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AUDIENCE COMMENTS
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HEROISM
PAUL CARTLEDGE - contributor - Heroism
In case listeners would be interested in following up on our discussion of Heroism (May 6th), here is a suggestion for further reading, with some comments by me... Ruth Padel *I'm A Man. Sex, Gods and Rock 'n' Roll* (Faber & Faber, 2000). Dr Padel is best known for her prizewinning poetry and her acute poetry criticism in the public prints, but she is by training a Classical literature specialist and by avocation a cultural commentator on masculinity. The Gods whom Wolfgang Petersen's *Troy* movie has contrived to edit out of the picture here occupy the front of the stage. Padel literalizes the sloppy rock-lit metaphors of 'diva' and 'God' by showing just how much, and in what precise ways, modern pop stars are like ancient Greek Gods and Goddesses. One Greek God stands out from the crowd, Dionysus, God of wine and metamorphosis, divine inspiration of all ancient Greek theatre performance - the ancient equivalent of modern stadium rock and pop. 'The point of his rituals', Padel writes, 'was violent change in consciousness and feeling'. Anyone who has attended a stadium concert by a mega rock star will know what she is talking about. And no one will deny that the feeling felt by 'fans' for these rock 'Gods' and 'divas' is a form of hero-worship. But how healthy is that? On the one hand, rock 'is there as a shared world to go into. It offers you power to change how you are in the claustrophobic, unjust world you have landed in'. On the other hand, 'look at the wreckage under the wheels of the rock 'n' roll chariot'. That sort of doubleness or polarity is somehow very ancient Greek. 'Nothing to excess' was one of their mottoes - but it was honoured as much in the breach as in the observance.
PAUL CARTLEDGE - contributor - Heroism
In case listeners would be interested in following up on our discussion of Heroism (May 6th), here is a suggestion for further reading, with some comments by me...Paul Cartledge *Alexander the Great. The Hunt for a New Past* (Macmillan, 2004). What can there possibly be new to say about Alexander, one of the most written-about characters not just in the ancient world but in all human history? My 'hook' is that Alexander was man-the-hunter incarnate. Like all elite Macedonians he was brought up to ride and to hunt fearsome wild beasts such as the boar and the mountain lion. From that background, I argue, it was a relatively easy step to become a hunter of men. The most recent trend in modern Alexander scholarship, reacting to the Western incursions into lands where Alexander once conquered 24 centuries ago, is to stress the extent of his strictly gratuitous slaughterings of native peoples, in what are now Pakistan and Iran especially. Yet for the ancient Macedonians and for many Greeks, both ancient and modern, Alexander was and is a hero. Literally, in that he claimed to be descended from Achilles on his mother's side and from Heracles on his father's. Figuratively, in that he lived up to the Homeric heroic ideal 'ever to be best and among the first'. Taking Achilles as a model, and the Gods Dionysus and Heracles as his rivals, Alexander in effect chose a brief and everlastingly glorious life to a long span of mortal mediocrity. For that, he was worshipped as a God, not just after his death but actually in his own lifetime, and by Greeks and Macedonians as well as by non-Greeks such as the Egyptians. Of Alexander's courage, for which the Greek word meant 'manliness', there was never the shadow of a doubt.
PAUL CARTLEDGE - contributor - Heroism
In case listeners would be interested in following up on our discussion of Heroism (May 6th), here is a suggestion for further reading, with some comments by me... William Ian Miller *The Mystery of Courage* (Harvard University Press, 2000). Bill Miller is a Professor of Law at the University of Michigan and an expert in bloodtaking and peacemaking in Iceland of the sagas, among other things. Miller's tale of courage's mystery ends with the ghastly slaughter of the U.S. Civil War and begins with the ancient Greeks, roughly mirroring the ambitious scope of our own programme. Miller's first case study is the Spartan Aristodemus, who survived the annihilation of the famous 300 Spartans at Thermopylae in 480 BC (an incapacitating eye disease kept him out of the fray) but compensated - or rather, over-compensated - for his survival by his suicidal behaviour at the battle of Plataea in 479, in which the Spartans were chiefly responsible for the final defeat of the Persian invasion of Greece on land. Aristodemus was a hero - he died for his country and for the ideal of a free Greece. But he was a flawed hero, an early case of 'survivor syndrome', as he fought recklessly, almost suicidally - to try to blot out the shame at having survived Thermopylae.
Paul Sanderson HEROES
From time to time a member of a primate group would perform exceptional behaviour to assist the position of their group. It may be selfish, just to further his (almost certainly not her) position, but that is irrelevant, what is relevant is that the tribe benefits and it is recognised. (eg higher status etc). Inevitably female heroes (the bravery shown at the loss of a child) are not 'recognised', as the act is often hidden, child care is continuous not 'peaky', competative and 'exceptional'. But let's not forget who brings up the heroes in the first place. As culture/ civilisation progressed the tribe/vilage /city was better able to express their gratitude to heroic behaviour. It would advantageous to the group if more people could perform heroic acts, therefore 'stories' were told to assist the 'education' of young men, thus increasing the likelihood heroic acts would be repeated and therefore the status / cause of their group. Admiral Cunningham in 1941 at Crete said 'It takes three years to build a ship; it takes 300 to build a tradition.' Would he have said that without the Nelsonian example? It's that simple? We hear about the Romans and Greeks endlessly because their heroes largely suceeded, and Western culture likes to emulate them. Please let's hear more about the likes of James Clark Maxwell, something tangible. PS Nothing is unambiguous in human behaviour - I struggle why some rare societies don't appear to have human heroes. eg Tibetan?
Bev Rowe - general comment
This is an amazing programme. It is incredible that a mass medium can have a programme of this quality.
Louise:Heroes
very interesting debate, one point on the subject of Jesus as a hero: while he was being tried and tortured then crucified Jesus is often seen as passive and helpless and this in the view of your panel disqualifies him from heroic status. The reality is that at any time he could have called down the armies of heaven and had legions of angels come and set him free. It was not nails that held Jesus on the cross, it was a love of truly heroic proportions, the love of God for a fallen humanity, which kept Jesus on the cross until the job he came to do of saving us from our sins was finished. That is why Jesus is the greatest hero of all time and always will be.
mark crompton
about the - debate after the show - debate. obviously your slot is fixed - most shows would like to be longer and you have what you have. But wouldn't it be possible to continue for an open ended slot - unforced, no obligation, but a little looser, either on one of the digital slots or online. It wouldn't get to everyone, but there's a good chance it would be accessible to most. Here's to the show that kicks the bing out of dumbing down
Ann Barton: heroes
The heroic idea got into our language from the classical world and by the 15th Century Viking and early Irish heroes were merely folk memories - Chaucer wrote about Troy, but not about Deirdre. Arthur was part of myth, but Alfred was not. Heroism is largely a matter of what the men admire. Women may admire heroines, but they do not have the same need for a role-model if they can have a prince charming who will fit their aspirations - and they will accept some pretty rough approximations at times, luckily for some of you. The Vikings had problems with Jesus when converting to Christianity; Clovis, the Frankish king, couldn't understand how the apostles let it happen; and an Anglo-Saxon poem, The Dream of the Rood, depicts the Cross as a warrior's chariot, shining with gold and jewels. This site shows, though, that lots of us want to explore the supplementary issues. I don't much go for heroes myself, but if I did, Charlie would still not be my darling.
Heroism; the Newsletter
I agree with Melvyn the Newsletter has an interest beyond the programme by discussing and/ or highlighting the various ideas and threads that the programme could have, or did spawn. In other words Charlies got it wrong and Melvyn has got it just right. PeterK
Helen Morris Heroism
The interesting thing about this subject to me is the question of who decides whether someone can be regarded as a hero. In times past I suppose it was the writers of Ancient Greece and Rome and before them, the ancient story tellers who were feted in every village for relaying the news, usually in stories, which became much embellished over time. Later troubadours celebrated heroes in song and in song. Heroism would be perpetuated in these ways for centuries. Those who wrote history books must have been responsible for hero-creation more recently. For instance, I remember the Unstead books from my Junior school whose stories were shamelessly biased in favour of the British. In present times heroes are more quickly discovered and can then be as quickly toppled by the media. Even Nelson Mandela, possibly one of the greatest heroes of modern times, may soon find his reputation under threat, according to a trailer I saw on TV today. It would seem that it is much harder to be a hero now, as the truth of our goings-on is so much more easily discovered by the use of communication technology. Therefore, if some one is made a hero now and remains a hero for a lifetime then it must be a great achievement either of perfect moral rectitude or very impenetrable secrecy!
Martin: Why only 'heroes' from the classical world
Well, why? What about the heroes and hero-sagas from our little corner of Europe? Cuchullain, Gwyn, Bran, Fionn Macumhail, Arthur and his knights. Why did the programme only use the Greek and Roman models and ideas of heroism? Had a more diverse range of heroes been picked then we could have also had examples of female heroes too! Bodica or Scathach... the latter of whom was a female who trained male warriors. It is sad how historians often leap to the classical world and ignore our own rich and diverse range of myths and legends which often have their roots in times akin to, if not before, the classical myths. After all, modern society is not without its influences from cultures other than that of the Greeks and Romans... in case this had escaped anyones attention. For a brief example, the early (Culdee) church in these Isles was a fusion of our own (already formed) philosophy and that of the incoming belief sytem. I rest my case. Its called "In OUR time"
tony woodd.......re..Heroism programme
Hi Melvyn.....The "Hero" the epitome of strength and fighting skill..One who successfully serves a cause, deemed good,from a specific conditioned mind perspective,in opposition to another specific conditioned mind perspective. Jesus,it was suggested,wouldn't fit the bill as a hero."forgive" and "turn the other cheek"are of course, not the words of a hero, but a saviour,set on saving us from ourselves.His perspective was,I suggest,entirely different.From beyond the fear/violence of the conditioned mind.... How about a programme looking beyond the view of conditioned realities? Realities which give rise to further psychological content,the root of which is fear and the motivation of all violence...The "Krishnamurti" material and Eckhart Tolle's book "The Power of Now" might be good research sources...
David Handforth - the Hero
Always impressed by the programme and well aware of the constraints imposed by time limits - the more so by the reduction for the repeat edition. Nevertheless, I felt today's programme was very disappointing in the slant it took on the hero, fascinating though it was in itself. What about very early heroes such as Gilgamesh? What about the hero as protagonist - Antigone (since examples of early women heroes, mythical or not, was limited to a single military heroine) - and Prometheus? What about Beowulf and the antecedents for the Nordic-Germanic hero? Siegfried? Or shouldn't we mention the war? The medieval heroic tradition - Roland and Oliver and el Cid? The anti-hero - Robin Hood? Milton's Satan? I just feel that the presentation was more than usually restricted despite the obvious and usually admirably managed limitations and presented a rather limited view of the hero.
David Pearce - Heroines
Another fascinating programme but I think it was a pity that no time was found to mention more women in the context of heroism. What about the redoubtable Sichelgaita, wife of Robert Guiscard of whom John Julius Norwich in "The Normans in Sicily" wrote: "...she saved many a dangerous if not desperate situation by her courage and example. At such moments, charging magnificently into the fray, her long hair streaming from beneath her helmet, deafening the Norman armies with huge shouts of encouragement or imprecation, she must have looked - even if she did not altogether sound - worthy to take her place among the daughters of Wotan; beside Waltraute, or Grimgerda or even Brunnhilde herself." They do not build them like that these days.
David M Drinkwater
Thankyou for your programme which easily is in the top three of current BBC programmes. This is what broadcasting should be like.
Ian Blakey Prometheus Vinctus
I thought I heard Prof. Cartledge throw away the remark this morning that "we now think that P.V. was not written by Aeschylus" I had not thought about it for almost 50 years ( God help me), but I remembered writing an essay in Classical Honour Mods exam to this effect in 1957. The young Blakey was undoubtedly very learned in his argument, but I have totally forgotten why. John G. Griffiths (whom Prof.Cartledge may remember,if he had met him, he would not forget him ) as an examiner at the time remarked of the essay, with which I remember being rather proud, "Ah, my dear Ian, a pleasant jeu d'esprit".,but I think I got high marks for it. I would be interested and grateful if you could give me sources and further information on current thinking or a telephone number to ian.blakey@which.net
Margaret Lee The Anti-hero
Enjoyed discussion today; very consoling in present times to think of stoic endurance etc. Would like to know how the 19th Century anti-hero fits in - Heathcliff?
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