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06 December 2004 0944 GMT
Graphic: My life as a teenage goth
Picture: Misery Whispers and Shadow Mercy
Misery Whispers and Shadow Mercy

Josh, Jessica and Anton love black clothes, black eyeliner and black nail varnish. Why? Because they're goths.

Here they write about life as a goth in Norfolk.

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Goths love wearing black - whether it's black clothes or make-up because they like to look different from other people.

The gothic culture has its roots in punk and wearing black is part of looking dark and mysterious.

Josh, also known as Shadow Mercy, Jessica, who calls herself Misery Whispers and Anton who is known as Lord Mercy, are all Goths and 12-years-old.

Shadow Mercy

Picture: Josh calls himself Shadow Mercy
Josh, also known as Shadow Mercy
Have your say on the Goth lifestyle here

It started when I was at my new middle school when I met this boy called Anton and we made friends.

After a few months we started to dress in baggy clothes - black of course - and started hanging around with people wearing black make-up.

When we had the money we bought eyeliner, lipstick and black nail vanish.

We started avoiding the townie stuff (like wearing Adidas or Nike) and other sorts of non-black stuff.

About Me

I listen to Marilyn Manson, Slipknot, Green Day, Good Charlotte and other sorts of punk metal or gothic rock.

I like to do magic spells and to look at runes books.

I wear black lipstick and black nail vanish and I also wear black eyeliner.

I wear spiky bracelets and spiky rings and necklaces.

My advice to people who want to become a Goth is don't be too cocky.

Misery Whispers

Picture: Jessica, also known as Misery Whispers
Jessica, also known as Misery Whispers

It all started at the beginning of year 7. I started to enjoy music like Slipknot and Murder Dolls.

My friends thought I was weird because I wore all black and stuff like that.

Near the end of year 7 I went to a school disco and I was completely gothic. It was so funny because I got a lot of attention.

Now I'm in year 8 and I have loads of Goth friends now.

I tried to get away with having my face white but my mum noticed and told me to take it off.

This also happened with my nails.

I hate school because I can't wear what I want in clothes and make-up.

Lord Mercy

It all began when I first heard a Marilyn Manson song called Disposable Teens. At first I hated it and didn't want to listen to it.

After a while I saw a few Goths in a group outside McDonalds I thought that they looked really cool.

After a while I decided to try and dress like it and soon I was dressed like it all the time. It was great to be able to express my feelings through the way I dressed.

Eventually I heard a great song on the radio and wanted to know who it was by and what it was called.

I found out that it was a song by Marilyn Manson called The Love Song.

Now I dress like a Goth all the time and love lots of types of music including Slipknot Murder Dolls, Cradle of Filth and lots more.

I also like a band called Dimmu Borgir who are a satanic band from somewhere in Germany.

Our message board is now closed. You can read what people had to say in response to this story, below.

There's no point to gothic lifestyles. They say they hate trends and whats "cool" but yet they are a trend, they all look alike, they all where the same color(black)... obviously. They don't like trends and fashions, but wearing make-up and putting spikes and boots on everyday is a fashion. Tell me one other thing they do it for? Being different in todays society is a trend. If you wanna be goth, thats your thing, but don't go around telling people you hate fashion/trends and the "IN" thing.
Joey, Pa
Mon Nov 29 05:16:45 2004

I listen to Joy Division and I sometimes dress in black. Am I goth?
Michael, San Francisco
Mon Nov 29 04:42:46 2004

That's not the goth life style! I sing and do bass in the Boston goth band Malice In Leatherland.I've appeared in the New Yorker, National TV and the Boston Globe to talk about goth. It has NOTHING to do with religion, satanism or SLIPKNOT.It has everything to do with 80s bands like BAUHAUS, Siouxsie and the Banshees, and modern youth fixations like Veganism, Pacifism, and other Leftist ideas.
Basim, Boston
Mon Nov 29 04:39:29 2004

On a side note, "goth" was an era in time, and is NOT a legitimate means of describing people.
Ashley, Lake County, Illinois
Mon Nov 29 04:37:20 2004

Where do I even start? Yeah it's cute for them to experiment, to find who they really are through that method, but really, in some way we're all made to conform. I am a goth, freak, punk, jugalette, geek, prep, popular..etc. Label me what you want, but I'm me! A true punk, freak, goth or other, will notice that it's about being who you are with out putting yourself in a cadegory. The true people know who they are with out constantly LABELING themselves as it!
Nicole, MN
Mon Nov 29 04:37:16 2004

ok, I wear black and all but I'm not a goth. I hate it when people mistake me as one. Black is just a simple color to where and nobody really notices you. I don't wear black makeup - I just say that's overdoing it. So, to you goths that are depressed and say that you have no life don't advertise it. You just sound like a lot of complainers. Come on, get over it. You guys say stuff like this " Boo hoo. My parents hates me. They makes me do a lot of chores " Get over it! There's females at the age of 12 that are being forced to marry and have a child. No! they don't want this. But there forced too. But, are they goth? No! and they're treated far more worse than you. There's also kids in other states that have no home and must do unbearable stuff just to live. Are they goths? No! Theres kids that die from hunger everyday that are far more younger than you. They're not goth! They're kids that have no family and live on the streets. Are they goth? No!. So please. If you want to be goth. Fine by me because I have friends that call themselves goth but they don't over do it. So, please stop complaining about having to do a few chores around the house and get on with life.
Mon Nov 29 04:00:41 2004

What what I wear and what I listen to should not determine what I truly am, for it is my character that ultimately decides this. I believe that one cannot stand out by conforming to this "goth" lifestyle. You make you who you are, be yourself, wear what you want listen to what you want, don't strive for a label.
Matt, Pennsylvania
Mon Nov 29 03:30:05 2004

I've been a Goth for 16 years and I find this HIGHLY offensive.
Jinjo Canada
Mon Nov 29 02:24:45 2004

Doesn't it seem strange that you're more concerned about what you are, gothic, rather than who you are? Wouldn't it be greater if you could express your own emotions by what you wear, instead of everyone else's emotions? Does being classified, or labeled detract from such expression? Why is it that most people criticize goths? Not to say the popular opinion is right, but I would say there's definately a reason behind the common belief.
Peter, MN
Mon Nov 29 02:23:35 2004

Gothic is a type of archetecture that was created durring the middle ages in france and italy.
Mon Nov 29 01:59:53 2004

Goths are losers. I'm punk myself and i can't stand goths. The whole gothic attitude is that they are such an individual and nobody understands them :( boo hoo... so sad. Gothic people are nothing but melodramatic cry babies.
Mon Nov 29 01:58:24 2004

Whats with all the people saying 'if you wanna be an individual why you dress like all the other goths?' I'd just like to point out that as a whole, goth is a subculture meaning the majority ARE NOT goths. Therefore it does set you apart from other people. However I find it stupid when 'goths' argue about who/what is goth n what isn't. I believe someone commented on it already that goth is just a feeling or a mindset. How ya dress/music u listen 2, just expresses urself to others.
Troy, Canada
Sun Nov 28 22:16:23 2004

yeah apparently in Maryland i am known as a Poseur Goth for some reason, i guess it was because i did not wear black makeup and nail polish, but at my school they were all poseurs, i have always enjoyed metal music and gory horror movies since the womb, i am now 19 and am still the same way, goth is not all black and doing magic, it is in the soul... something people apparently forgot about long ago
Yarg from Maryland
Sat Nov 27 07:54:21 2004

let's all conform to the nonconformist ways!
perry, nj, usa
Sat Nov 27 06:58:48 2004

I am 13 from Canada. Is it possible to be both preppy and gothic? I am going for that look. Thanks.
William from Canada
Sat Nov 27 05:26:07 2004

I really don't understand this goth thing at all. Why would someone who seeks individuality want to be classified as a goth? And clearly they DO want to be a goth, otherwise they wouldn't wear the uniform, and wouldn't argue so much over which music is "goth" and which isn't.
Sam, UK
Sat Nov 27 02:39:57 2004

Never forget that you're unique, just like everybody else!
Sat Nov 27 01:58:10 2004

"The music is terrible!! It's embaraasing to call it music..." I'm Quoting Joe (Sheffield).. I beg to differ, Gothic music is different, yet more feeling put into it. Myself, i could rap about "hoes" and if it was a hit, i could make millions of dollars, but big whoop, how is RAPPING music, its just talking fast. Gothic,metal,punk music is more artistic and has a lot of feeling actually. It's not embarassing either.
Jamie, Ohio
Sat Nov 27 01:09:50 2004

hey, dont bag them....they wanna be different, like everyone else...
kizz, melbs.
Sat Nov 27 01:01:46 2004

i'm 13 years old and i've always had a thing for the gothic look.i myself have decided to go goth, but i need to get more black clothes. black is my favorite color and it is the only color that i want to wear now.
kansas lenoir city TN
Sat Nov 27 00:57:34 2004

In South Africa, the "Goth" subculture is still pretty huge but, despite me knowing many goths, I have not met a single one who has taken on a whack-job name. Also, why do people want to confuse Satanism with Goth? The stereotype of always wearing black and looking like a cadavar are extreme enough without having to throw Satan in as well.
Cas, South Africa
Fri Nov 26 10:01:29 2004

I agree with others when they say how can you really be an individual if you are not labelling yourself a "goth". If you truelly want to be an individual people shouldn't be able to label you. You can't really put a label on me cause I'm not a "townie" or a "goth" or a "punk" or nothing, I like to mix it up. So you know, get a personality and a brain don't follow a trend all your lives!
Kitty-Kat, UK
Fri Nov 26 09:29:12 2004

How patronizing are all the people who tell them what music to listen to?
Fri Nov 26 05:46:18 2004

being "goth" doesnt necessarily mean ur different...because if you live in a place like i do, theres lots of goths and you arent different if u are so then being goth has no point if u want to be different, i mean they are different to me because im not goth im 100% ungothic, i wear abercrombie and all that but i dont dislike or hate on goths, i dont judge people by what they look like, but i know alot of them and are friends with them, but just be careful and make good choices :-)
Fri Nov 26 05:20:03 2004

How can you be invididual if you all look the same?
Reggae Ron
Fri Nov 26 05:05:31 2004

its good to drewss how you want but to put lables on yourself and to dress a certin way becasue u think u have to because oif the type of music you listen to or to try and be differnt is pointless, dress how you want to becasue you like it not because you will be labeled as goth
Fri Nov 26 03:54:36 2004

Let people just be. Why does everyone feel the way they dress and the way they act to be proper? Stop trying to judge others. Let it be.
Big D
Fri Nov 26 01:25:47 2004

I think if you want to be a goth thats fine but its really not original anymore and it hasnt been for ages. I am a rock fan, mainly punk, I dont dress like a goth at all but because I might wear a Korn hoodie people seem to think I am one and if it was really that original people would realise the difference. When I was 15, I'm 19 now, I had a couple of friends who were goths and back then it really was original, no one looked like them but now there is so many goths its become like a normal thing to see goths around. I agree you should defo get into more music there is much, much more to rock than Marilyn Manson and slipknot and good charlotte are so ungoth its laughable, their not even punk! But stick up for the music you like and the style you like back when I first got into rock I had a hard time from people who thought I was weird, just be happy in yourself and people will soon realise its got nothing to do with them!
Elaine, UK
Fri Nov 26 00:08:29 2004

Dimmu Borgir is a Norwegian band.... Not German
Eirik, Norway
Thu Nov 25 23:34:52 2004

Sarah from York - what's wrong with Busted?!!?
Andy, Northants
Thu Nov 25 22:53:36 2004

Let them live theres lives, who are we to judge?????? I wear Victorian style clothing, but i also listen too metal music, does that make me any less gothic? i dont think so, theres no set of rules which you have to live by too say your gothic and your not. I really hate narrow minded people like that, go to Whitby Gothic Weekend, you have people there dressed in jeans and a t-shirt, and then theres other looking like they have just stepped out of a period drama. Do people care what they look like NO they are there to have fun nothing more, and as for the names whats wrong with them? Im known as Draco if they want to identify with each other using nicknames etc let them!!!!!!!! Rant over
Mark (Draco) Plymouth UK
Thu Nov 25 21:04:07 2004

Ok, lots of negative comments here... So maybe they don't understand the true nature of being goth and are just labelling themselves, but hey...they are young, they will learn if they want to! I think people should give them a break as they are finding ways of expressing themselves which don't involve anti-social behaviour, vandalising anything they can get their hands on and basically turning into mini-football hooligans or the sort of person that feels the need to square off to anyone whilst carrying a blade or worse...
Mark - Hampshire
Thu Nov 25 20:39:33 2004

Why anyone would want to be a goth is beyond me!! The music is terrible!! It's embaraasing to call it music when reall music is Bruce Springsteen amazing people with his immense talent, not some pathetic loser screeching about satanism down a microphone!!
Joe (Sheffield)
Thu Nov 25 20:10:37 2004

I thing that we really shudnt label society and different groups, as this just starts tension etc.. But i have to agree that being gothic is not jst about the clothes it is also about the lifestyle and being what you want to be and doing what you want to do, however sadly there are many people out there who just all wear these slipknot t-shirts etc. listening to really popular music such as good charlotte and putting on lipstick etc. bt tht isnt a real goth tht is the stereotypical image, and they think it makes them cool, what is really cool is finding your own style, and fair enough im a goth bt i dnt always wear black, and i certainly dont paint my nails or stuff, and i do listen to heavy metal, bt have a broader mind. Oh if ur lookin for an amazin metal band, check out Children of Bodom.
Sak, Wales
Thu Nov 25 20:05:57 2004

Dimmu Borgir are Norwegian. How can wearing what every other 'Goth' wears be individualistic. However good luck in being a 'Goth' as I know that 'Goths' don't have a good reputation.
Casey (Preston)
Thu Nov 25 19:53:11 2004

Hmm.... What we have here is a classic case of 'I need more attention, please!'. Let's face it, Marilyn Manson, Slipknot and MurderDolls are about as gothic as each other. I'm a little bit irritated that only the weird goths get the public attention, thus spreading the stereotypes even further.
Craig, The South West
Thu Nov 25 19:52:27 2004

You aren't goths. Real goths like The Cure, Sisters of Mercy and Bauhaus. Dimmu Borgir aren't satanic. Don't marginalise yourselves by trying to match a stereotype.
Kris, York
Thu Nov 25 19:49:41 2004

I remember sort of going through a phase where I wanted to be different from everyone else. I thought that, to be my own person, I had to completely separate myself from the culture and ideals of others. Soon, however, I realized that what I was doing--intentionally separating myself from the crowd--was worse than what the crowd was doing. The "Townies", or "Sheep" as we called them, were and are completely ignorant of the fact that they were and are only following a crowd, whereas the mindset of myself and those with similar ideals was so self-delusional that we didn't even realize that we, simply by becoming "Punk", we were doing the exact same thing that, for doing which, we scorned the "Sheep". Our/your ideals were/are philosophically worse than those of the "Townies" because your ideals are hypocritical and self-defeating. I hope, however that if (and hopefully when) you grow out of this phase, you have learned that it's not about being different, but doing what you like, no matter what everyone else does.
John, from Ohio
Thu Nov 25 19:22:03 2004

i used to be a goth, but found that it was hard to get by, ie get jobs and stuff, so i gave it all up, i still do some stuff sometimes get dressed up etc, just not as much
Rob Swindon
Thu Nov 25 18:55:50 2004

i love them. they are so cute, and when i grow up, i wanna be just like them. i
Ed (aka Prince of the Underworld) from aldershot
Thu Nov 25 18:20:21 2004

Are goths Buffy the Vampire Slayer fans?
Thu Nov 25 18:04:13 2004

I feel they are very brave. i know goth is just another club with its own dress code. but at 12 you they risking a lot of abuse for what they see to be different. sometimes i think we forget how hard it was to be 12 and to find our own way, i was 16 before i got as far as they have. so you have got me beat, more power to you. also you may grow out of dressing goth but goth has a way of staying with you anyway.
Richard Pepper, chelmsford
Thu Nov 25 18:01:50 2004

Is the goth lifestyle for you? no
Kelly from Isle of Wight
Thu Nov 25 17:43:53 2004

"because they like to look different from other people." But you don't! I just think its daft little kids going arounds wearing black and calling themselves goths to be "different" when were aren't being so. Surely if you see goth people and think that looks cool i want to be like that, then dress goth and listen to the music goths are meant to like then surely you are no different from townies etc. You're merely following someone's culture because you believe its cool. Then listening to Good Charlotte and thinking thats punk metal and you're a goth... thats wrong! True mordern goth music is a derivative of 80s synth pop, or of course old gothic music. One more thing... isn't being a goth about not going by labels? then why label yourself a goth?
richard, reality
Thu Nov 25 15:39:35 2004

And the moral of this article is wear black and listen to what magazines and TV tells you to listen to. Marilyn Manson, Good Charlotte, Murderdolls...give me a break. If you really want to be different go and listen to older rock music. And lose the names! I do have to laugh at them though going on about townies dressing all the same, when all of the goths are wearing the same Slipknot Iowa shirt. There are better bands out there than Good Charlotte- hunt them out!
Thomas from Norfolk
Thu Nov 25 15:19:44 2004

Oh the ironing! You strive so hard to look different, yet you all end up looking the same.
Pete, Surrey
Thu Nov 25 14:27:44 2004

I wear black and I'm not a goth. Wearing black doesn't make you a goth. Let's stop with the labels. Thanks.
Jon, Brighton
Thu Nov 25 14:22:20 2004

Hmmm. As an 18 year old girl I probably shouldn't even be reading this stuff. However, I think all the comments slagging these people down are a bit out of order. Come on, like someone's already said people have to discover music somehow. Marilyn Manson are one of the first bands I ever listened to, but now I listen to all sorts. Growing up as what you people call a "goth" kid I became really open minded about everything. Sexuality, music, life, everything. If there's one good thing about this whole "goth" revolution that's taken over the past few years, then it's that. Open mindedness. Course, when I was 12 I was the only kid in black lipstick for miles around. So I reckon we should enjoy it. Before some other fashion comes along :P
Hazey Jane
Thu Nov 25 13:45:03 2004

Labels are rubbish - but I suppose at the age of 12 all you really want to do is fit in - but don't make the mistake of thinking that what you are doing is individual, it's all about subscribing to a subculture so you can belong. Wearing blue jeans to a goth club is far more individual than wearing a velvet cloak. But it shouldn't actually matter what you wear it matters what you are like as a person - goths who judge people on how they dress are the same as the 'townies' they despise.
Davros of Yorkshire
Thu Nov 25 13:06:38 2004

hey guys, it's nice to know that your taking an interest in the goth lifestyle. i am a goth aswell, but more of a punk really. always be careful who u meet and talk to as there are loads of druggies and weird people out there. nice makeup you to beth
beth, fenny compton
Thu Nov 25 11:24:01 2004

I'll admit I have had a few beatins for wearing black eyeshadow and wearing a "The cure" - lullaby T-shirt in school but those people are not going to change me and I dont think a few peoples outburst should change you, stay with what you believe in but keep true to youself, but I really think you should check out the band called "the cure" they have been my favorite band for a few weeks now and also what influenced me to adapt the the gothic lifestyle. so good luck with future life
Daniel, Littleport
Thu Nov 25 10:10:56 2004

Oh please, stop putting labels on yourself
Thu Nov 25 08:47:04 2004

Hey guys! Just enjoy the music and the scene as much as you can. Just don't do stupid things. If you proceed to listen to this kind of music you will learn that there's even much, much more great music out there and maybe you'll even get to know what the name 'Goth(ic)' really means (culture, scene, music). In the mean time, just have fun, an open mind and forget about all the people pickin' on ya! Cheers, Peter (Holland)
Peter, The Netherlands
Thu Nov 25 07:51:17 2004

What a joke.
John, Maryland
Thu Nov 25 07:34:43 2004

look guys, it's good to be goth if thats what you want to do. but goth is actually a style of architecture from the 17th century. why they call it 'goth' is unknown. the style that is 'goth' is merely a mixture of odd clothes, jewely, and makeup. it has nothing to do with being sad or expressing feelings. everyone expresses themselves differently and everyone is different weather they like it or not. i'm 17 now, 18 in march, and i have been 'goth' for 6 years, and the only reason i started was to get attention. it's kinda sad knowing that most kids do it for the attention of others but it's true. just make sure that your head is in the right place about this awesome subculture, it's not about attention, it's about the love of music and culture, artwork and the strange things in the world. goth has no root in anything, not even music. music has a root in goth. 'goth' is responsible for any metal or death metal band (in most cases at least), so we have allot to be proud of. just keep it up, be honest to yourself more than anything about who you are and always know that your different even if you don't wear black. and a woord of advise, drop the surenames, you shouldn't hide yourself in a false identity.
Corey Wood, Fresno CA
Thu Nov 25 07:27:59 2004

There might've been a time when "Goth" was original. But this is just a mirror of the "townie" attitude. They like to look like other people who like to hang out with people who look like them. All this in the name of "difference". I just love it.
Thu Nov 25 04:44:17 2004

Being goth is about who you are as much as the music. These kids have shown a lot of courage to be how they want to be. So what if they don't fully understand the whole goth subculture yet. They have their whole lives to learn more about it. I started off listening to non-goth metal bands and shock-rock like Marilyn Manson whilst I was searching for who I really am and then searched further and found the whole goth subculture and the music, lifestyle etc. that goes with it. Its something a lot of kids do. Is it really fair to have a go at them or say that what they are doing is not right or is not Goth. Give them a break and let them discover who they are. You never know, in a few years they will probably have expanded their musical tastes into 'real' goth music anyway. How many people can say they knew everything about being Goth at the age of 12? Didn't think so. Keep at it kids and don't let anyone put you down.
Rob, Cambridgeshire
Thu Nov 25 03:27:53 2004

Ah, goths just look like other goths. If you want to be different, well, do something that hasn't been done before!
Tanis Nikana, Oregon
Thu Nov 25 02:08:11 2004

hey, im 12 and goth too, but i dont wear those REALLY GOTHIC clothes, just black band T-shirts and black pants. And i just wear eyeliner. Also, i like those bands too.
kelly new york
Thu Nov 25 01:58:00 2004

Dimmu Borgir is a melodic black metal band from Norway.
Jake, Wisconsin
Thu Nov 25 01:53:22 2004

good charlotte rocks =)
Thu Nov 25 00:42:10 2004

I am also a 12 year old and think they are trying hard. They say they enjoy the musick. Thats nice. I like some of those bands too, but the clothes. No one I'VE ever seen dresses like that. I am punk, but my friends consider me punk not in the way i dress but in what i listen to and what i am like. This is too much!
Killerkitti, Walthamstow
Thu Nov 25 00:37:51 2004

Individuality is not the object of goth, it is merely the stumbling block of the townie. People do seem to always put the cart before the horse on this issue. Iain x - Thirtysomthing and shoegazing rivethead, more or less..
18hz, London
Thu Nov 25 00:18:48 2004

i think the whole thing's a bit limited, only dressing in black and listening to "goth" music. one thing i've learnt is to just dress and listen to stuff you personally like, and not stuff that you're told is right to like. and i do kind of agree with A Goth from Ireland on the music side of things.
Johnny Rocket
Wed Nov 24 23:18:34 2004

Jow long will it take for people to realise that between Goths and Neds(townies) there is actually people who are just themselves...and well not just being silly. I wont deny i've experimented with different images, not goth, but punk etc which i got into loads at the time, but after a while you'll realise how insignificant what you look like and who you're friends with is.
David from Glasgow
Wed Nov 24 23:08:28 2004

As many have stated, this isn't "Goth". This is what is considered "Trendy". Goth was born in the 80's with such bands as the Sisters of Mercy, Joy Division, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Bauhaus, and Fields of the Nephilim, all excellent groups. It really is quite sad to see the butchery of such a culture.
Chris, USA
Wed Nov 24 23:07:02 2004

What’s the point in staying away from Nike and Adidas, if the clothes you wear are just as over expensive and mass-produced. I bet you get new rocks for Christmas. Real gothic bands are basically 80's synth pop but they dye their mullets black. There's nothing evil or satanic about the Goth subculture. That all comes from the corpse paint wearing Black Metal bands, like Burzum, Mayhem and Dimmu Borgir (who are Norwegian). Try listening to them – Black Metal music has a whole lot more to it than any Goth music. Real gothic bands are basically 80's synth pop but they dye their mullets black and wear dodgy sunglasses. If you're going to express yourself, then fine, but don't look at Marilyn Manson or Amy Lee and think you just HAVE to look just like them. That really takes the individuality out of it. There’s no one saying “you’re supposed to do/wear/listen to this” so why torture yourself trying to get something so pathetic right. Have some imagination - look at underground music like Ragnarok or Psycroptic or Limbonic Art. You'd be surprised at the amount of talent that goes unnoticed by people who just pick up what's in the top 40 in their local HMV (at a vastly inflated price).
Lost Wisdom
Wed Nov 24 22:42:16 2004

I'm not a goth but I know a few. Goths are always amusing to be around, one reason being that they can make you seem the life and soul of a party:-P. Some of the music they listen too isn't exactly what I like but a good bit of Sabbath never goes amiss although its important to see the difference between Sabbath and more gothic bands. Also the difference between Goth, Gothic and Goths is important. Goth: We all know what these are (I hope) and yeah the main reason I'm not saying what a Goth is, is because its hard to describe really. Gothic: Go to a church (the old kind), the archatecture (evil big words!), should be what is described as Gothic. Goths: Germanic Tribe, as oppose to wearing black they tended not to wear that much. Took part in the sacking of Rome. Although in comparison to other places, there are quite a few Goths in Darlo, problem is there are to many damn charv's.
Jamie (Headbanger) - Darlington
Wed Nov 24 16:43:42 2004

Bless their little cotton (stripy) socks! We all have to start somewhere, after all. At the risk of reignighting the WIG debate, it's a shame BBC Norfolk have got it so utterly, drastically, wrong. Those kids are taking a step in the right direction away from Busted/Westlife etc but they're still about as goth as my mum...
Sarah, York
Wed Nov 24 16:16:48 2004

We all started out as teeny goths! When I was 12 I looked, said and acted fairly similarly to the kids mentioned in the artice. Yes, they are fairly clueless as to the roots of goth, but they will get there so give them a break ok? Nowadays, I look like a punk. But if I hadn't started out by at least trying something a bit different I'd have never got to where I am today- a fully rounded individual aware of myself, and my identity, with a broad musical collection and a good set of friends. I think what needs to be adressed isn't the kids answers which are standard 12 year old replies when asked about something you have an interest in at that age, nor the fact that they are 'all individual here', because that will rectify itself in time. Can I just repeat that they are only 12???If they are still the same at 18, with no real clue as to the origins of goth, that will be a bit sad. Note I say 'the origins of goth', as with any scene it evolves and changes. I don't think we have any right to decide what is goth nowadays and what isn't. I just happen to believe that people should have a basic history of the scene they label themselves under, even if that scene isn't the same today. What needs to be addressed is the media portrayal of goth in general that gives kids the idea that you have to conform to a certain ideal to be 'gothic enough'. Its very frustrating that they aren't being given much access to finding out how to be themselves without facing criticism. They need to be taught confidence to be who they it spooky kid, goth, metaller or whatever. They are just trying to find themselves, and I wish them luck in doing so.
Icklepurklegirl orgionally Norfolk resident, now M
Wed Nov 24 15:34:15 2004

seriously, don't put too much emphasis on how you dress etc. all this nu-goth things, *shudders*. listen to the cure. you need to get into thing on your own, not just because people look "realy cool".
Marc, Ipswich
Wed Nov 24 09:09:14 2004

These poeple are not goths and the music mentioned on this news article does not mention ANY goth bands!!! The Media are constantly getting the image of the goth scene wrong!!! They are not goths, they are what is known as Spooky Kids. And there style of clothes looks Sk8r not goth. They are not even doomcookies. Goths wear black and listen to goth music. Examples include Sister of Mercy, Joy Division, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Specimen. Marilyn Manson is Shock Rock, Slipknot is Metal Green Day is californian rock, Good Charlotte is skater music Murder Dolls -dunno what style of music these guys are.
A Goth - Ireland
Wed Nov 24 08:56:45 2004

Yo, You guys are my hero. Will you hang out with me? I think you guys are really cool.
Wed Nov 24 05:16:59 2004

You guys are only 12, you'll figure out what all of this really means to you and you'll realize pretty quick that there's more to this sub-culture than wearing dark clothes and makeup. That's what I thought it was all about at first, then I started to figure some things out. I'm glad you've found a lot of friends to hang out with. It's always nice to have some people to relate to.
Steph - Hoschton
Wed Nov 24 04:03:52 2004

Next week they will be wearing baggy sports clothes and be in to Eminem. JUST WAIT!
Belle, Melbourne Australia
Wed Nov 24 02:44:35 2004

Being different by not being classed as a "townie", but ironically finding indivuality by labelling yourself as a goth.... kids today.
Wed Nov 24 02:44:14 2004

Do whatever you want, just don't claim originality when some of the ways you caught onto being goth were by seeing some kids in the local Mickey D's that "looked really cool".
Laura, Victoria BC
Wed Nov 24 02:43:47 2004

I'm sorry, but that’s rubbish. I started dressing in black about 5 or 6 years ago, I wore the black lipstick and get into Mr. Manson because at that time I could really relate to the lyrics but I've never considered myself a "Goth" even though that’s what I was told I was by other people. Nowadays I wear whatever I want but I still listen to alternative music and enjoy it but I can listen to anything from Children of Bodom to Good Charlotte, of course, I get called a “poser” for it but you get past the point of caring and begin to feel more comfortable with yourself.
Melissa, Scotland
Wed Nov 24 02:29:15 2004

To be Goth is to be BORN different. Wear what thou wants. To hell with thou others. Speak out. Don't hold back. Be what thou wants to be.
THE LIGHTKEEPER, Pennsylvania,U.S.A.
Wed Nov 24 02:20:20 2004

Erm... all these replies are stupid, they are either pandering to the whole "i'm so individual" thing or there a knee jerk reaction to 12 yearolds... *12YEAR OLDS* discovering new music.. you have to start somewhere.. and every one of the people posted on here started listning to something before they dug deeper... and so what they obviously realise that they dress the same as others, it seems the peer groups they are in dress the same, therefore they must be aware that there not some individual goth messiah... you guys should liven up... THERE 12 FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!
Wed Nov 24 02:02:29 2004

OK, so there are new people who are into popular "gothic" music and fashion. That's almost interesting, although I'm pretty sure it's happened before. But "gothic" is far deeper than this and especially in literature; if the timeless classics of Edgar Allan Poe, Mary Shelley, H.P. Lovecraft express anything, it is that there is a disturbing borderlands between fact and emotion, reason and romance, science and fantasy.
Lev Lafayette, Melbourne, Australia
Wed Nov 24 00:55:43 2004

Fisrt off I'd like to say that it's really cool that there are a whole bunch of younger kids getting into manson and murderdols and cradle of filth and stuff.its good to see that.there arent very many young kids listening to that or looking like that.i love it!i personally wouldnt classify myself as a goth, but everyone else seems i guess i am?having my experiances of being ridiculed and teased on a daily basis my advice for you is not to le it get to you.its good that youre different and not following the trends of todays world. nevermind the fact that the trend of this generation sucks.after looking at some specific comments id have to say that even if there are millions of people out there, there are ways to make yourself different than everyone else.for example 99.9%of the population here in cameron park is following the making yourself goth or punk is making yourself kids keep it up.
Wed Nov 24 00:34:51 2004

Shame the music is'nt as good as it used to be!
R!K, EDinburgh
Tue Nov 23 23:46:16 2004

Wow, this is so funny. an 8 year old gothic kid. You guys look like make-up waring pixies, and should shove a stake into their black bleeding hearts,while listening to punk/gothic bands like Good charlotte and Green Day!!! But wait Shadow Mercy cast a spell to save himself, while Lord Mercy hangs at Mc Donalds with his friends listening to Dimmu Borgir! and Misery Whispers, thats sounds like a Movie staring Mel Gibson.
Chris, ocean springs
Tue Nov 23 23:44:36 2004

Rock or raver Indie or hiphopper Goth or glam... None of it matters as long as you are true to yourself.
Mik, Melbourne
Tue Nov 23 23:42:12 2004

I think you guys are pretty cute... and also pretty clueless. But, at the end of the day it takes a lot of balls to stand out from the crowd at any age and I respect that. You guys have to start somewhere but I do hope you try to learn more about the culture you claim to be a part of... None of the bands you mentioned are goth, strictly speaking.
Steve Underdog.
Tue Nov 23 23:38:24 2004

dont any of you guys like S Club Juniors?
Tue Nov 23 23:04:19 2004

Being a goth is not defined by wearing black clothes, black nail varnish and eyeliner. Being a goth isn't really anything. The type of music or the way you dress doesn't really define what you are. You can like typical 'goth' music but still like adidas. Being goth is just something you feel, not something to bost about, other don't bost about being 'townies', why do goth's bost?
Anna, Essex
Tue Nov 23 22:49:10 2004

I'm not a gothic girl... but i love the gothic life style...
Marry Cherry, Brazil
Tue Nov 23 22:43:16 2004

Lord Mercy is just to cool to have a picture! And my mum wont let me were wite face paint whats that about!
Henry London
Tue Nov 23 22:40:39 2004

I thought goth was bands like Jesus and the mary chain, The Cure, The Birthday Party/Nick Cave and Sisters of Mercy etc not all these terrible kiddy metal/punk bands. I might be wrong
Tue Nov 23 22:19:37 2004

Ok guys and girls, the comment "Goths love wearing black - whether it's black clothes or make-up because they like to look different from other people." you all look the same! its just pure imaturity, Its just because you cant attention so you try to be asentric, its so awfall i feel sorry for you. By the way Good Charlotte arnt gothic there Comershial Punk-rock which also shows that your imature. Take it easy.
Kristopher, Bath
Tue Nov 23 22:16:35 2004

I slightly went through this when I was in a similar school year. I'm now 18 and realise that you don't need to dress like a kindergoth to appreciate the music you like. I wear normal jeans and t-shirts and yet my favourite bands are Marilyn Manson, Machine Head, Hatebreed etc. I love my heavy metal and my rock music but have grown out of all black clothes and black lipstick. I feel quite sorry for the young children who dress this way as they don't fully understand what being a 'goth' is all about. Bless them all.
krissy, derby
Tue Nov 23 21:21:45 2004

how can u call yourself goths? your so young, and have nothing to rebel against, plus the music u listen to really isnt goth. cheer up goth.
bythethroat, surrey
Tue Nov 23 21:20:35 2004

well y dnt u stop all this sillyness and become a PIXIE thats right a PIXIE!!!!!
kate holland
Tue Nov 23 21:18:38 2004

Don't worry, you'll grow out of it!
Tue Nov 23 20:34:48 2004

cut them a bit of slack guys the're only 12
Emily london
Tue Nov 23 20:34:32 2004

Being "goth" is an attempt at nonconformity by conformity. Notice how clothes and makeup were emphasized in this article. A majority of these "goths" are just as superficial as many of the "preppy" people, who they despise so much. But hey, they're kids. It's natural for them to get caught up in these fads. Also, just a note: Good Charlotte is a band worshipped by little teeny boppers in sparkly abercrombie tee shirts. Thank you.
Tue Nov 23 20:11:10 2004

well first of all good charlotte are awesome. secondly most people are goths because they want to be noticed not because they want to shy away. loud music, pretty obvious clothes, makes sense. it may not be being different from everyone but it makes you the minority and makes people stop and look at you. when does that ever happen to a kid in a lacoste tracksuit!
joe, birmingham
Tue Nov 23 18:36:02 2004

We all started out like this when we were younger. They'll evolve into "real" goths later on
Tue Nov 23 18:03:44 2004

I think it's fine to be a goth because I like dressing in black myself but I'm shocked that some people like you guys know at year 7. I was still a 'pink lady' in year 7. I only discovered that I liked black when I started year 10 and people at my school give me dirty looks on non-school uniform days so I don't like to show that I like black. I don't consider myself a goth even though I would really love to be one we don't as a family have the financial things for getting new clothes. I don't like slip knot because I think that they are not people who make music. You cannot even call what noise that they make music. It's a lot of screaming and shouting swear words just to sound cool. Then again I'm not sayign that I'm hard myself because I like soft rock like Evanescence, Silverchair and Linken Park so what ever you like is fine I guess from all different eyes and different perspectives. So rock on dudes and have a good life.
Moira ,Norwich
Tue Nov 23 16:55:51 2004

The Goth lifestyle is great, Personally I don't dress all in black..But I like most of the bands. I absolutely detest Townies/Kevs Grrr
Josh, Taunton, Somerset
Tue Nov 23 16:40:12 2004

This makes me kinda sad(in the sarcastic kinda way),first of all,Dimmu Borgir is NOT from Germany,they are from Norway,and if you really like a band you know were they are from too! And second of all,a goth is a life enjouyer to a certain point,a philosopher.He/seh looka upon life as something gloomy and dark with some happy moments,and looks upont what comes after as something beautiful and nice.Many goths use much of their time on music,very often classical or soemthing symphinic,and very often metal too.Many of them study occultism but keep themselves on the good side.Many goths are slo christians too.You dont have to wear all black clothes and wear a lot of black eya make-up to be a goth. Another thing is that I dont think a 12 year old kind can go around and say he or she is a goth,there is alot more than just a different style to being goth,wich I personally dont think a 12 year old kid could posess... But this is just my personal opinion...
Tue Nov 23 14:57:01 2004

goth started in england, if i remember correctly (unless ive been misinformed) as an extension of punk. guys, ive seen too much 'us and them' stuff to care anymore - yeah i dress in all the garb when im out, but not all the time, im too old for all that now (!). love life and yourself. townie-hating just gets you and your friends lumped in an anti-social clique and soon enough it gets old!
Laura, Cardiff
Tue Nov 23 14:55:09 2004

Man... they're so gothic! YEAH! I want to be just like them :)
Stu, Kent, UK
Tue Nov 23 13:55:19 2004

dimmu borgir are from norway...also...too much obsession with clothes, dont worry about it!theres more to alternative life than how you look you know!
martin, ipswich
Tue Nov 23 13:00:16 2004

oh yeah, i totally agree! good charlotte are my favorite band and they are so gothic punk!
Tue Nov 23 12:48:50 2004

Goth is an attidude, not a fashion statement, even though i am not a goth myself, many of my friends are and they have strong beliefs, so i dont think that you lot really are goths
Lucy, bath
Tue Nov 23 12:39:16 2004

Good Charlotte?? ok what ever rocks your boat!! im a goth but a bit different then the rest displayed. i do alot more make up and different cloths. Jo
Jo- portsmouth
Tue Nov 23 12:32:20 2004

Im a big heavy metal fan and i listen to slipknot,korn,marilyn manson,hatebreed,murderdolls,cradle of filth and alot more but i dont wear makeup and dress just in black. sure i love the colour black but wats the point of wearin makeup and "trying to look different" from everyone else?? when infact ur just looking like all the other goths, ur ment 2 belive in individuality but u dress the same as others...
Tue Nov 23 11:09:28 2004

Just be yourselves, if you like Goth style clothing etc go for it. Much better than the sheep like lets look down on everything burberry wearing massive who seem t o have jumped on the comments so far.
Sid, Cambridge
Tue Nov 23 10:59:05 2004

Not to be too downbeat about the whole thing but surely in a world populated by over 6 billion people, being an individual is an unrealistic goal. Being yourself is all that really matters. You don't need to like music at all if you don't want to. Dress how you want, listen to what you want but don't ever think you're being an 'individual'. It's downright arrogant to be honest. Some might even say that if you find yourself drawn to these obvious cliques you're much less of an individual than those that blend into the background a little bit more. Just a thought.
Chris, Durham
Tue Nov 23 10:20:20 2004

Josh, Jessica and Anton love black clothes, black eyeliner and black nail varnish. Why? Because they're goths. does anyone have any idea how sad it sounds, and this;Here they write about life as a goth in Norfolk. there are 'goths' everywhere but they don't feel they have to do things on the internet to feel like they should prove a point and say 'yer im goth i like marilyn manson, i rule!!!. Seriously.... 'My advice to people who want to become a goth is don't be too cocky.' its not about whether your cocky or not, everyone's cocky deep down, everyone gives cheek to people... just go outside, be yourself, gothic or not, and have fun with your life, whatever you wear... Maybe i should do somehting like this instead of Being a Goth in Nofolk maybe I should be, Whats its like to Be a Wingless Angel in Bedfordshire? Nah sad ain't it??? Just like this in my opinion. but it is just my opinion, and it dosn't really matter...not really anyway. Well done to the people involved in this, I know many pople are embarrased by this coz they feel you have a point to prove, i agree. I wouldn't call it goth. But if this is what makes you guys happy then go for it. Good luck with whatever you do in your 'life's', enojy!!!....
Wingless Angel, Bedfordshire
Tue Nov 23 09:55:40 2004

these little kids are no goths, just tryhards
lauren, sydney australia
Tue Nov 23 09:37:40 2004

i can totally relate to these people and know what it feels like to be alienated from your peers and being pigeonholed by how you look. misery isnt a choice. misery finds you, and you deal with that any way you can. besides, black is way cool and townies suck.
Mephister, Sheffield
Tue Nov 23 09:26:27 2004

If that's what will make them happy (as it were), then they can do what they want. It's not what I'd call goth, then again I'm probably not what others would call goth. My parents thought that I was going through a phase and that was nearly twenty years ago! Goth fits me like a black glove. If they grow out of it then they were just flirting with the darkness that lives within us all (read: humanity, ie not just goths in general), if they don't then I hope that maturity brings out the greater goth within. Education, life experience and enlightenment all make for better people. Good luck guys!
Kierin, Sydney
Tue Nov 23 08:55:47 2004

Eeee ^_^ Oh the outpourings of teenage angst. Listen, little ones. Stop criticising each other. Enough of the 'I'm more goth/punk/individual than you' No more the 'Oh I'm so depressed because no-one understands me/loves me/will bite me and make me an immortal' Stop the 'It's not a fashion, it's a way of life' Because, let's face it, if it weren't fashion, we'd all be wearing jogging trousers and nice comfy jumpers. Stop trying to draw a line that neatly classifies everything. Some hard dance music is far more goth than the glorified pop stars mentioned. Don't take yourselfedf so seriously, because others sure as hell won't. Have fun, wear what you want, listen to what you like, do what makes you feel good. Now, where did I put my Rasmus hoodie...
Sparkleboy, Portsmouth
Tue Nov 23 04:10:47 2004

'Marilyn Manson, Slipknot, Green Day, Good Charlotte'? Sounds like no-good punks to me.
Vanity, a dark hole under the floorboards.
Tue Nov 23 04:08:21 2004

Goth isn't about wearing make-up and listening to cheesy ass nu-metal bands. It's not about buying glamour S&M clothes at Hot Topic either. It's a stolen sub-culture from Germany, that's all, just something for rebellious idiot pubescent teens to indulge theirselves in..
Tyler, Colorado
Tue Nov 23 03:32:11 2004

Babygoths... they should visit some Gothic festivals in Belgium or Germany and discover the rich tradition of guitar-based AND synthesizer based Gothic music. And maybe read some books and think for themselves. Pete the Gothic Philosopher, 34
Pete from Belgium
Tue Nov 23 03:14:07 2004

hey folks. Um. It isn't really individualistic if you're all doing the same style is it? You shouldn't have to define yourself through clothing. My hair is dyed black and I don't have to label myself. Listen to some David Bowie. Be yourself
jake from jersey
Tue Nov 23 02:45:03 2004

"Mommy, I want to be a nonconformist, so I'm going to dress like those people over there. That'll show everyone."
Tue Nov 23 02:45:02 2004

good god its more of a cliche disease then i remembered. these children are not goth. im sure they dont even know the first thing about the sub culture. they said it themselves, they saw kids that they thought looked cool and hence they jumped on the bandwagon. its so rediculous that theyve convinced them selves of their non conformity when intruth they are conformed.
drea u.s.a.
Tue Nov 23 02:04:26 2004

Awww, how cute. They're not goth, just a bunch of spooky kids.
Tue Nov 23 02:01:26 2004

you people rock. goth is amazing. you inspired me to change my name from pete to mystyk death
mystyk death
Tue Nov 23 01:05:15 2004

Being a Goth used to be an original form of expression, but now there are so many "goths" it is no longer original and I find most goths to be depressing and really hard to be around because they usually only talk about negative or disturbing things. Those are my thoughts... I still don't care about how you dress, what you listen to or whatever, it's just not for me.
Caleb Schlachter Calgary, Canada
Tue Nov 23 00:42:30 2004

I can't believe that in all the comments here, from all the people professing a love of 'goth' music, no-one has mentioned Joy Division. Poor old Ian topped himself. How far does a goth have to go to get credibility with you people? As far as the rest of it goes - do what you want, kids. You're only this young once, and at least you're not listening to Britney.
Azazel - Australia
Tue Nov 23 00:00:35 2004

i personaly have nothing against how people dress or what they listen to its opinion and you wouldnt like it if u got peanalised for your opinion. so what if they listen to metal and dress like a goth they can dress how ever they want i mean dressing in black doesnt neceserialy mean ur a goth i mean some people just like dressing in black cause its a nice colour and i have to agree its a dark and mystirious colour and i like it. and when it comes to music you dont have to listen to a certain type of music to be some one i mean u can b the most depressed person in the word and still listen to something like busted. but what music you listen to can affect your mood. and probly like most people have said now there young and experimenting they might change they might not it what they decide is important because its there life.
Jess, Hampshire
Mon Nov 22 23:56:10 2004

Awe bless, baby bats! least they're not chavs or townies....but one day they will realise that goth isnt what they think it is.
KJ , Cardiff
Mon Nov 22 23:46:33 2004

All these kids that think they're being unique, creative, and individual, I hope they one day realize that the bands they listen to, the way they dress, and the way they act is just as commercialized as the rest of mainstream society. You're nothing special, you're all just tag-alongs, including "punks" "goths" and the newer "emo" kids. You all think you're being individuals and you've got your heads so far up your butts you don't see the bigger picture. The same corporations who push brand name clothes and pop music and entertainment on mainstream society are the same corporations that signed your little bands to begin with. Individuals? I think not... You're gonna grow up and realize that you don't have to express yourself to others through your music or clothes. Be content with yourself and don't hold grudges on society. After all, you're all the same as the rest of them, in one way or another, whether you admit it or not...
Jeff, US
Mon Nov 22 20:59:03 2004

Same window, different visual.
Liam: Swindon
Mon Nov 22 20:56:01 2004

Wow thats so fresh and diffrent. All trying so hard to be so different yet all ending up looking exactly the same. Its pathetic.
Mon Nov 22 20:18:56 2004

Ah hell with it, let them enjoy themselves while they don't have anything more serious to worry about, thats the fun of being young. Just remember to not take yourself too seriously (pointless saying to a teenager i know). Oh yeah, try a few of the heavier bands mentioned on here, Carcass etc, might set your head banging.
Ant, London
Mon Nov 22 17:45:09 2004

This isnt goth. The Cure are goth not this nu metal ********
Ed, Manchester
Mon Nov 22 17:40:57 2004

Dump the trashy punk - pick up a few good punk CDs. I recomend Aus Rotten, Crass, Rudimentary Peni, and Blanks 77.
Mon Nov 22 17:33:41 2004

I hate this whole "goth" culture. I aint even going to start becuase i'll never finish. Basicaly i used to think it was cool, did the black clothes and all that, but its just a phase you grow out of it. I started getting in to oldschool hardcore and it opend my eyes alot, it isn't about what you look like or how you act its about the music and what it means to you. Its not a fashon show and i dont care what you say it is or it wouldnt be massed produced and sold in shops all over the place.
Mon Nov 22 17:29:15 2004

Awww! Cute! Babygoffs who I desperately hope will one day realise that Slipknot et al are not Goth bands and discover some of the better bands out there (big hint 'The Merry Thoughts'). However, at least they aren't a bunch of Burberry apes and that is a good thing in my book.
Mon Nov 22 17:16:18 2004

I've been reading some of the comments and I think some of you guys are being far too harsh. These kids are only 12 after all, they need to experiment - that's what being a kid is all about! They may 'grow out of it', but they might decide to stick with it, and to be honest who cares. These guys just need to stop doing what I did at their age - they're too keen to pigeon hole themselves. I used to hate townies, but now find I get on with quite a few. It's not a case of what music they listen to or how they dress, it's a case of their personality. You can get a goth who's an absolute idiot, and you can get a townie who is really nice. You just need to see past the clothing. After all you don't wanna be judged yourself, so why judge others. All you people who have commented in a negative way should get off your high horses and remember that you're not helping things by being patronising and hurtful. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe it's people like you that these kids are trying to escape.
Joanne, Leicester
Mon Nov 22 17:13:13 2004

I honestly don't care for opinions of individuals on the topic. However, I do think it would be a good idea if the people at the BBC and in the media would stop trying to classify something which, lets be honest, can never be classified properly because there are far to many definitions referring to the kind of sub cultures. Architecture, novels, that's the kind of mesage should be spreading, not personaility orientated ones.
Mon Nov 22 17:13:05 2004

I remember my goth days, I had a black mohican and wore make up even to go to the shops. And I was a second generation Goth, not even an original (so I'm talking mid to late 90s) so let's just stop this nonsense that it's all a fad. It's a youth movement that's been going for over 20 years and I still listen to the Sisters, the Cure, Nine Inch Nails and the Neo goth bands like Razed in Black, Goteki and the likes. And now I'm a 36 year old Librarian
Dez, Birmingham
Mon Nov 22 17:08:41 2004

Nightwish are boss. Oh, and so are The Cure and Lacuna Coil.
Lotte, Manchester
Mon Nov 22 17:07:48 2004

being a goth isn't all about wearing black..........some of my friends wear pink.....its not what you wear but the music we listen also a witch/vampire. some people e.g townies and scallys have the wrong idea what goth is i get dumb questions about me being a satanist and its funny to make things up and get a reaction...........heh heh.
Merrick Mayfair-Hell
Mon Nov 22 17:02:42 2004

It's quite interesting to see all the points of view, but that's basically the problem. Like almost any other modern cultural term "Goth" means different things to different people. Obviously those that have been around longer will have a better general idea of what 'Goth' is, but that doesn't mean that those that started attaching the 'Goth' tag to whatever band they currently like this week as being 'Goth' are necessarily wrong. The ones that are "in the wrong", so to speak, are those that state that their perception of what goth is as cold, hard fact. Just for the record though, the original modern cultural term 'Goth' ORIGINALLY came from punk, it was originally called Posi(tive) Punk, and had nothing to do with Metal or New Romatics. Anyone that says otherwise simply wasn't there at the time. And don't bring up the 'sacking of Rome' or 'architecture' into the argument because they're definitions of a different type of 'Goth', just as the word 'Gay' doesn't automatically mean happy and cheerful anymore: if you insist that it does then you're just making yourself look like a pedant. Labelling it as "a fad that they'll grow out of" are just naieve and patronising too. They may well grow out of it, although I think I've been told that for the past 20 years or so and haven't yet done so, but then it's not as if I'm suddenly going to stop doing what I enjoy doing. I don't cringe when I look back at old photos because I've enjoyed every minute of being a Goth thus far.
Alexander from London
Mon Nov 22 16:53:34 2004

Dimmu Borgir are from Norway
Mon Nov 22 16:42:18 2004

its clear that spookykids are slowly seeping into what peoples perception of goth is. you dont have to be depressed, you dont always have to wear black, you dont always have to have that 'im so moody and messed up' look on your face, you dont have to wear eyeliner that makes you look like a panda or that youve put it on with the lights off...and the whole satanism thing just takes the biscuit. give it a few years, when theyve moved away from everything that is stereotypically goth and got their heads out of marilyn mansons backside, they'll look back and think what the hell was i thinking? im not saying its a fad, im just saying when your wise to the rubbish like murderdolls and everyone pretending to be depressed for the sake of being 'oh so goth' you'll realise you were being stupid..but then some never get over that initial stage...bless them.
A. united kingdom
Mon Nov 22 15:36:44 2004

I hope they grow up to realise that Slipknot and Marilyn Manson aren't goth bands, they're metal bands. I was listening to metal when I was their age and I wore some makeup too, but I was a metal fan, not a goth. Years later I got into bands such as the Sisters of Mercy, the Mission and Fields of the Nephilim. The evolution of these bands in the British scene today are bands such the Church of Nightbreed's Midnight Configuration and Skeletal Family. Gothic rock doesn't really exist much any more as it's evolved into Darkwave. I have no problem with people liking many genres of music, as what's the point being nonconformist by being goth and then conforming to the tired stereotypes of that subculture? My wardrobe may be filled with black clothes, but I have also have many colourful clothes that glow under UV. I adore gothic music, but my main musical vice is the electro side of the gothic scene, Electro-Industrial, Futurepop or EBM (the forerunners here being bands such as VNV Nation, Covenant,Icon of Coil and the like). There's very little goth about electronic music, but why not just enjoy it anyway? Wearing a Slipknot t-shirt in a goth club however won't help you make friends. I also regularly DJ at Wales' longest running goth night known as Inquisition, and we play a wide variety of music and have many different types of people attending, not all of them are goths and appear more like ravers.. but can't we all just get along..? My main hope is that these teens will come to realise how clichéd they are and conform to their own standards instead of someone else's. Love music, as long as it means something
James/cyberKitten01, Wales
Mon Nov 22 15:34:34 2004

awwww... bless! :) Not being picky though, but to be a goth it would help if you listened to some goth bands, you don't seem to have heard of any. Still... awwwww :)
Al, Wales
Mon Nov 22 15:25:44 2004

Goth is dead. Long live emo.
Edward Franklin.
Mon Nov 22 15:17:56 2004

Wow, yay to conformity.
Mon Nov 22 15:16:36 2004

At least they arent chav's and wearing Burberry. And at least theres some variation in what music they listen to. Not like that dance rubbish that chavs listen to. As you can probably tell i dont like chavs.
Mon Nov 22 14:57:24 2004

Do what you like, kids. It does make me laugh when people say "this is *goth*, this isn't *goth*". Yeah, whatever ... as long as you enjoy yourself does it really matter?
Tam fae Edinburgh
Mon Nov 22 14:51:25 2004

Individuality is better than being a goff! I never went as far as doing make up or anything like that, I just wore baggies and hoodies (still do actually, but without degrading myself with make up or scene crap). When I got clubbing or to gigs, I just concentrate on having fun! Mind you, emo is the new goth where these idiots seem to think it's cool to be depressed and angry. On a MySpace profile I saw an emo kid's interests list. Screaming, being depressed and crying were among them *rolls eyes* Have fun while it lasts, but the sooner you grow out of the scene, you'll do fine! :)
Jimsicle, London
Mon Nov 22 14:50:59 2004

Only in Norfolk....
Mon Nov 22 14:44:55 2004

Wow you guyz rock i try to be a goth but i need some advice any pointers ?! Thanks
Mon Nov 22 14:44:30 2004

I don't know whether to laugh or cry reading this 'article'. Everybody has to start somewhere but you kids have it all wrong. First off the music you listen to is not 'goth' all. It is called nu-metal or shock rock. Just because the misinformed mass media,MTV, calls it 'goth' doesn't make it so. By wearing bad make-up and wearing black just to shock your parents you are making yourselves into a walking stereotype. One that makes older goths cringe everytime they see your type walking down the street. Do some research online into actual goth bands. You will find that what you are perceiving as 'goth' isn't at all. One of you mentioned 'don't be ccocky'. Well....having made up pretentious names for yourselves is cocky as hell.Wearing black and calling yourselves 'satanic' doesn't make you 'goth',instead it makes you seem ignorant about something that you are trying so hard to be. Stop it...please.
Mon Nov 22 14:39:40 2004

dimmu borgir hails from Norway, not Germany... All great Metal comes from Norway and Sweden (som Finish metal is ok)
shagrath, Norway
Mon Nov 22 14:38:15 2004

I have seen this so many times before with children around year 7/8. I am a teacher at a local school and it's interesting to watch the children divide themselves i to cliques and show this through their 'style'. This phase most children will grow out of around by the time they leave school and mature. It is childrens way of rebelling against their parents and the school system and in a way it's kind of cute what they do. The new introduction of the 'goth' scene into popular culture recently has started to get these kids interested, it's nothing new really and it will go again as quickly as it came.
Lorna, Manchester
Mon Nov 22 14:03:29 2004

Most of the comments here appear to be either a bit too nit-picking or pointing-and-laughing in mode. Yes people, most often adolescents, will always seek a diversity of "sub-conformities" or "tribes" to align theselves with and many of them will find they become pooled together by others despite their cries of individuality. And yes, we've all probably done it in one shape or form. (why those trainers particularily eh?) On a simple clothing/uniform basis I see it as a way to develop your own style without too much exposure of your own bad taste. A few mistakes along the way are probably a good thing. I always understood 'goths' to be intelligent, literate, self aware and very irony-conscious. Everybody like a bit of pretension now and again (I assume you're still reading) but it can get a bit pot calling the kettle deadly nightshade. get a grip. Most people probably could do with a bit of nihilism in their lives and certainly a bit of self-deprecation. Just watch out; most decent (anti-)styles become mainstream fashion eventually; Whilst a teenager, myself and some friends took up army surplus gear as a look/statement ( after 60s mods, Jimi Hendrix, The Clash, Public Enemy et al), some years later Gap, French Connection and most of the high street did the same after Katherine Hamnett and others did the catwalk version. ho hum. I won't go into music further than to say the best goth bands denied all connection, naturally, but also tipped a hat to their influences too. my brief period of goth-ishness took me further back to the Iggy and the Stooges, Rolling Stones, Velvet Underground, Led Zeppelin, early blues stuff, Joy Division, The Cramps and many other more culty bands, also it helped me develop a taste for more avant garde "difficult" music and pointed me in the direction of a few good books too. If I could offer any tip, it is to take everything with a pinch of salt, avoid all the tarot,rune stone, witchy rubbish and cultivate a personality of your own. If you're a music fan learn and instrument and discover all the other scales and chords that are available....
Stuart, Essex
Mon Nov 22 14:00:43 2004

dont worry, you'l grow out of it! id stop with the attempts at doing spells, nasty stuff and i would advise it at all. also, quit spending money on girls clothes and makeup, get some music in your system. its not about image, its about the music! i dont like metal but im a big fan of punk and we are unfortunatly grouped into the same section!your just gunna get beaten up looking like that so just quit whilst your a head!
Ed, bournemouth
Mon Nov 22 13:59:18 2004

This has been great. Of late I've thought of returning to the gently rolling hills of Norfolk, but woo there tiger, had I forgotten the trapped souls that habituate those gentle hills? Oh yes, it all comes drifting back now, the tennage yearning to distinguish myself from the rabble of odd folk. Townies, Tractor Drivers, etc, all lost in the taupor that is country life. Is it any wonder when Norfolk is the end of the line baby, nowhere to go from there, oh no, no passing trade, no communication, everyone there is there because they wanted to be, or were lucky enough to be born there. All you got to do is start a healthy little line in sarcasm, and indifference, in short carry on in your little teen angst routine, you'll turn out just fine.
Gudea well out of Norfolk
Mon Nov 22 13:54:07 2004

Kids be who you want to bem free in your own minds and let so chav tell you otherwise ahem
Maelstrom Portsmouth
Mon Nov 22 13:52:22 2004

Aww cute little Nu-Metal Spooky Kids. They should go to the Whitby Gothic Weekend. They'd hate it.
H, Edinburgh
Mon Nov 22 13:45:30 2004

I think it's more a struggle for self independance...but the only problem is that they are all being independantly the same. It's another group for people to classify themselves as and try to feel safe in. It takes a lot for a person to just stand as themselves without hiding behind a mask. Whether it be their makeup and black clothes or their beautiful dresses and diamond necklaces. We're all in a struggle to prove to everyone else that we are our own person that we just fall into these stereotypes. Sometimes we grow out of it and sometimes we grow futher in to it. I do find it a little upsetting that these kids have to change who they are and call themselves different names to be happy but I guess everyone finds themselves differently.
Sarah, WA
Mon Nov 22 13:41:09 2004

Sadly, I have to admit I was almost as sad as you when I was that age. The bad music and badly applied make up will eventually fade, for most of you, don't worry. Spells? Aha, okay. I'm still called a goth today from time to time, although I would not lable myself one. I find most 'goths' of that age are pretty ignorant to other music, fashions and people who don't look like them. It's rude and a little pathetic. Goths are not different. Get over it.
vicki, leeds
Mon Nov 22 13:39:58 2004

I too wear black clothing. I too once felt out of place and alone. Often times I would cut myself to see if I was alive or still dreaming. I would walk down the halls (before my black clothing days)and I would get made fun of by all the normal kids. Then one day, a boy lent me his cd collection and I became a goth. It fit my life and now I have a place in the world. No one makes fun of me anymore. I have some goth friends. We listen to music and burn candles and incents. It's a good life now I suppose... better than before. I'm 14 years old. I'm a goth.
Billy (USA) "Very Sad Kid"
Mon Nov 22 13:37:15 2004

Wearing black does not make you a Goth it is a way of life, these silly kids are just rying to buy into an image. They are listening to awful nu-metal, Goths do not listen to Slipnot or Murder Dolls who were just created to get financisl gain from such delinquants. As a true Goth I am very offended by this article, it was obviously written by someone who does not have a clue.
Mon Nov 22 13:28:20 2004

I really hope you guys were forced to pose like that in the top picture, it really looks lame. Other than that, go with what you like and if you stick with it, groovy, and if you don't, was an interesting stage!
Sojo, Cardiff
Mon Nov 22 13:20:54 2004

The thing is, we originally dressed in black and looked weird to be different; the music we were listening to was strange and anti-establishment. Now I'm older, I dress 'normally', and it's sad to see that something I was so into is high fashion for so many kids, and their mass produced, sales driven music. Be individual, start dressing like clowns.
Matt, London
Mon Nov 22 12:36:24 2004

Aww cummon, the lil slip-neds arn't doing anyone any harm. Its not as if this particular fashion is going to cause any real cultural waves, the music just isn't good enough, and the 'cause' is not existant. So let the kids dress up and have their fun, there are several substantially more distructive things they could be doing (than dressing/making up in black and listening to woefully derivative music)
Paul, Scotland
Mon Nov 22 12:27:14 2004

Pathetic- Why be a sheep?
Mon Nov 22 12:24:50 2004

Loosing those middle fingers kinda must of hurt - no wonder there both goths! Cheer up little spooky kids! Only another 348 days until Haloween comes around again!
Marilyn, A Dark Place (Milton Keynes)
Mon Nov 22 12:22:07 2004

My favourite goth band is Kefranski. They do a cover of "Don't Look Back Into the Sub", which is exactly the same as the Libertines version but at the end they finsih by shouting "aah, you looked" and belming, demonstrating the geometry of contempt. I've been to Norwich a few times and think it is a very vibrant scene (or "deathbrant" as we should more likely call it). The best venue for doom-core is the Bell Hotel.
Lucy Waterman, Bicester
Mon Nov 22 12:04:37 2004

I have to say - fair play for wanting to be different, but like many other people have said you're going the wrong way about it. You're only 12... so you're getting thing's slightly confused at the moment. You contradicted yourself by saying you wanted to be different, but then saying how you thought a bunch of Goths you saw "Looked Cool". Wearing black lipstick, black clothes and black nail varnish doesn't make you a 'goth'. I wear all that, but I also have days when I like to wear bright colours or clear nail varnish! I wear what I feel like on the day - I don't care what anyone wants to label me as! I mainly listen to heavy music (Industrial being my favourite), but I also listen to trance and techno! It looks to me like you think 'goths' look cool and they get a lot of attention... and you're young, so you want to experiment... I say fair enough, but going round saying things like "non-townie stuff" and mentioning you're mother making you remove you're white make-up will only make other people see you as attention seekers. You cannot label other people unless you are prepared to be labelled yourselfs. You have been influenced to dress like you do - we all are. I dress like you most of the time, but that's because I want to and feel most happy to, not just to look cool and for attention. I would also like to point out - Dimmu Borgir are from Norway, but if you want to listen to some really class German music then I would reccomend checking out Rammstein. ;) Stand up for you opinions though, and don't be afraid to stand out. Just don't make a fool of yourself as you do it. :)
Kirsty, Kidderminster.
Mon Nov 22 12:04:03 2004

it's good to see that you're doing your own thing - particularly impressed that you went back and listened to something else by an artist you weren't that impressed with first time around. takes guts to admit you were wrong first time around, so kudos for that. as to what's 'goth' or not, don't worry about it. labels are only for those on the outside looking in - and you're on the inside looking out. there's more to life than confining yourself. just listen to whatever floats your boat, wear whatever you're happy wearing, and be yourselves. it's not about one-upmanship, or being 'more goth than you' - think spinal tap's 'none more black' line and you'll figure out for yourselves how ridiculous it can get. bah. and there's me trying not to give advice. still, if you're into that side of things, i'd recommend fields of the nephilim for some real old-school gothic immensity (plus it'll appeal to the occult side of your interests, too) and celldweller for possibly the best stuff i've ever heard ever (sort of industrial-trance-rock, if you can imagine that). but don't worry about whether or not it's 'goth' enough - just listen to it. you can still wear black and makeup and listen to pop music if you feel like it. and as for the magic(k) side of things, watch yourselves - you'll have a hellluva lot of people trying to tell you the 'right' way to do it. but i'll let you into a litle secret: there is no one 'right' way. there is your way. there are other ways. you do your own thing, make it up as you go along, try new stuff, use whatever works for you, and whatever you do, try to learn from as many sources as possible. but never, ever for one moment trust anyone to tell you that what you do is 'wrong' or isn't the 'right' way to do something. you know best what works for you, not them. but it's worth listening anyway, as sometimes they'll be able to give you some new ideas. it's all a game, so enjoy playing it :)
blades, coventry
Mon Nov 22 11:49:47 2004

greenday and slipknot are not goth. your just posers really. think about it.
Mon Nov 22 11:25:55 2004

Its a silly fad they'll hopefully grow out of, all they bands they listen to are style over substance. Hopefully they can move on to some better bands and realise they don't have to call each other dumb names and wear only black. i guess its all part of growing up.
Scott, Southampton
Mon Nov 22 11:21:29 2004

I'm totally goth. Me and my friend Jo are like gothXcore. We wear nothing but black eyeliner (smudged of course)and mascara. We always wear black and we absolutely LOVE corsets. We only ever go for gothic boys because like everyone else is really preppy. People say we're too shallow to be goths but I love it because we wear make-up and look sexy.
Ellie, from Sydney Australia
Mon Nov 22 10:37:21 2004

Have you noticed that the majority of "Goths" are actually middle class teenagers who don't have to work for anything? I like the music but refuse to wear the stuff that makes the scene. When I go to see Korn and Marilyn I am always startled by how sad they are to be there. You are there to see a band and enjoy yourself. They spend far too much energy trying to appear glum. When I was a teenager into that sort of stuff I was up for fun and being into the scene didn't mean trying to be a clone of the next guy.
Nathan, Wales.
Mon Nov 22 10:33:36 2004

Where are the goths? I just see some kids dressing up as the puppets they see on the TV (call them Marilyn Manson, Dani Filth, or what you want). What happened to Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy or Siouxsie' What have we done to deserve this? And please, don't tell me it's just evolution...
Ferio, Madrid (Spain)
Mon Nov 22 10:15:32 2004

Ok, like Prince Charles I'm elitist. Personally I wouldn't say these are goths but 'Spooky Kids' aka 'Quantum Goths'. I also know some people who are into Magick and isn't an everyday 'thing' and they don't sit around doing magic spells and looking at rune books (it helps reading them too). Also you don't have to be Goffick to do magick. My advice to you is: Study hard, get a degree (I didn't), a well paying job and then you can wear what you like outside work. I'm afraid to get that job 99% of the time you'll have to smarten (suit | tie (ho ho)) yourself up. As for the names/net handle things. They do go round calling each other that. I know people who use their Net names exclusively (Dark Raven is more mysterious than Pauline) and some who don't even know their real names after talking to them for several months online when they finally meet in the flesh. These people are nearer thirty than thirteen too. I too agree with Dogsolitude. Oh well, it made me laugh - back to the grindstone.
Graham 'Mournblade' Reeds, Middlesbrough
Mon Nov 22 09:30:02 2004

funny. even the so-called 'different' ways of life have rules & do's/dont's. when did 'different' became all the same? whatever, have fun kid's.
CW australia
Mon Nov 22 09:19:30 2004

Aww, they're so cute! Can I adopt one and turn it into a real goth, please? Seriously, what you've got there is called a "spookykid".
A, London
Mon Nov 22 08:22:14 2004

Cute little goths! Yay!
Missko, California
Mon Nov 22 05:51:19 2004

Does anyone find the Irony in that? "Goths" are supposed to be anti-trendy, but yet this kid started dressing as a Goth to fit into that exact trend.
Floyd (US)
Mon Nov 22 03:27:45 2004

I like how goths are so individual and non-conformist. Just like all the other goths.
Neil, Bradford
Sun Nov 21 23:41:11 2004

wow, u ppl are sooooo kewl! I luv wearing black too, it makes me so damn interesting!!1111
Goth lover, satans armchair
Sun Nov 21 22:10:49 2004

I'm a welsh goth and proud! My favourite bands are the death babies and midnight fantasy. This site is goth-tastic!
Rhys Llwyd from Aberystwyth
Sun Nov 21 21:16:14 2004

I just feel sorry for them in the summer. All those black clothes must get so hot.
Sun Nov 21 19:36:14 2004

Gee, thanx 4 all tha goth info guys. Now I wanna b a goth 2! GOTH 4 eva!! U guys rok so much. I wish i wuza goth...Ima go 2 hot topic now. bye guyz
Kelsey , Florida
Sun Nov 21 02:47:53 2004

I'm supposedly a cheesy goth. Wear mainly black do I, yet I still have a few bright clothes. Who said all goths have to be eternally miserable? I love the clothes and general principals and I love rock, punk, metal, but I also like jazz and classical. 85% of my clothes are black though. Being a geeky hyper goth is fun.
Maz: Birmingham
Sat Nov 20 17:49:00 2004

well they're obviously trying to fit in, kids do at that age. theres nothing wrong with it until someone older put some perspective on it. But until they grow up let them be the same as a group and conform.
the queen- venus
Sat Nov 20 17:41:04 2004

Punk is most certainly not dead. Sure you don't see it on TV unless it's some documentary knocking the punk icons of all time about how they took drugs and mayhem and stuff, however the punk culture is just as alive today as it was in the 70's/80's. I don't know too much about the whole Gothic culture, but I can say some Goths are damned good looking. It's just a shame someone doesn't get rid of all the neds and chavs and that damned burberry stuff!
Drip, Durham
Sat Nov 20 17:37:37 2004

hiya cuties! long live chavs!
townie ;)
Sat Nov 20 16:57:46 2004

Eeeee they're so cute, they think they're real goths :)
Sat Nov 20 16:02:59 2004

Listen to some Queen Adreena, Lacuna Coil. Everyone here is getting goth music confused with metal. Definitely try Queen Adreena, Katie Jane Garslides voice is beautiful amongst gripping guitar riffs. For metal-goth, try Type O Negative, Morbid Angel, even coal chamber, pantera and static X (think queen of the damned) is good for those learning about the alt scene. Hell, I started with Nirvana and Radiohead.
Kate, Cambs
Sat Nov 20 15:55:32 2004

When I was six I really got into Shakespear's Sister and have been most grimm and true ever since. My current favourite gothic and evil band is Girls Aloud. The ginger one just died her hair black, that's SO GRIMM.
Grimmnacht FEAR, Woking
Sat Nov 20 15:52:55 2004

Awww Bless mini Goths. It's nice to know we're still going strong. Oh and BTW goth was started as a spin off of New Romantics. You also don't become a goth you either are or your not.
Azrael Cambridgeshire
Sat Nov 20 15:43:50 2004

My, don't we all need to get out more!!! Sure, I've worn makeup and looked ridiculous (over 6 foot and built like a brick outhouse doesn't really match the rest of the look). Still, it was what I was about at the time. Enjoy it and forget all the people who have to focus on your choices because they have nothing of interest in their lives. I can look back with affection at my goth days and still enjoy the music, but trust me, you'll change and that's just part of life. Best bet is to always do what makes you happy and never have any regrets. Oh, and listen to some Creaming Jesus.
Throbbe, Cambs
Sat Nov 20 15:22:06 2004

Neither Goth nor Punk are dead. They're just dead to the people who can't see past top of the pops.
Sat Nov 20 14:34:37 2004

I totally agree with what u wrote. Don't bring other people down by causing trouble. U are soo cute!
Kaz, Devon
Sat Nov 20 13:46:24 2004

Goth is dead, just like punk really.
Sat Nov 20 13:45:19 2004

im goin to see velvet revolver in newcastle too and nightwish in manchester.
Andy Doom, Middlesbrough
Sat Nov 20 13:40:53 2004

Being goth isn't anything to do with just wearing black! Green Day are as about goth as the telly tubbies for a start, slipknot are the biggest bunch of kid comerical rock since ABBA.
Simon Edwards, Cambs
Sat Nov 20 13:39:43 2004

Its funny reading teenagers argue. Ahh, cute...
Dave, Cheshire
Sat Nov 20 13:31:19 2004

I don't have any problems with goths, but I do have a problem with the elitist attitude that 'real' goths seem to have, and the contradictions associated with it. If being a goth is so individual, then why are there so many groups of goths telling others what not to wear, what they should listen to and how they should act? How can a group of goths look 'cool' when that is precicely what most goths are trying to avoid being? Surely these goths are turning into the people they claim to despise? If you want to dress in black and call yourself a goth, do just that. If you want to listen to Busted while appreciating gothic style writing and architecture, then do so. Life is too short to shoehorn yourself into a category to make a statement, but if it fits, enjoy it.
Vyle, Cambridge
Sat Nov 20 13:29:00 2004

I was a goth once. Now I realise how utterly stupid I looked. You don't look different by wearing ragged black clothes that you bought from 'the cool goth shop' in town. You look like all the other kids who bought ragged clothes from 'the cool goth shop' in town. The illusion of somehow being different is entirely false.
Alex Cooper
Sat Nov 20 13:23:05 2004

I'd like to point out Slipknot is not Nu-metal.
Sat Nov 20 13:15:22 2004

Hurrah for goths, they do brighten my day.
Mr Wheatley
Sat Nov 20 13:13:18 2004

As much as id like to rant about how x or y is not Goth, I would like to point out that Dimmu Borgir are Norwegian and not satanic. And named after a rock formation in Iceland.
Bleak, Ireland
Sat Nov 20 12:43:39 2004

Please, learn what a real goth is. Not that you shouldn't listen to what you want but seriously, Marilyn Manson and Dimmu Borgir? Not to mention Greenday. Call a band by it's real genre and go listen to some Christian Death or London After Midnight.
Sat Nov 20 12:19:26 2004

Why do Norwich gothilicks congregate outside Next?
Burberry Bill, Heigham
Sat Nov 20 12:05:01 2004

Yeah people have made valid points but leave them, they're only kids. The main problem here is the term Goth. The dictionary defines it as 'A member of a Germanic people who invaded the Roman Empire in the early centuries of the Christian era'. There is no mention of black clothes, tacky make-up, expressing yourself in various ways - it was simply the term for a German who invaded he Roman empire. Get your facts straight before attaching a label.
Kirsty Hadfield
Sat Nov 20 12:04:42 2004

Listen to all the whiney little princesses - "You're not a real Goth, I am!" or "that's not Goth music, this is...blah blah". Just do whatever you want.
Adam, Scotland
Sat Nov 20 11:57:35 2004

Living in Liverpool, i come across a lot of what we call Scalls, otherwise known as Chavs, Townies etc. I found myself right in their line of fire last month and was beaten up by a gang of them bcoz i wasnt scared by them. Which has added to my hatred of scalls! Whereas Goths or whatever you call urselves i can live with as they don't go round needlessly beaten people up or woteva townies do! However i wuld like to say Good Charlotte aren't goth, they're teeny pop! I can't say im a fan of the music they say they listen to, however, i do listen to alt. rock and luv blur and the chili peppers.
John, Liverpool
Sat Nov 20 11:46:17 2004

Leave them alone you bullying b*******. You are what you are and you are .....
Peace maker, Stockport
Sat Nov 20 11:33:27 2004

I've been a goth for over 13 years now and I see nothing wrong with the lifestyle. I'm well adjusted, have a great, well paying job, and I don't use drugs. Everyone thought goth was a phase I was going through and in some ways it is, like most other lifestyles, it evolves. I wouldn't be surprised to find that these kids hate Manson in a year or so and move on to a different style, as they get into their teens they'll probably go back to "roots" goth and discover the old bands I listened to just as I discovered the bands my older friends listened to. Taking goth at face value, its really just about being tragic and beautiful and listening to some great music. In this world in 2004 there are many dangers out there that kids need to be weary of, being goth is not one of them.
Christina Dallas, Tx USA
Sat Nov 20 11:18:54 2004

Dimmu Borgir are Norse, not Icelandic or German.
Andrew, Bergen Norway.
Sat Nov 20 11:15:55 2004

Kiki, Dimmu Borgir is not a castle.
spastic headbanger
Sat Nov 20 10:21:03 2004

Listen to The Cure and make your hair look like a dead spider, then you are a goth.
Ken Perth
Sat Nov 20 10:07:25 2004

Well, everyone seems to have their own opinions about this. Personally, I couldn't care what everyone's opinions are, so I have decided to state mine. This Goth idea that the kids have is wonderful. I hope they realize that in doing so, they aren't actually being individuals, persay, but are actually choosing to follow an underground cultural path.
Mal' aki The Elder
Sat Nov 20 09:39:21 2004

I never really understood this whole "goth" thing. Goths in my area say its so they dont confrom, well isnt it still conforming? I dont consider myself a goth, I wear metal band shirts, chains, cuffs, blue jeans, and work boots. Yet I get labeled as "Gothic."
Black Label Society, USA
Sat Nov 20 07:54:09 2004

Ask ten goths what 'goth' means, and you'll get eleven different answers.
Sat Nov 20 05:46:18 2004

Dogsolitude, Norwich, you've written the smartest answer yet, and I'd say you're right.
someone with brains
Sat Nov 20 05:36:47 2004

Ah, leave them alone. They're only 12. Lord knows I had some weird ideas about myself at their age, like thinking I could make myself into a 60s Mod.
Miriam, New Zealand
Sat Nov 20 03:11:07 2004

Good on you for trying to be different. In my experience goths tend to be quite nice. And as Becci said, try some Joy Division.
Sat Nov 20 00:48:42 2004

Great you're finding your style and whatever. If you're gonna listen to some good goth music try Deftones, Sex Pistols (they're more Punk but will still do
Jim, London
Sat Nov 20 00:19:09 2004

Go for it kids, i think it is great that you have found something that works for you, and it seems that your folks are cool with it. The three of you are actually getting out there and having a go.
adam, australia
Fri Nov 19 23:56:11 2004

I think its great that you guys have the courage to wear what you are comfortable in and be who you want to be. You are certainly alternative, but Im not sure about goth. Wether you end up actually being part of the goth scene, or some other alternative cullture or even wandering back to mainstream life, be proud that you've had the guts to do whatever the hell you wanted to do. Good luck with it. Oh... and try listening to the cure sometime ;-)
Asheraa, Melbourne, Australia
Fri Nov 19 23:46:09 2004

I don't know where to start. The gothic subculture has inevitably changed and incorporated people such as marilyn manson in it. It's been doing it since the early 80s. I see siouxsie and bauhaus being pioneers but why say that bands from cleopatra are goth? Having said that, it isnt all about the music. It's about the clothing, which is changing. About individualism, sometimes. It's also about the intelligence which seems to be lacking.
Fri Nov 19 23:40:52 2004

Why is this such a big deal? people can like what and whoever they want to however they wish.
spark, chicago
Fri Nov 19 23:16:48 2004

I hate to break it to you but I'm 31, I listen to Green Day, Marilyn Manson, Good Charlotte, The Damned, The Mission and Sisters Of Mercy etc whatever and I'm not a goth or a satanist. I'm me. I was a teenage rebel. I still love The Pixies, The Cure, The Damned and The Mission In fact in just over a weeks time I'm seeing Marilyn Manson live in the US. You can be different and still be individual. I work for one of the biggest pop radio stations in the world - not a fan of the music but respect it. I dress like a GAP ad or a A&F ad but I am my own person. Find YOU and you'll always be cool - whatever anyone says, whatever you wear, or wherever you do for a wage. At 31 you'll all be the same anyway !
Simon Thompson
Fri Nov 19 23:08:07 2004

Have fun - unfortunately reality and normality are only a few years away. Just promise me one thing - be true to yourselves and never ever ever buy a cd by The Mission - they are truly awful.
Stig, Berlin
Fri Nov 19 22:23:39 2004

Oh let them be, I was doing the same thing at their age. It's all part of finding out who you are.
Mitzi, UK
Fri Nov 19 17:51:49 2004

Since when is Green day goth music?
Fri Nov 19 05:23:21 2004

I think it's great that you guys are finding yourselves, and letting yourselves explore different music, styles, and art. Just remember in all of that to do only what you are comfortable with, and to follow your true desires, and not to conform just because you think you have to do something to fit a certain stereotype. As somebody who is just leaving her teenage years, and that went totally to the dark side of things as a pre-teen and teenager, and who is now just into a good mix of everything, I can tell you there's a lot out there that you will miss if you let yourselves become close minded. Life is all about experiences, dark/light colour/no colour happy/sad. Experience it all.
Fri Nov 19 02:08:53 2004

First off, the goth lifestyle literally sucks. Granted, I was goth my freshman year. (On a side note, I'm a senior so I actually have time to say this was a while.) If I said Portrait of an American Family you'd be so confused you'd cry. Save yourself some time and get into music that takes talent. Dimmu Borgir is from Norway, and they're named after a castle.
Tim Neff - Peru, Indiana
Fri Nov 19 01:50:32 2004

Kinda funny, cliched and not exactly "hardcore" but we did dumb stuff like that as kids, let them have fun.
Thu Nov 18 23:17:09 2004

Kids, enjoy it while you can. In three years time you'll cringe at yourselves, but you're only 13 once, run with it. (Oh, but do buy that Cure album. Get yourselves copies of 'Nevermind' or 'Siamese Dream')
Imogen, Kent
Thu Nov 18 22:59:32 2004

The whole idea of dressing in all black and listening to "goth" is a sad attempt to gain attention in a teenage world of insecurity.
Ellen- Ohio, USA
Thu Nov 18 22:22:57 2004

General Chaos needs to stay in school and learn how to spell properly. *smacks him with a ruler* Pay attention in class young man or I'll force you to listen to Britney Spears music while watching reruns of the Brady Bunch in Spanish.
Engligh Teacher
Thu Nov 18 21:53:05 2004

Wearing black does not make you a "goth" - listening to marilyn manson does not make you a "goth".
Frosty, Chester
Thu Nov 18 19:44:00 2004

Being into that "scene" for the past 6 years, let me start by saying, Green Day, Slipknot, Good Charlotte and Marilyn Manson are not goth and never will be goth. Check out Cannibal Corpse, Children of Bodom, Rotting Christ, Morbid Angel, Marduk, The Cure. I'm not a goth myself, but I feel if something is to be done, it should be done right.
Mark, Glasgow
Thu Nov 18 19:07:33 2004

Hold on - good charlottes? Thats just pop with make up on boys. Also why does everyone nowadays associate "gothism" with music? It has nothing to do with it. Expressing your own personal feelings by the way you dress? Does anyone else think it is strange that all these kids express their PERSONAL feelings exactly the same way as each other? General Chaos....Avril Lavigne is not punk, or rock, or goth. She is pop, and yes i do like one of her songs, so she is the better style of pop. But please don`t call her goth. She isn`t. Marilyn manson sold out after Holywood. Murderdolls should of stayed underground. Dimmu Borgir, thats fair enough. I`m not trying to pick faults, I just hate it when 'goths' say they`re expressing individual feelings yet they act alike, dress alike, watch the same movies and listen to the same music as each other. Take what Marilyn Manson said and "Set fashion, not follow" keep dressing how you are if you must, i wont tell you not to, but don`t claim its your personal thing because it isn`t. I would love to see you kids do soemthing original to express yourself. I really would. x
Oneel, Somerset
Thu Nov 18 18:42:33 2004

Look up romantic gothic culture of the 80's there real goths. Its not about wearing black or anything its the culture and slipkont and evanesence aint the culture, im part of alot of cultures mainly black metal and cyber culture. I went to norfolk with my gf recently and i got glared at by even the 'goths' i surrgest u lot catch up coz ur lagging by years lol
Thu Nov 18 18:27:56 2004

my oh my what a cliche
Shannon, birkenhead
Thu Nov 18 17:05:29 2004

Have any of you ever heard of Sisters of Mercy, Fields of the Nephlim, Joy Division? So many of you are missing the point of what "goth" really is! Slipknot isn't even gothic, it's Nu-metal. Not only that but it is such a mis-representation to assume that goths are satanic because most of the goths i know are not. We don't need labels.I don't label myself even though I listen to alternative music. However I do agree that townies are not very nice.
Becci, Redhill
Thu Nov 18 16:49:22 2004

your cool..... i want a super cool nickname!
Dan, Ellesmere Port
Thu Nov 18 16:11:09 2004

my reel names pete and im a goth but im like a cool goth. i ware my black cloths all the time but so i fit in at sckool i wear sk8r clothes too and i only weark makeup when i see a hot guy around. i like goth bands like marily manson and avril lavigne cuz they roxx!!! im not very good at wearing my make-up so i get my mum to show me sumtimes. ur article roxx!
general chaos
Thu Nov 18 16:05:16 2004

people need to express themselves, let them do whatever makes them happy, so long as they are happy.
Thu Nov 18 12:32:02 2004

Well at least your not emo i suppose...
Azran, Norfolk
Thu Nov 18 12:14:17 2004

I know many goths and all they want is attention, an they go to extremes to be unique. Quite frankly it looks stupid.
Thu Nov 18 11:38:40 2004

Leave them alone! I think it's ridiculous that people are slating these kids for their attitudes..and that they arent "gothic" enough... so did you "mature goth" *ahem*... come out of the womb all morbid and gothic wearing a full Lip Service outfit and New Rock boots? I dont thinkg so. They are young, finding their feet, learning to express themsleves via their appearance and exploring music, lyrics and the "scene" in general... criticising them for not embracing the gothic world as whole (did i read someone mention architecture!!??!!?)... they are 12 years old! At that age, it isnt easy to be "different" especially within a school environment that is dominated by sports labels and overt status symbols ... let them be, let them become the people that they will be, be it the ultimate gothic pagan wiccan morticia lookalike goddess .... a townie disco dolly an electroclasher or an accountant! .. At that age, you change your mind about what you "are" as often as you change CD's in your stereo...they should be applauded and not treated in a derisory way... and you older "goths" having a pop is just ridiculous.. they are just kids, they will learn, just the way that you did.
Lisa, Manchester
Thu Nov 18 11:32:10 2004

Go and buy 'Disintegration' by The Cure.
Alex, Scotland
Thu Nov 18 11:12:09 2004

I found this review thing or whatever you wanna call it to be quite stereotypical. Too stereotypical
Thu Nov 18 10:13:51 2004

Give me a goth in black any day, rather than an idiot in burberry. I find them (goths) to be generally aggreeable and even polite. More of this please.
Dark Geese, The Moon
Thu Nov 18 03:50:06 2004

I wonder sometimes what people think being "goth" really is. You can dress black, wear black make-up, listen to "goth" music and still not be a "goth." I hate how stereotypical people can be. These explanations of kids living "goth" lives is so pointless. Being goth is more than dressing the part. And I wouldn't call anyone a "try hard" unless I knew what I was talking about. "Real goths".... How predictable for a teenager.
Disposable Idiot, World
Thu Nov 18 02:52:09 2004

Dimmu Borgir are icelandic.
Novander, The Internet
Thu Nov 18 02:50:35 2004

teehee! they are so cute!
Thu Nov 18 02:33:41 2004

That's all well and good, but when you're getting mugged by some narrow minded fools then you'd wish you didn't wear clothes like that. I mean, I'm into extreme music (Better than Green Day and Murderdolls anyway) but I don't dress like that.
David, Cambridgeshire
Wed Nov 17 23:38:52 2004

I think that everyone has freedom of speech whether it be clothes, makeup, etc.BE YOURSELF.
Jesikah Bennett, Seattle, USA
Wed Nov 17 20:37:56 2004

Most of you missed apostrophes in your sentences.
English Teacher
Wed Nov 17 18:50:10 2004

They do realise that just wearing black clothes does nothing but make them look like the other bazillion people wearing black clothes? It's more original to just be yourself, than try to be a goth or a punk or whatever else toots your horn.
Pete, Norfolk
Wed Nov 17 14:41:52 2004

But they aren't real goths...they are just try hards. When they are 18 they will look back and be like "oh GOD what did i think i was doing?"
Tue Nov 16 23:02:54 2004

Dimmu Borgir are not from Germany or in anyway "Satanic".
Gareth, Norfolk
Tue Nov 16 22:37:38 2004

These children need to take a look at the things they have surrounded themselves with and then look at the collective that is reffered to as "Goths." This may help them and others who feel some sort of link with these cretins realise something.
Gurth F. Orcenine, Norfolk.
Tue Nov 16 22:35:19 2004

Any one like Nightwish? Is anyone going to the Velvet Revolver concert in January @ Newcastle?
Lady of Darkness
Tue Nov 16 20:41:38 2004

i think shadow mercy (josh) is really a towney and he is only pretending to be a goth to fit in with the crowd and doesn't like goths at all so this is just all a hox so he can look good but doht look at his disguise
aaron clarke
Tue Nov 16 14:12:23 2004

lauren from norwich i think you are absurd we know exactley what goths are and we do what we want ofcourse we have fun we meet up we have a life you know and magick it works we have tried it and we will look what we like we dont have to use 'a brush' look at marilyn manson he has big black lips that looks bluddy brilliant you should get your facts straight and if you dont like how we are then tuff you just gotta put up with it aint ya!! cus im not changing for anyone even you ! oh and about that jessica thing school sucks yea it does face it yea its training and its good but why do you want to diss us?!
Shadow mercy
Mon Nov 15 17:21:57 2004

Goths deserve to be respected and I agree with Sigurd. There's nothing wrong with being different. In fact being the same is boring. I am a goth and so's my mums cousin. All my mates are goths or moshers and I couldnt care less what people thought of me. I like wearing what I wear and I've found out who my real friends are by being a goth. To the goths, don't listen to the all of the stupid people who follow trend and laugh down their noses at you. You are better than them. Goths and moshers are 99% of the time well nicer than the people who go with fashion. I'm 13 and I've been a goth since I was 9.
Lady of Darkness
Mon Nov 15 17:16:33 2004

Oh dear, we have a few know-it-alls on here. To Louise, Manchester - they may not know a real Goth if one slapped them but I'm willing to bet that neither would you my dear. Lauren, near Norwich - get off your high horse. Clearly you're in your late teens and are sadly lacking in the experience you claim to have; you need to know about Gothic architecture and literature to be a Goth? Grow up love. To the kids, do what you enjoy, if you want to dress in black etc good on you. Just remember, you're not Goth and Goth is not a derivative of punk.
Sigurd the Dragonslayer, Valhalla
Sun Nov 14 22:27:44 2004

I am so into this I try to wear all black but my parents won't let me all the time. My parents don't want me to be goth but i want to be becaue they are christians and they want me to be a so called christian when i'm a teenager i'm going to do all the goth stuff just wait and see.
Stephanie Ross
Sun Nov 14 21:18:50 2004

wow, this is the dumbest thing ive ever read. marilyn manson, slipknot, and good charlotte are not goth. everyone is like "ooh im goth, im so different" well goth is a subculture just like anything else, you are are still conforming and copying off of everyone else. if you want to know goth bands, go buy a bauhaus or sisters of mercy album.
Sun Nov 14 19:47:32 2004

Wow, aren't you special?
Emma, Shropshire
Sun Nov 14 18:54:13 2004

Typical kids interpretation of gothic imagery. You're following a fad. I bet your jewellery has "Alchemy Gothic" stamped on it. My advice? Analyse your true self and go with that, don't follow the herd.
Sun Nov 14 06:36:51 2004

Marilyn Manson is not goth. He is a 'poser' as most real goths call him. If you went to a goth club and asked for his music to be put on you would be laughed out of the place.
Sat Nov 13 19:11:50 2004

I don't really go a lot on the goth lifestyle, it's too strange for me!
Nathan from Dereham, in the fine county of Norfolk
Sat Nov 13 16:38:17 2004

Fri Nov 12 15:42:30 2004

i think goths are cool considering i am one my friend is Shadow mercy we go to skool to gether and we are good mates and i was shocked at him being on the internet
lucius mercy
Fri Nov 12 14:39:38 2004

thnx for putting my pic and my say on the web i showed all my mates at school now they think i am mad!!!
Shadow Mercy
Fri Nov 12 14:12:34 2004

i am alternative myself but am alot older then these kids to be honest it seems to me that gothic is becoming the new trendy to them its just a phase
gemma lancashire
Fri Nov 12 12:09:40 2004

I listen to all the same kind of music as you but i think your attention seekers for wearing all that. you should wear wat you feel comfortable wearing and you are only obviouly following what other 'goths' are wearing.
Flip, burton on trent
Fri Nov 12 11:02:47 2004

Please, you're just embarrassing the real goths - don't encourage the annoying little clones.
Simon, Bedford
Fri Nov 12 08:35:16 2004

i like it as it reflects my outlook on life and it bothers people
carl. columbus ohio
Fri Nov 12 02:10:21 2004

I think these teenage wannabe goths dont have a clue, gothic culture has nothing to with how much black you were, as a mature goth its all about attitude and viewpoints, not how much you hate trendies but ho wmuch u love the lifestyle you lead, i bet these 12 yrs know nothing about goth culture and wouldnt know what a true goth was if they walked up to them and slapped them.
Louise, Manchester
Thu Nov 11 20:05:48 2004

I don't think you should become 'Goths', and I disbelieve in the whole concept of goths, moshers or whatever they're labelled as where you guys are. I like Marilyn Manson, Goo Goo Dolls, Black Label Society, Slipknot, Korn and all the other heavy metal / goth metal bands out there - but I wouldn't call myself a goth. I wouldn't call myself anything other than a person. I dress in baggy jeans, Vans trainers and whatever t-shirts take my fancy (even Nike and Adidas). I think people should like what they want to like and not be discriminative of others for liking different things. Such a cliche, but it's my 2c.
Tom - Staffordshire
Thu Nov 11 18:54:30 2004

awww how cute. one day you'll look back at this and cringe...i know i do when my mum dredges up my goth stage photos.
Thu Nov 11 18:11:30 2004

its up to you what you where so dont let people put you off your the one who's wearing not them and if they dont like it then its tuff.
megan and im from norfolk
Thu Nov 11 15:51:36 2004

Bless your little hearts! I think it’s great to be individual, great not to be afraid to be different, and if you want to be a Goth, fantastic! But I think that you’ve got to be careful. In trying to avoid being a conformist and a stereotype, you’re in danger of becoming exactly that. If you feel you can’t wear colours or look happy, you’re even more circumscribed than other people. You will probably find that you make the style more your own as you get older and develop more, so try not to get too set as “I must wear this, do this, look like this because I am a Goth.” If it stops being comfortable or fun, then you really shouldn’t do it any more. Do you guys really call each other by those names in normal conversation? They sound more like chat room names. You need to be comfortable with yourself, and if you don’t turn automatically when that name is said then it’s not really your name, because it isn’t part of you. Remember to be yourselves, because so many people don’t, and that’s what makes them sad, silly little sheep, always pretending. It’s not what you wear; it’s your attitude that matters. Couple of things you lot might not know but every Goth should be told: 1: White face and black eyeliner with mascara looks like two spiders in a sugar bowl if you’re not careful. 2: Black lipstick should be applied with a brush to avoid bleeding and stop your lips looking huge and crooked. 3: It is never cool to sleep in your makeup! One thing you do not want to become is part of the teeny-Goth scene. Underage clubbing, smoking, drugs and sitting in graveyards drinking cider are stupid things to do. Ask any Goth over the age of 16 and they will tell you that we despise those childish idiots. All they talk about is themselves, and drivel about old religions and magic that they don’t understand and aren’t really interested in. They are totally hollow, all they want to do is be “cool” and “grownup”. They are closed to the idea that anyone who doesn’t dress like them is a worthwhile human and might be interesting. I’d advise you not to talk about “magic” to many people older than you. The books you can buy on it, even stuff from places like Innana’s Festival in Norwich, and mass-produced rubbish churned out to target people who don’t know any better. I’ve no idea where you really could find books on old lore and traditions, which is what most people now call magic. If you are really interested in Gothic stuff, look at some old Gothic architecture, and some “Classical Goth” stuff. That way you can talk intelligently if anyone asks you about what Goth is historically and culturally. If all you can say is “Marylin Manson” you’ll look pretty dim, but if you can give a decent answer you might find you get a bit more respect. One thing I have learned is this: Don’t take it seriously. Life’s meant to be fun. Oh, and Jessica? School sucks. It’s a fact of life. But it is good training for life. When you leave, you’ll get two years of college where you can wear what you want, but then you’ll have a job and have to wear what they want. That’s why we have weekends!
Lauren, near Norwich
Thu Nov 11 12:12:18 2004

I found myself on a very different Goth scene to the one you describe. 15 years ago a friend lent me a copy of The Top, an album by the Cure. At the time the Cure were an iconic 'Goth' band, alongside Siouxsie and the Banshees, the Sisters of Mercy, Bauhaus and various others that few will have heard of. There was a sort of cultivated air of sophistication and elegance about the whole thing. Poetry, red wine, various other such things (which looking back on it were wildly pretentious!) were a staple of the Goth lifestyle. You could go clubbing and discuss Descartes, Neitzsche, Kafka and Pre-Raphalite painting... Well, I did anyway. A few years ago, this aspect of Goth sort of got forgotten about in favour of the visceral imagery of Mr Manson, Slipknot and other Americanised stuff. Out went the tailcoats, in came the skateboards... As for the Satanism thing - it may shock your parents and serve as a way of defining yourself as not being 'assimilated' into the Borg-like collective of mainstream society, but seeing as it's based on the writings of a Mr La Vey, who simply took a load of pop-psychology, wildly inaccurate translations of the John Dee's Enochian Keys, some scary imagery and a 'let's screw everyone - I'm great' ethic, it does seem a bit sad. Thing is, there are so many different types of people that call themselves Goth these days there's little common ground. I know for a fact that this new bunch going round calling themselves Goths are sometimes looked down on by the older lot. Many feel that the word has been tainted now since they'd rather eat raw sewage than go anywhere near a Slipknot or Manson gig. My advice would be to check out the roots and work out what it's really about (if anything) rather than label yourself Goths and drag the rest of us into 'disrepute'... Basically, what I'm trying to say here is that there's a hell of a lot more to Goth than the somewhat manufactured and superficial stuff like Manson, Slipknot, 'Satanism' (which has zero to do with Wicca, incidentally). Look into the roots and history of it - it's the most enduring subculture we have... Other Tips: Learn to apply makeup properly... Practise practise practise... You don't want to go round the place looking like a Panda. Remember, if you *ahem* misbehave you bring disrepute to everyone else that looks like you, thus making things worse for everyone. So no picking fights or causing a ruckus... If you wear a t-shirt with occult designs on it, for crying out loud make sure you know what the symbols on it mean... Being a Goth is no excuse to stink. There's nothing worse than being in a Goth club and standing next to someone at the bar who hasn't showered for ages. Patchouli oil is no substitute for personal hygiene. No bitching about other Goths. I know it's tough not to comment about someone else's hair, or who's said what to whom, but there aren't many of us about, so play nicely, yeah?
Dogsolitude, Norwich
Thu Nov 11 11:53:37 2004


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