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AUDIENCE COMMENTS |
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An opportunity for the audience to have their say on In Our Time. |
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CYNICS
rimas Cynicism
Cynism - was perfect programm. Best part of it was very shoking discussion about Jesus.
Nick Wills, Cynicism
Is this subject not so much about people being right to be true to themselves, and never be partisan to any grouping that divides one person from another, but also to display the noblest their influenced selves can be: The Good Samaritan possibly the best, although least understood, example.
John Moles - response to responses to Cynicism
Can't comment on use of 'f'-word - forbidden to do so by my legal representatives, my University, and assorted BBC heavies (cynical allusion to producer and researcher of programme, by whose enthusiasm, commitment, research expertise and moving devotion to the ideals of public service broadcasting Miriam Griffin and I - as live-radio virgins [shock! horror! delete!] - were quite bowled over. Would, however, like to register relief and gratitude that at least some listeners interpreted it as appropriately Cynic and morally challenging/didactic. Apologies to those who didn't. Islam did contribute to the preservation of the Cynic tradition: for example, some stories about/sayings of Diogenes are found only in the Arabic tradition. The historical authenticity of such material - even more than in the Greek and Roman contexts - is highly debatable, but the cultural phenomenon is interesting and important (and, of course, these days to be joyously celebrated). Gadara. The significance of Gadara in this context is that a Cynic presence there in Jesus' lifetime is likely. In fact, there is a textual problem in the NT texts at this point, but there are decisive arguments in favour of Gadara in a book that can be recommended to anyone interested in possible cross-cultural influences on Jesus: The Cosmopolitan World of Jesus (2004), by Carsten Peter Thiede. Thiede, who died untimely in 2004, was a maverick scholar who nevertheless had many brilliant insights and who certainly had the ability to make the subject come alive for non-specialists. One of the problems of bringing Jesus into contact with Gadarene Cynics (despite the episode of the Gadarene swine) is that the Gospels make it clear that Jesus' ministry stuck to villages and avoided large cities (with the possible exception of Jerusalem - it depends how many times you think Jesus went there). But there are two ways round this: (1) Jesus certainly ministered in the hinterlands of cities, as in the case of Gadara; (2)we don't know how he spent the first 30 years of his life. Might he have wandered in search of inspiration (to the Essenes, to Gadara, etc.) or might he have done carpentry work with his father in cities such as Sepphoris and Gadara (since Nazareth would offer only limited scope for this activity)? The dating of the Gospels. Most NT scholars date all the Gospels post-70 AD, because they think that some elements, notably Jesus' apparent prophecies of the destruction of the Temple and the Fall of Jerusalem, are anachronistic in relation to 30 AD (the probable date of Jesus' death) and presuppose composition post the Roman defeat of the Jewish revolt. But most scholars (there are, of course, dissenters) also think that Matthew and Luke follow two written sources: Mark and a hypothetical lost source conventionally referred to as 'Q' (from the German 'quelle' = 'source'). 'Q' is usually put in the 50s, that is, roughly contemporary with Paul and independent of him (Paul in fact preserves very few biographical data about Jesus). It so happens that the specific cases I cited of possible Cynic influence on Jesus all come from 'Q' (and there are others). (I didn't have time to say this on air.) So if you think that a (to some extent) Cynic Jesus is plausible, this representation belongs early in the Jesus tradition. Another, more general reason for thinking such Cynic traits early is that they present a socially radical Jesus, whose message was to some extent softened by Paul and later Christians. For example, the 'Cynic Jesus' rejects his family in favour of the 'family' of the Jesus movement but John makes Jesus on the cross construct a mother-son relationship between his mother and his disciple John and few NT scholars accept the historicity of this story. There is a mass of NT scholarship for and against the hypothesis of a Cynic-influenced Jesus and I've read a lot of it (references available on request). It's very repetitive and there is no reason for intelligent outsiders to be intimidated by its quality. In fact, it's very obvious that even ver
Cynicism
Melvyn Bragg. Your programme on the origins of Cynicism - or more properly the Cynic philosophy - was riveting. I had missed the connection in More's "Utopia " which is very justly drawn. But there is indeed a later take on this philosophy, in Dryden's poem "Absalom and Achitophel". I refer to the lines beginning "The Jews, a headstrong moody murmuring race... These Adam wits too fortunately free Began to dream they wanted liberty And when no rule, no precedent was found Of men by laws less circumscribed and bound, They led their wild desires to woods and caves And thought that all but savages were slaves." I am quoting from memory so there may be inaccuracies. I imagine Dryden was influenced in this opnion by the rugged half-baked philosophy of the horrible Levellers - though here I may be wrong as English history is not my subject. Since your series started my Thursday mornings are no longer my own. I long to get to Samuel Johnson and his circle. Yours in respectful admiration, Helen Lucy Burke, Dublin.
Ian Cutler -- Modern Cynicism Misrepresented
Thank you to the BBC for helping to rescue the Cynics from the dustbin of history. It was a pity that the show ended with a portrayal of modern cynicism as negative, nihilistic and self-loathing. Such an attitude may well exist today, as it probabley did 2,300 years ago, but this is not cynicism, just a misappropriation of the term for an altogether different approach to the world. Much more than a historical curiosity -- positive, modern cynicism is alive and well today. In an age of cynicism (both in the positive and negative sense) it is time for a serious reappraisal of this philosophy in terms of its relavence to our lives today.
Alice Tickel
foul language: I wish to object to the word "said". It's vulgar and shows a pompous disposition. Not at all what we cynics expect.
Charles Maine - Cynicism +
I understand that the works of the Greek philosophers were saved and finally passed back to us in Europe by erudite Islamic scholars. Was there any Islamic input on the works of the Cynincs? More generally, could we have a programme on what Islam has added to the font of human knowledge. I've tried to find out but it's hard to see what they did? I didn't find the programme on algebra very informative in that respect. Can someone help me, please? What scientific achievements can be ascribed to Islam? I mean I'd like actual examples so that I can quote them. Thank you.
David Nicholson Cynicism
Excellent as always. Dont like F word much but in this case used in its real meaning and not as a mindless insult. Pity no mention of Democrates. Part cynic, part stoic, part picurean. Anyway I came on to try to find out how you get new ,or different topics on In Out Time for the future. Any idea? I have two I would love researched and discussed.
Paul Briggs - Cynicism
Objections about the use of the coyly named 'F' word in a programme on cynicism, and the subsequent editing-out of it, causes cynics to laugh. Don't read Ian Cutler's book 'Cynicism from Diogenes to Dilbert' if you object to the odd profundity. Do read it to see Cutler bring the subject right up-to-date. Cynicism is alive and well in all its functions; so uncover the piano legs Father, the vicar's coming to tea!
Anna Kear - The Cynics
Fantastic! What exceiting radio, and amazingly relevant to present day. I'm going to read more on this, and taste lupins. I love the use of both language and action in the public domain.. the God of retail therapy is far more offensive. Keep on giving us the brain food Radio 4. Thanks
Mike Thurlow - The Cynics
I would hope that the average In Our Time listener, although surprised, would see that the use of the 'F word' was the only way to appropriately describe the topic under discussion at the time. It was somehow appropriate to the philosophy of the Cynics - any other euphemism fails to capture the reaction of contemporary Greeks. Anyway, remember the Greeks were not perfect beings lost in philosophical trances - they were reasonably vulgar and so for the Cynics to be seen as worse was quite a statement.
The Cynics
A fascinating programme, with interesting speculation on the possible influence of cynicism on Jesus. But hang on. The participants talked about the possibility of Jesus being influenced by Cynics in his life time. But nobody pointed out that the gospels were written many years after Jesus's death, most likely after the epistles of Paul. Doesn't this assumption distort the chronology? Whoever wrote the gospels had many years in which to attribute to Jesus sayings similar to those of the Cynics. Perhaps they should have had a new Testament expert on board.
foul language
I was appalled at the use of the 'F' word during this weeks programme on cynicism and was astounded that the offending outburst was subsequently dropped from the online version. IF Radio 4 saw fit that the foul language should go out live then why excercise some form of common sense in editing afterwards ? The last time I looked the definition of the said word was still a form of vulgar slang. I fully understand the context in which the word was used during the 'intellectual' debate but there was absolutely NO NEED. I sickened.
The Cynics
I was facinated by the connection of the Cynics with Gadara and Jesus of Nazareth. Rather than debate with them, Jesus, Matthew records, unfurled an amazing miracle - one of the strangest recorded - which caused the entire townsfolk of Gadara (with a populatoin estimated at 30,000 I understand) to come and see him and urge him to go!! Gadara - modern Um Qais in Jordan- is well worth a visit as the ruins are easily accessible and the place is quiet and has a lovely view over the Sea of Galilee. Thank you once again for one of your fascinating programmes. While not always in agreement with the content, it is good to have these deeper thoughts aired. Martin Beard
Andy Cragg - The Cinics - Dumbing Up?
I remember some time ago people complaining about the use of the word "shagging" on In Our Time. Dumbing down was mentioned. Well, well, well - what now?
Capell Aris: Cynicism
An interesting programme. But given that tomorrow is Trafalgar Day, why couldn't we have had a more topical programme dealing with, say, the concepts of Maritime Power and its influence on politics, science and culture (after Mahan, and developed by others, most recently Padfield)? I did write in with this suggestion months ago, but received neither acknowledgement nor reply.
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