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Joanna Weddell: School of Athens
For those who wanted more art history information on the School of Athens, try the Web Gallery of Art: www.wga.hu, enter the site, go to the bottom of the page and click R for a list of artists, select Raffaello Sanzio, and then Stanze della Segnatura. Good quality images, a biography and visual analysis. No adverts/popups.
Anjuli Pandavar - School of Athens
Like others, I too, was hoping for an art historian on the panel. The discussion was a treat, even though I did not agree with everything that was said. As it is such a major work of art, I was hoping to learn more about how Raphael's skills as an artist were brought to bear to make his philosophical-theological points. I was hoping for some comment on the use of colour as I see, for example, the depiction of Aristotle and Plato in robes of complementary colours as establishing the simultaneous opposition and unity of materialism and idealism. But I'm sure many listeners had their own little questions that they were hoping to hear answered.I discussed IOT with a friend the other day and we agreed that it harks back to a time when thought was valued and when being educated was something to aspire to and be proud of. How poor money has made us!
Dr Angie Hobbs The School of Athens
Nicholas Adams is quite right that Bramante's plans for the rebuilding of St Peter's Basilica form one of the many probable reference points in Raphael's rich and multi-layered work. I had certainly intended to mention this, as it's clearly important, but one doesn't think of everything in the heat of a live discussion! However, the basic point of the Ancient Roman influences remains the same, as Bramante was quite deliberately looking (in part) to the buidings of Ancient Rome in his work (whether he perceived these as specifically 'Roman' or more generally 'antique' is a moot point). So it still seems clear to me that Raphael's work contains echoes of the Pantheon (as it would appear did Bramante's plans)and, I would suggest, the Baths of Diocletian as well. And the programme did go on to discuss at some length the ways in which some figures (not all) in the Renaissance sought to harmonize ancient philosophy with Christianity.With regard to another issue raised, I should certainly enjoy listening to a programme which concentrated on the 'School of Athens' from the perspective of art historians. But in this instance a decision was made to concentrate on the philosophical significance of the fresco. With works of art as great and influential as this, there are always a number of approaches one can take.
School of Athens
I thought that one of the reasons this was an exceptionally successful topic was that the use of a picture as the centre of interest brought a sense of completeness and balance which counteracted the historical dynamic of change.M. Pickering
The School of Athens
I have just read about the favourable comments on this programme. The fundamental reason, it seems to me, why this particular programme was so successful was that, in the management of information, the historical temporal dynamic was offset by the spatial framing supplied by the picture.Michael Pickering
School of Athens
Dear IOTHad to stop listening when the first interviewee could not identify the building in the School of Athens as Raphael's reconstruction of Bramante's designs for new St. Peter's. That's the point: the philosophers are gathered in Julius' projected building designed by the architect whom all agreed had done more to revive antiquity than anyone else. Nicholas Adams
Gareth Thomas - School of Athens
A remarkable programme: truly visual radio! The excellent photograph of the fresco provided a focus throughout the discussion (and it is now my computer desktop picture). As I am studying philosophy and theology in an English seminary in Rome this added an extra dimension to my understanding of the history of philosophy, as well as providing some good insights and background notes for the study of 'Fides et Ratio'. A suggestion for a future programme would be to study the fresco on the opposite wall; which reminds me, you said you would do a programme on Thomas Aquinas. That was a couple of years back, so is the programme still in the pipeline?
Philosophy
So interesting you're doing Bacon next. Your contributors' potted history of classical philosophy since the Renaissance missed out the enormous impact of skepticism, revived 1560s, championed by Montaigne and influential of Bacon (and Shakespeare).
School of Athens
The architectural surround to the philosophers I always thought was in homage to the design for the new St Peter's, in the process of being built at the time. The architect, Bramante (Raphael's uncle) worked in the Roman style revived by Brunelleschi at the beginning of the C15.
The School of Athens
Really enjoyed being elevated above the 'everyday' for a while and am about to google in order to find out more. Bless you... and thanks as always - Jane.
John, The School of Athens
Enjoyed this sumptuous banquet of discussion on the High Renaissance of Raphael’s School of Athens. I felt an art historian should have been included to cover the art offresco painting as similarly practised by Leonardo(e.g. Last Supper) and Michelangelo who was painting the Sistine ceiling (cf. The Creation). Indeed Bramante, the Vatican architect who introduced the young Raphael to Julius, also allowed Raphael to see Michelangelo’s Sistine ceiling while the latter was away. I felt we all got a bit lost on that old cherry, Plato vs. Aristotle. We did get to hear about the Romanizing of Greek space,the depiction of Roman architecture as opposed to Greek, echoing the grandest buildings in Rome, the vaults, the arches and statues. The fresco is looking back at the greatest minds of the classical world especially in Greece. At the centre are the two central figures in Western Philosophy, Plato andAristotle, reflecting the two sides of western thinking. Plato the idealist is on the left pointing upwards to divine inspiration. Beyond him to the left are the philosophers whoappealed to intuition and the emotions. They are nearer to the figure of Apollo- and they lead on the wall of the Parnassus. To the right is Aristotle, the man of good sense, holding out a moderating hand; and beyond him are the representatives of rational activities-science,logic logic and geometry. Below is a group centred on Euclid.In a medieval world ridden by plague and wars and lacking basic medical knowledge Raphae depicted the utopian ideals of a perfect city and life-open streets and airy,civic squares in a lofty Olympian architecture. Maybe a ‘rhetorical fantasy’ but Raphael went on to be an architect. The figures are all posed as in Hellenisticsculpture apart from the morose Heraclitus(modelled on Michelangelo).Raphael is a harmonising classicist, bringing into one whole the worlds of theology, philosophyand painting. Raphael was a great synthesist painting with great facility, naturalness and complexity as in a dance, groupings of figures in a forum. He is able to reverseDante’s placing of these pagan figures in limbo(the Inferno). The reformation is almost over. He translates theological and philosophical ideas into harmonious compositions. He knew from the library at Urbino how to portray the figures who were in the shelves below, but he also related them to each other and to the whole discipline of which they formed a part.We see how he poses his great contemporaries Michelangelo(Heraclitus), Leonardo(Plato) and Bramante( as Euclid) in the picture.The discussion on the two books, The Timeus and the Ethics was fruitful as to the different interpretations of God by the two philosophers and the ideas of knowledge versus wisdom, the difference between mathematics(Pythagoras on Plato’s side) andbiology. Then the similarities between the two books and the way objections to Plato were smoothed out and both were embraced by Aquinas and Augustine was excellently covered.They spoke ofhow these two philosophers were superseded in the 17th century by Descartes and Hobbes, who both worked from first principles, and became part of the history of philosophy. The speakers mentioned on the opposite wall Divine Wisdom floats in the sky above the heads of those philosophers, theologians and Church Fathers who havetried to interpret it. In these two flowing groups the seekers after revealed truth are arranged with the same regard for their relations with each other, and with the philosophic scheme of the whole room, that exists in the School of Athens. These twowalls represent a summit of civilization. On the 3rd wall the fresco of Parnassus reveal the civilizing muses with a depiction of Sapho. It is interesting how Raphaeldepicts himself in a group of astronomers on the side of Aristotle and Leonardo(the real one). Weneed to revive Raphael as one of the greatest artists of all time.
Michael Shepherd : The School of Athens
Congratulations on another excellent instalment of Melvyn Bragg's 'Civilisation; on Radio'.Two small points : a programme based on a painting would have benefitted from the presence of an art historian, to discuss just who set the programme for the set of paintings in the Segnatura. Was it a committee ? Did it come out of the library of Urbino into Raphael's mind ? Did it come from the Vatican itself ? That line of discussion might have revealed more of the influence of Plato and Aristotle in the Renaissance around 1509.The other point is that Raphael's painting could be seen as a perpetual insult to Aristotle's reputation ! It was Aristotle above all who taught men to think systematically (Plato, to teach men what to think about..): in this year of celebrating Darwin, we should pay tribute to Aristotle for making us consider genus, species, levels of cause and effect, and the whole categorisation of our planet.However, weekly cheers to Melvyn Bragg for providing the education we never quite got around to in our schooling..!
Jennifer Bassett: The School of Athens
A fascinating discussion, as always. Thank you. I have just been studying Raphael's fresco, and am intrigued by the dark doorway below the stage to the left. It is quite a statement in the picture, and I wonder how today's experts interpret its significance. Was it symbolising a gateway to hell, or the crypt where all these philosophers' bones would one day lie, or the dark, mindless abyss that awaits all those who do not engage in rational intellectual debate?
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