on verifiable fact but based on unexamined fear.Howeverit uses the same framework to make itscase.Form subordinates content.

Logical Positivism
What is understood as empiricism seems to actually be 'empiricism as consensus'. There is so much evidence for the lie created by this 'shades of the prison house' (Wordsworth) limited perception that I'm bored to even argue for it. Logical as the use of empiricism was to tighten up science, the residual 'mindsets' do seem to have become a deeply entrenched hindrance. For decades the Russians have been doing diverse research into mind and metaphysics. The Americans claim to have trained people in remote viewing. (Neither were probably of the purest motivation!) Mainstream science would surely do well to take on these boundaries of brain and body....and that would not only keep all camps happy but make a splendid future programme! Best wishes - Jane ps The caveat is obviously that there could be yet more dangers created for our already troubled world.

Violet----Logical Positivism
All the speakers were very clear in their explanation of the topic and it was again a programme which was a gem.Surely the Theory of Relativity indicates that despite there being manypositives in science, science depends onthe perspective of the individual. The individual is the sum of their physical and psychological past and present and the influences thereof. Collectively we are all human beings, yet individually different. Therefore being able to prove completely that any one person, and the rods and cones in their retina can determine completelythe image another person can see is notpossible. This may sound illogical perhaps, but is surely a positive statement in regard to a theory of Relativity. Philosophy tries to make sense of the how and why we are what we are. To understand any theory one must consider how it came into being.Understanding the reasons why any theorybecomes unfashionable is also an interesting topic.

Logical Positivism | M. A. Cherian
A. J. Ayer's absolute certainty of language, Truth and Logic, at 25 in 1936, becomes at 67 in 1978 “ ...nearly all of it was false”, (for source: ask)

Peter Jones: Logical Positivism
Words, words, words!

Reuben Anderson - Shia-Sunna split
Like C Welsh below, I found myself hoping throughout the program that the current day geographical profile would be discussed. My assumption is that present day Shia-Sunni geographical divisions reflect tribal history, that they're as much ethnic as religious. Why is Iran 90% Shia in contrast to it's neighbours.

Royden Hunt, The Sunni-Shia Split
Hi MelvynYes, I agree, that period of our European history is really important to have some idea of. You mention the relationship between the varieties of Islamic law and ethics. Just as interesting and even more significant for this relationship in Europe is the role of the Justinian Code which gave rise to the so-called Civil Law in Europe with its roots in Christian Canon Law and the Justinian Code of late Roman Law. This was in turn modified by the Germanic and Scandinavian influences but remained intact as a basis for the modern Napoleonic French Code and the German Code of Continental Civil Law.So when the UK became a member of the European Union, our Common Law/Case Law tradition had to be reconciled to considerable extent with Civil Law. The House of Lords have done a really good job in my opinion in seeing this through.So what a good 'In Our Time' programme that would make. Start with the Emperor Justinian and end in the House of Lords! It would clear up a lot of misunderstanding about the differences in Law here and on the Continent and your questions and the resulting discussion could be really great.Best wishes for future programmes. Keep them coming BBC.Dr Royden Hunt

Re. Dave Nicholson on jargon...
Forget 'omega', 'quantum' and all that jargon - cross culture is where the vernacular has now pinnacled. My partner 'phoned from a motorbike venture through the Himalayas last week having witnessed a t-shirt proudly worn by one of his bold companions. On the front was a well known brand name and emblazoned across the back a screen print of two crossed table tennis bats and the words 'PRINCE OF PONG'...follow that! Also - 'logical negativism' is - and I jest not - incredibly powerful if we have the courage and stamina to venture there. 'Illogical positivism' might just come up with the occasional unexpected trump card because logic can limit and thus at a certain point become negative. 'Illogical Negativism'...nah..I'll leave that one for others! Best wishes to all - Jane

Tom Milner-Gulland - Logical Positivism
In the final analysis the argument for General Relativity's being a logical or empirical conduit to the 'logical positivist' framework is entirely opaque. I suspect it was a sycophantic attachment.I always like the analogy, for scientific practice, of using litmus paper as the test of a liquid's being acid. It goes red. But, I'll add, there wasn't any redness to begin with; where did the redness come from? Surely it is an 'acid test' that confirms that the ontology your test relies on is not the ontology you are testing.

James Baring - Logical Positivism
Excellent, enlightening, educational and delightfully inconclusive. Philosophy like other flowerings of civilization proceeds by thesis, antithesis and synthesis. The synthesis becomes a thesis in a new context, the context being altered by the aforementioned exploration which expands our horizons. Once it was thought that it was either raining or not raining. Next we knew that it can be raining here but not there. Then we learned that all rain starts as snow. Then that there are considerations of scale to be considered before the rain could effectively be detected subjectively anywhere, never mind dimensions of space-time... The Logical Positivists were a vital antithesis to their predecessors' theses, but still just part of the process.Some of those who can't be bothered with the process just pick a religion.

J. J. Prescott on Logical Positivism
Although all three of your contributors were clearly highly articulate and extremely well informed I found it disturbing that anyone listening to these ideas that hadn't got a background in philosophy would go away believing that logical positivism was a sound philosophical theory and not the discredited set of ideas that were rendered completely redundant by Karl Popper and his ideas of falsifiability.JP.

Logical Positivism
Interesting discussion on a dead philosophical concept,as so many of them are,but then that is how this programme catches its listeners,turning what appears as if it is going to be a sow's ear in to a silk purse. Well done. Now can we have the same treatment for Humanism and Existentialism,my current philosophical concerns? Thanks in advance.Patrick M.

Logical Positivism
The use of science and logic to cut away dead tissue in the worlds of religion,politics and German philosophy.Hegelianism,Kant’s Critique of Reason,metaphysics,German romanticism,loose.woolly and abstract thinking were all casualties. The Vienna Circle were pro Marx , pro Einstein ,pro Russell&Frege.Mathematics was reduced to logic,all that was untestable fell away.Using physics as a model, they developed a proper use of scientific knowledge.The General Theory of Relativity had been proved in 1919 by the observation of light passing the sun during an eclipse. Metaphysical and religious disputes became vapour trails. Philosophy became the hand-maiden of science.Interactions,experiences in the physical world around us became the only reality, the only support for philosophy.Einstein’s theoriesreplaced Newton’s after 300 years. The Vienna Circle saw that science could be proved by observation & experiment.Logic was the powerful tool to clarify the theories and concepts of science.What scientific concepts mean is determined by the way they are verified. How we know what we know became a leading criterion.What cognitive control do we have over these things?The chief tenet of logicalpositivism is the verifiable concept of meaning. Cognitive meaningfulness comes only if there is a procedure for conclusively determining if something is true or false(aesthetics,theology and ethics fall outside).Propositions need to be intelligible, understandable and have a truth value in the same sense as scientific statements do.So there were 3 categories logical positivists put statements into:i)true,ii) falseand iii) meaningless. The two statements said to have meaning are:1) those which are tautological e.g. propositions of logic and mathematics and,2) those which can be tested by sense experience.In some way the V.C. took over the old empiricist tradition of Hume.Shlick’sapproach of our phenomenal experience led to idealism according to Neurath and Carnap.Fundamental statements must be statements about physical objects not inner experience or sense impressions. Neurath compared science to a boat we must rebuild on the open sea.This is the public enterprise of science.V.C. had a commitment to ‘unified science’i.e. the development of a common language in which all scientific propositions can be expressed.A programme on philosophy should take on all sides ofan argument. Not enough was said about the criticisms and failure of logical positivism.It cleared the ground but what they tried to build on that ground isn’t standing up.Popper thought there was a lot that was unverifiable about science and he preferred to use the principle of falsifiability. Scientific theories could never be proved true.His demarcation line was between science and non-science and he believed there were many meaningful things in non-science. Ayer came to realize you couldn’t verify a lot of statements. The analytical-synthetic principle has been put in question by Quine and the reduction of statements to immediate experience. Putnam expressed an awareness of the difficulty of evading the theory-laden ness of observation statements.This is why L.P.died away in the 70s.However the programmewas a useful run through of the history and context of the movement.

Logical Positivism
Melvyn need not have worried - this was a superb programme. I think that the words 'the living dead' aptly coined the place of this movement in the present scheme of things. It occurred to me that philosophy should spend more time on the nature of individuality. Much as the word is bandied about by all and sundry, the 'collective' usurps it every time - even 'though this collective is the agglomeration of its parts. Logical Positivism was (admirably) embodied by particular humans whose objective involvement with empiricism was still a part of their subjective individual natures. I must stop before I disappear up my own.....! Large thanks to all involved for the continued excellence. Very best wishes - Jane

Dave Nicholson Positive logicalism
I tried to listen all the way through but could not. Will download and try again. But my brain has got wary of political and marketing jargon. You know, book with omega or quantum in the title. Or food claims to be organic. Peter Sellers did a brilliant “ we must go into the future looking backwards at our glorious past.” Sketch once. So it switches off automatically with its jargon detector.Thames Valley police used to have a mission statement (jargon in itself, like Investors in People.) It went “ …..towards diminishing crime………..”only towards it!So the opposite of Logical Positivism must be Illogical Negativism.Ok That is what this contribution is but who can be in favour of Illogical Negativism every day??

david Damant - Logical Positivism
I once [over dinner]asked Ayer when it was that he realised that his point that statements were meaningless unless true by definition or by empirical test entailed that his own statement to this effect was meaningless. He replied that he still in his heart believed his proposition. I said that in that case he was just as bad as the metaphysicians and theologians that he had criticised. "Yes" he replied with glee "I am"

Michael Gordon-Williams/ Sunni-Shia
An excellent taster to a subject that whilst so important to all our lives remains a mystery to most of us. I for one shall dig deeper. That said, what of the ducks......surely we need more. There must be some from UCL et al on the case. Thanks for the programmes even though many pass my singular grey cell by.

The Sunni/Shia Split 25/06/2009
Amen to your ultimate remark "I hope we'll go back to this period" and indeed to amplify the scope to deal with the likes of Sufi mysticism? Which leads me to wonder is there yet a coherent book dealing with the subjects you covered;if not might you consider sponsoring such???Oh yes,why not add as footnote the names and affiliation of your contributors so if one wants to follow up their publications it would be a suitable starting point.Regards, IJS

C. Cameron Shia - Sunni split
Excellent! Very enjoyable and enlightening discussion.Thank you

I.Maire-Shia-Sunni Split
By coincidence I finished reading Barnaby Rogerson's, 'The Heirs of the Prophet Muhammad', the day before the programme. This covered the same ground as your excellent programme and I would strongly recommend it.

Frances Hampson - Shia - Sunni split
Very interesting programme and agree with another listener tha we need more info on this subject. Also concerned about the ducks in St James`s Park. Please continue your investigation.

Re.: Malcolm Chishom and John Ellis McTaggart
Thanks for that. Maybe we ideally need a programme on consciousness and time. Entropy appears to validate a certain physics to time, but consciousness may lie in very different relationship to it. Also, our narrow and habitual nomenclature may drastically limit our concepts....and more importantly, our percepts. Best wishes.

AW. The ducks. Plus, excellent series.
I emailed the website for St James's Park asking if they would contact Mr Bragg to discuss the absence of the ducks with him. I'm afraid I received no reply but perhaps he would have more success if he contacted them himself. This seems the best way to find information, if there is any available.Sorry, I know this is irrelevant here but surely it's a way to put his mind at rest and we can get back to reading about the glorious doings of the park etc., in his newsletter.Plus could IOT be given the extra 15mins? It's a fascinating programme and gives discussion unavailable anywhere else to many people. Ann

Witless Writer
I heard the show -- definitely a great hear, especially since I've heard the biased variations and a curious one at that. Overall impartial but I felt that there were some points that were inadvertently made: it's very subtly anti-Shia and that it was inadvertently suggested that democracy is a non-existent concept in Islam and that's just not true with that since Islamic rules clearly state the need and requirement for a democractically elected leader. A very interesting show, though!

Sunni Shia divide
A very interesting programme thank you. Whilst we're on the subject of the 'word of God', I'll mention a book which I found in my local library last week. It's called 'Whose Word Is It?' by Bart D. Ehrman and relates to the New Testament. The inside cover reads: '...this is the first time that a leading biblical scholar reveals for the general reader the many challenging - even disturbing - early variations of our cherished biblical stories and why only certain versions of those stories qualify for publication in the Bibles we read today.' It's not a fun book but it's thought provoking - especially in its summing up. (St Paul's writings obviously get a fair mention). Very best wishes to all. Jane

C Welch - Sunni and Shia Split
This was excellent - for me one of the best IOT programmes I have heard for a long time. Given the general level of ignorance about Islam amongst (non Muslum) British people, it should perhaps be required listening in all schools. However, the programme left many questions unanswered - for instance, what happened next? which countries are today predominantly Shia and which Sunni? What about the northern Mediterannean countries - are these Shia or Sunni? Please, oh please, let us have Part II on this intriguing subject, bearing in mind the number of IOT programmes on Christianity.

Malcolm Chisholm - The Physics of Time
The subtitle of this programme asked if time was "even real". I realize it was about physics, but I was desperately hoping that the panelists would deal with John Ellis McTaggart's proof of the unreality of time, published in Mind (1908). They did talk in the language of McTaggart with past, present, and future - and the notion that the future will be past and the past has been future. But if you ask if time is real, as this programme did, you simply have to confront McTaggart. His proof is very well known, and McTaggart himself was interesting, being an atheist who believed in immortality. He thought a further reality lay behind time, which we might not be able to perceive, but which we could think of. A pity none of this was even mentioned. Malcolm Chisholm, Holmdel NJ, USA.

Penny on Wittgenstein from 2003
I heard this programme when it was broadcast and have been meaning to listen again ever since. Now six years later...! I just wanted to request a related topic for a future programme - What would BF Skinner be able to contribute to 21st century problems? - you might not see the connection with Wittgenstein, but as a psychologist, I do.

Michael Clegg - Islam
The excellent and scholarly content of melvyn Braggs programs is sometimes affected by his fuzzy diction, particularly of names and dates - rather important in history. I had to rely on his guests who spoke far more clearly to correct what I had mis-heard from the professional broadcaster!Don't mumble MELVYN!!

Sunni Shia Split
Is there any more info on the concept of Tahiya. My interest in the concept is in the fact that 'Tahiya' imitates problems encountered in immunology. Grateful for any references of info.

Tom Hawksley - Sunnis and Shias
Apart from the history, the point made about theology was fascinating: that there was little if any, it was all about politics. The fate of the Shia Imams underlines this: ten of them met violent deaths, so though the academic quickly tried to change the meaning of 'going into hiding', I suspect if most of us were a young Imam to be, we might want to do just that.

Michael Healy June 25
Just as good as usual - how do you maintain the variety of subject?A mild suggestion - what about a 'Further Reading' item somewhere for those who would like to take things further?

Sunni-Shia Divide
The Sunni-Shi’a split was a good programme as we need to be enlightened about Islam. I gathered that Sunnis are the majority(85%) of believers of Islam and areregarded as the orthodox whereas Shi’ites are classed as heretics.However they both share the same belief in the Qu’ran. Because Islam originated in Saudi Arabia inMecca and Medina it is regarded as the motherland of all believers.We know about the importance of the pilgrimage to Mecca. Iran is 90% Shi’a. Iraq has a Sunni minority(formerly in power under Saddam Hussein) and a majority of Shi’ites. We know the dispute who should succeed the Prophet had little to do with doctrine, more to do with the fact Mohammed never said how his successor was to be chosen. Thefirst two caliphs were both companions of the Prophet, Abu Bekr(632-34) and Omar(634-44). They received general support because of their seniority,but Omar was assassinated after 10 years. Both Sunni and Shi’a factions continued to argue about a true successor.The latter thought Ali(son-in-law and cousin) should be the caliph,due to the bloodline. However Uthman , a Meccan aristocrat, became the 3rd Caliph.He was opposed for favouring his own tribe and assassinated by rebels from Iraq and Egypt ,seen as usurper by the Shi’ites. Ali was next in line,with close ties to Mohammed by marriage. Under these first 4 caliphs the greatest conquests and military advances were made, reuniting Arabian tribes in the Arabian peninsular,the Islamic empire stretching east to the Hindu Kush,north to the Caucasus and west to north Africa. Ali did not oppose opposition to Uthman and he is tainted by his desire to arbitrate rather than fight, the Syrians saying ‘God should decide’, whose governor Moawiya becomes the new caliph and new power in Islam due to the conquests.His revolt marks the end of the ‘Mohammedan’ and the beginning of the Arabic period of Islam. This was the Arabic elite formerly excluded from Mohammed’s inner circle. This period of the Omayyad caliphate(661-750) was the period when the political interests of the Arabs were given precedence over the religious interests of Islam. Hussein, the last of the bloodline ,invited to seize the caliphate in Iraq, was done to death with his followers on the way. The martyrdom of Hussein is a pivotal event in the Shi’ite movement and their narrated persecutions.In this era non-Arabic converts to Islam, the mawali, were not given equality with the Moslems. However Greek philosophy and science were discussed freely. The Abbassid caliphate(750-1258) was the 3rd great period of the Islamic Empire centred in Bagdad. The policy of the Empire was based not on the interests of the Arabs so much as on the religious interests of Islam, a return to the apostolic custom of Mohammed. However in truth it was a return to the ceremonial of the pagan PersianEmpire transforming the caliphate into an oriental monarchy. Religious unity was the only conceivable foundation of Empire Every rebellion took on the form of a religious heresy and within a hundred years of this caliphate the Islamic Empire had ceased to exist. Persia, Spain, Morocco and Egypt were independent states,each with its own caliph, declaring that he and he alone was the rightful successor.You informedus that the Shi’te technique of survival was‘dissimulation’, hiddenness,to preserve the community from attack by the Sunnis. Immams became hidden with no community leader But you end saying they are now very similar in the way that both sects turn to scholars to interpret the Qu’ran.Radical clerics from one sectmay still demean those from another.

FMLunnon, Sunni and Shia
It did seem a terrific missed opportunity not to have two speakers who were adherents. I feel much better briefed about Muhammad's successors, but largely in the dark about how it feels now to be Sunni or Shia.

Ali R : Sunni/Shia split
The programme was a reasonable attempt to capture the essence of the split between Sunni and Shia within the Islamic community, using scholars who themselves are not affiliated to either side. However, I fear that people with vested interests from both sides of this "split Moslem family" will soon enough start to voice their concerns about particular innaccuracies in the programme that do special injustice to their side of the schism. If that was all that were to happen, then one could argue that the BBC have engaged in a useful piece of education and the ensuing healthy debate. I fear, however, that the two sides of this community do not yet know how to engage in healthy debate. You just need to look at Iraq and other parts of the world where Sunni and Shia continue their quarrels to this day.....and they hurl more than mere insults at each other.They forget what their Prophet Muhammad stood for.Ali R

Peter Bolt :Sunni/Shia
Lucid,entertaining, and very informative. What else is there to say ?

Mr B S Freeguard
Today's programme was most enlightening. Well done for what seemed to be an unbiased, academic based observation into the beginnings of Islam. I would be intrigued to know what the response to this edition is from the muslim community.

Sunni-Shia-divide
The talk/discussion on the Sunni/Shia succession was very interesting and this book will give a clear account of the history and reasons for the split following Muhammad's death (at least I thought so). The Heirs of the Prophet Muhammad: And the Roots of the Sunni-Shia Schism by Barnaby Rogerson

Beth - Titus Andronicus
Grateful thanks to the person who mentioned the Oliver 1950'sproduction. For some fifty years I've recalled the impression the play made on me. As an enthusiastic Aus.teenager I'd seen Laurence Olivier and Vivian Leigh in Sydney on their tour after the war. I started saving to come to England (Sea trip took five weeks & four days and ticket cost £50 for shared cabin) and I'm still here! Great memories of Stratford, Old Vic, Royal Court etc. I was sure I'd seen Titus Andronicus staged in a London theatre - a very powerful & haunting performance in which the actors utilised long red streamers to symbolise blood, and there's so much of it! I wonder if any other 50's play-goer can confirm this imaginative interpretation of the play's stage directions which must be a difficult aspect of the live performance? Was Oliver also the director?

Alan Logsdail - Titus Andronicus
The BBC TV production of Titus Andronicus of 1985 and directed by Jane Howell is quite superb and has powerful and moving performances by Trevor Peacock, Eileen Atkins, Hugh Quarshie and others. The snag is you have to buy the complete set of 37 dvds to see it!

Martin Aaron - end of Jacobean drama podcast
ohhh...! Sunni and Shia!Was I the only person who thought Melvyn said "Next week, the split between Sonny and Cher in the 7th Century."?Must get new hearing aid

REVENGE
Hamlet questions the ETHICS of revenge?? When does he say anything like "Maybe I SHOULDN'T do this"? He's all for it, he just can't DO it, and he tells us WHY. Thinking too precisely. ('Conscience' in 'To be' doesn't mean MORAL conscience, it means Thought). The play is not ABOUT revenge, revenge is its DEVICE to explore a much deeper question: the relationship of thought to action in rational man.

YY
I generally like the podcasts - they would profit from adding a few minutes on "modern day relevance" for each topic though. Latest example - revenge drama - the potentially very interesting discussion on modern day equivalents (Eastwood, Tarantino) was shut down immediately...

Nik - General
Put all series on Audio CD or MP3 downloads from the BBC Shop. Fantastic series. Informative, absorbing and Melvyn Bragg makes its so worth while listening. Makes me happy to pay the licence fee. Well done BBC!

John A (Brentford) - Sunni and Shia split
Am looking forward to next week's programme. I have always felt that 30 minutes is too brief to do your guests full justice. For example, if next week's programme was, say, 60 minutes, it may have time to cover the reunion as the popular 1960s recording act.

Stevie; revenge tragedy
Interesting discussion, but I was surprised that a) there was no mention of the rise of the Jacobean private theatres (the discussion only took account of the outdoor playhouses and performances at court); b) very little discussion of the centrality of women in many of the tragedies (although I think Julie Sanders tried to introduce this late in the debate); c) an assumption that revenge tragedy ended with Middleton - John Ford would be miffed; and d) the persistence of the intentional fallacy... the idea that we knew what Shakespeare was thinking, or what he was trying to say about the morality of revenge when writing Hamlet. Jeepers. It's as if critical theory never happened.

re. Mike A - St Paul and miracles
So - miracles. Have to say that I also smiled when I heard that philosophers now allow miracles. Anybody familiar with the work of the late Harry Edwards will not need confirmation from such intellectuals. He was a dear man and an exemplary healer who each day, quietly and unpretentiously, showed that the physics of the physical isn't as limited as it might generally appear. As for Mike's remark, I would offer this Ambrose Bierce quotation: 'Absurdity' - 'A statement or belief manifestly inconstant with one's own opinion.' Best wishes....and thanks for the St Paul programme which, as so often happens, left us with more questions than answers, reflecting our oh so frustrating lot!

John-Elizabethan & Jacobean Revenge Tragedy
The contrast between taking justice in one’s own hands and the law of the state seem to be at the root of revenge plays. As you said this wild justice puts the law out of office. We also have the contrast between pagan, Senecan forms of justice andChristian ideas of conscience and mercy. The state is trying to take full control.Things that came up were 1) use of ghosts to haunt the living with the crime,usually children of the victims.2) barnstorming language and rhetoric(hence popularity);3)the play-within-the-play;4) madness feigned and real;5)multiple revenges;6)revenge crime surpassing original crime(e.g. children served up in pies: Titus Andronicus and Thyestes);7)influenceof Seneca;8) murder of the good by the bad;9)a period of disguises;10)eruptions of violence and catastrophe;11) use of soliloquy to unpack emotion.The English playwrights use the revenge plot to explore themes of decadence and corruption in the late Elizabethan/Jacobean courts. The influence of legalistic issuesand the Inns of Court are brought to bear upon older medieval concepts of justice.As in Beowulf we have writers looking back to pagan sources and mourning their passing. In Hamlet we we get reflective conscience to doubt simple acts of revenge.We still get bodies.There is the interrogation of the simple ethic of revenge: what would you do in Hamlet’s place? So a strong Christian context and the idea of divinity hedging the king.A battle between classical pagan codes and Christian notions of forgiveness.Patterns of revenge are given contemporary resonance in the history play with their dynastic, factional disputes. Jonathan Bate told how plays were summoned to be played at court and playwrights were sailing close to the wind, hence the unknownauthor of The Revenger’s Tragedy(probably Middleton). This is cynical towards the Jacobean court, known for its corruption, and shows an unremitting savagery.There is a threatening gleefulness in the death-dealing climax of the masque-within-a-play. This plays with the mechanics of revenge-the use of abstracted names to give essence of character(Vindice), the macabre use of the poisoned skull to trick the duke to kiss it,the use of the masque to assassinate and murder,the corrupt family unit, the restoration and the moral conclusion. I thought everycontributor was equally good at moving the subject along or bringing somethingnew to bear and Melvyn was at home in this subject.

Col Farrell re Revenge Tragedy
I know of no real evidence that the Bard allowed his plays to be slashed to fit a "two hours' traffic" limit. Surely the point is that they acted it quicker: no complex scene or lighting changes,no indulgent pauses or naturalistic meandering. Plot detail is reiterated to allow the audience to catch up if they missed it the first time. The axing of Fortinbras and "How all occasions..." is always a regrettable loss. I'm glad to see from the Home Page that next week is about the Sunni and Shia split not, as I thought I heard it, a spat early on in the career of Sonny and Sher. C.F.

Melvyn Bragg Titus Andronicus
As a student in London in the early 50's I saw Laurence Olivier and Vivian Leigh in Titus Andronicus. During the pie scene the whole audience screamed. I have never forgotten it.

Jeff (Oakland, CA, USA) ........Hmmmmm...
Scrolling down the list of programme titles on your "Current Series Archive" page, I noted with some amusement that there were six degrees of separation between HEAT and HELL. Probably meaningless, but it could be some "force" using the subconsciousness of your scheduling person or team to let weather-obsessed Jungians know that wintertime is about to begin "down there," just as in Australia.

Mark Hollingworth - The Augustan Age
How about a programme sometime on Ovid's Metamorphoses and its influence (or has this been done already?)?

Mark Reid - requests
I don't know if you take requests - I imagine not as I'm sure you have masses of ideas already. But if you don't ask you don't get. Any chance of a programme exploring the myths surrounding the English Oak?

Nisaba -- Augustus
There was a rather good radio play about Ovid a year or two ago. It presented him as an aesthete out of his depth in politics, speculated about what exactly he did to incur his exile, and generally had a gripping storyline. Repeat please!

Peter Household - Augustus
How clear was it at the time that the Republic had become the Empire? How well do these two English words translate the Latin?

Peter Bolt : Ovid
Having just read Melvyns newsletter I confidently predict a huge rise in the sales (or should that be sails) of Ars Amatoria.

Jim Entwistle - in our time
I just wanted to say how much I value and enjoy "in our time" - and how wonderful it is to have past programmes available on archive. A truly life enhancing service - arguably worth the licencee fee by itself! Thank you, BCC.

Augustus
A good programme and discussion.Thanks.Augustus had a lot to live down following Caesar,who crossed the Rubicon of legality,consorted with Cleopatra,making himself dictator for life and monarch of the empire for life. He embodied the idea of the god-king from Egypt. The expiring of Romanrepublicanism flared up in Caesar's stabbing.After the defeat of his only remaining rival Mark Anthony at Actiumin 31BC, Octavian became sole master of the Roman world.He had no foolish craving to be god or king,he had no queen-lover to dazzle,he restoredfreedom to the senate and people of Rome.He declined to be dictator.The grateful senate gave him the realityand not the forms of power. He was not to be called'King' but 'Princeps' and'Augustus'. He became 'Augustus Caesar'the first of the Roman emperors.His reign was notable for peace,finding Rome a city of brick and turning it into a city of marble. Patron of the arts,writers like Horace,Virgil and Ovid flourished and Augustus cleverlyused whatever forms of propaganda wereavailable to express his image and Rome's history,using them to unite hisempire and people.He abhored vices and immorality hence his treatment of his aldulterous daughter and offspring andhis exile of Ovid.As you say he was respected by the Roman people for doingthis.Augustus had a hand in creating the roads and the aqueducts and he restored the temples and worship of the ancestral gods,'to pay for sins' asHorace declared in his Odes.His aim wasclear:by reinstating traditional values, the madness of the immediate past would be forgotten and venerationof the Roman state gods would bring afurther degree of unity to war-torn Italy.

Ned : Augustus - character and personality
We have an excellent thumbnail here of Augustus and his public virtues, vices , principles and practices, but I would like a closer analysis of his personality. In the wonderful TV series we had the emperor played by Brian Blessed - nothing if not ebullient - but an exquisite reworking of Augustus in Allan Massie's eponymous 1986 historical reconstruction has him as a slight, aesthetic, if not effete individual, with an abhorrence of physical deformity,and this is much in keeping with the images we have of him - including the one superimposed on the 'Play it Again' webpage. This side of Augustus would bear further investigation by Melvyn et al.

Melvin Hurst - St. Paul
Fascinating stuff, but the most interesting question, of whether Christianity would have been the same without the influence of Paul, was left to the very end, with only a few seconds for each contributor to give a, not very satisfactory, answer. The more intriguing question should have been "Would Christianity ever have become a world religion without Paul's work, or would it have languished as a local phenomenon and eventually died out?" I suspect that the answer to this is the latter alternative.

Jane Balderson Ovid's Metamorpheses
I found the programme on Augustus fascinating but the part about Ovid too short. Could you do a programme just about Ovid's Metamorpheses? I keep seeing it referred to as a source for paintings and literature and would love to know more about it. Where did Ovid get all the stories from and why did he put them all in one poem - was he paid or commisioned?I find all Melvyn's programmes brilliant- nothing else like them - he has the gift of asking the very question the listener is asking themselves and somehow makes the academics explain things simply and clearly. Looking forward to Revenge Drama next week.

Gilbert Hall; Tense
I would like to add my vote against the constant use of the historical present tense. I can see that its occasional use can make for dramatic effect. But using it everywhere is very annoying. It's a bit like having everything printed in capital letters. It seems to be a fashion. What's behind its spread?

Mike A - St Paul
I chuckled at the suggestion that contemporary philosophers no longer consider miracles to be absurd. Yet another reason not to take them seriously...

Jo Hawk Use of the present historic
When did historians begin using the present tense when discussing past events? I suppose they believe that this device renders historic events more dramatic. Personally I find it distracting. Often it leads to absurd locutions. For example, today one contributor said: "Augustus gets looked back to as..." How am I supposed to concentrate on what is being said when I get looked back on how it's said?

James Baring - Augustan Age
Illuminating and enlightening, a great team, the first time I have ever really understood the significance of much of what was covered in spite of previous attempts.

Ian Buist, C.B. Augustus
This interesting programme unfortunately missed a few important points.After Actium, Augustus (as he became)at first tried to "work the system" by occupying one of the consulates every year. But this cut in half the traditional career opportunities for the ruling class in the Senate, and eventually there seems to have been an attempted revolt headed by his fellow-consul for 23 B.C. This unfortunate had his name scrubbed off every monument - literally written out of history - and replaced by his compliant successor (adscripted to the job for the rest of the year), except on one or two monuments - which is how we know about what must have happened. Thereafter Augustus ceased to occupy the consulate, and instead built on the (few) powers held by the tribunes -as all his successors also did. [The post of "dictator" was clearly out.] But beyond this, as was pointed out, he had the loyalty of the Army, and that was secured by the "sacramentum", the oath taken by all troops.In effect, Augustus then created a dyarchy, leaving the Senate to govern the old traditional provinces, and so maintaining the old "cursus honorum", but putting the others under his direct rule. Egypt - where he was in practice the Pharaoh - was forbidden territory to every Senator."Augustus" was not a name - pace Melvyn - but a title. Its subtlety arises from its being a translation of the Greek "Sebastos", which had connotations of divinity (as under some of the post-Alexander rulers). It had the merit of calling to the worshipping loyalty of the Greek-speaking subjects of the East, but not implying, in its Latin form, any claim to divinity in the west.It is striking that Augustus chose as the public watchword "Roma et Augustus" - linking his own personality with the whole Roman state and history. Tiberius, on his accession, was more careful and chose "Tiberius et Senatus".The Augustan deal was extremely clever. Instead of changing or monoplising the system, Augustus built into it an institutional cuckoo in the nest, to which, despite the formalities (which he was very careful to preserve) all power seeped away from the original ruling bodies to the Imperial household (fed by the "fiscus").I think it was Prof. Syme who argued that Augustus had moved "from imperium to auctoritas", but in fact the reverse was surely true - the symbols of his "auctoritas" from 23 BC onwards swiftly drew the reality of power into themselves.

Colin - general commet,
Thank you for the best programme on any subject on radio or television. It's nice that there are still programmes of an intelligent nature on the media.

Roger Dickinson, the rise of atheism
Having spent most of the last 3 years living and working in Libya, a nation more conservatively Islamic some would argue than Saudi Arabia, I have become more interested in the nature of belief and the growth of atheism.I was fascinated by last week's discussion about the trial of Charles I, but hoped that someone might have commented upon the effect that the regicide had upon religious belief in Britain. Did the lack of divine intervention, other than having to put up with Cromwell et al, have an adverse effect upon Christian faith?Should anyone care to comment or recommend appropriate texts, I'd be most grateful. No Biblical tosh, please.

John Leake - St. Paul
An excellent programme on St Paul. John Haldale's contribution was particularly good. Making an earlier comment, Louise Taylor said: "[...] Melvyn Bragg stopped the contributor who was talking about the development of St. Augustine's theology based upon St. Paul from moving on to discuss Karl Barth. The next contributor spoke about Martin Luther and, as Melvyn seemed to imply, the good news that we didn't need the Church in order to be saved, in other words, the doctrine of justification by faith alone. But this is not the end of the debate by any means and it was wrong from the programme to end here. [...] why was Luther given the last word?"I think that's a bit unfair - remember the incredible time constraints. John Haldane (who was actually stopped from moving on to Luther) spoke on Augustine. John Barclay then spoke on Luther (each had 2.5 minutes) and Melvyn had to drop his question on Barthes due to lack of time; instead he asked Helen Bond a vaguer question on Paul's language (she had 1 minute) before asking the important question of what Christianity would have been like without Paul (1 minute). All clear and in seven minutes!But that suggests to me that IOT must do a programme on Augustine soon, both as theologian and philosopher. I'm amazed, looking at the archives, that one hasn't seem to have been done yet.

Peter Household - Charles I
I think David Wootton said not being allowed defence counsel was standard for treason trials. This was at minute 14:45 on the podcast. The reply was swallowed so I couldn't make it out - could this information be confirmed? As to no plea, strange the court didn’t entered a not guilty plea on Charles’s behalf, seeing as they were making the rules up anyway. (I think this is how Milosevic was proceeded against by the UN's International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia for crimes against humanity in Kosovo. I may be wrong on this, but I'm sure it has been done in recent history).

Richard King -- general
I would enjoy In Our Time a lot more if Melvyn was a little nicer to his guests.

Kevin Gleig: re Charles I
Dear Melvyn Bragg thanks, as usual, for your newsletter; the King Charles I trial programme was one of your best, in an extremely good series On the House of Lords, I put forward ideas 30 years ago, as a civil servant, that politicians disliked; mainly on the grounds that they tipped the balance of power too far towards the electorate, and away from the professional polliticians who know better... Without boring you with all the detail, I proposed reform of the Lords and the Commons at the same time. I did not accept then, and the Big Brother TV series has proved, that the public cannot cope with complicated vote-counting systems, or with making choices. I suggested: House of Commons 150 constituencies, each returning 3 MPs; election by modified single transferable vote - the computer can do the bit where the bottom candidate drops out, and his votes redistributed, until one person has 50+% of the voters; then the same until a second candidate has 50+%; then (controversial, I know) if the two so far elected are both male, then remove and redistribute until there is a female candidate with 50+%, but if one of the first two is female, then the third candidate is by the same means as the other two. There's a bit of fancy computer programming involved; but the public simply have to list some or all candidates in whatever order they choose (for example, a Labour constituency may vote in a candidate who is a local Councillor, in preference to either a sitting MP whose expenses offend, or a "parachuted" HQ person). In addition to the 450 elected MPs, there will be 30 MPs appointed by the governing party; they will be able to act as MPs as quasi-substitutes for 30 elected MPs who are appointed Government Ministers, including being able to vote in their place (there will be only 450 votes counted, but this will avoid the nonsense of Government Ministers flying halfway round the world to vote, or being distracted by constuency matters - for example, the Prime Minister's surrogate could telephone Simon Cowell on his behalf) House of Lords Two routes to membership: by appointment, as now, so that the massive pool of expertise remains available to the nation; no limit on numbers, but the House (and only the House) to have power to elect an appointed Noble Lord or Lady to a paid post on a Scrutiny Committee, to look at a particular piece of legislation within his or her area of knowledge; Appointed Peers will have the right to speak, but not to vote. In addition, 150 Peers will be elected by Region / country; the Government will set five or six electoral systems, and each Region's electorate can choose the system it fancies. Elected Peers will have the right to speak and also the right to vote; Whipping will be forbidden. This is a quick summary, but I think it is a workable scheme. It may well lead to a coalition Government, ie a Government built on the votes of more than half of the voting electorate - is that a bad thing? Next time you're doing a programme on electoral reform, perhaps you'd bear in mind that there are many people out here with ideas regards Kevin Gleig

Brian Smith, Charles I
Splendid interventions by Diane Purkiss. The others sounded a bit lachrymose about poor Charles, but Purkiss's remarks were more realistic. I regard In our time as a university of the air, and this was one of the best so far, I think.

John- The Trial of Charles I
‘He nothing common did or meanUpon that memorable scene’ said Marvell in his Horation Ode. This depicted the great dignity of Charles and his noble death. After which the Protectorate crumbled. Milton published republican protests even as the Restoration loomed. After,copies of his works were publicly burned .In danger of execution he was a fugitivethen a prisoner, though after payment of a massive fine he was retired due to the intercession of Marvell and D’Avenant. Marvell protected him after the Restoration. Milton had written pamphlets attacking monarchy and justifying the regicide of Charles I, The Tenure of Kings and Magistrates and Eikonoklastes, a riposte to a work attributed to the king, Eikon Basilike (The Royal Image). In his retirement he completed Paradise Lost. The Eikon Basilike was authored by the Bishop ofWinchester, John Gauden. It was represented as the prayers and meditations of Charles I during his imprisonment and published on the day of the king’s burial,9 February 1649, running to 40 editions before the Restoration in 1660. Gaudenprobably compiled his book from the notes and memoranda left by Charles, and succeeded remarkably well in presenting the late king as a royal martyr. We still live in a royalist or monarchical parliament, only the power now resides in the Presidential office of Prime Minister. Look how hard the rebels are findingit to remove him due to them lacking a creditable candidate. No one is powerful enough to wield the blade. Perhaps the king-maker now is Alistair Darling! Does parliament even today represent the sovereignty of the people?Let's see.

Andy - Peterborough re Charles I
The things I learn lying in bed on my day off! Thank you again for a great programme. I usually prefer the science-based topics but this was really illuminating. Thank you.PS my daughter and I rested in the park in St James Square last week - definitely no ducks there...

James Woodard - use of the present tense!
The broadcast about the trial of Charles 1st was very nearly unintelligible by the contributors' continual use of the present continuous tense for events which had happened in the past. When using this approach, a serious problem arises when the speaker has to described an event that happened in the subjects future. Is the past tense being phased out?It is a serious question and worthy of some investigation. Why do educated people use this tense to describe the past? I ask because very many presenters of TV documentaries no longer use the past tense as a matter of course.

Andrew Titcombe St James Park -Ducks
Reference your (excellent) newsletter - The ducks still thrive on the pond at Highmoor Mansions -now cleaned out and "refurbished"

Kath Potter Trial of Charles Ist
What an interesting programme! Like Julian Chapman I was fascinated -- and horrified, to learn about the practise of crushing those that would not plead.During this week's show, several points were made which I had not considered -- most informative!

Tom Merrington - St Paul
Of course Christianity would not have taken hold without Paul, though doubtless another contender - perhaps Mithraism - would have flourished instead. You could say Christianity is the 2000 year inflation of Paul's hallocinogenic 'bubble'! I wonder if he was chewing some hedgerow 'herb' on his way to Damascus.

Andy Thompson ----- In Our Time
The best programme on radioPlease please make the archives available as Podcasts

julian chapman re tense
I have just learned by switching on part way in to the programme that if a person on trial will not plead he is crushed to death. I was not aware that this is the case!

Peter Bolt :Charles I
You very nearly turned me into a Royalist.

Sue Rook - The trial of Charles I
Just to thank everyone concerned for a truly enjoyable programme this morning. It should be used as a template for what the BBC does best. Melvyn chaired with even handedness and the resultant discussion was fascinating. Thank you so much. You've made my morning.

Alex McGregor - Trial of Charles 1st
Listening to the programme today, I heard frequent references to England and the English people from both Melvyn Bragg and other contributers in connection with the trial and not once from a British perspective. Charles 1st was of course king of the United Kingdom then. Are we missing something and was the event more focused on England due to events there. What did the remainder of the United Kindom think of it then given it was also their king who was on trial. Perhaps the contributors might have made this clearer for listeners in other parts of the UK.

Graeme Cox - St. Paul : You're Missing the Point
I've read alot of the comments on the St. Paul programme, mainly anti Paul, and you are all missing the point. What is of import here are the changes in the spiritual/ pyschological make up of mankind during this period. When you understand this you would realise that who preached what and who got the upper hand is neither here nor there as the outcome would have been the same i.e. where we are now, today, was inevitable.You would then understand what was going on in Paul on the road to Damascusand why they felt they had moved into a new age.All your academic diatribe and prolixity is superfluous and worthless waffle. You shouldn't be looking at the past but should be considering the future as we move towards some more changes.

In Our Time - Whales
I subscribe to In Our Time through iTunes and it appears that it has skipped a week, missing out the program on whales and their evolution. Is it just me or have any other iTunes subscribers not been able to get this episode ?

Louise Taylor - St. Paul
The subject was well presented up to a point. However, Melvyn Bragg stopped the contributor who was talking about the development of St. Augustine's theology based upon St. Paul from moving on to discuss Karl Barth. The next contributor spoke about Martin Luther and, as Melveyn seemed to imply, the good news that we didn't need the Church in order to be saved, in other words, the doctrine of justification by faith alone. But this is not the end of the debate by any means and it was wrong from the programme to end here. The Council of Trent was set up by theRoman Catholic Church in order to answer the questions thrown up by the Reformation, including Luther's teaching on justification. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that salvation is brought about by both faith and works. In layman's language, you can't say you have faith in Christ but lead a life contrary to Christian values feeling that faith will justify you. Scholars have considered Paul's theology on justification for four hundred years since the Reformation. In thi slight, why was Luther given the last word?

John Edwards -- St Paul
There is no evidence that Jesus existed as an historical person. St Paul made up a Gnostic religion, and subsequently the writer of Mark's gospel made up a story that the Saviour was a real person who could walk on water.

Richard Misson - St Paul Continued
Paul travelled with a woman who baptised, he is also made to attack the Gnostic practice of treating women as equal to men:'A woman should quietly receive instruction in complete obedience. I will not allow a woman to be a teacher nor act superior to a man.’At the end of the second century, then, Paul is portrayed by Literalist Christians as anti-Gnostic and authoritarian. This has been assumed to be historically accurate, but is actually only the perspective of these Literalist Christians. Just a few decades earlier, however, their view was the complete opposite - in the first half of the second century letters attributed to Clement, the Bishop of Rome, vigorously attack Paul as a misguided heretic! These letters describe Peter as vehemently denying Paul's status as an apostle since only an eyewitness of the resurrection should be regarded as an apostle and Paul did not actually see the risen Christ. Paul's vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus is apparently not only invalid; it is a revelation from an evil demon or lying spirit! (Herodotus). Jesus is claimed to be 'angry' with Paul who is his 'adversary', because what Paul preaches is 'contradictory' to Jesus' teachings. Peter writes of Paul as his 'enemy' who has convinced some of the Gentiles to reject the Jewish Law and to embrace 'foolish teachings' which are 'outside the Law'. Paul is accused of creating a heretical gospel and Jesus' genuine apostles have to secretly send out 'a true gospel' to correct these heresies. Like his contemporary the arch-heretic Simon Magus, Paul is a satanically inspired divider of the Christian community. He is a dangerous man who should be expelled from the Church!PAUL AND THE PAGAN MYSTERIESIf we can throw off the traditional picture of Paul and look at the evidence with an open mind this anti-Paul rhetoric is understandable, since his letters show distinct Gnostic and Pagan influences. Paul is a Jew who had embraced the ubiquitous Greek culture of the times. He writes in Greek, his first language. He quotes only from the Greek version of the Old Testament. His ministry is to Pagan cities dominated by Greek culture. Of these, Antioch was a centre for the Mysteries of Adonis, Ephesus was a centre for the Mysteries of Attis and Corinth was a centre for the Mysteries of Dionysus. Paul was a native of Tarsus in Asia Minor, which by his time had surpassed even Athens and Alexandria to become the major centre of Pagan philosophy. It was in Tarsus that the Mysteries of Mithras had originated, so it would have been unthinkable that Paul would have been unaware of the remarkable similarities we have already explored between Christian doctrines and the teachings of Mithraism.Paul frequently uses terms and phrases from the Pagan Mysteries, such as pneuma (spirit), gnosis (divine knowledge], doxa (glory), sophia (wisdom), teleioi (the initiated), and so on. He advises his followers to 'earnestly seek the greater charismata'. The word 'charismata' derives from the Mystery term makarismos, referring to the blessed nature of one who has seen the Mysteries. He even calls himself a 'Steward of the Mysteries of God', which is the technical name for a priest in the Mysteries of Serapis.Paul quotes the Pagan sage Aratus, who had lived in Tarsus several centuries earlier, describing God 'in whom we live, and move and have our being'. He also teaches Mystery doctrines. Like the Pagan sage Socrates, who was deemed wise because he knew he knew nothing, Paul teaches:'If someone thinks he knows something, he still doesn't know the way he ought to know.Just as Plato had written that we now only see reality 'through a glass dimly', so Paul writes, “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face.”This famous passage from Paul has also been translated:'At present all we see is the baffling reflection of reality; we are like men looking at a landscape in a small mirror. The time will come when we shall see reality whole and face to face.’This translation clearly brings out the Platonic nature of

Winston Close: In Our Time
Dear In Our Time,I must start by saying I live in Melbourne Australia and I stream and podcast your show and I find it an invaluable entertainment and resource. If there is one criticism I have it is in the scope of your enquiries. Science seems to encompass the entirety of the subjects history, from the ancient to the contemporary moment but philosophy and culture both halt in the middle of the 20th century. Why is this? A possible answer I can forsee is that there is already enough on radio 4 but this is not really the case. It would be so interesting to hear British academics discussing The frankfurt school, continental philosophers, thinkers such as Deleuze, Foucault, Negri and Zizek. The rise of Cultural studies, the theatre of Beckett, Pinter and Sarah Kane. A program on any of these topics, I feel would be both within the guidelines of the programme, and of interest to listeners,thank you once again for the show,Winston Close

David McDonagh
I was surprised that the others did not question Melvyn's confidence that the Acts [presumably by the author of the "Luke" gospel], was trustworthy as a source for Paul when the character there clashes so much with the author of the Pauline epistles. It seems clear that Acts, by the great contrast cited, is a later work of fiction. Ditto the gospels themselves, all indulged in owing to the end clearly not being nigh after all. Paul never went on about the life of Jesus as he had no access to the said gospels, that were written after he was dead. They are both Paukline & also post-Pauline too. It would be great if Melvyn could invite G.A. Wells to gave his account of Christianity.

Lawrence: Paul/Saul
Paul may indeed have founded Christianty, but decidedly in the role of double agent. Paul remained true to his traditional Jewish roots. He recognised the insidious danger to religious Jewish life posed by the nascent Christian movement and took drastic and revolutionary steps to expose and delineate it for what it was: a fundamentally non-Jewish belief and value system. What better way, than to commandeer the new religion and steer it away once and for all from Torah Judaism?

Jon,length of programme
Is it not obvious to all and sundry that the programme needs a full hour?

Nick Darby - St Paul
Dear Melvyn,I hope you get to read this.First of all, many thanks for the stimulating 'In Our Time' programs,but straight to the point. I happen to be reading 'Irrationality byStuart Sutherland' (Pinter & Martin) and came across this apposite quote(page 8):There is a small area in the middle of the right-hand side of the brainwhich produces a curious effect if an epileptic focus develops there. Insuch a focus the nerve cells from time to time all fire together: whenthey do so, they cause an epileptic seizure. A focus in this particulararea can render the person highly religious, and cause him to avoid sexin any form and to give up all addictions such as smoking and alcohol.Remarkably, when the focus is removed the person goes back to hisprevious existence: he may become an atheist, and return to cigarettes,alcohol and the pursuit of sex. It may be that the form the Christianreligion has taken was in part caused by St Paul suffering an epilepticattack on the road to Damascus.

Paul
I was very, very disappointed with the In Our Time broadcast on Paul, which completely lacked the balance and objectivity of previous programmes, eg previous week on the evolution of the whale. It is stated 'there is a movement away from scepticism'. Well, sure there is - if you simply have three Christian apologetic speakers on the programme and ignore all recent analysis by other sources!! I refer for example to Maccoby H 'The Mythmaker: Paul and the invention of Christianity', 1986, Eisenman R 'Paul as Herodian' 1996, Eisenman R 'James the brother of Jesus', Cresswell P 'Censored Messiah' 2004 and Cresswell P, 'Jesus the Terrorist' 2009 which has a long section on 'The Enemy: Paul'.The programme states that the only evidence lies in the gospel sources. Not true; there is some surviving ebionite testimony on 'the enemy' Paul, eg in the Pseudoclementine Recognitions. There's Josephus and certain of the Dead Sea Scrolls, eg the Commentary on Habbakuk; there is a powerful case that these contain evidence relating to Saul/Paul.Some statements in the programme are just factually incorrect, eg the opening statement that Paul/Saul was a Jewish zealot tentmaker who persecuted Christians. Almost certainly wrong on all four counts! The most outrageously misguided statement, towards the end, was that Paul was persecuting Christians because they were watering down Judaism! That's absolutely wrong. Paul/Saul on just the evidence of the Letters and Acts was persecuting messianic Nazorean Jews, that is extremely zealous Jews, on behalf of the pro-Roman Sadducee High Priest. There weren't any Christians then! That was something, as Acts makes clear, that Paul created first at Antioch.The apostles (the Nazorean followers of a Jewish messiah) didn't incidentally receive Paul nor did he join them. On purely the internal evidence of Acts, they kept him at arm's length (because he was so dangerous) and ultimately rejected him.What about the Eucharist which the evidence from the Letters, Acts and the Didache indicate Paul invented?What about the question of Paul's claimed Roman citizenship? How did he get it? Your apologetic Christian panelists don't discuss these issues, and it can be presumed don't have answers. But there are good explanations from alternative viewpoints , which could have been discussed had the programme been wide and objective enough.Please, please can we have a further programme which looks at all these issues and is more balanced?

Robert Gore.......St. Paul
The impression I got from reading all the New Testment about St. Paul, as a student, was that he deliberately modified the teachings of Jesus to try and contain the new rapidly growing breakaway sect within the broader Judaism, and to make the teachings acceptable to the jews of the day by emphasizing those parts that would appeal and neglecting those that would exclude. The program seemed to imply that St Paul did the opposite, namely modifying the teachings to make them acceptable to gentiles to draw them in. The new sect appealed to the poor, the foreign and the excluded and persecuted because it taught a direct personal link to God, without intervention by a trained priest and stated that a church was merely a gathering of any few faithful in any place at any time. Is it not the case that the early church had a majority of non jews and various immigrants and minorities, including the miscelaneous poor, and that the fear of Paul was that this ragbag group would steal the power and knowledge of the Orthodoxy and grow to challenge the then existing status quo? Until recently, (within the last 40 years) prayers and ceremonies were still held in remote Syrian and Iraqi monastries in Aramaic, the local language of Jesus and his followers, and that these followers had a direct oral link to the original teachings, that had not been through the formal contortions of Councils and politics and language changes that had happened to the texts and faith in Europe, and had not undergone, to the same extent, the changes instituted by St. Paul? Their simple faith did not seem to be primarily about money, power, and property and control like the main thrust in Europe across the centuries, inspite of various reforms and aspirations. That is why some quip that the modern Western faith would be better called Paulianity. Hopefully some scholars will make contact with these remnants of the ancient church and find some insight into the spirit of the early teachings before all their old men have died out or been killed during the recent upheavals, and their lineage is lost for ever.

Mrs Jan Say:
In response to Melvyn's Newsletter question, 'Is it Blasphemous?' (that he had just been musing that without Paul's writings Christianity might have remained just one more small sect). Of course it's not blasphemous to question any aspect of a faith. Such questions surely allow us to engage in proper discussion. But I do feel very sad that the BBC was today (after last night's Question Time broadcast) cowed into submission, once more, by complaints from representatives of other faiths - AND YET we regularly hear broadcast insults and the ridicule of our own faith system, Christianity. (eg News Quiz?) Faiths do not need to compete with one another and followers of faith systems do need to convert one another. We read our scriptures and we also have a mind of our own. Christianity is, surely, this country's inheritance and is our way of tryng to make a certain sort of sense out of a world which is clearly far more than 'simply' matter and freewill. Not everyone has to agree - how can we agree on something we can't explain or describe? We can however read, learn, teach and search for a personal road within faith. I don't expect you to publish this communication but really want us as a nation (which doesn't think itself too clever to learn from the thoughts of great thinkers of the past and present) to stand up for our own faith tradition. The differences in presentation between the marvellous In Our Time and the rabble-rousing Question Time are obvious to listeners and speakers alike. I am a fan of both! Would that it were possible to allow, encourage, deep and reasoned debate in light of philosophy, psychology and the spiritual difficulties - as they might be called - of all members of the human race to be taught from the perspective of professionals who PRACTISE their Christianity in humility and are broadcasting as a result of such work and experience ... Poor old Anglican Church, so misunderstood! :(

Alice: Paul and the Newsletter
I'm relieved to see the comments from Clive Durdle and Rokewood - I, too, was disappointed that the panel seemed to be stuck with the errors of the 'New Testament' concerning Pharisees. My sense that there wasn't much real scholarship around was reinforced by the Newsletter's reference to both Paul and Jesus as rabbis. They weren't. Rabbis didn't exist until after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70CE. I really am surprised that this programme seemed to lack any Jewish or historical perspective. I know that Christians have a big focus on Paul - after all, he pretty much invented/established Christianity - but In Our Time is usually critical and questioning, and the lack of non-Christian thought seemed an aberration.

Quentin
There is nothing blasphemous about speculating that without Paul and Damscus Christianity might have been short lived.(Newsletter)After all think of the millions of reproductive chances in our lineage, yet we are all meant to be here.I cannot square the chance of human affairs with God's providence because the latter is beyond the capacity of human understanding. One takes place in the human sphere, and is true, the other takes place if the infinite sphere, and is true.

Ken on St Paul
I was disappointed that the Academics chosen were unable or unwilling to discuss the poles apart teachings of Jesus and Paul: one said be a child and discover for yourself, the other to be a bondservant and believe in the Son-God.What a missed opportunity in our time.

Terry Robson - Whales, its newsletter & the pod
As Melvyn's newsletter reveals yet again this week, it's a pity we listeners miss the post broadcast chat. This is always of interest in the Newsletter, but M has plenty to say about other things worth a read. So what about this solution - record the chat with lapel/radio mikes and add it to the podcast of the show. Some programmes' podcasts are shorter than the original - why not make IOT's pods longer!

Robin Allott St Paul
I was pleasantly surprised by the manner in which the subject was developed, particularly the the importance (for St Paul and his successors) of the concept of original sin. No doubt the general level of depravity in his time would have been much the same as it is in modern society so the question of the nature and origin of original sin is still relevant. Perhaps one might consider a conflation of St Paul (and St Augustine) with Darwin. Original sin would then be seen as what has been necessary in human evolution for the survival of the fittest. Genes and brain structure have inevitably had to be selected for reproductive vigour and aggression. These remain fundamental in human psychology and sexual behaviour, even if they have been modified to some extent by language-based cultural advances in the functioning of human groupings. The churches and moralists over the ages have been struggling against the evolutionary drive, still very powerful as can be seenin the continuing remorseless growth of the world population (to 10,000 million).

St. Paul
I am very surprised that nothing in the discussion touched on Paul's "consenting" presence at the death of Stephen. He was killed (according to Acts) when he announced that he had seen Jesus "standing at God's right hand". Paul was a cheer-leader for the killers.It is not likely that Stephen's speech as we have it is recorded word for word; that was not the way of ancient historians (like Tacitus). But the account may well have been how Paul later remembered it, and so gave it to Luke. When Paul turned around from persecutor to "believer" it was this question of Jesus' real role which somehow changed his loyalties. I would have liked some discussion of the psychological and other elements likely to have underlain his "conversion"Ian Buist

Anth Paul and the "new religion"
Only a shallow knowledge of the Bible would suggest that the Jewish rabbi, Paul, propagated a different religion from that of his forefathers, or that his teachings differed from those of Christ who commissioned him. Paul said that he was persecuted for daring to believe literally in the promises made IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, and for daring to preach that the Messiah promised there had been revealed in Christ. If you base your argument on the fact that these promises were now, through Paul (and others), offered to the non-Jews, you must “blame” Peter, who was the first to be told not to call unclean what God Himself had cleaned (Acts 10). Indeed, you must go further and blame Christ Himself, who often alludes to the way Gentiles would benefit from the “crumbs that fall from the children’s table”, and will be present at the wedding feast whereas many of the original invitees would spurn the offer. Jesus goes so far as to explicitly refer to a “time of the Gentiles” which will precede the final denouement of history. It is just as useless to seek to drive a wedge between Christ and His chosen messenger as it is to try to rip the Old Testament out of the New. The testimony is one seamless garment : what God has joined together, let not political correctness - or the BBC, which often amounts to the same thing - try to put asunder.

Angie Gyani
Thank you for your programme on St. Paul. It was great to hear such a lively discussion on something so important to our history. Thanks again.

ST. PAUL AND HIS DYNAMIC ENTHUSIASM !!!
I enjoyed todays panel explaining the circumstances of St. Paul's Convertion to Christianity !!!I heard Helen Bond say that St. Paul thought that something was going to happen soon, about 20 - 30 years after Christ's death and resurrection !!!Helen Bond also said it was thought St.Paul was martyrd about 65 AD. !!!St.Paul was right, something did happen in 66AD. !!!GOD had the disciple whom Jesus loved, St. John write down The Book of Revelation, and in 66AD. visited TheHigh KING of Ireland, with it's lesser Kings, and explainedThe Book of Revelation to them, that was to become what is today British History !!!The High Priest of Jerusalem, Caiaphas( who rejected Jesus and oversaw HIS crucifixion), happened to be at The High King of Ireland's Court, when St. John( Ireland's first " St.Patrick " )visited with GOD'S Message of Revelation, and saw The Reverence Jesus's Disciple received. He probably gnashed his teeth, seeing Jesus's Message at The Right Hand of POWER(in Ireland) just like Jesus said : -Matthew 26 : 64 - 65." ... Hereafter shall ye(Caiaphas) see The Son of man sitting on the right hand of Power, and coming in the clouds(Irish mist)of heaven(British Isles). Then The High Priest rent his clothes ... " !!!GOD SAVE THE QUEEN.Sincerely,Veteran09.

Malcolm Wall Saul of Tarsis
I was so disappointed by the lack of rigour given to this subject, it seemed far more like a sermon than an intellectual investigation. To declare a source as authoritative because that is all we have and it says it is, is just too hilarious really. No other sources from the period make any mention of this cult's idol, albeit Bishop Eusabius tried to forge that infamous Josephus passage! There was no city of Nazareth at this time and the tales based upon it are therefore just that tales, to have this mythology talked about as history was uninspiring.Just to help the gullible types out; A true scripture from the supreme creator being would be crystal clear, internally coherent, portraying "creation" with absolute fidelity and flawless descriptions, a human pastiches of said would be opaque, ambiguous, factually incorrect about physical reality, full of self contradiction and seem to contain several conflicting voices. You'll get it soon I'm sure!

Janis Raishbrook St. Paul
Very enjoyable discussion but I'm disappointed that not more was said about resurrection, which was so central to St. Paul's theology.

Thomas Hudson: Criticism
I enjoyed your programme this week, but I feel it did lack a little in historical criticism; it is undoubtedly true that Paul is a huge figure in the history of Christianity, but I would agree with Rokewood below; the gospels as we have them are perhaps not the most reliable historical references.

Cameron Hawke-Smith/ St Paul
A good discussion - maybe there will be an opportunity to explore the extent to which St Paul distorted the teachings of Jesus? The experts stressed that he gave all his attention to the events of the crucifixion and resurrection and little to the moral teachings. Could it not be that he completely misunderstood what Jesus had preached, e.g. in interpreting the Kingdom of Heaven in terms of the physical End of the World? It has always seemed to me that the interpretation of the crucifixion as a 'sacrifice' was an ingenious (and powerful)piece of metaphysical manipulation of an event that must have caused massive disillusion to Jesus' disciples.

JB
Time now to give the brother of Jesus-James- a programme.The subject of this mornings-Paul-but was he an impostor? There is a broader picture.All be it not as safe and tidy as the one Paul gave the world.

Tony Rignall: Apostle Paul
Thanks for today's programme. I attended an evangelical church for over 10 years and in all that time never heard the teachings of St Paul so clearly, and understandably explained. Although I am no longer a 'Christian' in the accepted sense of the word the programme taught me a great deal about the faith I (thought) I once had.

St. Paul
Thank you for the program on St. Paul. I wanted to add something regarding original sin. As an Eastern Orthodox Christian, I do accept the condition of original sin. However, that does not mean inherited guilt. We believe that a person is guilty of only their own sin--this is in contrast to the Roman Catholic Church.

Richard Misson
The great Gnostic sages of the early second century (CE) called Paul 'the Great Apostle and honoured him as the primary inspiration for Gnostic Christianity. Valcntinus explains that Paul initiated the chosen few into the 'Deeper Mysteries' of Christianity which revealed a secret doctrine of God. These initiates had included Valcntinus' teacher Theudas, who had in turn initiated Valentinus himself.'Many Gnostic groups claimed Paul as their founding father and Gnostics calling themselves 'Paulicians' continued to flourish, despite persistent persecution from the Roman Church, until the end of the tenth century. Paul wrote his letters to churches in seven cities which are known to have been centres of Gnostic Christianity during the second century. These Christian communities were led by the Gnostic sage Marcion, for whom Paul was the only true apostle. One thing is for sure: if Paul really were as anti-Gnostic as the Literalists claim, then it is astounding how many Gnostic texts quote him or are actually attributed to him. The followers of Marcion even had a gospel which they claimed was written by Paul. The texts found at Nag Hammadi include The Prayer of the Apostle Paul and The Apocalypse of Paul. A scripture called The Ascent of Paul records the 'ineffable words, which it is not permissible for a man to speak' which Paul heard during his famous ascent to the third heaven alluded to by the apostle in his Letter to the Corinthians." Another text, called The Acts of Paul, describes Paul travelling with a companion called Thecla - a woman who conducted baptisms!''THE GENUINE PAUL?Who is the genuine Paul? Could he have been a Gnostic, as the Gnostics claimed? As we have already discussed, modern scholars now regard many of the letters attributed to Paul as forgeries. Of the 13 New Testament letters, only seven are now accepted as largely authentic.The so-called 'Pastoral' letters to Timothy and Titus are regarded as fakes by all but the most conservative of theologians. Computer studies have confirmed that the author of the Pastorals is definitely not the author of the letters to the Galatians, Romans and Corinthians, which are accepted as genuinely by Paul. The earliest collection of letters attributed to Paul does not contain the Pastorals. In fact, we do not even hear of the Pastorals at all until Irenaeus. They appear as a part of the Christian canon only after this time, always as a set, and are regularly dismissed by Christians of all persuasions as forgeries. Even the great orthodox propagandist Eusebius does not include them in his Bible.This is important, as it is only in the Pastorals that Paul is anti-Gnostic. Unlike the genuine Pauline letters, the Pastorals present him as an organizer of the Church, a mainstay of Church discipline and the unswerving antagonist of all heretics. He is made to condemn Gnostic myths as 'unhallowed old wives' tales and to recommend his followers 'not to meddle with the teachings and not to waste time on endless mythologies and genealogies, which lead to empty speculations'. Obviously by the end of the second century the view of Paul as a Gnostic teacher was a sufficient threat to motivate someone to create an indisputably Literalist Paul in response.This Paul is made to specifically advise:'Guard what has been handed down to you by fending off all the Godless prattle and contradictions of false "Gnosis", which some have adhered to, losing the way of the faith.He is also made to be authoritarian in enforcing the power of the Church hierarchy, writing, 'those who do go wrong should be publicly reproved, to give the others a scare.’ He particularly attacks 'Hymenaeus and Philetus', two Gnostic teachers who have 'wandered afield from the truth' and are teaching the Gnostic doctrine that 'our resurrection has already occurred although in his genuine letters Paul claims to be already 'resurrected' himself! And despite the fact that there was a widespread tradition that Paul travelled with a woman who baptised, he is also made to attack the Gnosti

David in Brussels: Paul indispensible for the Gosp
The aim of the New Testament canon is other than providing a complete history of evangelisation. Other sources exist despite deliberate, massive destruction of early books. (Envisage a few centuries of atheists like Mao or Stalin in charge of religion and history.) According to the first-century Clement of Rome, Paul preached in the ‘furthest limits of the West’ (this term generally refers to Britain rather than Spain). Tertullian and other writers affirm this. The historian Eusebius, in his early fourth-century, pre-Nicene book ‘Proof of the Gospel’, wrote that Paul, the 12 apostles, the 70 disciples of the Council and thousands of other first-century evangelists ‘took possession’ not only of the Roman empire, the Persian, Armenian, Parthian, Scythian, Indian and other empires but reached ‘the very ends of the earth’. He specifies directly the British Isles. Christianity gave the deathblow to classical paganism, nullified Roman imperial ideology and exposed the fallacies of Greek philosophy. The empire reacted with brute force with war in Britain, Judea and Parthia. Jerusalem was the centre for this worldwide evangelism, not Rome. It was the seat of all apostles and the setting of the martyrdom of many, including John the Baptist, Stephen, James the apostle and James, the brother of Jesus. Gibbon records that after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, the headquarters church moved beyond Judea to Pella. Eusebius lists the bishops of Jerusalem of the early centuries, starting with James, the brother of Jesus, followed by Symeon his paternal cousin. Roman pretensions only date from Constantine’s seizure of power when, after centuries of the empire’s religious persecution, ethnicide and ideological extermination, he mixed the dying pagan ideas in an overtly Christian State religion. ‘Let us have nothing in common with the despicable Jews,’ he wrote. This Roman entity continued to persecute those who resisted its propaganda, especially those who would fit Paul’s ideological profile, a Jew and a Christian with non-pagan, non-hellenistic, biblical theology, conversant in Hebrew. The indestructible message in Hebrew and Greek canon proved to be more important than any individual, whether Paul vs Nero, Arius vs Athenasius, Augustine, or later individuals like Erasmus, Luther, so-called 'rationalist' critics, and the neo-Romans, Stalin and Mao.

John, Paul of Tarsus
Jesus of Galilee becomes Christ after Paul’s teaching. We lose the historical andgain on the mythological. Where is Jesus the Hassidim teacher and healer?. Jesus never instituted the Eucharist as Paul claims. The eucharist is a symbol to Paul of the death of Jesus. Paul does not commend Jesus to his disciples as an admirable moral teacher, nor story teller, nor famed healer and miracle-worker. No, he is mythological,the Messiah, the Rock. Jesus can be raised again in the cup of blood, conqueror ofdeath. The Christ that died for our sins. Paul made clear if his followers were baptised in the death of Jesus they would rise again to life immortal. He exaggerates the number of people who saw the risen Christ, 500. Paul is the founder of the Christian religion-the offering of the body and blood of Christ, not Jesus. Paul was responsible for wresting the religion of Jesus from the Jews and making it available to the gentile world. What part does virtue and works play in the scheme of things? But God forgives. There is this conflict in Paul between Law and Grace. God’s grace pours outto all mankind not , he said, just to the virtuous. The hellenizing Jew overcomes the strict Pharisee. The mystic trumps the moralist. Due to man’s fallen nature and original sin men can only be saved through faith in the mercy of God. Since Jesusdied for sinners, a tremendous hope has come into the world. According to Paul forgiveness is possible through Christ. The gulf between the perfection of God and imperfection of man could never be bridged by rules. Jesus gave people not moralbetterment but glorious liberty, he reconciles God and man: “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself”. Seen through the eyes of faith Jesus is Christ:‘For now we see in a mirror darkly, but then face to face’. Publican rather than Pharisee. It was well brought out he was a great theologian and poet respecting his Jewish heritage ushering in a universal faith in a new covenant of all people throughoverthrowing Judaism. There’s no need to be converted to Judaism to believe.

Rabbi Y Y Rubinstein "Paul."
Firstly I am a contented listener to I O T. and sometimes BBC broadcaster. I feel the structure of the Paul programme missed a huge facet. What does the Judaism that Paul came from say about his life and work?A Pharisee is today the Orthodox Jewish tradition.The Talmud was heavily censored by the church but those parts tell a story alluded obliquely to in the Programme that he was in fact a Rabbi. He was, says the Talmud, charged by the Sanhedrin (The Jewish Supreme Court,of which he was a member) with infiltrating the new movement, seen as heretical and alter it so radically that it could no longer be confused with original Judaism.This explains so very much of who and what he did. A pity you did not have a Pharisee on the discussion to paint the picture of what he came from and an alternative version and a shame to have missed this view of the tale.

Sandy Raffan, St Paul
I thought Helen Bond was a real breath of fresh air on today's programme - she made St Paul a real human being. So much so that I stuck with the theology for much longer than if it had just been discussed by Melvyn and the two John's.

Rowland Nelken - St. Paul
Great discussion - very informative, but for this listener there was an enormous hole. Reference was made to the expectation of an imminent transformation, a parousia, a rapture of the righteous, as in the Epistle to the Thessalonians. St.Augustine's rationalisation of apocalyptic disappointment was also referred to.What was never mentioned was the continuing expectation of an imminent apocalypse, a battle of Armageddon, a rapture, a Day of Judgement. All these horror scenarios are given credibility, in large part through St. Paul's writings, bond as they are in the Holy Bible.Even St. Augustine had only put back the End of the World by a millennium or so. In 'The City of God' he states quite baldly that the world will end 7000 years after the Creation. By his calculations that was to occur in the 1650s. Yes, St. Paul created the structure of CHristendom; he spread it way beyond the Jewish world and laid foundations that would survive the eclipse of Rome.He was also instrumental in the darkest aspects of my childhood. I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness, and for them as for a range of other sects, the imminent End, the Rapture et al. were not first century quirks. They were (are) still to be expected. For anyone who venerates a Holy Book as the Word of the Lord, that is a perfectly sensible conclusion, absurd as it may seem in any other context.The expectation of a great transformation, an eschaton survived even the fading of CHristianity. Some European early 19th century communists were Christian and based their expectations of revolution on the 'New World' prophecies of St. Paul. Marx recycled the same myth but subsituted economic statistics for Divine Revelation...but that's another story.You can read of the connections between these stories (St. Paul, Marx and many others) in my forthcoming book 'Paradise Delayed'. I'll sign off by reiterating my main point. The Rapture, the Parousia, the End of Days, were mentioned. The continuing explosive power of these beliefs was ignored.Rowland Nelken - Nottingham

Es Will: Broadcast postscript
A broadcast postscript should be considered carefully, partly as a possible condensed mirror image of the programme and partly for a greater exposure of the themes, released by informality and unweighting of the material. The last aside, at the door, after consultation, is always worth regard.

john abrami Original sin: from today's
The old understanding of Original Sin is now outdated, now that it is clear(or should be clear) that the Genesis Story about Adam's disobedience is just that, a sacred story. To take it as fact does no good to anyone, least of all God's reputation with people who use the inteligence He gave them! It encaps thhe belief that the disorder in humans comes from ourselves, not God.It simply points to our condition.It is an inspired wonderful simple revealing bit of the Scriptures not about Adam. About us. About Every-woman-man. A mixture of good and bad, but invited to climb to the holiness of God Himself with his Son's help. Not something God can force on us. Something we have to co-operate in, to choose, with total commitment to bring about. Thanks Melvyn and in Our Time panel - Marvelous

Paul Everitt - Apostle Paul
Just like to say how much I enjoyed today's discussion about Paul. The great themes of his teaching, all have sinned, salvation only by grace through faith in Christ were well presented. So often the Christian faith is knocked in the media, it was refreshing to here a good well presented discussion. Well done BBC, Melvyn and guests!

Rokewood––Historicity and Paul
I enjoyed the discussion of St Paul very much this morning, particularly the skillful unfolding of Paul's theology by all three contributors. I was struck, however, by the naive attitude shown to the sources, which seemed quite blind to recent NT scholarship. Issues of dating, language and even factual incompatibilities make it very hard for us to rely on Acts or the Pastoral Epistles as valid guides to events in Paul's life. Acts seems a much later document than the discussion assumed (the link to 'Luke' for both Gospel and Acts is unknown until well into the 2nd century) and even the authenticity of Galatians is highly questionable (Galatians and Acts have quite different accounts of Paul's conversion, for example). A dimension of historical scepticism, from which sometimes NT discussions seem uniquely immune, would have enriched the programme.

Christine, Leicestershire
Thank you for the programme about Paul. I enjoyed learning more and was pleasantly surprised that it did not dive into liberal disclaimers. As a conservative Christian, I appreciated the various comments. Thank you.

Clive Durdle St Paul
I was very disappointed in your programme. You do not seem to have checked Britannica and the Jewish Encyclopedia about Pharisees - who were the radical anti slavery anti circumcision spirit of the law lot.Why no mention of the gnostic Paul, and that we probably have three Paul's, an original gnostic Pharisaic liberal Greek Jew, an edited catholicised one, and agreed works called by Paul but written by others.No discussion of Acts as a much later work to bring together factions.Is not the road to Damascus classic fiction when the reality is that Paul is grounded in well trodden Greek Jewish thinking - he uses the Septaguint - written in that Greek city Alexandria? His thinking about grace is a logical extension of Jewish thinking - a small step - not a revolution. His Christ is in the heavens!You have in In our Time covered Persia and Alexandria but somehow you do not see Judaism and its interesting "oriental cult" within its context.And finally have you never heard of Earl Doherty?

John Gaynard
What does your panel make of the claims Robert Eisenman makes about Paul, in books such as the "Damascus Covenant, for example that Paul was a member of Herod's family, that he manipulated the words and person of Peter in his struggle with James, brother of Jesus, for the control of the early Christians and that he also had a hand in James's death? Thanks for a great programme.

the whale
i enjoy the newsletter as much as the programs themselves.

s.g.k. whales
An answer to the question in this week's letter 'How does the great boom of a whale's signal go to one particular whale?'may be that all on its wavelength can hear it but one is more receptive to its purpose.Possibly everything exists in a medium of communication (ours being spatial) through which everything communicates reciprocally.

Graeme Cox - Whales
I don't know how you choose your subjects or came up with the idea of doing the whales, but this slightly unusual, non-form one was excellent !!!

colin milne - evolution.
Erratum - Consequential Evolution. " C.E.T.I " should read " S.E.T.I. ". Colin Milne.Location - Birkenhead Library.

Jennifer Wallace : The Whale
What an excellent programme! Whatever the topic, I come away from this programme pleasantly stunned by how much I've learnt, but there was something really special about this one. The clarity of each speaker's contribution was a delight to listen to and learn from. This programme hadn't had the hype that many of those related to Darwin's theory of evolution have had in this bicentenary year, yet I thought it was maybe the best I've seen or heard.

Tarquin Adolphus....Just a rant in favour of the g
Oh please bring back the pretentious and pontificating who speak only to the obscure narrow interest audience. Isn't that the exquisite beauty of this programme? I love hearing esoteric analysis and discussion of areas of history, physics, philosophy that I had never previously considered. Surely its crucial to hold on to pockets of media that are NOT BROAD BASED< NOT POPULIST, might even be quirky, eccentric, might be irrelevant to most of the mainstream audience...fantastic..let the mainsteam audience swim in the main stream but please allow a few of us to find channels, whirlpools and eddies that don't simply take us down river from A to B in the fastest most efficient current. This is truly innovative and astonishing radio..(OK OK already so I am Melvyn Bragg's mum) but not really...I just love its entirely unpredictable agenda, and the to hear the brainiacs corralled, steered, challenged by Mr Bragg to sum up matters of such detail and academic obsession processed to squeeze (not always comfortably) into the requirements of a Radio talk show format is a total and unusual delight All power to your elbow Melvyn even if one day it may evolve into a fluke.

Why not air the post-show discussion as well? Dan
I understand from the newsletter that the discussion usually carries on after the broadcast ends, sometimes over croissants, and I for one would love to hear that. Any chance you could have a 'Podcast Plus' if you like, for the avid amongst us? Thanks to all contributors are overdue as the show is one of the highlights of my week and has been for years.

Julian Dakowski
At last found the opportunity to listen back to the Siege of Vienna programme. As of Polish descent, I just wondered how much would actually be said of the Poles arriving to 'save the day'. My father [of course proudly bias] always said "They were offered 'the keys of the city' and when Sobieski was asked how could the city repay him, he simply said: 'Just feed my men, and water the horses'!" Alarmingly typical; although it was interesting to hear of the looting of the tents. What you all seemed to miss - even post comment - was the many reasons for success that lay behind the blindingly effective machine of the Polish cavalry [an officer of which my father was at out break of WWII] not least their "ANGEL WINGS" [a full mounted costume of which used to stand in the hall of my Aunt's family home]. It was the noise that they made at full gallop; the noise alone - like a howling wind - was enough to scare the living daylights. A bit more weight, and for that, excitement to the story... it did deserve it. Thank you for your consistently interesting programmes.

Pete - Vienna
I’m an American and I naturally can’t resist a little jibe at the English here :) Great show on Vienna and I learned a couple of things, but I found Magda’s comment below pretty amusing; not sure if she intended it to be funny in its pith but it was. When I was listening I was struck by the question that was something to the effect of what the English contribution was. The answer was a lot of praying in churches, and this was emphasized a couple of times. That appears to have been the extent of it. Then when we got to the Polish part -- where a group of what was made to sound like a small fraction of the 18k went charging with outdated equipment into a horde (I use the term for effect only) of 80-100k and driving them off the field -- it did feel under treated. Would have liked more facts. By the way, from this side I can tell you that Casimir Pulaski is considered the father of the US cavalry, aptly enough; and, according to the internet, could be urban myth, the bagel came about by a Viennese Jewish baker making it in honor of Sobieski to mimic the stirrup (apparently Sobieski was a horse fanatic). In fairness to the show though, it was more about the clash of cultures I suppose. Great piece in any case.

Brian Towers - Whales
re: Your question in the email about "how, in presumably crowded seas, does the whale's great boom of a signal go to a particular whale?"Many years ago I worked on military sonar projects for Plessey Marine Research Unit in Templecombe.What I learnt then was that sharp differences in water temperature can create the equivalent of speaking tubes or layers within the water.A sound created in such a layer will not escape the layer and can travel enormous distances depending on the frequency of the sound.It is likely that whales can communicate over 10's even 100's of miles in the right circumstances.

John Atkinson on grunts
I do remember reading a while ago that someone had recorded a series of 'grunts' from the deep ocean and deduced from their nature that something down there is very, very big indeed. I don't know any more, and have heard nothing further. Who knows something more?

Malcolm Chisholm - Ockham's Razor - A Modern Myth?
William Thorburn published an article in Mind 27 (1918), 345-353, convincingly demonstrating that Ockham's Razor is a modern myth. This is a very serious and extraordinarily well-researched paper that should be taken seriously. Apparently "Entia non sunt..." was invented in 1639 by John Ponce of Cork, and "Ockham's Razor" in 1852 by Sir William Hamilton. It seems that nothing about the rule can be attributed to Ockham himself. The entire paper is available on the internet at the Logic Museum, from which the above comments are largely taken.Malcolm Chisholm, Holmdel, NJ, USA

michael jenkins: paleontology and phylogeny
Dear in our time,i was very interested to listento your informative discussion on:the evolution of the whales,and, the living phylogeny of whales,with respect to the paleontology of:analysing the form of the skeletonsin the fossil record;specifically in this case:the ankle bone.I have a collie dog, a mammal,one of the fist things i noticedabout his skeleton,is that he, dogs,do not have collar boneslike we, humans, do.Since then, the questionhas always beenin the back of my mind:what living phylogeny of mammals(species, genera, orders, classes)are relatedwhen defined by:'having a collar bone' ?yours faithfully michael jenkins

Jon Beynon - Evolution of aquatic mammals
Great discussion on whales - but isn't it time you gave some attention to our species' possible brief adventure in the ocean. I mean of course the Aquatic Ape Theory - contentious I know but definitely worth consideration.

In Our Time - In The Green Room - - Malcolm Black
I love your account of the after programme discussion in the newsletter. But I keep on wishing I was there in the Green room. So why not? You could edit out the "I'll have a Kit Kat amd Earl Grey" comments and produce another great programme at little cost. If the conversation is sparse one week (is it ever?) you can just fill in with Melvyn's Newsletter. "Letter from Lord Bragg"? There's another great programme! Come on we need more Melvyn & "In Our Time" to have more first-rate serious listening that isn't about those flipping idiots in the lower house!

St Paul - question for panel
Dear Melvin-I'm interested in the theory of Simon Magus possibly being a code name for Paul. This would give a radical new perspective on the beginings of christianity.

colin milne - consequential evolution.
Deatrying to put a spanner in r Sir, Re: Consequential Evolution. """""""""""""""""""""""""""" I think that you and Prof. Jones are my Theory of Functionality with your programme about the regressive evolution of Wally. I have tried to convey that evolution has to have a ' drive ' - on Earth, it is the fact that it is Earth-Moon, and the imbalance provides the ' drive ' and makes the life forms functional. The " CETI " experiment should look for planets that have a moon - or some other driving mechanism. There is no need for a planet to evolve - it is evolved, and it could even ' think '. Our thinking is, possibly, just an exchange between stimulus and reaction ( similar to particle exchange } It is iteresting to compare the stages of birth with the stages of evolution. There is cell fusion, embryonic ' amniot ? }, and small creature. Some of the sea creatures resemble ' amniots '. The scientists can't see the functionality for the detail ! Yours etc., Colin P. MilneLocation - Birkenhead Library.

Carl Smith: Aquatic Ape Hypothesis
After listening to Melvin's recent show about whales and the thoughts of his guests I thought that In Our Time should really tackle the 'Aquatic Ape Hypothesis'. I guess it was because so many of the issues they spoke of skirted right along the edge of this theory and dealt with aquatic mammals. He should do it soon though while the main protagonist of this theory, Elain Morgan, is still alive (she is getting pretty old as I understand it).Thanks, Carl Smith

Dave (Lichfield, U.K. Midlands). The evolution of
Another terrific program. I have a background in biology, so I guess I was drawn to listen to it like a magnet to iron. Normally I will listen to I.O.T. filling or emptying the dishwasher or other mindless activities where I can 'do' and listen with some concentration. But with this I sat and took some notes, even though I will probably download the podcast and listen again later. It really 'turned me on', and I will now probably get some books out of the library.I do find Steve Jones better (well really very good indeed) when hes pressed for concise explanations: when he has lots of time he does seem to ramble a bit (sorry Steve). Pity we couldnt have listened to the follow up conversations.On a more general point, is there any chance that some of the programs might be put on CD, and for sale? Or have they been and I've missed it?

Paul - E-whales
Another unasked obvious question which a friend of mine has just raised. How, in presumably crowded seas, does the whale’s great boom of a signal go to a particular whale?Because that would be podcast.

Nathan - Whale Evolution
A welcome programme on evolution after week after week of historical topics. However this programme left me a little confused and disappointed. It seemed the contributors were skirting around the controversy in this area. During the discussion on the Artiodactyl ancestry of whales, the relationships between the various groups was not made clear. Melvyn Bragg failed to ask several questions I would have liked answered, such as whether Hippos are in fact Artiodactyls (I beleive not), and how we "know" that fossil whales like Pakicetus and Ambulocetus are relations of moern whales. A bit of back ground on the Ungulate groups and when they arose would have helped.As I understand it the molecular evidence, to some extent, disputes the fossil consensus that we were given at the start of the programme.Science programmes about cutting egde research should be completely open about the status of what they are telling us. In Ot Time sometimes talks as though everything were the indisputable (and indisputed) truth.

The Whale
Where was the warm blooded Leviathan ofthe deep,O Melvyn.when we have dissected it into molecular DNA? We spent so long on the hind limbs and their evolution inwards we forgot about the different kinds of mouth,toothed or baleen whales until the last two minutes!Although Steve Jones is excellent,he called the livingcreature a 'fossil'.Two million werekilled in the 20th century.The sonarsounds of the whale,the deep boom-boomare calls for companionship too.Theevolutionary mystery was well covered.We saw it is not a fish-it's tail-fluke moves up and down rather than side to side,it's also warm-blooded,the biggest earth animal,a mammal which breathes oxygen,not cold-blooded like fish.It's former frontlimbs turned into flippers to steer while the tail propels this magnificentbeast.I feel the whale's real mysterywas barely touched upon.Perhaps a little sprinkling of metaphysics intothe physical analysis,the whaleroads ofour ancestors,Jonah and the whale,evenMoby Dick's Great White Whale could have been touched upon.This was still asuperb programme,but could we not havea mixture of experts who are not so onenote in their outlook?

graham smetham - whales
Astonishing mythological nonsense. As far as I understand the materialist evolutionary perpsective the evolving happens due to complete non-intentional random mutations. An yet in this debate the intentional idiom was at the forefront. If you want to live in the sea better to evolve a 'tail fluke', ulinke those poor idiot seals who did not manage it. An imagine it those poor proto-whales condemed to use the vesitigial legs for 'copulation' while they wait to really get it on on the sea. As always materialist darwinian is ridiculous mythology. I've just written an in depth peice about this and I will shore more considered insights tomorrow or next day - photosynthesis showe that the secrets of evolution reside at the quantum level!

Mark: evolution of whales
What about the argument from design? Allowing Bill Amos' statement that whales "started thinking about developing sonar" to go unchallenged is scandalous. As likely as pigs thinking about developing wings. Yet no-one gainsaid him. Steve Jones jibes that "you can't have an argument with creationists; they just make squeaks - like a whale". But the programme would have benefited greatly from the creationist perspective - that whales were designed to be as they are. To have only one side of the argument represented is a boxer shadow-boxing. The ideas coming out in this programme need rigorous scrutiny, not chronyism. It's easy to win when there is no oppostion. Why not have both sides of the argument?

Phil - whale evolution
There are other evolutionists who dispute the role of ambulocetus, basilosaurus and pakicetus in the evolution of whales e.g Barbara Stahl. Pakicetus has been described by Thewisson as a land mammal. Fossil remains of these creatures is limited and their appearance leans much on imagination.

Chris N - Whales, conundrums & the you tube bank s
I tuned into whales expecting Moby Dick and relative boredom. I was entranced, informed and wanted the extra 15 minutes. This led to to thoughts of IOT and the South Bank Show confronting me with ideas and areas that I would not choose but appreciate being challenged. With the demise of the SBS due to budget I wonder if YouTube could be used as a place for even lower budget but still challenging SBS or IOT style programming.

Sinic - Evo. of whales.
If the contributors said much more than whales exist therefore they must have evolved then I never heard it.The religion of Natural Selection is so all encompassing that there exists nothing wrt life that it cannot describe.What's truth got to do with it ?

Brian Hughes - Whales
Another fine programme. Steve Jones is always a good contributor and the others also did well. It's reassuring to hear something that took a couple of million years to happen being described as "quick"! Puts waiting for the mortgage to be paid off into context...

Brian: The Whale; A History
At last In Our Time dispels the ‘Up Our Chuff’ soubriquet and presents a programme that is of relevance and general interest rather than the usual obscure narrow interest programme that seems to be a vehicle for solely for pretentious pontificating.

NixinKome : Seaborne mammals
Sir, I was only listening to this morning's programme [210509] with one ear initially. That changed.I also thought that whales' diet was of plankton and krill, harvested in a dredging manner. To hear that squid at depths are another part of their diet surprised me and made sense in terms of the diversity of life at the same hearing. That whales target and possibly stun their prey was another revelation.I wonder whether studies of global warming take into account the effects on squid.I also wonder if the incidences of self beached schools/pods of whales and dolphins has to do with their intolerance to man-created sound pollution of the oceans.Respect,N.

WHALES
excellent programme. i was hoping that you would compare the evolution of whales with the path from fish to land creatures. for example whales may not have developed gills because they had a choice of air and water. land creatures had to develop lungs because there was no water (on a constant basis).keep up the great work!ed

The Whale
Today's discussion was, as ever, fascinating but I think the show missed a trick in confining itself to a evolutionary overview of the history of the whale. A tour of the role of the whale in culture might have been more enjoyable.The whale has always been portrayed as an alluring and mysterious creature in literature and art forming an interface between our humanity and the darkness of the deep. I think maybe this would have been a really interesting perspective to explore.Nevermind though, it is my Birthday today and I am feeling rather forgiving of my favourite radio programme. Keep up the good work.Incidentally, does anyone know whetehris it possible to insert/use html tags in message board postings in order to separate them into paragraphs?

Douglas Dwyer Re : Whale sonar
My background in sonar leads me to believe that the calcium lumps (external features) serve to give identity to individual whales when illuminated by whale sonar, The body of a whale would be otherwise semi transparent except for bones.

Hippopotamus
Hippopotamus is derived from the Greek (for river horse) and the plural would be hippopotomoi, not hippopotomae (which would suggest it came from the Latin). Try Hippopotamuses for the plural in English.

John - General
Having very recently found your archive, my thanks for retaining it and allowing my brain to get re-accustomed to high quality, informative conversation. An increasingly rare commodity in the media in particular, and the world in general. Currently I am re-visiting your Socratic dialogue.

Tim Askew - praise!
One of the best programmes on Radio 4 and hope very much it continues. Great programme concept (whoever thought it up) and thoroughly enjoyable. Radio 4 provides a fantastic service and is really the jewel in the BBC crown by a huge margin.

Mark : postmodern angle
Mr Bragg,re. Daniel's comment in this column:"I've been getting the feeling that the programme is stuck in the same realm of topics, getting narrower and narrower with time rather than broader. It's as if you run out of fresh ideas and chose to pursue topics similar to the ones already discussed or some aspects of them in more detail, instead of looking for them "outside the box"."Daniel was saying that the programme is a bit blinkered, pursuing the same kinds of topics and angles. Perhaps a paradigm shift is into post-modernism would spice things up a bit. Postmodernism is summarised by the French philosopher François Lyotard as “incredulity towards metanarratives”. A metanarrative, he describes as an “overarching story” about life. Being postmodern means taking something of a subversive view of the discourses with which a culture talks about itself. For example the postmodern theorist Foucault reinterpreted the discourse of meritocracy by reversing the adage that “Knowledge is power” with “Power is knowledge”. The forerunner of much postmoren theory, Jaques Derrida, showed how stories can be deconstructed.In short, taking a postmodern angle is about critiquing whatever sets itself up as absolute truth.I note that this Thurday’s programme is on the evolution of the whale. A fantastic opportunity to try a radical postmodern approach.

The measurment problem in Physics
An excellent programme one I thoroughly enjoyed, time either flew or stopped I was totally immersed in wavefuctions and thinking about that poor cat stuck in limbo. What I would like to have seen is a panelist who could explore the role that Mind/Consciousness plays in all of this. Two people come into mind here, Amit Goswami Physicist and authour of the book The Self Aware Universe, who argues that Consciousness not Matter is the primary stuff of the universe. And the American Philosopher Ken Wilber who is suitably qualified to talk about the Mystical implcations that stem from the findings of current Quantum Physics. Wilber's book Quantum Questions is a real treasure trove and should be on everyone's bookself. He collected the Mystical Essays of Einstein, Eddington, Dirac et al. And how many people out there are even aware that these great Scientists even wrote such words of wonder. From my experience of participating in physics forums around the net, not that many.What about a follow up Programme Lord M it would be great!Tom Allen

John Byrne-future programme suggestion
Following Stephen Dee's example of suggesting a future programme I think the life and works of Erasmus would make for a very interesting programme.

Elizabeth Balsom Siege of Vienna
When I visit my old penfriend in Vienna we often drive over to Perchtholdsdorf for coffee and a stroll around. We usually pass the wall bearing a plaque commemorating the 1683 siege, so it's probably not all that hard to understand Austria's stance on Turkey and Turkey joining the EU. Heavens above, I'm from Plymouth and still remember the Spanish Armada! And I recall my friend's father telling me 40 odd years ago that Metternich had said the Balkans began at Schwechat. It was an interesting and illuminating programme.

Mark Bladon. Generic Request
Mr Bragg - I enjoy In Our Time enormously, on the podcast. I live in Melbourne and listen to it walking along the banks of the Yarra River, from time to time risking life and limb from the cyclists, when the topic demands more thorough attention. I've been listening for a couple of years now and know the summer break will be coming up shortly... can I make a suggestion on that? As I say, I listen on the podcast, on the move, and accordingly can't make use of the fine option to listen to older programmes as the cord for my PC doesnt stretch that far. During the summer break, peraps you could "re-podcast" some of those older programmes? This would allow us to keep our weekly dose of In Our Time during a period which - in Melbourne, at least - could use some enlivening. (alternatively, if you could let us download the old episodes I could save them for when I'm taking the walking cure...?) Whether you can help with that or not I appreciate the programme, enjoy it enormously and look forward to it every week Thanks Mark Bladon

magda - the siege of Vienna
I am really disappointed with the last show. The role of Polish army was diminished. It would be much better for Poland if our King had stayed at home and just pray for Austrians.

general -
'In Our Time' is a valuable tool to anyone with an interest in research/life etc.. I notice that there has been a change in other programmes re. the period of time you can access 'listen again'. I use this Archive facility many times, and recommend it to both students and colleagues. Please please keep this I.O.T archive open. It's a fantastic resource.

Stephen Dee - suggested subjects for future progra
HelloI have been inspired by your marvellous programme since I came to live in the UK five years ago.I am not sure whether you accept unsolicited suggestions for programme subjects, but it occurs to me that if I have the slightest of criticisms it is that the programme tends to deal with 'old world' subject matter. As a New Zealander I believe that there are some amazing stories to tell about the New World. For example, the story of the first voyages of Europeans to the South Pacific and the development of contact with indigenous peoples is extremely interesting - I suggest that you have a look at Anne Salmond's great book 'Two Worlds: First Meetings Between Maori and Europeans 1642-1772' as a starter.Secondly, the history of the 19th century 'Maori' Wars is extraordinary - the Maori were never actually defeated in battle by the British armies, and they proved themselves to be brilliant tacticians and innovators, virtually inventing some of the modern styles of warfare (eg guerilla) that are still effective today in struggles between indigenous populations and vastly superior invading forces (eg Vietnam, Iraq). You could read James Belich's fascinating history 'The New Zealand Wars' to find out more.Finally, the story of the Maori prophet Te Whiti and his community at Parihaka, is the story of the invention of passive political resistance, as taken up more famously sixty years or so later by Gandhi. There are a number of books on this subject and a Google search will lead you to them.I hope my suggestions may be of some use.With thanks for readingYoursStephen Dee

Robert - The Battle of Vienna
Polish lancers might seem outdated from the point of view of infantry-based Western warfare, but in the vast expanses of Eastern Europe it was cavalry that ruled the battlefields throughout the 17th century. Polish lancers (or rather winged hussars) proved victorious against numerically superior Swedes in 1605 (Battle of Kircholm), Muscovites in 1610 (Battle of Klushino), Cossacks and Tatars in 1651 (Battle of Berestechko), Turks themselves in 1673 (Battle of Khotyn), and many others. Their tactics and strategy were perfected for battling the Asian-style forces, but they proved effective against Western-style warfare as well. So it wasn't merely the fact that the Turkish soldiers were demoralized that accounts for the success of the Polish charge.I do hope there'll be more programmes on Eastern Europe. So far it has been repeatedly and undeservedly neglected, although it's a fascinatng mix of Europe and Asia, with its cultural, ethnic and religious diversity, and a great deal of twists and turns of history.

Peter Bolt :Seige of Vienna
The Sultan always had to take into account the need to employ and finance his legendary Janissaries mercenary soldiers.Containing at one time it is said Saxon "Karls" fleeing after the Battle of Hastings. The real villian was his brother in lawthe Grand Vizier "Black Mustafa" who openly boasted he would "stable his horses in St Peters", and he had a lot of horses.It should also be added that The Hapsburgs were not even remotely grateful to the Poles for their vital help.

Nick Stow, programme of The Seige of Vienna
Good to know there are still some who can handle their libation and loquation simultaneously and with facility. Cheers Melvin.

Mariusz from Poland - on future programmes
As we are entering the 20th years commemoration of gradual end of communism - this might be a nice subject for a programme, but please do not forget about Poland this time, as here was created the first truly independent mass organization in Eastern camp - labour union Solidarity, the first independent elections in eastern bloc - on 4th June 1989, etc.

Mariusz from Poland. - The Siege of Vienna
Being from Poland I am realy dissapointed by the last show. Polish role was dimisnihed, quite unnecessarily. It seems as if Turkish army colappsed itself, and the truth is that the impact of charging winged hussars on infantry morale was massive. Winged hussars might have seem outdated for Westernes, but were realy effective in the wars Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth waged against Turkey. Furthermore, the fame of Polish King John III Sobieski among ordinary Ottoman troops was something no other leader in Western Europe could replicated. The simple rumour that the Lion of Lechistan is on the field with his best units must have put fear in the hearts of Turks. And it was not very easy decission to go to relieve Vienna, as Polish-Austrian relations werent particularly good, Austria schemed against Poland from time to time - and later repaid us handsomely taking part in the partitions...I would be realy interested in a programme focused on Poland - be it noble democracy, military camapigns, unique sarmatian culuture, long-term lost conflict with Russia, being a beacon of Western culture in the East etc. - but maybe finding three scholars specializing in the subject may be difficult.

Peter Household - Siege of Vienna
Was fascinated to hear that the Sultan felt he had inherited the mantle of the Roman Empire, and so assumed the Byzantine view that the Holy Roman Emperors were illegitimate. Anyone got any insights on this? Would like to hear more.peterhousehold@yahoo.co.uk

Gill - The Siege of Vienna
Very interesting programme as usual, particularly for me as my U3A group studied this area last year. In my opinion In Our Time is the best programme ever thought up and I turn to the archives again and again when there's "nothing on the telly", which is frequently!

Siegeofvienna
The siege of Vienna is significant because it relates to an important theme in European history: its relationship with the Islamic world. Vienna was regarded at the time as the "frontier" against the Islamic world. So it was important that the Ottamons be defeated in the siege. To some extent, this thinking still exists, and is seen for example in the debates around whether or not to accept Turkey as a member of the EU.

David Barnett, Ph.D. - Seige of Vienna

War is very costly, and vast as the Ottoman empire was, the state was perennially short of money from the 17th Century onwards. The failure of its investment in this war only made matters worse. The Ottoman state used a tax farming system, the abuse of which has left its scars on the Middle East to this day.

In the Levant [i.e. today's Lebanon, Syria Israel etc.], for example, the Effendi [wealthy landowner] contracted to pay the sultan a certain sum. The effendi then dunned his fellahin [tenant farmers] for funds. Naturally the fellah did not have cash, so would pledge his crop to pay the "debt".

Periodically, the burden would get too much to bear and the fellah would move out to escape [this kind of "bankruptcy" plagued the last centuries of the Western Roman empire too]. Sometimes he would take up residence on a plot vacated by another fellah. But the net result was a very short term perspective, low productivity and, ultimately, a fall in population.

The mid to late 19th century saw an upsurge of economic activity in Southern Syria [today's Israel]. The fellah now found he could earn cash by working for or trading with Jews. It is estimated that for every Jewish immigrant to an area, 10 felahin could be liberated from the cycle of debt to and dependance on the effendi.

Naturally, the effendi did not like it. They persuaded the Sultan to ban land sales to Jews, but too many effendi defied the law for a good profit. The next trick was to play the race card. In many respects, today's Arab-Israeli conflict has at its root the desire of the Arab elite to continue to exploit the Arab masses. If so, no political formula can solve.

The history of taxation and taxation as a driver of history would make a fascinating "In Our Time" subject.

Brian Turner - The Siege of Vienna
Fascinating - not least because I was a contemporary of Andrew Wheatcroft at Christs in the early 1960s!Busbecq, the Imperial ambassador resident in Constantinople at some time in the 16th century, stressed the importance of rice & camels to the Ottoman success, writing:'There are two things from which, in my opinion, the Turks derive the greatest advantage and profit, rice among cereals and camels among beasts of burden; both are admirably adapted to the distant campaigns which they wage. Rice keeps well and provides a wholesome food, a little of which suffices to feed a large number. Camels can carry very heavy burdens, endure hunger and thirst, and require very little attention'.Obviously not an explanation foir defeat in 1683 but a help in explaining how they arrived at the gates of Vienna.

Kate- Proposal for show
The destruction of Smyrna in 1922 would make an interesting programme. There are many interesting parts to this peice of history including the rise of Ataturk, the pivitol roles of Britian, France, Italy and America, the personality of Venizelos, the importance of Smyrna as a city before the destruction, the widely disputed cause of the fires, the following exchange of the Greek and Turkish population (giving birth to the modern day Athens) and how it still affects thousands of people across Greece and Turkey today. This was a major catastrophe and very influential event in modern Greek/Turkish history and yet we don't here anything about it.

Keith - In Our Time.
Thank you BBC. Thank you Melvyn. This is the ONLY programme on radio to which I will listen with undivided attention.If the BBC would take to heart the underlying message exhibited by this programme of how to inform and entertain then we would have many more.The most important question, for me, to ask of historians is "What was it like?" This seems to be the very question which Mr Bragg unfailingly manages to ask.It's a gem.

Peter Craven: The Siege of Vienna
The Siege of Vienna is generally accepted as taking place in 1529, whilst what occurred 1623 is known as the Battle of Vienna

Andrew - Future Programme Suggestion: Krishnamurti
I would love to hear an In Our Time on the life and philosophies of Jiddu Krishnamurti.I find his writings (and oratory) strangely compelling, but, by the way of a confession, rather elusive.It would be tremendous to hear 'the experts' discuss the work of this enigmatic figure.

The bicycle
Might I second the call for a programme on the bicycle. Not many people know that a strong claim for inventing the biycle goes to the Byzantine Emperor Athanasius III who developed a cavalry brigade mounted on movable vehicles peddled by slaves. It was known by those that faced its terrfying might as the 'iron cavalry' (ironius cavalcadius in the Latin) but was not as effective as it might have been due to the emperiors insistence on octagonal wheels for religions reasons. ON one ocassion the entire cavalry got stuck in a particularly large rut in the Sahara desert and was massacred to a man by marauding Berber tribesmen.

Anselmo - the bike
I believe that someone else has suggested this a while ago and I have been waited at my wireless for it to come but there has still been no programme on the bicycle and in particular the role of Baron Karl von Drais. Come on Melvyn and the team, time to saddle up and get into gear for what would be a fascinating programme - keep up the good work Anselmo

seth "Magna Carta in America"
In December 1641, after 4 years of delay and debate "The Liberties of the Massachusetts Collonie in New England" was enacted. Defending its religious exclusionary policies, in 1646 Winthrop et.al. compared the Bay "Fundamentalls" with the Magna Carta and English common law respecting its formidable guarantees of liberty and due process, while arguing for the colony's right to set the standard for participation in governance in open challenge to Anglicans, Presbyterians, Anabaptists and Parliament alike.

Dave .....Magna Carta
Trivially there was an ode by Stanley Holloway (him of Albert and the Lion, which went“It was due to that Magna CartaThe barons signed that of oldThat means that in England we do, as we likeAs long as we do as we’re told"More seriously it was Magna Carta, which gave us habeus corpus.This was crucial in the 18th century case of James Somersett, an escaped slave. His owner wanted him back, It was decreed that slavery was illegal in England due to habeus corpus.It took a long time for the slave trade to be abolished and slavery still existed in the colonies. Indeed the was part of the process which led to the American declaration of independence. A colony based on slavery and the genocide of the Indians could see the way the wind was blowing.I want a programme on great brainwashimgs of history. For example last year’s stuff about the First World War. 90 years on free mags in the Guardian etc,So why do some war memorials say 1914-1919? And who was at the bedside of Victoria Saxe Coburg Gotha as she died? Who bombed the Greeks who had been fighting the Germans 1946? Who rearmed Japonese prisoners of war in Vietnam? Who gave the Taliban stinger missiles and then offered to buy them back? Many other examples. But I have strayed from the point enough for now

Magna Carta
Was it just me or were there embarassing pauses this week? It was as though the "experts" had run out of things to say..

Jonathan re Magna Carta
Again, as ever, brilliant and fascinating. Simply the best programme on air - anywhere. But three mediaeval historians ... where were the lawyers? We heard a little, but perhaps we might have heard some more about the relevance to and impact on the common law of our days and its influence on the law in other lands? One of your American listeners suggested something on the influence of English law on US law. Perhaps I might suggest as a future topic: the development of the Norman and English Common Law, and if there is time left (always a problem on your programme, the wide scope - and why it is so good!), its and influence on other countries and contrast and comparison with Roman and civil-code jurisdictions. Just a suggestion...

Andrew-Magna Carta
As Tony Hancock once declaimed, "What aboutMagna Carta, did she die in vain!"

R Hastings on Magna Carta
I was curious as to why there seemed to be very little regard to the effect that Richard 1, John's elder brother and largely absentee predecessor sovereign, had on Johns future attitude's and general behaviour. It seems obvious that he felt personally, somewhat of an inferior to Richard, given that he conspired to and committed treason against him during Richard's imprisonment whilst returning from the crusades, for which he was benignly forgiven. It would seem to me to be quite relevant that the dynamic between these brothers would have been a obvious root cause for Johns supposedly ugly behaviour and bad reputation.

John - Magna Carta
The King’s will could be bound by law he didn’t just have a divine right to rule. There was now the idea of the consent of his subjects. The Magna Carta laid down what the barons took to be the recognised and fundamental principles for the government of the realm and bound king and baron’s alike to maintain them. No man should be punished without fair trial, that ancient liberties generally should be preserved, and that no demands should be made by an overlord to his vassal( other than those recognised) without the sanction of the great council of the realm. King John had lost God’s favour in the eyes of the barons due to his losses of money and battles and his unjust treatment of the barons through extortionate taxes and seizure of lands. Clause 61, allowing 25 barons to seize power from the king, was later dropped and the king had reneged on it prior to dying backed by the Pope. Feudal monarchs who like Johnacquired a reputation for injustice, always found themselves confronted by feudal rebellion. Phillip of France on the other hand cultivated a reputation of justice towards his vassals. Johndid not inspire confidence in his troops and therefore lost Normandy.With his victory at the Battle of Bouvines, Phillip gained the centre ground in Europe and with this proof of John’s wickedness the baron’s revolt forced John to grant themMagna Carta. Stephen Langton, the Pope’s appointee as the Archbishop of Canterbury (opposed by John to his and England’s cost), gets a good deal for the Church, as the reconciler between the barons and the king, set out the Magna Carta binding the king to the law of God. Habeus Corpus, innocent until proved guilty and trial by jury are all important practices that are offshoots of the charter. IOT broughtup the way this was used as opposition to the king in the English Civil War. That it also implies the citizen hasprotection against his government we should also remember in these times with the erosion of civil liberties on behalf of security.This is historynever more worthy of remembrance than now.

Doug Tarnopol, Proposal for a Show
I looked and didn't see anything on Oscar Wilde. Would love to hear a show devoted to him!Best, Doug

Magna Carter
An instructive discussion which leaves me wondering whether the timing has anything to do with the state and its present high handedness with civil liberties. Perhaps now Melvyn Bragg is pulling out of TV he will have more time to engage with these issues? Dona

Magna Carta
I was disappoined that Alexander II of scotland never got a mention. After all it was his support of the barons, he marched his army into England, helped capture London and then marched his army to dover to meet up with the french Dauphin. Hisactions in support of the Barons forced John to concede to the will of the Barons.

Magna Carta
I was disappoined that Alexander II of scotland never got a mention. After all it was his support of the barons, he marched his army into England, helped capture London and then marched his army to dover to meet up with the french Dauphin. Hisactions in support of the Barons forced John to concede to the will of the Barons.

Steve "Magna Carta"
I loved this weeks' programme and found it really interesting. The subjects of Magna Carta and King John are from such a long time ago, yet they compel us still. For those interested, a light dramatisation of the events at Runnymede can be found on www.shortbreadstories.com (Dangerous to Know).

Henry VIII and the Reformation
It would be great to have an In Our Time on Henry VIII and his religious ideas, both Catholic and Protestant, as it is 500 years since his acsession.John Wigginton

an absence of any female voice!
where are the women today?

The Vacuum of Space
I love this subject though I find that it is immersed in so much speculativeenergy that there are no goalposts orparameters by which to measure it.We know Einstein refined Newton's ideas ofspace and time into space-time.We now know much of Einstein is now invalid ashe posited a cosmological constant inhis General Theory of Relativity for astatic universe.However this was still thought to be usable by generating terms like "dark matter

the vacuum of space
Avid listener, 1st comment. Love history not so much science but the team use of analogy was excellent. I understood the programme.BBC flagship series {incl TV). Only criticism, it's not long enough!!!

constants in nature
I think that people who own and use dishwashers possibly miss out....all my interesting thinking seems to happen as I'm washing pots and gazing at the garden. Rather 'zen' hey.(I'd advise anybody to use words like 'natural' or 'wild' when describing their patch as it affords great license and a certain inner relaxation). Anyway, this morning my brain began pondering the J.W. Dunne quotation I submit yesterday. As I thought about the chicken and egg of mathematical structure and nature (anthropic logic would indicate towards maths coming first...but then what of concept?) Anyway, I arrived at the phenomenon of constants. So I'm wondering what the cutting edge folk are finding out about how these constants have formed and stabilized and whether they are actually relative and adaptive or unchanging? I'd be really interested in a programme on this pivotal subject if you haven't already done one. (Incidentally,I've got real player but simply can't access the archives for some reason...anyone had a similar problem and solved it?). Best wishes.

Ben - Vacuum - Simply An Observation
Your science episodes that flirt with philosophy generate so much enthusiastic commentary and thought. The feedback is staggering. I celebrate with Melvyn, and with the entire I.O.T team, and the contributors the fun this show is to listen to and it's educational value for the layperson, University Student, the teacher, and even professional scientist. .....And Yes, of course I'm a fan!An Aside...I too think Keith Ward would be very good on the show.Many Thanks, and Good fun!...Ben.

Peter Jackson
Astonishing comment quality! Tom, Akira, James, Dennis and 'no name', better than the panelists!! Alan in particular - max speed of light (ALL wave energy) a function of the field,- though the quantum 'mass deficiency' (force of the A bomb) bonding force between particles is probably what actually 'limits' it; gluons can't keep particles stuck together beyond that speed. Alone they become just dark energy again. And Trish, Lovely words but I'm afraid the currency of original conceptual thought in physics has crashed. Sad for physics and the human race.Ian; Don't try to think about what's outside the universe yet, we need to get what's IN it right first! Good thinking about US expanding too, but the theory is the dark energy pool is being fed and spreading out, getting bigger 'than it was'. But that theory is yet another paradox - and don't get me on to the Lorenz transformation!. The fact is the MAJORITY have noticed the issue with kings new clothes! The ether DOES exist, ..but it can't. There IS an answer to Relativity working with Quantum Theory, solving the key paradoxes, but apparently the moment you work it out you become mad and no-one in physics wants to speak to you or even read it!!Ohh! last point; Dennis - dark matter is VERY observable and observed, (see galctic halo's etc.) and is 'known' to make up between 25% and 90% of the universe! Everyone knows there's a lot seriously wrong with physics, but no-one want to know the answer! (Or if you do just ask).

A quotation with general relevance....
From the introduction to J.W. Dunne's 'The Serial Universe': 'The men who - little guessing the magnitude of their adventure - set out upon the earliest attempts to understand the world in which we live....had opened a door - closed till then - in the human mind; and they saw, in a first, dazzling vista, the tremendous powers of abstract reasoning with which Man, all unsuspecting, had been equipped. They had peered behind Nature's mask of happy anarchy; and they stared upon Order - portentous and unassailable. But the strangest discovery was that this orderliness in Nature, and this intelligence in Man, seemed to have been specially created to play partners in a kind of cosmic cotillion of rationality. Mind made laws of reason; Nature obeyed them.' (Dunne also wrote 'An Experiment with Time'). Best wishes.

Q 27 Vacuum physics
Physicists have estimates for the various half-lives of radioactive isotopes. What is the estimated haf-life of universal mass (before it all "vanishes" into the various black holes scattered through the universe)?5 million years. 50 x 10exp50 years.

Gary on The Vacuum ...
I found the chronological treatment of this topic to be suboptimal. The really interesting part of the discussion concerns the open questions; discussing them near the end left to little time to do them justice. I would prefer starting with the open questions, then bringing in relevant history.Thanks for making the programme, it was very interesting anyway.

Melvyn's ps on faith etc.
These may be of interest: 1. The word 'fohat' which Einstein would almost certainly have been familiar with as (according to his niece) he kept a well thumbed copy of Blavatsky's 'Secret Doctrine' by him. 2. The delightful book 'The Boy Who Saw True' which is the enchantingly naive diary of a victorian boy born with natural clairvoyance. His widow felt it should be made available to the public so, before his death, her husband agreed, on the proviso that she wait until several years after his demise and publish it anonymously. Skepticism is not impossible but more difficult with this book because the old adage 'Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings...' is touchingly present in the extended empiricism documented in this child's jottings. It's both easy and entertaining to read but could induce resistance in those who hold rigid beliefs. Can't recommend it highly enough - especially the visit to his aunt's church in which he unwittingly describes seeing something relating to 'light' which, 'though I'm not a 'church goer', I find utterly profound. 3. A quote: "Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which has the grander view?" Victor Hugo. Best wishes to all - Jane.

John Rowlands "The Vacuum of Space"
An excellent programme that was very informative. It rekindled my interest in cosmology. I am now following up the work of the three scientists that participated in the disscusion. I also downloaded the podcast to listen to it again. Well done Mevyn.

Julia "Nothing"
I loved this weeks' programme and had been looking forward to it. Many thanks. I'm no scientist but had a while ago come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as nothing - I thought your programme proved me right! The Big Bang sounds so like a massive Super Nova - surely the birth of a universe means a "parent" and many other universes, just like the stars. So (to sum up) no nothing, lots of tiny, unseen things and dust, lots of waves, lots of massive bodies in eternal universes therefore no nothing therefore no creator!?

John- Is the posting system working?
Not a single post has been added for 4 days. Will IOT please edit and update the have your say page with new posts.It would be good to read feedback and thoughts on the latest program. Thank you and Very Best.John.

Life in a vacuum Notnef
Reference this observer mentioned in the above programme in a new version of Einstein's thought experiment, flying at the speed of light and carrying his mirror. Presumably he's in space, also in a life support machine or suit. But hang on, this is Einstein's own theory we are trying to prove in that he will not be able to see his image in the mirror. And Einstein's own view of events at light speed are that squashed space time has to happen. So, the observer, his mirror and his space craft ( unless it's one of those weird quantum ones,) will break into Humpty Dumpty pieces never to be put back together again. So, yes he won't be able to see his mirror because the poor soul will be completely vapourised. Perhaps he should take his chance as the thought surveyor on Einstein's thought railway with its speeding trains and flashes of occasional lightning. It's tough being an Einstein observer.

Violet - Space
The programme was interesting and provoked much thought. But seemed to go five mile to get two. A real one around the block. The concept of space and where we are in it and how it and we are structured and are all part of the same building blocks seems a difficult concept to imagine even for the 'experts'Individuals live their lives and do not contemplate the topic, yet time and space are relative to the very existence of the individual.The Museum of Photgraphy in Bradford gives an example of this via showing a picture of space and then focusing down to the photon, via the solar system the planets the earth,human beings, etc. A practical example which illustrates the problem very well.

Robin Allott Vacuum
A very difficult subject which has raised problems for 2500 years so it’s a bit much to hope to tackle it in 45 minutes – despite the heroic efforts of the participants. Long before Aristotle, Parmenides dealt precisely with the question of the void, the vacuum. His famous verses argued very clearly that it was nonsense to think that there can be nothing, that something called nothing can actually exist, that there can be space with nothing in it or that matter can emerge out of nothing or disappear into nothing. What Michelson and Morley demonstrated to their and others’ satisfaction was that an ether carrying light waves was not apparent in terms of the particular experimental method they used. The problem is as much a philosophical one (Kant is relevant) as one for physicists – who now seem to have arrived back at the idea of a plenum but updated in terms of quantum mechanics. Bohm dealt with this (as well as the dual/particle wave conundrum) rather well in terms of the material object, from the electron to the supernova, not as isolated objects or waves travelling through space but as patterns being instantiated from moment to moment in the plenum; this makes possible a quite different understanding of the results of the Michelson/Morley experiment. The main impression left by the discussion was how many major puzzles physicists and cosmologists are still wrestling with – including anti-gravity, dark energy, dark matter and cosmological inflation. Perhaps what is needed is a rethinking of some of the central concepts, of what we mean by matter or by objects and not least how we should understand gravity. Perhaps gravity after all is not an attractive but a repulsive force? Maybe Newton should not have assumed that the apple was falling as a result of the attraction of the earth but seen the apple as being pushed towards the earth by the repulsive pressures exerted by the rest of the universe, a sort of visual illusion similar to the familiar example of the train in apparent movement. Then cosmological inflation would be an understandable result of this re-interpretation of gravity.

keith farman - latest programme
why doesn't the 'send this page to a friend' work?

Vacuum of Space
The assertion that that only a few things would be contained in a cubic meter of space is surely wrong. At any instant the cubic meter would have photons of light from every star in the visible universe passing through it, travelling in all directions. Dennis Yee

Michael Moorcock Multiverse
In the past I've tended to stay out of discussions concerning the multiverse, but having read and heard so much over the past forty eight years or so I felt, for the record, I'd like to mention my invention of this word in a pretty awful SF novel written in 1961 (when I was 21) where I applied it specifically to the idea of an infinity of worlds, of universes nesting within universes. The book, which also suggested a fresh theory explaining certain anomalies in existing space-time theories, and suggested the existence of 'black holes' is probably the worst book I ever wrote, but is the foundation of much of my later, more sophisicated work, both scientific and literary. The word has entered the language through a variety of forms from fiction to films, role-playing games and comics as well as the scientific community and, while it was used earlier in different contexts by William James and John Cowper Powys, it was in its most common current useage that I created it. Perhaps a pulp sf magazine isn't the most respectable source for such ideas, but neither of course was it for Arthur Clarke when he promoted the notion of the communications satellite which enabled me, happily, to hear the programme on my computer here in Texas last Thursdsay.

Trish : Vacuum of space
Thank you, thank you, thank you - for another programme on the wonder of the quantum universe. The more I hear, and read, about the mysteries of physics the more I find myself filled with wonder - and the more I can remember the next time the subject comes up. I must disagree with your correspondent who criticized the contributors for their use of metaphors. Not only is mataphor an excellent way to help understanding, but all the physicists I have known have told me that physics and philosophy are related - aren't both engaged with the search for answers beyond the visible ? As a history graduate, who felt very little interest in 'science' as I was taught it at school, and who knew even less about it, I have always thought it a great pity that there should be this belief in the 'factual, practical scientist' as a breed apart from the imaginative side of humanity. Surely the greatest thinkers in any sphere are those with imagination and creativity - the ones who dare to think the impossible.

Richard Leigh - Vacuums (or vacua?)
Don't see why we should try to do without metaphor. I suspect that it would be impossible beyond the first few sentences. We proceed from the known to the unknown, after all. An anecdote which could even be relevant to the last bit of the newsletter. Ronald Knox was listening to an agrument about the existence of a deity. Someone said that the exstence of human life on Earth was so amazing, so against the odds, that only the action of a creator could account for it. The objection was made that, with so many planets in the universe, there was bound to be human life on one of them. (Law of averages, stands to reason, etc etc). Knox said that if the police discovered a dismembered corpse in a trunk on Paddington Station they would not say "there are so many trunks in the world, there was bound to be a corpse in one of them" - they would try to acertain who put it there.

Chris Miller - Anthropic Universe
The postscript to Melvyn's newsletter suggests a future topic. Why are the physical underpinnings of the Universe - the fundamental physical constants - apparently fine-tuned to enable the development of life?

The Vacuum. Not god again...please
'Because the basics of modern physics is so ridiculously implausible, ie: unproveable, untrackable, unknowable, it does make the idea that a god ...etc'This comment was made by a friend of Mr Bragg at lunch after the show.Well, the problem is one that Kant recognised when he opined that there are 'things as they are' and things as they appear to humans'. We interpret the world through our five senses which have evolved to take measure and, together with specialised areas in the brain, build a model of the world. To underline the point, our eyes are able to sense only a small part of the electromagnetic spectrum. They can not sense radio waves or x-rays or even ultra-violet light, for example, all of which are electromagnetic radiation.No, the human eye evolved to deal with things that are directly relevant to survival by natural selection.Therefore, it is not surprising that the world of the very small, where quantum mechanics dominates, are outside of our day-to-day experience and appear to be 'ridiculously implausible'. However, this is only a surface view, science has models to present to the world that are open to scrutiny and are able to predict experimental outcomes with a high degree of certainty. What is more, technology has been able to profit from these models and produce working devices such as lasers and transistors which have transformed our societies.To suggest that the world is a strange place which has not yet yielded its full knowledge and, therefore, god needs to be added to the mix is intellectual capitulation.Malcolm Jenkins. Atheist

Kath Potter -- Nothing
I was particularly interested in Melvyn's remark after the show about faith. As a 'floating voter' myself I would love to have a whole programme on the existence or otherwise of God

Where Are the Wild Things?
I refer to Melvyn's newsletter of 1 May 2009, hinting that the St. James Park wildlife are being interned without trial at a secret location. I suspect that being Wild Things they will once again return to make our hearts sing once the lake is restored. Being wild, they will undoubtedly through personal initiative have found alternative temporary 'decant' accommodation, since they unfortunately fail to meet statutory homelessness criteria and (not being human) are unlikely to have any cause of action under the Human Rights Act. So we are unlikely to hear:'May it please your Lordship I represent a small contingent of Canada Geese and my learned friend appears for the Mallards referred to in the Claim Form. . .'.Yours sincerely,Nicholas Dobson

Ian Francis: St James Park ducks
The failure of intelligence here is not difficult to attribute. Massive expenditure on Sigint has produced nothing, and the sources of Humint are simply not in place. The government must now commit sensible investment into the adaptation of drone aircraft to shadow wild bird movements. If just a small proportion of what has been given to the banks etc, etc

John - Vacuum - and Program Suggestion
Very Good Show IOT and Many Thanks again for clear logic.To augment these programs Please consider having the outstanding and very well spoken philosopher Keith Ward. He has this uncanny ability to bridge the gap soundly, clearly and logically (in a balanced way) between science and the human person... He will be an outstanding contributor...It would be great for a fan of IOT's educational subjects to hear a contributor like Keith Ward on any of your science, philosophy or religion episodes.I listen to Keith Ward's Gresham College lectures and see that he is a prolific author and note that Dr Ward would contribute so well to many I.O.T. subjects and episodes.......BIO: ...Keith Ward is a fellow of the British Academy, the Regius Professor of Divinity Emeritus at the University of Oxford, an ordained priest of the Church of England, and a member of the Council of the Royal Institute of Philosophy. He holds doctorates of divinity from Cambridge and Oxford. He has been a university lecturer at the Universities of Glasgow, St. Andrews, Cambridge, and London, where he was professor or history and philosophy of religion. The author of more than twenty highly acclaimed books, Ward is particularly interested in comparative theology and the interplay between science and religion. Keith Ward lives in Oxford, England.

John - Vacuum - and Program Suggestion
Very Good Show IOT and Many Thanks again for clear logic.To augment these programs Please consider having the outstanding and very well spoken philosopher Keith Ward. He has this uncanny ability to bridge the gap soundly, clearly and logically (in a balanced way) between science and the human person... He will be an outstanding contributor...It would be great for a fan of IOT's educational subjects to hear a contributor like Keith Ward on any of your science, philosophy or religion episodes.I listen to Keith Ward's Gresham College lectures and see that he is a prolific author and note that Dr Ward would contribute so well to many I.O.T. subjects and episodes.......BIO: ...Keith Ward is a fellow of the British Academy, the Regius Professor of Divinity Emeritus at the University of Oxford, an ordained priest of the Church of England, and a member of the Council of the Royal Institute of Philosophy. He holds doctorates of divinity from Cambridge and Oxford. He has been a university lecturer at the Universities of Glasgow, St. Andrews, Cambridge, and London, where he was professor or history and philosophy of religion. The author of more than twenty highly acclaimed books, Ward is particularly interested in comparative theology and the interplay between science and religion. Keith Ward lives in Oxford, England.

Iain - Vacuum
Really fascinating programme, but one question I felt remained inadequately answered - what is the universe expanding into? We were told earlier that all motion is relative, so presumably its expansion must be relative to something that isn't expanding. And if space itself is expanding, how could we be aware of it, as presumably we and our perceptions would be expanding too? It sound to me as if it's the things within the universe that are moving apart from one another, rather than the universe itself getting bigger (bigger than what?). If anyone can clear this up I will be very grateful...

Brian Nesbitt; vacuum
Dear Melvin,I greatly enjoyed your latest programme about vacuum. As a mechanical engineer, I don't think vacuums exist in nature on the earth. A near perfect vacuum must be manufactured and maintained. In engineering terms, nature definitely does abhor a vacuum. Vacuum seals are more sophisticated than pressure seals.Pascal's atmospheric experiment with two liquids of different densities was very well conceived but poorly executed. The choice of liquids was inappropriate. Water was a good choice, a single compound, but the experiment may have been compromised by poor procedures. Wine was a poor choice; a mixture of liquid compounds and the water contained dissolved compounds. The liquid choice was poor because of a lack of understanding of the physical and thermodynamic properties.An inverted liquid column in a sealed tube, supported by atmospheric pressure on a body of open liquid, is not surmounted within the tube by a vacuum. Water will be surmounted by steam, saturated water vapour. The pressure in the 'void' will be the vapour pressure corresponding to the water temperature. At 20 degC the pressure would be 0.023 bar(a); about a 44th of the atmospheric pressure.The preceding statement will be completely accurate providing distilled water was used and the water handling was appropriate to avoid entrainment or solution of 'air'. Fresh water contains dissolved and entrained gases. The 'void' above the liquid column would contain water vapour and gas(es) at a pressure determined by the relevant concentrations and partial pressures.Wine consists of alcohol, contaminated water and possibly dissolved carbon dioxide from the fermentation process. Ethyl alcohol dissolves carbon dioxide better than water. The 'void' above the liquid column would contain alcohol vapour, water vapour and carbon dioxide and possibly other gases. At 20 degC the vapour pressure of alcohol would be about 0.026 bar(a).Comparison of the two liquid columns would not produce accurate, repeatable results. Wine is not a definitive 'liquid' just as fresh water is just not 'water'.Mercury is a very good liquid choice apart from its advantages of very high density. Mercury has a very low vapour pressure. Vapour pressures at 126 degC:mercury 1 mm Hg (about 0.0013 bar(a))water 1816 mm Hgethyl alcohol 3800 mm Hg.I don't think liquid mercury is very good at dissolving gases but I don't have supporting data.One factor your guests failed to impart, a very important factor, is that liquids cannot be sucked. Liquids have a very low tensile strength and are unable to support tensile stresses. Liquids must be pushed, compressive stresses. This is why the 'vacuum tube' experiment works differently depending on the weather and the location, and importantly, the liquid temperature. Gases and vapours can be sucked.Kindest regards,Brian NesbittConsulting

Peter Jackson. Cosmic Dust & Vac.
Nice balance Melvyn, not tooo dumbed down for a physicist to listen to but, it seems, ok for public - all those metaphores essential for that!Probably sensible your guests avoided the central issue, that the ether doesn't work, ..at all.. alongside relativity. Yet we know they both work! You dealt with this main paradox with Penrose a few weeks ago, the answer being termed the 'Holy Grail' everyones looking for.But I've got news. They're not. As your guests proved by avoiding it. Physics is based in academia, which is solely dependant on maintaining grant funding for existing projects & areas, mainly maths based. This means positively excluding and ignoring the original conceptual 'big picture' thinking of Newton, Goethe, Maxwell, Einstein etc. The type of thinking that has solved ALL the big problems in the past. Anyone who thinks like that now is shut out as they're obviously a nutter! There are many other paradoxes in physics, and the answer to many of them is consequential on the answer to the first. But, to 'para'quote, (was it Ruth or Jocelyn?) "we have an ability to ignore ..things.. if they don't say what we want to hear". Penrose asked the question but doesn't even reply to anyone with the answer as they must be nuts! But to be fair he's part of the overwhelming majority! There is simply no mechanism left for even just checking over original thought, even if it's results entirely proven. (Unless someone knows a method?). No wonder we've been stuck for 100yrs now! Do we deserve to progress?

jane - vacuum - Geoff Bunn
You see, I thought that Melvyn had finally persuaded some academics to talk in welcome analogies and found that it helped the brain to grasp concepts quickly and easily.....he just can't win can he! Loved the programme - for me it was an 'oasis' with the most palatable water - truly. Great big thanks as alway. Best wishes.

Vacuum - great fun!
Listening to Jocelyn Bell Burnell - the woman who discovered pulsars, no less - talking about 'being at a party and finding 20 quid' was absolutely priceless. Did I hear giggling in the background?! Loved the programme anyway, cheers!Dave Robinson, London

Alan Clifford Vacuum of Space
There was great discussion about what medium electro-magnetic waves travel in across space. It used to be called 'The Ether', but nowadays I think it must be the residual energy of the 'Big bang'. If so before the Big Bang there was no light, there was nothing for it to travel in. Just as there can be no waves in a dry pond. Another oddity from this idea is that the speed of light is a function of the media it travels in, but as the residual energy from the Big Bang is the only medium there is, the speed of light is a constant. What do clever people think of this concept?

The Vacuum of Space
There is one “thing” that should help where the notion of “Dark energy"did not. It is true that the universe is expanding faster that it should, but it doesn’t mean it is going to continue expanding eternally. There will be the times and have been the times, though, when his expansion is slower than it, by the calculations of physicists, should be. It is all due to the “Dumbledor’s effect”, the physical phenomenon I have observed a few times. If it is confirmed it maybe wouldn’t be a bad idea to keep that name.Let me explain:” The local universes don’t all have identical masses and the frequencies, at which they oscillate, accordingly, also slightly differ. Due to that, it, after a number of “Big Bangs”, happens that some of neighboring local universes have their “Big bangs” temporary close to itch other. It is a relatively frequent phenomenon, which happens maybe once at every ten “Big bangs” per universe, by my estimate. But it would be better to take this only as a guessed order of magnitude for the frequency of the event. Any way I did no explain the nature of that phenomenon yet. At such “moments” the speeds of contraction of all the members of that group are adjusted, so that they reach their final phase of contraction at the same instant. They then do not go thru the ordinary Big Bangs, but congregate in one point in the center of the group, so that it comes to something that I am inclined to call: “Hyper big bang”. Afterwards they all take their “old” position and continue to expand further. The universes are perfect spheres and have average distances of ten diameters of one fully expanded universe. The event is best observable in its final phase, but mutual influences must be present all the time (and not only between the universes that are close to each other). And that would be the simple and inexpensive explanation for the fact that our universe is experiencing acceleration rather than retardation of its expansion’s velocity. After “the unified field theory” was finished, that unknown physical mechanism by which the universes exchange either its anti gravitational or gravitational energy will emerge as one of its consequences. In my opinion, if I may say so. Now it is only that theory which has to be done. And it is easy! I mean it’s either easy or impossible. The other method would be to hover as one astral projection between the universes and see maybe the few of such events consecutively, as it has happened to me. But as far as I can remember you have better chances to come into that position if you previously have had a habit of completing that theory.”Thanks to J.K.Rowling whose story has helped me a lot to explain this story. The scene when wizard Dumledore comes to the street where young Harry Potter is going to be living after the death of his parents and the catastrophe the wizard world has undergone is slightly differently depicted in the book (Harry Potter and Philosopher Stone) then in the movie. In the book the lamps just went out due to the action of the Dumbledor’s silver cigarette lighter, whereas in the movie, as far as I remember, the lights are all collected one by one in that lighter and than send back to the lamps. The scene in the book is much more effective as it is told there; in somewhat darker manner than in the movie. Best wishes to all at BBC4, all the listeners and they relatives and neighbors and so on.

(Mrs.) R. Mickleburgh.....The Vacuum of Space
I often listen to this programme and don't pretend always to understand everything but enjoy discussions between presumedly intelligent people. On this occasion though I was disgusted by the frequent cheap language and jibes by one of the female guests - particularly the "let's make fun of the railways" bandwaggon. Does she think she has to speak down in this way to help "Mr. Average" understand?I found her comments patronising and insulting and a disgrace to the programme, as was the laughter from Mr. Bragg and other guests. Only one person - Mr. Close I assume - seemed, rightly, to show some embarrasment(I see I am not the only one to take exception to this programme!)

Dorian Marius Goring BA MSc PGCE
VACUOUS VACUUMJ Bell-Bernell great! Lovely easy explanations. A joy to listen, as always Melvyn. Thank you

James Baring - The nature of Space Time
Sorry, this discussion revealed the poor understanding of the participants in one fundamental respect. The aether idea had to be changed but it should never have been 'abolished' as if there was no spacetime frame of reference. Special Rel. only exists in the context of General Rel. which defines any frame of reference. Einstein's thought experiment led by reductio to the space-time theory but must then be junked as it is not just time that stops, space contracts. That means exactly this: whatever speed Einstein and his mirror COULD reach, he would see his face in the mirror just the same. That does NOT mean there is no aether, merely that it is not independent of the energy, mass and light being measured. Not an independent medium. Call it a Higgs Field if you like, and devise an experiment which if taken to extreme can produce what you call a particle, but its properties extend beyond such ideas. Until this is properly explained, which you failed to do, rational listeners will remain mystified. I am glad some seem to have been satisfied but I think they may have been misled. The rest was OK as far as it went which is quite far enough for the moment.

Jazspeak - The Vacuum of Space
This was a very engaging discussion that tackled some fundamental aspects of our Universe. Many of the analogies were a good attempt to explain some very difficult ideas, although one or two of those analogies did seem a little too trite by today's standards of popular understanding - particularly the persistence with the 'rubber sheet' model of the Universe, which is at least one dimension short of reality. All in all, there were some very interesting points of view expressed by the guests.

Paulpic stream of nothing
In constructive geometry 1/nothing = infinity. So, maybe both nothing and everthing will be forever just beyond our grasp. But, what do I know; I was waiting all week for this show and the silly computer streaming dealy isn't generating anything. Is that an example of irony for someone with nothing better to do?

The Vacuum
Google Roberto Monti's 'The Real Einstein' for a scholarly piece on how the Michelson-Morley experiment was, contrary to popular opinion, not null (as Michelson recognised); and also on how subsequent interferometer experiments have invariably demonstrated a pronounced Michelson-Sagnac effect, which shows that an ether - a nonrelative reference frame of some kind or other - underpins the propagation of light. Once more, relativity is shown to be wrong, as an increasing number of engineers, physicists, astonomers, logicians and so on are coming to recognise.

Aether: Dr. Akira Kanda
Having said on the mislead interpretation of MM's experiment in support of Maxwell's aether theory, I have to admit that this concept has a serious problem. According to Maxwell's em field theory, depending upon the impedance of the medium, the speed of light through the medium changes. Fine. However, Maxwell also claims that aether is all pervasive. This means that in non-vacuum medium, aether exist. Then the light must be able to travel through non-vacuum medium using the aether inside with speed c. Some physicists say that non-vacuum mediums are made of particles and light loses energy by hitting these particles. However, em theory says that light carries energy not as its speed but as its frequency.

All Recent topics
The description of each topic has become ridiculously inadequate giving only the names of contributors not even their positions in society and sadly nothing on the topic itself.

Vacuum, aether: Dr. Akira Kanda
Assume aether as per Maxwell. Consider an emitter and reflector moving with the same velocity against aether. Let d be the distance between them. The light path of the light from the emitter back to it from the perspective of the aether is 2d. From the perspective of the emitter-reflector, it also is 2d. Here we are considering this situation in classical setting and so, the clocks and rods in all inertial frames are synchronised and identical. This means, MM's zero result is completely consistent with Maxwell's aether theory. MM never refuted the existence of aether. Correct interpretation of MM result is that we cannot detect the aether by measuring the speed of light as MM did. This situation can be explicated in a more intrinsic way as follows: Assume a train runs with constant speed v. At distance d, it flashes light towards you. Then the light path from your perspective is d. So, v is irrelevant here. Assuming the Principle of Relativity as Einstein did causes a contradiction here. From the train's perspective, according to the Principle of relativity, it is you who is moving towards the train. Then the light path is d-vt where t is the time required for the light to reach you. So, we have an obvious contradiction d=d-vt. The problem here is that for aether, you moving and the train moving are entirely different things. So, wave mechanics avoids this contradiction by rejecting the principle of Relativity. That MM dis not refute the existence of aether and that wave mechanics rejects the Principle of relativity calls in reexamining the validity of Einstein's Special Relativity Theory.

John B.
Thanks I.O.T. and ContributorsGreat Show...The show ended where it began, with the Ether having returned but defined differently...It's very interesting that the old notion of the ether, a century later, conceptualized differently, having a multiplicity of new functions is still back according to your physicists... "Every cubic foot of space" seems to contain higgs bosons, dark matter, a flurry of electromagnetic activity, "worms of activity" (as your physicist said) be full of virtual particles, contain radiation, contain resident waves and particles, and other things ad infinitum. ....Perhaps there is as much resistance to the ether returning as there was to it being done away with. In a sense, of course this is playing with semantics and definitions.....The Ether today is very different than what it was proposed to be a century ago.... But it's still clear that empty space, (filled with all this energy, radiation and activity, that light DOES PASS THROUGH one way or another), can be called the "New Ether" or perhaps a type of quantum ether.Very Best,John B

Tom Milner-Gulland - vaccum
Intriguing that the guests were one minute telling us that there is no ether (on whose ontology there has never been any full consensus), and the next, that space is full of forces (incidentally, Tesla, Bedini and others have harnessed these to make much-ignored, but effective 'free energy' devices; for a metaphysical perspective, see Bergson's Matter and Memory). I was disappointed that no mention was made of the recent revival of ether theory (and increasingly convincing rebuttals of the thesis that the universe is expanding -- refer for example to Halton Arp's anomalous redshift). No talk either of the extraordinary Allais effect observed at eclipses, which may render redundant the idea of dark matter, and, as if to suggest an ether, forms a nexus between magnetic field (of planets) and gravitation.I could only ever subscribe to a metaphysical ether, in accordance with the notion that energy transcends physics. Light is emitted and received according to fixed principles, including those involving intermediate absoprtive, reflective or refractive entities; but it is a question of its according with the principles while not undergoing physical transit. It is no kind of physics to suggest that etheric particles conform to one set of principles and matter, another. Also, any speak of distance, when not in reference to Newtonian mechanics, is surely nonsensical. We should ditch the literal idea of subatomic distance in favour of reference purely to energetic exchange; and return also to ideas of a metaphysical substrate (whether or not Aristotle believed in one such has been contested, with possible mistranslations having crept in -- see Chorlton).

dark energy/matter
I would love to know what the difference between dark energy/matter and 'the aether' is. Both appear to be concepts introduced to explain the inexplicable, both appear to be directly unobservable.

The Vacuum of Space
I have never heard a proper scientist confirm this, but I thought that the medium that electro-magnetic waves vibrated in was the residual energy from the big bang; formaly called 'the Ether'.I didn't hear anyone on the program consider this. Before the big bang there was no light because there was no residual energy. What do clever people think of this idea?

Peter Jones: Nothingness
Listening to this programme, I felt as if one had found oneself in a jungle and the only way forward was to get further and further into the mire, with no hope of a certainoutcome. Is it not time for scientists to begin to question the existence of a material universe outside of consciousness, and to consider the possibility of it being a mentalcreation. That being said, since science is based on the assumption that there is a material world "out there", such a change in thinking is probably too much to ask!

Brian Ferris The Vacuum of Space
An interesting programme, generally well explained so far as is possible but the crucial question, for me, was "into what is the universe expanding?" and this was asked but never answered. Perhaps the lady contributor who "answered" could be asked to elucidate. Surely the answer is not "the vacuum of space" or we are back where we started from.

Ian, The Vacuum of Space
A little disappointed that Ruth Gregory decided to use the (misleading) 'kicking things with photons' account of the uncertainty principle. Especially as she got halfway to explaining it properly for photons to do so.

John in Hong Kong on Vacuum.
Terrific programme. In Our Time is a marvellous programme, but this was realy something special. Excellent speakers who discussed the subject with great wit and verve. More please.

r, vacuum of space
good programme, thanks.

Vacuum
It seems the metaphors(for empty space)were rolling.The subject was like laughing gas to the participants.Can we not just keep simple subjects basicinstead of getting carried away.Thiscould have been clowning in 6 easy stages.It's almost analagous to how many angels can you get on the head of a pin.We are dealing with the very very small almost invisible world ofminute particles and so metaphors flourish. Melvyn giggles in the face of all this dissolving of matter intonothing(always coming back to the table).I begin to feel he's dealt withthis subject one too many times,thinkshimself a dab hand at it now,that somelaziness has crept in,that he's lost a little sharpness in pinning things down.We are in the world of Heiddegerean space-time.Let's get back to simple space and time in which our bodies move.Clean out the Augean Stables.

Jon Hurwitz - subject suggestion
I heard on the radio last week that it was the 40th anniversary of the Open University. I wonder if there could be a programme on the history and future of distance learning. Or would that be a little self-referential?

Ann Gavriel - Vacuum.. Space
Excellent analogies and explanations. Thank you for this wonderful In Our Time, superbly enlightening... But still unanswered was the question (Melvyn asked towards the end): what is everything expanding INTO (or 'rushing away from everything else') into? If the universe is everything, how can 'it' expand into 'what is not'?? Can someone please help me conceive of this without logical or conceptual contradiction? Thank you....

Roy VACUUM OF SPACE
I very much enjoyed the Melvyn Bragg discussion and will certainly listen to it again very carefully. However in common with all recent discourse on accelerating red shifts, dark energy, Higgs Boson etc. there is never any mention of the curvature of space (or dare I say curvature of Spacetime). As I understand it, the concept that space is curved is not disputed. It has been explained to me that the curvature of space is left out of cosmological models because we do not have a figure of magnitude for the radius of curvature. (There is also the problem that time is relative and poorly understood and therefore only linear aspects of time are used in such models.) I feel that any discussion of the accelerating red shift and related matters should make some reference to the curvature of space. I could expand a little on my thoughts on the matter, but for the sake of brevity, (and the fact that the whole subject makes my head hurt) I ask a simple question. Why is the curvature of space not considered relevant to such discussions? BTW As a clue to my way of thinking. If space is truly curved, then the Big Bang might eventually become the Big Implosion and time will start again. Or if you think in terms of relative time, the Big Bang and the Big Implosion and everything in between is happening NOW and FOREVER.

Frank Gilbert
Excellent programme but, most frustratingly, a missed opportunity to wind it up perfectly. With 'Nothing' having eluded being pinned down, it was explained right at the end of the programme that what was expanding was 'Space itself'. Begging the coup de grâce: INTO WHAT? So, triumphantly, we may have at last arrived at 'Nothing'.

Vacuous Vacuum
"A real one round the block" concluded Melvyn at the end - appropriately on a metaphor. But the entire show was saturated indeed structured with metaphors: 'imagine space like a stretched rubber sheet; 'a man wants to borrow 20 quid' etc. So I got to thinking: Can theoretical physicists not discuss their subject without recourse to discourse? This week's show contained so many analogies that I began to wonder if there was any non-poetic knowledge there at all. I thought science was meant to be literal not metaphoric!How about a show on science and metaphor? I propose you do Psychology next as we're getting tired with Higgs Bosons (named after NOT the first proposer of that particle incidently) and Uncertain cats. We know that all Psychological knowledge is metaphorical, but is Physics too?Geoff Bunn

Dermod O'Reilly
VACUUMAn excellent programme. A balanced (plenty about doubts and failures) with a very clear exposition of the (known) directions this fascinating subject might go. Melvyn excelled this time.

Theo Read The universe
I have been listening to the programme and it has been brilliant - wonderful contributors with some very creative images to help me understand elements of physics - thank you!

Ken Thorp, Vacuum
Light on Dark Matter(vacuum)The matter was clear the scientist dreamedWithout its own anti so solid it seemedBalance the two and lo and beholdA vacuum appears, this is nothing we’re toldA vacuum is everything balanced and wholeIt is the universe, that is its roleThe bits that are missing, they form you and meAnd like kind of bits is all we may seeWhere is my anti you wondering thinkBack of beyond, or just out of sync?From matter to anti the cycle goes onAnd quantum results strobe each one by one We need some dark matter with lots of dimensionsTo allow us Big Bang and other conventionsDimensions and matter and with some to spareJust think inside out if you dare, if you dare! Gravity never did seek to attractJust human perspective makes this seem a factPopulous vacuum instead must repelGalaxies, stars and people as well We’re all pushed together, expelled from the darkEach atom, electron, neutron and quarkDark matter is there, hiding passive as noughtEvading all tests, will it ever get caught?But it will be plain to those that would seeThat it’s all of nothing, unlike you and meBalance of forces like nature intendedBosuns and Mesons with waveform extendedHarmonious whole carries light waves cross spaceCompletes atom shells, gives electrons their placeFills all the gaps, completes all the storyThe masterful puzzle that still is God’s glory Author: Ken Thorp Physics Undergraduate, Open University kenthorp@talktalk.net

Graham Ogden..... new subject?
As its Johnson's tercentenary, are there any plans to make him the subject of In Our Time? If you have done so and i've missed it, can you tell me how to access it?

VACUOUS VACUUM
Space is not only NOT A VACUUM, it is full of conductive plasma carrying flows of electricity that mediate many observed phenomena. Search: 'The Electric Universe'.

St.Petersburg
When I was a young man I went on a 13 day Baltic cruise which ended up in St Petersburg(then Leningrad).This waspre-Glasnost.I remember me and anothercolleague being shown to a restaurantby a Leningradian and he ordered andpaid for a meal for both of us and left.Certainly an unusually fine type of hospitality! I'll never forget ourtotal surprise.This never occurred tome anywhere else.

William - Downloads
Dear 'In Our Time'I am very interested in your 'philosophy resource' section, especially the greatest philosophers shortlist and the audio as to why you should vote for each philosopher. Unfortunately, they are only avilable in .ram format. Like most people, I don't want to sit at my computer and listen to each of these, I want to be able to listen to them on the run! I feel that not having these available in mp3 format to download, makes this resource inaccessible and mostly useless. Please make it available in mp3!- William.

jane -
Just wanted to send my usual large thanks. The issues of suffragism in last week's programme and Catherine the Great in this week's.....we're an oddly erratic species. The comments always show just how many different 'ears' we all listen with....I'll lay the odds on some good responses to next week's subject! Best wishes to all.

Ed Dovey / St Petersburg
Really enjoyed the programme. Nice point made about how much the three ruling empresses;- Anna, Elizabeth and Catherine the Great, contributed to the development of St Petersburg, ( and indeed to that of Russia as a great power.Didn't really need the graphic description of how Peter the Great died in Melvyn's Newsletter!

St Petersburg
HelloI visited Amsterdam some years ago. And throughout the stay was in wonderment at the sheer scale of the achievement of building a city around so many canals. Perhaps you could give the 'In Our Time' treatment to the building of Amsterdam. I subsequently did some research of my own but was not satisfied that I got to the bottom of the brutality side of it. Who built the canals - was it conscripts as in the case of St Petersburg, or was it slaves or was it the Dutch population and what machinery did they have at their disposal? Just finished reading 'Brave New World'. Thank you for some very interesting programming. Kind RegardsHarsha Savjani (Ms)

Brian Hughes - St Petersburg
Another fine, entertaining and informative programme (and Renaissance-man's newsletter) this week. I learnt more about Russian and East European history of the period plus some bonus stuff around architecture and power in your 42 minutes than I ever knew before...

Dave Taylor
The German philosopher/sociologist, Jurgen Habermas will be 80 on June 18th. To mark this occasion an enlightening discussion of his work would be most welcome. Perhaps Habermas expert, William Outhwaite of Newcastle University could contribute?

(Re)building of St Petersberg
Perhaps a few moments on the (Re)building of St Petersberg (then Leningrad)after the Nazis had destroyed it? Russians say if you want to get the 'feel' of Russia; go to Moscow; St P is 'too European'.

John Clark - Possible future topics
I cannot find any other email way of asking a question of you - so I am using this comment section.Given the anniversaries of the birth of Samuel Johnson - and the death of Handel are there any plans for In Our Time conversations about these very significant people and their contribution to the English language and the world of music and opera?

Gary: When is the IOT book being published?
I heard that a book is to be published based on topics featured on IOT. Does anyone know when it will be available?Thanks

James Scott-Thursday's programme
I enjoy the programme each week , there isn't a wasted minute (dead space) and it cannot be easy for all those present. I also enjoy the walk through London after the programme and the what happened and sometimes what might have been. Value for money any time. best wishes to all involved.

Maurice Price ~ St. Petersburg programme
What a gripping programme. I just loved every minute and have decided to visit. If only my history teacher at school had not made it sound so dull and impersonal I would have made this vow to myself years ago. Thanks for the inspiration.

St Petersburg, Russia
As a young Man I was in Leningrad in the 1960,s. Now it is called St Petersburg. On the internet St Petersburg is a tourist destination, type in Leningrad and its a different story. Which one is correct? mostly todays UK teachers have never heard of Leningrad! history re-written? and wrongly for the thousands of Russians who died in that city during WW2.

Richard S - St Petersburg
Too much to cram in, but I would have liked a mention of Daniel Wheeler, the Quaker who drained the marshes round the city and made them agriculturally productive in the 1820s. Tsar Alexander I had met Quakers when in London and asked them to find an engineer/agriculturalist who was capable and trustworthy. The story is in J O Greenwood 'Vines on the Mountains', Sessions 1977. This also tells of the Quaker James Finlayson who set up the cotton mill that makes Tampere in Finland look like Lancashire.

Charles Suffragism
The idea that women were hard done by compared to men is, of course, nonsense.Even today, it is men, not women, who make up the majority of victims in just about every area imaginable.

Cinema
I think you should do an In Our Time on Bergman's Persona or Fellini's 8 1/2, looking through your culture archive I can't find any film based ones. Why overlook one of the major modern art forms? Love the show by the way, The Waste Land one was excellent

Bacon/inductive method
What? A whole programme on Bacon and no mention of scepticism? Scepticism saw off the apriorism of scholastic Aristotelianism and gave the authoritative push towards the empiricism which science exemplifies: 'you only know what is evident and only provisionally'. Bacon's Essays were named after Montaigne's which strongly back the skeptic horse and were hugely successful both sides of the channel. Bacon's exponency of induction was in context of skepticism being the philosophy du jour.

jane - Suffragism
This is an incredible programme - it doesn't just bring things to light, it brings them to life. I've often thanked Melvyn but this week I feel particularly inclined to thank James Cook. Shouldn't his picture be up on the website too? (Unless he prefers anonymity.) There's been much nonsense between the two sexes for so long - I light heartedly taught my daughter very early on about these sort of issues in order to 'forearm' her. "Victims of their own biology".....bit like 'kettle calling pan black' if we take the Y chromosome into consideration! The subject is vast, deeply ingrained and not yet fully resolved .... however, I turned off the radio deeply touched by what I'd heard. Wandering through to my kids I said, with a renewal of hope in my heart (naf as that may seem), "You know, amidst the madness and mayhem of this strange planet there are always a few amazing people who somehow keep things at least a bit on the right track". What shining jewels those women were - I'm not proud to admit that I don't think I could muster that sort of physical courage, even in the face of such injustices as they were addressing. It was an extraordinary heroism. I really want to thank you for this particular programme which produced a certain and very humble 'sea-change' in me. Best wishes as always.

In Our Time - Science Programmes
I'm a regular listener to In Our Time and particularly enjoy the science transmissions.Are you making any more programmes featuring the likes of Steve Jones, Jane Francis, Richard Corfield or Margaret Clegg?These people are thoroughly at ease with their subjects and impart their knowledge in a digestible and entertaining manner.

léo burton suffragettes
there was no reference to the participation of women in the paris commune....did these parisiennes influence the british womens' movement?

Mitzi Auchterlonie Women's Suffrage
I was, as usual, disappointed that after 1903 all the emphasis on the women's suffrage movement is put on the activities of the militant suffragettes, without any further reference to the suffragists led by Millicent Fawcett (who were far greater in number), who continued their peaceful campaigning. There were other suffrage groups too, like the Conservative and Uniionist Women's Franchise Association, who were founded in 1908 in reaction to the increased militancy of the WSPU and the founding of the Anti-Suffrage League. Party politics cannot be left out of the suffrage movement - the women who joined the NUWSS, the CUWFA, the WSPU and the Women's Freedom League very often had strong party allegiances which affected their campaigning agendas.

women's suffrage
i try to listen to in our time most weeks sometimes the subject matter is totally new to me but never the less i find it all fascinating this weeks programme was wonderful as a graduate in women's studies well done!

Kenneth Marshall : Women's suffrage
When asked for the reasons that the suffrage movement encountered such strong opposition, even amongst other women, none of the experts, nor Melvyn, mentioned the role of religion. The bible states, in the book of Genesis, that God made woman as man's "helper" (only after he couldn't find one of the animals to give him a hand) (Chapter 2: verses 18 to 22) and that man should "rule over" woman (Ch. 3: v.16). I can't believe that, in what, at that time, would have been a far more God-fearing country than Britain is now, clear scriptural authority such as this would not have affected people's views.

Suffragism and Sylvia Pankhurst.
I was interrupted during the programme and may have missed a reference to Sylvia Pankhurst but anyway I want to bring up her contribution to the cause. First, as a gifted artist she, with support in Parliament from her mentor, keir Hardie, publicised the bias of the Royal College of Art over the award of scholarships almost exclusively to men.The College was shamed into relaxing their policies. This was part of the wider demand for more access to higher education, as referred to in the programme. In 1909, shortly after leaving the College, she toured the country recording the harsh conditions of working women ('the Angel of the Hearth supporters appaerently were blind to the money required to sustain this fantasy). Among her discovereies was that women employed in the potteries women put to lead glazingwhich was not only lowest paid but also was exposing them to being them seves poisoned but also causing them to miscarry or bear children with defects. In agriculture, many labourers were provided with tied cottages, which tied not only them but also their wives to labour. (This double bind was still in force in Kent in the 60s) But the lease was in the husband's name only since married women had no seperate legal identity. In the event of a man's premature death, his widow and children had no rights to remain. As there were no votes to be gained from women, candidate MPs would have no interest in promoting reforms in their conditions. (This was lightly touched on in the programme)Nevertheless, as the years passed, Sylvia's time was increasingly devoted to direct caring for poor working class women and the split between her and Emmeline and Christabel became final with the outbreak of war in 1914. Sylvia was a pacifist, Christabel the opposite.

Mary Wollstonecraft
So good to hear a mention of her in your programme on suffragettes! Wollstonecraft's 250th birthday is next week. I know there are some events in London (debate, lecture, tombstone tribute, etc.), but will there be anything on R4? Why not have a whole show on her, albeit later on this year?The descriptions of the forced feeding were the most gruesome I've come across. It all deserves to be remembered.

Reuben Anderson - Suffragism
I don't understand the idea that there's masculine resistance to the rising equality of women. I appreciate it might look like that from a high level view and broad brush statistics - but exactly when and how does this actually happen? In my entire life I cannot recall a single instance where I've been aware of any circumstance where a woman has been discriminated against, to any degree, because of her gender. In my professional life, both as an engineer and then as an IT analyst, a colleague's gender has never borne the slightest relevance of any sort. If such sexism does still exist, (obviously we mean in the western world), I would argue that it's a generational anachronism and that in future, as my generation become the elders of this society, this will pass away. This is the century of women. We've just seen a US election where a woman was seriously considered as a presidential candidate (and would have won the nomination bar the phenomenon that is Obama). Watch it - this world is changing, and fast.

The Newsletter
Very briefly; I wish Lord Bragg would not (seemingly always) mention the beautiful sunny weather, as he walks through Central London after recording a programme.Here in Leicester it seems to have been, dull, damp and dreary - not to speak of cold - since some time last September. I believe the weather in Lord Bragg's native stamping ground has even been fine and warm in the last few days. What have we done wrong in the Midlands?

Kerry Brave new world
So many interesting comments already, so mine is confined to warmest congratulations to all concerned. A programme of greater quality or relevance is hard to imagine. And Melvyn kept his interruptions in check!

Votes For Women Collie
Was the behaviour of the Liberal Party & govt (esp forcible feeding of prisoners) cause of the Strange Death pf Liberal England? Or was all this overwhelmed by the Great War?

janet baker.suffragism
I was surprised and disappointed that no mention was made of Sylvia Pankhurst. Why is such an important figure so often sidelined? She worked from a more socialist and left-wing position and so gathered support from a very wide range of people - politically people like Keir Hardie but also disadvantaged women who were largely ignored by the more middle class suffragists. I am sorry you did not take the opportunity to bring her contribution to the fore and, perhaps in doing so, raise support for the memorial to her on Parliament Square. This is at present being blocked by the House of Lords, inspite of the agreement of the Commons and Westminster City Council. Emmeline and Christabel are already honoured by a memorial in Victoria Tower Gardens.

J Speel: Suffragettes
No mention of the role of women in local government, school boards and similar. This participation began in the latter part of the 19th century and was used as an argument for gaining the parliamentary franchise.

Suffragism
This weeks programme seemed curiously dry, bearing in mind the significance and volatility of the suffragette movement in our political history.Perhaps too much air time was devoted to the early history of the development of the movement for womens rights. We did not really get to hear much about the violent demonstrations of the early 20C, when the suffragettes were most active. There was little said of the women who armed themselves with knives axes and explosives and set about the leading polititions of the day.A great many arrests were made and charges brought with various offenses including arson and attacks on the like of Prime Minister Asquith.One was left with the impression that the movement was largely London based when in fact many of the activists came from Manchester and the North. The Pankhursts were all from Chorlton in Medlock. Mary Gawthorpe, Dora Marden and Ellen Wilkinson were Northern Girls.Also it is not really right to say that it was a working class movement. Those most active seemed to have been predominately from the educated upper middle classes. They were undoubtedly struck by the very difficult and unfair conditions endured by working class women in the mills and factories of the north. And particularly the desperate circumstances of such women with children and no husbands.The programme seemed to make little or no connection with the Manchester Liberal support given to the womens movement. Lloyd George, another person from Chorlton in Medlock, gave support, although he was later attacked by suffragettes, who tried to set fire to his house.The atheist Charles Bradlaugh, Northamptons MP was a valiant supporter too. Did the contributor from Northampton University get this across, or did I miss it? (Listen again not working at the moment)What happened to the Irish Home Rule connection? The Suffragettes supporters were also pushing for this and there were demonstrations and the "Dublin Outrages" involving violent acts by the more militant activists.We did get to hear about force-feeding in the prisons. But here again I don't think the discussion really come to life. The particularly cruel "cat and mouse" policy brought publicity and affected public sentiment in favour of the prisoners, who were getting a very mixed press at the time. The adoption of force feeding made the victims into martrys.The introduction to the programme makes it clear that it is about suffragists or suffragettes, yet the title is suffragism. The introduction suggests that the nature of the opposition to the movement will be explored. I do not think it was.Not one of the best programmes in this wonderful series Melvyn, but thank you all the same.

Judith Kazantzis: Suffragism
I enjoyed this brief retelling very much but have several comments: why no welknown feminist historians such as Sheila Rowbotham to give us more insight into the feeling among the women as well as a broader context? Am I right to think the panellists seemed a little unenthused with this complex and revolutionary movement, which hooks onto so many contemporary living issues. My problem is mainly with lack of context: it actually seemed slightly dated to restrict your subject to Votes for Women - inevitably you then had to make various efforts as you went along to bring in the broader context. Better to have had two programmes running, one to set the general movement towards the emanicipation of women, (going back to the Levellers and all sorts of minority movements) the second to focus on the Vote. Certainly, no programme on the women's vote here should miss out the Married Women's Property Act of late Victorian England, nor the beginning of women's entrance into the professions and the trade unions, and the formation of the important women's institutions like the Women's Guild, or the part they played in the early Co-op movement and for the matter the Labour Party. You would not have had to push to bring in class so late in the programme if you had set all this up beforehand. Yet as far I heard - did I miss these references? surely not - there was little mentioned beyond Barbara Boudichon's committee(Where for example was JS Mill and the first women's bill in the 1860s to bring in the vote?) Later on you mentioned the slow arrival of degrees for women, but why no mention of Emily Davies' work to get women into Oxbridge. No mention of Sophia Jex Blake, no Elizabeth Garret Anderson for the medical professions. To come back to the vote: there was a real argument between the WSPU and Millicent Fawcett's Suffragists: a classic argument over strategy, which causes and causes disagreement. Last point, re 1914-18, Emily and surelyChristabel too had come out as jingoists; were handing out white feathers to reluctant fighters and had declared a moratorium on suffragette campaigning, whereas the great Sylvia Pankhust, a pacifist and a socialist, was campaign ing against the war. Pity you didn't mention her work. Lastly what got the vote in the end?: the women or the war? You offer the then government's argument, that they could hardly enfranchise the soldiers without the women who had done such valiant war work. This implied that the pre-war and indeed fifty years of women's work for the vote had no part in the decision. This saved the government's face, but the truth was, I believe, that everything contributed. I'm not sure your panellists brought these issues out clearly. I do hope quite soon you will take a broader look at all the issues of the nineteenth/early twentieth women's emancipation movement, at least in the UK, better to touch on the movement in the US, and other countries too if possible, for all these are part of one historical movement.

Women's Suffrage
It is a pity that the history of the women's suffrage movement and for some the titillating aspects of cruelty towards women during the campaign,has made it so appealing to the media, given the as yet unproven worth of the women's vote.There were many more courageous women campaigners, long before the suffrage movement, who are almost entirely unknown. They were foremost in the anti-slavery movement and campaigned for women's rights and other progressive causes - against racism, sexism, anti-Semitism and the 'slavery' and patriarchy of the political conservativism of the traditional status status quo. They were the women who were abused and pilloried because they were women freethinkers, who recognised the origins of patriarchy in religion, in their day, Christianity.They wrote and spoke at huge meetings, despite being called harlots and she-devils, and much of their work was censored and suppressed by the power and influence of the church and its clerics.Annie Gaylor,president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation in the US has written a book featuring 50 such British and American women, from Mary Woolstonecraft, George Elliot, Hypacia Bradlaugh Bonner, Barbara Smoker and Taslima Nasrin, to Anne Royall, Francis Wright, Lydia Maria Child, Emma Martin, Susan Anthony - 50 in all, as well as notes of many others incuding Florence Nightingale.This is a bigger and more influential group of women that are still not recognised for the advances they achieved dispite their considerable social handicaps. It would be nice to see them celebrated instead of so many of the second rate men who have been awarded historical importance.This would be fitting for IOT, a programme for which I have the utmost praise and Melvin Bragg who does a superb job in bringing such depth of historical knowledge the British public, that have been so starved of honest academic appraisal.see www.wws-gb.freeuk.com"Women Without Superstition, No Gods No Masters"Sue MayerLondon Feminist Freethinkers

Dr Judith Rowbotham, Suffragism
I listened with great enjoyment to today's speakers, whom I regard highly - but I want to make two points! First I think they underplayed Barbara Bodichon's importance and the importance of the property issue generally: Bodichon and her 1854 text on women's legal disabilities played a crucial role in convincing a male parliament of the need to address this issue, culminating in the Married Women's Property Act 1882. And property is also crucial in understanding what went on. What was so radical in the 1918 Act was its virtual abandonment of the property qualification for male voters, which Lloyd George had identified in 1913 as a crucial factor (there was an ongoing campaign for universal male suffrage at the same time as the women's movement) if women were to be enfranchised. Women, witness the early giving of the vote to women in places like New Zealand, were seen as a naturally conservative force within society, so enfranchising women over 30 balanced out the radicalism of the new male voters. Also after 1918, women still suffered from disabilities (especially economic ones), as Virginia Woolf stressed in A Room of One's Own, 1929.

Linda Delgaty/Suffragettes
Enjoyed the programme on women's suffrage, but was disappointed that Sylvia Pankhurst was not mentioned. She is sadly overlooked. She formed the East London Federation of The Suffragettes and did some marvellous work. There is a good book called 'In Letters of Gold' about her life and work. The author is Rosemary Taylor. Published by Stepney Books 19 Tomlins Grove London E3 4NX/ISBN 0 950 5241 82. Thanks for an enjoyable programme. Regards. Linda Delgaty.

Tom Whitehouse Suffragism
I am amazed that you can spend 45 minutes on the Suffrage movement without discussing Sylvia Pankhurst, the East London Federation of Suffragettes, where it came from and what is led to.Also, a programme called In Our Time should have at least noted the parallels between the vilification and police atrocities in reaction to the direct action aspects of the suffragettes, and the continuing reactions of the state to radical challenge which have culminated in the controversy over police actions in the G20 protests

Mary Metcalfe. In Our Time
In the interesting programme on the impact of the Sufferagism one of the ladies taking part in the programme stated that conscription was introduced when war broke out in 1914. Conscription was not introduced until 1916. It was brought about because of the horrific numbers deaths being suffered by what was still a army of volunteers.Mary Metcalfe

John: Brave New World
Huxley showed his true disposition byhis friendship with DHL(when the Bloomsbury set had rejected him).DHL was interested in artists'colonies andwas himself in search of new worlds andthe mechanization of America and cars he loathed. Huxley also wrote his owngreat search into spirituality in 1946The Perenial Philosophy,which was aboutbelief,prayer,spirituality and the search for the Godhead.In BNW you havethe industralization of reproductionand the planned State where pleasuretakes the place of coercion and the figure of John the savage is a hybridof himself and DHL-and he hangs himself!QED.

Brave New World
On the modern relevance of BNW, Neil Postman's 'Amusing ourselves to death' is well worth investigating. In the preface he sums up his argument by stating that Orwell got the future wrong, Huxley got it right.

Nick Inman Brave New World
I'm surprised no one on the programme mentioned Neil Postman's Amusing Ourselves to Death which argues that Huxley (in Brave New World) was right about the future –which is now our present – and Orwell (1984) wrong. You don't need a totalitarian police state to control people's thoughts; you just need to keep them amused and infantilised with the banalities of television and, by extension, the internet.

Richard Strauss, Brave New World
I was interested to hear that Brave New World is as much a Utopia as it is a Dystopia.Rereading More's Utopia it occurred to me that, at least according to a modern understanding More's work, More's Utopia isn't a place where many would like to live; I doubt it was a place More would have liked to live, either. There is a lot that is satirical, and indeed quite nasty in Utopia.Did More really mean Utopia to be a model state? I think that for More it may have been an ideal place in the platonic sense, but it was never intended to be an ‘idyll’.‘Utopia’, then is as much a dystopia as it is a utopia. The opposition of ‘dystopia’ to ‘utopia’ might be based on a 19th century misreading of utopia as a ‘perfect place’ and not ‘no place’ as More’s rather playful Greek would have it. If that is the case, it is a misreading that is still current.Perhaps I’m just a pedant. Still, I would enjoy hearing More’s Utopia discussed on In Our Time.

Luke Chandler
BNW is most definitely Dystopian not Utopian as the guests put forward. As to really enjoy life and know its worth we must go struggle was what Huxley was saying. A world of instant gratification and consumerism without want and longing, yet stable interspersed with chemical hoildays is hell, and that is how many people live today and do not know they are even alive and will not until it is to late. Go to your town centre and look around you, many gammas and epsilons consuming rubbish and watching moronic feelies. The brave new world is here. Yet I like to think there is a Delta out there whilst on a break from their hoovering is reading the complete works of Shakespeare and is totally engrossed in it, untouched by Hypnopaedia, intellectual freedom intact and truly alive!

Violet-Huxley-Brave New World
The background to why Huxley formulated the structure of the novel was explained quite well.e.g.industrialization, time and motion and the Ford ideology,the advancement of science etc.Visionary perhaps, but the book was written in 1931, many aspects can be projected forward. It was to be noted that Huxley taught Orwell for aleast a term.The title is of course ironic.

SUSAN GREENWOOD - BRAVE NEW WORLD
An interesting discussion, prompting a re-read. I have always thought of Huxley's 'novels' as essays - especially this one which seems to me to about the very thorny subject of the role of suffering in human life. Huxley's exposition is brilliantly open ended and still thought provoking.

Steven Doby - Posiible subject for discussion
Just seen a documentary about the "Devils Bible" Codex Gigas. Could be an interesting subject for discussion.

michele roohani brave new world
i have to re-read BNW after this programme; i read it thirty years ago and it seems it's more relevant now than ever...i particularly liked david bradshaw's analysis.

Colin Lester, Brave New World
Re. Huxley's relationship with DH Lawrence, there's an interesting item from (if I remember aright from 45 years ago) the Memorial Volume edited by Julian Huxley (pub. Chatto & Windus 1965) where Martha Huxley, typing the mss. of Lady Chatterley, is said to have been asked by DHL not to use 'those 4-letter words' in Huxley's presence 'because it would shock him': an interesting view of a man who reportedly shocked some friends by talking loudly in a restaurant about the sex life of octopuses. There's also an interesting contribution from Pound who, when asked by Huxley about the value of his poetry, was 'able to advise him to confine himself to essays, of which he made himself the master' (I paraphrase throughout this note). It's in many ways a volume fascinatingly insightful (of contributors as well as Huxley & others), not least for being produced because Huxley's death was deemed to have been overlooked as it occurred on the same day as JFK's assasssination.

Helen Willis- Buddhism and Brave New World
It's been over 40 years since I read "Brave New World." It was an important book for me as a teen and lead to me reading much more stuff by Huxley as I aged. I think I thought as a teen that the things that Marx and the women saw at the savage village that upset the girl were copied after the things Gautama saw that made him search after spiritual truth. Weren't Buddha's disease, age, death, and an ascetic? I thought that Marx's shielded life was being paralleled with Prince Gautama, but then Marx doesn't find enlightenment at the end of his quest, just exile.

Brave New World
The question isn’t only if the world is brave, but also if it is new. What about Nietzsche’s philosophical concept of ‘Eternal return’, and some systems of thought such as Buddhism,which are attributed, wrongly, to belong exclusively to eastern philosophical and religious tradition? It seams that believe that it isn’t new, works as a driving force of that story.The story itself is title oriented. It is constructed around the title, so any speculations about possible literary influences, though not entirely unjustified, are of lesser importance for understanding its origins. And a battery supplies the power to any device, the title is a “driving” or inspirational force but also partly disconnected from the meaning of the story. The quotation from Shakespeare sounds as the greatest curse ever spoken. But who can be angry with fellow human beans permanently? They are selling old stories as new onesand have tendency of forgetting their meaning but, they also don’t always know what they are doing. In order to show that there have been people prior me to with similar views I have call upon Nietzsche and others, but it wouldn’t be right to play that game strictly. The case isn’t that the world’s story is repeated in its totality but only the best parts.

Angela Howe, In Our Time series
Thank you for the most stimulating and enjoyable programme on Radio4. Happy Easter.

Brave New World - The Tempest
I have just re-read the Tempest, in the amazing new RSC Shakespeare edition, and was blown away (again). Given Melvyn's intimate association with this great work, why don't you have a programme devoted to it? Bate's amazing RSC version of the play has just come out, extracted and enhanced from the RSC complete, so it would be a topical topic. Bate and Bragg on Shakespeare's Tempest. Now there's a brave new programme...

Claudia Funder - Happy Easter
THanks all at IOT for a wonderful programme. I love the podcast and the newsletter. Yes, I too realised I need to go back and re-read Brave New World. I especially like Melvyn's writings on walking through London after the show. See you in Hyde Park sometime. Best of Easter wishes to the full team. Claudia FunderMelbourne

Dennis Chang -- IOT
All good -- just back from two weeks away, and it's been great to catch up with the last couple of programs. (Though I thought Baconian Science a bit more interesting than Huxley: perhaps a case for not having an entire program on a single novel?) Still, I've gotta take issue with Melvyn and with Will below: Rhodri Lewis wasn't being a pedant when he insisted that Bacon didn't say knowledge is power, for the excellent reason that Bacon never did get around to saying anything of the sort. It'd be boring to go into this now, but here's a link to a useful further discussion:https://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=7115Bacon thought that certain kinds of knowledge did confer power on their possessors, but the phrase as it's attributed to him is a simple error. He was talking about the relative merits of *God's* knowledge and power, not ours, much less about any equivalency between knowledge and *political* power. This ain't rocket science and I really don't know what Melvyn and Will find so hard to swallow. (For the record, and despite Will's suggestion below, the actual Latin of the Meditationes sacrae reads, in a parenthesis on divine foreknowledge, "quam et ipsa scientia potestas est", the vagaries of which I'll leave to those of you who've studied Latin.) Otherwise, keep up the good work, Cheers, Dennis

Marjory Brave New World
I enjoyed the discussion. Like many, I read BNW in my late teens and really enjoyed it. Re-reading a few years ago, I was quite disappointed. It has some interesting ideas in it, but is full of long turgid descriptions about what life is like. It fails to work as a *novel*.

BRAVE NEW WORLD
I was surprised that at least some of the experts thought that Huxley was broadly sympathetic to the regime portrayed in BNW. In his preface to Brave New World Revisited he says that although he had set BMW in the 26th century, he now tought that "the horror may be upon us in a single century" The abiding impression I took from the novel, which I read years ago admittedly, was of a world spiritually and morally dead, with the population dehumanised and rigidly controlled. I find it hard to believe that Huxley with his great interest in the spiritual, which manifested itself more openly in his later work would have welcomed the world he describes. Was his novel not a warning of what would happen if the trends he identified went unchecked?And does he not adopt the same technique as Orwell in 1984 in using the future as a backdrop to highlight his concerns about the present, except that BNW is more satirical? A point not fully developed in the programme was prominence given to Freud. It is not entirely clear whether the year in which the novel is set, AF 632 is the year 632 of Our Freud or of Our Ford, and indeed by AF632 the names seem almost have merged into one. Stephen Gore

Brave New World
The forerunner of both Brave New World and 1984 is Zamyatin’s We. Zamyatin himself had lived and worked in England and derived his inspiration from HG Wells’s novels of dystopian social fantasy, a form he used to reveal the defects of the existing social structure and not to construct some paradise of the future. Writing in 1930, Huxley undoubtedly owed to Zamyatin the basic concept of a critique of the future based on an extrapolation of certain present trends. Huxley also shared Zamyatin’sconcern about man’s enslavement to the demands of a society whose rationale isthat of technology-in Zamyatin’s case his future world is an almost successful attempt to subordinate man to the laws of mathematics and engineering, while Huxley sees the chief danger to humanity in a surrender to the logic of thebiological and genetic sciences. What is absent in Huxley, however, is a sense of the power of ideology: BNW is apolitical, whereas for Zamyatin writing in Petrograd,ideology+terror was the main threat; he predicted Stalinism. Orwell shared this revulsion from the tyranny of ideology, saw Stalinism realized before his eyes and,projecting it slightly forward in time, predicted its evolution in terms that made itappallingly clear to even the insular and politically complacent British. Both BNW and We deal with the rebellion of the primitive human spirit against a rationalized,mechanised, painless world, and both stories are supposed to take place about 600 years hence. Happiness and freedom , love and sex are all incompatible. Ties like motherhood, fatherhood and the family have been abolished. Stability is the chiefgoal. The problem of ‘human nature’ is solved by prenatal treatment, drugs andhypnotic suggestion and society is highly stratified. Huxley in BNW shows proto-fascist tendencies:high culture for the few, elitist rule, a denigration of mass communication(press, cinema, democracy) and mass happiness is inferior. Orwelltook his inspiration from We more than BNW because the latter shows a life that is stratified for no reason,there is no economic aim nor power hunger nor strong motive for those at the top, and life has become pointless and would not endure. As Zamyatin shows in We, imagination is the disease in a totalitarian state. There is aneed for human sacrifice and the worship of a leader with divine-like attributes. All you get in BNW are electric shocks, pneumatic bliss and pleasure, ho hum. People aresocially controlled by being brain-washed into well-being, having their wants curtailed. Our present awareness of the twin threats to civilized humanity-science and ideology as ends in themselves- has been aroused more by the power of Huxley andOrwell than the work of politicians. It was Zamyatin that grasped the potential in the literary technique(Dystopian tradition) of an English writer of one generation, gave it a new dimension and handed it on to two masters of the next generation.

Michael Moore, Brave New World
I first read Brave New World many years ago. I agree with the view that it is an odd novel, I always put this down to Huxley's almost vicious insight and his pessimistic expression of the nightmare society that he could see as a potential and partly realised result of the modern industrial age. It has remained a 'relevant' novel in that it speaks to the underlying anxiety created by the thought of spiritual values and aspirations denied, thwarted and suppressed by a totalitarian state. The obsessive secularism we experience in our society today is enough to ensure the survival of this work as a satirical polemic against state control. Thank you for - as always - a very enjoyable program.

jane Aldous Huxley - Brave New World
Mmm...a visionary with no answers but plenty of directed talent. The intimations of truth are etched deeply in the chaotic miasma we wade through generation after generation but paradoxically, in such a context, evoke endless distortions of themselves. The 'phoenix from the ashes' will always be central to our story....and one day, we humans will perhaps understand, scientifically...or not, the real nature and function of life and especially of love. It's staring us in the face but we've developed collective cataracts. The head cannot be severed from the heart....we're all struggling with this paradigm whether we're consciously aware of it or not. Interesting if distressing programme - thanks enormously. (sorry, just couldn't bite my tongue on this one!) Best wishes to all.

LDW - Brave New World
Generally, I'm a big fan of IOT. But today's discussion struck me as below par. There was too much synopsis: if we've read it we KNOW what the story is and don't need reminding. There was a lot of very shallow talk about 'dystopia' - a word which appears in the description of the programme.To me, BNW is NOT dystopian. As was finally conceded in the last two minutes, it is simultaneously utopian and dystopian: the whole merit of the book is that Huxley does not make value judgments (at least overtly) about which aspects of his possible future are beneficial to man.The people ARE happy, sickness HAS been eliminated, children do NOT have birth trauma or parental neglect. These things are things we would all wish for. The question Huxley poses is, 'what is the price of this perfect world,