Ouch! Talkpermalink
Self Pitty
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Wed, 24 Jun 2009 21:34 GMT, in reply to hossylass in message 60
Strange how his/her moan about having to pay more for student accommodation at University doesn't count as a whinge, isn't it...This is a reply to this message.
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Yeah, and then they say they have a flat in London too?
Maybe they have nothing to feel sad about? There are people out there with disabiities who have, I'm sure, glorious lives.
We just dont get them on here cos this is a site that SUPPORTS and befriends and advises people with disabilities.
And to ask for support and friendship and advice suggests that there is a need for this, which further suggests that the people who post on here come here for that.
If I was not bothered by my disability, if I didn't need help and advice and a place to let off steam with people who understood what I was going through, then I would be down the pub chatting about Iraq, football or the price of bread.
Or on a different web site at least.
We come here because we have different needs, if that is construed as self-pity then the fault lies in the eyes of the beholder, not us.
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We come here because we have different needs, if that is construed as self-pity then the fault lies in the eyes of the beholder, not us.
I knew it would all be Aunties fault in the end.
No doubt, for our welfare and to force us to reform our ways, Auntie will be told to shut us down as part of the payback for some Faux Par over that scientist who popped his clogs!
I suspect that the Ouchers Upstairs are just playing along with this, keeping their jobs and wage packets, and that is why they suggested that poll and that totally inappropriate question. It was a put up job to stitch us up!
It aint Paranoia when we know they are out to get us!This is a reply to this message.
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>> Disabled people are disproportionatly more whinging than everyone else <<
Disproportionately more whinging, or disproportionately more likely to be trying to fight their way out of a situation in which they are being denied equality?
>> i genuinly feel this creates more stereotype to our community <<
Is it creating a stereotype, or is the stereotype the structure created by non-disabled society to keep us in our place? Society wants photogenic cripples (think March of Dimes and Spastics Society collecting boxes) graciously tugging their forelocks in appreciation of their crumbs of charity, it does not want to be reminded about the messy reality and the rampant disablism that are part of our lives. It is easier to label us bitter crips, twisted by jealousy and manipulated by left wing forces, than it is to accept that we are politically aware adults who know exactly what we want and are working towards that goal.
>> I think we need to shake it off, and start to empower ourselves more by being proactive <<
But that's precisely what we are doing when you accuse us of whinging....This is a reply to this message.
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>> Of course the chief reason i describe myself as disabled is because I am but as my disabilities are invisible some people find it really odd and, as per the article, think i am being unduly negative. <<
I hope you challenge their stereotyping enough to make them realise that the problem is not your choice of the label, but their perception that it is somehow negative!This is a reply to this message.
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isn't this really about how we deal with our emotions more than simply being self pittying?
self pity is an eemotion i dont like, but i'm certainly guilty of it, we all have our bad days, we can all feel a bit sorry for ourselves can't we? but it's how you deal with it, it's when you start taking it out on everyone else that there's a real problem. i think, Engadvisor, you gave a really good example when you said:
Last Monday when I was bullied at work and discriminated against I was able to post on here and felt listened to and felt10 times better for the rant.Today the same thing happened and I was about to go to HR. Luckily I went to the staff canteen and met someone I chat to from another Dept. Luckily she listened to me. For the present probably a lot more productive than going to HR and I felt listened to. On both occasions the rant got the feeling out of my system and I was able to move into a more positive frame of mind
you felt bad but was constructive about it, you came to the board for advice, when the bullying happened again you spoke to a friend about your feelings, you didn't take your mood out on your friend and make someone else feel bad, there's a line between feeling sorry for yourself and being miserable, and expressing your feelings and asking for help, that's dealing with the situation posetivly!
i think i remember your discussion about bullying at work, i'm sorry it's happening again, i hope you're ok.
If everyone with disabilities had pulled their forlocks and been 'grateful' for what they were given ppl would still be walking the street with begging bowls
i don't want to misunderstand you and take your comment out of context, but are you saying that disabled people can't be greatful for what they have and still fight for what they don't at the same time? this is kind of going back to another discussion i know, i'm very thankful for all of the help i have been fortunate enough to recieve, but that doesn't mean i can't recognise that there's room for improvement and wouldn't stand up for my rights where necesary!
as for the point about people not being able to help their behaviour because of MH issues, i accept that is a problem. i don't believe disability should ever be an excuse or as some have called it, a shield for treating others badly, but if someone has a condition where this can't be helped it is a valid reason, not an excuse, but, as such , i think it should be addressed and appropriately delt with for everyone's sake. we shouldn't be unsympathetic, but at the same time shouldn't be compliant with someone being unpleasant, there has to be some guidelines, otherwise people would be going around treating everyone as unpleasantly as they please and believing it's ok to not have to take responsibility for it, that's when a valid reason starts turning in to an excuse. recognise and have consideration for someone's condition, of course we should, be sympathetic to another person's difficulties, deffinetly, but give someone permission to be rude? absolutely not! that isn't good for anyone, it certainly isn't constructive for the person with the issues.
HThis is a reply to this message.
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>> i don't want to misunderstand you and take your comment out of context, but are you saying that disabled people can't be greatful for what they have and still fight for what they don't at the same time? <<
But from another perspective that question becomes: why should disabled people be 'grateful' for anything less than full equality?
Should we be 'grateful' for being second class citizens? It's better than being a third class citizen, but it isn't good enough. Anything that suggests we should be 'grateful' for less than full equality suggests that we don't have an absolute right to our ultimate goal, that we should tug our forelocks in grateful acknowledgement of the privilege society is condescending to give us.
That might seem harsh to your perceptions, but if you look long and hard enough at what is really going on, where we are and where we should be, then isn't it in fact the only positive way of looking at it? -- 'I'm being discriminated against and I'm not going to take it'
>> as for the point about people not being able to help their behaviour because of MH issues, i accept that is a problem. <<
Remember that the thread started out talking about 'self pity' in particular. You can't make someone with clinical depression be positive about their situation, their brain won't go there, it isn't currently wired to be able to do that. To suggest that they are in some way 'wrong' for that is akin to criticising a paraplegic for not being able to tap dance, or criticising me for being in pain all of the time. It's not a case of excusing behaviour, but of recognising something as being as fundamental a part of their disability as a missing limb is to an amputee or a non-neurotypical worldview is to someone from the neurodiverse spectrum.This is a reply to this message.
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But from another perspective that question becomes: why should disabled people be 'grateful' for anything less than full equality?
David,
i do understand your point, but isn't it a little like looking at a half full glass rather than one which is half empty? this is kind of getting in to the other debate about people who are worse off isn't it. but just because i might feel the need to stand up for being discriminated against, just because i don't want shared surfaces on roads, does that really mean i can't be thankful for my dog? my bennifits, for example.
You can't make someone with clinical depression be positive about their situation, their brain won't go there, it isn't currently wired to be able to do that. To suggest that they are in some way 'wrong' for that is akin to criticising a paraplegic for not being able to tap dance,
oh, i fully appreciate that, and i haven't and wouldn't critesise , suggest that someone with MH problems is to blame for not being able to be posetive, that's why i made a point of saying we should be sympathetic and supportive, but i do believe that if someone is being rude to another person, and they can't help it because of an MH condition, they still should be encouraged to see why it's wrong, . i'm saying this as a posetive solution for the person with the issues, not just for those on the recieving end of someone's bad behaviour, i'm suggesting helping not disregarding MH problems, i'd never do that!
HThis is a reply to this message.
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Blind optimists ignore reality and can be downright dangerous because they don't think about risks at all. They can also be nauseating.
Realists see the world as it is. Is a glass half full or is it half empty? Neither and both!
Blind pessimists see all the bad in the world and are fatalistic. 'What's the point in trying? I'll fail anyway.'
Of course there's a continuum between the 2 extremes.
Research shows that optimists keep trying at things until they succeed, whereas pessimists give up trying and are significantly less likely to succeed. A research article looks at this: 'The Spirited, Observant, and the Disheartened: Social Concepts of Optimism, Realism and Pessimism': kops.ub.uni-konstanz...
In the conclusions, they say "realism may be the most adaptive strategy in the process of goal setting, i.e., when one decides whether a goal is likely to be successful or not.
Fitting one’s goals to the situational demands appeared to be the
strength of the realists. However, once a goal has been defined—
implying that it is attainable—optimistic behavior seems superior to
realism in terms of the positive feelings experienced and the active,
inspired efforts toward goal attainment. Thus, according to the social understanding, it may be best to start out as a realist and proceed as an optimist if the goal is attainable; however, one should never act as a pessimist."
Barbara Ehrenreich's article actually shows how angry she got at all the blind optimism she was seeing/hearing and that helped her fight her cancer rather than just giving up, which is what would have happened if she had been depressed. A fighting spirit has been shown to improve your chance of beating cancer.
Other discussions on optimism, realism and pessimism can be found at: 'Better Boss: Optimist or Pessimist' forums.wsj.com/viewt... and 'Optimism vs. Pessimism: Happiness lies in the middle' www.queendom.com/art...
I am definitely no Pollyanna, but getting something off your chest or describing how difficult something is, can be done without moaning or whinging or going on and on.This is a reply to this message.
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Rosie
Well I have never tried to imply that i am not self pitying myself, pehaps I am, perhaps I'm not..... so I dont think its neccesary to focus on my thread asking about a legal issue with my rent. This has nothing to do with this conversation, and I dont really know why you brought it up. I know you cant get over my critical analysis of you in another discussion, but is it ok if we set aside our differeneces right now becuase me and you are not the only two people talking here..
ThanksThis is a reply to this message.
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This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way.
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This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way.
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Just for information, the above post is mine, but I have self-reported it to remove some of the details in order to not shame the post above the post above me, if it's hidden, then I appologise. :>
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>> i do understand your point, but isn't it a little like looking at a half full glass rather than one which is half empty? <<
If you are being treated as a second class citizen, then is it at all appropriate to try and cast it in a good light? People naturally fall into glass half-full/glass half-empty types, I'm naturally glass half-full, but sometimes the nature of the situation has to transcend your natural inclinations.This is a reply to this message.
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Miss lilac,
"blind optimist?" yep, that's deffinetly me! i like that,
perhaps i should have it as my nickname! 
seriously though, i do agree there should be some middle ground. optimism is good, and isn't necesarily the same as sticking our heads in the sand, it's just another way of approaching life, we can be optimistic and realistic at the same time, that's why the glass is "half" full!
HThis is a reply to this message.
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>> i do understand your point, but isn't it a little like looking at a half full glass rather than one which is half empty? <<
If you are being treated as a second class citizen, then is it at all appropriate to try and cast it in a good light? People naturally fall into glass half-full/glass half-empty types, I'm naturally glass half-full, but sometimes the nature of the situation has to transcend your natural inclinations.
LOL... what a lovely idea... transcending your inclinations!
I have to say, that contrary to the views of many, I have always been optimistic - but that half full attitude has been beaten over many years into a far more pragmatic view!
If I'm asked about the glass I will explain that the capacity of the glass has been utilised by 50% and also 50% of the glass's capacity has been utilised the opposite way.
It still brings demands for it to be either half full or half empty. Folks seem to demand black and white and when they get a description that does not meet their demands - well you are just daft and stupid and have no idea of reality.
Bugger the glass I say - it just complicates the issue and makes it easier to apply a label and demean the person who can see that the world and reality don't fit into a Pint Pot.. or an even smaller vessel!
The only use I have seen for that glass is to measure the brain capacity of some - and they don't even meet what you would get from the most inaccurate of optics!This is a reply to this message.
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Bugger the glass I say - it just complicates the issue and makes it easier to apply a label and demean the person who can see that the world and reality don't fit into a Pint Pot.. or an even smaller vessel
P.C
the use of the "glass" idea, was just a means to make a point, i suppose it depends on how you interpret it, but it shouldn't have to cloud our judgement, or demean anybody, your idea of
the capacity of the glass has been utilised by 50% and also 50% of the glass's capacity has been utilised the opposite way.
is interesting also. just because we may have different ways of looking at things, or descriptions to make our point, doesn't always have to mean that we aren't in agreement on the end result/conclusion! as i have said before, i certainly don't believe that having an optimistic attitude makes me ignorent to the things that need improvement.
If you are being treated as a second class citizen, then is it at all appropriate to try and cast it in a good light?
David,
can't we be optimistic and still fight for improvement, and if we can't see some things in a posetive light, still approach them in a posetive frame of mind?
what i'm trying to say is it's about attitude not what we have versis what we don't.
HThis is a reply to this message.
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>>can't we be optimistic and still fight for improvement, and if we can't see some things in a posetive light, still approach them in a posetive frame of mind? <<
Isn't demanding full equality and fighting for it the only positive thing to do? Isn't doing anything else simply knuckling under to a discriminatory system?This is a reply to this message.
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can't we be optimistic and still fight for improvement, and if we can't see some things in a posetive light, still approach them in a positive frame of mind?
I love the underlying assumption that folks who don't agree with you have to be approaching things from a negative mind set!
That is just bias built upon your perspective. It's yours, so please don't foist it upon others.
As for the Glass... why do some folks not see that the glass limits the discussion and it's interpretation?
Thinking Outside of the Box is the best way - and the glass is just a box made from Vitreous Silica!
I would love to see you doing the Nine Dot Problem - I can see the reaction on your face when the two best solutions would be shown to you!
I have the moniker Professional Cripple® for a reason - and I use it! It is shocking how often the people who surround the disabled will attempt to exert power and be abusive. Power over what they will provide - even if you know of a better and cheaper option - power over how you are to be perceived and represented, even if you can do a better job yourself and are a actually better qualified - power over how you are supposed to feel and express your emotions, and if you don't do as they expect you are unpredictable, abusive, dangerous and the all time favourite angry and Filled With Self Pity!
Many here have showed how by shear bloody mindedness, persistence, perspiration, exasperation, using the law, rational argument, logic and a good dollop of good old fashioned common sense they have finally been able to acquire a Tap Turner! If that aint PMA and a lack of self pity in the face of adversity, I'd love to hear what you would call it?
Then having broken down that lot they try for a loo seat.. and you never know where that could lead....
You are preaching to the converted when it comes to having that Lovely TLA (Three Letter Acronym) PMA - Positive Mental Attitude.
It's quote something to be using your PMA to address the DDA and the DED with the CE and getting no where fast. Sometimes that Jargon just don't serve a valid purpose.
It is hard to convey exactly how sharp, precise and cutting my tongue can be when I'm met with such attitudes and conduct! Those who have had to deal with the consequences have never forgotten it! I'm known for being silver tongued - sometimes it's liquid and ever so beguiling, and then it can harden and become so sharp I don't need to shave for a month!
I will suffer fools until I'm blue in the face, but sometimes the only compassionate thing to do with a fool is frighten the BeJesus out of them and teach them a lesson they will never forget. It's for their own good after all... they can't be allowed out unsupervised when they have no PMA and represent a hazard to their own well being and the well being of others.
I am very positive when dealing with people and I also warn them not to go digging holes for themselves as I own the JCB. I have a Paddy background and I know all about JCBs and Hole digging.
If, of course, they wish to Dig Very Large Holes, I do them the courtesy of removing the keys to the JCB, so they can't be made any bigger. As I tell them, until the rental on the JCB is paid for I will not allow them to dig any further holes.
If at this point if they demand that the hole has extreme value to them, that is there bag. They are asked to get out of the whole - see the whole for the void that it is, the absence rather than the presence that it represents ... and if they still insist on the value of the hole, I use the JCB to Bury the Buggers... if required citing their own health and safety policy and how the hole it is a Tripping Hazard and just has to go!
Then they get the bill for the unauthorised use of the JCB!
Who there has the lack of a bit of PMA and even a few problems solving skills?
It is quite shocking how some will use the glass to hold 50% of the reprehensible and just ignore all the possibilities that are outside of the glass.
The Japanese have the Ink view. If you put a drop of ink into a Glass of Water, the water becomes black. If you pour the glass of water into a bucket, the contents of the bucket becomes black. Now if you pour the bucket into a lake - suddenly the water in the lake has the ability to stay clear, in spite of the ink! All you have is a glass and you don't see the lake and all it's possibilities. The ink is still there but it's effect is negligible. Best of all the lake is just the lake and never half full or empty. It's beyond the limits and a far better place to be!
I say Bugger the Glass for a reason - and having enough vision to believe that it's possible to loose a drop of ink in a lake takes a lot of TLAs and associated bits and bobs!
Of course, so many always think of the Glass as being clear and see through. You will have to forgive me and many others if from long, hard bitter experience and excessive use of TLAs we know that the glass is usually, if not invariably, made from something far less penetrable.
Bugger the Glass and Look at the lake... of course the problem tends to be that when folks highlight that they still have not gotten to the lake to thrown that glass in it... well that's just Self Pity and Whinging.
You just can't please some folks no matter what you do!This is a reply to this message.
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In answer to David in msg 65:
I'm doing my best! I spoke about the issue at an occcupational therapy conference and had a lot of positive feedback which was encouraging.
I'm now trying to write up my presentation for our local NHS newsletter and for a service user magazine - I just need an injection of energy to do this.
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