One night in Baghdad, the 9th century Caliph Al-Mamun was visited by a dream. The philosopher Aristotle appeared to him, saying that the reason of the Greeks and the revelation of Islam were not opposed. On waking, the Caliph demanded that all of Aristotle’s works be translated into Arabic. And they were.
And it wasn’t just Aristotle. Over the next 200 years Greek philosophy, medicine, engineering and maths were all poured and sometimes squeezed into Arabic. It was a translation movement of extraordinary depth and scope so that, hundreds of years before Aristotle reached the West, the intellect of Greece was woven into the tapestry of Arab thought.
Contributors
Peter Adamson, Reader in Philosophy at King’s College London
Amira Bennison, Senior Lecturer in Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies at the University of Cambridge
Peter Pormann, Wellcome Trust Assistant Professor in Classics and Ancient History at the University of Warwick
Audience reactions to this edition
Arabisation
Just read that “the middle east was Hellenistic until the Turkish conquest”. (and Bettany Hughes just said on the radio that people in the area spoke mainly Greek until the 9th c) Could the Translation Movement have been a contribution to Arabising the area? (Though it does seem a bit strange it started 2 centuries after the Arab conquest)
Ian Haines Translation Movement
I couldn't agree more with the news letter, "what did they do to be left out this way" I know, and applaud the fact that politics are kept out of the program but someone needs to address why it is the Arab/Muslim world is so ignored, it was certainly so in my school days 50 years ago and it seems certainly so today when the Muslim world is seen (at least by most of the media) as mainly religious dictatorships or terrorist sponsors perhaps there's a program there?
Peter Household
Peter Household - translation movement historiography My experience echoes Joseph Ramon’s. My father (born 1914) was a deeply conservative Englishman, the last of the empire loyalists if you will, but I well remember him instructing me on Europe’s debt to the Arabs. I also remember that this theme was repeated in my 1960’s school lessons on the Renaissance; although it is fair to say that the dominant idea I took away from school history was that the Renaissance was fuelled by Greek scholars migrating west after the fall of Constantinople. Although the expression “translation movement” is new to me, I do feel I have “always known” about the Arab contribution, and am frequently surprised at the surprise this information is said to occasion, see para 1 of Melvyn’s newsletter. What research has been done on the dating of Western neglect of this narrative? Clearly medieval Europe knew it, then it was forgotten, and now it is remembered again. But just when did this forgetting and remembering occur? peterhousehold@yahoo.co.uk
john_bradford
I love the programme and most of the subjects, but I find the mispronunciation of "foreign" names and places makes the study incredibly difficult: the british (and americans) (and probably many or most other nationalities) pronounce "foreign" names /places so promiscuously various - any pronunciation except the correct one - that I find scholastic discussions difficult, and on the radio, impenetrable. OK, we are used to Paris and Abicenna, but could we not, us brits, standardize by approximating to the correct? Would it not make it easier, or am I the only struggler out there? My interests are also near-east and middle-eastern culture: but these nationalities are in this country and culture and always in the news. I will start with some trivial but easy examples: Khartoum; Khan; Khalif; Bokhara, Khorosan. The "Kh" signals the sound as does the "ch" in "loch", so why the confusion? Where did you guys get the pronunciation Kay-liff? Especially as the lady was correctly saying "Bokhara"! I wont go on: but you know the thing: El Cid called Ell Sid, etc. It even spreads into very familiar european languages, but especially arabic, persian, afghani (I know these are nation-states, not language groups, but you know what I mean.) When listening on the radio where one doesnt see the printed word we depend on correct pronunciation for understanding.
Translation Movement.
One thing for sure can be learned from this history lesson - when original copy (Greek text) costs are low even if reproduction (translation) costs are high, knowledge can flourish and be expanded on, changed, improved, developed, disseminated in the absence of intellectual property rights. After all, there were two renaissances in knowledge spurred by this translation movement. And the counter factual question - that might have been, but was not, asked in the program - is most interesting: what would have happened in Islamic cultural world world, in the European medieval world, had a tightly enforced national and international system of copyright protection existed "protecting" Greek authors from "pirate" activities in the 9th century, and in later centuries Arabic authors from Latin translators? I guess it is a sign of our times that we answer this question in a peculiar way: we regard translators who don't pay original copy writers as "pirates" and prosecute them as criminals , whereas during these two Renaissance eras translators who didn't pay were regarded as cultural heroes (and well paid for it)
Rosemary Marcus -- Aristotle in Arabic trans.
Dear Mr Bragg, Two comments:As someone engaged in translating a 16th Cretan playwright's works into Engish blank verse, I was amazed to hear that translators were once so handsomely paid! In common with most academic authors I work for nothing and am lucky to have found a publisher.Your programmes are fascinating -- but there's a tendency to gabble and leave out important links. Last week's was a case in point. Certainly Arab translations preserved many classical Greek texts that might otherwise have been lost, but you ignored the role of Byzantium and Eastern Orthodox Christianity in underpinning the Western Renaissance. Have you covered the history, art and literature of the Byzantine Empire? If not, could you? I jumped straight from classics into early Modern Greek -- would very much like some pointers to fill in the gaps.Rosemary E. Bancroft-Marcus (D.Phil., Oxon.)
Cliff Addison: The translation movement
As important as this movement was in preserving ancient Greek texts for the western world, it is really just the tip of the iceberg. During the 9th Century CE, in particular, the Islamic world was a conduit for a massive exchange of trade, peoples and ideas. Previous programs have touched on some related topics, but further discussion is deserved.
Zak translation movements
Very interesting show, you should consider a show on the convivencia which is after all the next great translation movement.
Elizabeth Smith IOT Newsletter.02.10.08
The Newsletter asks why Arab scholarship got sidelined, despite the fact that it was "neck and neck with European scholarship which it had totally fed." I offer the following suggestions as to why Arabic scholarship may have lost out. The Muslim world eschews figurative, narrative painting thus blocking off one communication channel into Western culture. The second barrier that may well have taken Islamic culture out of the main stream is Islams unwillingness to allow women to become participators and conveyors of intellectual ideas. If as stated "Islamic scholars and intellectuals feel somewhat disgruntled and overlooked." they may ameliorate these feelings by turning their considerable intellectual and creative skills to finding ways around both these barriers which work against the dissemination of their ideas.
William of Moerbeke -
Melvyn's email claims that Aquinas used translations of Aristotle via Arabic. Isn't it generally thought that William of Moerbeke made original translations from the Greek for Aquinas' use?
Colin Fisher Translation movement
As a resident of Spain it amazes me the lack of attention given in this country to its role in the diffusion of classical learning throughout Europe. Lorca's oft-quoted comment that the fall of Granada to the Catholic kings was a disaster, and his execution by the descendants of the immigrants brought in to replace the city's arab population, possibly provide an explanation for why this happened.
Rita Kingham: The Translation Movement
Without the ancient Greeks, and the translation of their great works, where would Arab scholarship have been?
Pronunciation and demonisation
Pedantry Corner: Averroes is the Spanish name for this scholar, is it not? It has no accent in Spanish (although other languages add a dieresis to separate the o and e), therefore it is surely pronounced aveRROes.It seems Islamic culture has been demonised for hundreds of years for political reasons (from Church Temporal to Bush’s carpetbagging friends). I would have thought that was why its contribution is minimised.
Robin Bennett on Translation
Brilliant programme, and even more brilliant comment in your letter. Please return to these issues asap.RB
Joseph Ramon
Perhaps because I grew up reading old, yellowing encylopaedias more than my school textbooks I was not surprised to hear of the contribution of Arabic scholars to civilisation. But an excellent programme again.My breath is bated though - I can barely wait for next week's programme. Please get Douglas Hoffstader on to the panel (and make the whole programe a acrosticontrapunctus ;)
Introduction to Avicenna
May I just highlight an imprecision in your introduction of Avicenna as a ‘great Arab scholar’... Avicenna was born in north east of what was then Persia (Today’s Uzbekistan and Afghanistan) and to be frank this is as farthest as one can get on the map from the Arab nations and the Arab states. Avicenna died in Hamadan which is roughly in the middle of Iran. Although he was well-read and eloquent in various languages his oeuvre are mostly in Farsi and Arabic but crucially this does not make him ‘an Arab scholar.’ Avicenna was born in Persia, died in Persia and spoke Farsi all though his life. In actual fact his Persian background and his mother tongue (Farsi) had an undeniable impact on his attempt later in life to reconcile rationality with Islamic ideology… Regards,Dr Reza Navaei Leicester
Dave Nicholson The Translation movement
In his newsletter Melvyn writes“Somehow in this grand sum of culture a keystone has been omitted. What on earth is happening here? No wonder Islamic scholars and intellectuals feel somewhat disgruntled and overlooked. What did they do to be left out in this way? Up to the 17th century Arab scholarship was easily neck and neck with European scholarship which it had totally fed. “But of course the 18th and 19th century were than age of empire, lording it over lesser races. The still running programme America Empire of Liberty has made the same point, George Washington proudly going on about Liberty while knowing that America was founded on slavery and genocide.I would like to hear a programme on “great brain washings of history”. Ignoring Arab culture is just one example. Turn round from Kaiser being at his granny’s deathbed 1901 to kicking dachshunds 1914. Saxe Coburg Gotha to Windsor. Churchill praising Stalin in House of Commons as a man of our time, war declared against Hungary 1942 to cold war and bombing Greek partisans 1945. Many other examples
Chris Jeynes
Brilliant programme, as usual, but I was sorry that you didn't explain the continuation of the greatness of the Arabic school until the 17th century as advertised. I had thought that the Muslims tripped up intellectually on the Greek disbelief in creation, which Averroes and Avicenna never countered effectively (as Etienne Tempier, Bishop of Paris, did in 1277). Hence the overwhelming later interest in astrology, and the irreconcilable contradictions with true monotheism. And (very relevant today) why did the Muslim miracle fade? Maybe you need a follow-up?
David Wallace: The Translation Movement
I had to smile at Melvyn Bragg's anxiety as he realised they were running out of time. I felt the same. We spoke of Toledo, but not of Gerard of Cremona. We spoke of Averroes, but not of Maimónides. - Once I tune into "In Our Time," I want it to go on all day - or at least till lunchtime!
Jane - the translation movement
Thank you for Melvyn's newsletter which addressed important issues that, following the excellent programme, many of us must have been pondering. I had a vague unease from early on which I can only describe as a "tears before bedtime" sort of feeling. That such congruence seems to have gone so horribly wrong. It's not been exactly incremental as we've obviously had societal highs and lows but oh dear - I can't help but feel that if these pivotal scholars could visit the twenty first century they would probably see technology as a useful (if somewhat "double edged") tool and other certain advances as beneficial but I think they would be mortified by the general ethos, aggression and unevenness of humanity. It's almost unimaginable in today's world that Muslims and Jews and Christians etc. could work in affinity towards the same end. If I rationalize this, I would have to ask "what, politically speaking was ruling these countries at the time which enabled this to take place?" By our standards this would be uncommon leadership surely. Best wishes
Saeb Eigner, In Our Time-The Translation Movement
I am not a usual follower of In Our Time (this was the first time that I heard it on the radio). I was fascinated by the information, explanations and debate-thank you.
David
Re the Arabic prog. Great programmes! I always 'Listen Again' - in fact more often that not that's how I receive this programme. In terms of time and Mr Bragg's lack of it (not impatience - just physical minutes in the time allotted!) would be be possible that the program is made to 90 mins (say) and then edited down to 45 mins for 'live output'? This way Listen Again customers can be immersed a little longer at the full 90 mins and Bragg gets more time for more 'fleshing out' as he likes to put it!
Dirk Campbell: Greek learning and Islam
Just as interesting a subject as the introduction of of philosophical and scientific inquiry into the Islamic world is the question of its eventual loss. Perhaps even more interesting, since it is at the core of the divide between the west and Islam. This question was merely glossed over in the last few seconds of today's programme, The one disappointment in an otherwise excellent overview.
Alí Hendessi - The Translation Movement
Hi,I was enjoying today's programme until I heard Melvyn call Farabi and Avesina Arab scholars. How disappointing and how typical of painting everyone from that region with a clumsy broad brush. I would have expected a programme like yours to know that both Farabi and Avesina are Persian and not Arab. When is the BBC going to learn the difference between the two. It's like calling Shakespeare French, simply because he is European. Come on BBC, stop your Orientalist antics.Yours frustratingly,Alí HendessiLondon
Jon Sims
Fascinating programme about Greek knowledge translating into Persia but who is this chap Azit Whur who seems to crop up in every other sentence?
