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Rod Kibble Wasteland
The contributors were puzzled by the sequence of empty sexual encounters that emerge throughout the poem. Surely that was Eliot's point? Erotic love reduced to lust is part of the wasteland in a culture questioning its traditions. A mechanical love making is symptomatic of a mechanical fragmented world.
The Wasteland
Some good comments this week. In 'The Wasteland', Eliot had the talent to 'offload' elegantly and his words were taken up by a publisher, helping him carve his way on the literary path. It's one way of doing things. I wonder how much of a culture's artistic output is about the personal expression of an individual and how much about the accreted (spell check doesn't like that word but it'll do) and allotted role of the arts in a society or the employment of critics or, in this case, remuneration for the publisher and published or even the (somewhat) vicarious involvement of the intellectuals...those who can do do, those who can't.....I don't mean that in a derogatory sense but again, in relation to the expression of the individual. Many intellectuals delight in artistic talent which they can relate to in their more cerebral way. Also, the receptivity and reflectiveness of the various echelons of consensus in the mass of people which decide many a talent's fate. Shakespeare we simply couldn't have overlooked but when it comes to 'The Wasteland' and some of Eliot's other writing, I personally find myself in the borderland where there aren't the wings to either carry me above or cut through to the absolute core of the mundane. Know what I mean? I can appreciate Eliot's talent and I can relate (all too easily!) to the words, but for me, they don't somehow have power beyond themselves which the best art does - it empowers you through its ability to artistically or politically or emotionally etc. hit the nail on the head one way or another. Eliot's words enter my body intellectually but there isn't that instant 'hit' in my heart or my viscera which recognizes something it feels to be profoundly so. Maybe it's a case of 'one man's meat....' or have I possibly missed some of his best work?. I'm looking forward to tomorrow's programme on measurement. Thanks fellow 'commenters' and best wishes.
Heather Bradford The Wasteland
This was a brilliant programme. It's a tough poem - baffling and deeply melancholic.Thoroughly enjoyed the broadcast's treatment of it.
Elizabeth Roberts The Waste Land
I see I am not alone in commenting that Eliot's search for religion underlies and explains The Waste Land. Can we broaden this discussion into how it is that on air such a group failed to mention Christianity at all? Is it the last taboo for intellectuals - even if one or more are believers?
Fred Holland 'The Waste Land'
Alas, a very inadequate programme. The first ten minutes were taken up with waffle on 'the cultural context' like three surgeons talking about the hairstyle of a man with brain tumour. The work of any major artist - indeed any artist - proceeds from his personal problems. We learn by the way he deals with them, and sometimes that universality appears as impersonality.There was no mention of his personal problems and I'm sure this was deliberate, perhaps from a misguided sense on the part of Melyvn Bragg that they were not relevant, or perhaps even because the BBC wish to keep sweet with Eliot's widow. Eliot was torn by his personal problems: Verdenal, the French doctor whom he loved and who died at Gallipoli, his disasterous first marriage, Bertrand Russel who provided im with a financial cushion while seducing his wife; etc, etc. At no time was there any analysis of these influences on the poem. What was the devastaion of the Waste Land but the devastaion of his own life made into art? Elsewhere Eliot remarks, in his essay on 'In Memoriam'on the conjunction of 'public themes' and private interests - how they overlap, converege, coalesce. In this programme nothing was teased out or weighed, yet I'm sure at least one of the participants, given his head, was capable of it.There are occasions when Melvyn Bragg who performs a great public service in a difficult role becomes too contolling (and I recommend anyone to listen to the superb progamme on the French Revolution, 'The Reign of Terror'when three brilliant contributors almost escaped, and he was forced to run after them like an irate parent.)Perhaps the trouble is, every literate person thinks themself an expert on 'literature' (vide those dreadful programmes, 'A Good Read' and 'Open Book'), but in fact it is more than that, it goes back to the absence of real critical standards based on the ultimate values of life and death. We have all noted the temporary assertion of tragic sanity into political life by the death of David Cameron's son. Is the comparison far-fetched? No. The Waste Land is a great poem born of pain and suffering, and Eliot, a greater critic than any of the participants, knew its shortcomings - and even more, his own failings - none of which were mentioned. He, and it, and we ourselves, deserved better.
piers jessop 'the wasteland'
i recall a radio four programme of some twnety years ago in which i believe stephen spender discussed eliot. he reported that while having lunch with the latter in a soho restaurant he posed the question 'is 'the wasteland' about the breakdown of civilisation?' to which eliot replied 'yes'. asked how this would come about, eliot further replied, 'internecine warfare'. i was surprised this was not mentioned on an otherwise wonderful programme.
Pete Bailey Waste Land
Another great programme. So refreshing to hear that it's a waste of time looking for coherence in there. Had to study it at school and hated every minute of it. Thanks Melvin for asking the question I always wanted an answer for - why write something which only half a percent of the people will get, not speaking Latin, German or Twoddle fluently. Might as well compose music in a key only dogs and bats can hear. So if there's no meaning to it the only question is "do I like it?" A resounding "No". Dull dead end indeed. The Emperor has no clothes.
The Waste Land
The Wasteland is a poem that has been severely edited by the ‘superiorcraftsman’ Pound. We have a poem in 5 sections in free verse, freighted witherudition, literary allusions, quotations, cribbing lines from old poems, Dante,Shakespeare, Spenser, Marvell, Goldsmith, Baudelaire, Wagner, Nerval,Augustine and Buddha. We know Eliot had had a breakdown and had taken leave from work when he wrote The Waste Land. There is a merging of the personal and political. With Eliot’s desire to escape from his personality through detachment in his work so he can depict impersonality. The technique where variations of mental state are depicted through various personae and voices is radically experimental. We have a fractured narrative, changing voices and tonal shifts and we cannot identify who the voices are: who ‘we’ ‘us’ or ‘I’ is.We need toremember Eliot is a major dramatic poet(cf. Sweeney Agonistes)using dramatic monologue, dramatic meditation, striving to grasp ametaphysical condition that could be called religious in a world that knewnothing of it at a time when Eliot was non-Christian. He draws on the mythicalmethod he admires in Ulysses but the result is incoherent and messy. We alsoget voices from the music-hall, like the Victorian novel, a dying form with the rise of cinema,Eliot doing a 'turn'. What unifies everything is the subtle music of the soul, a passive undriven music of Eliot’s best poetry. As Leavis said:" The unity the poem aims at is that of an inclusive consciousness: the organisation it achieves as a work of art is…an organization that may, byanalogy, be called musical”. Poetry to Eliot approximates to the experienceof listening to music. The notes, the intellectual apparatus, the references, the allusions, need to be dropped to appreciate this poem. He said poetry could communicate even before it was understood. Beautiful poem that it is, I tendto agree with Fran Bearton’s contention that Yeats, holding to traditional forms has, in the long run, in the 20th century, been much more influential.
Petrina Blair. THe Waste land
This was fantastic and I have now reread this poem with so more understanding, Elliot does a great reading of it on a CD produced by HarperCollins, very musical. It is a great aural poem, just like Shakespeare. Great programme. !
A.Reiss - The Waste Land and Modernity
Thank you for discussing the poem, I reread it last night with great pleasure. There is a poem by Charles Elton "Luriana Lurilee"; to me Eliot's "singing" follows Elton's."Weialala leia / Wallala leialala""Luriana, Lurilee." - just the crudest example, or am I tone deaf? I am a foreigner as well.
Jenny Eastwood
Could someone please give me the title and details of the 'pre Ezra Pound edited' version of 'The Wasteland'?
Dave Parsons The wasteland
I am interested to know why the poem is classified as modern. I suggest it fits many characteristics accepted as post-modern. The end of te grand tradition (narrative and a coherent comprehensible structure and subject matter). In architecture modernism is functionalism, coherence and lack of gratuitous ornament. Post modernism can mix styles and include decoration for the sake of style. This seemed to match The Wasteland with a wild mix from classical allusions, Shakespear to musichall and a very obscureoverall coherence. Is the term modern simply related to the year it was produced?
theresa 'The Waste Land'
Thank you. I didn't hear it all but the parts I managed to listen to I found fascinating. I was especially glad to hear one of the group refer to William James and reality. This will be useful to me as I am working on a dissertation on 'Religious Experience.' If I can bring in some poetry, albeit obscure,that will re-inspire me. I love many of the programmes, especially those of a philosophical nature, Boethius etc.Thanks, Melvyn.Theresa
John Clements- T S Elliot - The Waste land and mod
I am not a university graduate but I shall be graduating in the university of life in the next few years. I take an interest in most topics and I must admit that I continue to be confused over the interpretations and analysis of poems. I always thought that poetry was a literary genre that gathered together the form and structure of the language, with rhythms and rhyme, alliteration and associations etc, etc. The game that seems to be played is to second guess what the poet had in mind. There are endless hours of discussion, and each generation seem to come up with a different slant on the poem under discussion . Take for example today’s analysis of T S Elliot’s poem “The waste land and Modernity” There were three “Experts” and Melvyn to conduct the discussion. I listened with some concentration but the overall general impression was the subject of the poem was enclosed by the “experts “ and that none of the meaning of the poem escaped to the outside listener. In the pre amble it was stated that this poem had a great influence on the modern world. Did he really influenced it or would it have happened anyway? Are these poets trying to tell us something? Are the experts trying to explain the meaning of the poem? If so why do they couch their message in such convoluted language. Are these sort of poems only for the so called intellectuals? I must say that after I have found and read a poem that I have enjoyed, my enjoyment can be spoiled by some ones analysis that contradicts my understanding and pleasure.Finally could anyone tell me why poetry is read in such a mournful tone of voice? Long live Pam Ayres! The happy, in your face poet!!
Violet-Poetry/the Waste Land
A theory of discourse analysis is that one can tell with whom a person as been speaking by their language. Also that it is via language we become who we are.Poetry is the expression of the poets thoughts, a way of giving the world an insight into the mind.The opportunity to read, listen to orwrite poetry is important to society.Unfortunately many individuals will never know the joy of these aspects of literature.
Kate Brown on The Waste Land
Dear Melvyn - In Our Time is an astonishing achievement, anyone who had listened to and digested even just a year's programmes could boast of a serious foothold in arts and sciences. That having been said, I missed something quite crucial in your discussion of The Waste Land. I discovered this poem when I was 15, and loved it for its music - it also introduced me to Nerval's poetry, and Wagner's, and the City churches. Jessie Weston was mentioned, but no-one talked properly about why the poem was called The Waste Land, and where the promise of rain comes from at the end. The barren fragmented nature of 20thC western culture can be refreshed - perhaps (and the uncertainty is enchanting) - by the ancient certainties of the east. Anyway, that's what I thought when I was 15, and it seems still quite valid. No-one mentioned the thunder.
Paulpic not a Waste after all
Maybe Wasteland was talking about info-tainment. That it is neither a waste to learn deeply nor waste to dither. Either way, you can enjoy the passage. Sort of a cheerful thought -- thinking that we are not Wast'in our Time.
Susan Biggin The Wasteland
The Wastelands - Your discussion was reassuring to this materials scientist. For many years I've tried to reason with this classic, to seek structures of the right form to contain it, and failed. I can now see its sense, in the amorphous envelope of meaning it shapes for itself.
Piers Spencer, The Waste Land
It occurs to me that there are two 20th century musical works in which quotation is central. Luciano's Berio's Sinfonia, which uses the 3rd movement of Mahler's 2nd Symphony as a template which is overlaid with quotations from Beethoven, Ravel, Ives, Debussy....and on and on.The other is Shostakovich's enigmatic final symphony No 15, where puzzling quotations from Rossini and Wagner crop up throughout. Both works can be summed up in Eliot's line 'These fragments I have shored against my ruins.'
THE WASTE LAND
Excellent - nothing superfluous or pretentious. Incidentally, I also encouraged my M.Phil students to read & contemplate the lines before embarking on the supposed mythological/epic pattern.Andrew K Kennedy - Clare Hall, Cambridge
Jane - The Wasteland
April might, in this case, have been a less cruel month than this grey February to deal us 'The Wasteland' 'though the timing turned out to be somewhat pertinent in relation to today's news. How all too easily things reiterate. I think that to really understand quite a lot of poetry the saying "you had to be there" applies. The mood, the weather, the moment, the environment, the whim, a passing bird, an argument, being in love etc. etc. etc. etc. can surely create or influence poems. To try to intellectualize isn't always possible (or necessary) no matter how deep and glorious the speculative results may be. In this work, the writer being in a (justifiably) nervous, depressed and subsequently chaotic state probably gave rise to an awful lot of what was under discussion today. Poems tend to spring forth, often taking the writer by surprise but my perception of this piece is that it is less about inspiration and more about statement and expression of personal (affiliated to collective) experience at a certain point in time and via a certain talent. Poetry is a very broad term but I've reached the stage where I think that there are quite enough of the poems which bewail our lot...... I want to see some solutions! Best wishes and many thanks as always.
Richard Simpson The Waste Land
As ever a fine programme thank you. A small item of geographical (if not necessarily poetic) fact. The "city" elemement of the street names isn't compromised by Queen Victoria Street as it is in EC4. Maybe your guest was thinking of Victoria Street in Westminster?
Chloe Alexander: The Waste Land
Having studied The Waste Land for English A Level, I was really looking forward to this IOT, but have come away disappointed by the contributions. For example, when asked by MB about the line "A heap of broken images" Steve Connor was dumbstruck and flummoxed. Which seems to me astonishing for a Professor of Modern Literature, or perhaps it's an indication of the calibre of academics these days? The individual concepts Eliot puts in, it seems to me, require no exact interpretation but are better seen as a composite whole, a theme. There seemed a lot of time spent unnecessarily on the material that Pound removed, rather than the poem we have today. Why? No mention of The Fisher King which was an excellent IOT last year. Nor the growth of spiritualism, the growing interest in Freud and the phenomenon of neurosis, the drought which had afflicted London for two summers prior to the publication of the poem ("But there is no water"), Jazz music, the work of the Surrealists ... all of which seem more pertinent to me than, say, the founding of the BBC or Marie Stopes Family Planning clinic. Surely those events were just an historical coincidences? The panel seemed obsessed by these coincidental dates, but history doesn't react that quickly. What would have influenced Eliot would have been creeping through for the previous ten years. Years ago Melvyn Bragg hosted a South Bank Show on The Waste Land with Craig Raine amongst others which was a perfect discoursive analysis of the poem. Today's programme felt irrelevant and unhelpful, especially to anyone new to the piece who would probably have appreciated a more coherent examination.
Alexandra Rook re.The Waste Land
The 3 male academics were all far too literal whereas the minority voice of the woman professor was so much more cogent, subtle and coherent. The key point she made is to listen to the music of the verse - the pauses, as in music, tell you as much as the words. You fill in the spaces and make of the words what you will from your own experience as much as any erudition you may bring to it. Isnt that the purpose/meaning of poetry - to capture emotion as much as intellectual constructs? That said, Pound's genius was to excise words & make the form of the verse reflect its message - less is more. I thought the brief reflection on sex in the poem missed the point completely - it was based on hindsight, looking forward to the future post 60s so called sexual liberation & its aftermath, whereas for Eliot surely it would have reflected the urgency of sexual encounters in the face of young men going to war & not returning.
rosamond richardson the waste land
the discussion of 'I did not think death had undone so many' - of the crowds flowing over London Bridge - comes direct from Dante, which your discussion strangely failed to mention, since it's well known. Dante's model of the world - hell, purgatory, paradise, is also a model of the human psyche, and his 'wasters' flowing into the mouth of hell (Inferno) are his depiction of - in his words - 'the waste and rubbish of the universe' - those who never committed to hope, faith or love or anything much else. The 'neutrals'. They are on their way to the eternal fires (in his scheme of things). I heard the 'in our time' on Dante and was hugely disappointed that he came over as so dry and rather boring. He isn't - as Eliot would be the first to acknowledge (Dante, he confessed, was the most important influence on his life and entire oeuvre). Please could we, one day, have another discussion on Dante with commentators who can bring him to life in the way he deserves (Dante is never dead, actually), and relate him to the human condition and the way we live now. Please. Meanwhile, thanks for a fascinating view of Eliot (his number one fan) today.best wishes
Stella Gambling: The Waste Land
I have just listened to the programme on The Waste Land with much enjoyment. The discussion of Ezra Pound's influence on the text and how this 'fractured' the sense of a coherent narrative made me wonder if this is related to Pound's relationship with the Vorticists, who had attempted to 'fracture' the urban landscape in their paintings of the late 1910s. This would also feed into the sense of a 'robotic' world - another interest of the Vorticists.
Elizabeth Roberts The Waste Land
1) How can the significance of 'sterile (sexual) encounters'in the Waste Land be puzzling, since the poem is about fertility in its broadest sense, and fertility rites in particular? 2) The poem's underlying theme is the poet's (then unsatisfied) thirst for an explanatory cosmology, which Eliot later found in Christianity.
The Waste Land
I thought that looking for a 'cultural context' got the discussion off to a bad start. We only see such things in retrospect - they are crude summaries. So crude that you can read the 1920s as either being about modernism; progress, embrace of change or as the complete opposite; regret for a loss of faith, innocence, a culture - and the embrace not of change but of reaction. I was also puzzled that the contributors made no reference to other works by Eliot. If we want to know what 'The Waste Land' is 'about' the answer is surely that it is about the same thing as most of his other poems! 'Gerontion' is surely a condensed 'Waste Land'.
David Pollard / The wasteland
How strange that three experts on Eliot can spend 40 minutes discussing 'The Wasteland' without mentioning religion. Surely this is one of, in not the, most important topic in the poem
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