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BBC Radio 4 In Touch |
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Listen to this programmeFactsheet of this programmeTranscript of this programme Print this page FactsheetIn TouchRadio 4 TX Day and Date Tuesday 230107 TX Time 20:40 - 21:00 Line Identity 0800 044 044 Presenter: Peter White Producer: Ian Macrae PROGRAMME ADDRESS IN TOUCH BBC Radio 4 Room 6084 Broadcasting House London W1A 1AA Email: intouch@bbc.co.uk Web: www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/intouch.shtml PROGRAMME INFORMATION RYANAIR Guests: Simon Calder, Travel Editor of the Independent; Michael Toussaint, Ryanair passenger The programme talk to Michael Toussaint who was forced to leave a Ryanair flight after the airline claim they became suspicious that he may have been a security threat. CONTACTS RYANAIR www.ryanair.com AIR TRANSPORT USERS COUNCIL Room K705 CAA House 45-59 Kingsway London WC2B 6TE Tel. 020 7240 6061 (Consumer advice line Mon to Thurs 9.30am to 2.30pm) Information on passenger rights. http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?categoryid=306&pagetype=68&groupid=355 INTERNATIONAL AIR TRANSPORT ASSOCIATION (IATA) Central House Lampton Road Hounslow TW3 1HY Web: www.iata.org The IATA is the trade association of the world's international airline industry. CIVIL AVIATION AUTHORITY (CAA) CAA House 45-59 Kingsway London WC2B 6TE Tel: 020 7379 7311 Web: www.caa.co.uk The CAA is the UK's specialist aviation regulator. Its specific responsibilities include: Air Safety, Economic Regulation, Airspace Regulation, Consumer Protection and Environmental Research & Consultancy. FREEBIES The programme report that In Touch listeners have voted the 195 directory enquiry service as the most valued free service received because of blindness. BT FREE DIRECTORY ENQUIRIES Tel: 195 Textphone: 0800 7311 888 Web: www.bt.com MEDICAL STAFF Guest: David Cotterell, consultant at the Royal Victoria Infirmary in Newcastle, and Chairman of the Education Committee of the Royal College of Ophthalmologists In Touch reporter Mani Djazmi talks about the poor experience he had when visiting hospital in terms of staff perception of his requirements. CONTACTS NHS Complaints England Patient Advice and Liaison Services Although PALS staff will not be able to take up a formal complaint on your behalf, they can give general advice on complaints procedures and may be able to help you resolve a less serious complaint by informal negotiation. If you are still dissatisfied, you may then wish to make a formal complaint using the NHS complaints procedure. You can contact them by: Phoning your local hospital, clinic, doctors' surgery or health centre and asking for details of the local PALS; Phoning NHS Direct on 0845 46 47 Independent Complaints Advocacy Service If you live in England, you can find out how to complain about the NHS from the Independent Complaints Advocacy Service (ICAS). You can contact your nearest office on one of the numbers below. Tel: 0132 364 3820 Tel: 0162 852 8079 You can also contact your local Citizens Advice Bureau. NHS Complaints Wales Community Health Councils For independent advice on complaining about the NHS in Wales, you can contact your local Community Health Council. Visit www.wales.nhs.uk/chc or www.patienthelp.wales.nhs.uk. You can also call 0845 644 7814 You can also contact your local Citizens Advice Bureau. NHS Complaints Scotland Health Rights Information Scotland Scottish Consumer Council Royal Exchange Square 100 Queen St Galsgow G1 3DN Tel: 0141 226 5261 Open 9 to 5 Fax 0141 221 0731 Email: hris@scotconsumer.org.uk www.scotconsumer.org.uk/hris/index.htm Produce a leaflet on how to make a complaint about the NHS. The leaflet should be available in GP surgeries, dental surgeries, hospitals, and other places providing NHS care in Scotland. There is also information on their website about making a complaint. You can also contact your local Citizens Advice Bureau. NHS Complaints Northern Ireland Northern Health and Social Services Council 8 Broadway Avenue Ballymena BT43 7AA Minicom: 028 2565 5777 Freephone: 0800 917 0222 Email: info@nhssc.n-i.nhs.uk www.nhssc.org The NHSSC is an organisation working on your behalf to improve health and social services provision by:
You can also contact your local Citizens Advice Bureau. REGIONAL NHS OMBUDSMAN’S HEALTH SERVICE OMBUDSMAN ENGLAND Millbank Tower Millbank London SW1P 4QP Tel: 0845 015 4033 www.ombudsman.org.uk/hse/ The Health Service Ombudsman investigates complaints about the National Health Service (NHS). Before asking the Ombudsman to look into your complaint, you must first take it up locally with the body you are complaining against. If you are not happy with how your complaint has been dealt with locally, write to the Ombudsman giving all the details. You do not need to employ a lawyer to put your complaint to the Ombudsman. SCOTTISH PUBLIC SERVICES OMBUDSMAN Freepost EH641 Edinburgh EH3 0BR Tel: 0870 011 5378 Text: 0790 049 4372 Fax: 0870 011 5379 Email: enquiries@scottishombudsman.org.uk www.scottishombudsman.org.uk They can consider complaints about: HEALTH SERVICE OMBUDSMAN FOR WALES 5th Floor Capital Tower Greyfriars Road Cardiff CF10 3AG Helpline: 0845 601 0987 www.ombudsman-wales.org The Ombudsman can look into complaints that you have been treated unfairly, or received a bad service through some failure on the part of the body providing it. NORTHERN IRELAND OMBUDSMAN Freepost BEL 1478 Belfast BT1 6BR Tel: 0800 343424 Email: ombudsman@ni-ombudsman.org.uk www.ni-ombudsman.org.uk Deal with complaints from people who believe they have suffered injustice as a result of maladministration by government departments and public bodies in Northern Ireland. GENERAL CONTACTS RNIB 105 Judd Street London WC1H 9NE Helpline: 0845 766 9999 (UK callers only - Monday to Friday 9am to 5pm) Tel: 0207 388 1266 (switchboard/overseas callers) Web: www.rnib.org.uk The RNIB provides information, support and advice for anyone with a serious sight problem. They not only provide Braille, Talking Books and computer training, but imaginative and practical solutions to everyday challenges. The RNIB campaigns to change society's attitudes, actions and assumptions, so that people with sight problems can enjoy the same rights, freedoms and responsibilities as fully sighted people. They also fund pioneering research into preventing and treating eye disease and promote eye health by running public health awareness campaigns. HENSHAWS SOCIETY FOR BLIND PEOPLE (HSBP) John Derby House 88-92 Talbot Road Old Trafford Manchester M16 0GS Tel: 0161 872 1234 Email: info@hsbp.co.uk Web: www.henshaws.org.uk Henshaws provides a wide range of services for people who have sight difficulties. They aim to enable visually impaired people of all ages to maximise their independence and enjoy a high quality of life. They have centres in: Harrogate, Knaresborough, Liverpool, Llandudno, Manchester, Newcastle upon Tyne, Salford, Southport and Trafford. THE GUIDE DOGS FOR THE BLIND ASSOCIATION (GDBA) Burghfield Common Reading RG7 3YG Tel: 0118 983 5555 Email: guidedogs@guidedogs.org.uk Web: www.guidedogs.org.uk The GDBA’s mission is to provide guide dogs, mobility and other rehabilitation services that meet the needs of blind and partially sighted people. ACTION FOR BLIND PEOPLE 14-16 Verney Road London SE16 3DZ Tel: 0800 915 4666 (info & advice) Tel: 020 7635 4800 (central office) Web: www.afbp.org Registered charity with national cover that provides practical support in the areas of housing, holidays, information, employment and training, cash grants and welfare rights for blind and partially-sighted people. Leaflets and booklets are available. NATIONAL LEAGUE OF THE BLIND AND DISABLED Central Office Swinton House 324 Grays Inn Road London WC1X 8DD Tel: 020 7837 6103 Textphone: 020 7837 6103 National League of the Blind and Disabled is a registered trade union and is involved in all issues regarding the employment of blind and disabled people in the UK. NATIONAL LIBRARY FOR THE BLIND (NLB) Far Cromwell Road Bredbury Stockport SK6 2SG Tel: 0161 406 2525 Textphone: 0161 355 2043 Email: enquiries@nlbuk.org Web: www.nlb-online.org The NLB is a registered charity which helps visually impaired people throughout the country continue to enjoy the same access to the world of reading as people who are fully sighted. DISABILITY RIGHTS COMMISSION (DRC) Freepost MID 02164 Stratford-upon-Avon CV37 9BR Tel: 08457 622 633 Textphone: 08457 622 644 Web: www.drc-gb.org The DRC aims to act as a central source of advice on the rights of disabled people, while helping disabled people secure their rights and eliminate discrimination. It can advise on the operation of the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA). DISABLED LIVING FOUNDATION 380-384 Harrow Road London W9 2HU Tel: 0845 130 9177 Web: www.dlf.org.uk The Disabled Living Foundation provide information and advice on disability equipment. The BBC is not responsible for external websites General contacts Back to top TranscriptIN TOUCHTX: 23.01.07 2040-2100 PRESENTER: PETER WHITE PRODUCER: IAN MACRAE White Good evening. How far should security concerns override passengers' rights? As another blind passenger is turfed off a Ryanair plane, we'll try to find out exactly what happened. And why when eye hospitals and visually impaired people collide do things often go wrong: Why are staff in specialist hospitals and departments so bad at dealing with people who have a visual impairment? But we start with the story of Michael Toussaint, and his rather less than happy New Year. Now Michael is a member of a professional steel band - Caribbean Steel International - he plays the pans - and he and his band set off to play what looked like a very attractive late December gig in Sardinia. And so it proved until, that is, they came to try to get back. They wanted to make it to celebrate New Year with their friends and families, and they were boarding a morning flight on New Year's eve to do exactly that, when things began to go wrong. Well Michael Toussaint joins me now along with his friend Bret Holder. Michael, first of all, tell us what happened. Toussaint Well actually we were aboard the Ryanair flight heading for London, of course, and a member of the staff came and asked me my name, I said Michael Toussaint. She said: Are you accustomed with the safety requirements aboard the plane? I said yeah, I do, because I'm a regular traveller, I travel on many different airlines throughout my lifetime, my musical lifetime I should say. And that was about it. I asked one of my colleagues, look I'm an avid Liverpool football supporter, I observe, you know, heard him flicking newspaper pages around and I asked if it was English speaking newspaper, he said no, I said I'm interested in last night's football score - Liverpool against Spurs. I was sitting at the window seat, a mate of mine was at the aisle seat, the middle seat was vacant and a guy from the back, he pointed out to my mate where the football scores were and my mate read out the total premiership scores to me. And 10 minutes after the next thing I knew I was asked to leave the plane. I said: Why? Four other mates were asked to leave the plane as well, which we did, we was not aggressive. White When all this was going on were you given any reason why you'd been asked to leave the plane? Toussaint No reason whatsoever. Holder Up to now we haven't been given a reason. Toussaint No reason. White So you obviously felt, because that's what you were told, that this had to do with the newspaper reading incident? Toussaint That's what we heard about an hour after, a member from airport security ... Holder Yeah she spoke to the pilot and to be honest with you everyone - the police and all - reckon it's because we're black that's why they chucked us off the plane. Toussaint You know this is very, very hard to comprehend. Holder Very embarrassing also. White Well we of course put your case to Ryanair, no one was made available to come on to the programme to discuss it but this was the statement they gave us. Statement This group of five persons, four of whom are sighted, was removed from the flight because of two separate reports that they were behaving suspiciously, both in the terminal and on board the aircraft. Airport security were informed and decided to remove the group and their baggage on security grounds for questioning and further security checks. Once airport security had satisfied themselves that they did not pose a risk to aircraft or passenger safety they could not be re-boarded as the plane had been closed for departure and take off. Mr Toussaint's condition had no bearing on this incident, as four sighted companions were also removed from the flight by airport security. We're joined now by Simon Calder, who's travel editor of the Independent, he's on the line from Mexico in fact. Simon, what do you make of this case? Calder What an appalling situation and I think that this raises some very, very important issues. The first thing to be said of course is that the captain is the commander of the aircraft, whatever he or she says goes, and if there's any concern at all about security then they won't take off until they are satisfied there's no risk attached. And a corollary to that is that in practice no blame is ever attached to whatever decision they make and these difficult days all it seems that anybody in the airline needs to do is say security and that excuses any kind of behaviour. Appalling business, very expensive, very upsetting, very distressing, very embarrassing. White And can I ask you, I mean what does it sound like to you, I appreciate you weren't there but you've heard the story and you know a lot about this business, what would be your estimate of what was going on here? Calder Clearly there are a lot of passengers travelling who are anxious about flying, they're anxious about their fellow passengers with all these scares about terrorism that are around. And sighted travellers who are already in a heightened state of anxiety simply have fixed and wrong ideas about how blind people should behave. White So does that mean that visually impaired people, who as you say are quite often misunderstood, we're used to it, have to be more careful around flights in future? Calder Absolutely not, it's an outrage and it's not just visually impaired people, I mean there were a couple of incidents in October of a flight attendant who ordered a passenger off a flight because she was breast feeding a baby, then a few days later in New Zealand a diabetic passenger collapsed into a diabetic coma because he hadn't been allowed to take his insulin on board. It appears that if you are not just an ordinary - quotes - "normal" passenger then you run the risk that people will misinterpret your needs and your behaviour and I'm afraid it's a matter of educating, first of all, the travelling public but secondly, and especially, the airlines so that this sort of outrageous event doesn't happen again. And I also have to say regrettably that anecdotal evidence suggests that there is a certain amount of racial stereotyping, whether that's conscious or otherwise, and that people with darker skins are more likely to be regarded as security risks, even though there is absolutely no evidence that supports that. White Simon Calder, thank you very much indeed for joining us. Michael Toussaint and Bret Holder thank you, I hope the next time you fly you have a better experience, thanks for coming in. And now to some cheerier news. We asked you last week to nominate your favourite freebies, allocated on account of blindness. Interesting response and a very clear one - way out in front was the free 195 directory enquiries scheme to which registered blind people are entitled. People thought it was a great equaliser, enabling us to access a service which helps both with work and with running your social life, a service often threatened but according to you much prized. I've always thought that one of the strengths of this programme is that many of the issues that we deal with are as close to the presenters' and the reporters' lives as they are to you the listeners and that's because almost all the people who go on air for the programme do have a visual impairment. Well this next item is a classic example. Just before Christmas our regular reporter Mani Djazmi had to go into hospital for an eye operation and he was astonished at what he felt was the extraordinarily poor perception by the staff - doctors, nurses, auxiliaries - of just what being blind involves and what would be an acceptable and appropriate level of dealing with it. Mani, tell us what happened in your case. Djazmi Well there were a number of incidents which really did surprise me, perhaps I was naive I don't know but I expected - I went into a eye unit - I stress the word eye - it's a place where people go for eye operations and therefore full of people who - patients who are visually impaired to varying degrees. And I was really surprised that none of the nurses I met knew how to guide me, I had to stop them mid-ward as they were hauling me across the floor and say no, hang on, let me hold your arm like this, okay, are you ready, let's go and we can walk a bit quicker if you like, I'm not going to break. And there was another time when just before my operation one of the doctors came along and I was sitting there reading, just to pass the time, and he started asking my mum about my date of birth and what I'm allergic to and that kind of thing, which at this stage of the game, in the 21st Century, I think you know most people are becoming aware that to talk about a disabled person to their companion while that person is there is pretty poor stuff. White And when they're in their mid-20s or am I flattering you? Djazmi Absolutely. So I went back to Addenbrookes in Cambridge and I spoke to some of the staff on that eye unit and I began by asking consultant ophthalmologist Cornelius Rene, I asked him how surprised he was when I told him about my experiences. Rene I was not entirely surprised because it's a subject that is really very poorly taught, that is very much an afterthought, in fact ophthalmology or eye surgery is an area that's very poorly taught generally speaking in the medical curriculum. And most ophthalmology training actually happens as a postgraduate thing. To put it into context - most doctors will probably receive one or two weeks of ophthalmology training in the whole of their five year medical school curriculum. So you could imagine in that one or two weeks very little time is actually spent on dealing with visual disability per se. White Now I understand that since you've brought this up one of the doctors actually conducted some kind of survey in the eye department. Djazmi That's right. Anjana Haradas, who's one of the junior doctors, she asked all the staff members, so that's doctors, nurses and the admin staff, how much visual impairment awareness training they've had and quite worryingly only a third of them have had any. She's in quite a good position to talk about how much training prospective ophthalmologists get in terms of VI awareness, this is how much she's received. Haradas Well the short answer would be none I would think. As a medical student I may have had some talks on visual impairment that probably I can't remember, to be fair. I've never really been shown how to communicate or guide someone that's visually impaired and that's for sure. And after becoming a doctor I certainly haven't had any training at all in that field. And when you consider that I've been doing ophthalmology for two years and it just hasn't come about it's a bit embarrassing to reveal that. Djazmi But while it's great that people like Dr Haradas are observant and they do use their common sense, of all things, unfortunately it seems that other hospital staff do not. I spoke with Lynette Gayfer, who's the Low Vision Liaison Officer at Addenbrookes, as well as being a post-operative point of contact for patients, where she can put them in touch with relevant blind organisations, she also makes sure that all visually impaired patients are looked after, wherever they are in the hospital, not just the eye unit, and she says that standards can be pretty poor. Gayfer People walking up to patients and just putting their medication down in front of them and walking away again. Their cups of tea left at the end of the bed. And maybe their meals just left on a tray on the table and they haven't spoken to the person and said to them I've brought your dinner. White So it sounds Mani as if you weren't the only patient to experience this lack of awareness? Djazmi Well I think the most surprising thing, as I say, was the fact that none of the nurses I met knew how to guide me, I mean learning to guide a blind person doesn't take any time at all, does it really. Nevertheless, Annie Roberts who's the ward sister in the eye unit and also in charge of nurse training, told me that visual impairment training is compulsory for all nurses. Roberts They learn how to walk with them, they learn how to guide them around the ward and guide them round the hospital. Also when patients are in bed they must be aware that they might be partially sighted, not be able to see all around them, so they can't see say half the side of them, so you make sure that their trolley is on the right side, their bed table. They have the opportunity to wear glasses which makes them visually impaired and then they have to do certain tasks so that they understand what it's like to actually not be able to see to pick up a cup from a table. Djazmi When I came in for my operation I think I had contact with three or four nurses perhaps and none of them knew how to guide me, I had to show all of them how to guide me, does that surprise you? Roberts It does surprise me actually. You might have had bank nurses that were here who are not eye trained, they're like agency nurses that don't work here on a regular basis. And what we're trying to do with them is when they come on to the ward that they have a short induction of about an hour, it gives them the basics, so that they know how to guide a patient. White So there is training in place for most nurses but what about the doctors, is anything going to be done with them? Djazmi Well I think it's worth reiterating that it's not specific to Addenbrookes, this problem, my experiences could have happened pretty much anywhere I think. But certainly in terms of giving doctors training Cornelius Rene, who is the surgeon we heard from earlier, says that he wants to put into place some regular formal visual impairment awareness training. Rene We're going to introduce half a day of training into the regular post-graduate teaching programme here in Cambridge. Multidisciplinary, I have to stress, training programme where all the other bodies involved in providing support for visually impaired people could actually be involved. I'm hoping this will be at least an annual half day teaching programme, possibly we could do it biannually because there is such a rapid turnover of junior doctors in the department. Hopefully we could also convince other units in the country that this is something worth pursuing. White Dr Cornelius Rene ending Mani's report there. Joining us to talk more broadly about these issues on the line from Newcastle is David Cotterell, who's a consultant at the Royal Victoria Infirmary, and perhaps more importantly, from our point of view, is Chairman of the Education Committee of the Royal College of Ophthalmologists. David Cotterell, you've recently rewritten I think the curriculum for the training of registrars in ophthalmology, is this something your curriculum has taken on board? Cotterell I'm pleased to say it is something we've taken on board. White I mean do those experiences of Mani's - do they ring a bell, I know the kind of things that you perhaps are not as surprised about as maybe we ought to be? Cotterell I have to admit I'm not surprised about them and it's something that we took into account, as you say, when we came to rewrite the curriculum. All the royal colleges have been rewriting curricula because of major changes in medical training, due to come into effect in August this year. And I'm pleased to say that our curriculum has - well it has many separate learning outcomes which trainees should endeavour to achieve. It has a list of 24 practical skills and number one of those is - and I quote: "All trainees must be able to provide practical assistance for people with visual impairment. They must recognise problems with and arrange appropriate modifications to the clinical environment". White Now you've been aiming this I think at doctors, what about other health professionals because of course the nurse has perhaps the closest and the most regular contact with the visually impaired patient? Cotterell I'm sure that's correct. Nurses and indeed of course clerical staff, who meet patients when they appear at the front desk of an eye department. Certainly the Royal College of Nurses I'm aware that they have a list of competencies for ophthalmic nursing staff and reading that it shows that they very much encourage a sort of holistic approach to care which certainly includes the aspects we've been discussing today. The Association of Health Professionals in Ophthalmology has supported the development of a new foundation degree in ophthalmic science and technology which is planned to suit the variety of supporting staff who work in eye departments, such as technicians and such like. And this has a curriculum which certainly includes communication, promotion of equality and special needs. White Can I just ask you finally David, I mean I've been working on this programme since the early '70s, my predecessor was working on it since it started in '61 and we do - we'd come across this problem, Mani's now experienced it, how do you - really in very basic terms perhaps get rid of this because it does seem very strange that it should be such a big problem in a specialist eye unit? Cotterell Well certainly I'm sad to hear of the problem, I think it has a variety of reasons. There are conflicting pressures on staff to - particularly as more and more patients are to be pushed through as fast as possible. The fact that actually significantly sight impaired patients are relatively in the minority in an eye clinic. Staff are concerned not to be patronising, it's a question of getting the balance right. I hope that the new curricula that are coming in for ophthalmologists, for nurses, for other professions will help the situation and we're certainly planning to monitor very carefully to make sure that it happens. White David Cotterell thank you very much indeed. And that's it for today but of course as always we want your reactions and your suggestions to anything you've heard, you can call our action line on 0800 044 044 and you can e-mail us at In Touch at bbc.co.uk. That's it, from me Peter White, my producer Ian Macrae and the rest of the team, goodbye. Back to top |
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