Home > Interviews > Assisted suicide: for and against
Assisted suicide: for and against
17th November 2008
The difficult subject of disability and assisted dying is often debated in the media, but on Monday 17th November, Victoria Derbyshire's phone-in on Radio 5 Live took us one step further into the discomfort zone. Listen again to the debate.
Some disabled people are happy with who they are and what they can do, others aren't - for many varied reasons. Enter Liz Carr and Noel Martin.
Liz, 36, was disabled in childhood, is a comedian and broadcaster, and is well known to Ouch readers. She lives independently, has attended many a demo to fight for disability rights, and believes that she has a rich and fulfilling life.
Liz, 36, was disabled in childhood, is a comedian and broadcaster, and is well known to Ouch readers. She lives independently, has attended many a demo to fight for disability rights, and believes that she has a rich and fulfilling life.
Noel Martin, 49, was paralysed 12 years ago in a vicious neo-Nazi attack. He has signed up to Dignitas in Switzerland, and intends to take the assisted dying option soon, saying that he has no quality of life.
Here we give you the opportunity to listen once again to the programme. 5 Live took Liz to meet Noel in his home in Birmingham. After a four-minute chat between the two, we return to the studio where Liz and Noel take questions from listeners who called in and texted the show.
Here we give you the opportunity to listen once again to the programme. 5 Live took Liz to meet Noel in his home in Birmingham. After a four-minute chat between the two, we return to the studio where Liz and Noel take questions from listeners who called in and texted the show.
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Usual ham-fisted attempt by Five Live's Derbyshire at a serious subject, handled in her usual elephant-with-hobnail-boots style. She just perpetuates the Medical Model approach by trying to get Liz to engage in a game of "My Impairment's Worse Than Yours". Good on her for resisting. How can we expect non-disabled people to engage with the real issues facing us if they only want to listen to the side they're comfortable with?
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From what i read of the transcript, and i didnt read it all. Noel sounds very much as i did when i first became disabled. up to the age of 18 i lived my life the way i always thought and then it was suddenly taken away. He sounds incredibly depressed, and if the people in Switzerland do their psych tests properly he will not be accepted. Im now 22 and isuppose i have sorted my life out relitivly quickly, i have to rely on people to help me live my life. I have daily (2-3) seizures a day, and am paralysed from my chest/waist down and spend alot of time in bed alone, but ive got a bit of fight in me. My parents said the least helpful thing at the time "pull yourself together" but maybe it has toughend me up. I go to college and see people everyday much worse of than i am and not in a disabled way. We have one life and its pretty short anyway, its very sad noel feels this way about himself, but not that we should ever argue who is worse than who but he could really pull his life around.
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Just to point out this issue is also being discussed on the Ouch "Talk" message board here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbouch/F2322273?thread=6085090
This is my personal take on the issue from that debate so far:
I believe the right to chose to die should not be denied to anyone simply because one is not capable of exercising that right the way any other non disabled person can.
One observation I would add is it is also important to draw a distinction between this debate and that surrounding abortion, given I notice some are using the term "Pro Life" to describe their position on this issue in the various media reports.
I'm not saying it is wrong to use that term, but simply highlighting that the link this creates to that debate are problematic at best.
With abortion we are talking about people effectively making a choice for another, in the form of the unborn baby, as well as for themselves as the mother.
In this case we are looking at the situation where an individual is able to express their own wishes and is only seeking to have control over their own life.
The closest I have come to carrying out the "other" option in the debate was when placed in the position of having to effectively speak for my Uncle who was by that stage completely unable to ask to be "released".
OK I know that using a term like "released" will be seen by some as a cop out, but for me it was the reality of the option when I viewed his situation trying to see it and feel it through his mind and eyes rather than my own.
Peter aka "Sociable"
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I was so angry after listening to the interview, I felt I could not comment properly. Several days later I find my thoughts the same - I know people like Noel and disability isn't their problem. I do not believe he was happy before his injury and I do not think he will stop being totally invested in complaining now. He more than feels sorry for himself, I think he revels in it.
I feel the urge to describe friends with varying disabilities and how they live life with a vengeance but that is again comparing disabilities. This will sound harsh but I'm saying straight out - the guy is a time suck. He will insist on finishing his thoughts while finding flaw in every good idea given him. He will do this forever. For him the sky is too blue and candy too sweet. I don't want him to die and I do hope he'll feel much better, I just won't count on it.
It's not about the disability it's about being able to see what's possible and that comes from meeting other disabled people who show you how you can have what you want and even get things you didn't know you wanted. This guy is more than depressed, he's feeling sorry for himself and pleased about it. When I think about the things friends (and myself) have overcome, it makes me very angry that this man is giving up and can't wait to tell people about it.
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Why do people seem to think they have the right to dictate what makes life worthwhile for other people? We often hold on to loved ones because we are selfish and We don't want to miss them or We don't want to be upset or We, We, We... What about Them, Them ,Them? Many people die long slow horrible deaths which in many cases could be helped. And then there are situations like this.
How dare all of you who pass judgement on Noel's interpretation of his "quality of life" and his decision to pass peacefully. Don't you understand that his ability to function normally in this world was taken from him, at no fault of his own, in no act of God, or even in a tragic accident, but in a terrible and brutal attack.
This is the one area in which he truly has control. Why would you deny him his peace. Shame on You! All of You!
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It seems to me it's a question of perspective, in that the problem with advocating assisted suicide is that a lot of people lack perspective when they acquire a new disability. When bad things happen to people, they say "at least I've got my health", but when they don't have their health anymore they might be inclined (or encouraged) to jump off a bridge instead of finding a new "at least". But that's a social and personal problem, and if somebody doesn't think their life is worth living, that's up to them, you know? For my part, I can't condone telling people what their life is worth to them, and that goes both ways. I think it's horrible that people are constantly told that if they're disabled they won't have anything to live for, but at the same time, if somebody can't find something to live for, I have a hard time convincing myself that they should be condemned for opting out.
Assisted suicide is a little different because it would be really easy to inject pressure into that situation. Your "assistant"'s views on your disability could be the reason for the suicide. Still, if there were some kind of psych eval and legal procedure, making as sure as you can that the person was requesting suicide assistance of their own accord, in some circumstances (such as painful terminal illness) I wouldn't feel qualified to tell people not to do it.
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It seems to me it's a question of perspective, in that the problem with advocating assisted suicide is that a lot of people lack perspective when they acquire a new disability. When bad things happen to people, they say "at least I've got my health", but when they don't have their health anymore they might be inclined (or encouraged) to jump off a bridge instead of finding a new "at least". But that's a social and personal problem, and if somebody doesn't think their life is worth living, that's up to them, you know? For my part, I can't condone telling people what their life is worth to them, and that goes both ways. I think it's horrible that people are constantly told that if they're disabled they won't have anything to live for, but at the same time, if somebody can't find something to live for, I have a hard time convincing myself that they should be condemned for opting out.
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I have read a few of the comments on both sides of this debate and feel strongly in the end it is a personal choice. That said, as I become increasingly disabled through MS one of the hardest things to cope with is the impact on my mental health from trying to manage loss and the challenge to my connection to other people and a sense of myself which was informed by my physical experience of the world. I wish I felt a confidence that I would be fully supported in getting to grips with this as things progress and that enough resources are being put in to supporting people to have something to live for in difficult circumstances. I don't feel this is the case at the moment, as a society we don't look after our old and sick very well and in the current economic and social climate I think it could get worse.
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Today on the Youreable site there is a thread in, I think, the news board. It links to two news items. It is headed "Be afraid, be very afraid". After looking at the items, I am.
One is a doctor who breezed into a ward, noticed a patient whose quality of life was due for discussion at a forthcoming family meeting with his colleagues. He decided to preempt this, by superimposing his own decision to kill the patient by switching off the life support.
The other was a patient who was being forced to die a torture death by withdrawal of food and water. Her daughter foughtdesperately hard and managed to get the killing stopped, but it seems this practice of torturing to death on one consultant's whim is commonplace, without a 'living will' and without consultation with relatives.
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