Which is more deserving of £80 million, Poussin's religious paintings or Chatterley Whitfield Colliery, the largest surviving Victorian coalmine?
Poussin's The Seven Sacraments v Chatterley Whitfield Colliery
David Jaffe - Poussin's The Seven Sacraments
Kate Clark - Chatterley Whitfield Colliery
Nicholas Poussin's 17th Century religious paintings are cast against a coalmine in Stoke on Trent.
The Seven Sacraments, depicting key moments of Catholic ritual, are considered some of the most important works of the period. Currently on loan to the National Gallery, their owner is considering selling.
The Chatterley Whitfield Colliery is now a derelict site and English Heritage have recently put it at the top of their Buildings at Risk register.
Should we spend £80 million on buying the Poussins or restoring the Colliery?
Panel
Edwina Currie - writer, broadcaster and former MP
Simon Woodroffe - millionaire founder of the sushi chain Yo! Sushi
Robert Hewison - critic, cultural historian and associate of the think tank Demos
Larry Phillips - Decision analyst and LSE professor
For more information on the paintings and the colliery see:
Which do you think would be the better investment?
The restoration of Chatterley Whitfield Colliery
208 votes
The purchase of Nicholas Poussin's 17th century paintings
61 votes
Total votes: 269
This is not a representative poll and the figures do not purport to represent public opinion as a whole on this issue
Have Your Say
Which is more deserving of a eighty million pound handout and why?
Please state clearly if you wish to remain anonymous as your message may be read out on air or published electronically.
Barbara Paris Having re visited the Stoke on Trent area recently (I was born and bred there), I found it utterly depressing and in desperate need of re vitalisation. The Chatterley Whitfield project would be a start and also provides some employment, although admittedly under 400. Also given that there are examples of Poussins work in Scotland I find the mine a worthwhile project.
J Nicolson London My grandfather was a miner at Whitfield for nearly 50 years.This colliery provided employment to thousands of men, in what was a proud community.It is imperative that Chatterley Whitfield is saved for future generation to understand their social history.Poussin enthusiasts have their voices represented very well in our society, in contrast to the local community of Chatterley Whitfield. It is imperative that the colliery is saved both to regenerate the area and keep local history alive.
P Chan, Bristol I remember visiting a Poussin exhibition a few years ago (I think it was at the Royal Academy). These sacraments stood out amongst many beautiful paintings - their cumulative effect was extremely moving. Go see them while you can. I fear it is very unlikely they will be kept in the country, even though they are probably the most important paintings to come onto the Art Market for decades.
ian , bulgaria as an hgv driver who went against the miners in the strike of the 1980s hauling coal from this colliery and the hem heath colliery to the near by power stations, i feel that the mine needs to be kept as part of our history. there are now few enough working mines left. our children need to see what this country was built with , with coal as a major contributor to many inventions and the finances raised within the country by the miners themselves.
jon cattan As the Poussins and the colliery scored equal points,the answer stares me in the face.The colliery has plenty of space, open a National Gallery annexe to house both the Poussins and the other paintings not on current view. The two attractions would bolster each other and double each others profits.So put the money into the pot and maybe start the ball rolling by having a whip round the local football stadium for the extra 80 million.
Jim Woodhams, Reading My wife's grandfather was a miner at Chatterley Whitfield colliery, and in 1931 he died in a mining accident there. It would be a fitting memorial to him and the many other miners who toiled there over the years if we were to protect it. It is a key part of our nation's heritage and we should keep it for posterity and future education.
Chris Angus, Cumbria I vividly remember going down Chatterly Whitfield in the 1970s when we lived in one of the mining villages on the ridge above. Coal played an enormously important part in the industrial development of this country and Chatterly, as the first million ton pit, is such an iconic site to restore and preserve. Let's not loose it.
Lori Birmingham Twenty years ago I was, with numerous other teachers, accompanying a large school group to the colliery. Wondering whether I really had to go down in the cage I heard a group of girls also trying to get out of it. 'Are you scared, Miss?' one asked me. Stepping into the cage I assured them that I wasn't and that they shouldn't miss the experience. On the way down we remembered the men and boys who went down every day of their working lives.I have never forgotten Chatterley Whitfield and possibly neither have the girls. Although it seems that the underground workings cannot be re-opened let's not forget the colliery altogether.
John Poyntz, Chepstow I noted that advocates of the colliery project said nothing about preserving any part of the underground workings, lifting gear, steam engine, boilers etc. In my view the heritage value of a colliery is minimal unless there is access underground, as at Blaenavon. Then, it is considerable. If, as I suspect, the proposal was to use this very large sum of public money just to renovate some of the overground buildings for alternative use and perhaps to tidy up the site a bit, then my vote goes to buying the Poussins.
Janet, Staffordshire What about the ongoing costs of maintaining each option. Obviously the 80m costs will then be added to by an ongoing requirement for running costs. With the Poussin paintings, surely ongoing maintenance will be far less?
David Collins, Kidderminster I had the privelege of visiting Chatterley Whitfield minimg museum many years ago when one could go down the pit. An amazing experience.
Nicky in London I grew up in Birmingham and remember my school visit to Chatterley Whitfield Colliery very clearly. It really brought home the conditions that the miners lived with. To actually go down a mine and feel the claustraphobia and darkness closing in, is something that no photo or painting can do. I understand that the Poussin paintings are a great find for the national gallery but for us every day people who dont get much chance to go to the gallery, let alone look at every picture, its just one more set of pictures. I'd be no more moved by them in person than on screen or on a copy. Seeing the paintings in person wont transport me back to that time, i wont feel the warmth of the people or the smell of the flesh. It would also be nice for something of such importance to the midlands to be taken into account rather than everything going to London (as usual!)
Ian Mitchell, Amesbury, near Stonehenge The colliery has the potential to become an attraction in its own right, but redevelopment may be difficult. In the 1930s the commander of the aerodrome beside Stonehenge is alleged to have requested the demolition of the henge as a hazard to aircraft! How much of the historic colliery would be similarly viewed by businesses today?
Stephen Woollard, Edinburgh Its all very well talking about the value of pieces of art or historic places such as a colliery or stonehenge, but all of these types of thing seem to attract support from government, philanthropists and business relatively easily. What I am more concerned about is that we don't seem to have the same view when it coems to natural heritage and biodiversity. Relatively small sums of money would save species and habitats internationally, and if spent wisely support employment and maintenance of a healthy environment for everyone too. If it came to a choice of save a painting or a species I know which I would choose. (I'd hope we could save both). Why is it that support for saving, educating about and active management of natural heritage is so much more difficult to get?The real debate should be about our own attitudes and support for heritage conservation in its very widest sense.
Robin, Newcastle-under-Lyme I have voted for Chatterley Whitfield, partly because I live in North Staffordshire, but also because it represents the culture of miners and their families that is all too often ignored.
Linda Bridges, Staffs. As former Education Officer at Chatterley Whitfield,I was priveleged to welcome over a million visitors a year from all over the world. As an educational resource for Science and Social History as well as music and drama it was second to none. The site still houses several listed buildings, and the colliery should be preserved in toto and re-opened for the public as soon as possible. There are many examples of Poussins work, there is only one Chatterley Whitfield.
anne gorton littleborough who is selling the paintings? perhaps they would donate to the nation. it wont exactly be apauper who owns them.
anon Having recently visited a wonderful museum in wales, The big pit, I realy feel that england needs something like that. It is part of our history something we should be proud of, futre generations should be able to se for themselves how men women and children used to work, lest we make the same mistakes again. history is something to learn from not file in books nor just to be recorded as a painting.
Daniel, Edinburgh I felt the question was somewhat misleading. We were asked to choose between either Possuin or Colliery. I think we have another choice - to have both of them!
H Jones Manchester The colliery will not survive if it doesn't get restoration however some one will buy the paintings thus the decision is made both would survive
Jan, Oxford I'm interested in the way Edwina Currie chose to use the hypothetical £80m. It was to waste it entirely. By giving just under a quarter of what was required to each project, she ensured that both efforts would go off at half-cock. As for spending the remaining £50m on tax cuts, what nonsense! A one-off of a mere £1 for each of us. Perhaps with enough spin it might buy some votes?
anon, Leeds As someone from a family of Staffordshire miners up to the early 1990s, when the last North Staffs colliery was closed, I am proud of that heritage and do not in any way feel that it is a shameful or "dirty" part of our past that should be forgotten for a generation or two. People like my family mourn the loss of coal mining as a significant industry in this country at a very emotional level. Surely the miners strike of the 1980s showed the passion of mining communities to protect the industry and the accompanying local economies and culture that they knew would be lost with the loss of mining.I want to be able to show, with pride, my children what a colliery was like and the assemblage of buildings at Chatterley Whitfield would show all facets of colliery life, not just a pitiful pit winding gear wheel surrounded by a flowerbed, which is all that marks so many former colliery sites around the country.
anon, Leeds As someone from a family of Staffordshire miners up to the early 1990s, when the last North Staffs colliery was closed, I am proud of that heritage and do not in any way feel that it is a shameful or "dirty" part of our past that should be forgotten for a generation or two. People like my family mourn the loss of coal mining as a significant industry in this country at a very emotional level. Surely the miners strike of the 1980s showed the passion of mining communities to protect the industry and the accompanying local economies and culture that they knew would be lost with the loss of mining.I want to be able to show, with pride, my children what a colliery was like and the assemblage of buildings at Chatterley Whitfield would show all facets of colliery life, not just a pitiful pit winding gear wheel surrounded by a flowerbed, which is all that marks so many former colliery sites around the country.
Avril J Evitts The nation does not need ANOTHER Seven Sacraments; the National does not need another painting (it has plenty in the vaults that are rarely seen).To understand why we are where we are, to have a glimpse of where we are going, we need to know where we came from. Preserving the colliery is essential, purchasing the painting teaches us nothing we do not already know.
Keith Heron, Congleton May I point out that there is already in North Staffordshire the excellent Apedale mining museum in great need of visitors and support which still has the underground experience (and chip butties) not far from Chatterley Pit.Todays debate in many ways seemed to reflect the classic north/south divide both in the subject and the eventual location of the paintings.The grim north and the cultural south ( I know that Chatterley Whitfield is on the Midland divide, perhaps where both can co-exist) . The lives and toil of the working man sacrificed to give the privileged few plutocrats enormous wealth to buy up the art and culture of the world.Of course it was never that simple, the miners were elite and well paid and many educated their children and elevated them to appreciate the finer things such as music and art. Perhaps most of those would have voted for the Poussin (although I think Turner would have been more popular). Their offspring were trying to live down the hard heritage and ignore the awfulness of the past. Perhaps as one of your panel said, the grandchildren at one step removed can accept that reality. They would want that preserved for their grandchildren.Oh yes my mother's grandparents were all miners, I am a member of English Heritage, I enjoy Suchi and visiting Art Galleries all round the world.So I am pleased it was a draw because both are equally important. The Body And Soul of history.
Tony , Stoke on Trent This seems to be another situation where we buy artwork for the nation, located you guessed it in a London gallery. Our London galleries are nationally funded have considerable budgets and infrastructure in every respect! This paining be one more in a sea of culturally/natinally important artworks. Chatterly Whitfield is vastly more deserving in terms of preserving our industrial heritage and reminding the nation of the fact that people once made things in this country and did real jobs! Preservation of Chatterly Whitfield will generate much needed tourism to the region and create jobs not only at the venue but locally in supporting industries; its impact will have real legacy. Chatterly Whitfield deserves it, no contest!
Charles Moor For most people a good reproduction of the painting would be sufficient. Those needing to see the real thing should travel. Too much art is locked away in gallery basements and unseen. Paintings would be ideal subjects for a readily accessible multimedia presentation which would allow the whole population to experience them. Our industrial heritage is easily lost and it should be a responsibility of government rather than a few enthusiasts to make provision for their presentation. If we can preserve castles we can preserve coalmines.
anonymous. Difficult. But if it is restoring what was the heart of the region and encourages industry, business and jobs, fine. And not least the hard life endured and therefore the proud history to be understood by present and future generations. I also believe that there are many that would love to eradicate totally the miserable and the shameful ownership of mines and the history of mining in this country as though it never existed. Where I live in Wiltshire where the old early 19th Century, Harris Factory in Calne, a magnificent building of several storeys, was demolished after many demands, that it should be made into a Heritage museum of the Pork Industry through several centuries. It was decided that the cost was too great. Today, many feel that the heart of Calne was ripped out and although many new buildings and, some say, sensitive landscaping has taken place, it is a landmark missed and a physical contact lost except through faded sepia and monochromatic photographs. I might have supported the Poussin paintings, which are beautiful, if they were going to be displayed in a region rather than London.
Chris Baldwin (La Rioja, Spain) I would very much like to be able to access a written copy of the marking criteria the team uses in the show. Can you advise? tHANK YOU
Pauline Canterbury Having listened to the discussion, saving the Poussins is more important and more viable. These paintings are important for representing the sacraments. It is important to preserve these immages for the future of our spiritual life in this country.
Claire Morris Cirencester Glos There is a complete set of Poussin's Seven Sacraments, lent by the Duke of Sutherland, in the National Gallery of Scotland. Does the nation need a second, incomplete set.
Nick, Fife It's astonishing that the panel have not joined up cultural wealth with ecological resilience in their decision-making. There is a greater context to these discussions that relate the viability of our species on earth, and the imperitive to act on climate change as well as wider local/gobal ecological collapse. Surely factors of whether the investment can also be a 'win' for the environment would provide a critical extra line of discernment for decision-making, and help our panel make a creative jump from existing mindsets (fashioned by conditions of yesterday and today) into the priorities of tomorrow?
Simon Watson, Romsey,Hants I have voted(for the Poussins)but noted Edwina Currie's comment about the difficulty of redeveloping coal mine sites due to subsidence.Has anyone ever thought about using mine shafts as land-fill sites and thus achieving a solution to two problems 'at a stroke'.
Anthony - Sweden In my opinion, the Colliery deserves the money. The cultural benefit is enormous not to mention that the Colliery represents a more "living" culture.The paintings will always remain in existence, but if lost, the Colliery is gone forever.My judgement is based on the fact that this colliery is the best of its kind. In the end, we cannot preserve everything because that stands in the way of progress.In the context of total expenditure on cultural heritage, GDP or other economic indicators, £80 million is not very much money.
Peter Gray -Richmond Interestinf idea for a programme but the key point of the programme i.e. the decision of where the funds are to be allocated, should not be allowed to be split, as it was by Edwina Currie.The whole point is that the panel have to make a difficult decision, regardless of whether it is 'political' or not
Gail Ward Emsworth Hampshire My grandfather was a miner in Biddulph - Chatterley Whitfield fits with the regeneration of the area - Visitor attractions include Mow Cop and Biddulph Grange. Restoring at least part of Chatterley is a social and educational responsibility. Chatterley is in the middle of the UK and accessible to many. Regeneration is needed here rather than a golf course and sushi - or is this what Edwina wants (does she have ahouse on Rudyard lake). Art is more likely to be bought and preservved by private investors. Small business desperately needed in this area.
James, London. The football stadium in Stoke-on-Trent, referred to by Edwina, is now owned wholly by the football club. The council made a tidy profit on it's initial investment. So a little sum will now hopefully now be available for the Colliery!
Mrs Bettine M Scully As a teacher in the 1980's I took 3 groups of 50 junior age children to the Colliery It was the best experiance ever for these kids to help them understand the way folks lived and worked at the time and how the Industrial was based on Coal. There is only one pit remaining and thousands of paintinsThere in my mind is no competionBettine
Nanette Wise, London The National Gallery does NOT need more Poussin paintings. We DO need to remember our own history however bad. My father was a miner and I wish that to be remembered and admired.
Peter Cronin-Hill Whitstable in Kent we have just returned from a visit to Big Pit in Blanavon in Wales, it was gripping and for the miners being the guids it is their lives
D R Kershaw I'm slightly surprised by today's debate. I have just come back from Edinburgh where I saw Poussin's Seven (not five) Sacraments in the Scottish National Gallery. And very fine they are too. I notice this wasn't mentioned by your man from the National Gallery. How many do we need in GB? Why spend £100 million when you can see the full set in Edinburgh?
Graham Stone, North Staffs Chatterly Whitfiled represents the lives countless miners and the foundation of industry which built this our nation. However good Poussin's paintings are, their is no connection with this country or it's people - they have a purely monetary value. A national trewasure for France or Italy perhaps,but for the UK, take a photograph, put it on ther intenert and move on....
Denise from Ayrshire, Scotland The Poussins are unique, as is any painting and the national Gallery has many unique paintings and as one of your contributors has pointed out the Poussins will not cease to exist but the colliery will.The cultural value of the colliery will increase through time just as the Poussins have.The national gallery will continue to aquire works of art and will also continue to attract visitors.Save the colliery. It is an example of our industrial heritage and the common peoples social history.
Philip Cottrell, Dublin Britain already has a second set of Poussin's sacraments at the National Gallery of Scotland. Isn't having two sets being a little greedy?
J Sherwin Birmingham Why cannot the money can be used to save the mine while the Poussins can be sold to France, where they obviously belong.
John, Edinburgh The colliery is central to Britain`s social and cultural history. The Poussin is essenlially, though perhaps beautiful, not part of such an understanding. The former is needed to understand ourselves but the latter is largely irrelevant
Send us your views on this week's topic.
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Barbara Paris
Having re visited the Stoke on Trent area recently (I was born and bred there), I found it utterly depressing and in desperate need of re vitalisation. The Chatterley Whitfield project would be a start and also provides some employment, although admittedly under 400. Also given that there are examples of Poussins work in Scotland I find the mine a worthwhile project.
J Nicolson London
My grandfather was a miner at Whitfield for nearly 50 years.This colliery provided employment to thousands of men, in what was a proud community.It is imperative that Chatterley Whitfield is saved for future generation to understand their social history.Poussin enthusiasts have their voices represented very well in our society, in contrast to the local community of Chatterley Whitfield. It is imperative that the colliery is saved both to regenerate the area and keep local history alive.
P Chan, Bristol
I remember visiting a Poussin exhibition a few years ago (I think it was at the Royal Academy). These sacraments stood out amongst many beautiful paintings - their cumulative effect was extremely moving. Go see them while you can. I fear it is very unlikely they will be kept in the country, even though they are probably the most important paintings to come onto the Art Market for decades.
ian , bulgaria
as an hgv driver who went against the miners in the strike of the 1980s hauling coal from this colliery and the hem heath colliery to the near by power stations, i feel that the mine needs to be kept as part of our history. there are now few enough working mines left. our children need to see what this country was built with , with coal as a major contributor to many inventions and the finances raised within the country by the miners themselves.
jon cattan
As the Poussins and the colliery scored equal points,the answer stares me in the face.The colliery has plenty of space, open a National Gallery annexe to house both the Poussins and the other paintings not on current view. The two attractions would bolster each other and double each others profits.So put the money into the pot and maybe start the ball rolling by having a whip round the local football stadium for the extra 80 million.
Jim Woodhams, Reading
My wife's grandfather was a miner at Chatterley Whitfield colliery, and in 1931 he died in a mining accident there. It would be a fitting memorial to him and the many other miners who toiled there over the years if we were to protect it. It is a key part of our nation's heritage and we should keep it for posterity and future education.
Chris Angus, Cumbria
I vividly remember going down Chatterly Whitfield in the 1970s when we lived in one of the mining villages on the ridge above. Coal played an enormously important part in the industrial development of this country and Chatterly, as the first million ton pit, is such an iconic site to restore and preserve. Let's not loose it.
Lori Birmingham
Twenty years ago I was, with numerous other teachers, accompanying a large school group to the colliery. Wondering whether I really had to go down in the cage I heard a group of girls also trying to get out of it. 'Are you scared, Miss?' one asked me. Stepping into the cage I assured them that I wasn't and that they shouldn't miss the experience. On the way down we remembered the men and boys who went down every day of their working lives.I have never forgotten Chatterley Whitfield and possibly neither have the girls. Although it seems that the underground workings cannot be re-opened let's not forget the colliery altogether.
John Poyntz, Chepstow
I noted that advocates of the colliery project said nothing about preserving any part of the underground workings, lifting gear, steam engine, boilers etc. In my view the heritage value of a colliery is minimal unless there is access underground, as at Blaenavon. Then, it is considerable. If, as I suspect, the proposal was to use this very large sum of public money just to renovate some of the overground buildings for alternative use and perhaps to tidy up the site a bit, then my vote goes to buying the Poussins.
Janet, Staffordshire
What about the ongoing costs of maintaining each option. Obviously the 80m costs will then be added to by an ongoing requirement for running costs. With the Poussin paintings, surely ongoing maintenance will be far less?
David Collins, Kidderminster
I had the privelege of visiting Chatterley Whitfield minimg museum many years ago when one could go down the pit. An amazing experience.
Nicky in London
I grew up in Birmingham and remember my school visit to Chatterley Whitfield Colliery very clearly. It really brought home the conditions that the miners lived with. To actually go down a mine and feel the claustraphobia and darkness closing in, is something that no photo or painting can do. I understand that the Poussin paintings are a great find for the national gallery but for us every day people who dont get much chance to go to the gallery, let alone look at every picture, its just one more set of pictures. I'd be no more moved by them in person than on screen or on a copy. Seeing the paintings in person wont transport me back to that time, i wont feel the warmth of the people or the smell of the flesh. It would also be nice for something of such importance to the midlands to be taken into account rather than everything going to London (as usual!)
Ian Mitchell, Amesbury, near Stonehenge
The colliery has the potential to become an attraction in its own right, but redevelopment may be difficult. In the 1930s the commander of the aerodrome beside Stonehenge is alleged to have requested the demolition of the henge as a hazard to aircraft! How much of the historic colliery would be similarly viewed by businesses today?
Stephen Woollard, Edinburgh
Its all very well talking about the value of pieces of art or historic places such as a colliery or stonehenge, but all of these types of thing seem to attract support from government, philanthropists and business relatively easily. What I am more concerned about is that we don't seem to have the same view when it coems to natural heritage and biodiversity. Relatively small sums of money would save species and habitats internationally, and if spent wisely support employment and maintenance of a healthy environment for everyone too. If it came to a choice of save a painting or a species I know which I would choose. (I'd hope we could save both). Why is it that support for saving, educating about and active management of natural heritage is so much more difficult to get?The real debate should be about our own attitudes and support for heritage conservation in its very widest sense.
Robin, Newcastle-under-Lyme
I have voted for Chatterley Whitfield, partly because I live in North Staffordshire, but also because it represents the culture of miners and their families that is all too often ignored.
Linda Bridges, Staffs.
As former Education Officer at Chatterley Whitfield,I was priveleged to welcome over a million visitors a year from all over the world. As an educational resource for Science and Social History as well as music and drama it was second to none. The site still houses several listed buildings, and the colliery should be preserved in toto and re-opened for the public as soon as possible. There are many examples of Poussins work, there is only one Chatterley Whitfield.
anne gorton littleborough
who is selling the paintings? perhaps they would donate to the nation. it wont exactly be apauper who owns them.
anon
Having recently visited a wonderful museum in wales, The big pit, I realy feel that england needs something like that. It is part of our history something we should be proud of, futre generations should be able to se for themselves how men women and children used to work, lest we make the same mistakes again. history is something to learn from not file in books nor just to be recorded as a painting.
Daniel, Edinburgh
I felt the question was somewhat misleading. We were asked to choose between either Possuin or Colliery. I think we have another choice - to have both of them!
H Jones Manchester
The colliery will not survive if it doesn't get restoration however some one will buy the paintings thus the decision is made both would survive
Jan, Oxford
I'm interested in the way Edwina Currie chose to use the hypothetical £80m. It was to waste it entirely. By giving just under a quarter of what was required to each project, she ensured that both efforts would go off at half-cock. As for spending the remaining £50m on tax cuts, what nonsense! A one-off of a mere £1 for each of us. Perhaps with enough spin it might buy some votes?
anon, Leeds
As someone from a family of Staffordshire miners up to the early 1990s, when the last North Staffs colliery was closed, I am proud of that heritage and do not in any way feel that it is a shameful or "dirty" part of our past that should be forgotten for a generation or two. People like my family mourn the loss of coal mining as a significant industry in this country at a very emotional level. Surely the miners strike of the 1980s showed the passion of mining communities to protect the industry and the accompanying local economies and culture that they knew would be lost with the loss of mining.I want to be able to show, with pride, my children what a colliery was like and the assemblage of buildings at Chatterley Whitfield would show all facets of colliery life, not just a pitiful pit winding gear wheel surrounded by a flowerbed, which is all that marks so many former colliery sites around the country.
anon, Leeds
As someone from a family of Staffordshire miners up to the early 1990s, when the last North Staffs colliery was closed, I am proud of that heritage and do not in any way feel that it is a shameful or "dirty" part of our past that should be forgotten for a generation or two. People like my family mourn the loss of coal mining as a significant industry in this country at a very emotional level. Surely the miners strike of the 1980s showed the passion of mining communities to protect the industry and the accompanying local economies and culture that they knew would be lost with the loss of mining.I want to be able to show, with pride, my children what a colliery was like and the assemblage of buildings at Chatterley Whitfield would show all facets of colliery life, not just a pitiful pit winding gear wheel surrounded by a flowerbed, which is all that marks so many former colliery sites around the country.
Avril J Evitts
The nation does not need ANOTHER Seven Sacraments; the National does not need another painting (it has plenty in the vaults that are rarely seen).To understand why we are where we are, to have a glimpse of where we are going, we need to know where we came from. Preserving the colliery is essential, purchasing the painting teaches us nothing we do not already know.
Keith Heron, Congleton
May I point out that there is already in North Staffordshire the excellent Apedale mining museum in great need of visitors and support which still has the underground experience (and chip butties) not far from Chatterley Pit.Todays debate in many ways seemed to reflect the classic north/south divide both in the subject and the eventual location of the paintings.The grim north and the cultural south ( I know that Chatterley Whitfield is on the Midland divide, perhaps where both can co-exist) . The lives and toil of the working man sacrificed to give the privileged few plutocrats enormous wealth to buy up the art and culture of the world.Of course it was never that simple, the miners were elite and well paid and many educated their children and elevated them to appreciate the finer things such as music and art. Perhaps most of those would have voted for the Poussin (although I think Turner would have been more popular). Their offspring were trying to live down the hard heritage and ignore the awfulness of the past. Perhaps as one of your panel said, the grandchildren at one step removed can accept that reality. They would want that preserved for their grandchildren.Oh yes my mother's grandparents were all miners, I am a member of English Heritage, I enjoy Suchi and visiting Art Galleries all round the world.So I am pleased it was a draw because both are equally important. The Body And Soul of history.
Tony , Stoke on Trent
This seems to be another situation where we buy artwork for the nation, located you guessed it in a London gallery. Our London galleries are nationally funded have considerable budgets and infrastructure in every respect! This paining be one more in a sea of culturally/natinally important artworks. Chatterly Whitfield is vastly more deserving in terms of preserving our industrial heritage and reminding the nation of the fact that people once made things in this country and did real jobs! Preservation of Chatterly Whitfield will generate much needed tourism to the region and create jobs not only at the venue but locally in supporting industries; its impact will have real legacy. Chatterly Whitfield deserves it, no contest!
Charles Moor
For most people a good reproduction of the painting would be sufficient. Those needing to see the real thing should travel. Too much art is locked away in gallery basements and unseen. Paintings would be ideal subjects for a readily accessible multimedia presentation which would allow the whole population to experience them. Our industrial heritage is easily lost and it should be a responsibility of government rather than a few enthusiasts to make provision for their presentation. If we can preserve castles we can preserve coalmines.
anonymous.
Difficult. But if it is restoring what was the heart of the region and encourages industry, business and jobs, fine. And not least the hard life endured and therefore the proud history to be understood by present and future generations. I also believe that there are many that would love to eradicate totally the miserable and the shameful ownership of mines and the history of mining in this country as though it never existed. Where I live in Wiltshire where the old early 19th Century, Harris Factory in Calne, a magnificent building of several storeys, was demolished after many demands, that it should be made into a Heritage museum of the Pork Industry through several centuries. It was decided that the cost was too great. Today, many feel that the heart of Calne was ripped out and although many new buildings and, some say, sensitive landscaping has taken place, it is a landmark missed and a physical contact lost except through faded sepia and monochromatic photographs. I might have supported the Poussin paintings, which are beautiful, if they were going to be displayed in a region rather than London.
Chris Baldwin (La Rioja, Spain)
I would very much like to be able to access a written copy of the marking criteria the team uses in the show. Can you advise? tHANK YOU
Pauline Canterbury
Having listened to the discussion, saving the Poussins is more important and more viable. These paintings are important for representing the sacraments. It is important to preserve these immages for the future of our spiritual life in this country.
Claire Morris Cirencester Glos
There is a complete set of Poussin's Seven Sacraments, lent by the Duke of Sutherland, in the National Gallery of Scotland. Does the nation need a second, incomplete set.
Nick, Fife
It's astonishing that the panel have not joined up cultural wealth with ecological resilience in their decision-making. There is a greater context to these discussions that relate the viability of our species on earth, and the imperitive to act on climate change as well as wider local/gobal ecological collapse. Surely factors of whether the investment can also be a 'win' for the environment would provide a critical extra line of discernment for decision-making, and help our panel make a creative jump from existing mindsets (fashioned by conditions of yesterday and today) into the priorities of tomorrow?
Simon Watson, Romsey,Hants
I have voted(for the Poussins)but noted Edwina Currie's comment about the difficulty of redeveloping coal mine sites due to subsidence.Has anyone ever thought about using mine shafts as land-fill sites and thus achieving a solution to two problems 'at a stroke'.
Anthony - Sweden
In my opinion, the Colliery deserves the money. The cultural benefit is enormous not to mention that the Colliery represents a more "living" culture.The paintings will always remain in existence, but if lost, the Colliery is gone forever.My judgement is based on the fact that this colliery is the best of its kind. In the end, we cannot preserve everything because that stands in the way of progress.In the context of total expenditure on cultural heritage, GDP or other economic indicators, £80 million is not very much money.
Peter Gray -Richmond
Interestinf idea for a programme but the key point of the programme i.e. the decision of where the funds are to be allocated, should not be allowed to be split, as it was by Edwina Currie.The whole point is that the panel have to make a difficult decision, regardless of whether it is 'political' or not
Gail Ward Emsworth Hampshire
My grandfather was a miner in Biddulph - Chatterley Whitfield fits with the regeneration of the area - Visitor attractions include Mow Cop and Biddulph Grange. Restoring at least part of Chatterley is a social and educational responsibility. Chatterley is in the middle of the UK and accessible to many. Regeneration is needed here rather than a golf course and sushi - or is this what Edwina wants (does she have ahouse on Rudyard lake). Art is more likely to be bought and preservved by private investors. Small business desperately needed in this area.
James, London.
The football stadium in Stoke-on-Trent, referred to by Edwina, is now owned wholly by the football club. The council made a tidy profit on it's initial investment. So a little sum will now hopefully now be available for the Colliery!
Mrs Bettine M Scully
As a teacher in the 1980's I took 3 groups of 50 junior age children to the Colliery It was the best experiance ever for these kids to help them understand the way folks lived and worked at the time and how the Industrial was based on Coal. There is only one pit remaining and thousands of paintinsThere in my mind is no competionBettine
Nanette Wise, London
The National Gallery does NOT need more Poussin paintings. We DO need to remember our own history however bad. My father was a miner and I wish that to be remembered and admired.
Peter Cronin-Hill Whitstable in Kent
we have just returned from a visit to Big Pit in Blanavon in Wales, it was gripping and for the miners being the guids it is their lives
D R Kershaw
I'm slightly surprised by today's debate. I have just come back from Edinburgh where I saw Poussin's Seven (not five) Sacraments in the Scottish National Gallery. And very fine they are too. I notice this wasn't mentioned by your man from the National Gallery. How many do we need in GB? Why spend £100 million when you can see the full set in Edinburgh?
Graham Stone, North Staffs
Chatterly Whitfiled represents the lives countless miners and the foundation of industry which built this our nation. However good Poussin's paintings are, their is no connection with this country or it's people - they have a purely monetary value. A national trewasure for France or Italy perhaps,but for the UK, take a photograph, put it on ther intenert and move on....
Denise from Ayrshire, Scotland
The Poussins are unique, as is any painting and the national Gallery has many unique paintings and as one of your contributors has pointed out the Poussins will not cease to exist but the colliery will.The cultural value of the colliery will increase through time just as the Poussins have.The national gallery will continue to aquire works of art and will also continue to attract visitors.Save the colliery. It is an example of our industrial heritage and the common peoples social history.
Philip Cottrell, Dublin
Britain already has a second set of Poussin's sacraments at the National Gallery of Scotland. Isn't having two sets being a little greedy?
J Sherwin Birmingham
Why cannot the money can be used to save the mine while the Poussins can be sold to France, where they obviously belong.
John, Edinburgh
The colliery is central to Britain`s social and cultural history. The Poussin is essenlially, though perhaps beautiful, not part of such an understanding. The former is needed to understand ourselves but the latter is largely irrelevant