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AUDIENCE COMMENTS |
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An opportunity for the audience to have their say on In Our Time. |
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THE ALPHABET
Ann Barton: alphabet
Yes,fascinating - and ilustrates the bias towards Greek and Roman elements in our heritage. Surely Linear B IS Greek (archaic)and we do not know what linear A is, which is why Michael Ventris didn't solve it. As at some time "boustrophedon" (a word I like, it means moving back and forth like an ox - bouos - ploughing, right to left and the next line in the opposite direction) was used as well as one-direction writing, it would be fairly simple to adopt either direction in different languages as the educational system developed, with the growth of trade, state administration etc. Poetry does not need writing, the oral tradition is probably better for it, but a one-world scientific community would be hamstrung without a large common vocabulary, and given the commercial weight of American English, together with the rather isolationist tendencies chrystalised in Chinese, the language of Einstein's work has the edge. Clive Durdle introduced the question "does Xtianity worship the alphabet?" - very interesting. But though the Book of Revelation was written in Greek, Jesus certainly did not think in terms of "logos", he spoke Aramaic, a Semitic language close to Biblical Hebrew, and quite alien to the Greek dualism you find in their account of Spirit and Body. In Genesis "God said: Let there be light" - and the spirit is "ruach" "breath" - the whole thing is action. Strictly is about the story of the development from Abraham to Jesus,but the ancient world believed that words had power, so it would come naturally for people to confuse the word of a god with his power personified (hence the seriousness of misusing the word "Jahweh" - close to sorcery). avoiding fundamentalism is difficult for the critics too! Language limits, as well as sustaining, our thoughts - and language and weltanschau both develop. Not always constructively!
William Milne, The Alphabet
I enjoy all the rummaging, particularly Wittgenstein and The Alphabet. The rough edges (slight fraying of tempers, sacrificing of background for vital details (like the state of sailors' hands!)) keeps away the dead hand of over-production and the tone bracingly urgent. But might it be time for an overview- an image of the histories? Failing that, perhaps a program on Alchemy, the discarded art-science whose imagery continues to be useful, or (some say)the extra-curricular discipline that has in fact succeeded in its program to control Nature. In anycase, more power to your elbows!
Jeanette English
Your contributors, Eleanor Robson and Alan Millard were excellent: concise, informative, clear. I was particularly sorry that Eleanor Robson was not given more time. Her comments were pithy and memorable.
caroline welch re: The Aplhabet
Great programme - but why virtually nothing about Chinese/Japanese systems? On a more general point, why do people like me who work full-time get the edited 30 minute version of the full programme? We can all use the 'Listen Again' facilities. Do you provide transcripts? Alternatively please ask the powers that be to let us have the full programme when it is repeated.
David Wallace: the alphabet
One thing I still don't understand is how we got from the right to left reading of Semitic alphabets to the left to right reading of Greek and our own Roman alphabets.
Henry Cox The Alphabet
I noticed that ogham was not covered. But it may need a programme of its own. Robert Graves (though not all accepted) puts ogham as Mediterranean, starting with African languages - hence a letter for ng, and later six new letters added for Greek (and ng dropped). Then the order of the letters changed as the original was for secret os sacred purposes: by the Phonecians - as said.
Christina J.Asquith. The Alphabet.
Once again we were treated to a fascinating and superb discussion in the current series of ' In Our Time'. I found the entire programme both illuminating and absorbing and a reflection of the high standard which ' In Our Time" never fails to achieve. Melvyn always succeeds in adding fuel to the fire of knowledge blazing like a beacon across the ages with his brilliant and thought-provoking questions whatever subject is under discussion! Best Wishes for a Joyful Christmas and a Peaceful New Year to Melvyn and the "In Our Time" team.
Conrad Taylor - Asian alphabets
It was claimed in the programme that the idea of an alphabetic system (which was strictly defined as having separate signs for consonants and vowels, therefore not a syllabary) was invented once and that all other alphabetic systems were derived from that. Therefore I listed with interest to hear how the Asian alphabetics systems such as Devanagari, Bengali, Tamil, Thai, Khmer etc -- which also have distinct consonants and vowels -- derived from the Canaanite model. However, this part of Asia was mentioned in but one sentence, and that a quick reference to the spread Eastwards of Arabic-based script. So: are these South and SE Asian alphabetic systems derived from Canaanite or are they an independent invention?
Alan Millard
Re the Alphabet edition, Melvyn mentioned a book written by Alan Millard which I think was entitled "The Infancy of the Alphabet". Could you please confirm this and let me know if the book is still available. A REPLY: The infancy of the alphabet is an essay in the journal World Archaeology vol 17 no.3. It isn't in many shops but a good library might have it. Alternatively, there are two books in the recommended reading section which might be of use.
David Singer; The Alphabet
No-one has mentioned Clive King's story, "The Twenty Two Letters", which gives an account of the invention of the alphabet extraordinarily like that told at the start of the programme. On the topic of Japanese. Their way of writing may have many advantages, but it is not great for literacy. A university educated architect I knew told me she had to resort to a dictionary routinely when reading the newspaper.
Sian Morgan/The Alphabet programme.
There should be an entire series presented by the man who told us about the thin king thinking. His knowledge is fascinating. He should have been given more programme time and the giggling women less.
Fred Wright, the alphabet
I agree with Martin Baines that alphabets may help adults learn a language, even if young children manage to cope when drilled in a non-alphabetic script. Two other points: (1) it was said in the programme that the alphabet was only invented once and it gave rise to all other alphabets. What about (for one example) the Korean hangul alphabet, invented, or at least made official, in the 1440s? (2) The programme might have touched on the topical question of whether pinyin will replace Chinese characters (if it doesn't, what chance is there of Chinese joining or replacing English as a world language?).
Susan Holden The Alphabet
I enjoyed the programme very much (as ever) - perhaps partly because I'm writing something about alphabet evolution in some reading material for Brazilian teenagers learning English! I think it was difficult to do without 'visuals'.... especially for the 'water sign' to M symbol sequence, But I learned a lot....and am especially taken with the link (not followed up because of time?) between Phoenician transcription without vowels (as in modern written Arabic and Hebrew ) and text messaging ... which I think is what could interest (Brazilian) teenagers! That apart - I do think more about the evolution of the symbols and the modern problems would be intersting - maybe as part of a 'written communication' topic? Hope there's more feedback.
Clive Durdle Alphabet
Is Xianity then a cult that worships the alphabet and the word? Logos, the word of God, alpha and omega, every word in the lambs book of life?
Martin Baines: Are Alphabets *really* as liberatin
Great programme as usual but I would like to add a slight dissenting voice on one of Melvyn's assumptions: namely that Alphabetic languages automatically mean higher levels of literacy. Modern China and Japan seem to contradict that assumption: modern Japan has a mixed writing system consisting of Logographs (Kanji) and 2 syllabies (Hiragana and Katakana) and has one of the highest literacy rates in the world. Similarly China uses a pure Logographic system (Hanzi) and has very high literacy rates. Perhaps any writing system is pretty easy to learn if taught well and young? Perhaps if Cuneiform or Hieroglyphics had survived to the modern day their countries would have as high literacy rates as China or Japan? Maybe what alphabets do is make it easier for foreigners or late starters to pick up the writing system?
Samuel Lapalme-Remis on the Alphabet
I enjoyed the program but would like to respond to the often-heard comment that the only thing that keeps the Japanese from adopting the alphabet is a reluctance (whether elitist or not) to abandon cultural traditions. In fact, there is no reason for them to adopt the alphabet on any grounds whatever. The Japanese have three scripts, the half-phonetic, half semantic kanji, which were imported from China about 1500, and two phonetic kana which were evolved from the Chinese script, rather similarly to the way in which the alphabet evolved from hieroglyphs. Taken together, these three scripts (all of which can be mixed in a single sentence) are enormously complicated and would seem to be in serious need of reform. But in fact only the Kanji are complex; the kana are extemely simple and efficient. If the Japanese government decided to implement a massive reform of the Japanese writing system, all they would have to do is eliminate the kanji, and then the Kana could be used on their own since they are phonetic and can be used to write anything. To use the alphbet instead would be completely uselss, since the Kana are uniquely crafted for the sound structure of the Japanese language. Yes, there are somewhat more of them than there are letters in the alphabet, but the effort of learning them when young is offset by the fact that since they represent full syllables, it takes less kana to write a Japanese word than it takes letters of the alphabet. But even an eliminition of Kanji would not be advisable, even if issues of culture and history are disregarded. It is possible to write sentences without Kanji; however such sentences are difficult to read because they are lacking the richness that semantic characters provide. Furthermore, Japanese is full of homonyms that can only be distinguished in writing by the Kanji in which they are written, and if these Kanji disappeared, thousands of words would become incomprehensible. Chinese characters were not well suited to the Japanese language and had they been exposed to the alphabet at the same time as they came in contact with Chinese writing, it is a good bet that the Japanese would have chosen the alphabet. But after 1500 years of refining a very complex system, they cannot change it without drastically impoverishing their language. There is much more to the preservation of this system than mere elitism.
John Wilkinson Possible topic for discussion
"Secrets of the Exodus: Did the Pharaohs Write the Bible?" is written by Messod and Roger Sabbah and puts forward the view that far from being slaves of Pharaoh, the exodus was of the priestly class, privileged and caught up in a deeply unpopular monotheism espoused by Akenaten. Having read the book I'm desperate to hear a decent debate on the subject. In Our Time would be the perfect vehicle..... The story involves Moses (Rameses I), the origins of aramaic script, Babylonian colonial expansion and more. And it could fit into the time available!
David Heathfield Alphabet
Great programme. The ordering of the letters in an agreed sequence reduces search costs immeasurably thereby improving our economic and intellectual lives. Who had this brilliant idea?
Cameron Rose on the alphabet
A very interesting discussion. Languages seem to get simplified with use - but that didn't seem to come over in the discussion. And are we only talking of cuneiform and hieroglyphics as the forerunners of the alphabet? What of the the other highly developed civilisations before 1000 BC? Something doesn't fit here.
P.Field,In Our Time
The professor may have been making fun of Mr Bragg when he said that cunieform could be used to run a space program as a tablet exists describing reentry data approaching earth for spaceships. Refer to the work of Zacharia Sitchin for more.
Juliette Leswell on The Alphabet
I think this was a terrific programme. It made me think about how extraordinary it is that the whole of our English language - in all its richness and expressiveness - can rest, as do many other languages, on the small, elegant foundation of the twenty-six letter alphabet. I particularly like the idea that every time I write the letter 'A', I'm using a symbol of the upside down head of an ox. Another unexpected example of the connectedness of our time with the past, in this case with the very beginnings of written language - the pictures that literally spoke, in the end, a million words. The immensity of the herd of inverted oxen let loose on the world since that little invention, and all that they and the other pictures have enabled us to say, is quite incredible. My thanks and appreciation to everyone involved in making the programme.
Trevor - The Alphabet
Stony is right in that the subject was not presented in an inspiring way. Rather, the impression was given that the symbols which make up the alphabet in its current form somehow enabled great literature to be produced. As I recall it, one of the speakers did correct this view by pointing out that speech comes before writing. To see the insufficiency of the alphabet, one only has to look at its official Czech and Polish forms. In fact, English is almost alone in Europe in trying to do without accents, hence the difficulty many people have in mastering reading and spelling. Does anyone think we should try to get down to something more phonetic?
Stony on The Alphabet
Does the lack of any comment on this week's topic indicate that listeners didn't feel inspired by the subject? I thought that we didn't hear enough about where the symbols came from and how they have evolved or indeed, about the deficiencies of the system - most languages have used special symbols and other letters causing havoc amongst computer keyboard designers.
Terry Hunt: The Alphabet
Why was no mention made about the two syllabaries which antedated the arrival of the alphabet to Greece? Minoan Linear A and Mycenaean Linear B were around on Crete and on the Greek mainland from around 1600 BC, so Greece was not an illiterate society. It would have been nice to hear views on whether Linear B influenced the Greek alphabet.
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