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ESA Appeal Lost

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Messages: 1 - 23 of 23
  • Message 1. 

    Posted by Pusscat01 (U14581248) on Sunday, 3rd July 2011

    I had my tribunal appeal on Friday to be placed in Support Group.

    I lost it.

    I'm am staying in the WRAG, but I just do not know what to do now. I have multiple, chronic medical conditions which are very debilitating.

    I appealed on the grounds of continence issues, but failed. They obviously did not think it relevant enough for me to be put into the Support Group.

    I did attend the Jobcentre when my initial claim was done for the Pathways to Work part, when I first claimed, and I was sent home by the lady I saw when we discussed my medical problems as she said she could not help me as I was too ill to work and should not have even been there. My health has even deteriorated since then as my kidneys have got worse. The doctor at the tribunal yesterday told me that if I was on dialysis I would automatically be in the Support Group. Not very helpful really considering they deemed me as not being ill enough to go into the Support Group.........

    I am being put on the list for a kidney and pancreas transplant, but that does not make a bit of difference, and now the decision has been made by the tribunal for me to stay in the WRAG I think I have to just keep going through the motions, and carry on like this for as many times as it takes for me to be assessed and the same decision to come out of it each time, and never being fit enough to work.

    It will be a very interesting situation when I do receive info regarding the WRAG session when they are informed of this most recent decision.

    I have vision problems, as mentioned above among other chronic conditions, even with the new descriptors I still score points that mean I go into the WRAG alone. I really feel I should never have been called in for a medical assessment, and still think I should be in the support group, but do not know what to do if this happens again. It seems an extreme waste of time that I go for the assessements, but if it means ATOS are ticking their boxes I guess that's why I am.

    It is very frustrating and stressful, and does not do me any favours with my health either. As I am just going to be going round and round in circles.

    I just cannot understand why I lost my appeal, and now I feel like the victim in all of this, and it's horrible.

    I have serious medical conditions which mean I cannot work. I am unemployable.

    When you get sent home from the Jobcentre being told "you are too il too work, there is nothing we can do to help you. You should not even have been called here."

    And then when you go for your ATOS assessment the assessor says to you "You are a genuinely ill person and you are too ill to work. If the result comes back not in your favour appeal it and you will be placed in the right (support) group."

    This has not happened, so what am I supposed to do now?

    I did not have a rep with me on Friday, as the one I was taking did not know anything about the Support Group and I had to explain over and over again to him what it was. When I complained to Enable Ability about him I was told he was the only person available to come. So my husband came with me instead.

    I’m sorry if I have rambled a bit, but I am very confused about the whole situation.

    If I need to give any more information please let me know?

    Any help or advice would be very much appreciated, I feel like I'm backed into a corner.

    Thank you

    Pusscat xx

    Report message1

  • Message 2

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by Stephen (U14331013) on Sunday, 3rd July 2011


    Your options are limited.

    You can seek leave to apeal to the Upper Tribunal, however, you need to show that there has been an error of law or procedure during the original hearing. The first thing to do is request a Statement of Reasons from the tribunal judge and to find an advisor who has experience in this type of appeal.

    If you can show that your condition has deteriorated since your original claim, then you can ask the DWP for a suppersession to consider placing you in the Support Group.

    Lastly you can wait for your next re-assessment and try for the Support Group again.

    Report message2

  • Message 3

    , in reply to message 2.

    Posted by Pusscat01 (U14581248) on Sunday, 3rd July 2011


    My condition has deteriorated since the original appeal was made, as I am now being placed on the list for a kidney and pancreas transplant (I am not currently undergoing dialysis).

    I have also had to have iron infusion treatment because I have severe anaemia, and my Autonomic Neuropathy is causing me to have an increased heartbeat as my nerves are not functioning properly and my heart has to work harder to pump the blood around my body to supply those nerves that are not working properly. The ones which have died (the ones in my stomach and gastric system), will never repair.

    I have been put on pills to slow it down, because otherwise I would be in real trouble if it continued to beat like it was.

    Will any of this help me in a secondary appeal.

    The lawyer also mentioned about Awareness of Hazard at the tribunal, which is something I do not have, and I do not cope with well. Mainly because of visual problems. But as it comes into the mental heatlh descriptors, it does have an effect on the way I feel to, as it is frightening and difficult to cope with.

    I know my case is very complex as I have multiple, chronic medical conditons.

    My doctor has always been willing to help out with any documentation and letters I have needed. Should I make an appointment to go and see him for more help?

    Are these reasons enough to ask for a seconday appeal to be done.

    Any help, as always, very much appreciated.

    Pusscat xx

    Report message3

  • Message 4

    , in reply to message 3.

    Posted by Sofie2 (U14259204) on Sunday, 3rd July 2011

    Do you meet the descriptors for support group? It doesn't matter what your disabilities are.

    Report message4

  • Message 5

    , in reply to message 4.

    Posted by Pusscat01 (U14581248) on Sunday, 3rd July 2011


    Yes, I do.

    But they did not find in my favour at the tribunal. It was very tough and difficult. I felt so awful.

    Some of the questions were hard to answer and I had lots of problems with some of the things I was asked.

    Pusscat xx

    Report message5

  • Message 6

    , in reply to message 5.

    Posted by Pusscat01 (U14581248) on Sunday, 3rd July 2011

    I have just been looking through the Support Group descriptors, and not only do I pass on continence grounds.

    I also suffer from cognitive impaiment as I am finding it difficult to move around in my own surroundings as I am frequently bumping into things and having accidents.

    I pose a danger to myself and others with awareness of hazard due to this too. And my health has deteriorated recently due to things getting worse.

    I feel I ought to contact somebody about going further with this. I need to get all the paperwork too.

    Does this seem correct to anybody who can help out with some more advice, as this is what I am understanding. I have never had to deal with anything like this before, and it really does help?

    Pusscat xx

    Report message6

  • Message 7

    , in reply to message 6.

    Posted by devine63 (U14166755) on Sunday, 3rd July 2011

    Hello pusscat

    I'm really sorry to read of your difficulties with the ESA and Appeal process, others will come along who can advise you more about that. I would suggest you make an appointment to go an see you MP at his surgery (going in person ensures you deal with him/her personally and not an underling) and tell him/her about all of this, especially the part about the Job Centre telling you that they cannot help because you are too ill to work.

    I have a couple of suggestions which may help to strengthen your case assuming that you have to go all around the process again:

    First, you said you have been placed on the transplant list. Can you get one of your doctors to estimate your current life expectancy (without a transplant)? I realise that this will be difficult news to hear, but it should help the decision makers to understand how ill you are.

    Second, you mentioned having cognitive impairment - assuming you have not already had a formal psychometric assessment (which will document the nature and extent of the impairments and which skills are affected) ask your doctor to refer you to your local Neuropsychologists who can undertake such psychometric assessment - again the report should help them to understand the nature and impact of your impairments (including the inability to assess danger).

    I hope this is helpful,
    regards, Deb

    Report message7

  • Message 8

    , in reply to message 7.

    Posted by Pusscat01 (U14581248) on Sunday, 3rd July 2011

    Thank you. My impairment is more linked to my visual problems.

    But I get chronically tired too, and a combination of the two of them cause me to be a danger to myself and other people.

    I was actually going to type all the information up about what has happened, and all the details of my full medical conditions to take along with me. I know he is my doctor, but they aren't always aware of everything that is happening, and it would probably be beneficial if I refreshed his mind.

    My doctor is aware of all of this and would be more than willing to back me up on it. Is that good enough standing to go back to appeal on. I know he would also give me predicted life expectancy with my kidney damage too.

    I did go to my MP initially and ask for a letter, which she was more than willing to do. Should I get in contact with her again, highlighting my new medical issues and ask it she will write a further letter.?

    I know this is all very complex as I suffer from multiple, chronic medical conditions, and that makes it very complicated. I can go further into my medical conditions, I really don't mind if outlining them further would help with any advice that anyone wants to give me?

    Thank you

    Pusscat xx

    Report message8

  • Message 9

    , in reply to message 3.

    Posted by Stephen (U14331013) on Monday, 4th July 2011


    As I said an appeal to the Upper Tribunal can only be made on the basis that there has been an error of law or procedure in the original tribunal, your health, current or past, is completely irrelevant to this process.

    Report message9

  • Message 10

    , in reply to message 3.

    Posted by Stephen (U14331013) on Monday, 4th July 2011


    You mention the Awareness of Hazard test, this is one of the metal health tests, you can't score points for this because of bad eyesight as this would be a physical problem. You can only score points in the Mental health tests if you can show that the disability is the result of a mental health problem.

    Report message10

  • Message 11

    , in reply to message 10.

    Posted by Pusscat01 (U14581248) on Monday, 4th July 2011


    I have checked the descriptors for being put in the Support Group, and I found this.

    (2) A claimant who does not have limited capability for work-related activity as determined in accordance with regulation 34(1) is to be treated as having limited capability for work-related activity if—
    (a)the claimant suffers from some specific disease or bodily or mental disablement; and
    (b)by reasons of such disease or disablement, there would be a substantial risk to the mental or physical health of any person if the claimant were found not to have limited capability for work-related activity.

    I am a danger to myself and other people because of my sight problems. I have had many, many accidents because of it, and am a danger of causing accidents to other people due to this problem as I do not see them properly. I have no confidence because of my sight problems, and would certainly say this is a major problem. Obviously this comes under the description of a bodily disability.

    Does this stand in any way in my favour in all of this?

    Any help much appreciated.

    Pusscat xx

    Report message11

  • Message 12

    , in reply to message 11.

    Posted by Stephen (U14331013) on Monday, 4th July 2011

    What was your condition at the time of the Decision you appealed, would you say that 34(b) applied at that time?

    If you didn't meet the requirements of 34(b) but now do, then it was not a matter that the tribunal could consider.

    If you did, then you need to know whether the tribunal considered this option, which means you need to get the Statement of Reasons.

    Remember, you cannot appeal to the UT, just because the tribunal does not agree with your summation of your condition, only if you can show there has been an error of law or procedure.

    Report message12

  • Message 13

    , in reply to message 12.

    Posted by Pusscat01 (U14581248) on Monday, 4th July 2011


    Yes I did have that problem when I applied. I have been partially-sighted for over 10 years now, which would be a physical disablitiy which would fall under this descriptor.

    Surely this would fall under the category as an error in law?

    They were well aware of my sight problems at the tribunal as they asked me questions, and I told them I was a danger to myself and others because of it, so they knew all of this.

    Pusscat xx

    Report message13

  • Message 14

    , in reply to message 13.

    Posted by Stephen (U14331013) on Monday, 4th July 2011

    If they considered the question of you being at risk and decided that, based on your written and oral evidence, that you did not meet the criteria, then this is not an error of law, just a difference of opinion.

    I know I keep repeating this, but you cannot do anything about this until you receive the Statement of Reasons, and even then you have no automatic right of appeal to the Upper Tribunal.

    This is all about the legislation and any Case Law that clarifies its operation, you have got to get an advisor who understands this process and can represent you if there is a case to pursue.

    Report message14

  • Message 15

    , in reply to message 14.

    Posted by Pusscat01 (U14581248) on Monday, 4th July 2011


    Okay, thank you very much for your help.

    I have a letter ready to go now asking for the statement of reasons and all written notes from the tribunal hearing.

    I've also been in-touch with some people who can represent me. I have a choice of two and need to see which one will work best with and for me.

    All I can do now is send the letter off and wait.

    Your help really is invaluable, as this has something I have never had to do before.

    Many thanks

    Pusscat xx

    Report message15

  • Message 16

    , in reply to message 11.

    Posted by Sofie2 (U14259204) on Monday, 4th July 2011

    You being a risk must be reasonable and be most days. Your lack of confidence is irrelevant here - that doesn't actually stop someone working. You'd also have to provide medical evidence stating that there would be a risk to you / others if you were found fit for work.

    Report message16

  • Message 17

    , in reply to message 16.

    Posted by Pusscat01 (U14581248) on Monday, 4th July 2011

    That is not the only medical problem I have. My medical conditions are multiple, all of which I do not mind discussing here if required.

    Yes, my sight condition is on every day and I would be a risk to wherever there are people and any other hazards around which I could not see. Which would cover anything outside of my peripheral vision, which is an awful lot of things.

    I would have no problem giving evidence of that, my doctor would be willing to.

    Just let me know, it really is of no issue to me to do so.


    Pusscat xx

    Report message17

  • Message 18

    , in reply to message 17.

    Posted by Pusscat01 (U14581248) on Monday, 4th July 2011

    That should have said;

    My sight problem is ongoing and every day........


    Pusscat xx

    Report message18

  • Message 19

    , in reply to message 18.

    Posted by Stephen (U14331013) on Monday, 4th July 2011

    Two final points.

    First, by your own admission, you did not find out about rule 34(b) until after the hearing, it is therefore reasonable to assume you neither argued this point nor provided specific evidence to support it. As such, even if you actually meet the requirements, it would not be an error of law if the tribunal did not find you met the criteria.

    Secondly, the most likely result of an Upper Tribunal hearing is that they will order a re-hearing of the original tribunal, whilst this would give you a chance to submit additional, relevant evidence, there is no guarantee that they will find in your favour either.

    Report message19

  • Message 20

    , in reply to message 19.

    Posted by Pusscat01 (U14581248) on Monday, 4th July 2011


    Okay, thanks.

    I'll sort out who I want to represent me, get this letter sent off requesting the information from the appeal, and take it from there.

    i think that is the best course of action from what I have read.

    I do have continence issues which were discussed at the tribunal, but did not make any difference to their decision, even though I meet the Support Group descriptors.

    Thank you very much for your help.

    Pusscat xx

    Report message20

  • Message 21

    , in reply to message 20.

    Posted by devine63 (U14166755) on Tuesday, 5th July 2011

    Hi pusscat

    First the Ouch messageboard is closing sometime tomorrow.

    Please feel free to join us on eiither Aimoo's Ouch Too
    or "Out of Hours 2" for which I cannot give a link but you can find it with a search engine (it's hosted by RNID)

    With regards your query: yes I would certainly advise you to give your MP an update - they need to know that the system is badly broken and the more concrete examples we can provide the better.

    Another thing you could do is to contribute to the latest review of the Work Capability Assessment which you can do at:

    If your condition has changed since the last time you applied, the simplest thing to do might be to make a new application based on the latest description of ALL your conditions.

    With regards the issue of being a danger to yourself and others: it may be that they took the view that just being partially sighted on its own is not sufficient to meet that criterion. However they may not have taken into account the combined effect of the visual impairment and any cognitive impairments. Perhaps the best way to convince the next panel might be to take a list of the different incidents which have occurred which show that you are unable to judge danger / you are a danger to self and others. Better yet: start now and keep a little diary of every single incident which occurs: date, time, what happened and who witnessed it (if anyone). Then you could show them the diary and they could see how often the problem occurs.

    regards, Deb

    Report message21

  • Message 22

    , in reply to message 21.

    Posted by LikelyLibra2006 (U14553227) on Friday, 8th July 2011

    How does one apply to get on the Support Group from the WRAG?

    After only 2 WFIs my advisor is saying I will be forwarded onto the Work Programme at my next WFI and, as I am on ESA due to stress related illness, the thought of this is affecting my health/recovery.

    Report message22

  • Message 23

    , in reply to message 22.

    Posted by Stephen (U14331013) on Friday, 8th July 2011

    You can't specifucally apply for the Support Group.

    In previous posts you have said that your condition has deteriorated since you last assessment, so providing your GP is prepared to confirm this, you can ask to be re-assessed (it may be necessary to make a new, parallel claim).

    You will have to complete a new ESA50 and probably attend a medical, be careful as it is possible (although unlikely), that you could lose your existing award.

    Report message23

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