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Grayson - Charge of the Light Brigade
There is a book, "Honour the Light Brigade", by William Lummis and Kenneth Wynn (Hayward 1973), that lists 2,000 Officers, NCOs and other ranks of the five Light Cavalry Regiments who served in the Crimea from 1854-56. It is based on the Muster Rolls and clearly indicates those who charged on 24th October 1854. Bear in mind that any ancestral participant might not always be in the direct paternal line.
Alex :The light brigade
Lions led by donkeys?Would that be right?
Andrew Lyall (Dr) - The Charge of the Light Brigad
I am a great fan of the programme and Melvyn Bragg, but on this occasion I was rather disappointed. The discussion on the Charge lacked awareness of the geography. There were 2 valleys. Raglan on the heights could see this, but Lucan and Cardigan less clearly so. The guns were at the end of the left hand valley, looking from Cardigan's point of view, i.e. facing them. Nolan, addressing Cardigan, probably turned round in his saddle to gesture towards the right hand valley (Raglan's idea being that the light brigade would proceed up that and outflank the gunners). But Nolan may not have twisted round far enough (if he was gesturing with his right hand) and pointed instead, behind him, up the left hand valley at the end of which were the guns. He was apparently highly agitated at the time. Or, less likely, he intended to point towards the left hand valley. Less likely, because it was a cardinal principle which he would surely have known, having written books on cavalry tactics, that cavalry should never charge directly at artillery.
Charge of the Light Brigade
It was interesting to hear the programme talking of the aristocratic ranks commanding things from on high but of course the "rank and file" were ordinary folk regarded then as "cannon fodder" of which my great grandfather was one. He was interviewed very much later when he thought he was the last survivor of the charge of the light brigade because he was number one on the payroll, (in fact I believe there was one other). He mentions having met Florence Nightingale and talked of the brave Captain Nolan who, I believe, tried to stop the charge. It was not all wonderful as can be seen from his account. Lord Cardigan promised that no-one would want for anything after the braveness shown by those in the charge, but in fact quite soon afterwards these words were forgotten. After landing back in England the men were forced marched to Aldershot. I have photos of the gun carriage funeral and of the old soldier in his bathchair, for which I believe money was collected/donated.
Hussey: Light Brigade
RE Wellington: he may have called them scum but he also fought for better conditions for them, towards the end of the Peninsular War they had tents, before soldiers slept directly on the ground whatever the weather. Also, for medals for them, previously restricted to officers. Possibly one would find his "scum" and "they may not frighten the enemy but they scare the pants off me" (or words to that effect) were highly developed "Englishisms" as was his reply to the officer who lost his leg at Waterloo.
Stephanie Tenneson Charge of the Light Brigade
I'm no scholar, but doesn't Tennyson's poem resonate still in the larger British consciousness via the trenches of the Great War - brave, disciplined men, deeply flawed leadership? Each generation learns this story at school much more closely than the Crimean War. Or perhaps the poem simply captures the conflict of glory and futility contained in all such endeavours.
D C Rose: The Charge of the Light Brigade
May I recommend Kipling's poem, The Last of the Light Brigade, 1891, about how a grateful country left the survivors to rot.D.C. Rose, Paris
David Thomas Charge of the light brigade
I was doing some research in the stores of the Craven Museum in Skipton the other day and came across a small tin in which were"Russian rifle (sic) bullets taken at the close of the battle of Inkerman off field"The strange, split end, missile like shape and, more than that, the heft and calibre of these bullets made me very aware of the violence undertaken and pain and injury caused in this sort of battle.Great program- many thanks
Simon Fielding - Charge of the Light Brigade
Great programme. I would very much like to add Terry Brighton's book 'Hell Riders: The Truth About the Charge of the Light Brigade' which is an excellent account which dispels a great many myths about the charge.
Catherine Thorn - Charge of the Light Brigade
First may I thank you for yet another fascinating and enjoyable programme.The discussion of the poem and its interpretation brought to my mind the Battle of Maldon in 991 AD, the Old English poem written about it and J.R.R. Tolkien's essay "Ofermod" accompanying his short radio play "The Homecoming of Beorthtnoth Beorhthelm's Son". (The words I quote below come from that essay.) The Battle of Maldon was another instance where the commander blundered. Beorthtnoth, an Anglo-Saxon nobleman from Essex, was leading a defensive force against an army of Vikings who had just ravaged Ipswich. He had the Vikings nicely cornered on Northey Island. However, having been challenged by the Vikings to do so, he allowed them all out onto open ground so that the battle would be "fair" - unfortunately the Vikings won and routed the English, and Beorthtnoth was killed together with his "household" of crack troops, many of whom were family and longstanding retainers. Tolkien argues that the unnamed writer of the poem is critical of Beorthtnoth's decision whilst still praising the heroism of those under his command. "In their situation heroism was superb. Their duty was unimpaired by the error of their master ...It is the heroism of obedience and love not of pride or wilfulness that is the most heroic and the most moving; from Wiglaf under his kinsman's shield, to Beorthtwold [an old retainer who dies bravely at Beorthnoth's side]at Maldon, down to Balaclava, even if it is enshrined in verse no better than The Charge of the Light Brigade". On a separate point, one has to remember that Victorian army officers, with their public school education, would have been steeped in the ancient classics. One can imagine that having read about the heroic cavalry charges of Alexander, an inexperienced commander might fancy that such a tactic was feasible - failing to take into account the effects of modern artillery and gunfire. The classical background might also help to explain some of the resonance of the incident, particularly with Tennyson and his "six hundred" - it may well have chimed within classically educated minds with Leonidas and his valiant three hundred at Thermopylae.
Bill Charge of the Light Brigade
I agree with the last comment. The action may have been an error or bad decision, but they reached the target against the odds and caused material damage to the Russian troops, I would be interested in knowing what the Russian losses where, it must have also affectted Russian moral.
John on the Charge of the Light Brigade
A very interesting discussion but as said in the introduction something of a side show in a major European war. The event was made famous by a poet (as at the conclusion) and the ability of the "English" to see everything through their own Anglo-centric prism. The decisive outcome of the war was determined by the valor and skill of the Turkish army - hardly mentioned. While it is interesting to learn that nothing about the British Army is new - heroic men and horses, incompetent administration - could we find a government that can learn from history. That might mean a history with a European breadth not the narrowcast of London/Whitehall.
Barbara Emerson The Crimean War
The errors about jingoism & the opening of the Suez Canal have been noted. At the end of the war the Russian emperor was Nicholas I not Alexander II. When Nicholas died at the end of 1855, one of the few who had anything good to say about him was Queen Victoria. Alexander II was emperor when the peace treaty was signed in 1856. The restrictions imposed on Russia in the Black Sea soon became a dead letter.From 1870 the Russians took charge of looking after the graves of the British soldiers who had died in the war & were buried in the Crimea. There are canon displayed in Sebastopol to illustrate the siege & the courageous Russian defence. On examination they have 'made in Birmingham' stamps.I am writing a book on Anglo-Russian relations in the 19th century & would be grateful for input outside the Russian & British archives.
Peter Bolt; Light Brigade
Several calvary Regts still celebrate"Balakalva Day" as a regimental holiday.It is said, it may be apoccryphal, but then again it may not. One of the Troopers had been sentenced to a lashing for insubordination shortly before the charge. He,the trooper, survived the charge and was punished as sentenced. They don`t make them like that anymore.
James Charge of the Light Brigade
As a charge in the initial instance the guns were reached!Even if they were the wrong ones!Even given the fact that the LB then overreached its self afterwards, a failing not uncommon in many cavalry actions throught history and the world, this was not a charge that failed!Best regards to you all.
Des BrittainCharge of Light Brigade
My ancestor,William Brittain from Dublin,was the bugler who actually sounded the Charge. He rode alongside Lord cardigan at the head of the charge and was severely wounded dying three months later of his wounds in Flroence Nightingales hospial at Scutari. A little known fact is that the about sixty per cent of the British Army soldiers were Irishmen and many of the nurses in Nightingales hospital were Irish too. My ancestor, Billy Brittain was a city boy from Dublin and so many of the survivors of the Charge seemed to be towns folk too soI don't where the idea that the ordinary soldiers were just agricultural labourers. Also the men of the Light Brigade were not just ordinary soldiers. They were highly acomplished horsemen and knew how to wield a lance with deadly accuracy. Tally ho, Des Brittain.
Robert Giddings Charge of the Light Brigade
Highly interesting and wqell informed discussed. So useful to have variety of viewpoints/comments from a variety of professional expertise. Was Russia threatening our control of the Suez Canal as early as the Crimean crisis? Construction didn't actually start on de Lessups's scheme until 1859. Fascinating insights into Russell and war reporting, mention might have been made of Fenton's historically significant photographs as well. Censorship was rightly stressed. It's a fact that leading military figures welcome the publicity but tried to control the nature and detail of such reporting. Sir Garnet Wolselety (original of the Model of a Modern Major General) actually personaly licenced reporters and prsonally controlled press reporting in order to further his career though he called reporters "the curse of modern armies".
David Martin on reference to Jingoism in 1850s
The Jingo Song was written by George William Hunt, and referred back to the Crimea ('We've fought the Bear once, and while Britons shall be true, The Russians shall not have Constantinople'). As the Dictionary of National Biography states:...‘Macdermott's War Song’ (1877), or ‘The Jingo Song’, as it was usually known. Probably first performed in early May 1877, ‘The Jingo Song’ dealt with the threat posed to British interests by Russia's declaration of war against Turkey on 24 April 1877. With its strident chorus (‘We don't want to fight, but by jingo if we do, We've got the ships, we've got the men, we've got the money too’) it became the anthem of those who supported British naval intervention to halt the Russian advance. It was probably the Daily News in March 1878 which, aware of the power of the song, dubbed the more bellicose elements in this foreign policy debate ‘jingoes’, and the use of the term ‘jingo’ continued well into the twentieth century.
CHARGE OF THE LIGHT BRIGADE -MELVYN BRAGG
At the risk of being pedantic, one of todays contibuters in the discussion suggested that the difference between the Russian Army and the British Army was that the Rusians had muskets and the Briish had rifles and thus the British rate of fire was better, while it is true the british had rifles they were still muzzel loaded,single shot and thus not inherently quiker, just more accurate
Charge of the Light Brigade
I feel that all three of the contributors to this programme would have benefitted from having read from the massive archive on this subject that has been assembled from many sources in the pages of THE WAR CORRESPONDENT the Official Journal of THE CRIMEAN WAR RESEARCH SOCIETY.Someone else has already commented upon the Suez Canal not being opened for another 15 years but, even if not yet opened, the Isthmus of Suez was very nearly as important.The comments upon the rifled small arms of the Allies versus the smoothbore muskets of the Russians was misleading in that it suggested that the rifles were quick firing breechloaders. In fact the rifles took slightly longer to load, it is just that a combination of their range and accuracy, together with the training their users received, made them invincible against the unfortunate Russians who were trained to regard the musket as merely a handle for the bayonet. The limited number of rifle eqipped and trained Russian troops (mainly from Finland) who were deployed in the Crimea were extremely effective. The British (apart from the 4th Division in the early stages) were completely rifled armed, in fact the first Army in the world to be so. The French were only about 50% equipped with rifles of the tige system and these were inferior to the British of the Pattern of 1851 which were sighted to 900 yards and reasonably effective at 600 yards. I could go on but will spare you.Bill Curtis, Vice President, CWRS.
Derek May Charge of the light Brigade
I was very interested in the programme today.My father many years ago told me that one of my ancesters was a surviver of the Charge, but was unable to confirm this.My son a few months ago managed to trace(over the net of course) a THOMAS MAY who was listed as been injured unable shortly after the Charge.I have tried to find a list of survivors but without success- can anyone advise?This would solve along standing puzzle going back a few genrations.THOMAS MAY was a publican in Derby and name of the pub was THE LORD RAGLANI would very grateful if anyone can confirm any details!
Charge of the light bigade
Great programme, could you please explain the diffrence between the light and heavy cavalry. Is it th size and weight of the horse or the equipment the men carry
GEOFF COLTON CHARGE OF THE LIGHT BRIGADE
It is worth noting that the last survivor of the charge lived until his public funeral in Blackpool was recorded on a newsreel.
John re "Peter, The Light Brigade"
No contradiction"significant running costs on horses and uniform" relates to the officers costs."the soldiers were just ordinary agricultural people" relates to the soldiers (not Officers)Officers paid for all their own equipment and chargers.The soldiers had uniforms and troopers (their horses) payed for by the Colenel in charge.
Laurence Hallewell Charge of the Light Brigade
1. The musical hall song "By Jingo" relates not to the Crimea but to the Russian invasion of Turkey in 1876-77.2. Important results of the war not mentioned wereA. Austria's cowardly desertion of Russia in her hour of need created the division between the two erstwhile allies that led directly to their rivalry in the Balkans culminating in Sarajevo, 1914 and WWI. B. Withdrawal of troops to fight in the Crimea led directly to the Indian Mutiny, dominion status for Canada and the eventual end of the British Empire.C. Outdated aristocratic ideas of chivalry in warfare prevented prompt victory by adoption of the Earl of Dundonald's proposal to take Sebastopol by shelling it with poison gas shells.
Myrtle Ternstrom. Charge of the Light Brigade
Brilliant account of this is found inThe Reason Why, by Cecil Woodham Smith,Constable 1953 and Penguin 1978
Colonel Mike Snook - Crimea Light Bde etc
Twp points please. You cited in today's programme on the Charge of the LB the words of the song music hall song 'We don't want to fight but by jingo if we do....' as illustrating public opinion at the time of the Crimean War. In fact this song was not written until 24 years after the Crimea!!Secondly, it was suggested that the 'Great Game' related to Egypt and the Suez Canal when of course it relates to the tussle for control of Central Asia - in particular Afganistan - and the implicit Russian threat to British India.RegardsMike Snook
jmorey- music to the Charge of the Light Brigade.
I have in my possession, printed around the time, the text of Tennyson's poem, plus the music to go with it. The front cover is beautifully illustrated. Not being a musician I do not know what it sounds like. Thought your panel may be interested.
Peter, The Light Brigade
There seems to be a contradiction within the arguments. On the one hand, the panel say that being part of The Light Brigade involved significant running costs on horses and uniform. Then later they were arguing that the public sympathy was there because the soldiers were just ordinary agricultural people. Which is true?
Mick McT Charge of the Light Brigade
Surely the Crimea was not the only European War between Waterloo and the First World War? What about the Franco Prussian War.
Martin - Crimean Errors
Melvyn, Please note the Suez Canal wasn't opened until 1869, that McDermott's War Song was popular in the 1870s (not 1850s) and that Britan was not a liberal democracy!
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