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BBC Radio 4 In Touch |
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Listen to this programmeFactsheet of this programmeTranscript of this programme Print this page FactsheetIn TouchRadio 4 TX Day and Date Tuesday 130307 TX Time 20:40 - 21:00 Line Identity 0800 044 044 Contributors Honor Anderson, head of specialist advisory services in Hertfordshire Dr Steve McCall, lecturer in education at VICTAR, (Visually Impaired Centre For Teaching And Research at Birmingham University.) Dr Steve McCall Tonight’s programme asks, when is the right time to teach a visually-impaired child Braille? We talk to the mother who believes that Braille teaching should be offered by right. Emmanuele Higgins' seven-year old son Luke has the eye condition of Cone Dystrophy. Emmanuele says that he can still see to read print, but only with the book held close to his face. She wants him to be able to learn Braille now, but says that so far this hasn't been offered to him by his Hertfordshire school. Emmanuelle has therefore started a campaign to make learning Braille a right for all blind children. CONTACTS Emmanuele’s Campaign website: http://braillecampaign.blogspot.com/ Petition for the right to learn Braille: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SaveBraille/ Internet group for parents of VI and blind children: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PVIC/ Group for professionals (QTVI teachers and others): http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/visuallyimpairedchildren/ International Braille Research Centre http://www.braille.org/ Promotes the use of Braille. EMPLOYMENT SCHEMES The government has been saying for some time now that it wants to get as many visually-impaired people into work as possible. No one's going to disagree with the intention - we've been complaining for years about the low numbers of blind people of working-age who seem to be on the work scrapheap, but there has been some scepticism about the many schemes around to get people back to work; the suggestion that they are more cosmetic than effective, and that people just seem to be shunted from one scheme to another. But one man who doesn't share this scepticism is Mark Nelson, who has been part of a work preparation programme in Swansea. He joins us now. RNIB LOGO The programme mentioned a few weeks ago that the Royal National Institute of the Blind were planning some changes, which would include a new logo to project a more positive view of blindness. The new logo has yet to be finalised, but it will be minus the white cane. Amongst the responses the programme generated was a suggestion from Jim Taylor who speaks to the programme about his idea. THEATRE A group of visually-impaired actors is presenting some of the issues and dilemmas facing blind and partially-sighted people, and they want the audience to join in too. There are two performances of an ‘Eye For Um Eye!’ over the next week: at the Oval House Theatre Museum in London, this Friday, and at RNIB headquarters also in London's Judd Street on Wednesday week. We're planning to be at the Friday performance, and we'll have a report on the event. Venue Forum Theatre (for visually impaired and sighted audiences) Friday 16 March 2007 5pm at the Oval House Theatre studio downstairs Free admission 54 Kennington Lane SE11 (5 mins from Oval tube station) The project has been devised by Extant and is funded by Trust For London. Extant Tel: 07956 557 390 www.extant.org.uk To book your place at either of the above performances please contact by email to Extant1@btinternet.com, or phone the mobile number above. Extant is the first performing arts organisation in the UK, Managed by and for visually impaired professional arts practitioners. Oval House www.ovalhouse.com For further information GENERAL CONTACTS RNIB 105 Judd Street London WC1H 9NE Helpline: 0845 766 9999 Tel: 0207 388 1266 (switchboard/overseas callers) Web: www.rnib.org.uk The RNIB provides information, support and advice for anyone with a serious sight problem. They not only provide Braille, Talking Books and computer training, but imaginative and practical solutions to everyday challenges. The RNIB campaigns to change society's attitudes, actions and assumptions, so that people with sight problems can enjoy the same rights, freedoms and responsibilities as fully sighted people. They also fund pioneering research into preventing and treating eye disease and promote eye health by running public health awareness campaigns. HENSHAWS SOCIETY FOR BLIND PEOPLE (HSBP) John Derby House 88-92 Talbot Road Old Trafford Manchester M16 0GS Tel: 0161 872 1234 Email: info@hsbp.co.uk Web: www.henshaws.org.uk Henshaws provides a wide range of services for people who have sight difficulties. They aim to enable visually impaired people of all ages to maximise their independence and enjoy a high quality of life. They have centres in: Harrogate, Knaresborough, Liverpool, Llandudno, Manchester, Newcastle upon Tyne, Salford, Southport and Trafford. THE GUIDE DOGS FOR THE BLIND ASSOCIATION (GDBA) Burghfield Common Reading RG7 3YG Tel: 0118 983 5555 Email: guidedogs@guidedogs.org.uk Web: www.guidedogs.org.uk The GDBA’s mission is to provide guide dogs, mobility and other rehabilitation services that meet the needs of blind and partially sighted people. ACTION FOR BLIND PEOPLE 14-16 Verney Road London SE16 3DZ Tel: 0800 915 4666 (info & advice) Tel: 020 7635 4800 (central office) Web: www.actionforblindpeople.org.uk Registered charity with national cover that provides practical support in the areas of housing, holidays, information, employment and training, cash grants and welfare rights for blind and partially-sighted people. Leaflets and booklets are available. NATIONAL LEAGUE OF THE BLIND AND DISABLED Central Office Swinton House 324 Grays Inn Road London WC1X 8DD Tel: 020 7837 6103 Textphone: 020 7837 6103 National League of the Blind and Disabled is a registered trade union and is involved in all issues regarding the employment of blind and disabled people in the UK. NATIONAL LIBRARY FOR THE BLIND (NLB) Far Cromwell Road Bredbury Stockport SK6 2SG Tel: 0161 355 2000 Textphone: 0161 355 2043 Email: enquiries@nlbuk.org Web: www.nlb-online.org The NLB is a registered charity which helps visually impaired people throughout the country continue to enjoy the same access to the world of reading as people who are fully sighted. DISABILITY RIGHTS COMMISSION (DRC) Freepost MID 02164 Stratford-upon-Avon CV37 9BR Tel: 08457 622 633 Textphone: 08457 622 644 Web: www.drc-gb.org The DRC aims to act as a central source of advice on the rights of disabled people, while helping disabled people secure their rights and eliminate discrimination. It can advise on the operation of the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA). DISABLED LIVING FOUNDATION 380-384 Harrow Road London W9 2HU Tel: 0845 130 9177 Web: www.dlf.org.uk The Disabled Living Foundation provide information and advice on disability equipment The BBC is not responsible for external websites General contacts Back to top TranscriptIN TOUCHTX: 13.03.07 2040-2100 PRESENTER: PETER WHITE PRODUCER: CHERYL GABRIEL White Good Evening. Tonight, when is the right time to teach a visually-impaired child Braille? We talk to the mother who believes that Braille teaching should be offered as of right. And as the RNIB changes its logo we'll have one listener's suggestion for his alternative. Emmanuelle Higgins' seven-year old son Luke has the eye condition of Cone Dystrophy. His mother, Emmanuelle, says that he can still see to read print, but only with the book held very close to his face. She wants him to be able to learn Braille now, but says that so far this hasn't been offered to him by his Hertfordshire school. Emmanuelle has therefore started a campaign to make learning Braille a right for all registered blind children. She joins us on the phone from her home. Emmanuelle, first of all just explain the situation about Luke's reading. Higgins I went to Luke's [indistinct word] teacher's meeting a couple of weeks ago and I found that Luke's doing very, very well at school in science and in maths and I believe that he's struggling to read and write. From the hospital letters his size of print is N36 at normal reading distance. Luke is reading much, much slower than all the other children, he can manage to read a few lines but to me I believe it's not enough. White So he is reading print but you're saying that he's not being able to keep up with the rest of the class? Higgins He is reading large print but I believe because his condition is degenerative and as the print gets smaller and the books get longer he will not be able to catch up, he's being held back. White Is he learning Braille at all at the moment? Higgins No he's not. White And you want him to, although you obviously realise that learning Braille would be initially perhaps quite a slow process before he was reading quickly? Higgins It might be a slow process but I believe that in the long run it will change his life. White And what have the school said to you about this? Higgins Well the school are not the problem, the problem is the advisory team - they're the ones who provide the Braille teachers, they're the ones who provide all the equipment and all the assistance. And their attitude to Braille was very negative, we find that we've had very, very negative response, like saying oh your child will not need Braille until he's lost his sight, he can manage and cope with all the existing technology, with voice activate his computer and audio books and things like that. I've had a very negative response to Braille. White Well the person who is the head of that team is with me - Honor Anderson - who's head of specialist advisory services in Hertfordshire. So first of all, what do you say to Emmanuelle about Luke's learning and what she's just said? Anderson Obviously I'm very concerned that a family, and particularly Mrs Higgins, feels that she's not being supported by the service because that's not what we're in the business to do, we want to work together with parents. And my understanding is that the team of specialist teachers who work with Luke and the school are aware of his eye condition and have agreed that at some point Braille will need to be introduced to Luke and I think the issue in dispute is the appropriate moment. It's my understanding, from the information I've been given, that Luke is making good progress with his literacy through print and learning to read through print. And there is an issue obviously about the timing and the balance of that and we're wanting to get that right. White And what would the issue be as far as the timing is concerned, as far as you're concerned? Anderson Well at the moment he is acquiring literacy which is a skill over and above the skill of learning Braille through print. And it would be as he is successfully learning literacy skills through print it would be at this moment in time an overload - an extra - for him to accommodate. We have not said no we will not be introducing Braille and it isn't a problem to provide that service when it's deemed he's ready. White Let me bring Emmanuelle back on that, I mean what's your reaction - what Honor is saying there is he's doing print, he's obviously having to work quite hard with his print but he's reading it, it would be overloading him then to do Braille simultaneously? Higgins Well I've got a lot of arguments against that. I think that also Luke can read large print and he cannot read anywhere near as fast as the other sighted children, so it's becoming more and more difficult for him to learn and he's starting to hate reading more and more. White And you're presumably - you're worried about the future, I mean what is the prognosis as far as Luke's sight is concerned? Higgins It's degenerative. White And so do you know what is likely to happen as far as his sight is concerned ...? Higgins Well it's definitely going to deteriorate, we're not sure exactly when but it's not - whenever it happens is not the problem, I believe that it's going to become more and more difficult for him to read and write and he's going to - he's starting to lose his confidence already. He comes home and hides his books away because he hates reading so much. White Honor Anderson isn't that a very important point, if Luke is losing his sight and given the one thing we know is that the sooner a child learns to read Braille the better, the quicker, they're likely to be and that correlation does go down very quickly as children get older, isn't that quite a strong argument? Anderson I mean obviously it's a strong argument and as I said we're not ruling out introduction of Braille. There are a slight discrepancy in my information and what Emmanuelle has said, my understanding is that Luke's print access for reading is N24. Higgins Well that is what - what our teacher for visually impaired is giving Luke but from the letters I've got from the hospital they're saying that a normal reading distance Luke can only read N36 print and I believe that Luke is struggling with his reading, I believe that Luke can only read a few pages at the most before it becomes too much for him. And from all the research that I've read in America it is just the most important thing about Braille is to start as early as possible. White Are you to some extent reassured that Honor is saying this is flexible, they will listen, if circumstances are changing that might change their attitude to this? Higgins Well I'm not convinced that it's going to happen unless I've got it all written down and I've got dates because I think - I believe that so far they have been trying to postpone things, they're always finding excuses to postpone ... White I must ask you Honor, is there an issue of resources here? Anderson Absolutely not and I'm really sorry that that's how you feel. And also I have to say I'm very pleased to have the latest medical information that you have shared with us over the air because I do know that we have sought your permission to get that information ... Higgins ... sorry I gave that letter to [indistinct words] visually impaired about Luke's reading [indistinct words] at normal reading distance but that's not even the problem, the problem is the research in America shows how important it is that it's just vital to learn Braille as early as possible to be able to read Braille fast enough, why can Luke not start now, why does he have to wait another five years or three years or whatever? White Right, Honor, let me just get your answer to that and then we'll perhaps bring in our next guest. Anderson Absolutely, he's not - we're not saying he has to wait for the next five or three years. The issue - and can I just say - the issue is not one of resources, we do teach Braille to children as is assessed at their reading it will be introduced, we have qualified teachers who are experienced and already teaching Braille to seven children in the authority, we have specialist LSA curriculum access - it's not funding, which often it is. Higgins I've got an argument against that, I read on the internet an e-mail from one of your teachers for visually impaired asking for help and support from the whole country, saying that she did not have the time or resources and she did not know how to teach Braille to a child with remaining vision. White Emmanuelle, we're clearly not going to solve the whole of your problem on air, I hope what we have done - I hope what we have done is move things on perhaps a little and got you and Honor talking to each other. Anderson Would it be helpful for me to say that what has been arranged because obviously we do understand there's a distress with the family and we don't want to cause any further distress, it's already been planned that touch typing will be introduced with Luke after the SATs exams in May and also we have agreed that we would introduce and monitor grade 1 Braille after the SATs in May when the curriculum is a little bit lighter and see how that has an impact on his overall learning as well. So we're not, not listening, we want to try and work with you and we don't have any vested interest in denying Luke progress and access. White Emmanuelle, is that any comfort to you? Higgins Well it will be when it actually does happen because I won't actually believe it till it does happen, until I've got it all in writing. White Okay, well we will keep an eye on this for you as a programme. Also joining us from the West Midlands is Dr Steve McCall, who's lecturer in education at VICTAR, which is the visually impaired centre for teaching and research at Birmingham University. What's your reaction to this and what does this tell us about the state of Braille teaching for children? McCall I've been listening very carefully to the conversation and it does highlight how difficult these decisions can be for both parents and for teachers. There are a range of different factors that need to be taken into account when deciding on whether a child is going to use Braille or print as their main medium and there are a number of factors that people would want to address I think. White Perhaps moving away from the individual case and talking more in general principles, what is the issue when a child can read print, may be losing sight in the future and needs at some point to read Braille, how do you resolve that? McCall How do you decide. White Yes. McCall I think each case is different. If it was me and I was in a position where I was advising on whether print or Braille or perhaps both options would be best for a child I'd want to have a lot of information about the child's vision - I'd need to know what the child's eye condition was, how much vision the child has, how well the child uses that vision and also I think the prognosis, as we've been saying, is a very important issue as well. If the child's vision is deteriorating I'd want to know how quickly that vision was deteriorating. White I see, well I can remember when I was at school almost the reverse situation, where there were children who were reading and were being encouraged to stop reading print and learn Braille and I can remember that happening, has there been a shift of emphasis? McCall I think there has in recent years and perhaps for the last 30 years there's been more of an emphasis on encouraging children who have useful vision to make the best possible use of it. I suppose when you were at school you may also remember that there were children who were taught Braille who actually had sufficient vision to be able to read print ... White I do, I remember I had friends who were doing it and got very upset because they were almost stopped from reading print and there seemed to be fears about whether that would cause eye strain and all that sort of thing. So you know there's this fear that things go in fashions. McCall Absolutely and I think what it shows us is that having a hard and fast rule one way or the other is probably a mistake and that all of these cases need to be considered individually. Another factor that needs to be taken into account is what stage the child is in their literacy development. White Can I just ask you one more point: I think maybe at the back of Emmanuelle's mind and in some people's mind, fears are being expressed that the teaching of Braille is under threat, that it's being seen as a last rather than as a first resort and as Emmanuelle said, you know the idea that perhaps speech technology and so forth are making it less relevant, is that true and is it a justifiable argument? McCall Well if I take your last point first, which is the argument about technology rendering Braille redundant. I heard that said but I have to say that the people who I've heard say it tend to be people who don't know anything about Braille. Technology now affords us greater opportunity and greater access to Braille than people have ever had in the past. And I'm sure you have a Braille computer Peter ... White I'm using one now. McCall You're using one now. And probably you could easily attach it to a Braille embosser, you can attach your computer to a Braille embosser and instead of having a print output you can have a Braille output. So I think the opportunities for access have never been greater, so it's become even more important than it has been in the past for children who need Braille to be given good Braille instruction and regular Braille instruction from an early age. White And can I just put that point finally to Honor Anderson. Is there any sense that Braille is beginning to be seen as a poor relation, partly because of the relatively small numbers of people who do use it, but is that a feeling? Anderson Absolutely not and it's certainly not an aspect of the provision in our service. In fact just recently we have, because of the very specialist skill in learning and teaching and developing Braille resources, we have appointed a permanent communication access specialist as a learning support assistant rather than employ them - somebody around an individual child who when they move on you lose that expertise, we're very lucky to have an excellent support framework and all our teachers of the visually impaired are experienced at teaching Braille and we would never hesitate - and again I reiterate not only is the staffing available, the money's up front, it's free and we also have - any specialist equipment is purchased for the child. White We will have to leave it there, I fancy we've not heard the last of this. Honor Anderson, Dr Steve McCall and before that Emmanuelle Higgins, thank you all very much indeed. Now we mentioned a few weeks ago that the Royal National Institute of the Blind was planning some changes which would include a new logo to project a more positive image of blindness. Well the logo they've opted for is a green lozenge with the letters RNIB boldly emblazoned upon it and a strap line underneath which says Supporting Blind and Partially Sighted People. The most obvious omission being the traditional white cane. Well we were expecting a response from you and we've got it, from Jim Taylor who joins me on the phone from his home in Manchester. Now Jim I think you've got a suggestion of your own. Taylor Yes I have Peter. I had thought if it were possible of having a gentleman and lady, a boy and girl, each carrying a symbol cane and on their backs having one of these GPS satellites with the words From Folkstone to Florida, from Poole to Pretoria, from Stockport to Stalingrad or whatever. And underneath the logo Through the RNIB the impossible is made possible. White And the message you're hoping to convey presumably is that blindness is no stumbling block basically? Taylor Yes precisely. And I'm also marrying tradition with modernity. White Well you've got tradition and modernity, in the sense that you've got the canes and you've got the GPS system on the back. What about the guide dog - where's the guide dog going to come into all this or don't you want it to? Taylor Well I'm not really bothered about the guide dog no I'm afraid. White So your mobility choices would be cane or some kind of sat nav system? Taylor Absolutely yes. White I mean do you think there is an issue about the way in which blindness is seen, I mean is this message that you're trying to get across - because of course what organisations will still say is we've still got to raise money, we've still got to suggest that things are really quite difficult, is that going to be a money raiser do you think when we're saying how competent we all are? Taylor I think it probably would be but I think the RNIB should really stick to what they're doing best and that is providing services rather than campaigning and changing things for the sake of change. White Right, well of course it's a bit late now for the RNIB, I think they've made up their mind about their logo, so what would you like to do with yours? Taylor Well I mean I'd like it to be the basis perhaps for an In Touch logo. White Right, well we've never had a logo. Taylor Well that's a thought, you know if you have the paper from your office addressed you know and whatever, and e-mail. White Well I think what we'll do is we'll treat it as a flier as it were and we'll see how it goes. Taylor That's very good. White Alright. Jim thank you very much indeed. Taylor A pleasure. White So we will welcome suggestions for an In Touch logo if you feel so inclined. Details of how to get in touch with us in a moment. Finally a theatrical event with a difference in which the audience is invited to participate. A group of visually impaired actors is presenting some of the issues and dilemmas facing blind and partially sighted people, who knows they might discuss a logo, and they want the audience to join in too. There are two performances over the next week at the Oval House Theatre Museum in South London, that's this Friday evening and at the RNIB headquarters, also in London, in Judd Street, on Wednesday week. We're planning to be at the Friday performance and we'll have a report on what transpires later on. Details about how you can book from our action line on 0800 044 044 and as always we welcome your ideas, your suggestions, your queries on that number or you can e-mail us here at intouch@bbc.co.uk. And in particular we're planning another in our occasional series Blindness for Beginners. That's where we recognise that though some of us are pretty old hands at this there are always people facing the issues thrown up by the loss of sight for the very first time. So if there's a particular area you'd like us to explore, anything from getting around your environment to solving the problems of reading for example, whatever it is, let us know and we'll try to assemble the experts to deal with your query. That's it for today, from me Peter White, from my producer - a returning and welcome - Cheryl Gabriel and the rest of the team, goodbye. Back to top |
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