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 ON THE RECORD
                                JOHN PRESCOTT INTERVIEW 			 

                           
 
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC ONE                          DATE:   4.7.99

....................................................................................

JOHN HUMPHRYS:				Mr Prescott, that's the allegation 
then, too many words and not enough action.

JOHN PRESCOTT:				Well I think first of all to recognise 
as your film does, the real problem I inherited.  That is, the growth of the motor 
vehicle is growing at such a rate, far greater than the actual..outstripping road 
building, so for example, when the Tories came in there were sixty cars per mile, 
now it's about a hundred cars per mile.  Six million new cars in twenty years, that 
means two-thousand miles of motorway, three times as many cars to put on them, absolutely 
stupid.   It's a congestion problem, bad for the economy, twenty-billion pounds, 
bad for the health of our own citizens from the air problems and quality, bad for 
the motorist because he is getting slower times and basically getting more pollution 
into the vehicle. 

						So I've got to make a fundamental 
change and that fundamental change means changes in attitudes about the way we do 
things and it means providing choice.  I have got to be able to persuade people to 
use their cars less and to use public transport more, by improving the quality of 
choice and to be fair the last Tory administration after twenty years saw that it 
was collapsing, and their last Green Paper, they didn't produce a White one, White 
Paper, said that they were now going to have to do something about improving public 
transport and at the same time probably consider congestion charging. So they were 
being forced by the analysis of what I am faced with, so the priority for me is to 
get long term decision making that is first of all, merge the two departments, Transport 
and Environment, it isn't just a Transport problem, it's how you do the Planning, 
how we do Housing, how we deal with Environment.  

						Secondly, a White Paper, the first 
one produced in twenty years and a number of papers that followed from it, and then 
to begin to make the changes in the railway industry, the bus industry, our roads, 
and make a different set of priorities to deal with this very real problem because 
we cannot, make no mistake about it, build our way out of this problem as the last 
twenty years have shown, and even if you could John, the environmental damage from 
the exhaust gas emissions poisoning our city centres and even increasing the pollution 
in the cars means that it is an anti-motorist policy to pursue and to do nothing. 
 To do nothing is not an option.

HUMPHRYS:					So, you've got to get us out of 
our cars and onto public transport.

PRESCOTT:					To use the .......

HUMPHRYS:					......the problem with that.....can 
I put the problem ........

PRESCOTT:					Sorry, John

HUMPHRYS:					.....the problem with that is that 
most people seem to think that public transport is getting worse rather than better.

PRESCOTT:					Yes, and I think that's a perception 
that's widely shared by lots of people, makes my job all the more difficult if you 
like.  First of all, I don't like the language like Paul says 'get out, force them 
to get out to their cars'. I want to provide a real choice and there is evidence 
where we get real choices, the motorists are making that.  Can I point out to Brighton, 
or Leeds or areas, a number of cities, Manchester, where we are seeing, when we have 
given priority to the buses and priority lanes, down in Brighton, in Leeds, we've 
seen increases in the use and ridership of buses between twenty-five and fifty per 
cent.  Leeds is another example.  That is, motorists making the choice to go and 
use public transport that is reliable, of good quality, affordable, and don't forget 
either, a third of our people don't have cars so from a social justice point of view 
as well, so it is working.  Where we find the good examples of giving the priority, 
improving the quality, motorists are making that choice.

HUMPHRYS:					Let's look at the railways then. 
 Now, obviously they have got to get better.  You're not satisfied, nobody is satisfied 
with the state of the railways.  We have been promised a strategic rail authority 
for a very long time, it was one of the promises when you were in Opposition.  It's 
taken more than two years.  It can only deliver, we still haven't got a proper one 
yet, only a shadow one, it can only deliver the improvements that everybody wants 
it to deliver, if it can make Railtrack and the companies invest more money.  That's 
the reality, isn't it.

PRESCOTT:					Yes, and have powers to make them 
do so.  I think that's quite important because the Regulator told me, the old Regulator 
that he didn't have the powers to enforce Railtrack to carry out their promises. 
 The new, the old franchise director told me he had similar problems.  So I had to 
have a piece of legislation, known as the Strategic Rail Authority, to bring that 
in to give them the powers to be able to have a Strategic Authority that took the 
interest of the passengers, and the National interest, looked at the Network as a 
whole, which had been broken up under privatisation and had powers to enforce those 
standards.  Now that was our conclusion and I can tell you that in fact this Bill 
will now shortly be with us, certainly before the Summer, in  a matter of days, rather 
than weeks.

HUMPHRYS:					So that is coming this week?

PRESCOTT:					That is coming, as I said, days 
rather than weeks.   I have to go through certain procedures and as you know in the 
House of Commons now we have different ways of dealing with legislation, everybody 
said they wanted this piece of legislation, the Select Committee under the Chairmanship 
of Gwyneth Dunwoody make it clear that they were all united for this piece of legislation. 
I will now provide them with an opportunity to assist me in the process of getting 
it implemented.  But don't forget, the Strategic Rail Authority under the Chairman 
that I am appointing, Alastair Morton is already been working on these plans under 
the Shadow one that I established in April.

HUMPHRYS:					But you say it will have to have 
powers to make the Railtrack and train operating companies invest more.  

PRESCOTT:					Yes.

HUMPHRYS:					How can you do that, they are private 
companies.  How are you going to make them, because they will say, look, our subsidies 
are not going up, they are coming down.  How are you going to make them invest more?

PRESCOTT					But they have an obligation.  The 
subsidy doesn't actually go to them, it goes to the top, the rail operators themselves, 
but that means that we're putting one point three billion pounds subsidy into this 
industry.

HUMPHRYS:					And reducing.

PRESCOTT:					Yes, and reducing as agreed under 
the previous administration, though as you know I've now started the re-negotiations 
and I've instructed the new franchise director to start the new negotiations and 
the Strategic Rail Authority to get a better deal for the public.

HUMPHRYS:					So there might be more, more subsidy?

PRESCOTT:					No, I'm not saying that at all, 
because we have seen a massive increase in the amount of people riding on trains 
now, passengers, something like fourteen per cent according to them.  That's an awful 
lot of more money coming to them.  People point out the profits but I think that's 
an income that could go for investment, so as the chairman of the Strategic Rail 
Authority has said investment, investment, investment.  Interesting point there John. 
 We've known politics for a little time, that the Treasury rules of expenditure are 
usually limited to two years or three	years.   Under a contract you can have 
a long term agreement for investment and if they fail to achieve that, then you can 
fine them with heavy fines and penalties.  Now we are re-negotiating that deal for 
a better deal for the public and also in regard to Railtrack. We have considerable 
powers that are available.  We're now making sure that they're in the bill, that 
even Railtrack which has now said ten million new investment over the next ten years 
or something like that - we need, as the  chairman has said, three times that amount. 
 So there's a real challenge for us, not just to plan to patch up the system at the 
moment, to modernise it for growth because if my plans are successful,  people as 
signs are beginning, will switch from the motor vehicle to the public transport system 
and this Strategic Rail Authority now will have powers with a very powerful regulator 
who I've just appointed now, to make sure the powers that we've got are used and 
I'm sure Railtrack recognise the signals, it's a different game starting from the 
appointment of the regulator tomorrow, and indeed he is in office tomorrow with the 
new objectives that I'll be setting for him will be coming out next week as well, 
so it's a very fundamental change in 
how we make our railways more accountable.

HUMPHRYS:					So, just to be quite clear, no 
more public money, but they must invest more of the profits they make.  Is that what 
you're saying?

PRESCOTT:					Well, they're ......

HUMPHRYS:					...and if they don't invest more, 
then they will be fined......

PRESCOTT:					But they're wanting to invest now, 
they're telling me and they say: can you extend our contracts and we will then give 
you the investment.  That's the argument of the north-eastern line.  It's many of 
the rail companies who are saying:  if you'll extend our franchise period we are 
quite prepared to enter into those investments.  They make no more demands for public 
money.  They see a demand growing that nobody envisaged a few years ago to travel 
on rail.  That's extra income.. Our real problem is now finding sufficient capacities, 
and I've got some announcements to make about that very shortly.  If we can increase 
that capacity they get more money.  It's a similar thing for buses John.  If we increase 
the amount of passengers on buses by priority measures - say six more passengers 
per journey it brings to the industry nearly four hundred million pounds.  Now, we 
are subsidising the bus industry.  Do I have to do that?  Let's put more seats - 
more bums on seats as they say in the industry.  It'll get more income.  What I've 
got to do is choose an order of priority for public transport and convince the electorate 
why I believe it's the best way to do it.

HUMPHRYS:					The trouble with bums on seats 
is the cost of those seats isn't it.  I mean the fares have gone up and they seem 
still to be going up.  What can you do about that? 

PRESCOTT:					Well, again, that's another one 
of the problems of balancing, and indeed it's the perception of things.  If I was 
to say to the motorist that motoring costs today in real terms are exactly the same 
as they are in 1980,  they would probably say: Oh, I'm paying more for the petrol, 
I understand, but other things have gone down and on balance it's the same.  But 
on public transport the fares have gone up.  That's for people who haven't got cars, 
it's discouraged people using it, and what happened was that the Tories were obsessed 
with the ideology of competition so they deregulated the bus industry - not London 
by the way, where curiously enough we saw passengers going up.  The deregulation 
provided more buses at peak times and congested our cities but less people travelling 
on them, and for the first time this year  for fifty odd years we've actually seen 
more people beginning to - an increase of people travelling by bus, because we've 
given a signal - better quality, massive investment now going on the bus industry, 
because we're saying: provide a good service and people will, with that choice, make 
the choice to use the bus more than the car.

HUMPHRYS:					But the big problem in London is 
the Underground isn't it.  I mean as we saw illustrated there it's falling apart 
in all sorts of ways, and the problem is that the subsidy for new investment has 
been cut, it's going to disappear altogether isn't it by April of next year, so it's 
going to get worse..

PRESCOTT:					No, no. What had happened there 
is that I inherited plans by the Tory administration to cut the Underground by three 
hundred million investment in the next two years and I think Mr Young, Sir George 
Young who said that it had enough investment and eventually they hoped to privatise 
it.  Well it takes a lot longer to even privatise than that, so I restored the three 
hundred million, put a billion pounds in for two years, that was a very good investment. 
 Of course for the other year of two thousand I had hoped that I could get the PPP 
in time.

HUMPHRYS:					That's the Public Private Partnership?

PRESCOTT:					The Public Private Partnership 
for which we can get the investment into the industry.  It has taken a little longer...

HUMPHRYS:					It won't be there will it. I mean 
it will not be there..

PRESCOTT:					No,  but I have guaranteed those 
investments.  So I've got to now talk to the Treasury about that one year in which 
we're at fault, and we're...

HUMPHRYS:					Ah, so there might be more money 
there.

PRESCOTT:					Well, yes, I am ....

HUMPHRYS:					You can't get your Public Private 
Partnership going....

PRESCOTT:					..you can't do it by nothing. I'm 
not going to continue.  I inherited an Underground that had one-point billion pounds 
disinvestment.  That's why we've got the problems on the Circle Line, the Northern 
Line.  Nobody put the money into the industry in those twenty years in sufficient 
amounts to deal with those problems, so I have to negotiate that, but I'll tell you 
something I learnt in the two years John.  I've learnt a lot of lessons in the last 
two years as you can expect.  One, if you make a lousy deal you'll pay for it in 
the end and indeed I inherited the Channel Tunnel rail link if  you remember.  They 
wanted a billion pounds more, I refused to give it them, I came in with an innovative 
financing, bond financing actually, agreed with Gordon Brown and the Treasury, saved 
the taxpayer a billion pounds, it's now on time and on delivery and on budget because 
I made sure the quality was in.  Now when I inherited the Underground, the Underground's 
a total mess.  It's going to cost us a billion pound more for a Jubilee line for 
the lousy negotiations done by the previous administration and it's sucking money 
out of the Underground in a contract that really should never have been drawn up 
in the way it was.

HUMPHRYS:					All of which proves that you're 
going to have to put in a lot more of public money in the short term.....

PRESCOTT:					I think what we have now isolated, 
we have now looked at what the real costs are for the Underground, right, you know, 
it's the typical kind of what happens in Britain,  they bid for a contract price 
and then nobody keeps to it, and then they all put the bills in afterwards, it's 
so typical in our industry and so terrible quite frankly, that I have to find now, 
nearly over a billion pounds more for that contracted price.  I now think I have 
identified it.  I have brought an outside contractor in now to make sure I have got 
a tight control of the situation,  but I now know what the costs are, I can ringfence 
that, and keep it there, have an idea of what I need for the Underground without 
it sucking the money out of the Underground system itself into Jubilee Line, and 
you do know, you will be the first one to be telling me if it is not ready on December 
31st.

HUMPHRYS:					Yes, we might get around to that.

PRESCOTT:					That's the trouble with it, mate. 
 No it will be there.

HUMPHRYS:					But the problem with relying on 
private companies to put in investment is that understandably enough, they want a 
return on it, they want a good return on it.   

PRESCOTT:					Yes.

HUMPHRYS:					And they put money in and they 
expect a much higher rate of return than the Treasury if they were lending money 
for instance.

PRESCOTT:					Yes.

HUMPHRYS:					Now, how do they get it back.  
They get it back by pushing fares up don't they.  And we will see fewer people using 
the Underground. 

PRESCOTT:					Well, no, they can get it a number 
of ways, I mean, we certainly......

HUMPHRYS:					That's one of the ways though isn't 
it.

PRESCOTT:					That certainly could be one of 
the ways, but that's not the way, not the way we are negotiating at the moment.  
You could get more efficiency and productivity out of your capital and labour.   
You know, the Treasury, when it cuts back money every one, two years, you could never 
put the long term investment, because, even whatever monies you have got, you are 
not sure they are going to be there the second or the third year.  So the productivity 
and capital, when you talk about twenty odd plus years of agreement is one way you 
get saved costs, more efficient utilisation and running of the railway system I believe 
is a consideration...

HUMPHRYS:					..heard that before, I mean   

PRESCOTT:					Well, OK, but I mean you might 
say that has operated on the system and it may not have delivered.  I think you have 
to make a judgement then about that.  As for the rates of return, I mean on the Channel 
Tunnel Rail Link, I thought some of the rates of return were far too high.  I've 
sold the bus industry.  You know, if we are creating a market for you by pushing 
traffic over to you and asking the people to use public transport more, and you earn 
money, don't start lifting up your expectations of profits, why shouldn't I start 
saying, you've got a guaranteed market, it's not a great deal of risk, why should 
you be getting a really high rate of return.

HUMPHRYS:					But you can't guarantee that fares 
aren't going to go up on the Underground can you, under this new system.

PRESCOTT:					Well of course we had the inflation 
plus one anyway, it was going up before, before.......

HUMPHRYS:					Yes but I mean beyond that, because 
we have seen what happened  on the Railways.

PRESCOTT:					But don't forget John, the real 
problem on the Underground now, is say, twenty years ago when they were talking about 
Ken Livingstone and the GLC and they were talking about cutting prices and more people 
travelled - they did -  now you can't get on it, even whatever the price is, and 
as Alastair Morton the Chairman of the Strategic Rail Authorities made clear, the 
issue is investment, investment, investment.
Otherwise we continue to get the Circle Line, the Underground, built a hundred-and-thirty 
years ago, they want long term stability.  I want that, and that is what my plans 
are about.

HUMPHRYS:					You have got to get us out of our 
cars, that's what all of this is about.

PRESCOTT:					By choice.

HUMPHRYS:					You didn't....well, let's look 
at that question of choice.  You didn't like Paul Wilenius' use of the word force, 
but you heard what the...

PRESCOTT:					Well, I can't, because there is 
no legislation saying you car drivers get out of your cars.

HUMPHRYS:					But there are ways you can make 
it happen aren't there?  And the Select Committee, the Select Committee talked about 
there having to be powerful disincentives and by that, they mean more powerful disincentives 
than there are now.  We've pushed up the price of petrol and various other things, 
but more powerful disincentives than we have at the moment and we are seeing virtually 
no action on it.

PRESCOTT:					But wait a minute, I told you earlier 
on, if you go down to Brighton, if you go to Leeds........

HUMPHRYS:					....that's a couple of pilots, 
yeah .....

PRESCOTT:					Well, I mean they are working, 
they are not just pilots, they are part of their transport scene. That's why I am 
providing eight hundred million pounds for what I call Local Transport Plans.  To 
look at how you can give the priority to the public transport system, after all, 
it is in the cities where the majority of the congestion is and we want to deal with 
this problem, and in those circumstances, when you do that, when it becomes more 
reliable, when it's better quality, we begin to find, people make the choice.  I 
don't have to force them, if you go into the Metro in Manchester, what makes the 
car driver get on the Metro now is they have been clever enough to actually combine 
the two, surface railway with one going through the centre of the city.  And motorists 
tell you and I travel on them and talk to them, they say, ah now, I can go into the 
centre of the city, I don't have to worry about car parking, and by the way, there 
is already car parking charges of a considerable amount, and I can get into the city 
and it's reliable.  They make the choice.  I don't force them.  There's not even 
powerful disincentives, it's more convenient because we have made a priority about 
public transport.

HUMPHRYS:					But I can remember you earlier 
on in your reign being very touch on the motorists and saying things like you know, 
there are going to be some hard decisions to take.  It sounds a little now as though 
you are saying, we can coax them, we can offer them a few things they want and we 
won't actually have to apply any pressure.  It sounds as if you are backing off.

PRESCOTT:					No, no.  I said there are difficult 
decisions to make and I am prepared to make and my White Paper made that clear.  
But it doesn't mean I come along and say to you, get out of your car, the bus is 
coming here.  What I have got to deal with is get them to change, not easy, I mean 
when people's perception of what it is happening in Transport, many of the journalists 
just follow the cutting system and continue to say some of the things that aren't 
quite right.  And then you've got that, what is it, Clarkson broomm broomm, saying 
I've got to have my car because you can't carry a fridge on the bus when you buy 
one.  I mean it is that kind of nutty thinking that influences a great deal of the 
talk at the present stage.  What I have got to do is to say to people, look, here's 
a choice, take the M4.  All the fuss about the M4........

HUMPHRYS:					......but  the Prime Minister didn't 
like that, the bus lane .........

PRESCOTT:					...well, you know it was a filter 
lane, it was only a filter lane because people used to dash down there to filter 
in because it was a three-lane joining to a two-lane.  But even when we manage it 
properly, the cars are coming quicker, curiously enough.....

HUMPHRYS:					You'd better be telling Tony Blair 
all this, not me...

PRESCOTT;					........hang on, go slower, and 
you can get there quicker, you know, it's against the public's perception when you 
think about it, but it means our buses now and taxis get in sixteen minutes earlier, 
cars are getting there better, than a lesser.....

HUMPHRYS:					So Tony Blair would like to see 
more of them would he? 

PRESCOTT:					....hang on, and there are less 
accidents - just address yourself to the point.  And if you look at those, that has 
been quite successful, they are pilots, we look how they work, there is one to Heathrow, 
been going for twelve months, it's cut accidents by twenty per cent.  Shouldn't we 
be taking those into account?

HUMPHRYS:					o are we going to get more of them 
and are have you got Tony Blair's approval for more of them.

PRESCOTT:					Well we'll look at the pilot.  
I have told the Highways Agency, you are not just a builder of roads now, I want 
you to manage it better, and I want you to manage it better for the motorist.   Let's 
have more.  I've set them targets now for setting up more variable message systems, 
so people can know where they are, how they can get from point A to B, giving them 
more information and guidance.  I want to improve it more the motorist, that's why 
I've switched a lot more money actually into by-passes and into maintenance because 
I think that's what people want to do, but the thrust of our policy must be to offer 
the motorist a greater choice in public transport.  It would be better for the environment, 
better for the economy.

HUMPHRYS:					As you say.

PRESCOTT:					..better for young kids that have 
to go through all the congestion we get in our cities, and I'll tell you what John, 
there was a man told us in the 1960s, Professor Buchanan, he said: if you allow the 
cars to expand the way they are at the moment they will clog up your cities, create 
the environment.  His predictions came right, and if you go to motorway cities like 
Birmingham and Leeds as indeed Los Angeles they're turning away and providing better 
public transport systems...

HUMPHRYS:					Right. So....

PRESCOTT:					... and that's at the heart of 
our policy.

HUMPHRYS:					So you are going to go ahead then 
with things. It appears that you've abandoned the idea for taxes on out of town supermarket 
parking and that kind of thing, those mega-store things.  Are you going to go ahead 
with.....

PRESCOTT:					Why don't you credit us with actually 
hypothecation and congestion charges.  You kept telling me constantly that I wouldn't 
get it.  Hey John, you used to tell me:  you'll not get it ........

HUMPHRYS;					You didn't think you'd get it either, 
but you've only got it for a few pilots.

PRESCOTT:					Come on, come on, that's nonsense.

HUMPHRYS:					Alright, are you going to get it 
throughout the country?

PRESCOTT:					I'll let you into a secret...

HUMPHRYS:					...because every council in the 
land....

PRESCOTT:					.. it's just gone through parliament.

HUMPHRYS:					I know, for a couple of pilots.

PRESCOTT:					No, no, it's gone through parliament 
for London, wait a minute .....any local authority that wishes to apply, because 
it's voluntary, I'm not going to force them, and want to use the congestion charges, 
to make that switch, and indeed the motorists apparently by all the surveys, at least 
the RAC one, fifty-seven per cent said: provided you actually put that into public 
transport and give us a choice then we are very happy with that principle.  I've 
got in the London Bill despite you guys telling me I wouldn't get it, I'll get it 
in the next Transport Bill,  we'll must wait to see what happens on the Queen's speech. 
 Those new monies will be available and used to improve our public transport, that 
is the most radical proposal that has ever come up from anywhere, and agreed with 
Gordon Brown by the way in agreement with a colleague who sees the need to make the 
change.  Now give us the credit for what we're doing.

HUMPHRYS:					So, as we approach the General 
Election the government, Tony Blair, is going to be perfectly happy to see the motorists 
who are pretty upset already as we've established, facing considerably more charges 
on all sorts of things, congestion charging and the rest of it, and getting even 
more fed up than they are at the moment.  He's going to be perfectly happy with that?

PRESCOTT:					Well, I hear you saying that, but 
I hear the polls that are telling me also, presumably they mean something.  First 
the polls tell us that we're the best, than the Tories on transport policy..(INTERRUPTION),. 
But the motorists polls say: if you actually are quite prepared to use that money 
for that purpose, but don't forget John, I expect the local authorities to produce 
a transport plan with this requirement if that's what they want.  They have to discuss 
it with their local community, they have to agree it with me, and I  have to make 
sure the money is going into public transport, it's not going anywhere else, it's 
going to improve choice, now I shouldn't be... and choice for the motorist, and choice 
is already being used in the towns I've been mentioning, and if it's up to the local 
authorities, I don't force them, if they want to do it, it's a radical departure 
to find the resources, and in the meantime they are paying quite a lot in car parking 
charges at the moment .  It's not as if they don't pay for some congestion in car 
parks.  Look what happens to car park charges in cities now, as they get shorter, 
but we're not going to continue to poison our cities are we.  We want a better environment, 
we want more efficient industry which means less congestion, and this is the way 
to do it. But it's long term and I have to convince you and many others but I've 
started, and I've only been in two years.

HUMPHRYS:					Yes, you've started, you've only 
been in two years as you say.   Two years ago you said you would have failed if there 
were not far fewer people travelling by public transport - far fewer people - sorry 
travelling by car - far more people travelling by public transport.  Glenda Jackson, 
your own Transport Minister said that traffic is going to grow, not decrease the 
way things are going at the moment.

PRESCOTT:					Well, I've just said the same thing, 
I've just said...

HUMPHRYS:					In that case you've failed won't 
you?

PRESCOTT:					No, no.  What I've said is if it 
continues like this, that is what will happen, that's what Glenda said.  Don't rely 
on the cuttings - they've got it wrong again.  But if you take that thirty-seven 
per cent, if you do nothing, our White Paper is about change, and radical change, 
and improving it for the motorist, improving it for the non motorist, and improving 
it for our community.  That's what we're embarked on to do, and make no mistake we're 
putting that argument to the electorate, we have to convince them.  We're a democratic 
party, we're a democratic country, we must convince people of this case.  I believe 
they want to give a fair hearing for it.  That's what I intend to give them, and 
I intend to make those changes.

HUMPHRYS:					No rowing back at all?

PRESCOTT:					Not my style.

HUMPHRYS:					John Prescott, thank you very much 
indeed. 














  					



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