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Bill - Occam and his razor
All these years and I'd thought it was to do with science, and it turns out to be cutting angels and pinheads down to size.
Subject research
I must be dim but can anyone tell me how to get to the subject research details on an archive programme. I can find the reading list for the current program, i.e. Ockham but can't seem to find the equivalent details for the archive pages. Any suggestions as to what I am doing wrong....Thanks
Dr. Akira Kanda : Ockham's razor
I wounder which should be taken following the principle of Ockham, Copenhagen QM or Bohmian QM? Maxwell's em field theory which is Galilean noninvariant or Hertz's em filed theory which is a Galilean invariant cover of Maxwell's theory at first order? History shows that the actual choice on competing theories many times were made without following Ockham's principle. I presume that the reason is two fold: First, it is hard to decide which is simpler. Second, there is more than science at stake as late Prof. Cushing put it.
Rhys Wyndhams: a close shave
I am an avid fan of Melvyn's programme, and never miss an episode, but I have to say that this one was one hell of a vintage. Surely, though, we all know what Ockham's razor is, and Richard Cross and his colleagues had much more interesting and educative things to say about this fascinating philosopher. How about one on the blessed Duns next?
Alex Bellamy Ockham's birthplace and Physics
Was Ockham really a subtling southerner, or a blunt Yorkie ?Melvyn claimed without qualification that Occam/Ockham was born in Ockham, Surrey. But Russell's 1961 'History of Western Philosophy' p459 reports "Most people say he was born at Ockham in Surrey, but Delisle Burns prefers Ockham in Yorkshire." Russell's reference may have been to Burns's book The First Europe, as yet unpublished as Russell wrote, but which Russell also relied on for its summary of the contents of 'The Donation of Constantine', the forgery in which the Emperor Constantine was said to have donated the Roman Empire to the Pope. And Googling on 'ockham yorkshire' also reveals this debate.So was Occam/Ockham a Yorkshireman or a southerner ? Arguably the cast of his philosophy suggests the former, a blunt no nonsense clean-shaven Yorkie. But the first question that arises here is: Where is/was Occam/Ockham in Yorkshire ? Does anybody know ?It should also be pointed out that the programme on Occam/Ockham also omitted to mention that Occam/Ockham was arguably also important in physics for his view (an application of his razor) that motion is essentially self-conserving without need of any motive force, contrary to the contemporary impetus theory of Buridan of Paris that its perpetuation requires an internal force of impetus, and also contrary to Newton's later view derived from Parisian scholastic impetus theory that the continuation of uniform straight motion in the absence of any resistance would be caused by an internal inherent force of inertia (vis inertiae), but apparently in agreement with Aristotle's view in 'Physics' 4.8 215a19-22 that in the absence of any resistance locomotion would be interminable, apparently without need of any internal (nor external) force whatever. In the late 19th century the view that the continuation of unresisted uniform straight motion would not require any force whatever became popular amongst positivist physicists such as Mach and Whitehead who sought to abolish Newton's force of inertia (vis inertiae) as an independent force, although in the 1870's in his book The Art of Discovery, the President of the Birmingham Scientific Society held that Newton explained planetary orbits as the resultant of the action of two forces, namely a centripetal impressed force and a lateral force of inertia.
Panchan Aruliah - Ockham's Razor
A small contribution to the topic:Occam’s Razor ~ William of Ockham (c. 1285 - 1348)'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem'. 'Entities are not to be multiplied beyond necessity'.The simplest explanation with the least number of ingredients suffices. The principle exhorts examining all relevant hypotheses; then choosing the simplest.This is a statement that resounds throughout the scientific world with its appeal to the virtues of the paths of parsimony.Although ‘economy of description’, achieved through simplification and generalisation, is of much disciplinary and aesthetic value, it in no way guarantees scientific prediction. However, it is this thread of discipline that strings together the minimal principles of the sciences, revealed among others, by Hero, Fermat, Maupertuis, Euler and Hamilton, which did eventually, based on the pioneering work of Galileo, Descartes and Newton, provide under certain conditions the means of achieving guaranteed scientific prediction.
occam
am i right in thinking that many of the facts of Occam's life are used as a basis for Umberto Eco's novel " the Name of the Rose"?
Beryl Palmer
So action-packed with esoteric thought that there wasn't tme to process it all. Listened twice, but still wish you'd give us a print-out, so that we can digest slowly - the sort of thing The Listener used to do.
Robert Kennedy
The political material was fascinating. Indeed, if we were not fallen creatures, why would we need authority? Very illuminating when looking at Shakespeare's history plays. Great show!
Goethe Girl on William of Ockham
I could have listened for hours. It was delightful to hear scholars so immersed in their subjects and (seemingly) not distracted by postmodernism. Was there anything in the program, however, on Ockham's razor, or did I miss it? I'll have to listen again.
Medieval Goons!
> whether medieval theology and philosophy has the strike power of other topicsYikes! "You bet", for me it hit the spot! I thought your symmetry programme couldn't be topped. Now I am expecting a masterpiece every week!I am not a medievalist, nor even a historian. In fact I am an engineer, educated in a working class High School (or "Grammar School" as the Americans think of British High Schools), in rural North Wales - very beautiful walking.Despite the obvious handicap of Wales, I loved your programme tonight (downloaded, as usual, to my PC and waiting for my return from a laborious day at work in a Honduran Maquilla).Though I was more than a little bewildered at times, I especially enjoyed the theme of "Communist Medievalism", and the discussion near the end of the broadcast which elucidated (for a dunderhead like me who has never studied these things), in a simplistic way, the roots of 20th century politics in the 13 hundreds and the Old Testament / Christian doctrine.Even now, I guess, in modern science, the same argument continues al la Ockham / Scotus: billions and billions of small molecules all the same, with a few mutations (DNA and genetics - humans only 16 genetic mutations away from a cauliflower etc.), yet at the same time we think of bizarre 13D superstrings - "made" of the same stuff, but vibrating at different frequencies..... where do the similarities stop and differences begin?Enough of my twaddle! Thanks for the erudition Mr B!
David Bird William of Ockham
Excellent. Yet again you hit another high note confirming that this is intelligent radio at its best. You cannot hope to please everyone or include the depth that suits your more technical listeners. As a novice at ideas even after 60 years of thinking I found this week's programme a stimulus to read more about Dun Scotus and William of Ockham. Your contributors were engaging and inspiring and their students must look forward to their next lectures and tutorials.Thank you, keep up the good work.
Lance Housley - Ockham
What a fantastic programme! I can see how some people struggled with it, but for me, who has struggled to get an overall picture of Ockham when confused by all the details of his life and thought ("Couldn't see the wood for the trees!") it was a breath of fresh air - outlining the bigger picture without totally ignoring the more important details. To judge by this programme, yes, you certainly could do one on Duns Scotus - and the 700th anniversary of his death will be in August next year. I know I would be much enlighten by it!
James Baring - William of Ockham
That was a great discussion on Okham. He is very relevant today, not only for his 'razor' which is invaluable whenever we are seeking an explanation of natural phenomena, but for his realisation that there is a massive paradox that every individual meets head on soon after birth. The objective and subjective difference between members of the same species (and of others). Not only are we distinct personalities as observed by each other, but soon after birth we become aware that we have direct access to the world around us via our own organs and senses and that this is both similar yet essentially different from that enjoyed particularly by all other humans and generally from other life forms, even though each of these these 'others' must perceive themselves as the 'eye of the universe' with special privilege.This 'observer privilege' is a built in property of the universe as a whole as well as its parts, and all autonomous incorporations are faced with this paradox, the full resolution and understanding of which may or may not come to them during their 'life-time'. Anthropic principle(s), multiverse(s), mathematical and dimensional inevitabilities, Ockham would be right in there today with arguments and ideas.Duns Scotus, while he had some insights, was a confused man wrestling with what he had been told and what he could think and make sense of. He did not get anywhere. Aquinas gets good marks for at least spotting that the truth ought to be rational and coherent, whatever it is. But Okham was feet on the ground and head screwed on and in the Spinozan mould. His name is also the answer to my favourite crossword clue, one that kept me guessing an hour after all the others were done, one Christmas about 16 years ago: "Razorbill's birthplace". Easy once you stop thinking about birds.
Andrew Robinson: Ockham's Razor
Ockham is the true hero of Eco's "The Name of the Rose". The Razor (a name only given in the 18th century, and only applied to Ockham in the 19th) is "don't multiply entities unnecessarily" -- alluded to by MarilynAdams as a friction between similarity and identity -- do we need to suppose an extra identical substance shared by similar things?In your newsletter you say "Ockham was distinguished as being both a great logician and a great philosopher. These two abilities were rarely found in the one man."From later times, Wittgenstein springs to mind.
Michael Domnin - ockam's razor
Ockham's ideas may have been sharp (!), but it was a very tough programme to follow, due to the fact that the vocabulary used by the participants was difficult for me , a layman, to understand.Following your interviews I went to bertrand russel's book "Wisdom of the West" and found a simplification of explanation which satisfied me, because - fortunately with a book like B. Russels, you can go back and forth to the different concepts through the index!, something I cannot do, listening to the programme.Praise to you mr Bragg and your team. They are difficult subjects to tackle and, I suppose, it behove the listener to explore more, starting from the comments made during the programme. Very wholesome, thank you.By the way, if you are going to explore Siegfrid Sasson next week, when are we going to hear about Bertrand russel who made such a good review of the Western philosophers in his "Wisdom of the West".Thank you for the programmes, they do kindle my explorations!
P. E. Dentry
Melvyn says in his newsletter:'Ockham was distinguished as being both a great logician and a great philosopher. These two abilities were rarely found in the one man – the only great example before Ockham was Peter Abelard.'Aristotle is a great example before Ockham, no?
John Hamilton - Ockham
Having heard the term "Ockham's razor" all my life, it was really fascinating to have it put in context - and to get a glimpse of what is now almost an alien world of thought. In Our Time continues to amaze, amuse and instruct - thanks, Melvyn.
Nico Shipman - on Ockham IOT Newsletter
Medieval theology and philosophy does it for me.
not cut on ockham's razor
yes OK Melvyn's intro and your intro here talk about Ockham's razor but what exactly IS it?? I was only able to hear about 2/3 of the programme, in and out, and never managed to find out.Why not say in the printed intro here? And is it important?As for Duns Scotus, I like Bertrand Russell's quip I remember from schooldays of his dining with the king (imagine a philosopher there today!) and being asked by the rude regal wit what separates a sot from a Scot, to which the reply was 'a table, my lord.'
Gerald Kreinczes on Occam
I found this a challenging programme - and having now listened back to it twice I'm still not sure I've grasped all the ideas. However it did help to bring to life the intellectual intensity of an age which it is all too easy to assume was a largely fallow period, waiting for the Renaissance to set minds free. More please.
jimmy adams: William of Ockham
How did we get through half an hour on this subject, with a number of references to the Razor, without mention of the Principle of Parsimony of Variables?
Simon Oliver Ockham
An excellent attempt to articulate some highly technical medieval metaphysics. It's a shame that the connection between nominalism and, for example, the modern individualism we all bemoan wasn't explored a little more. So often it seems that this kind of abstract, technical philosophy is part of a long dead past, but its conclusions have become the assumptions with which many of us live daily (e.g. that faith and reason are opposed, or that 'there's no such thing as society', only individuals). Melvyn, this edition demonstrated once again that a programme on Aquinas is long, long, long overdue!
Tom Milner-Gulland - William of Ockham
For me, this was the best In Our Time yet. I have always been inclined to entertain the idea of haecceity ('haecceitas') in reference only to objects of the external world: to say 'this is me', as though to treat one's own being is a kind of object, is surely only a manner of speaking. I have come to reckon that all of the most fundamental characteristics of mental makeup that render any two minds distinct grow out of a common state of being, and this property of issuing from it, is what sustains time. (For me, the various different qualities that grow from the core are best - if somewhat inadequately - conceived as 'instincts' of common mind.) By extension, I would say many great paradoxes in metaphysics - the Cartesian gap, Zeno's paradox, and so on - can be traced to the paradox of there being two ultimate qualities to the state of being: the developmental and the constant. A couple of other things - the principle of Ockham's Razor is, I believe, typically under-emphasized in definitions of science.And, it was good to hear the original 'Dunce', Duns Scotus, being hailed as such a brilliant mind.
IJulie B on Ockham
Thank you for a very interesting debate. I consider that humans are alike but each one is different. This applies to both the physical body but also the consciousness/soul.We are each part of a fractal pattern. In our case, the human fractal pattern. You only have to observe your fellow man or woman to notice that we are alike but different. This allows for evolution and also for change eg ageing.This idea can also can accept the "three in one" Holy Trinity in as much as Christ was human but part of his variation in the fractal pattern of humanity was that he was also God.What do other listeners think?
Paul Dee on Occam's Razor
As a doctor I was a little disappointed that so little attention was actually paid to Occam's razor itself although the programme was indeed interesting. I have certainly used the Razor in diagnostic discussions to some effect. Do other professions use it to the same extent ?
Andrew Asher, on Ockham
Philosophy from the Great people of the past should not be taken as the goal. No matter how succinct a line of wisdom may be to us now, the goal was to find the path to all knowledge. And that generally means to find God.
Derek Moore on Ockham.
I'm obviously not intelligent enough to make sense of this subject.Philosophy can be arcane but when combined with christianity's 13th century version of quantum physics, e.g.the nature of the trinity, I'm lost down a black hole created by Lewis Carroll. A valiant attempt to prove that no subject of enquiry is worthless.
Ockham
Great programme. On simplifying things, could anyone tell me where Melvyn's phrase "court in a thimble" comes from? When someone summarizes something, distills it to its essence (but in a poetic way) , we say: they've captured a river in a small cup.I think the political bit should have been glossed over in favour of a discussion of nominalism. Better still, a whole programme on Scotus.Melvyn, would love it if you did a programme on Ghazali as well.
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