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BBC Radio 4 In Touch |
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Listen to this programmeFactsheet of this programmeTranscript of this programme Print this page FactsheetIn TouchRadio 4 TX Day and Date Tuesday 031006 TX Time 20:40 - 21:00 Line Identity 0800 044 044 Presenter: Peter White Producer: Cheryl Gabriel On this week's programme In Touch reported on the latest development to save the summer courses for blind and partially sighted people at Bristol University . A group of students lead by tutor Karen Colebourne handed in a petition to the council of Bristol University asking for the courses to be saved. The students then had a meeting to discuss ways of funding and running the courses independently. Gary O'Donoghue got a hands on experience when he visited the Sense and Sensuality exhibition at Bankside Gallery in London in which all the exhibits are accessible to blind and partially sighted visitors. It runs until the 8th of October. Contributors BRISTOL UNIVERSITY Bristol University has decided to axe courses for blind and partially-sighted people after twenty-five years because, it's argued, there's no money to fund them and they don't lead to a reputable qualification. Centre for Access and Communication Studies (CACS), University of Bristol Telephone (voice): (0117) 9545710 Textphone: (0117) 9545715 BLIND ART Sense and Sensuality is an exhibition in London where the artists have been told that their works must be accessible to blind and partially-sighted people: by touch, by sound, by taste or smell, or a combination of all four. Venue: Bankside Gallery 48 Hopton Street , London SE1 9JH Tel: (020) 7928 7521 The exhibition runs from the 14 th of September until the 8th of October G ENERAL CONTACTS RNIB Royal National Institute of the Blind 105 Judd Street London WC1H 9NE Talk & Support Services telephone number: 0845 3303723 Helpline: 0845 766 9999 ( UK callers only - Monday to Friday 9am to 5pm ) Tel: 0207 388 1266 (switchboard/overseas callers) Web: www.rnib.org.uk The RNIB provides information, support and advice for anyone with a serious sight problem. They not only provide Braille, Talking Books and computer training, but imaginative and practical solutions to everyday challenges. The RNIB campaigns to change society's attitudes, actions and assumptions, so that people with sight problems can enjoy the same rights, freedoms and responsibilities as fully sighted people. They also fund pioneering research into preventing and treating eye disease and promote eye health by running public health awareness campaigns. HENSHAWS SOCIETY FOR BLIND PEOPLE (HSBP) John Derby House 88-92 Talbot Road Old Trafford Manchester M16 0GS Tel: 0161 872 1234 Email: info@hsbp.co.uk Web: www.henshaws.org.uk Henshaws provides a wide range of services for people who have sight difficulties. They aim to enable visually impaired people of all ages to maximise their independence and enjoy a high quality of life. They have centres in: Harrogate, Knaresborough, Liverpool, Llandudno, Manchester , Newcastle upon Tyne, Salford, Southport and Trafford. THE GUIDE DOGS FOR THE BLIND ASSOCIATION (GDBA) Burghfield Common Reading RG7 3YG Tel: 0118 983 5555 Email: guidedogs@guidedogs.org.uk Web: www.guidedogs.org.uk The GDBA's mission is to provide guide dogs, mobility and other rehabilitation services that meet the needs of blind and partially sighted people. ACTION FOR BLIND PEOPLE 14-16 Verney Road London SE16 3DZ Tel: 0800 915 4666 (info & advice) Tel: 020 7635 4800 (central office) Web: www.afbp.org Registered charity with national cover that provides practical support in the areas of housing, holidays, information, employment and training, cash grants and welfare rights for blind and partially-sighted people. Leaflets and booklets are available. NATIONAL LEAGUE OF THE BLIND AND DISABLED Central Office Swinton House 324 Grays Inn Road London WC1X 8DD Tel: 020 7837 6103 Textphone: 020 7837 6103 National League of the Blind and Disabled is a registered trade union and is involved in all issues regarding the employment of blind and disabled people in the UK . NATIONAL LIBRARY FOR THE BLIND (NLB) Far Cromwell Road Bredbury Stockport SK6 2SG Tel: 0161 355 2000 Textphone: 0161 355 2043 Email: enquiries@nlbuk.org Web: www.nlb-online.org The NLB is a registered charity which helps visually impaired people throughout the country continue to enjoy the same access to the world of reading as people who are fully sighted. DISABILITY RIGHTS COMMISSION (DRC) Freepost MID 02164 Stratford-upon-Avon CV37 9BR Tel: 08457 622 633 Textphone: 08457 622 644 Web: www.drc-gb.org The DRC aims to act as a central source of advice on the rights of disabled people, while helping disabled people secure their rights and eliminate discrimination. It can advise on the operation of the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA). DISABLED LIVING FOUNDATION 380-384 Harrow Road London W9 2HU Tel: 0845 130 9177 Web: www.dlf.org.uk The Disabled Living Foundation provide information and advice on disability equipment The BBC is not responsible for external websites General contacts Back to top TranscriptIN TOUCHTX: 03.10.06 2040-2100 PRESENTER: PETER WHITE PRODUCER: CHERYL GABRIEL White Good evening. Tonight: students go to the barricades but they're not hot headed young radicals, these are mature blind people trying to protect the courses they've come to love. Actuality - Art Exhibition And I suppose that could have been the sound of students storming the barricades, a rather polite student anyway, in fact it's the sound of our reporter, Gary O'Donoghue, coming into sharp contact with an unusual exhibit at an equally unusual art exhibition. An appreciation and some more sound effects later on. First though, we return to those courses for blind and partially sighted people which Bristol University has decided to axe after 25 years, because, it's been argued, there's no money to fund them and they don't lead to reputable qualifications. But, as we heard a couple of weeks ago, it's a decision which has got former and current students up in arms because they feel that an almost unique resource is being thrown away for bureaucratic reasons which have ignored the courses' value. Some people have been some grateful for the opportunities that the summer schools have provided that they've even donated their own money to help sustain them. People like Valerie Kinder, who was surprised to hear money quoted as one of the reasons for the courses' demise. Kinder I made a donation of £5,000 to the summer schools. I was certainly not the first or the only one to have done it. And when I made the donation I also wrote a letter saying that it was to be used purely for the summer schools and that any interest accruing to it was to go back and also to be the used to the summer schools. I wrote to Professor Clarke and in his reply he stated that he had been completely unaware that these donations had been made. Now he also said CACS had been under review and I find it very difficult to understand how if the department had been under close review how could they possibly have not known that this money existed? I find that incredible. White Well intrigued by this we asked the university to explain what had happened to this money. This is the answer we received from the Pro Vice-Chancellor, Professor David Clarke's office. Response From Pro Vice-Chancellor's Office Valerie Kinder wrote to the university at the end of July saying that she'd donated £5,000 in 1997 to support the summer schools and that she'd instructed that all interest accruing to that sum should be added to the summer school account. The university replied on 24th August saying that we were not aware that donations had been made directly to the Centre for Access and Communication Studies to support the courses for visually impaired people but that if Mrs Kinder were to supply further details we would be happy to investigate with a view to refunding any money owed to her. We have not heard from her since then. We have undertaken an initial trawl of the CACS accounts and have identified no donations that have not been used for the purpose for which they were given. It is still open to Mrs Kinder to provide the university with evidence for any claim she would like to make. Well whatever you make of that what was clear, when we debated the issue, on the programme, was that the students and some of their tutors weren't going to give up and last Friday, as promised, they assembled to make their feelings known to the council of Bristol University. Our reporter Mani Djazmi was there, he began by talking to some of the students. Vox Pops I left school at 16 unable to read or write because I couldn't see to do so. The school for partially sighted made things bigger and I still couldn't read them, I learnt to read afterwards. So this has given me an opportunity to do some educational stuff that I would never have done. I've tried ordinary courses and I'm too nervous, I can't take it in. I did a one day course on Egyptology and I had one little papyrus [indistinct word] to feel and the rest was all talk and no explanation from the front at all and they knew I was coming. Whereas here we have one to one guiding, tactile maps, drawings, models. You go to an ordinary course it's for sighted people. Protesting Students Djazmi Well I'm with Karen Colebourn, who's one of the tutors on the courses, and who we heard from two weeks ago on the programme. A lot of people here, a lot of feeling but ultimately what can you really achieve? Colebourn Well I think that the least that we're expecting to achieve is for the university to enable us to carry on with a few courses next year, so that we're given a bit of time to organise ourselves into doing these courses independently, that would tied us over until we've got ourselves organised. Perhaps the university council members hadn't realised just how important these courses were for individuals and we're hoping that that will make a difference. Protesting Students A lot of them are holding banners, there's one very large one which says "25 Years, 120 Courses, 1800 Blind Students - Binned by Bristol University". And then: "Hands Off Hands On Learning". Thank you Mr Taylor for coming to meet us here today, I want to present you with a petition with two and a half thousand names and signatures on it and also with a file of letters from our students and other people who are interested in getting the university to change its mind about closing these courses. Taylor I'll take those and I will talk to the Vice-Chancellor about them and I'll give a response as soon as we can. Thanks very much for coming along this morning. Djazmi Mr Taylor it's Mani Djazmi from In Touch at Radio 4 here. You're the communications director, is that right? Taylor Yes I am. Djazmi You've just received this petition and some letters. Are they wasting their time, ultimately is it a fait accompli? Taylor Well I don't think it would ever be right to say that people are wasting their time by collecting a petition and letters because I think that's a really important part of the democratic process isn't it - to try and have your voice heard. And of course the governing body of the university in theory can do pretty much what it wants. I'd have to say, if I'm honest though, that I'd have thought the prospects for a change of heart are very remote because as you may know the university's conducted two reviews over a three year period of this provision and it's been discussed twice by university council, the governing body, and we've had a great deal of very helpful input from students on the courses. And so I think therefore having made their decision on the basis of all of that work it would be wrong for me to say that there's much chance of a reprieve. Djazmi Well the petition and letters delivered, the demonstration has moved on to the Bristol University students union building and everyone has convened here to hold a meeting because they want to try and run the courses independently and they're here to decide who will be on the board and how they will go about raising funds and it's very much hoped that this meeting will be the starting point of a whole new era in providing the same level of expertise and the same kind of courses to the students who have been coming here over the last 25 years or so. White That report from Bristol by Mani Djazmi. So is it really the case that courses like these are not now the province of our universities? A couple of weeks ago we invited the Minister for Higher Education and Lifelong Learning, Bill Rammell, on to the programme to discuss some of these issues. Unfortunately he's not been available and instead he's sent us a statement. This is part of what his office told us: "Universities have always been and will continue to be free to decide for themselves which courses they stop, start, expand or reorganise. Since 1997 we've increased funding by over 20% in real terms so that all institutions have an incentive to respond positively to student demand." So it looks like if the students want this course to go on they're pretty much on their own. Now regular listeners to this programme will know that I'm not the biggest fan of tactile art. Still that's a personal thing and many people get an enormous amount of fun and pleasure from it. And increasingly art galleries and museums are seeing it as their function to make some of their exhibitions more accessible. The days of Do Not Touch, if not completely gone are certainly fading. But an exhibition on at that moment in London has taken this concept a stage further. Called Sense and Sensuality they've commissioned an exhibition where the artists have been instructed that their works must be accessible to blind and partially sighted people, by touch, by sound, by taste, by smell or a combination of all four. We decided we wouldn't burden you with my curmudgeonly reactions, instead we asked Gary O'Donoghue, one of the BBC's political correspondents, to take time off from the round of party conferences, to go to the exhibition for us. And Gary joins me now from Bournemouth. So Gary there are a lot of these, what was this one like? O'Donoghue I thought this one was extremely impressive I must say, I have a certain scepticism about these things, I'm not someone who likes being dragged round museums and galleries as a child and have horrific memories of the boredom that would ensue for the next few hours when that happened as a child. But I have a certain enthusiasm for knowing what real life works of art can feel like and get an impression of what they might look like to the sighted world. So I must say I turned up at the Bankside Gallery in positive mood. I'm disposed to like these sort of things - I'm not quite so much of a sceptic as Peter White is about art for blind people. So I'm quite excited about what you've got here. Lamont Well we've come only a short way into the gallery space ... O'Donoghue Blind Art's principle stipulation on running the competition was that all works had to be able to be touched. A few gentle sculptures you might think and of course there were some of those. But some of the works were really quite striking. You didn't so much touch them as they touched you. Andrew Lamont, himself partially sighted and curator of the exhibition, was my guide. Lamont We're going to the other end of the gallery now. And this one I think you'll enjoy because of its shock value. But it's not dangerous and ... O'Donoghue I'm not going to get - it's not an electric fence that you've cunningly placed ... Lamont No, keep going. O'Donoghue Oh my god. [Exhibition noises] Yes. Quite. Lamont You're welcome to do it again. O'Donoghue I think I will if I may. It felt like a kind of - one of those things that used to hang outside butchers' shops, those curtainy things but this one is rather - seems to be made of enormous quantities of plastic bottles. Well I hope there all fully emptied out. Oh dear. Lamont You've absolutely right, although you've managed to collect your own bottles. O'Donoghue I do seem to have one, it looks like a kind of Evian bottle or something but ... Lamont The description of the bottle I'm not sure but they are all bottles, this is a cube of bottles, six foot in all three directions of bottles. So ... O'Donoghue That's extraordinary. Lamont So whatever height you are you go through bottles - 663 bottles. O'Donoghue Well I think that's great. I wonder if you'd get bored of it, that's the only thing. Black Cube, as the bottles are entitled, is at the centre of the gallery space. A space which I found easily navigable as a totally blind person. But there is one piece which is difficult to distinguish from the fabric of the building and indeed has become part of the fabric. Lamont This is a piece that's a little bit like a banister, so yes you've just got the banister rail now, it goes in front but it runs off to the left and right, as if it's at the top of a staircase and you've got a landing one side and you've got staircase down the other. And ... O'Donoghue I suppose that's the risk that people might just think it's part of the fabric. Lamont Well that is the intention and fun aspect. So it feels like that but you'll quite quickly notice that as well as the banister, just right by them, are sort of pegs - feel like large keys. O'Donoghue Tuning pegs, yeah. Lamont Yes they're tuning pegs, exactly because the piece although untitled is made of wood, as you've already felt, the pegs, as mentioned, and cello strings. O'Donoghue Ah these are the things underneath aren't they. Lamont You've just discovered them. And the balusters - the normal uprights in a supporting rail around the top of the stairs - are replaced by these strings. And [noise]... O'Donoghue Oh good lord. Lamont You play this piece of art. [Playing the art] O'Donoghue Oh indeed you do. Well I'm not very musical but that sounds rather nice doesn't it. Hornby My name is Nick Hornby and my piece - it's untitled in fact - I think it's been affectionately named The Out of Tune Banister. O'Donoghue You're a sighted artist aren't you. Hornby I am. O'Donoghue So what was the attraction of this sort of competition for you, I mean it's a really specialised recherche area of - in terms of the audience? Hornby Well you say that - and I'm not going to be contentious - but it was so important to me for this project not to make a piece of work which only existed for the partially sighted or blind people, I wanted to make a piece of work which I hopefully - my ideal experience would be if a sighted person or an unsighted person could have almost the same experience from it, that was really, really important. O'Donoghue There are more than 70 pieces and installations on show. One of my favourites is a work called Quipu by Andrew Senior which was also a prize winner. Andrew Lamont, the curator, had to guide me gently to an understanding of the piece. I'm going to put my hands forward, that's a wall I think or - ah and what I've found is netting, it's [indistinct words], I'm resting my palms on it and not moving. I'm now going to explore and now I'm finding within the netting much thinner pieces of nylon or cotton, much thicker piece of rope like material and it's about just short of my arm span wide. Lamont Because it is an icon. O'Donoghue Right. Lamont World famous, all those who've ever been to London know this in an instant. O'Donoghue Oh isn't that interesting. Lamont Each of the strands that you've discovered are in different colours and they run in varying directions, right through the middle is a red line. O'Donoghue Okay, a red line. Lamont It goes from east to west, dropping all the time but ... because you know that - you may never have been told that the line in London that runs from east to west is the Central Line. O'Donoghue Oh this is a tube map? Lamont Yes. O'Donoghue I imagine some of your fellow curators would have had apoplexy at the idea of all this groping but I have to say I knew I would enjoy it and I have enjoyed it and I'm grateful to you for showing me around, so thank you very much. Lamont My please. White Gary O'Donoghue, obviously having a whale of a time. It was obvious how much you enjoyed that. I think my take on it is how difficult it is to enjoy things from the sense of touch. You didn't mention there - you picked out things I love - but you didn't mention all the kind of acres of ceramics and marble that you have to run your hands along and take a long time to identify, it's so slow in a way and you can't with touch get the whole sense of it, you can only touch a tiny bit at a time, you can't get that real sense of totality that you need for art. What's your take on that? O'Donoghue That is true and it is much easier with pieces that in a sense are more manageable in size. But the one thing I do like and I think where we disagree is that I quite like things that reveal themselves slowly. So when I said there that I thought you'd get bored of the bottles I think that's true because I think it's a sort of one hit wonder in some senses. Whereas with some of the sculptures particularly, I mean there's one that to me looked like a tortoise initially, I thought this looks like a tortoise because it's a sort of shelly thing and looks like a head poking out of the end, it turns out that it's a kind of representation of a child being born, it's a sort of pelvis effectively with the head emerging. And sort of as that starts to become clear you start to see detail that you didn't see before and I quite like that kind of journey of interpretation and discovery, I find that more rewarding and I imagine that's something that would stay with you longer. I don't know if you saw that other piece that - it's very difficult - sort of jagged pieces of pottery and I thought metal but it is pottery and a sort of knobbly bit at the top which turns out to be something rather - from the erogenous zone apparently. White I did see that. I also like the bullet hole, I thought that was very clever - a jagged bullet hole - which made it clear to me what awful wounds a gun imposes. But there's another aspect to this though isn't it which is touching is quite a personal thing and you're doing it in public and you're doing it quite often with people queuing up behind you. That's why I think in some ways I don't find it a very satisfactory experience. O'Donoghue There wasn't a great pressure of people when I went and that may be to my advantage I must say. It's interesting, I remember many years ago going to the Rodin Museum in Paris and a rather enlightened curator there said yes of course you can touch things. And I felt that the people around me were rather jealous actually, that they would have liked to have run their hand down a smooth piece of sculpture or across this or that and I felt rather privileged. So I think it doesn't look very odd because I think these things invite, I mean sculptures invite you to touch them I think, that's what they're there for. White Gary, thank you very much indeed. That's Gary O'Donoghue. And it is a very personal thing and there's still plenty of opportunity to do it. It's on at the Bankside Gallery which is in Southeast London and it's on until the 8th October. That's it for today. From me Peter White, producer Cheryl Gabriel and the rest of the team, goodbye. Back to top |
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