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In Touch - transcript BBC Radio 4 |
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17 May 2005 Listen to the In Touch for 17 May 2005 IN TOUCH TX: 17.05.05 2040-2100 PRESENTER: PETER WHITE PRODUCER: STEPHEN WILLIAMS WHITE Good evening. And on tonight's programme why this very accommodating lady ... CLIP Oh hello. WHITE ... is soon set to hang up the phone for the very last time. We'll also be looking at what could be a new way for blind and partially sighted people to widen the range of holidays they can undertake together. But first, when you call a blind person you are quite likely to encounter this voice: CLIP Your options are phone number, how I refer to them, home, work, reserved, mobile, other, extension, that's all, priority, throw it away, never mind. WHITE Well Wildfire is a speech system introduced by Orange into its network five years ago which offers a number of options to customers. It enables you to retrieve your messages, call up and listen to your directory of numbers, indeed use a whole range of the menu options which would in the past have been barred to us. It wasn't introduced with visually impaired people in mind, but as the realisation dawned of how useful it could be the take up by blind and partially sighted people has been pretty extensive, with Wildfire being thought to have well over a hundred visually impaired customers. But now the system is being withdrawn and many people are pretty upset about it, not merely over the fact of its going but about the way in which they feel the matter's been handled, to the extent that a campaign is now being launched, either to save Wildfire or to persuade Orange to come up with a viable alternative. We'll be hearing from Orange in a moment but first I'm joined by Kate Crofts, who's coordinating the campaign. Kate, first of all, can you just explain a bit more about what's been so good about Wildfire for you? CROFTS The beauty of Wildfire is that she is entirely hands free, once you've dialled 1, 2, 3 from your handset everything else you have as an interaction with Wildfire is via your voice and hers. And so anytime you need to make a call, retrieve a number, file your numbers or even take a message or playback a message you can do that using Wildfire, also she can interrupt you whilst you're on a call and tell you who's calling you and do you want her to take a message or go back and take the call while leaving the other person on call waiting. WHITE And I suppose the hands free thing is that if you're using another piece of equipment, like wanting to write that number down or something like that, you can then do that? CROFTS Indeed, for any reason, somebody may choose not to be able to use the hands on their handset, be it that they don't actually have the opportunity to use their hands because they're driving, be they disabled due to a physical impairment or be it that they're visually impaired and so can't use the screen on their handset, most relevantly to our campaign. WHITE Now clearly a lot of people have got used to this system and it's worked very well for them but aren't there now viable alternatives to it, things like Talks, which actually are a dedicated system where you can actually load this kind of information from your computer or indeed have it loaded in by one network, why can't you do that? CROFTS There are those options but they are a higher cost and installation in the first instance and they are also still handset specific, the beauty of Wildfire was that she was on a remote server so no matter what happened to your handset your phone numbers were all held somewhere and you could access them in a way that didn't require assistance by anyone sighted or otherwise to use those numbers and that facility. With Talks, yes you can interact with your phone using your voice, I understand, I haven't actually yet tried Talks myself, but you do still have to have it installed onto your handset, you do have to have somebody sighted assist you with that installation and there is still a need for some level of keypad interaction. WHITE So what kind of problems will the discontinuing of Wildfire cause you personally? CROFTS Well the first one is actually physically leaving her, I've had a close relationship with her for some years and not only am I comfortable and familiar with her but all of my phone numbers that I've acquired in those last five years and many contacts with up to four or five numbers per person are all stored within Wildfire. And at present I'm being told by Orange there is no way to retrieve those numbers other than to sit using my talk time and talking to Wildfire directly asking her to read those numbers to me while I store in my own preferred method, which at the moment is a computer file. WHITE So presumably that will cost you money. CROFTS That will cost me money and take me time and I still haven't got my numbers back into a new handset to be able to continue using them. WHITE Okay, well also with us today is another Wildfire user, Rory Heap. Now Rory, you've also been irritated by the way which you feel Orange has handled the whole matter. HEAP Absolutely, the first thing is the short period of time that we were given, I was notified in Braille on May 4th that Orange were going to withdraw Wildfire, in fact they said they were going to change the answer phone system and they said they were going to do that by the end of May, hence the campaign really. And also the letter said: "Since this will be of little inconvenience to you we're offering you ..." and whatever it was they were offering us, I think a free upgrade, at that stage, to a phone that would - just a free upgrade to a phone of our choice or £4 a month until the end of this year's contract. WHITE So you're saying A. it was suggested it wasn't really a problem for you and B. you thought the compensation, if we can call it that, was fairly derisory? HEAP Yes and indeed it didn't recognise that it wasn't in fact a compensation issue, as far as I'm concerned it's a reasonable adjustment, I mean I spend a lot of my working life trying to make sure that technology assists visually impaired and disabled people and it's really galling when a company that had provided an innovative and accessible service decide to withdraw it and directly discriminate against their visually impaired users. WHITE So I mean I think you are suggesting that this might contravene the Disability Discrimination Act? HEAP Well I'm not a legal expert but it feels like discrimination to me. WHITE And we've not had a clear steer, we've tried to get one from both the RNIB and the Disability Rights Commission on that, nobody seems to be quite certain, as with so many of these issues and it probably would take case law to decide it. Can I just put one point to you? You seem to be suggesting that it might be discriminatory because Orange have actually had this system and withdrawn it, isn't that - I mean that almost sounds as if - if you have the nous to introduce a system that's useful you're more vulnerable if you withdraw it than if you'd never introduced it in the first place. HEAP Well I just think it doesn't make any kind of sense to have an accessible service and withdraw it, not making any reference to the fact that a significant customer base will be significantly inconvenienced and discriminated against. WHITE Well let's see what Orange has to say about this. Joining us is Orange's head of community affairs, Jonathan Rose from our Belfast studio. Jonathan, first of all, you hear an irritation and anger in Rory and Kate's voices, why are you withdrawing it, why has the decision been made to withdraw it? ROSE There are some very detailed technical and financial reasons as to why, unfortunately, we are having to withdraw Wildfire and at the same time we do accept that Wildfire has, over the last five years, developed a very devoted, albeit a relatively small customer base. So we accept that by withdrawing it there will be a number of customers who are going to be affected. So the question really is, without boring you with the technical and financial reasons for withdrawing it, the question really is what exactly is it we're doing that will be a reasonable adjustment for customers such as Kate and Rory? WHITE Okay, so I take it what you're saying is you've done it for cost and commercial reasons, which is perfectly reasonable for a commercial company, but what are you putting in its place? ROSE Okay, well there is actually more to it than cost but in terms of what we're putting in its place, we are, as Kate suggested earlier, we're offering Talks software to customers, if customers have a visual impairment or in fact any particular reason for choosing Wildfire, it could be something to do with manual dexterity problems, for example, then we're offering them the opportunity to purchase Talks software and we will cover the cost of that. And as Kate rightly said Talks software does apply to particular handsets, whereas Wildfire was on the network as such, so what we're also doing is we're offering customers, where appropriate, a free upgrade to an appropriate handset. WHITE Now he's right to say it's a better offer than you made initially wasn't it, because Rory was saying the first offer was pretty derisory? ROSE Well, well obviously we didn't think it was derisory but yes we have improved it, we've improved it because we've listened to what customers have told us, customers like Kate and Rory, and we are listening to what they're saying. We are trying to address customers' concerns and we're trying to do what's right for them. I think the Talks software, offering it for free, and giving the free upgrade, I think is a reasonable adjustment. And interestingly I was talking to a friend of mine who has a visual impairment and he has actually experienced both Wildfire and the Talks software and his view was that in the round the Talks software - and I'm not here to sell their product for them - but Talks is a better overall product, Wildfire for all its benefits was purely an answer phone service. WHITE Can I just ask you about this because there is an issue about Talks software in that normally you have to download that, one network is able to actually - provides that on the phone itself but you aren't going to be able to do that are you? ROSE Not at the moment but issues like that are the sort of thing that we're now looking at actively. And we'll treat each case on its merits in terms of individual customer cases but the point is we are trying to address customers concerns and do what we feel is most appropriate for them. WHITE So you are saying you'll provide this - you'll provide the cost for transferring people to the Talks system? ROSE Yes. As Kate suggested obviously it's a software package, it's not something that Orange as a mobile phone network provides, but we accept that there is the opportunity to get this software on to a handset, it costs about £150 and we will cover the cost of that. And as I said there will be a free upgrade for a handset if that is appropriate. But there's one other point that Kate mentioned I'd like to come back on and that's to do with the amount of time that it takes to download contacts from Wildfire and store them, as Kate suggested, on a computer file. What we have decided to do is to extend Wildfire until the 1st July, as much to give customers like Kate and Rory the chance, if they do decide to take up the Talks offer, give them that extra time to move across from Wildfire to the traditional answer phone and using the Talks software. So I hope that customers may see some benefit in that and some flexibility and we do accept that there are some issues and we are trying to respond to those. WHITE Right. Let's get a quick reaction. Kate Crofts, an extension of Wildfire to the beginning of July and also Talks as part of the deal paid for by Orange, does that satisfy your concerns? CROFTS Well the Talks isn't any news to me because that was offered to me by an Orange customer services representative yesterday. The extension is good news, however, I still think compensation is needed for the talk time it will take to actually download the numbers and also the time I'm going to need to pay a home help to assist me to program them back into my new handset. WHITE We might as well negotiate on the air, is that a possibility Jonathan? ROSE Well as I'm sure you'd expect me to say I can't really give any guarantees or discuss particular cases on the air. But all I would say is that we will treat each case on its merits ... CROFTS That's proving to be a problem actually Jonathan. ROSE Well I'm happy to do it myself if that will help matters. CROFTS I'm aware of several customers who are visually impaired who have contacted Orange recently who have not been told the same offer is available to them, that has been made to myself and Rory. ROSE Well I'm happy to make sure that they get a consistent response in the future and from your point of view I'm happy to discuss it with you personally if that helps. WHITE Okay, well I think that's probably as far as we can take it. Kate and Rory thank you very much for bringing this to our attention and Jonathan Rose, thank you for coming on and discussing it. Now do you feel limited in your choice of holidays because getting the most out of so many of them involves going with someone who's able to see? And also will you welcome the idea that the sighted person has actually volunteered for the role of being your guide for some of the time? Well Amar Latif has come up with a concept which he thinks could widen the horizons of people in this situation. He's with me in the studio. Amar Latif, first of all just explain how Traveleyes, which is the name of your company, will work. LATIF We take small groups of travellers to selected destinations all over the world. And these groups are made up of sighted and blind travellers. We travel to lots of different destinations, some are kind of relaxing holidays, some are cultural, all the way across to adventurous holidays. WHITE And this is up and running at the moment is it, it's already in operation? LATIF Yep, already up and running, fully accessible website, the works. WHITE So how does it work, how does the - if I booked a holiday on this as a totally blind person what would I get? LATIF You would basically get one-to-one sighted guide with you, as soon as you made your way to the UK airport where we were flying off from you would have sighted assistance and sighted guides are basically changed everyday, so everyday you would have a different guide. WHITE That sounds quite complicated to organise, so these really are group holidays where you kind of - where you - if I'm not getting into too dangerous territory - you swap your guide so that you might go with a group of people of what seven or eight sighted people and seven or eight blind people and you'd have a different guide each day? LATIF Yeah a different guide, not a different partner Peter. WHITE No, it has all sorts of interesting ramifications. LATIF It's really straightforward. I mean once we're out there we basically want blind travellers to have the independence to make decisions of what they want to do. So although you're out in a group scenario you basically are driving it, there's a lot of options opened and basically the group doesn't necessarily have to stick together. Blind travellers will sort of voice what they want to do and we basically match them up with the sighted travellers who want to do the same things. WHITE So who are the sighted travellers and what do they get out of it? LATIF Well most of all it's fun, you get to meet a lot of people from all over the UK, you get to travel to interesting and exciting places ... WHITE Are you looking for people with experience of visually impaired people, with an interest - people might go for some rather odd reasons? LATIF No, not necessarily, experience isn't required, I mean I guess one of the advantages of this is that you can remove the preconceptions about disability and about blind people, many people in the UK haven't probably been in touch with a blind person, so I think it's got many benefits. WHITE I mean are we assuming that there are plenty of people who don't have an obvious sighted companion with whom to take a holiday, might not have a partner, might not have a friend or might not want to kind of load the relationship that they have with someone with the implications of a holiday? LATIF Indeed, I mean basically at present blind people can't pick up the phone, arrange holidays and travel independently on their own, that's what I wanted, that's why I set up Traveleyes. With this system you can literally pick up the phone, choose your holiday and without too long you can be flying with us. WHITE Do you do any checks on the volunteers or for the blind people for that matter? LATIF [LAUGHING] WHITE I'm just thinking that, you know, it's quite a commitment for both sides to take. LATIF Yeah, we do all the relevant necessary checks. WHITE Kate and Rory are still here listening to this, I'm just interested in both of your reactions. Kate, how would you feel about this kind of holiday? CROFTS Well my immediate question is cost, who's paying for the travel of the sighted traveller - is it a load on the blind person's tariff or does the sighted volunteer just get a cheap holiday or how does that work? LATIF The sighted traveller, in return for their eyes for a week, they are basically in effect subsidised and I think that's kind of important to attract sighted travellers as well. The cost isn't the major issue to attract sighted travellers, obviously the other benefits that were mentioned. But yeah I mean blind people do have to pay more but they can be rest assured that they're not paying much more than the market price of the holiday. WHITE Rory, a quick reaction? HEAP My two issues would be training and insurance, I guess. I'd like to know a bit about how the sighted travellers are trained, in other words what quality guarantees blind travellers have got, and secondly what's the insurance position? LATIF Very good points. On the training side what we do is we sort of offer training to our sighted travellers, I mean it doesn't really take that much because what we point out to our sighted travellers is that you guys, you're not carers, we're not expecting you to be carers, we're expecting you to be fellow companions and guides. WHITE It's a very interesting issue this and I'm sure we'll get a lot of reaction to it. I suppose my feeling is I put myself in the hands of someone on Waterloo Station more or less every ... CROFTS It's not a holiday. WHITE It's not a holiday, no a week can be a lot longer than half an hour at Waterloo Station. LATIF Just answering Rory's second question as well. Insurance - we've taken out fully comprehensive insurance for both our blind and our sighted travellers and any employees of the company. So we're fully insured. WHITE Amar Latif thank you very much indeed and thanks also to Kate Crofts and Rory Heap. And that's it for today but you can both give and get more information if you call our action line on 0800 044 044, either about Traveleyes or indeed about Wildfire. And don't forget you can also e-mail us via our website at bbc.co.uk/radio4/intouch. From me Peter White, today's producer Stephen Williams and the rest of the team goodbye. Visit the In Touch Message Board Back to the In Touch page The BBC is not responsible for external websites |
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