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Jim Cosgrove -- Music and the Spheres
The intensely intertwined historical/mathematical philosophese which pervaded this enquiry into cosmic music and planetary movement, seemed to offer impressive erudition, without any real clarity of translation for the listening 'plebs'.That said, some of the comments posted thus far, oscillate authentically in the subject groove, demonstrating a secure enmeshment in the 'science of transcendence',echoing the programme's apparent disposition. While Melvyn Bragg offered occasional prompts to simplify for the average listener, he sallied forth regularly on his own precis of knowledge, thus competitively 'stymieing' his own stated pursuit of clarity. It was an engaging cerebral experience,and fairly impressive for that. Somewhat sadly, however,the essential emotional/spiritual -- somatic/visceral axes of experiential enquiry seemed to elude.As a music therapist, I was delighted to be reminded of those luminaries who have been exploring (and practising !) my own chosen profession over many an epoch. But I'm also reminded of Karl Heinz Stockhausen's forlorn projection wish : "Some day we will be delivered from the religion of science" (Towards a Cosmic Music -1988).Modern day Music Therapy clinical practice still searches for the convincing evidence to 're-establish' its place in the pantheon of healthcare options. Perhaps the collective spirit of Pythagoras, Plato, Ptolemy and Kepler et al may still come to our transcendental rescue.For now, science rules o.k.
Angela Voss spheres
Jason,Yes you are right, the ancients conceived of the spheres as vast crystalline structures upon which the planets moved around in their orbits. Sometimes it is the spheres themselves which are conceived of as creating harmonious sound, sometimes it is the actual motions of the planets. Gradually this became more of a poetic conceit, or thought of as mathematical loci rather than substantial in some way.
Tom Milner-Gulland - Music of the Spheres
In saying "Just as the hole that converts the sphere to a torus translates between 'the number of the earth' (four) and 'the number of heaven' (three [and 4+3=7]), so each of the two musical systems of major and minor of any key can each be defined by a distinct three-note chord, with a seventh note in the octave serving as a mathematical adjustment that enables a translation between the two" I ought to make clear that the hole converts the single-plane surface (which yields a four-colour map problem) to a three-dimensional surface (for a seven-colour map problem) is what gives the number three that I mention as being the so-called number of heaven. The third dimension, the back-front axis (which conveys the idea of motion, and with it, energy) is what I term the transcendental dimension; hence the link with the notion that three is, for some, the number of heaven. Similarly, in music, the process of sound reaching the percipient is experiential, and in that sense three-dmensional; the Pythagorean proportions are not.
Graham Compton: The Music of the Spheres
As I sit here, surveying a pile of examination scripts and "listening again" to that excellent series "In Our Time" (thank you, Mr Bragg, for maintaining my belief in civilisation), I do so to the accompaniment of a moderately loud and slightly complicated whistle. In another age, I might feel that I was listening to those musical spheres. As it is, I call it tinnitus. I have every sympathy with Pythagorus and wish I could think of a similarly grandiose interpretation.
Tom Milner-Gulland - Music of the Spheres
On numerical relationships and the macrocosm: There is a problem (solved in the 1970's) in maths known as the four-colour map. Any map that represents sectorial divisions, printed on a single-plane surface (including eg. the surface of a sphere), can be coloured in such a way as to distinguish each sector, by colour, from each of its neighbouring sectors, in no more than four colours. The linear scheme of the four-colour map embodies the three properties of division, circumscription and intersection. Division may be said to correspond to externality (which conveys the reality of imposed boundaries); circumscription, to transcendence; and intersection to internality (we might say that internality, by which I mean the innermost mind, is nonspatial, and infinitely small). I've posted previously expressing how I distinguish the trichotomy of the three spatial dimensions as, correspondingly, the external, the transcendental and the internal dimensions respectively. The relationship between this trichotomy and the quadruplicity of the four colours, in the four-colour map, that it yields, is applicable to the understanding of nature. By my thesis, scientific insight broadly falls into three areas and, by analogy to spatial dimensionality, these represent parameters. The 'material' parameter embodies the four quantum numbers and corresponds to the external dimension; the biological parameter embodies the four constituent bases of DNA and corresponds to the internal dimension; and the 'cosmological' parameter embodies the four fundamental forces of nature (as recognised by modern physicists) and corresponds to thetranscendental dimension. My resulting ‘structures-manifestations’ model has it that the four quantum numbers ('manifestations') are related to the three basic particles of proton, neutron and electron ('structures'); the four DNA bases are likewise related to the threefold distinction that characterises the codon, the unit that is read by the ribosome and carries hereditary information; the four fundamental forces are related to the three so-called controlling constants of nature of the gravitational constant, the Planck constant and the speed of light. A map on a doughnut-shaped surface (a torus) yields a seven-colour map problem, as though the connection of front surface to back represented the appropriation of a translational factor; here we can bring into perspective such sevenfold phenomena as the Western octave. Just as the hole that converts the sphere to a torus translates between 'the number of the earth' (four) and 'the number of heaven' (three [and 4+3=7]), so each of the two musical systems of major and minor of any key can each be defined by a distinct three-note chord, with a seventh note in the octave serving as a mathematical adjustment that enables a translation between the two. Similarly, the light spectrum embodies three primary colours of light (R,G and B), carrying with them three *different* primary surface colours (cyan, yellow, magenta). The music/light analogy is evidently concreted, not in the macrocosm, but in the seat of the sensibility.
Jason
I still don't understand what a sphere is - is it a massive crystal sphere with a planet somehow embedded in it? I'm beginnning to think I'll never understand!
frank smith-music of the spheres.
i was intrigued by the notion of mathematics in music,which perhaps led charlie parker the co-founder of bebop jazz, to his experimental approach. he kept hearing different harmonies on ray noble's cherokee. so the flattened fifth and other odd chords and intervals were interpolated into his solos. those close to bird said he could converse eruditely on mathematica, physics and philosophy.
Barry COURTIER: Music of the Spheres
This programme fell between two stools, unfortunately: a) the often stimulating sweep of History approach from ancient times to modern day, was halted in its tracks at Kepler. One contributor managed to get in a sentence in on the current scientific relevance of Pythagoras' cosmic harmony ideas (or 'the vibes'), only to be brushed aside by Melvyn in the programme's dying minutes; and b) it was all horribly rushed.
Jane - Ptolemy - Melvyn's newsletter
We think we've progressed? I have never read anything as perspicacious or profoundly perceptive as Ptolemy's 'Seven virtues of reason' - at what age did he have such incredible insight? Was it innate or did he arrive at it? (I suppose it's possible he borrowed it but for some reason I hope not). With regard to the general theme - the true visionary is rare and fate tends to favour a prepared mind as the objective intelligence must make sense of and translate the subjective understanding. Most are people whose charisma spoke louder than any real truth - problem being that the justified doubt becomes universal. Best wishes
Stuart brikkie....music of the shperes
I always listen to radio 4 when I am working . I was doing a bit of bricklaying and found your programme fascinating.The day was rounded off nicely with a programme about the history of astronomy ...a kind of Tolomy to Hubble sort of day. I am sure how much I will remember but the finished wall benefited greatly ...I am sure Pythagoras would have approved!Thanks Stuart.
Myra McNeill Music of the Spheres
I was both exhilarated and mesmerized by this discussion.Would Radio 4 consider an in-depth programme devoted to this subject?
Lesley Evans - Music of the Spheres
Fascinating programme. It might be good to do one incorporating Hindu and other Eastern ideas of the cosmic dance, which links in with quantum theory too. Fritjoff Capra wrote of this in "The Tao of Physics". I love the idea in the Narnia books by C S Lewis that the world was sung into being. Musical harmony seems fundamental to how the universe works.
Meriel Bloor: The music of the spheres
Re: Melvyn's newsletter and the number 7. The cognitive psychologist George A. Miller published a paper "The magical number seven plus or minus two: some limits in our capacity for processing information" in The Psychological Review, Vol 63. No 2. (1952). This suggests that 7 has been prominent in human imagination over the centuries because of some deep psychological limits in the human mind on short term memory. He provides interesting evidence based on research using English, but not all of his data has been supported by further research. Interesting though.
Rosemary Broadbent Music of the Spheres in Shakes
The programme began with the 'Merchant of Venice' quotation and it would have been satisfying to return to it at the end. A direct line can be traced from the 'divided line' in Plato's Republic, which discusses the visible and invisible worlds, to this quotation. The 'divided line' is applied to music 'heard and unheard' in Zarlino's 'Harmonic Institutions' although I suspect he recorded it rather than originated it. It is very likely that Shakespeare knew of this as the book is quoted extensively by Thomas Morley and the diagram can be followed exactly in the speech, even to the stage direction 'Enter musicians' when the desciption reaches 'musica instrumentalis'. Turning from evidence to a flight of fancy, it would be nice to think that the location of the mythical 'Belmont' where the speech is made is a tribute to Chioggia, across the water from Venice and the birthplace of Zarlino.
Chris Wright
J'accuse!re Spheres 19/6/8youve already covered this in Music and Mathematics!Chris
Colin Lavery Aberdeen Music of the Spheres
I am a total devotee of your programme and never miss an episode. I was however rather disappointed with the "Music of the Spheres" broadcast. I found the pace at which it moved far too fast and a lot of obscure technical jargon was used, baffling an ordinary mortal like myself.
Joseph Milne, Music of the Spheres
Melvyn Bragg's program about the music of the spheres was very interesting. Nevertheless, I felt it was split between two perspectives. Peter Forshaw and Jim Bennett seemed to be preoccupied with the Pythagorean theory working as a scientific theory of planetary motion. Angela, on the other hand, was concerned with the symbolic meaning of the theory of divine music. She described the three types or levels of music (Musica mundana, Musica humana, Musica instrumentalis) that Boethius elaborated and which formed the basis of the study of music for a thousand years. She also described how Pythagoras and Ficino used music and the modes to heal the body or subdue the passions. I felt it was a pity that this aspect of the discussion fell by the wayside, and the mere mechanics and astronomic theory predominated.
David Hatton. Music of the spheres.
Joseph Addson (1672-1719)'s lines may be of interest:- The spacious firmament on high/With all the blue ethereal sky/And spangled heavens, a shining frame/Their great Original proclaim......And the last stanza:-What though in solemn silence all/Move round this dark terrestial ball;/What though no real voice or sound/Amidst their radiant orbs be found:/In reason's ear they all rejoice/And utter forth a glorious voice/For ever singing as they shine:/The hand that made us is divine.
Jane - Harmony of the Spheres
Woa = I've just been reading the response letters to this morning's programme and have to laugh at the splendid erudition! I'm almost overwhelmed by the subject as I am a classically trained musician by profession but also someone who, in adulthood, moves readily into 'altered states' as they are called. I'll try to limit the verbosity but several points came to mind. The science/spirit schism - Angela spoke of the scientist and the visionary. There is also music as notation claimed so readily by the academics and music as sound which moves the human often to tears (two sides to the same coin). Musical modes. When I was four years old a piano appeared in our house. When I sat at it I could play - the legacy was in my genes and heaven seemed to open around my head as I naturally formed the chords. However, when I read "The secret life of plants" the author said that in experiment his plants grew away from rock music, vertically to western classical(in its loose sense) music (my cultural propensity) and towards Indian music. Apart from the musical preference of plants I wonder what else this tells us. The Indian system is different again from ours and I think it's relevant to draw this into this discussion if we are seeking to define influence from the cosmos. As a performer I have many times witnessed people deeply affected by music and for me, that is an important question. What in us is responsive to music? Life and all we know is made up of patterns and frequencies. Newly composed music is often naturally understood by later generations but not when first written. Best wishes and thank you for another wonderfully interesting and thought provoking programme - Jane
Cheryl Howeld...Music of the Spheres
Thank you for the programme,very successful despite it being such a huge subject to attempt at one sitting.As a painter who uses Ficino's modal system of ratios as a framework for current paintings, can I put in a plea for a programme which explores this connection between music and art. Seeing geometry as 'frozen music', the modes used in the proportions underlying painting composition do appear to effect specific emotional responses concordant with those achieved by the musical modes. If, as I believe, there are links between the music of the spheres, vibrational resonances in the areas of sound, colour and geometrical proportions to which we are innately 'tuned', I would be most interested to see a future programme connecting modal music and modal art.My research suggests further connections with vibrational healing, quantum physics and the ancient chakra system. Bringing together experts from these fields would I believe, show the amazing relevance of the concept of the music of the spheres to contemporary ideas.
Jeremy Main - where we go from here
Please add in folk music, we use modal tunings on folk harps. Idem scordatura in classical music.Please stand by for a big push on the 1560s philosophies next year - avoid Rudolph II, focus on Phillip II's circle between Brussels and the Escorial, based on Ramon Lull - we need to clear up the doubts about pseudo Lull.To lay readers, the roots of chemistry in alchemy are not as crazy as they've been spun by the Inquisition - Isaac Newton was not being foolish in his studies. We're on their track and they may have been onto something - recent chemo treatments use their work successfully.
Peter Forshaw - Music of the Spheres and Modes
Thanks for all the messages pointing out the survival of modes. I play guitar (enthusiastically badly) and wanted to mention various jazz heroes (John McLaughlin and Miles Davis immediately spring to mind), as well as, of course, Flamenco, but I'm afraid it slipped my mind when the next question came galloping along! As for the number of modes, I'm afraid I get extremely lost in Renaissance discussions because the names change, or at least appear to do so. I'm glad to see that we at least provoked some lively responses! All the best, Peter
Paulpic cords
The talk about the mystical understanding of the universe as a harmonic stucture, makes me wonder if string theory is more psychology than physics.
Music of the Spheres
A bit confused and confusing. A whole programme and no mention of CS Lewis "The Discarded Image" which would have helped no end.Rog Rowe
Miriam: The Music of the Spheres
Perhaps if the programme had been titled "Harmony of the Spheres" rather than "Music of the Spheres" it would have been a better description of the discussion? This would link to the Pythagorean/Platonic view of earthly music as an expression, an echo of that harmony, but that harmony also encompasses colour, scent, taste and many other experiences. This is by way of a reply to those who felt that a musicologist should have been present. Whilst that would have been good and interesting, I thought the three guests, coming from such academically diverse backgrounds, were able to take the discussion further into the concept of harmony. The great thing is that so many possibilities open up from this topic. Perhaps we can look forward to another edition focussed on music. There seemed to be a lot of potential in further programmes on the separation of astronomy from astrology too.
The music fo teh spheres - number 7
I enjoyed the comments in the 'in our time newsletter'. The significance of the number seven extends beyond European (Greek / Roman) culture. E.g. the Chakra, the seven centres of spiritual energy in the human body according to yoga philosophy, and the significance of 7 in Judaism (e.g. the Menorah).
Angela Voss The Music of the Spheres - too much t
We know there was a huge amount of material we didn't touch upon, including the influence on Pythagoras of earlier civilisations, the influence of Ptolemy on Renaissance music and in particular the importance of the overtone series - it was impossible to fit everything of relevance into a 45 minute programme! I did want to mention the overtone series as an example of the 'occult' properties inherent in sound and talk about how the lira da braccio was most likely the instrument Ficino played, precisely because the overtones are readily audible on this instrument. Alas it simply wasn't possible on this occasion. I certainly agree that a musicological angle would have a lot to offer. And Richard Dumbrill, I'd be very interested to see your paper.Angela
Angela Voss Jazz Modes
Dear Jazz fansI must apologise for not mentioning in today's programme that the modes are alive and well in Jazz - in the heat of the moment I simply forgot, which I know is inexcusable!! I was thinking of mainstream classical music and the dominance of major and minor modes. Many apologies!!best wishesAngela
David Humphreys, the Music of the Spheres
In reply to Peter Belcher;The eight-mode system described by the contributors has long been used for categorising plainsong (and by extension polyphony too). It consits of two modes each on D, E, F and G (one 'authentic' proceeding from final to final) and one -plagal (from dominant to dominant). The system survived in a modified form in the 17th and 18th centuries, epecially in French organ music designed for the Catholic liturgy. The twelve-mode system invented by Glareanus (1547) includes authentic and plagal modes on each of the notes D, E, F, G, A and C. It was intended to take account of compositional practtice, since many polyphonic compositions actually had finals on C or A. The mode on B had a classicising name (the Locrian mode) but was not usually counted because the interval from final (B) to dominant (F) was equivalent to a tritone rather than a perfectt fifth and therefore unusable in practice. In aserting that only the major and minor modes have survived I'm sure the contributors were referring to notated Western music of the 'common style' period (the 18th and 19th centuries) and would be the first to admit that music from folk cultures and jazz do not always correspond to it.
Ian West; Music of the spheres
I think Melvyn will be getting the point now that modes still survive in folk/jazz music. The notion has long tickled me that this is 'sort of' imposed on the folky by the limits of his (non-chromatic) instrument; and is not a survival from medieval erudition. It was a bit frustrating the way MB badgered for a source or mechanism of the "Music of the Spheres"; it was surely a "pattern" and not a "sound" that was intended. (Visions of a great hammer striking the planets in turn like the keys of a xylophone!)
Ken Watkins - The Music of the Spheres
Thanks once again for a stimulating, far reaching programme.The comment that we have 'lost' all but the Ionian and Aeolian scales as used in Western music needs revising, however. George Russell's "Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization", published in 1953, reintroduced the idea of musical modes into jazz. Miles Davis conceived "Kind Of Blue" as an investigation of Russell's ideas. Pianist Bill Evans studied with Russell. The Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian and Locrian scales are quite freely employed by today's jazz musicians and there is now a wealth of modal jazz that has been written, performed and recorded over the last sixty five years.I discuss this in my blog 100 Greatest Jazz Albums where there are also links to more information on modal jazz.
The Music of the Spheres
Miriam in Scotland: Thank you for a brilliant, stimulating and all too short programme. I've been reading around this subject for some time (I appreciate the research page, thank you. Excellent to discover that I can in fact listen on CD to Ficinian harmonies. Wow!). I didn't think it would be possible to provide a quick coherent track through Pythagorean, Platonic, Neo-Platonic thought then take in the schism between astrology and astronomy (previously twinned!). But - heavens - your excellent guests gave it the best attempt I've ever heard. Now, can we look forward to programmes on Ficino, Kircher and some of the individual characters and topics covered in this programme? Must check through the archives to make sure I haven't missed any related ones. I liked the way it harmonised with your earlier programmes on mathematics and music too.
Allan Morgan, Music of the Spheres
Dear Melvyn,might I draw your attention to a remark by Aaron Copland: "when a literary man puts together two words about music, one of them will be wrong." (so much for the chastisement) The idea that we 'nowadays' have only the major and minor modes does seem to ignore much of 20th century music: the other modes had a lot of use, also many constructions and abstractions. What a wonderful "golden age" notion it is that we have lost so much with the (temporary) demise of the church modes. The tonal system has lasted 3 centuries and has, in fact, opened up a host of new possibilities which the old system could not conceive of. Performance of early music is now very frequent, and the revival cum preservation of folk song means that the modal stuff is still available to us. In the early days of folk song collection the stuffy academics were to remark that the ignorant peasants could not possibly know about these modes because the professors had only recently learned about them. In total they never were lost. Golden age theories are for oldies (like me), but life gets on with resisting the laws of thermodynamics (only our glorious politicians and campaigners think they can repeal them).Q. Is life negative entropy?PS. We musicians know that music is mathematical because the mathematicians keep telling us that it is. In practice the worlds diverge considerably. I suppose you could say that music and maths have one thing in common: that they are both exclusively the product of the human mind; but which bits?
Peter Belcher - Music of the Spheres
This was a very interesting discussion but I was concerned to hear the assertion that there are eight Modes. As far as I am aware the Modes are Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, and Locrian, which totals seven Modes. Please explain the eighth Mode. I was also concerned to hear one of the guests assert that only two Modes are in use today, which is an assertion that cannot go unchallenged and I would suggest that the guest and others listen to Jazz, and much other 20th century music, which makes extensive use of all of the seven Modes.
Michael Edgeworth McIntyre, scientist and musician
Why do all these high-profile maths-music discussions seem to ignore the last century and a half of real musical composition? No, we have not lost all the mediaeval church modes other than standard major and minor. All we have lost is the old naivetes about them. Their musical substance is intricately woven into the rich tapestry of 20th and 21st century music. Indeed, we have more "modes" than ever before, notably the "octatonic scale", one of Stravinsky's trade secrets and commonplace in classical and jazz today. And think of the symphonies of Sibelius -- you hear the mediaeval Lydian mode all the time (major scale with sharpened fourth degree). Carl Nielsen's great oeuvre is full of wonderful flattened sevenths (mediaeval Mixolydian). And so on. Ever since Debussy -- who for well understood reasons explained by the late Sir Peter Platt was the greatest harmonic innovator since Bach -- composers have taken all this for granted.
Sylvia Philpot - Harmony in the Spheres
It would dhave been interesting to hear the relevance of this topic to the present day. One of your speakers briefly mentioned the sound being transmitted by planets, but not in the context of anything particularly harmonious. I remember seeing a TV programme many years ago when a tuning fork was placed against a metal plate of silver sand and it formed a snowflake shape. I wonder if anyone new of these experiments and whether there are any pictures on-line?
David Humphreys, Music of the Spheres
Never mind Gustav Holst, what about J. S. Bach? Bach's Goldberg Variations incorporate a hidden program representing an ascent through the celestial spheres of classical cosmology (see the Guardian, 14/5/2001 and the music periodical 'Soundings' for 1985.
Dr. Rod Paton - Music of the Spheres
HelloIt is completely erroneous for your contributors to claim that the "ancient" modes have been lost and replaced by the major/minor system. This is only true for the classical European tradition - the canon. Folk music however, as well as jazz, popular music, rock music and ALL non european music utilises a whole range of different modes all of which relate in various ways to the Pythagorean archetype and each of which possesses a different affective as well as structural function. All music is modal and the Western diatonic system is a subset - a rationalisation of the natural laws of harmony. And incidentally, the Pythagorean scale is not diatonic at all but closer to what we now call the Mixolydian mode.YoursRod Paton
Suzanne Aspden - Music of the Spheres
What a pity, in a programme on the Music of the Spheres, that you didn't bother to bring in an actual musicologist (who would, at least, have been able to explain the Pythagorean overtone series, and the impact of Ptolomeic and pseudo-Ptolomeic harmonic theory on, for instance, Renaissance song and the invention of opera).
Richard Dumbrill
Regarding your programme on the 'Harmony of the Spheres', may I remind your eminent speakers that they have completely overlooked the Babylonian evidence stemming almost a millennium before. There are 4 tablets from the Temple Library of Nippur which give the complete list of tone numbers up to 81, proving without any doubt that Pythagoras, then Plato 'borrowed' it all from Babylon. I would gladly provide your guests with my forthcomming paper:4 tables form the Temple library of Nippur.Regards
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