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BBC Radio 4 In Touch |
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Listen to this programmeFactsheet of this programmeTranscript of this programme Print this page FactsheetIn TouchRadio 4 TX Day and Date Tuesday 060207 TX Time 20:40 - 21:00 Line Identity 0800 044 044 Presenter: Peter White Producer: Ian Macrae PROGRAMME ADDRESS IN TOUCH BBC Radio 4 Room 6084 Broadcasting House London W1A 1AA Email: intouch@bbc.co.uk Web: www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/intouch.shtml FACTSHEET Please take the caller’s name and address and ask whether they require the factsheet in normal print, large print or Braille and enter details in Q. CONTENTS A CHILD’S LIFE GUIDE DOGS AND SUPERMARKETS GENERAL CONTACTS A CHILD’S LIFE In Touch discusses what are the responsibilities of TV film-makers when they portray under-represented groups on the screen such as blind people? We ask whether a programme which sought to highlight the problems of vulnerable children might have caused collateral damage to the visually impaired in the process. The programme was on last night on Channel Four and was the second part in the series "A Child's Life". In Touch discusses the issues raised with the programmes producer Jane Treays herself, and with Claire and Voldi Galens, a blind couple from Essex who've raised two daughters. One issue in that programme was the lack of domestic support blind people get. We'll be looking at the state of rehabilitation services in Britain. GUIDE DOGS AND SUPERMARKETS Guest: Tom Paye, director of policy and development for the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association The programme had quite a lot of feedback from last week, in particular the issues of guide dog owners still not being allowed to take their dogs into shops. Guide Dogs for the Blind is about to take the lead on a nationwide consultation on the provision of rehab services for visually impaired people, CONTACTS The Guide Dogs For The Blind Association (GDBA) Burghfield Common Reading RG7 3YG Tel: 0118 983 5555 Email: guidedogs@guidedogs.org.uk Web: www.guidedogs.org.uk The GDBA’s mission is to provide guide dogs, mobility and other rehabilitation services that meet the needs of blind and partially sighted people. GENERAL CONTACTS RNIB 105 Judd Street London WC1H 9NE Helpline: 0845 766 9999 (UK callers only - Monday to Friday 9am to 5pm) Tel: 0207 388 1266 (switchboard/overseas callers) Web: www.rnib.org.uk The RNIB provides information, support and advice for anyone with a serious sight problem. They not only provide Braille, Talking Books and computer training, but imaginative and practical solutions to everyday challenges. The RNIB campaigns to change society's attitudes, actions and assumptions, so that people with sight problems can enjoy the same rights, freedoms and responsibilities as fully sighted people. They also fund pioneering research into preventing and treating eye disease and promote eye health by running public health awareness campaigns. HENSHAWS SOCIETY FOR BLIND PEOPLE (HSBP) John Derby House 88-92 Talbot Road Old Trafford Manchester M16 0GS Tel: 0161 872 1234 Email: info@hsbp.co.uk Web: www.henshaws.org.uk Henshaws provides a wide range of services for people who have sight difficulties. They aim to enable visually impaired people of all ages to maximise their independence and enjoy a high quality of life. They have centres in: Harrogate, Knaresborough, Liverpool, Llandudno, Manchester, Newcastle upon Tyne, Salford, Southport and Trafford. THE GUIDE DOGS FOR THE BLIND ASSOCIATION (GDBA) Burghfield Common Reading RG7 3YG Tel: 0118 983 5555 Email: guidedogs@guidedogs.org.uk Web: www.guidedogs.org.uk The GDBA’s mission is to provide guide dogs, mobility and other rehabilitation services that meet the needs of blind and partially sighted people. ACTION FOR BLIND PEOPLE 14-16 Verney Road London SE16 3DZ Tel: 0800 915 4666 (info & advice) Tel: 020 7635 4800 (central office) Web: www.afbp.org Registered charity with national cover that provides practical support in the areas of housing, holidays, information, employment and training, cash grants and welfare rights for blind and partially-sighted people. Leaflets and booklets are available. NATIONAL LEAGUE OF THE BLIND AND DISABLED Central Office Swinton House 324 Grays Inn Road London WC1X 8DD Tel: 020 7837 6103 Textphone: 020 7837 6103 National League of the Blind and Disabled is a registered trade union and is involved in all issues regarding the employment of blind and disabled people in the UK. NATIONAL LIBRARY FOR THE BLIND (NLB) Far Cromwell Road Bredbury Stockport SK6 2SG Tel: 0161 406 2525 Textphone: 0161 355 2043 Email: enquiries@nlbuk.org Web: www.nlb-online.org The NLB is a registered charity which helps visually impaired people throughout the country continue to enjoy the same access to the world of reading as people who are fully sighted. DISABILITY RIGHTS COMMISSION (DRC) Freepost MID 02164 Stratford-upon-Avon CV37 9BR Tel: 08457 622 633 Textphone: 08457 622 644 Web: www.drc-gb.org The DRC aims to act as a central source of advice on the rights of disabled people, while helping disabled people secure their rights and eliminate discrimination. It can advise on the operation of the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA). DISABLED LIVING FOUNDATION 380-384 Harrow Road London W9 2HU Tel: 0845 130 9177 Web: www.dlf.org.uk The Disabled Living Foundation provide information and advice on disability equipment. The BBC is not responsible for external websites General contacts Back to top TranscriptIN TOUCHTX: 06.02.07 2040-2100 PRESENTER: PETER WHITE PRODUCER: IAN MACRAE White Good Evening. Tonight; what are the responsibilities of TV film-makers when they portray under-represented groups on the screen such as blind people? We ask whether a programme which sought to represent the problems of vulnerable children might have caused collateral damage to us in the process. And one issue in the programme was the lack of support services blind people get. We'll be looking at the state of rehab services in Britain. Now it's unusual for us to get unsolicited emails not directly related to In Touch from irate visually impaired people expressing more or less unanimous outrage. But that's what's happened following the broadcast last night on Channel 4 of the second part in the series "A Child's Life". Emails I was outraged watching the young carers' programme on Channel 4 last night. I'm a blind single mum who's bringing up my four-year-old daughter on my own. I feel angry that these parents clearly had other disabilities that were not mentioned and the programme made it sound like the problems were all down to their blindness when they clearly weren't. And I feel that this type of programme will only make the general public's perceptions of what blind people can do even worse. As visually impaired people my wife and I were appalled by the portrayal of the couple with visual impairments. They were perhaps emotionally damaged, they were arguably lazy but to suggest that their dependence on their older children had anything to do with their sight is an absolute travesty, which will probably damage perceptions of the rest of us. What a terrible slant on blind parents. The issue was that the parents had learning difficulties, not that they were blind, but this was never mentioned. I'm sure that most non-blind people will come aware from the documentary thinking that blind people cannot be good parents because the family covered last night was so dreadful. The fact is that they would have been bad parents - blind or not. My husband and I are both blind and have three children. Many of the issues raised in that programme are nothing to do with blindness. What a terrible slant on blindness as a parent this programme was. I'm sad to think that many members of the public will think that this is the norm for families where both parents are blind - they couldn't be more wrong. White Now the film concentrated on disabled parents and their children. One set of parents, on whom the film concentrated most, are visually impaired, and have not one, not two, but six children. The programme was produced by Jane Treays, and it focussed on the two oldest children, Louise aged twelve and Jenny nine. They quotes "cared for" their younger siblings because, according to the programme, their parents either couldn't or chose not to. Well to look at some of the issues the programme raises we're joined by Jane Treays herself, and by Claire and Voldi Galens, who are a blind couple from Essex who've raised two daughters. Jane Treays, first of all obviously we'll come on to some of that criticism but I mean why did you make the programme? Treays Well the programme was made about children, about child carers of whom there are at least 175,000 in the country, some say as many as half a million who are caring for their disabled parents and as a result of that perhaps brothers and sisters as well across the country. And it was really a programme looking at the stresses and strains that they face for whatever disability their parents might have and how they cope with them. White But of course what people will have seen, certainly what blind people watching that, as you heard that reaction, what they saw were a blind couple who were clearly having a lot of problems coping but portrayed in many ways as archetypal, that's the problem isn't it when you put a minority group on television who aren't often seen that people take it as definitive? Treays I don't see that they were portrayed as archetypal, I'm surprised at that, they were portrayed as the family that they were, every family's unique. The blindness was mentioned as an explanation as to why they needed help, it wasn't the most important element of the film - they could have been deaf, they could have been disabled in another way. Incidentally Paul and Amanda chose to be called "blind and disabled" - that was their description of themselves. They saw the film twice before it went out and they were happy with it, they felt it was very fair. White As I say Claire and Voldi Galens are with us. Claire, what did you make of the film, what impression did it make on you? Claire Galens To me the help that was needed by this couple didn't relate to their blindness at all, it related to the fact that they appeared to us to have mild learning disabilities. And the fact that they were happy I'm afraid - this is going to sound - I don't mean it to sound in the least patronising towards them - but they are perhaps not best placed to judge the light in which the programme shed them. White I mean is it your concern that this has an effect on say how you will be seen as a parent or how other blind parents, perhaps whose children are younger than yours might be seen? Claire Galens Well unfortunately so because of the way Jane's parts of the film were scripted, she said several times because they are blind they can't cook, because they're blind - obviously because they're blind they can't drive - I wouldn't argue with that - but because they're blind their disabilities - sorry not because they're blind in this case - their disabilities mean that they can't work. White Jane, I mean did it occur to you that in portraying what you saw as one problem you might create another problem for a very specific group of disabled people? Treays I'm very - I try and be as respectful of that as possible and clearly many of your listeners will probably think that I've failed or disregarded the issues and I'm genuinely sorry about that. I think what we should do though actually is see the larger picture and look at the point of view - it was about children - sighted children - doing their best, struggling to cope with the responsibility, perhaps being asked too much of by society in general to deal with them. That's what I think we should be debating, not whether or not I described the parents as blind two or three times, I think, with great respect, that's missing the point. Voldi Galens I'm afraid whether you like it or not other people will see it as a typical blind couple. Blindness was mentioned - other disabilities weren't mentioned specifically - and as I say people do make these judgements, I've come across it in all my years of being around that people make judgements, they meet a blind person and they say oh yes they're like this and they will judge it. And I think any programme maker has a great responsibility to make sure that they don't misrepresent a group and in this case that misrepresentation was quite evident. White If we can address this a bit more. I mean the point which was made over and over again was that Louise had to do a lot of things because her parents were blind, they didn't work because they were blind, it was said they didn't change nappies because they were blind and the truth is that wasn't their primary problem was it - they weren't coping, they had too little support. Do you think that in maybe trying to help overstretched children you might have done a disservice to perfectly competent blind people, reinforcing an image which people do have? Treays First of all I'd like to say that I didn't say they couldn't change nappies, we see Amanda changing a nappy in the film, we see Amanda making bottles. I didn't say that they couldn't change nappies and we don't see that ... White But we also see the children staying in dirty nappies until Louise comes home - the implication ... Voldi Galens That was said in the programme. White The implication being that ... Treays Well I'm afraid that's what happens. White And that's really the point we're making - people will think that that's the way blind people bring up their children ... Treays I don't think so, I think ... White This is the way ... Treays I don't see how you can say that, I think they will - that - I'm really sorry if people lose sight of the debate. I think that is what happens when children are relied upon day in and day out to do jobs that are quicker and easier than their parents can manage and it is about the family as well as being about the issue of child carers. Claire Galens But if I could say something about the way that we tried to be with ours. We obviously asked them for help - there are difficulties that come up that we had to address, even before they were old enough to help us, like keeping them safe while we were out with them and things like that. But as time went on there are things that it makes sense to ask them to help with, such as identifying things that need - what letter is which and in some cases reading things to us if they weren't too complicated. But we always tried to do, even if it did take a little bit longer, what we could do and ask them to do the things that we couldn't do, there was no sense of that and I'm afraid that's the sort of thing that people will take as being the way blind people carry on. Well almost anything it would be easier to ask somebody with a perfectly good functioning pair of eyes to do because they would do it more quickly but... Treays I think also - I mean let's talk about the number of children they have - they have six children and a seventh on the way, you had two, I have two children, if I had six it would be more difficult. I mean I think they also - they were very determined - I think this is an interesting issue - they were very determined to have a large family because they wanted to prove that disabled people could cope - that was really another issue ... White But the whole film is about how they don't cope, I just wonder whether you think that maybe you had some responsibility in that film to balance what you'd said about one couple, who had complex problems, with the information that actually there are a lot of blind people who brought up children perfectly adequately - no one will take that from that film will they? Treays No but I made a film last year about a deafblind mother with two children who was coping beautifully, so I do feel ... White But people who watched that programme last night won't have seen the balance of that, they'll just have seen that one, in some ways rather distressing, film as their picture now of how blind people bring up their children. Treays I'm just perplexed that you say that, I don't think that's ... Voldi Galens Because you haven't lived as a blind person Jane, you don't know what it's like. Treays I think there's - what strikes me as missing in this debate is a lack of compassion for the children and that the blind - the comments from - I presume from your listeners who were blind - which I'm really interested in hearing and will take on board and deal with I hope as best I can - but where is the compassion for the children, that was what the programme was about, it wasn't about blind parents, it was about children who are carers. Claire Galens Yeah I entirely understand that and that was the saddest thing of all about the film - who could have failed to have been moved by Jenny wanting to kill herself, it was dreadful. But the issues that are to you, Jane, side issues are too complex to be treated as side issues because they are so sensitive. I'm afraid I think that the couple on the film were exploited because not due to their blindness but due to their learning disability they were not equipped to realise how they would come across from the film. White Let me give Jane a final answer on that point because that is obviously very key if you say that about a filmmaker. Jane, I mean did you lead those people to say some of the things that they said, which is how Claire clearly thinks it looked? Treays I didn't lead anyone at all, I think if you look at the questions they're very straight and they're very - they're very simple questions. We have had - let me just say - you included a lot of emails at the front of this item, very heartfelt, very strongly expressed and I have also had an enormous number of emails, I mean thousands today, saying thank goodness somebody has highlighted the way we in society allow children to care for their disabled parents and other brothers and sisters. White If it's the case Jane that the film was about the lack of support for people in society and the fact that people need more help why did we see nobody from social services, why did we see nobody from the government, why did we see nobody who could actually have an influence on that situation? Treays Well it's a film about children and so it's done from the children - it witnesses and observes, all three films in the series, witness and observe children's lives from within the home, it's not a current affairs programme, it's a documentary told through the voices and experiences of the people immediately involved. And we mentioned young carers but it's about Jenny and Louise and it's about Ryan. White But it is about lack of support isn't it ... Treays Well yes and twice we mentioned - well interestingly enough in the case of Amanda and Paul they've turned down all offers from social services bar cleaning, as we made clear, they very much wanted to stand on their own two feet, they didn't want to depend on other people, they wanted to keep the care issues within the family which actually is a. it's worth debating that but it's laudable that that's what their aspiration was. I think for them the difficulty came - they started out with those aspirations - and the difficulty has come with their family expanding. White Can I just finally ask you Jane, having heard the strength of concern about it from blind people, has that led you to ask any questions about the way in which that film was made? Treays I think my job as a filmmaker is to do my best to witness and to take on board comments afterwards and to learn to be a better filmmaker with every single film I've made. And of course I will listen to the points and I will take them on board but I do feel that we should all try and do is just be compassionate towards the children and perhaps lobby for their support, rather than just take on board issues about the disability. White You don't think it would have been possible to have done both? Treays I know you don't think I did both. White Jane Treays, Voldi and Claire Galens, thank you very much indeed. Clearly not a meeting of minds there. We'd very much like your reactions to that and if you haven't seen the programme there is another chance to - it's repeated early on Friday morning - 3.20 to be precise - so it's probably a question of setting your recording equipment. The action line number 0800 044 044. * NB. To catch up with the latest on this story and to hear more about the views of the RNIB, Channel 4 and the programme's producer, go to the transcript for Tuesday the 20th of February. It is true that support services for blind people have for many years been considered inadequate. A social services inspectorate report, as long ago as 1988, said as much and another one 10 years later said little had improved. Well now the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association has decided to return to the issue, taking the lead in a national consultation. Tom Pey is their director of policy development and he told me what they were planning. Pey We have carried out our own research this time and oddly enough we have gone to blind and partially sighted people to find out what is wrong. White Didn't that happen before? Pey Unfortunately not. We have concentrated on the views of blind and partially sighted people and perhaps if I can give you some of the headlines which really say that nothing has changed, if anything things have got worse. Twenty per cent of blind people do not go out on their own because they haven't received training to do it. Even though 80% of people have received an assessment only 40% have received good service as a result of it. Because of the research that we have done have found that at the point when a blind person finds out that he or she has got a condition which is going to lead to blindness, something happens which is a recognised medical fact that causes the trauma and that trauma lasts longer with blind and partially sighted people than it does with people who have other disabilities but that trauma has never been treated. We are now calling on the NHS to introduce what we euphemistically call "the extra step" and that is let's deal with the problem before we hand the individual over to the rehabilitation specialists because unless the person is ready and willing and able to learn then they are not going to do it. White Nonetheless of course ... Pey Unfortunately that's why we find that even the services that are provided have been less effective than they could have been. White Nonetheless to have good rehabilitation you have to have enough trained rehabilitation officers that the guide dogs themselves withdrew from the business of training rehabilitation officers for blind people some time ago, I mean that's hardly an advert for your commitment to solving this problem is it? Pey We have now gone to the university sector and we're about to announce a number of courses which will come on stream from September of this year and September of next year which will begin to replenish the supply of rehabilitation workers. White So how can people contribute to this - this research that you're doing? Pey You go to the guide dogs website - www.guidedogs.org.uk/rehabproject - you will see the suggestions that are being made, please there is also a consultation document - consultation questionnaire - please fill it in electronically or if you want it in any other medium just ring guide dogs, ask for the policy department, and we will send it out in any format that suits you. White Tom Pey, thank you very much indeed. So that's it for today, if there's anything at all you'd like to give your views on we'd like to hear from you and I rather suspect there might be - 0800 044 044 is our action line or you can email us. From me Peter White, my producer Ian Macrae and the rest of the team goodbye. Back to top |
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