The tram debate - have your say

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See also: Tram archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9

	30-September-2002 Spot the missing stops Following on from the huge success "Spot the difference" the next in the series is about to appear. Watch "Democracy Pole" on Foster Ave and elsewhere. Jim I shall not go into who this councillor was except that he was a Chilwell Councillor who I had never spoken to previously but he had heard of my views and so tried to throw me out of a meeting in an old peoples home. The residents overuled him and I was allowed to stay as long as I said nothing. I then listened to the old people being upset by a load of dubious information. This just resolved me to persevere with the truth. Steve Barber., Beeston

	30-September-2002 StoptheTram I've just split my sides laughing. I would definately suggest that everyone visit http://groups.msn.com/StoptheTram and click on Discussion group as Gerry suggests. These archaeological artefacts are late 20th Century pram wheels and burnt out cars. The national interest is the Quorn Hunt who Nigel proposes will use the railway embankment. The rest is just so ridiculous as to be frankly unbelievable. Got to go just popping down the Lilac Grove tip to find a 20th Century lawnmower! AM, Toton

	30-September-2002 tram reply- concerned of Chilwell Thank you for your contribution to this debate, 'concerned of Chilwell'. I wonder,as no-one seems to be doing anything for you at the moment, what are YOU doing about the tram for yourself? Perhaps you could post some suggestions on this site or on one of the anti tram sites that might help to gel opposition. Concerned of Beeston,

	01-October-2002 Tram – NET are a good team In response to PAS, I can say that I have met some of the NET people and am impressed with the line-up. It seems that you could not get a job with them unless you were well qualified. My general observation with these things is that you would need a masters degree in transport issues for the more senior roles. Unfortunately I only have a masters degree in a related subject so no chance for amateurs like me to be on the team! What is also interesting is that we in Nottingham, and in particular lines two and three, have the experience of other UK tram systems to learn from, so we are likely to get a pretty good system. Its not as if we are pioneers like Sheffield, and the line one experiences should ensure that future lines are done very well indeed. AW, Nottm

	30-September-2002 Croydon Comparisons are Valid The BACIT Spot the Difference poster can be interpreted in many ways. Clearly, a number of the Anti's are rightly saying it is not a fair match between the areas. However, BACIT would rightly argue it demonstrates that the tram doesn't harm trade. However, the much more general comparisons with Croydon are very valid indeed. Trams are quiet, Trams integrate well into the local area, Trams are accessable and popular, Trams do get people out of their cars and reduce congestion. Yes - Croydon, the borough is large with a large population and yes, the town centre is far larger than Beeston but it is not larger than the centre of Nottingham and the system in Croydon is mainly in fairly suburban areas - It is not a city centre tramway. I have driven along NET line 1 and am very knowledgeable on all of Croydon Tramlink. I can assure you that NET line 1 (once off the railway alignment)m travels through much more urban environments than 95% of Croydon Tramlink. Therefore the comparisons between leafy Nottingham suburbs, housing estates and local town centres are valid. Beckenham is a town, I suspect of similar size to Beeston/Chilwell, New Addington is a self contained, ex Council estate. Both have benifited enormously from Tramlink. And the routes connecting them pass through open green spaces, close to residential areas. All are very valid comparisons to Nottingham. Take a look at Croydon! I hope that BACIT prepare further Spot the Difference posters with an emphasis on demonstrating that the tram can fit into a given environment. SJP, West Wickham, Kent

	30-September-2002 dane of clifton dane are you the same dane who works in beeston, if so if we get lines two and three you will be able to commute to work by tram stress free. common sence says you should be a supporter. floating voter, notts

	30-September-2002 Dane Dane What is your point. You have made no comment other that tell people to shut up, AND STOP TRAM SPOTTING. and I thought if someone makes point it is reasonable to ask questions if you are unsure (like if someone says the tram takes 60m to stop what speed is that based on 100KpH 30Kph?). WHAT ARE YOUR ARGUEMENTS WHERE ARE THE FACTS WHATS YOUR POINT OF VIEW JOIN THE DEBATE, PURSUADE ME FLOATING VOTER, NOTTS

	30-September-2002 dane Dane welcome on board. I dont think we have had you join in before. Thanks for the pointless rant they are usually quite entertaining, although in your case I will make the exception. The last rant came from Willo if my memory serves me right, have you come across him. I agree beeston is not like croydon, and a few of the paralles discused do appear from the discussion to be a bit dubious. However the croydon tram will be similar to the Nottingham one, and there are significant links between the nature of some of the areas passed through, the traffic problems, the environmental concerns, the economic situtations all of which outweigh what appear to be the few tenous links, all of which have been explained away if you read the discussion carefully. The Croydon tram has clearly enabled/caused a significant ammount of economic development, so if the same benefits ecru for nottingham and for beeston/chilwell (where you work?) and clifton (where you live) then that can only be a good thing surely. doug, carlton

	30-September-2002 End of the line It is no good some people arguing that all places are different, and asserting we cannot compare Croydon with Nottingham/Beeston - this is too much of an excuse. It is tram opponents who are uninformed, and there are none as blind as those who do not wish to see. When Line One here opens, Hyson Green will have better trade - this shopping area is comparable to Chilwell High Road. And we shall see about the so-called noise and visual impact of the trams at Cinderhill. The very appearance of the trams in the Nottingham streets for trial running from next Spring, will much improve public relations towards the trams. Of course we need more tram routes around Nottingham. Future routes will generate some local opposition at the planning stage, but not amplified by the irrationality and hysterics we have seen in the last year against Lines 2 and 3. G. Bennett, Wilford

	30-September-2002 Pain Dane you sound like someone with toothache but afraid to go to the dentist. The toothache will get worse until you have to go and it will then be agony. That is what the traffic is doing to Beeston. The construction period will not be fun for motoriists, but probably better for the rest of us, and the next 27 years plus will be much better. Leave things as they are and watch us all suffer- chaos every time there is an accident, minor road works etc.. Steve who was this councillor who tried to throw you out? - what had you done to upset him or her? I think it's outrageous that an elected person can act in such an appalling way or are there two sides to this? Jim, Beeston

	30-September-2002 re:qualifications When we are ill we go to the GP who has 5 years+ training and qualifications When we need phsyiotherapy we go to the phsyiotherapist,3 years+ training When we need a tram we got to NET. GIven the enormous task that NET has to undertake and the large amounts of money that are involved is NET made up of people with years of experience and qualification in the public transport industry, please could someone enlighten mefurther beyond what is ginve on their Website? PAS, Nottingham

	30-September-2002 Silly old fools Concerned - Silly Old Fools we are not! If you had bothered to read the entire debate on stopthetram you would find that we are working hard to save our bit of open country from the bulldozers.Archaeologists are interested in the embankment as it contains many items of interest which NET would consign to a skip. You'll find that we have national support to keep this piece of rural England. I urge everyone to visit http://groups.msn.com/StoptheTram and click on Discussion group to find out that over in Compton we are very active. Gerry, Compton Acres

	30-September-2002 Spot the difference Dane - have you been to Croydon since Tramlink was opened? If so you would see a marvellous system which could and will be adapted to suit Beston / Chilwell / Nottingham / Wilford / Clifton's needs. If only you had dusted down your anarok you could have joined us and then been in a much stronger position to argue. The poster is for others to draw their own conclusions. You have drawn yours, Willo drew another one and S. Dee drew another. One point it does make is that trams do not kill commerce. I would like to see a branch to Long Eaton as this will relieve much of the traffic currently using Queens Road which as you pointed out was chaotic last week due to the roadworks. Such a branch would therefore make your car journey to work much simpler. Steve Barber, Beeston

	30-September-2002 Tram – construction the only objection? So from recent postings we can conclude that the only argument against building the extra tram lines is the actual construction itself. Given that the current line one construction has caused barely any disruption at all, this means that arguments against the tram are weak. Even when building through Beeston, disruption is unlikely to be major. Unlike the current works on Station Road, the tram construction will be big enough for a proper management system to be in place. I often observe that the worst traffic jams are caused by small projects, which supposedly aren’t big enough to warrant proper management from the highways authorities and bus operators. During some local road works, buses had to be diverted and as a result of public consultation, an improvement in bus diversions for one of the phases was brought about. I’m not worried about the construction – it at least won’t be like the chaos on the ring road and Hucknall Road, which had no connec! ti! on to the tram! As for Tory nonsense about London, I was recently there for several months. I was astonished at how slow the traffic was. I really feel sorry for Londoners, they have awful lives. Unless we have the tram, it will be like that for us too. AW, Nottm

	29-September-2002 What's going on I hear the tram is now almost certainly going to pass the bottom of our garden. The BCBRA web-site has not been updated for months and the ENT one has nothing new except for a couple of silly old fools ranting on at the discussion group page. Even though I'm strongly opposed to the tram I have to get all my information from the BACIT (pro-tram) site which is at least accurate and well informed. Has all the opposition collapsed? Is there anyone out there left or has the last person already turned off the light? concerned, Chilwell

	28-September-2002 Gridlock You see beeston grinds to a halt when they shut of the lights on station road so just imagine the chaos when they actually come to build the tram. There is no way this level of traffic chaos is worth tollerating. Leave well alone and carry on as we are, and stuff trafic growth. All we really need is a new road to link beeston with the A52 nearer the motorway, and a widened M1. A conservative canverser in the recent chilwell by-election who knocked on my door told me when I asked her about the tram and traffic that in the early 1980s (when she lived in london) the GLC or who ever said London would be gridlocked by the year 2003, and as she pointed out the traffic in London still flows. Tube strike this week, everone got home!!. She pursuaded me with this arguement. Its clear the grief in the short term is not worth all the benifits in the longerterm, no way just see this week. Jeremy Symtheson, beeston

	28-September-2002 Honourable opponents AM - yes I too am surprised that the poster on Foster Ave has not been ripped down. I think it is a credit to all that although we may disagree everyone is acting honourably and allowing the opposition to make their point. I have only come across one example of bad behaviour and that was by a Chilwell Councillor who tried to throw me out of a tram meeting before I had said anything, because of my views. Last night I had a social drink with Mr Wildish (chair BCT) and Mr Williams & I remain on friendly terms. A few years ago I arranged a sponsored walk in Beeston, for a school building project in the Himalayas. My posters were ripped down daily, I don't know if the motive was racial or personal but it just made me more determined and we got the project finished. Steve Barber., Beeston

	28-September-2002 traffic in beeston Jim,do you really live in Beeston?. I ask the question because if you did then you would know that the traffic in Beeston has been made worse in the past week by the road works at the Queens Rd/Station Rd junction. These roadworks have forced drivers into making rat runs through the quieter streets of Beeston. These roadworks have been on- going for less than a week and you are moaning already. How then, will you be able to cope with 2 - 3 years of tram construction, when Beeston's traffic will reach gridlock? What are you waffling on about a wall being built between Beeston and Chilwell, have you totally flipped? I suggest that if you, and people like you, have nothing constructive to add to this debate shut down your P.C and keep your silly thoughts to yourself. I thought this was supposed to be a serious debate on the tram, but all I seem to do is ridicule other peoples stupid and totally unrealistic arguements. Please lets keep this forum serious. Dane, Clifton

	28-September-2002 Tram – local share of cost In response to JC, the city and county have to find 25% of the fixed annual amount paid to the private developers / operators each year for the next 30 years. Being fixed, it’s very convenient and predictable, just as it is for the UK government and their 75% share. That’s the beauty of PFI, no need to raise all the money at the beginning, you simply pay a fixed amount out each year, easy to budget for. And if the operators don’t meet quality standards you reduce the payment! Of course the local authorities have to plan how to raise their 25% of the payment each year but they do have transportation budgets and the workplace charging levy will hopefully be providing some of the cost. NB Cities may also use congestion charging in the future to fund such public transport schemes. Incidentally, don’t forget that a massive chunk of local authority spending (more than half?) actually is rate support grant from the government, so the ultimate impact on counc! il tax is minimal. The benefits of the tram, of course, are immense. AW, Nottm

	28-September-2002 Tram Debate Please,please,please stop trying to compare Beeston & Chilwell to Croydon. What started out as a comparison between Croydon's tram system and the one proposed here has now escalated into a direct comparison between the two areas. BACIT have issued photos of Croydon and Beeston with a "spot the difference" heading.Laughable if it wasn't so serious. Were can I start with the "differences" between Beeston and Croydon? Does not Beeston only have a population of around 20000 compared to Croydon's 350000!!! Beeston is a town on the outskirts of a medium sized city, Croydon is a Borough (with a bigger population than the whole of Nottingham) and is only 10 miles from the centre of one of the world's major cities, and before the war was home to London's main airport.Get real all you sad tramoraks, especially A.W who will not even give her name to support her argument. If you people feel so blighted by not having a tram here in Beeston then why don't you all just move to Croydon, enj! oy your tram and leave us to get on with our lives. I also notice that S.Barber wants to see a branch-line to Long Eaton from Nick Palmer's proposed route. This is in addition to him wanting a branch-line to Nuthall,Kimberley,Ilkeston and anywhere else a branch might fit. Well Steve, there is a P.C program on the market called "Railroad Tycoon". I suggest you buy this program and then you will be able to build branches,spurs and extensions till your heart is content, without harming anyone else's quality of life.I do hope that all of you who went on BACIT's trip of a lifetime to Croydon remembered to take your anoraks with you. I know this letter is a little facetious, but that is the way I see this forum progressing with tit for tatting and stupid remarks made in reply to others more serious concerns(A.W and the floating voter). Dane, Work in Beeston

	28-September-2002 quiet cul de sacs The traffic in Beeston this week has been horrendous. Today I've almost got knocked down by someone driving along the pavement, yesterday a driver told me to f*** off when I told him he shouldn't be on the pavement. Where is a lot of this traffic coming from? answer - Chilwell and people who live in quiet roads and seem to think they have the God given right not to have any intrusion on their lives but those of us in Beeston (including cul de sac dwellers) have to put up with a worsening situation. Sorry but I shall only accept your arguments if a Berlin - type wall is built between the two. Jim, Beeston

	27-September-2002 Spot the Difference Yes Shesphed is not a Public transport orientated community; the reason being that as Shepshed is small and there is not the population base to make it a good public transport network worth while. I would travel by bus to work on the days I do not cycle, but I can not because there is no practical bus service, yet I work in Loughborough, but I do use the new regular service to the station because its quick and cheaper then the car. The new tram system provides a dilemma, when line 1 or 3 opens, do I drive to a tram Park and Ride and get the tram, or do I support the local bus service and get the train. If I drive to a park & ride I might get off before the city centre, eg Chilwell Rd, or other spots on route, however unless the those places has something to offer me, I would unlikely repeat the exercise. If I get the train into the city as a shopper I am not going to get tram to try out other places on the tram route. Stephen Dee, Shesphed

	27-September-2002 Tram transferable tickets Transferable tickets sold on or for the tram are hopefully to be like those used in Tyne and Wear where a single ticket can be used for a journey involving both metro (or ferry) and bus. This allows you to state a particular zone (usually a single district, typically a couple of square km) that you wish to travel to, and you are allowed to travel in the general direction of that destination zone. Only one bus journey ‘sector’ is allowed, the bus driver punching the yellow Paris Metro style cardboard ticket (if the journey started on the metro). In the other direction, starting with a bus journey, obviously that paper bus ticket is only valid on that one bus. You then transfer at the metro station and that ticket is valid for your metro ‘sector’, assuming you asked for the appropriate ‘Transfare’ in the first place. However in Nottingham I hope that a transferable ticket could allow a bus trip / ‘sector’ at both ends of a tram t! rip / ‘sector’ (assuming they are with the same bus company, to get round the silly competition rules). The problem with the one pound City Transport ticket is that it allowed transport in ANY direction for any distance on their buses, as long as any journeys made on it started within an hour of the time of issue. This meant that it could be passed on, despite the fact that it was stated as being non transferable (putting it bluntly, this is a fraud). However there is still a £2 ticket for unlimited day use. That’s a good idea because people won’t want to pass it on because they could still use it. Also most people don’t just make a one directional journey in one day. It is likely that such a day ticket would also exist on the Nottingham tram and usable on the City Transport buses too. I envisage little threat to either of the tickets because one will be expensive enough that people won’t give it away whereas the other offers only just eno! ugh flexibility such that a one directional but multiple ‘sector’ journey on multiple forms of transport can be made. What I can’t understand is why NCT didn’t set up their bus ticketing system so that the passenger could not make journeys involving a return trip on the same bus route as the original trip because, as I understand it, the fiddle people were making was to give or sell their tickets to people boarding the bus when they were getting off at the terminus, usually in the city. The other solution would have been to make the one pound ticket only valid on services in the city centre, e.g. for people transferring to get down to the railway station. A more expensive ticket at say £1.20 would have allowed cross city journeys – in other words, make the transferable ticket more expensive than any conventional single trip tickets. Interestingly, in Sheffield there are tram only weekly passes at only £7 which can be passed round by family membe! rs for any one of them to use! AW, Nottm

	28-September-2002 Trams I have taken the trouble to go to the NET site to look into issues with funding. Here are two quotes from the site from the motion tabled by Councellor Terry Butler who is clearly concerned about costs. 1.“(b) The full financial implications of the proposals going forward in any Transport and Works Act Order including any impact of the NET network for funding to the remainder of the County area “ and 2. “ii) Discussions taking place with DTLR and the City Council to review the extent of local contributions to the Network to be met by the County Council.” These statements to me do not look like there is no impact on our local County Council with the inherent risk to our Council Tax. If the money is coming from a PFI (there were some interesting discussions on Radio 4 last Friday on these and their success/lack of success ) why are the council concerned ? JC, West Bridgford

	27-September-2002 vibrations PAS In Croydon the tram passes very close to the historic alms houses. This is a busy section of line (every 3 minutes, 18 hours a day) and there has been no detrimental effect. The track was laid with a membrane to allow up to 1mm vibration of the concrete supporting mass, as Doug explained. There has been severe subsidence on Middle St due to faulty ancient drains. No 58 was virtually rebuilt (by us) 12 years ago and despite the constant traffic and H.G.V.s there has been no further settlement of the block. Steve Barber, Beeston

	27-September-2002 Posters & prices Sorry I was about to say how surprised I am that the poster on Foster Ave has not been ripped down and that anyone can see the cost of motoring is going to go up. It's the only way that the government can limit car use. No I'm not prepared to start a Toton group, I haven't the time but if someone else starts one I'm good for some money. AM, Toton

	27-September-2002 BCBRA concede A quote from the Nottingham Evening Post 27 Sept 2002; "...the chosen route is the one they are going to go ahead with" - Stephen Willoughby. I take it that this means that they admit the route is going ahead. It's what most people want so democracy rules! Jim, Beeston

	27-September-2002 Town centres Whilst George Street is right in Croydon town centre, Church Street adjacent is more of an offshoot rundown in past years. This bears comparison with the relationship between Chilwell High Road and Beeston town centre, or otherwise Hockley and Nottingham city centre. Even the narrow winding topography of Church street, Croydon, is similar to Hockley. I hope the Lace Market tram stop here revitalises its surroundings. There are luxury appartments and offices being built, with developer contributions to tram works. G. Bennett, Wilford

	27-September-2002 Tram to Long Eaton AM should join www.bacit.org as essentially they are in support of trams to the west of Nottingham. I know that they have been looking at extensions including extracting the best bits from what can only be described as MP Nick Palmer’s ‘wacky’ alternative route to the Chilwell Retail Park area which would help Long Eaton people greatly. The problem is that Long Eaton is administratively in Derbyshire even if postally in Nottingham. However there is no reason why the Chilwell line could be extended from its proposed terminus at Toton Lane (Stapleford south) across the fields and round and down into Long Eaton, near Asda in Midland Street. Another line could go to Bessel Lane, off the Derby Rd in the west of Stapleford (not far from Sandiacre, which is also in Derbyshire). AM, all I can say is, get your Derbyshire county councillors involved! AW, Nottm

	27-September-2002 Tranferable tickets Stephen - what is to stop the ticket being passed on? The day bus ticket in Nottingham has had to be stopped because allegedly too much of this was going on. AM were you about to comment on the poster? I am confused by the title which bears no resemblance to your comment. However, I would be delighted were you to start a Long Eaton/Toton pro tram group. Steve Barber, Beeston

	27-September-2002 Good Vibrations Where the tram is likely to be so close to buildings that vibration may be felt a floating track slab is used. I.e a thick rubber sheet is provided between the base slab and the track slab. Also the rails are coated with a resilient material which also dampens vibrations. There are clauses in the NEt spec belive which limits vibration from the tram to below acceptable levels. House foundations are typically over 600mm down modern house foundation can be over 2 to 3m down. Frequently in and around west Nottingham the foundations are built on concrete rafts. The tram is effectively built on a raft. which is approx 300mm deep. Therefore the stresses from the track slab to the soil are very very small potentially less than from a road vehicle. Thus the change in stress will be minimal. The enegrgy from the eathquake was the same a letting off a large nuclear bomb at depth If I lived in west Nottingham in the trent valley I would be more worried about rising water tables, flooding etc, as the main causes of subsidence of houses is water content and associated volume change of soil (wetting and weakening of peat lenses in the sands) and drying of clays due to trees and inadeqaute depth house foundations. Just to stop other questions the tram will not cause flooding nor other types of biblical Plague, as off road it is porous and on road its the same as before. Doug, notts

	27-September-2002 being pedantic Insider sorry just to be pedantic The car does not slow at the same speed it deceletaes at the same rate (accleration is a second derivative of distance with respect to time). Therefore if you are travelling faster it will take you longer to deceleate at a constant rate therefore you take further to stop. doug, carlton

	27-September-2002 Noise To Doug, the earth tremor the other night was a goood test for the effect of vibration on the housing stock in the Beeston area, and consequently it removed most one of my concerns on vibration. That is the houses are sturdy, but what is the impact of continuous running of a 30 Tonne plus vehicle, every 5 minutes for 18 hrs a day, say within 2-3 M of Greenwood, Sandby or Richmond Court or the hosue along Middle street? I only want to know the facts and ensure that any issue that may be of future relevance is not missed at an early stage. This brings me onto the issue of noise. In our "debates" it must be remembered that the Chilwell-Beeston extension, will run for the good part along a residential route which is currently traffic and noise free (apart from when the wind picks updistant road or train noise, and the occasional overhead aircraft). What people have to realise the tram will be running 18 hrs a day and that those who live along that route will have to habituate t! o ! any residual noise that soft (or hard) landscaping does not mitigate. If the tram is to be similar to those used in Montepellier (see my earlier Email) such noise may indeed after mitiagation meausures be minimal. If one was to live along a route with Tram track near the bottom of the garden, if the noise can be mitigated, it may be considered postively beneficial on several accounts: 1) It would protect the land from future housing development? 2) The earth bunds that NET talks about to mitigate noise, nicely populated with native trees and wildife, would make an appealing backdrop to any garden 3) If there was every a problem with subsidence then .......... PAS PAS, UK

	27-September-2002 Posters & prices Pity we miss out. Let's get the route built out to Long Eaton - anyone out there? AM, Toton

	27-September-2002 Posters & prices Martin would not buy a car without knowing the price, running costs and overall reliability - then either he does not have a car or a big crystal ball. A new car should last in excess of 10 years, what price petrol over that period? Work place parking levy? Road charging? road tax, insurance etc. there are a massive number of variables. To ask the tram company to give their fare structure any more than a year in advance is being totally unreasonable. The poster - OK I agree that Chilwell Road & George St are not quite the same and the poster doesn't claim that. It makes no claim other than the accurate quote from Mr Hewitt which is an informed opinion. Draw your own conclusions, the conclusions I would like people to draw is that the tram does not kill commerce and Chilwell Road could use some extra patronage. Steve Barber, Beeston

	27-September-2002 Tram fares and car costs Martin’s points about tram fares serve to illustrate that what some of the antis have done is to bombard NET, the pro tram crowd and the public in general, about questions that can be answered by referring to the available details or about details that will be resolved in the near future. Unfortunately I haven’t got time to investigate all details (why can’t the antis do this?) but inevitably when I have done so on a particular aspect, I have not found anything of significance which challenges the broad messages that NET and the councils are putting out. As regards the final bill, I don’t think the councils need to worry about that – that’s for the private sector to worry about! By the way I have certainly not found anything in Croydon which I would want to challenge the ‘elected leaders’ on. What I do find is that the running costs of cars do tend to be highly unpredictable. You never know when a car is going to be broken into! , be involved in an accident (remember those insurance excesses, and claims you pay yourself so that you keep your no claims record), break down, or require extra work at servicing. Even with a protected no claims bonus, try getting a quote at renewal (because your insurer has mysteriously raised your premium after your claim), suddenly your protected claims come back to haunt you as high quotes. Insurance rates can zoom up anyway, as can petrol prices. New batteries, tyres and exhaust tend to be a surprise. Even the cost of cars is highly unpredictable. Ever bought a copy of one of the second hand car valuation magazines but found that cars on the forecourt are always priced at much more than the magazine, with the sales person ALWAYS giving some excuse about it being low mileage or whatever? Discounts on new cars vary widely, and the level of ‘extras’ depends on the Euro exchange rate and the level of public concern about Rip-off Britain. The APR you pay on the! credit deal depends on how much the salesman can fool you into paying and they’ll try every trick in the book. Perhaps the only thing that is predictable about running a car is that the cost will be high, compared to using a tram! Drew, Chilwell

	26-September-2002 Tram/Bus Fatalities In the East Croydon area alone where a bus station is located next to the tramstop, outside the rail station [Integrated Transport :-)], and for a length either side, the trams are on one side of the road, the buses on the other with a Central Reservation and designated crossing points (some with lights, some without), There have been NO serious pedestrian - tram accidents. A few minor ones (one lady ran out of a shop into the side of a moving 30m Red tram!), but NO serious ones or fatalities in this section of the route. In the same time, I can think of between 5 and 10 very serious or fatal bus - pedestrian accidents in the same area. Anecdotal reports from those working in the area say "one a week" for bus - pedestrian accidents there. Tramlink in its entire 28km route (I was refering to possibly 1-2km by East Croydon), has had only 3 Fatalities and very few serious accidents (<5) in total. Most of the serious accidents have been elderly people tripping inside the tram (Croydon Trams have a step at each end and are only 70% low floor - I think NET is 100% low floor). Of the 3 fatalities, one was an accident at Fieldway, New Addington (Lady stepped out in front of an approaching tram - no chance of the driver stopping), one was a suspected suicide at Fieldway (ran from bushes and jumped in front of the tram - The Inquest couldn't find enough of a motive for Suicide although what happened looked to be a suicidal action - Open Verdict), the other was a tram surfer late one night who fell off the back of a tram at Beckenham Road late at night, got fried on the adjacent Railtrack 3rd Rail, an ran over (it was very dark) by the last tram of the night. Incidently, on the subject of Brakes, The trams magnetic brake is an electromagnet which grabs the rail itself - Obviously an HGV or Bus can't do that, any magnetic brake would have to grab the axle/wheel etc. which doesn't help with the tyre/road grip. On Tickets, I don't think the Weekly Tram tickets in Croydon are Transferable. You must remember that Croydon being within the London Travelcard area, has very, very different ticketing arrangements and passenger habits to any other UK tram system so is not a good comparison on this point. SJP, West Wickham, Kent

	27-September-2002 Tram: spot the difference IS useful I must disagree with Stephen Dee of Shepshed (a large village in Leicestershire) and point out the relevance of the spot the difference pictures. Sorry if you have been offended by the comparison, as people who move from one place to another often are – I know, I have lived all over the UK. The fact is that Chilwell Road Beeston and High Road Chilwell, often jointly known as just Chilwell High Road, are just about dead. Some thoughtless retailers there claim that their trade will be damaged by the tram. Its simply not true. Then only way for that road is up. The shot of Croydon shows that a tram will not damage trade, and the facts from Croydon are that it will greatly help. The poster is designed to stimulate debate and disprove nonsensical anti tram claims. I think it does that very well. The High Road is close to Beeston town centre where a major store is reputed to be moving in soon. It is a westerly extension of the main pedestrianised ‘strip’ through ! Be! eston. It has great potential, and if car users were to instead arrive by tram at the High Road, they could get out, make their way along it and through Beeston centre, visiting shops along the way, and then perhaps catch the tram home from the other end of Beeston, or the central square. If they come by car and simply park up at the multi storey, they are less likely to visit the High Road, especially as currently most people are drawn along the linear shopping strip towards the Broadgate (east) end. I note that Shepshed, your current abode, is not exactly the sort of place where supporters of public transport live – it really is a car oriented place. Its not really sure whether its local bus destination is Loughborough, Nottingham, Derby or Leicester. You will benefit from the tram’s park and rides for M1 junctions 24 and 24 when you want to do some serious shopping at one of the country’s best shopping cities though! AW, Nottm

	26-September-2002 Misleading Spot the Difference There is no comparison between Chilwell Rd and George St Croydon, there never was and never will be. If you looked at George St before the tram on a Saturday afternoon at 2, the only difference would off been no tram, no partial pedestrianisation. George St has always been busy. I used work saturdays in major stores less then 100 yds from the photo point. George St is in the Centre of a major town (more people commute into Croydon then commute out) and hence you expect it to busy. If you want to make a comparison with George St, Croydon, then Victoria St in Nottingham City Centre is a better example. Chilwell Rd (not wishing to upset anybody) is a high st in a suburb of Nottingham. I can not think of a fairer comparison in the Croydon area. Even Lower Addiscombe Rd,was a lot busier before the tram then the photo of Chilwell Rd now. Places like Chilwell Rd, will always suffer from being in the shadow of their city neighbourghs. I can remember as a child we used to shop in Lower Addiscombe Rd, going to Sainsburys there when you were served at the counter. As we got the bus there, when the big Sainsbury opened in the Whitgift Centre in Croydon we stopped shoping there and stayed on the bus all the way into the Croydon. No different to those who now move to out of town shopping parks rather then traditioanl shopping areas. That type of change has always been with us. Places like Chilwell Rd will always suffer the competition of their big city neighborours. The only way they will win is by making it easier to shop there, offering different types of shops etc. The tram will be act as a catalyst towards that, but unless Chilwell Rd can attract major shops like you have in the city centre, Chilwell Rd will never look like George St Croydon. Please will the pro-tram poeple stop this missinformation. Stephen Dee, Shepshed, nee South Norwood, Suburb of Croydon

	26-September-2002 Pricing again Thanks AW for your insight onto funding for the trams system. Still I am concerned, I would not buy a car without knowing the price and running costs and overall reliabilty of the car. At the moment people know how much a gallon of petrol costs, we are not aware at all how much a short trip will actually cost, 70p you say, or a bit cheaper than bus fares? well given that NCT and Trent bu company introduced price rises recently this amounts to pointless words. I am simply not convinced or confident that our "elected leaders" will get this right at all, as stated we only have to look to Croyden, Sheffield here. Sorry I may sound pessimistic on the trams, actually I am favour of them as run correctly it will be a huge boost to an already thriving city. The reason why NCT and the council are keeping silent in my belief is that actually they do not know what the final bill will be. Given the current state of politics is it not surprising we are left to debate this of the internet? the silence really is deafening! so com eon City council te! ll us, is this too much to ask? Martin, Nottingham, England

	26-September-2002 Tram Debate 6.53m/s/s is a measure of the power of the braking system, it defines deceleration. As such, it does not include reaction time. It is also independant of speed - the car slows at the same speed regardless. With a simple calculation, we can conclude that the highway code estimates reaction time to be 0.67secs at all speeds. A little research indicates that this may be a little optimistic. A good, alert driver may acheive 0.45secs, but it can be as high as 1.5 for a poor quality, distracted driver. 0.75 is a better average figure. Turning to that somewhat dubious source, the highway code, we can calculate wet braking figures as being roughly 3.25m/s/s for our hypothetical banger. Information is hard to find, I will try to get some figures from bus and truck manufacturers. The Insider, Nottingham

	26-September-2002 Foundations Doug I've got a feeling that all the thunder, noise and ruptions from BCBRA now that it's clear that their campaign has collapsed and NET are definately going along Chilwell Valley is going to cause severe liquafaction around Clumber Ave. Will BCT have their sound measuring equipment ready? The Sceptic, Beeston

	26-September-2002 Reply to Jim and the Insider Of course we are getting some well-informed people on this website. That's because the tram objectors along Wilford embankment aren't contributing. G. Bennett, Wilford

	26-September-2002 The Toton Route NET have reported that the route Nick Palmer proposed through Toton is unworkable. A considerable sum has been spent researching this and the conclusion is that it would bring the benefit/cost ratio down to 85% as opposed to 120% along Chilwell Valley. However, it did suggest a large patronage from that direction so there is a clear case for a branch line to ultimately serve Long Eaton. Steve Barber, Beeston

	26-September-2002 tHE SCEPTIC Mr/Ms Sceptic Please will you chose your words more carefully!!!! We have had a long debate about tram vibrations, house foundation collaspse and liquifaction. Most of the houses within the trent valley are founded on sand and gravels, and now you say that when your foundations are built on sand then eventually they will collaspse. THIS IS NOT TRUE, so please dont start that arguement again, as its not worth having doug, carlton

	25-September-2002 Collapsing arguments So we have the warden of Greenwood Court on Cator Lane saying in the Neighbourhood News “residents would like to catch the tram into Beeston” and previously Mr Wildish of Lower Road admitting that he’s a NIMBY. When your arguments are built on sand then the whole lot will eventually collapse. Sad to see but that’s what’s happening to the anti-tram lobby. The sceptic, Beeston

	25-September-2002 Informed People The insider wrote "we're certainly getting some informed people on this site" for once I agree. I just wish that messrs Wildish, Williams & Willoughby would come on more often - then we could have a real debate. Jim, Beeston

	25-September-2002 stop Insider 6.53m/s/s that sounds quite impressive,doe sthat include thinking/observing time, from what speed would sugest this should be taken (speed limit or for a speeding motorist), also have you found the stopping distance for a bus or HGV?. I understand they to can have magnetic breaks like the trams. Is it right that at low speed its the observing the incident and thinking distance that are the main component for stopping. So presumably on streets where there is poor sighting due to parked cars and a low view aspect, as in a car, the time to observe and thinking time could be longer for a car driver than for a tram or bus, would this signifcantly alter the overall stopping distance. It can all get quite complicated when you start to think about it too hard. floating voter, notts

	25-September-2002 stopping distances Thanks insider, I may yet be convinced. However, you still haven't answered my other questions regarding thinking distances, driver training & distractions and stopping distances for goods vehicles. What is the incidence of non suicide or misadventure deaths due to trams and due to cars? I understand that there has been one such fatality in Croydon due to the tram how many due to buses? FF, Beeston

	25-September-2002 Tram fares Martin. We at BACIT are concerned about pricing. In Sheffield they at first got it wrong and it looked like the system would collapse. Then Stagecoach took over and introduced the popular £7 weekly transferable ticket. This means that a huge number of households buy a ticket and any member of the family can use it for any journey long or short. In Croydon they have done the same. This is considerably cheaper than using the car. However, it’s Nottingham that concerns us so we asked NET and were told that the fares will be slightly below the current bus fares. We hope they also introduce the £7 weekly ticket. The pricing strategy is the most important aspect of operations and a lot of work is going into getting this right. Steve Barber, Beeston

	25-September-2002 Tram fares etc Martin has shown that there is clearly a problem with the public’s understanding of the way the financial flows work for the tram, even amongst who favour the tram (i.e. the majority of the population!). I must say I struggle to understand too, and wish that NET would make it clearer for all to understand, especially as its such a good deal for Notts. This much is clear: the tram operator will be paid a fixed amount per annum over the next 30 years to compensate for the fact that they raised the money to build the system privately in the first place. Its called PFI – private finance initiative and despite the bad press that it’s had in London, it’s a great deal for us and the public sector here! The full amount being paid depends on the operator reaching many quality standards (e.g. running trams to time) and they are severely restrained as to what fares they can charge, etc. If the system makes a loss, it is a problem for the private sector operators! , ! not the public sector (for lines 2 and 3 that’s 75% central government, 25% local government, by the way). Fares in any case are to be comparable with buses over the same distance, otherwise ‘integration’ would fail. I estimate the lowest fare will be about 70p, and it simply won’t be the case that they will be stacked in the earlier years to recover the investment. Earlier, Insider was talking about the fact that the operators aren’t private sector but public sector: Not true! Nottingham City Council can always sell its share of Nottingham City Transport (part of it is already privatised) and NCT can always sell its share of the tram operators. Most city transport operators around the country have been completely privatised anyway. AW, Nottm

	25-September-2002 price What I'm interested in is the actual price level which customers will be expected to pay for a short tram ride? It seems the powers have kept very silent on this matter? or is that they just have not decieded yet? I believe that they have thought about it, given that the funding for the tram system comes from various sources, taxpayers, government, private investment, the banks will want to know how NCT plan to make this profitable? I expect that the price at first will reflect the huge investment therefore be in excess of what the same journey would cost in a car in the first place! So my point is this, if we really want to cut pollution, cut cars in the city etc..make it illegal! drastic but It will more cost effective and we will all see imediate results, the tram system will be good, but it has to be a cheaper alternative to the car, not just an attractive alternative, money talks and if NCT dont get this right from the very start we will all be expected to pick up the costs, now given the fiasco of the bus routes in the city I have little confidence in NCT or the City Council in general...prove me wrong PLEASE! Martin, Nottingham

	25-September-2002 Tram Debate - Reply to FF Since you ask so nicely, I did a bit of research. I've used the stopping distances as quoted by the Highway Code to calculate braking force. Remember that the highway code figures are based on cars from 1965, and cars made within the last 10 years will usually beat these figures, often halving the official distance figures. Nontheless, the figures are: (drum roll please) 6.53m/s/s. Congratulations, your tram's stopping distance is twice as long as that of an old banger. The Insider, Nottingham

	25-September-2002 Trams I think that after having gone through two yrs or so of desruption on our roads, we should use the trams. Also the more people who use the trams the better improvement on out air quality. Which would lead on to improving health, which in the long run saves money. Leonie, Nottingham

	25-September-2002 Tram Decelerations Thinking about it overnight - let's play their game I see you already are: Insider- you are clearly an expert on transport matters and seem to know an awful lot about decelerations that for a B.M.W. is most impressive - I assume that is in perfect conditions and as ex-works. Could you please enlighten us as to the decelerations for a car which has just scraped an M.O.T., in the wet and in the dry? A delivery van, loaded & unloaded. An H.G.V.? At slow speed such as in a shopping street which is more important deceleration or thinking time? What are the relative thinking times? Is it legal for the drivers to be distracted by a radio or mobile phone? What route knowledge must the driver have before entering the street? I'm sure that with your experience you will soon convince me how dangerous trams are. F.F., Beeston

	24-September-2002 Funding Two words Insider - Limited Liability so public money can pour but need not do so. The consortia are backed by the big banks and I understand there are very complex arrangements in place. The figures for the decibel readings are honest but are not scientifically based, far more readings would be necessary and a lot of work done for which any serious achademic would require funding. We do not have such funds. It must be remembered that a reduction of 3dB represents a halving of the sound energy emitted but very few can distinguish much less than a 10dB reduction. I have viewed the latest passenger figures as you have and it is clear why we are most interested in Croydon's system (28% up). That is the one we want except even better! Steve Barber, Beeston

	24-September-2002 Is it not possible Having looked at the messages is it likely that the tram will not be able to generate the capital to pay the 25%. It seems given the figures of passenger numbers presented on the board and various links that it should be able to pay for it self. floating voter, notts

	24-September-2002 Reply to Insider A polite bell is very effective in moving people clear of the tram. In Croydon, the tram successfully crosses a Pedestrianised shopping area whilst decending a very steep grade and with no barriers or warning signals. There have been no accidents at this point to my knowledge since trams first operated there on 16th June 1999. Whilst your new BMW might manage 9m/s/s deceleration in excellent conditions (new tires/dry road/good surface), the tram will reliably achieve 3m/s/s in almost all conditions. This is achieved by magnetic track brakes which are not affected to any great extent by rail conditions. These are mandatory on all UK trams. Not to mention the fact that the tram does this when fully loaded at in excess of 36 tonnes. Try and stop a HGV or bus or average van that fast! Only two weeks ago, a tram descending through the Addington Hills (fairly steep), stopped in 2 seconds from 25kph (as recorded by the data recorder) when a van pulled out in front of it - It wasn't quite fast enough but the van driver did admit to not looking at all! Regarding points 2 and 3, you must have better drivers in Nottingham. In Croydon, vehicles are highly likely to move without warning, sometimes at speed in any direction regardless of one way roads, pedestrianised roads, tram only lanes, pavements, pedestrians etc. Obviously some drivers may be highly skilled but the vast majority are not and the tram drivers recieve far more rigourous training in defensive driving, and observations plus regular monitoring than any car or lorry driver would. Plus all actions are recorded and randomly checked for driving technique too. OK, the spot the difference photos were a bit extreme but many, many other locations on Tramlink could have been compared quite fairly to equivalent locations in Nottingham to show similar benifits. If anyone wants to use one of the Photos from www.croydon-tramlink.co.uk to match up with, feel free. SJP, West Wickham, Kent

	24-September-2002 The insider I was interested to note the insiders comments on the noise report on the BACIT site. The Insider says that he thinks it works against the pro tram cause. Can I ask why??? The report was just to present some of the numbers and put it in context of what people heard (or not) by doing some comparisons to sounds we all know. The aim was to enable people who listened to the trams to make their own minds up based on what they heard, not by quoting figures which may not mean much. I am interested to know how the insider can say that the numbers are surprisingly high from his experience of Sheffield. Does this mean Insider that you are surprised how comparatively noisy the trams in Croydon may be to Sheffield (as loud as a conversation when leaving a stop) if that can be called noisy. Does this mean the trams in Sheffield, from your comments, are quieter than those in Croydon. Noise and noisiness is a subjective judgement not a numerical one, and all the people who went on the Croydon trip were surprised how quite and non-invasive the sound generated by the tram was, significantly less than all the buses in the area. So how noisy is a bus? matthew, chilwell

	23-September-2002 Nottingham Trams - reply to S Parascandolo Hello, Stephen, we're certainly getting some informed people on this site. Before I reply, I'd just like to point out that I'm not really anti-tram as such, but I do like to see accurate facts in a debate, and to that end I'm going to go through your points: 1) Bell-ringing - big deal. A combustion engine revs before it takes off, there's little difference in warning. 2) On the busy streets we're talking about, it's pretty rare for any vehicle to not "go forwards in the direction of traffic" 3) "You know exactly where it will move to and where to stand to be clear of it" - the same can be said of any road vehicle, it's generally accepted that the road delimits the area where you can expect traffic to be! 4) "It has better brakes and a more skilled and alert driver at the controls should any idiot do something stupid in front of it". Trams do not brake as quickly as rubber-tyred road vehicles, I'm sorry but it's a fact. As I've said previously, a (for example) BMW's braking ! power weighs in at in excess of 9m/s/s, while your tram manages 3.0m/s/s. Even taking the BMW's 'performance car' status into account, other road vehicles are likely to have, at worst, comparable figures to the tram. As for driver skill, that's variable, obviously. Alertness - who's more alert, a driver in the middle of a 45-min journey, or a tram driver at the end of a 7 hour shift? As for 'spot the difference', I suspect that businesses will, eventually, actually benefit from the tram, but those photos are not a good basis from which to judge. You can hardly argue about relative popularity of the streets when the areas are obviously so different. The Insider, Nottingham

	23-September-2002 Tram Debate - Reply to Steve Barber Steve, yes I very graciously demolished my own argument about overspending, but I left my funding argument standing, and you haven't addressed it. The fact that the City (not County) Council is the majority shareholder of NCT, which is in turn a member of the Arrow Consortium, seems interesting to me - a disguised hole through which public money can pour. I'm being overly suspicious, perhaps, but no-one's answered this specific query, so if you have information that specifically refutes this argument, by all means supply it. I read Colin Lea's letter re: funding on the BACIT site, and this does not address this specific point either. Pedantic perhaps, but it could be wordplay on his part - the "risk" is with the "concessionaire" - who is that? Arrow, I suppose, who includes NCT... and so on. I have to take my hat off to you, your site is (for the most part) fact-based and impartial - I actually thought the decibel testing worked against your cause - I thought the readings f! or the tram were surprising high, given my experience of the Sheffield tram. On another note, you may interested to know that passenger figures for the UK's tram systems are, on average, up on last year's figures. Croydon registered the highest increase, at 28% over last year. Sheffield managed 2.8%, Birmingham's Midland Metro fell around 2%. Read the full statistics at http://www.transtat.dft.gov.uk/tables/2002/literail/literail.htm#recent The Insider, Nottingham

	23-September-2002 Spot the Difference In reply to Willo, you clearly missed the point. The photo from Nottingham showed no people at your poor local shops, yet Croydon is thriving and much of that is due to the Tram. Steve has explained why it is a single line in George Street - George Street is also considerably narrower than Chilwell Road. Take a look at the photo accompanying the Noise report (or browse 1350 photos of Croydon Tramlink on my site at www.croydon-tramlink.co.uk) and you will see how double track fits into a narrowish road complete with tramstops. Whatever gives you the idea that crossing in front of a stationary tram is dangerous? Advantages to crossing in front of a tram (as opposed to any other road vehicle): - 1) It will ring a bell before pulling away, 2) It will always go forwards in the direction of traffic, 3) You know exactly where it will move to and where to stand to be clear of it, 4) It has better brakes and a more skilled and alert driver at the controls should any idiot do something stupid in front of it. Re the Street Cafes, take a closer look - Behind the many pedestrians on the right hand side and you can see some of the chairs on the far left of the photo - none were there when the road was full of noisy traffic. There are less shops closed (none in fact!) and further down the line into Church Street the area is vastly better. You clearly don't understand either Trams or Croydon - perhaps you should make an effort to gather information and facts about subjects before speaking about them. Stephen Parascandolo, West Wickham, Kent ( 5 miles from Croydon)

	23-September-2002 Evil artwork Floating voter - look on the telegraph pole outside the Last Post Pub on Foster Ave Bob, Beeston

	23-September-2002 Gwenbrook Ave PAS I have not studied your proposal in detail, I think it is up to you to state why you think this route worthwhile. The NET proposal has the big advantage of properly serving Broxtowe College therefore alleviating the problem of parked cars in the neighbouring streets – a big problem. The downside is that 3 houses on Gwenbrook Ave will be severely affected. They will not be demolished but lose so much of their garden that NET have no option but to offer to purchase them according to the government guidelines. As in Croydon NET then intend to sell the houses, once construction is completed, at a price reflected by the proximity of the tramway (In Croydon this was a plus as the stop was also very close & in the event the purchaser has made a fortune). This has given the present occupants two choices – either take the money & move or negotiate with NET a deal whereas they stay but receive a significant amount of compensation. One of these residents came with us to Croydon to ! see what had happened there, talk to the residents and become better informed. They still haven’t decided what to do but are on record (Evening Post 18/09/02) as saying that the trams were quieter than they had imagined. Steve Barber, Beeston Notts

	23-September-2002 liquifaction With regard to the question of tram induced soil liquifaction. I trust your property survived last nights earthquake. Who is sowing the seeds to start peoples fears about irrelavent issues??. What are they trying to do?? Willo can you help you seem to know whats going on. doug, Carlton

	23-September-2002 Doug & steve Doug, I am not being anti-tram I just wnated to know what the subsidence was due to and would trams affect it. If your answer is corect then will sub-sonic vibration affect liquifraction and rates of settling. Since I would need to know this if I wanted to move closer to the tram route. Secondly, how good are houses without cavity walls (the majority of those along the proposed tram route) good at screening out the noise of trams, another issue I wish to consider if I want to move closer to the proposed tram route? Steve, will more or less property have to be acquired if an Imperial road route was chosen, consider the many residents of Gwenbrook avenue who will lose both gardens and some homes? It may work out cheaper. The Imperial Road route would also mitigate any problems for the residents of Richmond court. You state that "most" of the issues for the Chilwell-Beeston Route can be mitigated, that implies there are some that cannot, please illuminate me? Fourthly I have worked in Montepellier in France with its surperb tram system, which was relatively quiet, cheap and a very desirable system. However, it seems that most of it ran along extremely wide boulevards, with a double central track, a single lane raod on either side and then with a cyclepath/footpath either side of that. Then to top it all Cafes and Bistros along some of its route. Unfortunately Chillwel High Road can never be like that since it is just not wide enough without a good deal of demolition, will this occur? PAS, Notts

	23-September-2002 Spot the difference A quick addendum to my previous message. The pictures to which Willo refers are at http://www.bacit.org where there is also an interesting very readable report by Dr Frost on tram noise. Opinions are welcome preferably here or more privately to info@bacit.org. Steve Barber, Beeston

	23-September-2002 Trams Some interesting responses on the costs. If the County Council is not concerned over the costs because someone else will pay why didn’t they give the go ahead on the project ? Why did they request additional costing information before going further ? If someone else is paying surely they would be out grabbing the funds. Is it really being suggested that the evaluation overrun is going to be reimbursed to our Council coffers? Look on the NET website (tucked away in the archives) it actually says they have to provide further costing information to satisfy the County Council . By the way Insider you need to add at least another 12 % to your overrun estimate as Company NIC will be incurred on these costs. JC, West Bridgford

	23-September-2002 Trams spot the difference Willo (Mr Willoughby?) if you want more evidence of regeneration etc then you must go to Croydon. From £11 return to St Pancras then a £5.50 all zones ticket to cover the journey to Croydon & all day on the trams If you go by car I would advise an overnight stop due to the inconvenience and uncertainty of the journey) I have photos which show all the points you make. The reason for the single track is that Church & George St are narrower than Chilwell Road and so a single track option was necessary. The lady with the pram is crossing in front of a stationary tram discharging about 40 shoppers. There is no traffic so her movement is perfectly safe. The return track takes another more circuitous route. The pavement cafe was behind the photographer as were the historic Alms houses which the tram passes without problems. Croydon is not a city. I'll certainly keep up the good work, arguing my points from a position of knowledge & experience! Steve Barber, Beeston

	23-September-2002 willo comes out I am a bit confused about willos motivations. willo's last emails were claiming impartiallity describing your views of the opionions and altrusitic nature you percieved the anti tram people were portraying and stating that all others with different views were doing it for selfish reasons. Now your last email sugests you are an anti tram person due to your comment to steve barber to keep up the good work and the comments you make about soem poster or other and the trams eat babies arguement. (where can we see this evil piece of pictorial work) Willo given your knowledge of the anti tram debate that enabled you to form your original opinions are you able to help us find out where the BCBRA 250k is coming from that Jim seems to continually bang on about. The floating voter, notts