Pocket money and paper rounds


It seems that the debate over the way Wales is funded has reached something of an impasse.

Last week I interviewed Nick Clegg, who was in Wales to give what was described as a 'thinky' talk about the future of devolution. I sat down to interview him with some 'thinky' questions of my own but what he delivered - with gusto - was a striking message to the Welsh Government about taking much more responsibility for raising at least some the money it spends. It was the proverbial lecture to the stroppy teenager to stop relying on pocket money (from Westminster) and at least get a paper round. My thinky questions stayed in my pocket.

But for all Mr Clegg's "stop whining" rhetoric, he was far less keen on actually committing to giving Wales any sort of fiscal autonomy any time soon, or so it seemed to me. Borrowing powers? Can't do these things on a whim, he said. Tax varying powers? Well, yes - in the medium term. But he brought with him an awful lot of jam tomorrow as well as accountability today.

The Welsh Government have been talking to the Treasury for months now about their initial financial objective, which is to secure borrowing powers for Wales. Whenever Finance Minister, Jane Hutt, appears at a press conference, she knows one question is inevitably coming: when might the big conversation between Jane and Danny reach a conclusion?

She's been locked in discussions with Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander to try and secure the right to borrow in order to invest in large infrastructure projects. And at every press conference, she sighs, smiles and tells us they're going well - but still no announcement.

A letter from Mr Alexander to the Finance Committee may give a clue as to why. Asked whether he believes it is possible to have borrowing powers without tax varying powers, he answers as follows:

"In principle, I believe there is an inherent link between borrowing powers and the ability to raise revenue independently to support borrowing for two reasons. First, borrowing powers can be appropriate and necessary to reflect and manage the increased responsibility for raising revenue.

"Secondly, an independent source of income can be adjusted as appropriate to support the costs of borrowing."

What the Treasury seem to be saying here is that they're uneasy about handing over borrowing powers to the Welsh Government when their only substantial means of paying it back is the income stream from the block grant - they'd like them to have the paper round as well as the pocket money. But the Welsh Government are adamant that they won't accept any substantial tax varying powers without reform of Barnett.

And so we go round again.

Meanwhile, Plaid Cymru have today published their calculations about the alleged underfunding of Wales according to the Barnett formula. They were at pains to stress that they were in no way undermining Gerry Holtham's final determination of a £400m underfunding for Wales, rather, they draw on more recent Treasury data to put the gap at closer to £540m a year.

How is that figure arrived at? Well the Barnett formula is infamously based on population, not need. Holtham's calculations are based on what extra funding Wales should receive in a needs-based formula.

The problem with demanding this gap be closed in Wales in the near future is that it assumes, politically and financially, that Barnett reform can somehow be done asymmetrically, that is, a fundamentally different formula can be applied in Wales as compared with other parts of the UK who do very nicely out of the current arrangements, thank you very much.

At First Minister's Questions, the Plaid leader Leanne Wood called on the First Minister to fight for a "Barnett floor" a guaranteed level of expenditure compared to England, below which the Welsh allocation will never fall. He had little trouble in agreeing this, since it's been a key demand of his government - but Ms Wood then went on to warn of a "Barnett floor" turning into a "Barnett ceiling", locking in the alleged underfunding.

If you feel as though the room is spinning now, well, that's devolved finance for you.

Gerry Holtham said in his report that a Barnett floor would be relatively cheap and easy to implement, particularly at a time of flat or declining budgets. Today's exchanges demonstrate why nothing is straightforward, and why the impasse may continue for some time to come.

Betsan Powys, Political editor, Wales Article written by Betsan Powys Betsan Powys Former political editor, Wales

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  • rate this

    Comment number 36.

    No other country pays for its infrastructure out of current income, no council in the land does, no other devolved administration does - Why should our development be hamstrug by a lack of borrowing powers? Secondly Barnett is a population based formula, not a needs based one. If it was needs based we would get more, but as we became wealthier we would get less.

  • rate this

    Comment number 35.

    33 John

    Carr has done nothing illegal.

    It is for Governments to close these tax loopholes.

    I doubt Cameron will, too many interested parties relying on this type of tax break, too much in terms of donations to the Tory machine from those who so benefit.

    Fingers will be pointed, but not at ourselves.

    Nowt will be done!

    I often wonder why we bother.

  • rate this

    Comment number 34.

    Talking about a dogs dinner there is a certain one who is going to have a lot of them after winning £500.000 in a Human Talent Contest. Now that is really showing the country is going to the Dogs. No Bones about it. I wonder if that one will be paying tax on the winnings.

  • rate this

    Comment number 33.

    ... alf, you might like to follow the link and read of the comedian making monkeys out of the honest taxpayers of the UK ...


    ... when politicians sort out this dogs dinner we might feel a little easier paying our taxes in full.

    Carwyn might like to champion the little people taxpayers, he'd get my vote if he made enough noise ........

  • rate this

    Comment number 32.


    In M 29 you state that I used an apostrophe in 'crossroads' M16

    Although being somewhat ashamed at reaching new depths in Welsh pedantry, I have to tell you that I used not an apostrophe, but quotation marks,(inverted commas)
    If you look at Betsan's first two paragraphs, both "thinky" and "stop whining" can be found...Both examples being rather appropriate, don't you think !

  • rate this

    Comment number 31.

    The 'needs-based' allocation of funding has completely failed to deliver progress for Wales but instead has lead to dependency, just as it was prophesised it would. As for Borrowing powers well you don't need to look far to see how awful an idea it is to let this socialist devolved administration borrow from its children to spend on its grand schemes, Spanish regions are filing for bankruptcy.

  • rate this

    Comment number 30.

    ... alf, my reply was tongue in cheek. I am very disenchanted by the obvious cowardice I discover opening the pages on modern politics.

    Recently I completed my tax return, a modest though more comfortable than many, and I thought about those thousands of people who avoid paying their due because taxation is a mess.

    Politics could fix this inequity ... it's a question of ethics

  • rate this

    Comment number 29.

    No offence meant I was not being nasty John, it was metaphorical. Unlike myself being called sanctimonious by crossroads, with an apostrophe.
    I can see why you are leaving them, they have to look at other places for ideas as they haven't got any of their own. Though as most Politicians today are PR people or Lawyers, their own ideas and logical thinking are pretty scarce on the ground.

  • rate this

    Comment number 28.

    ... well alf that's a first, being called a rat, although to put things into perspective, I believe there is a big place for business in our world, including profit, and the private sector has much to offer the public services and I do believe that government is far too intrusive.

    Even Cameron is looking towards Sweden for solutions, try http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18432841 for a surprise.

  • rate this

    Comment number 27.

    Boxer. Sorry but it seems like centuries. Well the metaphorical rats are deserting the Tory ship. Things must be bad after all the Conservative rhetoric from John. We are doomed. We are doomed.

  • rate this

    Comment number 26.

    As a life long conservative only lately leaning towards Labour, particularly after listening to Milliband and his speech on Britishness, I can only concur with Boxer, the working man and woman have much more to be thankful to the Labour Party than the degree of animosity shown by certain sectors of civic Wales.

  • rate this

    Comment number 25.

    Clegg might have some justification in being a bit of a'Janus' on this. He only needs to point to the report from the EU regional development fund, which is perturbed that all the millions invested in the poorer parts of Wales seem not to have made much difference. Devolution of at some revenue raising powers may help. The tax and spenders will have to justify themselves or face the boot.

  • rate this

    Comment number 24.

    #20 Alf, Keir Hardie, the first leader of the Independent Labour Party, was elected as member for Merthyr Tydfil in 1900. Yet you say, 'in Wales Labour has been in charge of .. what ever else you care to name for centuries.'
    I think you will find that in the C19th and before the great landowners were in charge. Look at Iron, Coal and Copper.

  • rate this

    Comment number 23.

    cont ... Local Education Authorities experimented with comprehensive schools designed for children of all abilities. Labour supported plans to phase out grammar schools and following the 1964 General Election, the Government instructed all local authorities to prepare plans for the creation of comprehensive schools. This policy was also accepted by Conservative governments .

    Not just Labour alf.

  • rate this

    Comment number 22.

    ... language is pretty irrelevant alf, take education as a very well documented aspect of life both here and throughout the UK.

    The big change was from the Grammar-Secondary to the Comprehensive model of education.

    It was educational experts who were opposed to the idea of selection at eleven and argued that secondary modern schools were providing a second-class education. cont ...

  • rate this

    Comment number 21.

    Devolution is removing electors control - Out of 297 devolved legislators only 113 are directly elected while 184 are party appointed (by party list).

  • rate this

    Comment number 20.

    John. Politically in Wales Labour has been in charge of investment and finances, Health, Education, Social Care and what ever else you care to name for centuries. We are still languishing at the bottom of the pile with everything. Explain that then and why? Please don't demean your self by saying the language, as somebody is bound to.

  • rate this

    Comment number 19.

    ... well alf, I'm not sure your statement at #18 ...

    "that is what Labour have brought us to."

    ... is even close to being correct, the statement dismisses all other influences that have been brought to bear on the social, political and economic aspects of our lives.

  • rate this

    Comment number 18.

    Celt . I can't argue with that because it is a fact. That is what Labour have brought us to.

  • rate this

    Comment number 17.

    Good morning Alf.
    So some admission in your last sentence that the cost of devolution and the wag has brought no benefits at all to Wales?
    Still no list of the benefits this banality has given?
    Why go back?
    Well it would be cheaper to start with.
    All this expense and absolutely no improvement, you answered the question yourself with your view on our statistical position!


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