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BBC Radio 4 In Touch |
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Listen to this programmeFactsheet of this programmeTranscript of this programme Print this page FactsheetCOMPUTING FOR BEGINNERSComputer experts Leonie Watson and David Halliwell – both visually impaired – answer your questions on what to buy, where to get advice on getting yourself set up and address the pros and cons of getting an accessible computer. MORE INFORMATION http://www.jobcentreplus.gov.uk/JCP/Customers/HelpForDisabledPeople/AccesstoWork/ Re ATW assistance with funding for access technology at work http://www.bcab.org.uk/ Re IT for All courses http://www.rnib.org.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/code/InternetHome.hcsp RNIB - advice and support on computing GENERAL CONTACTS RNIB Royal National Institute of the Blind 105 Judd Street London WC1H 9NE Helpline: 0845 766 9999 (UK callers only - Monday to Friday 9am to 5pm) Tel: 0207 388 1266 (switchboard/overseas callers) Web: www.rnib.org.uk The RNIB provides information, support and advice for anyone with a serious sight problem. They not only provide Braille, Talking Books and computer training, but imaginative and practical solutions to everyday challenges. The RNIB campaigns to change society's attitudes, actions and assumptions, so that people with sight problems can enjoy the same rights, freedoms and responsibilities as fully sighted people. They also fund pioneering research into preventing and treating eye disease and promote eye health by running public health awareness campaigns. HENSHAWS SOCIETY FOR BLIND PEOPLE (HSBP) John Derby House 88-92 Talbot Road Old Trafford Manchester M16 0GS Tel: 0161 872 1234 Email: info@hsbp.co.uk Web: www.henshaws.org.uk Henshaws provides a wide range of services for people who have sight difficulties. They aim to enable visually impaired people of all ages to maximise their independence and enjoy a high quality of life. They have centres in: Harrogate, Knaresborough, Liverpool, Llandudno, Manchester, Newcastle upon Tyne, Salford, Southport and Trafford. THE GUIDE DOGS FOR THE BLIND ASSOCIATION (GDBA) Burghfield Common Reading RG7 3YG Tel: 0118 983 5555 Email: guidedogs@guidedogs.org.uk Web: www.guidedogs.org.uk The GDBA’s mission is to provide guide dogs, mobility and other rehabilitation services that meet the needs of blind and partially sighted people. ACTION FOR BLIND PEOPLE 14-16 Verney Road London SE16 3DZ Tel: 0800 915 4666 (info & advice) Tel: 020 7635 4800 (central office) Web: www.afbp.org Registered charity with national cover that provides practical support in the areas of housing, holidays, information, employment and training, cash grants and welfare rights for blind and partially-sighted people. Leaflets and booklets are available. NATIONAL LEAGUE OF THE BLIND AND DISABLED Central Office Swinton House 324 Grays Inn Road London WC1X 8DD Tel: 020 7837 6103 Textphone: 020 7837 6103 National League of the Blind and Disabled is a registered trade union and is involved in all issues regarding the employment of blind and disabled people in the UK. NATIONAL LIBRARY FOR THE BLIND (NLB) Far Cromwell Road Bredbury Stockport SK6 2SG RNIB Customer Services on 0845 762 6843 Email: cservices@rnib.org.uk Web: www.nlb-online.org The NLB is a registered charity which helps visually impaired people throughout the country continue to enjoy the same access to the world of reading as people who are fully sighted. Trustees from the Royal National Institute of the Blind (RNIB) and the National Library for the Blind (NLB) have agreed to merge the library services of both charities as of 1 January 2007, creating the new RNIB National Library Service. EQUALITY AND HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION DISABILITY HELPLINE (England) FREEPOST MID02164 Stratford upon Avon CV37 9BR Tel: 08457 622 633 Textphone: 08457 622 644 Fax: 08457 778 878 Mon, Tue, Thu, Fri 9:00 am-5:00 pm; Wed 8:00 am-8:00 pm. Enquiry: englandhelpline2@equalityhumanrights.com www.equalityhumanrights.com Equality and Human Rights Commission Helpline Wales Freepost RRLR-UEYB-UYZL 1st Floor 3 Callaghan Square Cardiff CF10 5BT 0845 604 8810 - Wales main number 0845 604 8820 - Wales textphone 0845 604 8830 - Wales fax 9:00 am-5:00 pm, Monday to Friday (an out-of-hours service will start running soon) Enquiry: waleshelpline@equalityhumanrights.com www.equalityhumanrights.com Equality and Human Rights Commission Helpline Scotland Freepost RRLL-GYLB-UJTA The Optima Building 58 Robertson Street Glasgow G2 8DU 0845 604 5510 - Scotland Main 0845 604 5520 - Scotland Textphone 0845 604 5530 - Scotland – Fax 9:00 am-5:00 pm, Monday to Friday (an out-of-hours service will start running soon) Enquiry: scotlandhelpline@equalityhumanrights.com www.equalityhumanrights.com DISABLED LIVING FOUNDATION 380-384 Harrow Road London W9 2HU Tel: 0845 130 9177 Web: www.dlf.org.uk The Disabled Living Foundation provide information and advice on disability equipment The BBC is not responsible for external websites General contacts Back to top TranscriptINT Good evening. A question we’re often asked, especially by relatively newly diagnosed visually impaired people is: “Why do you spend so much time on computers on this programme? What use are they to me now?” that is when we’re not being asked why we don’t spend more time on them. So, on Tonight’s Blindness for Beginners, we’re going to make a determined attempt to answer that question and others that some of you have sent us. We’re interpreting the word ‘beginner’ a bit more loosely than usual so it could include people who’ve tried to get to grips and given up, people who are soldiering on but struggling and people who have never even logged on in anger. To help us – two experts in computers: Leone Watson and David Halliewell, both visually impaired themselves, both work for private companies, Leone for Nomensa which builds websites, and David who works for a company on access which has a contract... one of whose contracts is with the BBC, and we have one other vital aid which is my jargon detector. So if I hear a bit of jargon I don’t understand, my jargon detector is ignorance basically, so I shall get you to stop and explain. First, both of you, we’ve already had that question I mentioned, literally from a partially sighted listener: “Why should I get a computer? What am I going to get out of it?” I felt we could perhaps best answer it by asking you both first of all how and why you got involved. Leone?LEONE: I worked in computers before I lost my sight so I have I suppose in some respects a head start. So for me it was a matter of getting back on course with things that I’d known in my previous working life. I don’t know whether that made it easier to learn how to use a computer again with a screen reader or tougher, but when I was first told that I would lose my sight completely my first reaction actually was... well, that’s it! I’m not ever going to be able to use a computer again. Gonna have to find something else to do. And then as I understood that it would be possible, I was slightly puzzled as to what... you know, how do you use the internet, how do you do these things, can you do them? Surely it’s just too difficult, too impossible. But with a certain amount of perseverance you get there and it’s certainly worth doing. INT And you've now ended up in a good job in your own field, as it were. LEONE: Absolutely, back in the same field but now with a focus on accessibility which is much for the greater good. INT Okay, and David, you lost your sight early, I think still as a child. So what was your experience? DAVID I did, I lost my sight first of all when I was ten, and my first into to computers if you like was when I was at ?? New College and people were pressing lots of buttons on old BBC computers, very ancient computers. INT I remember them vaguely. DAVID You had to load in disks and all kinds of strange things, and they type all these things and it would go – beep! And they thought this was brilliant. And then I sort of didn’t have anything to do with computers until I went to university in 1994 and was given a computer with talking software and just basically told: “You're blind, there’s this computer, it’s going to talk to you.” And at the time I had a partner who could see, so we just worked through the instruction manuals basically until I got to a point where I could write my essays for university. INT Okay, so both in a way puzzlement and fear to start with and then gradually developing and in my case, I mean regular long-term listeners to this programme will know me as posing rather annoyingly to people who like computers as a Luddite for years and years, and actually.. and I’ve changed my position completely, influenced mainly by the discovery that I could get books in audio form, in Braille form and in my early to mid 50s suddenly completely changed in my attitude, so it can happen. Let’s address those people who are computer virgins first of all. How can you get started and what kind of equipment do you really need as opposed to what people say you need? David? DAVID I think we need to turn the question around slightly and say what do you want to get out of it? Why do you want to use this computer? Then we can work on the basis of what kind of things we’d need for you to do the job. I think communication is one of the main features and benefits of the computer. You can email which is electronic messaging. People abroad, family abroad, it’s a very quick, very.... reasonably cheap way, I think, to keep in touch regularly with people overseas. Writing documents, whether that be letters to people, or notes for yourself is another good tool that the computer can do for you. So I think if you can identify what you want to do, then that’s a good start. INT And Leone, what equipment do you... are musts, because some people will think well have I got to spend loads of money to do this. LEONE: You can keep it fairly reasonable, certainly in terms of the computer equipment, the more expensive part of the deal is of course the access technology quite often, but a basic computer or a laptop should do the trick in most cases. INT I’m almost tempted to bring in my jargon... because when you say “access technology” what do we mean? LEONE Absolutely , it could be a screen reader that converts what you would otherwise see on a computer screen into electronic speech or to Braille, it could be a screen magnifier that does the same but enlarges the content that’s on your computer screen so you can see it more easily. Any number of software applications that make things a bit easier. INT And so do you have to spend a lot of money to do that? LEONE It can be expensive unfortunately. INT I suppose at this point, before we go any further, we ought to mention, David, perhaps something like access to work, so that if you are working, you are entitled to get help. It’s a bit like to him who hath shall be given and him who hath not – or her – who hath not shall be taken away. Because in a way people who are working are in the best position but they’re the ones who are likely to get the help, aren’t they. DAVID Absolutely , and I think, you know, as you say, the government’s access to work scheme gives grants to individuals in order to allow them to do their work successfully, so to pay for what are considered to be reasonable adjustments in the workplace. INT Now the other thing, of course again, if you're on access to work, training might go with it. But for a lot of people that’s not the case and we’ve had this question from Reg White. REG WHITE “I would like to find out how people get the right training. It’s very easy to buy the equipment but colleges are simply ill-equipped to help.” INT Okay, so where would you go if you're not getting an access to work package which might include someone to come along and sit at your desk or your home if you work at home and training, where could you get training? DAVID I think the first place to look and try is your local blind association, they’ll certainly be able to put you in touch with either organisations that run within themselves, or local colleges, and also they might be in a position to assist with grants to fund the equipment itself. So that’s certainly one avenue I think. INT Leone, how did you... I mean you did have the advantage that you actually knew one end of a computer from the other, but how did you get training? LEONE I didn’t. I spent some time at an RNIB residential house where they introduced me to the idea of computers and screen readers and all those bits of technology, but from there I went home, saved up – for quite a while – bought my screen reader, and I had a computer already, put the two together and spent the next several months trying to figure it all out. INT Of course one of the things we must mention now is what we mentioned on the programme last week, which his the British Computer Association of the blind has now got an IT for all programmes and they’ve got lottery funding to provide courses for people, and that means not necessarily people who are working and those courses are free. So... and we’ve got information about that on the website too. I mean David that must be a big step forward. DAVID It’s a fantastic opportunity. I mean I would put the caveat on it to say that’s assuming their going to teach you the same technology that you have but assuming that they are, it’s brilliant. INT What do you mean by that exactly? DAVID Well we’ve mentioned the word screen readers and Leone’s explained to us what they are. INT (laugh) DAVID She did... She did. INT Yeah. DAVID It’s the way it converts the text that you type in and the text that’s on the computer into a synthetic voice. There are, I suppose, on the market three, maybe four, major screen readers, and they do work broadly similarly but there are some differences so I think it’s important to identify that when you talk to the course people about your requirements, definitely. INT But I mean BCAB of all people would presumably know all about that and it will be a question of saying what you've got, and a lot of people will go along maybe initially without anything at all. DAVID Absolutely . LEONE That’s very much the idea behind IT For All is to introduce technology to people who don’t have them, so it’s a day where you can get some practical experience, try out some tasks like David was mentioning, writing shopping lists, or sending an email. And from there think about which screen reader or which technology would suit you best and then go on to make your purchase. INT One of the things I find when confronting somebody who perhaps knows a bit about computers but.. you know, and looks at our kind of technology we use, is this enormous horror that in a way you can’t really use a mouse. Can we just explain that because for those people who perhaps do have a bit of knowledge and think well... you know, how on earth am I going to do that? Am I going to have a mouse that navigates me around the keyboard? How can you explain to people how that works, David, without that bit of essential kit? DAVID Basically the mouse is a device that you have on the desk that you rest your hand on and it’s got a tail, if you like, which then connects it to the computer and you move your hand around on the mouse and it moves it moves a pointer on the screen, and when you reach a point that you want to highlight, for example you want to open a programme on your computer, you move the mouse to that point and then you click it. Now obviously... INT That’s a very visual process. DAVID That’s a very visual process, and I would imagine for Leone that must have been one of the strangest things to get to grips with, to almost throw the mouse away and use the keyboard instead. LEONE Very much so. DAVID So moving the arrow keys around, because there are four arrow keys on computer keyboards to move you up and down and left and right, and to use those and other key combinations to navigate the computer rather than that mouse, because everybody in my office they go: “Let’s have a look at your computer. Where’s the mouse? What am I going to do?” (laugh) INT Well when I ask for help, that’s what happens, our own technology people, they come up to the office and they say: “Okay, I’m sure I can help you out here. Where’s the mouse? Oh, no mouse? What do you do?” So Leone had did you get around that problem initially, was that difficult? Because I think I was told you.. for a while you sat with a cup of tea in one hand and the mouse in the other. Well a mouse in the other wasn’t much use to you. LEONE: No, there is a sort of a safety kind of valve suppose that for a while I still had a mouse attached and for a while still had a monitor, a computer screen attached to my computer and it took me quite a while to get past the point where I realised I could just stick them in a cupboard and forget about them. It’s a slow process, I won’t deny that. You do just have to teach yourself a different way of approaching something. INT Let’s bring in one of our callers, Colin Skidmore is calling from Bristol, and Colin, you had some questions. So put them in context, what sort of stage are you at? COLIN SKIDMORE Very basic computer ... I’ve got a very basic computer with a screen reader at the moment and I would like to upgrade it but I was wondering what I could do to get impartial advice about the different equipment that’s available for blind and partially sighted computer users. INT So the key word is ‘impartial’ I think there really, isn’t it. Because if Colin goes to a shop they will want to sell him maybe what they want to sell him. Now I think this is a question that you won’t often be asked, Colin. Hello to you by the way. Why do you want to upgrade? COLIN I’m still on doss at the moment so I would like to get onto... INT David you'll have to explain what doss is. DAVID Oh lord above. Doss, okay. Doss is the operating system that the computer runs on. People may be familiar with the term Windows which is the PC operating system that’s now around. Doss is a very old system which required you to do more things yourself. Windows is a lot more automatic, I think. Leone, would that sum it up really do you think? LEONE Yeah. INT (laugh) Good. We have agreement amongst our experts. So your question to Colin’s why ?? ?? DAVID That’s fine. INT Are you implying that he may not need to? DAVID At the risk of being slightly controversial there tends to be in the land of computers always the need to have the latest, the greatest, the best, the 5.1 when 4.9 will do fine. We don’t all need to have the latest thing. INT So Colin, is there a good reason why you'd want to upgrade other than keeping up with the Joneses then Colin? COLIN No, I would like to get onto the internet and I think a more modern... INT Yes. Absolutely . COLIN ... computer would be a lot better. INT Absolutely. So, let’s try and answer his real question then? How can he get some impartial advice other than from you two? LEONE I don’t think it’s worth separating the computer part of the deal from the screen reader part of the deal. I’ve come across a lot of people over the past few years who have gone to screen reader vendor or a company that deals in screen readers and other similar technologies, and have come away with a massively expensive complete package. INT Can I just nail you down about cost. I mean.. you know, to get yourself started, what are we actually talking about here? DAVID Well if you look at the computer bit first, for example a laptop computer which is all the computer you need in one package if you like which can be carried around with you, you can sit it on your lap as opposed to you'll hear the term desktop computer which has a keyboard that’s separate from the screen for all different pieces if you like that you put together. So if we look at a laptop computer, possibly about £350 would get you something that would be quite good and useable I think. INT Right, and then you need to read – Leone? LEONE It depends very much on what access technology you're thinking about – screen magnifiers, screen readers can come in for as little as about sort of £100 mark for a sort of very simplified version. If you're talking about the three market leading screen readers particularly that David mentioned before, you're probably looking at about five or six hundred pounds to buy the basic version. INT So we might be looking at say a grand to get yourself started? DAVID Yeah, I reckon so. INT If you're not very confident about what you want, is it best to take someone who you.... who you trust? And of course if you know someone you trust, can they advise you in the first place? LEONE To be honest, I would always advise, but if you're someone who doesn’t know much about computers, sighted, vision impaired, or otherwise, find someone who you do know and trust and take them with you. That’s just good advice whoever you. DAVID That’s good advice. LEONE So yes, if you do know someone. INT Colin, does that help? COLIN Yes, that’s excellent. INT So find someone that you can trust, at least to be able to monitor the advice you get. COLIN Alright, lovely, thank you very much. INT Thank you. Cos that is... both of you, that is always the problem, isn’t it, who to get advice from, even amongst other blind people because people have their obsessions about their own equipment and they’re pushing the thing that they like and it may not always be.. you know, it may not fit in with what exactly you want to do. It comes back, doesn’t it, to knowing what you want to do with it in the first place. DAVID Absolutely. INT David, just one thing, we tended to concentrate on people whose sight is very bad, but of course there is... can you just very briefly mention there is equipment for people who have some sight. DAVID Of course. INT Magnification. DAVID There are screen magnifiers. We’ve talked about screen readers, as we said, to talk to you effectively. We can now just briefly mention screen magnifiers which basically do what they say on the tin. They make the text larger and up to in some cases 36 times the size it would be normally. These programmes can also change the colours, so they can change the background colour, the colour of the text, and also the colour of the pointer that shows you whereabouts on the screen you are. Some of these packages can also speak as well to give you some guidance if your sight is degenerating and then you can still use the computer that way. INT Right. I realise we’ve only scratched the surface of that subject and it’s something that we might come back to. Indeed if there’s enough demand for it we do a whole programme on it. I just wanted to ask you both one more question, really pros and cons, why you would really feel that this.. what it’s done for you basically? Leone, starting with you. LEONE The cons are that it’s going to take a little bit of time to learn how to use a computer, that’s the same for everybody, it doesn’t matter whether you're using a screen reader, a screen magnifier or good old-fashioned mouse and keyboard and computer screen approach. So be prepared to put in a bit of effort. In return you're going to get out some fantastic things. I mean the internet in particular is just the most glorious expanse of information, of services. There are problems in getting it, some of them, as you said earlier, you can get access to books of all different kinds, formats, you can book tickets, book holidays, do your banking, your grocery shopping, your clothes shopping. You can read newspapers, daily newspapers pretty much instantaneously as they’re published in print. You've just got access to so much stuff that it’s incredible, and probably most importantly you've got access to an awful lot of other people who are visually impaired and using computers, and there’s the best thing. INT So a huge vote of confidence. David, pros and cons? DAVID I’d also... I’d agree with everything that you say there. There is the risk, however, that you do your shopping on line, you do your banking on line, you do your friendships on line. You can’t make your cup of tea on line unfortunately and you may never leave the house. So I’ve seen, unfortunately, some people that do this, and it does lead to them to have a degree of social isolation. So I think it’s great but I would just add that little warning touch to it as well. And of course as you say, the more we rely on it, I mean my computer is sitting up there now waiting for me to go back to work. I can access the internet on it. Everywhere I go I’ve got basically effectively a mobile phone card in my computer, so there’s no excuse. I’m always working. That’s a very much a con. INT (laugh) So that’s a con. There is no escape, a bit like the mobile phone. DAVID Absolutely. INT Well look, thank you very much both of you. I think you have to accept from us that you've got a bunch of converts, even me, I might have been on the other side a few years ago, but this is really intended just to give people an introduction. That’s it for today. I suspect this session may have prompted as many questions as it’s answered, and if it has, we intend to keep David, Leone and other experts on hand - they don’t know this yet but we do – to pick up some of those questions as they arise. So don’t feel that you've missed the boat. You can give your questions either to our action line on 0800 044 044, or you can email us at In Touch. You can also download a podcast from tomorrow. That’s it from me, Peter Wright, my Producer Cheryl Gabriel, our experts – goodbye. Back to top |
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