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AUDIENCE COMMENTS |
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An opportunity for the audience to have their say on In Our Time. |
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RHETORIC
History of Speech: Joe Moore
The 14th and 15th century age brought about the age of the great speaker. No longer were simple truths the focus of speech. A speaker must also have a rich life history, deep knowledge of political affairs and personal ethics. This is where the ideal statesmen emerges; what went wrong?
Peter Somerville - Rhetoric
Aristotle's Philosophy - rhetoric - "-by which the truth will be achieved." Aristotelean Physics, the product or result of the above Aristotlean Philosophy, is no longer taught. It is not taught because that is not how the world or universe works. Why then is Aristotelean Philosophy still taught and used as the basis of politics, economics and sociology? This question is not rhetorical. It requires a rational explanation, not an Aristotelean 'reasonable' explanation. Aristotle's reason spawned the crystal spheres and the sun orbiting the earth, it was not rational.
Absence of Byzantium: David Swinson
The otherwise excellent programme on rhetoric was curious in its complete lack of acknowledgement of the essential role played by Byzantine intellectuals in preserving for us the literature and rhetorical skills of Classical Greece. We jumped from Augustine to the Italian Renaissance skipping over almost a thousand years of East Roman or Byzantine Imperial existence. The Byzantines can be critised for introspection and undue regard for the past but seemed to be obsessed in their regard for Classical rhetoric as an intellectual tool and the preservation of a Classical literary style.Without them I daresay the subject of the programme would not have been discussed. sincerely
Nancy Weitz -- Rhetoric
Alan Barker's comment about Osama bin Laden's unornamented, modest rhetoric is expressed in the western tradition as well. The "modesty topos" was a well-worn strategy in Renaissance writing for displaying "sprezzatura" -- an apparently unstudied, natural elegance of demeanor. (The contradiction built into this is fascinating.) In a warped way, the modesty topos manifests itself in the American consciousness. The folksy, downhome, southern style is politically popular because it aims to represent a trustworthy "regular guy" character -- as if anyone more articulate than oneself is as dangerous as Milton's silver-tongued Satan.
Rosemary Hamilton on Melvin's Rhetoric newsletter
About your newsletter on the Rhetoric programme: I would like to suggest that rhetoric was more that just 'teaching and thinking about speaking' - it seems always to have been used for specific and important (a great deal of it 'nationally' important) purposes. Surely 'progress' did come about through the use of rhetoric, at least until 16/17C. I would think that it would only have been natural for Augustine, as one of the great intellects as well as theologians of European history, to use rhetoric in his Christian deliberations. You refer to Pericles's funeral speech as an example used by Churchill. It is interesting (to me anyway) that the surviving notes for Churchill's radio speeches apparently include no reference to this speech, but given the similarity of the respective dangerous situations in Athens and in Britain at the time I would think he must surely have had it in mind. In the Rex Warner translation Pericles (or rather Thucycdides) uses the phrase 'blood and toil', which seems very like a hint of Churchill's famous phrase. (Of course he must have translated this speech himself in the course of his education.)Incidently, it seems only recently that it has become acceptable for MPs to use notes for speeches: in the rhetorical tradition of course no notes were allowed (to Churchill's own cost, when he forgot his argument in the middle of his maiden speech).
Alan Barker: Rhetoric in two traditions
Two interesting and related examples to illustrate the urgent importance of rhetoric in our time. The first is well documented: Colonel Tim Collins' speech to the battlegroup of the 1st Battalion of the Royal Irish Regiment, given on 19 March 2003 on the Iraqi border before the most recent invasion. The speech is freely available on the web. So also is an eye-witness report, apparently by Sarah Oliver of the Mail on Sunday, who is quoted as saying: "He delivered the speech completely off the cuff. He said to me, 'I'll have to say a few words to the men to explain to them why they should take their anthrax drugs and malaria pills, or they just won't bother'. It just grew and grew into something magnificent - it made you realise the true meaning of the term 'rallying cry'." The other example is from Navid Kermani's fascinating essay 'Silent Sirens', published in the TLS on 1 October 2004. Kermani discusses the use of rhetoric in the Arabic tradition - 'a form of verbal magic' that Nasser was able to use to electrify his audiences. 'More recent Arab leaders,' he writes, 'do not possess Nasser's rhetorical skill, which accounts for their lack of effect.' One notable exception, in his view, is Osama bin Laden, whose 'exquisite Arabic' casts its own spell. As a businessman, bin Laden will apparently not have received the rhetorical training of a well educated theologian; as a result, his 'antiquated Arabic' sounds 'simple, clear and modest'. 'In fact,' says Kermani, 'his rhetoric works precisely because of the absence of rhetorical ornament, and a conscious modesty of expression.'
burton...rhetoric
tony wood's comment that rhetoric is a tool to communicate thought is not disputed, but in our era, when speeches are written by talented hacks, are those who deliver them to be judged for their skill as actors rather than for the quality of their thought
Neil Foxlee Rhetorical connections
While browsing a certain Internet bookseller for books on rhetoric, I came across the following title: 'The Rhetoric of Blair, Campbell and Whately'. You may be wondering who Whateley is, but in fact they are collectively described as the triumvirate of great British rhetoricians of the late 18th and 19th centuries... On another topic, there is an obvious connection between rhetoric and pragmatics in linguistics (cf. Austin's theory of speech-acts).
Nancy - Rhetoric
I strongly recommend dusting off your Kenneth Burke -- a Rhetoric of Motives and his other neglected (out of print) books.
Tony Woodd...............Rhetoric
"What tangled webs" we, being humans, weave..Rhetoric is a tool to communicate thought,it's quality is determined by the quality of thought and clarity of mind,and it could argued that this is determined by a consistent and genuine interest in integrity.. To "know thyself" is a position from which, it seems,we can choose integrity or find no other choice, nothing else is real........
Neil Foxlee Deconstruction and rhetoric PS
'Considered as persuasion, rhetoric is performative but when considered as a system of tropes [ie figures of speech], it deconstructs its own performance' (Paul De Man, Allegories of Reading, p.131). To put it another way, you can be moved and persuaded by Martin Luther King's 'I Have A Dream' speech, but once you start analysing it, you realize that it relies on the same rhetorical devices (repetition etc)used by demagogues. The morality and validity of an argument is independent of the effectiveness or otherwise of its presentation.
Edmund Rhetoric
I've been inspired to go and rouse a rabble.
Ed Rhetoric
Can I recall a better programme on this undervalued and now understudied subject? (Do you see I tried to use a rhetorical question there?) It was exceptionally interesting and very informative, I agree with Jeff that it would have been great if the Sophists and the Pre-Socratics could have been explored a little further but in order to cover the whole span of history, from Corax and Tisias to Disraeli and Darwin so brilliantly as the progamme did it is understable that an in depth analysis wasn't possible. However, from this, I must add my support to Patrick's call for further reading as the short time that the programme has is enough only to pique ones interest. Finally, if any of the guests were worried about the potential irony of speaking on a radio show about rhetoric, they need not have, as I felt they all showed an excellence of technique of which Corax would have been proud.
Neil Foxlee The 'Discovery' of Cicero's and Quinti
One of your contributors referred to Cicero's speeches and letters and Quintillian's works having been 'discovered' in the 15th century. Would these, by any chance, have been among the Classic texts (such as most of Aristotle's works) that were lost to the West, but preserved in the great libraries of Moorish Spain, where they were studied by Arab scholars? In which case, they were no more 'discovered' than Columbus 'discovered' America. Pedantry and political correctness apart, another thought-provoking programme on a subject of perennial importance (pardon the alliteration). The connection with PR and political spin was made, but there is also a link with postmodernism. Thus Derrida's deconstruction (and when can we expect a programme on him?) can be seen as a form of rhetorical analysis, undoing the truth-claims of texts by unpicking their rhetorical moves. For if all discourse is rhetorical, what is truth (itself a discursive category) but 'a movable host of metaphors, metonymies and anthropomorphisms'(Nietzsche, 'On Truth and Lies in a Non-moral Sense')?
Sarah, Rhetoric
AS a graduate in Rhetoric from the University of California at Berkeley I was delighted to hear an entire programme devoted to the subject which is as far as I can tell rather unfashionable and largely unheard of in this country - except with as one of your guests said, derision. I am currently teaching at a school in Manchester and try wherever possible to slip rhetoric in to my teaching even though it isn't on any A level syllabuses. I am going to spend a lesson listening to the programme again as I am teaching Shakespeare (Antony & Cleopatra) and have intoduced the students to the joys of rhetoric including giving them a list of figures which they love. Someone mentioned 'Alexandrian style' which I would be interested in hearing more about. As always the programme was a joy to listen to - it adds a breath of intellectually fresh air to every week - something sorely lacking in our time.
Jeff Lewis Rhetoric
I was disappointed that the epistemological argument underlying pre-socratic rhetoric and the much maligned sophists wasn't explored further. It was stated that Protagoras denied the possibility of absolute truth. It seems that this is the principled cornerstone of rhetoric, before Plato besmirched it by setting up a series of straw men in his 'dialogues', Sophists who were only apparently interested in the poltical use of Rhetoric,, rather than its truth claims. For Protagoras, and earlier pre-socratics like Heraclitus, as no absolute, unchanging truth could be spoken of, the best we could do was use language to fashion metaphors that may carry something of the insights opf the wise. A robust defence of the sophists 'epistemology, against the attacks of Plato and Aristotle, is given in Pirsig's ' Zen and the Art of Motorcyle Maintenance'. You can skip the narrative and just read the parts when he reconstructs his past in trying to make sense of the concept of quality.
Nancy Weitz - Rhetoric
How refreshing to see this subject get airtime! I'm a firm believer that Rhetoric and Reasoning should once again have a central place in education at all levels. I've assigned parts of Hitler's Mein Kampf to university students to perform rhetorical analyses -- particularly to find the fallacies. This has always proved a powerful and popular exercise. Instead of demonizing and dismissing "rhetoric" and "argument", how much better off we'd be if we all learned to analyze what people in power and the media say to us.
patrick powell - a reading list?
This is not s comment on a particular programme, but a suggestion given there is no 'contact us' button. Has the producer considered appending a brief reading list on the website with each weekly topic description? Such a list might be divided into books of interest to lay readers, and more complex writing for those undaunted by such tomes. The suggestion has surely been made before, but it is worth repeating. I'm sure Melvyn's panel marshalled each week to illuminate us would be able to suggest appropriate works.
Neil Strevens
I am fully in favour of serious radio, but this morning's discussion strikes me as being a forum for those taking part to display their ability to use words normally unknown even to the more intellectual strata of society. My ears have glazed over after 15 minutes, but I do agree with the presenter who suggested that the work was very dull.
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