Ouch! Talkpermalink
Poll Proposal : disabilism vs non disabilists
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One for those for it
One for those against it
And not one based on poltical correctness or morals but one that potrays what each side wants and why they want it.
I propse a poll should be done then to compare this based on age , type of disability , areas of life that they are happy with i.e. work , physical activties , that have lead them to make their choice - areas of life they are not happy with and how much experince they have in this areas .
I think that this should be done because there is clearly a lot of confusuion here as to what disabled want and causing both fractions to come to head as result of fear of the others influene i.e. abortions , right to die etc
The recent sophie morgan thread I think illustrates this need to be addressed very well throught the uk and not just on the select few on this forum.
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Posted by STRANGELY STRANGE ( A brain on a spring ) (U2496023) on Tuesday, 3rd November 2009 permalink
Isnt it unlikely there are disablists on Ouch!?
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I include age here btw because it is proven scientific fact that age does influence someons biological needs - regardless of disabiliy ,
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Isnt it unlikely there are disablists on Ouch!?
so why arent they here ?
I do see other sites elsewhere , but if this forum is the main one for the uk ( perhaps ) then its clearly misrepresentedThis is a reply to this message.
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Disabilism is no different the non disabilism its just using ones disabilites as incentive to get equal rights - but they wont get that until the start pulling their efforts into sceince and other issues like assisted suicide etc
Asking for anything else and expecting the publice to change is never going to happen , and certianly nto going to change many other important ignored issues ( realtionships for one , activies for one ) and not just workThis is a reply to this message.
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www.scope.org.uk/for...
might check it out - seems very low amount of users
disabilism seems to be just a uk termThis is a reply to this message.
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>> Disabilism is no different the non disabilism its just using ones disabilites as incentive to get equal rights <<
You seem to have a different definition of disablism to anyone else here. Disablism (or Ablism in the counter-intuitive US usage) is discrimination on the basis of disability. So if someone attacks me in the street for being disabled; that's disablism; if someone refuses to adapt their shop to let me in the door, that's disablism; if someone refuses to employ me because of my disability, that's disablism; if someone says 'he's better off dead than disabled' that's disablism.
>> Asking for anything else and expecting the publice to change is never going to happen <<
And yet we changed the situation with racism and homophobia from dominant idealogoies to unacceptable within a couple of generations.This is a reply to this message.
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This might clarify things for people: en.wikipedia.org/wik...
(In the spirit of full disclosure, I wrote the sections explaining the difference between US and UK usage)This is a reply to this message.
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thanks david,
Im still not really sure I agree with idea on changes with racism, i agree its probably lot better than it was but as far as I can see , its still an issue for many - and will be if things here continue as they have ( i mean in the uk )This is a reply to this message.
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Hi helenahol, here is link to thread I started on this subject a while ago but was quite interesting.
Up till the last year i had not heard of this term 'disabalism' and still find it not quite the word for me but understand it better now due to this thread;
www.bbc.co.uk/ouch/m...This is a reply to this message.
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Helen
Let it go. The whole approach you take towards "disability" might find favour with certain groups of people here or in wider society, personally, I would be happy to see it rot in the dustbin of human history.
In my opinion, your approach is the bedrock of disablism, the cornerstone of many people with impairments' oppression and unhappiness. Others will disagree with my analysis eg Bury, WHO, Shakespeare; that's fine.
How disabled people are both seen and treated is an issue that is struggled over - it has social, political and economic aspects which cannot be addressed via biased, pointless, ideologically flawed opinion polls!This is a reply to this message.
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How disabled people are both seen and treated is an issue that is struggled over - it has social, political and economic aspects which cannot be addressed via biased, pointless, ideologically flawed opinion polls!
The trouble is disability is seens as being less or broke because it has not advantages compared to not to being disabled .
Even if you took the whole sufering aspect of it making you more kind etc, well there are many non disabled who develop empathy and those things too .
There is almost nothing in our culture I can think of that is more preferable when less , or broken unless it was bad to start with .
You dont leave an animal injuired , and you dont go buying mobiles phones that can only work in certain distance.
My point is not one of culture choosing who they react to us , us much as being conditioned to through how these issues play out in every day life.
There is no examples of things , imparied in culture that is benefical , desirable unless its usually something like wine , or physical looks etc
If you think the average person ( who heavily invests into the material aspects of beauty now more than ever ) is going to change , then perhaps you have reason why they havent .
I dont have problem with being disabled on basic everyday , get the shopping , or work ( sometimes ) issue but beyond that it is not like i can really do acitivies physically now , or even casually hang out unless its it the same damm places.
I would like to or examplt go hiking , maybe white water rafting and so forht with my Brother but i cant - if you think that benefit ( because no ones going to go in wheelchair jsut to be with ) then Im all ears.
For me however I do not see disability as helpul , I wish it were only temporary but of course if you or others like it , then by all means are left to your own.
I just dont like how the majority views here are affecting and influeicning the wider perceptions that are needed for change ie. through science .
So if you think the publics views are damming of your acceptance just remember your own views are also damming to folk like me , who do not like being like this at all.This is a reply to this message.
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I dont like being almost blind, I dont like being in pain and I dont like being in pain and I hate being depressed all that said I dislike even more the way it leads people who dont have these problems to treat me.. both individuals and the institutions of society.
Whilst all these things may make life more difficult for me that it was, I dont feel Im less of a person.. and I resent being talked down to and made less able by people who think theyre being "kind" and by a society which does little to increase my access and assistance so that I can be more able.
Discrimination and prejudice against disabled people is no less serious or uncommon than it is for people of non indigenous races / genderand sexuality but it usually goes unnoticed even when its glaringly obvious and isnt even recognised by many non disabled peopel because they simply dont understand the problems we face, generally thinking if a building has a ramp it "must" and that we poor " disabled folk " are being well looked after.be accessible
Being disabled is now part of who I am and im coming slowly to "live " with it and to be more comfortable with it even tho id love to see well etc.
Maybe one day Ill not be too bothered .. its hard tho because each time i notice i see a little less i get angry and down again..
What Im no longer happy to live with is the anti disabled people wave that seems to be emminating from the government and its institutions and from the media and through them to individuals who have little or no knowledge and understanding even of the basics of what a condition can do, let alone of sdisabled people as friends and aquaintances.This is a reply to this message.
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Well it's taken you along time to get off the fence and say what you really feel.
You have your views; I believe they correspond to dominant ones within society. There is however a difference between challenging views and practices that flow from them and closing down debate on them.
My difficulty with you is that you don't appear to be listening to what others are saying - doesn't mean you have to accept our opinions, but if you can't see where we're even coming from, how can there be a dialogue?
You keep implying that the meaning of "disability" is a given; it isn't. I am happy to be who and what I am, that doesn't translate into I'm happy to be subjected to being seen and treated as an inferior being.
If I hadn't been born with CP, I can't second guess what I might or might not have done; my life could've been better or worse. As it is, I am what I am; there's little point dwelling on what might have been. Some individuals may feel medical interventions will improve the quality of their lives; others don't but it isn't up to society to dictate what is "acceptable" what isn't.This is a reply to this message.
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Posted by STRANGELY STRANGE ( A brain on a spring ) (U2496023) on Wednesday, 4th November 2009 permalink
Helenahol, perhaps your unaceptance of your disability isnt so diffent to how many people view theirs in that their are parts you hate, some more bearable. I MH probs and hate loudly talking to myself in public, but enjoy having conversations with Virgin Mary hallucination.
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>> The trouble is disability is seens as being less or broke because it has not advantages compared to not to being disabled . <<
Precisely the same arguments were made over race. Do you think the term 'White Man's Burden' came from an assumption of equality?
>> If you think the average person ( who heavily invests into the material aspects of beauty now more than ever ) is going to change , then perhaps you have reason why they havent . <<
Ideals of beauty are constantly in flux. A couple of centuries ago the ideal woman was distinctly well padded, now we're on the recoil from stick-thin androgyny. Not so long ago mixed-race marriages caused outrage, now they're unremarkable and the offspring often considered particularly attractive. The populace does change it's opinions, though it can be so slow as to be almost imperceptible.
>> So if you think the publics views are damming of your acceptance just remember your own views are also damming to folk like me , who do not like being like this at all. <<
I've been arguing cure as personal choice, acceptance whatever the situation. How does that damn you?This is a reply to this message.
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Posted by STRANGELY STRANGE ( A brain on a spring ) (U2496023) on Wednesday, 4th November 2009 permalink
Helenahol~have you thought about trying some of the weird and wacky wheelchair user adapted things like Dry Slope Skieing(sp?) or Companion Cycling? I am sure others will have other suggestions too.
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quote>Whilst all these things may make life more difficult for me that it was, I dont feel Im less of a person.. and I resent being talked down to and made less able by people who think theyre being "kind" and by a society which does little to increase my access and assistance so that I can be more able
stop right there my friend.
Remember what i said about words being misleading ( including your own - i mean any one here ) ?
Well, Look at this example , " I don’t feel Im less of a person.. "
Ok so that how you feel when folk offer you assistance , or perhaps even otherwise .
But how do you know then heir offering you assistance for that reason i,e, you insinuate that their , " being kind ".
So regardless of whether they are not it still appears to you that way.
The reason I ask you and others here is because “ I’m just curious how your come to that conclusion and if its the same with other here ? - in other words how do you perceive it ?
You mention for example being talked down to , do you mean in an condescending manner i.e. through what they say in certain circumstances ( the obvious being one ) and their tone of voice ?
I can tell you even non-disabled have that problem of being assertive about themselves but its more apt with folk like ourselves .
I’m only seeing this to suggest disabilities merely exacerbate that point and put people with those perhaps hidden weaknesses in their life at more disadvantage position and therefore more sensitive to it and less able to cope ie because they never had to before.
Thankfully I learned my lessons regarding this area before I became as bad as I am so its not a problem or me to make them clear what im about , but things like expression of emotion , even dress help too.
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>> The trouble is disability is seens as being less or broke because it has not advantages compared to not to being disabled . <<
Precisely the same arguments were made over race. Do you think the term 'White Man's Burden' came from an assumption of equality?
Yes but the word race i.e. racism was an illogical debate and not scientifically proven ( hence the racism - i.e. unjusitified predjuice based on colour ) , you cant justify us as being the same when it comes to able bodied because you can scientifically prove that we're not .
its not some myth dave,This is a reply to this message.
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Helenahol~have you thought about trying some of the weird and wacky wheelchair user adapted things like Dry Slope Skieing(sp?) or Companion Cycling? I am sure others will have other suggestions too.
hey ss ( if u pardon the shorthand :P )
Yes tried few things - not those but more recently an aqua scooter to swim - however I couldnt hold the handles due to the vibration ( an issue i have everyday with buses too )
I cant cycle i mean my issues are complex - not to sound dismissive , but basically an anomalie - i could write volumes on this and ( onece i get washign done ) will prob head on out to starbucks to sit on my netbook and make people nervous while i finsh my letter to this specialist.
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