Ouch! Talkpermalink
Re ESA and DLA Please Wake Up and Smell the Coffee !!!
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Am I and the few others getting angry and frustrated at the current state of affairs regarding ESA and DLA decision making alone in thinking the following:
A. It is morally and ethically wrong that we are far more likely to be underpaid than overpaid benefits as disabled claimants compared to the rest of the population?
Not my figures but the DWP's own latest statistics.
research.dwp.gov.uk/...
(N.B. Follow link on that page to access the latest release in full)
B. Are we also alone in thinking it is wrong that only those fortunate enough to be able to get help with their claim for ESA or DLA and/or any subsequent reconsiderations or appeals through CAB, WRO's or individual fellow disabled people like myself and others on sites like Ouch and Youreable or paying for it via sites like B&W are likely to ever reverse such errors?
C. Are we alone in thinking it is a national disgrace that all of the above applies even more so for those with mental health issues or intelectual impairment?
www.parliamentlive.t...
Please if you have the spoons listen to this evidence session for the Work and Pensions Select Committee and get a hint of why some of us are starting to question why more voices are not being raised in objection not just in society as a whole but sadly also with the disabled community itself.
When you do so you may be shocked to notice that many of the various "professionals", advisors, charity bods and the like seem to think DLA now works well or at least better than it did.
It is important to remember though that they are only talking about the cases they or their organisations have dealt with and, by their own admission, this is a mere fraction of the whole claimant base and there is absolutely nothing to suggest that those without access to such help are any less deserving and in fact those most in need are often the least likely to get the vital help and support they should.
Sorry if this sounds angry or having a go at people for not getting involved and/or angry and motivated to change things or support those that are, but I simply can't understand the apparent indifference to this issue generally so having one last throw of the perculator in the hope it is simply a lack of awareness of what is "brewing" and why we need to be up in arms if not already taking to the streets. -
I can't follow it without subtitles Peter, but as you know, I agree entirely with the sentiments. I feel quite helpless while this disaster is unfolding.
I did point these things out to the EHRC - they are reading this site apprently. I hope to be pleasantly surprised by their response, but it feels like the outlook is very dark and depressing.
BTW, what did the RNID person have to say?This is a reply to this message.
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Will try to dig out a transcript later Tim as I don't think they do a subtitled version of these broadcasts (Itself a crime)
It even took them three months to release a subtitled version of the main announcement on the Care Green Paper website ie just as the consultation on that is coming to an end and that whole site is supposed to be accessible for *&^%'s sake.
Essentially they all sung from the same songsheet which is that ESA is a disaster and they it takes their involvement to get decisions right on DLA. Grrrrr
Sorry but I sorta lost respect for them on them using this as a sideways way of asking for more funds but that's another issue in the main they raised many of the points I myself had made in my submission where they all fell down was in not being able to answer the committee members questions effectively or did so inaccuartely.
The one saving grace in all of this was that the all agreed what is really needed is claimant involvement in putting the system right.This is a reply to this message.
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yet Jonathan Shaw says tha ESA was designed in partnership with disability organisations I thought a partnership was an agreement between equals not much evidence for that being the case.
john
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yet Jonathan Shaw says tha ESA was designed in partnership with disability organisations
Presumably organisations *for* disabled people rather than *of* disabled people. And most of those orgs have no problem offering the disabled people they claim to represent as sacrificial lambs in their desire to make their non-disabled senior staff more rich and powerful.This is a reply to this message.
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I really want to help as the whole system is driving me p the wall right now. It's a total disgrace but i really don't think i have the spoons to do more than argue my needs to the people i have to call every day to get anything done, I wholeheartedly support what you and others like you are doing however Peter and am very glad there are people out there fighting for us, i hope one day when i have settled down and have sorted myself out i hope to get on your band wagon and help out!
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Yes it all makes me very angry and frustrated,but not quite sure how to get involved.I was quite pro active in the 60s and 70s,but havent got a clue now.Any suggestions??
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I could only "suffer" 25 minutes of this committee's knock-about performance.
What is wrong with people like Terry Rooney? Doesn't he ever reflect upon his own remarks?
I am reminded of an example I use again and again. One a visit to a factory once I saw machines with safety guards off, broken parts held together by string, etc. I turned to the person I was with and said, "God, this is awful!" The person smiled and replied: "Yes, a little noisey and dusty, I know."
The logic seems to be: if X number are successful, even after appeals, the problem isn't with the system or assessors; it is the 'nature' of the claims! I saw an apolitical ping-pong match that sought to appease both the MPs and the charities.
No challenge as to WHY the approach to DLA (at this moment in time) is slightly more "friendly" than that of ESA. Okay, none of us here are fully 'impartial', but the forlock tugging, patronising, apologetic stance of the charities went far beyond the call of duty.
I don't expect a DAN like response at every turn or outright confrontation; but this was just seeking out bread crumbs from the bakery! I feel ill at ease as I'm not directly impacted upon by these things, but I find the 'do gooding' brigade are incapable of mounting any defence or challenge.
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Cool
Thanks Bob that was my reaction too in each and every detail and the hour and half or so you missed just confirmed and reinforced that initial opinion.
That not challenging wrong perceptions or even mistakes in how the system works that were being expressed even by the Chair of a selecet committe on benefits sort of says in all and was what had my son thinking I had finally lost is because I was literally shouting at him in the forelorn hope he would actually both hear me through the screen and actually "Get it".
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I could lip read the white haired man addressing the panel but that was all I could understand, I`ll try again later.
We need to do something NOW, us the disabled people that are being persicuted illegally by the goverment. They have already taken part of our age pension on our IB this April, that meant just under £3 a week loss, this is illegal because we have transitional protection, someone needs to take a stand against this.
ddThis is a reply to this message.
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I should also say a great big thank you too all the other contributors so far it has restored my faith so thanks to one and all.
At least now I know this is not just me barking/howling at the moon (apology if not pc but best I can do in terms of what was in my mind) and more importantly that I'm not alone in wanting this to situation to change and it is just a just the shortage of spoons that gets in the way of others tearing Rooney and Co to ribbons.
Two small new facts for you all to ponder.
The first is that the often maligned RPP (Right payment Program) introduced a few years back has now established beyond any doubt that the previous estimates of overpayments were grossly overstated but the reverse was true for underpayments. The official stats, however, still make a reference to the old 2004/5 stats that had presumed £600 million in overpaid claims due to customers not notifying changes.
In other words even though a rigorus and detailed reviewed done by their own experts relooking at a significant random sample of claims saying this is not true at all, and in fact that the reverse applied, they still work on the basis "but if we tighten the rules far enough we can still squeeze this extra money out of claimants".
Largely I think this is simply because they still believe we must be being overpaid by that amount because that was the number they thought of back in 2005 and surely they couldn't have been that far of on their guess could they?.
The next "fun" fact is that the latest research on linked IB and DLA claims throws up the amazing fact that rich people claim less of both benefits, or at least the proportion of claims in well off areas like the south east and home counties is far less than for areas of known deprivation.
The lack of insigt into just why more people are both sick and disabled and also can't afford not to claim in such areas is completely lost on them albeit possibly understandable in a way.
But here comes the rub, the leap they then take from that simple observation about linked claims works along the lines, "if we can get people off IB to match the levels in well off areas we will actually get them to stop claiming DLA as well." ?????
Double
Can't help but think someone is trying to emulate a certain gentleman who previously once told sick, disabled and even dead people to throw away their crutches and get on their bikes even if only as far as the local job centre.
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One point to make is being informed and making feelings known doesnt have to be a huge effort.
If for example loads of people wrote to their MP/government minister with responsibilty for their concerns that would make an impact.
They are more interested in lots of short pithy letters that make the point rather than pages and pages of writing that wander on or off the subject in hand..
Its also important to pick battles carefully.. dont think most of us can fight every injustice s at once.
theyworkforyou.com can be pretty useful for finding people to write to about pressing issues.
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As far as I know, you can only write to your own mp who will brush off
The D.L.A petition is at number 8 on No 10 website, but all they did is shift goalposts, saying "for now" they wont abolish DLA for under 65 yr olds.
They will snatch it away from everyone who has carried it through from under 65. They will therefore lose ILF and right to control, and motability,and other benefits, because all depend on passporting through being in receipt of DLA.
At present, that is the political response to an overwhelming protest. Note they say the reprieve is only "for now" even for under 65;s Note that all independence as well as most income is abandoned in favour of whatever the local authority decides to dish out.
Note too that they can and will ignore the rest of the Green Paper Care responses, arguing that they have already given in on DLA so the protests are irrelevant.
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I don't have the spoons right now, but wanted to comment so I can then keep track of this thread.
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This just keeps getting better and better.
(Or should that be worser and worser)
Anyone care to guess the current average clearance time being claimed by the DWP for DLA claims?
No its not 16 weeks
or even the usual 12 weeks they put on the letter when you submit a claim its......
its...
its...
its 29.8 days !!!
Honest that's what they have said in their written submission to the Select Committee inquiry along with a bunch of other stuff people here might find, well lets just say "Interesting".
www.publications.par...This is a reply to this message.
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My OH was taken to hospital in the middle of july very ill and his ESA still isnt sorted!
Hes very ill with stage4 (of 5) kidney failure, he can do without the problems of ESA medicals and wondering when he will get paid.
They are taking the *******^^^^ with the published figures.
ddThis is a reply to this message.
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Thanks for the links, Sociable - I will have a look at them more in detail tomorrow, but the DWP document made interesting reading for starters...
My MP has actually responded very well to my letters on these subjects, so I feel it was worth writing. (I haven't had much success with some other politicians, though, and it is frustrating when someone doesn't even acknowledge your letter, never mind what you wrote about)
The next "fun" fact is that the latest research on linked IB and DLA claims throws up the amazing fact that rich people claim less of both benefits, or at least the proportion of claims in well off areas like the south east and home counties is far less than for areas of known deprivation.
The lack of insight into just why more people are both sick and disabled and also can't afford not to claim in such areas is completely lost on them albeit possibly understandable in a way.
But here comes the rub, the leap they then take from that simple observation about linked claims works along the lines, "if we can get people off IB to match the levels in well off areas we will actually get them to stop claiming DLA as well." ?????
Well said - I'm just a number cruncher, but (for me) those paragraphs really highlighted how easy it could be for people to make unexpected leaps of logic from raw statistics (with potentially very negative consequences).This is a reply to this message.
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My bad the Fraud and Error stats are not on the first link I gave earlier but can be found here:
research.dwp.gov.uk/...
Having re-read them it suddenly occurs to me that over half a billion of their supposed improvements in the stats since 2005 are simply down to having grudgingly acknowledged we dont get overpaid by the extra £600 million because of failure to notify changes even if in some quarters they still believe we do. LOLThis is a reply to this message.
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Hi, I have just signed the no 10 petition and also become an affiliate of the pensioners party.I know its hardly earth shattering stuff,but its a start. Thanks for making me think that maybe my views do count.
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I can't really understand to right now but i'll have a look later? How on earth do you get 29.8 days? That is so stupid. Why don't they just say 30 days and have done with it. Who comes up with these things?
As some may have read here i'm really confused with my ESA and it still isn't sorted out. My claim has got all confused and messed up, partly by me being inexperienced and not understanding the way the sickness benefit claims work, but also by a fault from the pen pushers who sort out the benefits at the job centre as well. Despite having my medical by the DWP doctor, i continued to receive letters all the time to say i had to keep sending in a sick note from my GP? I should have never had to do this at all as i had already been assessed. My letter, after the ESA medical by the DWP also stated that i should continue to receive ESA for over 6 months. But i have just recently found out that the doctor who assessed me didn't expect me to go back to work for 12 months?
Why on earth didn't i receive a letter after my DWP medical to say you can stay on ESA for 12 months, between this date and that date and you no longer have to send in sick notes? End of story? Then after that why didn't the letter state something along the lines of telling me that i would have to renew my claim if i still couldn't work? And you know what the truth is, i don't know if i'm ever going to be able to work? Then what am i going to do? This ESA is just a nightmare and they make it so hard for people to understand. Especially baring in mind that a lot of people may have learning difficulties as well and the whole process of claiming ESA, medicals and what to do afterwards has been made so confusing. When you phone up, one person will tell you one thing and another will tell you another. I may even need to go for another medical because my claim has got so messed up? I'm fed up with it. The job centre has been bombarding me with all this different paper work but i have felt too low lately to sort it out. I'm feeling harassed by them as i'm getting so much crossed wired mail from different offices <argh>
When i had my ESA medical, i found that it was exactly like a DLA one and no reference about a person's ability to work. You can still be too ill or disabled to work without qualifying for any need for care in the day or having mobility difficulties. If you can walk over 200m that doesn't mean you can work. Like me, you may have major problems getting in and out of a chair regularly and doing too much little bits of walking. Doing these things that you find hard on a day to day basis equals extra pain which i my case has stopped me from working. But in DWP terms, your walking isn't that bad, we have no idea what affects you or how working makes your pain even more difficult to control, but you can walk over 200m so get to work?
I can't walk over 200m anymore but i'm just surprised they are treating an ESA claim about work capability as the same as DLA? This is in my eyes to make things very, very difficult to new claimants to claim ESA. You would think that perhaps the more severely disabled would qualify (those who can't walk very much or very well and those with care needs or both) but what about everyone else who sits inbetween? There are so many people who need a lot of help and just aren't getting it. Me included.
Sorry for the long post. I hope some of that made sense? I'm not very good at explaining myself but i hope you caught the jist of what i was trying to say?This is a reply to this message.
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