In June 1683, a man called Kara Mustafa made a journey to Vienna. That a Muslim Turk should come to a Catholic city was not unusual, but Kara Mustafa did so at the head of the Ottoman Army. Vienna was the capital of the Hapsburg Empire and he intended to take it.
The ensuing siege, a tale of blood and drama, has been held responsible for many things, from the invention of the croissant to the creation of Viennese coffee. But most importantly, it has been used to define a series of boundaries, between Europe and Asia, Christian and Muslim, Hapsburg and Ottoman, that influence the view between Vienna and Istanbul to this day.
Contributors
Jeremy Black, Professor of History at the University of Exeter
Andrew Wheatcroft, Professor of International Publishing at Stirling University
Claire Norton, Lecturer in History at St Mary’s University, London
Audience reactions to this edition
Julian Dakowski
At last found the opportunity to listen back to the Siege of Vienna programme. As of Polish descent, I just wondered how much would actually be said of the Poles arriving to 'save the day'. My father [of course proudly bias] always said "They were offered 'the keys of the city' and when Sobieski was asked how could the city repay him, he simply said: 'Just feed my men, and water the horses'!" Alarmingly typical; although it was interesting to hear of the looting of the tents. What you all seemed to miss - even post comment - was the many reasons for success that lay behind the blindingly effective machine of the Polish cavalry [an officer of which my father was at out break of WWII] not least their "ANGEL WINGS" [a full mounted costume of which used to stand in the hall of my Aunt's family home]. It was the noise that they made at full gallop; the noise alone - like a howling wind - was enough to scare the living daylights. A bit more weight, and for that, excitement to the story... it did deserve it. Thank you for your consistently interesting programmes.
Pete - Vienna
I’m an American and I naturally can’t resist a little jibe at the English here :) Great show on Vienna and I learned a couple of things, but I found Magda’s comment below pretty amusing; not sure if she intended it to be funny in its pith but it was. When I was listening I was struck by the question that was something to the effect of what the English contribution was. The answer was a lot of praying in churches, and this was emphasized a couple of times. That appears to have been the extent of it. Then when we got to the Polish part -- where a group of what was made to sound like a small fraction of the 18k went charging with outdated equipment into a horde (I use the term for effect only) of 80-100k and driving them off the field -- it did feel under treated. Would have liked more facts. By the way, from this side I can tell you that Casimir Pulaski is considered the father of the US cavalry, aptly enough; and, according to the internet, could be urban myth, the bagel came about by a Viennese Jewish baker making it in honor of Sobieski to mimic the stirrup (apparently Sobieski was a horse fanatic). In fairness to the show though, it was more about the clash of cultures I suppose. Great piece in any case.
Elizabeth Balsom Siege of Vienna
When I visit my old penfriend in Vienna we often drive over to Perchtholdsdorf for coffee and a stroll around. We usually pass the wall bearing a plaque commemorating the 1683 siege, so it's probably not all that hard to understand Austria's stance on Turkey and Turkey joining the EU. Heavens above, I'm from Plymouth and still remember the Spanish Armada! And I recall my friend's father telling me 40 odd years ago that Metternich had said the Balkans began at Schwechat. It was an interesting and illuminating programme.
magda - the siege of Vienna
I am really disappointed with the last show. The role of Polish army was diminished. It would be much better for Poland if our King had stayed at home and just pray for Austrians.
Robert - The Battle of Vienna
Polish lancers might seem outdated from the point of view of infantry-based Western warfare, but in the vast expanses of Eastern Europe it was cavalry that ruled the battlefields throughout the 17th century. Polish lancers (or rather winged hussars) proved victorious against numerically superior Swedes in 1605 (Battle of Kircholm), Muscovites in 1610 (Battle of Klushino), Cossacks and Tatars in 1651 (Battle of Berestechko), Turks themselves in 1673 (Battle of Khotyn), and many others. Their tactics and strategy were perfected for battling the Asian-style forces, but they proved effective against Western-style warfare as well. So it wasn't merely the fact that the Turkish soldiers were demoralized that accounts for the success of the Polish charge.I do hope there'll be more programmes on Eastern Europe. So far it has been repeatedly and undeservedly neglected, although it's a fascinatng mix of Europe and Asia, with its cultural, ethnic and religious diversity, and a great deal of twists and turns of history.
Peter Bolt :Seige of Vienna
The Sultan always had to take into account the need to employ and finance his legendary Janissaries mercenary soldiers.Containing at one time it is said Saxon "Karls" fleeing after the Battle of Hastings. The real villian was his brother in lawthe Grand Vizier "Black Mustafa" who openly boasted he would "stable his horses in St Peters", and he had a lot of horses.It should also be added that The Hapsburgs were not even remotely grateful to the Poles for their vital help.
Nick Stow, programme of The Seige of Vienna
Good to know there are still some who can handle their libation and loquation simultaneously and with facility. Cheers Melvin.
Mariusz from Poland. - The Siege of Vienna
Being from Poland I am realy dissapointed by the last show. Polish role was dimisnihed, quite unnecessarily. It seems as if Turkish army colappsed itself, and the truth is that the impact of charging winged hussars on infantry morale was massive. Winged hussars might have seem outdated for Westernes, but were realy effective in the wars Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth waged against Turkey. Furthermore, the fame of Polish King John III Sobieski among ordinary Ottoman troops was something no other leader in Western Europe could replicated. The simple rumour that the Lion of Lechistan is on the field with his best units must have put fear in the hearts of Turks. And it was not very easy decission to go to relieve Vienna, as Polish-Austrian relations werent particularly good, Austria schemed against Poland from time to time - and later repaid us handsomely taking part in the partitions...I would be realy interested in a programme focused on Poland - be it noble democracy, military camapigns, unique sarmatian culuture, long-term lost conflict with Russia, being a beacon of Western culture in the East etc. - but maybe finding three scholars specializing in the subject may be difficult.
Peter Household - Siege of Vienna
Was fascinated to hear that the Sultan felt he had inherited the mantle of the Roman Empire, and so assumed the Byzantine view that the Holy Roman Emperors were illegitimate. Anyone got any insights on this? Would like to hear more.peterhousehold@yahoo.co.uk
Gill - The Siege of Vienna
Very interesting programme as usual, particularly for me as my U3A group studied this area last year. In my opinion In Our Time is the best programme ever thought up and I turn to the archives again and again when there's "nothing on the telly", which is frequently!
Siegeofvienna
The siege of Vienna is significant because it relates to an important theme in European history: its relationship with the Islamic world. Vienna was regarded at the time as the "frontier" against the Islamic world. So it was important that the Ottamons be defeated in the siege. To some extent, this thinking still exists, and is seen for example in the debates around whether or not to accept Turkey as a member of the EU.
David Barnett, Ph.D. - Seige of Vienna
War is very costly, and vast as the Ottoman empire was, the state was perennially short of money from the 17th Century onwards. The failure of its investment in this war only made matters worse. The Ottoman state used a tax farming system, the abuse of which has left its scars on the Middle East to this day.
In the Levant [i.e. today's Lebanon, Syria Israel etc.], for example, the Effendi [wealthy landowner] contracted to pay the sultan a certain sum. The effendi then dunned his fellahin [tenant farmers] for funds. Naturally the fellah did not have cash, so would pledge his crop to pay the "debt".
Periodically, the burden would get too much to bear and the fellah would move out to escape [this kind of "bankruptcy" plagued the last centuries of the Western Roman empire too]. Sometimes he would take up residence on a plot vacated by another fellah. But the net result was a very short term perspective, low productivity and, ultimately, a fall in population.
The mid to late 19th century saw an upsurge of economic activity in Southern Syria [today's Israel]. The fellah now found he could earn cash by working for or trading with Jews. It is estimated that for every Jewish immigrant to an area, 10 felahin could be liberated from the cycle of debt to and dependance on the effendi.
Naturally, the effendi did not like it. They persuaded the Sultan to ban land sales to Jews, but too many effendi defied the law for a good profit. The next trick was to play the race card. In many respects, today's Arab-Israeli conflict has at its root the desire of the Arab elite to continue to exploit the Arab masses. If so, no political formula can solve.
The history of taxation and taxation as a driver of history would make a fascinating "In Our Time" subject.
Brian Turner - The Siege of Vienna
Fascinating - not least because I was a contemporary of Andrew Wheatcroft at Christs in the early 1960s!Busbecq, the Imperial ambassador resident in Constantinople at some time in the 16th century, stressed the importance of rice & camels to the Ottoman success, writing:'There are two things from which, in my opinion, the Turks derive the greatest advantage and profit, rice among cereals and camels among beasts of burden; both are admirably adapted to the distant campaigns which they wage. Rice keeps well and provides a wholesome food, a little of which suffices to feed a large number. Camels can carry very heavy burdens, endure hunger and thirst, and require very little attention'.Obviously not an explanation foir defeat in 1683 but a help in explaining how they arrived at the gates of Vienna.
Peter Craven: The Siege of Vienna
The Siege of Vienna is generally accepted as taking place in 1529, whilst what occurred 1623 is known as the Battle of Vienna
