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In Touch - transcript BBC Radio 4 |
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14 December 2004 Listen to the In Touch for 14 December 2004 IN TOUCH TX: 14.12.04 2040-2100 PRESENTER: PETER WHITE PRODUCER: CHERYL GABRIEL WHITE Good Evening. Later tonight we'll be spending a day with the blind teenager who's come halfway around the world to sample the life of a British blind school. But first, the continuing saga of whether guide dogs should be allowed to travel on escalators. Is it safe, either for the dogs, or their owners? Well there did seem to be something of a difference of opinion between the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association and London Underground about the reasons for the restrictions. GDBA had told us that it was because of a local bylaw which prohibited dogs on escalators; but London Underground said that they were purely guided by the GDBA itself, and its assertion that there were risks. Well this week we're trying to clear this up. This is what the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association told us when we went back to them for further clarification. STATEMENT FROM GUIDE DOGS FOR THE BLIND ASSOCIATIONAt the moment guide dogs are not allowed to walk on escalators under London Underground bylaw 16.6 of the Transport Act 1962 as amended. Guide dogs met with London Underground sometime ago to discuss whether it would possible to allow guide dogs to travel on escalators. And in the interests of our dogs' welfare we both agreed that the rule that dogs should not be allowed on London Underground escalators should stand. The current design of escalators creates a high risk of dogs' feet being caught in the teeth of the escalator. Guide Dogs is pleased if London Underground has now said it would be willing to change its rule on allowing guide dogs to walk on escalators in the future if probably trained. We look forward to working with London Underground, regarding how we might best move forward by making operational or engineering changes. London Underground had previously indicated that they would make resources available to investigate design changes to escalators which would enable them to be safe for guide dogs. WHITE Tom Pey of the association also told us a couple of weeks ago that if London Underground really had no objection to dogs on escalators, then they were happy to go back into talks with them about it, and he would be on the phone to them to arrange a meeting. So has that happened, and what's London Underground's attitude now? Well joining me in the studio is Chris Upfold, who's Accessibility Manager with London Underground. Chris, can we clarify this once and for all - is there a bylaw or is it, as I think we were told before, the advice you get from the GDBA? UPFOLD In the London Underground conditions of carriage it currently says that dogs are not supposed to be used on the escalator. Now clearly there's a difference between regular dogs and guide dogs and we'd be more than happy - I'd be more than happy to change those conditions of carriage. WHITE So in exactly the same way as there are exemptions about things like going into restaurants you would imagine that those would be made to using the Underground? UPFOLD Absolutely, I mean if we can understand that it is safe and the guide dog - the GDBA tells us it is safe we wouldn't have any problems looking at those. WHITE Just out of interest have you had anymore contact with the GDBA since our programme went out a couple of weeks ago? UPFOLD Not to date no. WHITE So you're still waiting for a call? UPFOLD Still waiting but I'll take it on myself to get in contact with them as well. WHITE Just to give people some idea - who don't know about such things - I mean do you have any idea how many visually impaired people - blind and partially sighted people - use the Underground? UPFOLD I don't know to be honest with you, I don't think it's an insignificant number but don't have any details. Clearly one of the difficulties is we would be able to count say the number of people that use white canes and other people that use guide dogs but it would be very difficult to know actually the number of people that have a visual impairment or are partially sighted. WHITE But I think we can safely say a substantial number of people would regard it as the simplest way of getting round London. UPFOLD I wouldn't disagree with that at all. WHITE So what would now have to happen in order for this to be resolved? UPFOLD Well clearly we have a responsibility to make sure our customers are safe and the GDBA has a responsibility to make sure guide dogs are safe and their customers are safe. So essentially I need to meet with them, we need to understand what the risks are, if there are actually risks, and if there are no risks there then it's a very easy process to change our conditions of carriage. WHITE You could clear up one thing for us and that's this talk about the design of escalators. Now as I understand it in a number of countries guide dogs and their owners are trained to use escalators, what's so different about ours then? UPFOLD I don't think fundamentally there is anything different about ours. Clearly London Underground's escalators are different than high street shops, they're heavier, a more industrial design, but I think probably where the initial guidance came from is that we used to have a number of wooden escalators around the network and most of those are now gone - I'm not sure how many are left, I'm aware of very, very few - and that ... WHITE And one closed at Marylebone only the other day didn't it? UPFOLD That's right. WHITE So is this really then a matter of actually doing some more research into whether there are risks to guide dogs and their owners or not? UPFOLD I do think we need to better understand what the risks are with escalators that we use today on the Underground. WHITE Is there money available to do more research? UPFOLD I think that was a discussion that was had with the RNIB and Transport for London several years ago. I'm perfectly happy to work with the GDBA on determining what actually needs to be done, I'm not sure what sort of resources are required at this point but happy to talk with them and determine that. WHITE I mean the thing that strikes me as a blind person who doesn't use a guide dog is that if you want to travel around independently in London then the Underground is often the easiest way to do it, it intimidates some people because it's noisy and so forth, but you do have independence. Now if you can't use parts of that then you are really being very severely restricted I would have thought. UPFOLD Absolutely and frankly the policy that we have now of stopping escalators for guide dog users to use them is very, very difficult for us and especially at heavily used stations. So if we could work out a way that guide dogs could use escalators it would be an awful lot better for us as well. WHITE So you would actually - if it were safe - you would rather be able to let blind people go on the escalators with their dogs? UPFOLD Absolutely. WHITE Chris Upfold thank you very much indeed. Meanwhile, if officials or various organisations can't quite work out a solution to this problem, some of In Touch's listeners have been devising more practical, indeed literally down-to-earth solutions. MONTAGE OF LISTENERS I would have thought it would be possible for a shoe to be able to be designed which would be both waterproof and also light, perhaps a little metal thing underneath, so that they'd be safe for the dogs on escalators. I believe that they should make shoes for the dogs - something like snow shoes. Imagine a tennis racket - yeah? Imagine this in miniature. Well it would have a rubber sole, as the dog pressed down on it, it could have room to spread out. And that way when they got on the escalator and so forth it wouldn't catch in it. My suggestion about getting up the escalator is to put a small bootie around the dog's foot. The toe cap of the bootie being about one inch deep or so and then the leg portion being open at the front with an overlap, so that the whole thing could be fastened with Velcro, making the boot and legging comfortable round the dog's feet. WHITE And those ingenious thoughts on canine footwear came from Gywneth Jones in Newcastle, Jerry Kavanagh from London and Jack Whiting from Bude in Cornwall. Of course we put these ideas as well to the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association and this was their reaction. STATEMENT FROM GUIDE DOGS FOR THE BLIND ASSOCIATION The Guide Dogs for the Blind Association has investigated the possibility of guide dogs wearing small boots to protect their paws. The best example we've found comes from Japan. Unfortunately to prevent the dogs paws being impeded when it's walking the boots are slightly loose, providing flexibility of movement. This however means there is a risk of the boots becoming caught in the escalator, so the risk of serious injury remains. As part of the risk assessment of escalators we appeal to anyone who feels they can recommend or design a boot which could overcome these problems whilst continuing to protect the dog's paw. WHITE And we will of course continue to monitor this story for you. Now 19-year-old Lauren Hayes is about to return to Australia, after taking a gap year in the United Kingdom. Lauren is totally blind, and she's about to start on a music degree at Melbourne University. But since last January she's been working at New College in Worcester, which is a school for blind and partially-sighted students. She's been helping out with music tuition, and using her linguistic skills to help the pupils learn German. And if all this weren't enough, Lauren has been given some of the responsibility for ensuring that students stay on the straight and narrow. Well has she had time to feel homesick for Oz? We sent our reporter Mani Djazmi to share a day in Lauren's busy life. ACTUALITY - TRAIN ANNOUNCEMENT Ladies and gentlemen, approaching Worcester [indistinct word] Street. ... HAYES I've done a lot more independent travel than what I did in Australia. I'd done a little bit of train travel back home but it wasn't anything like being in England. I remember the first half term break I had I was going to London, it was just the responsibility of getting to the train station and just doing everything and it was quite daunting the first time and especially when I arrived at Paddington, even though I had my friend to meet me, we still had to sort of go on the Underground and just doing all those things at first - I was glad that I had someone to help me. But then gradually as the year went on I was more confident to go - to do train journeys by myself - I've done the Underground now, which is quite a scary thing but I've done that on my own. And I'm glad that I've been able to do that because now if I get lost or something I have the confidence to say - I need help, I'm stuck. So I think next year when I start university and I'll be in Melbourne sort of living and travelling around the city, the independence that I've learnt from here will definitely be a big help. BELL RINGING I work in the music department, I play the piano and I sing as well. I used to play flute. And this is a year 8 music class. Over this last half term they've been composing Christmas songs and they've used the words from the song called Such a Tiny Child and we're re-recording it in the recording studio they're all in the classroom and I'm the studio with all the equipment attempting to record them and I hope it works. [High pitched noise] Everyone has headphones on and I can communicate with them by pressing these buttons, talking into a microphone so they can hear what I'm saying and then we can hear them here through speakers that are like on the wall. And don't do that please, whoever did that. Okay I'm about to start recording so just all like be quiet. PIANO AND SINGING DJAZMI What did your parents say when you told them that you were planning on going to the other side of the world for a year? HAYES They said I think we need to have a family discussion about this and just like talk about it. Then once they got used to the idea they decided it was a good opportunity and they still found it hard to know that I was going to be away from them for a whole year but they said as long as I was happy doing what I really wanted to do then they were fine with that. And I was quite persistent, I was like I really want to do this because it's a good chance to just get away from home for a bit - not that I don't love you or anything mum and dad - but it's just nice to learn some independent kind of skills and things. SINGING Holidays - that was an interesting one because often it would be hard to find somewhere to go and at one stage I was thinking of going home because I was like - oh I'm not going to have anywhere to go, I'm just going to be like wandering the streets of England like begging or something. But eventually I did find places to go - like I went to stay with friends around England and I went to an international computer camp in Hungary. But in some ways it was quite difficult because you're always worrying about where you were going to go next and what you were going to do but I survived. SINGING ACTUALITY Is there anything I can do to help? That will be very nice Brian, thank you for offering. ... none of it is mine. Yeah whether it's yours ... ... doing it, it's supposed to be us lot doing it. Well whether it's yours or not... HAYES Sometimes I have to nag people to do things like their washing up and that's always fun because everybody denies that it's their washing up, so you have - they say no it wasn't me it was this person, so then you run around the whole hostel trying to find out whose washing up it is. But in the end people just get so sick of you nagging them that someone does their unit's washing up, regardless of whether it's their own or not. If washing up has been left in a unit for quite some time and it hasn't been done then their whole unit is gated, meaning that they can't go anywhere off campus. ACTUALITY I'm going to do unit one's washing up now. Oh no, no, Naomi, I'm going ... HAYES Especially for subjects like maths and chemistry and physics you have all the help you need, you have special equipment, the teachers are all proficient in Braille and so whereas when I was in mainstream I missed out on that a bit because when I did maths and science and things the teachers didn't know Braille, they didn't know the best way to show a diagram to me and even though I had support from integration teachers and things I didn't get the full benefit of a lesson like doing an experiment or something. So I think academically special schools are quite good. However, socially I think you need - it's important for young people to have sighted friends as well, so that they can live in the mainstream society with sighted people. ACTUALITY Oh it's not working. Oh my god, Richard where are you going? I have no idea. HAYES It's always a bit of a mission going out to different places. For example, when we go to the pub if there are more totally blind people than partials, we'll have one partially sighted person perhaps guiding three people and this is across say a footbridge or a number of roads, so you sort of have just hope and prayer that you'll get there in one piece. But generally we can cope fairly well. If you have a couple of students getting a bit tipsy and they have to try and find their way back to school afterwards it's always quite entertaining watching them trying to cross a road or whatever. But it's also just good to get off campus for a bit. SINGING Well Nicola is one of the students who is in her final year at Worcester and we've performed quite a lot of stuff together over this year and we thought as a bit of a memento of the year that we should make a CD with a view of the songs that we've done. This is No Frontiers - it's been recorded by a few people, Mary Black a famous Irish singer and also the Corrs have done a cover version of that. I'm not really sure what it's about, I guess it's one of those ones you have to try and interpret for yourself. SINGING The main thing I miss about home is being with a family and just having that kind of routine, like if for some reason I've slept through my alarm or something I'd have mum going - Lauren it's time to go to school - or I'd be woken up by dad in the kitchen getting his breakfast and banging all the plates around or something. Now that it's coming up to Christmas and I know that I'm going home soon then I'm getting really excited about seeing my family and my friends and starting university and everything. SINGING MONTAGE OF STUDENT I think Lauren's complete and utterly cool, contributed lots to choir and some of the stuff she's done which is great. Lauren's an excellent singer and she's funny and I get on well with her. I don't think I can sum up in words really how much she's helped because she's close in age to the students and they really look up to her. When I got bad results in my exams I thought why don't I quit piano but Lauren showed me what you can do with it. Thank you very much Lauren. SINGING WHITE Some of the New College pupils, helped by Lauren Hayes over the past 12 months, and showing their appreciation. That report by Mani Djazmi. Just time to tell you about two special programmes coming up over the Christmas period. Next week we meet veteran actor Peter Sallis - you know, Clegg in Last of the Summer Wine, and the voice of Wallace in Wallace and Gromit. Well over recent years Peter has developed Macular Degeneration, which is one of the most common causes of sight loss affecting your central vision, but he continues to work, and do what many of you do when this happens - cope. SALLIS The only thing I've got going for me is something I've had since I was a child, which is an awful sense of humour and consequently when I am breaking down and sobbing and thinking - I've just written it down - I've just put the - where, where - and all that sort of stuff is going on, I then get the giggles. And while I can continue to get the giggles I know I'm alright. WHITE That's next week and on the following Tuesday, a very special programme producer Cheryl Gabriel and I have just got back from Beijing where we were invited to share the work of a group of young Chinese men and women who've set up their own version of In Touch, inspired, we're assured, by our own programme. On the 28th December we'll be bringing you a full half hour edition of In Touch and for that week only we begin at 9.30 p.m. where we get a fascinating insight into the lives and concerns of blind and partially sighted people in a country which is changing at a startlingly rapid rate. Do join us for that and don't forget we welcome your comments on anything on the programme on 0800 044 044 or you can e-mail us at bbc.co.uk/radio4 and then find us via the links. That's it from me Peter White, producer Cheryl Gabriel and the rest of the team. Goodbye. CLIP: PETER SALLIS IN: OUT: DUR: 53" PETER: That's Peter Sallis, next week, and then the following Tuesday a very special programme. Producer Cheryl Gabriel and I have just got back from Beijing, where we were invited to share the work of a group of young Chinese men and women who've set up their own version of In Touch, inspired we're assured by our own programme. On the 28th of December we'll be bringing you a full half-hour edition of In Touch, (and for that week only we start at 9.30pm) where we get a fascinating insight into the lives and concerns of blind and partially sighted people in a country which is changing at a startlingly rapid rate. Do join us for that, and don't forget, we welcome your comments on anything on 0800 044044; or you can email us at bbc.co.uk/radio four, then via the links to in touch. That's it from me Peter White, and producer Cheryl Gabriel, and the rest of the team; goodbye. Visit the In Touch Message Board Back to the In Touch page The BBC is not responsible for external websites |
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