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 | In Touch - transcript BBC Radio 4 |
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| 06 April 2004 Listen to the In Touch for 06 April 2004 IN TOUCH TX: 06.04.04 2040-2100 PRESENTER: PETER WHITE PRODUCER: CHERYL GABRIEL WHITE Good evening. In a moment we'll be hearing from the former treasurer of the Royal National Institute of the Blind, recently asked to resign because of disagreements over policy. We'll also be discovering why the RSPCA disagrees with the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association about how long a guide dog can safely and happily travel alongside their owners on passenger flights. And we'll also be keeping In Touch listeners, contrary to our usual policy, in the dark. ACTUALITY - THE DARK EXHIBITION AT THE SCIENCE MUSEUM WHITE Well an intriguing combination of Doctor Who and Porridge and goodness knows what else, more from Mani Djazmi's report later in the programme. Last week we heard how after an acrimonious assembly meeting the RNIB's treasurer was asked to step down six months before the natural end of his contract. The chief executive of the RNIB said on this programme last week that this was the result of differences over policy but she declined to explain in detail what those differences were, although she did emphasise there was no imputation against David Gadbury's character or the way he did his job. In a statement to us Mr Gadbury said that he was disappointed and upset about what had happened and he also suggested that the RNIB should be more open in its governance. Well after a few days reflection David Gadbury has agreed to talk to us in more detail and when we met yesterday I asked David Gadbury to explain the reasons behind his early resignation. GADBURY I think it's really up to RNIB to say my reasons for resignation and I don't really want to get into a position of trying to anticipate what they might comment on. It's obvious that one of the issues was my speaking to assembly members and trying to explain to them the reasons for our present financial difficulties. And I think it's fairly clear that they weren't over-impressed by that. WHITE Would you like the RNIB to come out and say why they felt you ought to resign? GADBURY Yes I would quite frankly, I think it might be helpful in terms of seeing whether there are ways in which the overall governance could be improved and to establish a bit more clearly what the role of trustees are and also what the role of the honorary officers are as well. WHITE I'd like to come on to the business of governance because that clearly was something that the RNIB didn't really agree with, as far as we can tell from their response, but just on the business of the RNIB's financial problem, can you tell us what you told the assembly? GADBURY Well first of all I must make it absolutely clear that RNIB is not in financial difficulties, its asset base is very sound, its losses at the moment or its deficit is small in comparison with its total income. The management - the chief executive and director of finance - are absolutely committed to bringing it back on to a level field and I think there are no future problems, the board is also fully committed. What I tried to explain to the assembly was why I thought we'd got to the present position, because after all we're now looking at the third year of significant cuts and I felt they were entitled to an explanation. WHITE So what is the problem as you see it? GADBURY It's very simple, we've been simply spending more money than we've been getting in. And this has been going on for a number of years, the reserves have therefore been run down to a level which is no longer satisfactory. We could, I think, have taken earlier action to bring ourselves back into balance, which might have prevented some of the sort of short-term cuts that we're currently now seeing having to be introduced. WHITE Yeah because I mean surely the RNIB is trying to do something about this, indeed it's making cuts which we mentioned in the same interview with Lesley-Ann Alexander which are unpopular cuts like Manor House, cuts like Condover, cuts like the hotels and we've had a lot of listeners - Arthur Foster, Dorothy Ingram, John Stevens, Walter Cosgrove, Maureen Small who are just a few of the people who contacted us. But aren't they actually grasping the nettle by making unpopular cuts? GADBURY They are now but my feeling is that if we'd have perhaps done this a little bit earlier and I think successive directors, finance and I have been trying to persuade the board to do this, had they done this a little bit earlier may be one or two of the cuts which are currently now having to be introduced could perhaps have been avoided. WHITE Because I think it's right to say you're concerned about the broader effect on the RNIB of some of these cuts. GADBURY I think this is something which hasn't yet been properly examined. After all we've now had a string of closures of one form or another and I am a little concerned about the potential impact that may have on fundraising. RNIB needs high profile services in order to encourage donors to give us money and if these are constantly being closed it's possible that it may not be quite such an attractive organisation to give money to. That - I mean that's only just a supposition, there's not been a great deal of research done into this - it is a slight worry of mine. WHITE Is there evidence that fundraising and legacies and things like that are going down? GADBURY Legacies are going down, whether that's - or have been going down, I think they're now on a - have reached a sort of stable plateau - whether that's connected to past closures is of course something which is extraordinarily difficult to answer. WHITE One of the things that we have asked the RNIB, both the present chief executive and indeed her predecessor, Ian Bruce, one of the things I've asked them about a lot is isn't the RNIB going too much into an advisory capacity and moving away from a service ethos - is that something you're concerned about? GADBURY I'm just a simple accountant. It's up to the visually impaired people to say really what services RNIB should provide. What my concern has been is the money available in order to meet those services. And my worry is possibly that constant closure of high profile services may have an impact on that. But I'm certainly not going to criticise in any way whatsoever RNIB's move towards an advisory service, if that's what the visually impaired people and trustees think they should do, well that's what they should do. WHITE You made a point in your statement to us last week about the governance of the RNIB and you seemed to be suggesting that it should be more open, what did you mean? GADBURY Well I can only go back to the issues over my resignation in that you've asked RNIB if they would go into details on why they've asked me to resign and so far they are disinclined to do so. The question of me speaking out to assembly members doesn't seem to have been particularly appreciated. I think there may well be a possibility that RNIB could be a little bit more open than it really is. WHITE But all organisations try to manage information, they could well argue that they would want to give the reasons to the board and the assembly before they gave it to me on In Touch, now aren't those reasonable arguments for them to put up? GADBURY Well the RNIB have had every opportunity to put their case to the assembly members, I merely, from my point of view as treasurer, felt I had an obligation to explain why I thought we'd got to where we are. Now if RNIB don't agree with that they're at perfect liberty to say so. WHITE How do you feel now about what's happened, you've had a few days to reflect on it, what's your feeling? GADBURY I'm very disappointed, as I made clear earlier on, it's been a tremendous privilege for me to have been involved with RNIB over the last six years, it's been absolutely fantastic and I'm sorry to be going under these circumstances. I wish RNIB all the best for the future and I'm sure the present management and the present board is fully aware of what it needs to do and it's determined to do it. I shall be personally sorry not to be part of it. WHITE David Gadbury. We obviously gave the RNIB the opportunity to respond to what David had to say but they declined. And if you still feel a little in the dark over this then join a number of people attending a recent exhibition. Now talk to most sighted people about the dark and there'll almost certainly tell you how difficult they find navigating, even in their own home, when all the lights are off. Well for the next few weeks the Dark is on exhibition itself at the London Science Museum's Dana Centre. The installation involves digital surround sound effects of an 18th Century ghost slave ship - that's what you heard earlier - being played by visitors in a completely darkened room. It's all the idea of the Bafta Award winning team Braunarts and it's written by the blind playwright - Maria Oshodi - and by the sound of things it's certainly making an impression on those going to experience it. ACTUALITY FROM THE DARK EXHIBITION VOX POPS OF VISITORS It was so dark it's not something you generally experience. Even if you're in the house in the dark with the lights turned off you tend to get a bit of street lamplight coming in through the curtains. I suppose it's like being shut in a darkened room without any windows, without any light at all. It was intimidating not to be able to move freely. I wouldn't necessarily say scary, although my heart was racing during parts of it and I think that was a combination of what was happening in terms of the soundtrack and this constant sort of feeling that you're going to bump into somebody. OSHODI The plot's about a 18th Century sailor called Edward Rushton who was a real life figure and it describes how he joins a ship that's sailing to the coast of Guinea where a cargo of slaves are picked up. What I've done is slightly embellished the story with a character called Kunle who is a crew member on the ship as well that was from the West African coast. And on the way back to sell the cargo of slaves it's detected by Kunle and Edward Rushton that there's an epidemic of a disease that's rife amongst the slaves in the hold which is affecting their eyes and causing them to go blind. And as this gets drawn to the captain's attention a decision is made by the captain that involves Kunle and Edward Rushton, which is pretty nasty. ACTUALITY FROM THE DARK EXHIBITION … O'Connor take the healthy back below. Kunle where are you? Kunle where are you? Join Rushton and unlock the diseased one by one and throw back the nettings. Now … BRAUN We were interested in having a blind writer because we thought it would be good to have the story informed by somebody who's used to dealing with mapping spaces. Because what we're standing in is a room which is about ten and a half metres by six and a half metres, which is during the show completely black and what we're interested for the visitors is really encouraging them to map a sense of this ship that exists in the 18th Century so that you really feel that you're on the deck of a ship or you're in the hold of a ship. ACTUALITY FROM THE DARK EXHIBITION VOX POPS OF VISITORS We could really see the creaking deck and the sort of thick ropes of the ship. You were walking quite slowly because it was so dark and at times you did think oh is the floor moving or isn't the floor moving and I'm sure it was the sound effects, the way they were sort of moving around the room made you feel like that. I did get a sense of being trapped underneath deck not being able to see the horizon, as you normally would do on a ship, and a sense of rolling with the waves. ACTUALITY FROM THE DARK EXHIBITION Sentry, open the hatch. I can hear you out there open up. OSHODI Working in performing arts and particularly being really interested in immersive and interactive installation art pieces that give a 360 degree experience because I feel that as a blind person a lot of our culture is really geared towards art work being mediated through spectacle, no matter what it is - whether it's the television or theatre. This is different because it takes away the idea of the spectacle and in doing that it actually gives the - I think it gives the audience a much more intimate relationship with the piece of artwork. BRAUN If we were to generate visuals it probably wouldn't be as interesting or as imaginative as the kind of images that our visitors create in their brain, it's almost semi-hallucinogenic. It's the kind of show that stays with you, so you leave the Dark but your brain is still in there. WHITE That report from the Dana Centre by Mani Djazmi and by the way there is a website, there are details of it on our action line, that number 0800 044 044. A couple of weeks ago on the programme we explained why an American businessman - Michael Osborn - wanted changes in the regulations which cover the carrying of guide dogs on long haul flights. He objected strongly to restrictions which prevented him from keeping his guide dog with him in the cabin on long haul flights into Britain. One of his biggest complaints was that the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association supported these restrictions on the grounds that it would be kinder for the dog to be carried in a special crate in the hold where it could perform its natural functions. Well since that interview the government department responsible for this - DEFRA - that's the Department of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs - has announced an imminent change to the pet travel scheme which will remove the requirement for the dogs to travel in a sealed container. The legislation comes into effect on April 13th - that's next Tuesday - and it'll mean that the likes of the GDBA and airlines involved in carrying animals will be able to choose how they transport assistance dogs in future. Which still leaves the question unanswered - are guide dogs better off in a container in the hold or in the cabin with their owner? It's a question the GDBA has agreed to answer in a couple of weeks time. Meanwhile the RSPCA is still firmly in agreement with Michael Osborn that an assistance dog is better off, whenever possible, staying with its owner. I've been talking to the RSPCA's chief veterinary officer - Steve Cheetham. CHEETHAM I think we would suggest that it is okay for them to travel with their owners. We have plenty of evidence from flights in other parts of the world assembled and the guide dog is perfectly at home at the feet of its owner in the cabin. WHITE You see there's a sort of intuitive feeling that says goodness me, a dog flying for 10, maybe even 15 hours, not being able to go to do its business, not being able to drink - that sounds an awful thing for a dog to have to put up with. CHEETHAM Yes the drinking is not a problem - they can be given fluids - but food restriction for that length of time really isn't a problem to a dog. WHITE Really because I mean those of us who keep dogs - I don't have a guide dog but I know that when my dog goes to sleep at night, sort of eight hours, is sort of about the most you would expect it to go without needing to be let out? CHEETHAM Well I can only quote from the cases that we've been given in evidence. United States to Australia and New Zealand flights have been undertaken without incident. So the evidence is there. WHITE So why do you think that DEFRA and in particular the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association, which has vets, why are they taking this stance do you think? CHEETHAM I think it was probably was started when the pets travel scheme started and they were probably asked what was the maximum length of time a dog could travel in flight and somebody came up with five hours, which obviously doesn't apply to all dogs or assistance dogs or guide dogs. WHITE I mean does it make a difference that they're guide dogs or assistance dogs? CHEETHAM Yes it does. WHITE Why? CHEETHAM They are part of the owner. WHITE But they're still a dog, they still have all the limitations that a dog has. CHEETHAM They do but they are part of the owner's sight or the owner's hearing and I think as such deserve an exemption. WHITE And you think that they would be much happier with the owner than in a crate in the hold, where we understand that they're expected to travel? CHEETHAM Yes dogs do travel in crates, they travel across the world - we've exported them to Australia, New Zealand and they get there alright. But these dogs are special, they're used to being with their owner all the time and like I say they are their eyes or their ears. WHITE Is there any suggestion that they could come to harm in a crate because Michael Osborn clearly thought that there was? CHEETHAM I think in extreme situations, if for instance they were left in a crate in a hold on an airfield near the Equator you could get the same sort of situation we get with dogs in hot cars. We have no figures on losses in the hold of airlines of animals but we do have anecdotal evidence that occasionally it can happen. WHITE How can we get some kind of closure on this? CHEETHAM Well what I would like to see is movement on the guide dogs. I accept that assistance dogs in general are difficult to define but if we could get movement on guide dogs and a trial for the UK airlines then I'm sure after a period of time they would realise that what the rest of the world knows already is that it isn't a problem to fly guide dogs in a cabin. WHITE Steve Cheetham. And that's it for this week but don't forget anything you'd like to tell us or ask us to investigate all you have to do is call our action line on 0800 044 044 or e-mail the website at bbc.co.uk/radio4/intouch. Oh and don't forget part 2 of our series Blind Man's Beauty can be heard next Tuesday morning at 9.30. From me Peter White for tonight, producer Cheryl Gabriel and the team goodbye. Visit the In Touch Message Board Back to the In Touch page The BBC is not responsible for external websites |
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