Scottish independence: David Cameron in referendum offer

 
Alex Salmond in talks with David Cameron Alex Salmond said the talks with David Cameron had "moved things on substantially"

Prime Minister David Cameron has offered to consider more powers for Scotland, in the event of a vote against independence.

Ahead of a referendum expected in 2014, Mr Cameron admitted Scotland could go it alone, but said he believed in the United Kingdom "head, heart and soul".

He said it would be "deeply, deeply sad" if Scotland became independent.

The prime minister also suggested the move would have implications for the UK's EU and Nato membership.

Mr Cameron has since been in talks with Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond, who said after the meeting: "Things have moved on quite substantially".

He said the only serious issue of disagreement was over the question used in the referendum and whether there should be a second question on "devo max".

Talks 'frustrating'

However, he said he wouldn't "buy a pig in a poke" from Mr Cameron over a referendum on independence.

He said: "The prime minister's position is he wants to have one question. My position is we are in the middle of a consultation with the Scottish people and we are open-minded.

Prime Minister David Cameron says Scotland is "richer, fairer and stronger" in the union

"If there is a strong demand from civic Scotland, from the unions, the voluntary sector, the churches, civic society in Scotland, for something different, for some other option to be tested, politicians at the very least should listen to that."

Mr Salmond said it was now incumbent on Mr Cameron and others to set out more details on the offer of further devolution for Scotland.

"The prime minister is now saying for the first time that another option is now on the table. What I said to the prime minister in the discussions is if that is the case, we now have to know what it will be."

Mr Cameron said he had made little progress with Mr Salmond and reiterated that his "absolute priority" was to preserve the United Kingdom.

He said voters in Scotland should be presented as soon as possible with a "simple, straightforward and legal" question over whether they wanted to remain in the UK or not.

He described his discussions with Mr Salmond as "constructive", but told the BBC: "On the issue of independence, separating Scotland, leaving the United Kingdom, I am afraid there wasn't much progress."

Government sources told the BBC the talks had been "frustrating".

Anti-cuts protest

Earlier anti-cuts campaigners attempted to disrupt Mr Cameron's arrival in Edinburgh.

A couple of dozen protestors with a banner reading "coalition of resistance" were surrounded by a line of police officers on steps outside St Andrews House in Edinburgh, the headquarters of the Scottish government.

Protest scene Protesters staged a demonstration outside the hotel where Mr Cameron made his speech

And two people, a 22-year-old man and a 19-year-old woman, were arrested during protests outside the hotel where Mr Cameron made a speech.

Demonstrators from the Occupy Edinburgh movement tried to enter the Apex in the Grassmarket, but were stopped by the large police presence.

Mr Cameron's visit came amid an on-going dispute between the Scottish and UK governments over several referendum issues, including who has the legal power to run it.

The Scottish government is open-minded about including a second question on the ballot paper, asking people if they want more powers for the Holyrood parliament, short of independence.

Mr Cameron said the independence issue had to be dealt with simply, telling BBC News: "We have to settle that question before then going on and asking, I think quite legitimately, is there more that we can do to improve the devolved settlement?

Start Quote

If you put aside a pound a year, and invest it, after 20 years, you could have £30 - multiply by a billion, and you've got the latest piece of Alex Salmond's vision for independence”

End Quote

"Are there powers that could be devolved, how can we make the United Kingdom work better?"

Asked if he would devolve more power, to Scotland, Mr Cameron replied: "I'm very prepared. I believe in devolution, and I don't just mean devolution in terms of power, I mean devolution in terms of giving people greater control over their own lives."

Making his case for the Union, Mr Cameron said: "I'm not saying that Scotland couldn't make it on her own, of course Scotland could, just as England could - but ideally hope that this doesn't happen.

"I believe in the United Kingdom, head, heart and soul.

"We've achieved so much together, we can go on achieving great things together, so I hope that, when the time comes, Scots will vote to stay in our shared home."

The prime minister said: "It's never been part of my argument that Scotland couldn't make it on her own - there are countries in Europe, small countries that make it on their own, but my argument is, we are better off, we are stronger together, we're fairer together, we're richer together.

Alex Salmond says that progress in the talks must be based on "genuine mutual respect"

Mr Cameron said the UK enjoyed "solidarity", adding: "When one part of the United Kingdom suffers a setback, whether it's a drought or a flood or severe weather or economic dislocation, we are there for each other.

"We've achieved all these things together and I think to throw all that away would be deeply, deeply sad."

The prime minister said there was also a strong economic case for the UK, which he described as the world's 7th largest economy.

He said that, as an independent country, Scotland would have the "advantages of oil but the disadvantages of an over-extended banking system", while other costs like pensions and benefits would come into play.

The PM went on to say there would be lots of "consequences" for organisations like the armed forces, the BBC, the NHS and the UK's nuclear weapons, based at Faslane Naval Base on the Clyde.

"The UN Security Council seat, our membership of the European Union, our leadership in Nato, our nuclear deterrent, our strong armed forces, they are all things that belong to the whole of the United Kingdom," he said.

What's known at the moment

SNP position Unionist position

Wants the referendum in the autumn of 2014

Wants the referendum "sooner rather than later"

Backs a "yes/no" ballot but is open minded on including a second "devo max" question

Wants a one question "yes/no" ballot

Wants 16 and 17-year-olds to be able to vote in the referendum

Backs the status quo with 18 and over able to vote

Has agreed to the Electoral Commission overseeing the vote

Wanted the Electoral Commission to oversee the vote

"Clearly you can't break them in bits, as the defence secretary put it, you can't snap parts of our defence industry off like a bar of chocolate if Scotland was to go its own way."

Mr Cameron described himself as "one voice among many" in the independence debate, adding: "There will be Labour politicians, Liberal Democrat politicians, people of no political party, people who hate politics will all step forward and make arguments about whether Scotland should stay in the United Kingdom or not."

The prime minister also dismissed support for independence among so-called English nationalists, saying he was "not interested".

Earlier this week, Scottish Secretary Michael Moore held the first in a series of talks with Mr Salmond on arrangements for the referendum.

UK ministers say the Scottish Parliament needs extra devolved powers for the referendum to be legal, and has proposed a temporary transfer.

The SNP, which says it would be entitled to hold a "consultative" referendum, has welcomed the coalition's offer, but has warned it not to try to dictate terms.

UK ministers also want the vote to be staged sooner than the SNP has proposed, and they also disagree with calls to let 16 and 17-year-olds vote.

 

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  • rate this
    +2

    Comment number 945.

    I am moving to Scotland....England is a poor relative.

  • rate this
    0

    Comment number 944.

    @924.Laurie Knight You're one of these folk that make up statistics to get your point across. Childish and unhelpful.

  • rate this
    +1

    Comment number 943.

    I'd miss the downstairs neighbours. Sure, they're a bit noisy and can be a bit disruptive but they're not all bad.

  • rate this
    +1

    Comment number 942.

    The question of north sea oil and gas consistently comes up. We should remember that at the end of 2010 optimistically 74% of it was gone. Ownership question aside, a quick calculation shows the chances of any being left by the time Scotland became an independent nation are very low.

  • Comment number 941.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • rate this
    +6

    Comment number 940.

    If its not been done yet, I would suggest that the BBC does an online poll to really see what British people think about Scotland going independent. I am English but would welcome Scotland going independent. It would help both countries in the long run! Plus I'd take the opportunity and move.

  • rate this
    0

    Comment number 939.

    922.ConnorMacLeod
    'Stop and think for a minute please - if Scotland was a drag on the UK economy it would have been cut loose years ago ! The only reason it is still part of the UK is because it makes economic sense for Westminster'

    Absolute nonsense...why then have we not cut N.I & Wales loose ?

  • rate this
    +2

    Comment number 938.

    If I were a Scot, I would be very wary of independance because, in my view, a lot of the desire is emotional rather than practical and historical hatred of the English is not a sound basis for proceeding. I lived for eight years within a few miles of Mr Salmonds constituancy and have felt that hatred, albeit from a small minority, at first hand.

  • rate this
    +5

    Comment number 937.

    @TheMardler
    This isn't targeted at English people, despite certain newspaper reports. It is about responsibility, fairness and self-determination. Lots of English people holiday in Europe and like Europeans but don't want rule from Brussels. They'd like the UK to withdraw from the EU. The same kind of sentiment propels Scottish Nationalism. I'm undecided. From a Scot married to a Yorkshire lass.

  • rate this
    +3

    Comment number 936.

    Scotland; Soon to be the 6th richest country in the world! Why do English people resent this fact? Surely to goodness they should be happy for us? They didn't like it when they thought they subsidised us, and then when it turns out we pay more into the treasury than we get back, they still don't like us?! It's time we left bankrupt Britain!

  • rate this
    +5

    Comment number 935.

    Yottskry read this

    http://www.oilofscotland.org/scottish_north_sea_oil.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_Scotland's_oil

    http://oilofscotland.org/

    and there is enough Oil there for more than 300 years and it is doing very well Thanks

  • rate this
    +4

    Comment number 934.

    I think whatever happens we should all try to remain good friend on this little island in which we share. Don't forget scotts are great people and the welsh and irish too, never met a bad one in my life.

  • rate this
    +4

    Comment number 933.

    @924.
    Laurie Knight

    Sorry, you may think a 3.5bil industry is minute, which grew 10% in 2010. I don't see it as such a small deal.

  • rate this
    +3

    Comment number 932.

    The vast majority of the antagonistic or dismissive comments on here seem to be against Scottish independence. Does that not strike you as interesting?

    Also lots of comments referring to scots as 'they'. If you want Scotland to remain in the UK surely this should change.

  • rate this
    +1

    Comment number 931.

    Having Scots ancestry like lots of us south of the border I am slightly torn on this. However, I think Scotland is better off by far in the Union than on its own not least when its football clubs are disintegrating. Salmond is putting off the issue as long as possible as he fears the outcome either way.

  • rate this
    +3

    Comment number 930.

    Alex Salmond speaks of "genuine mutual respect"... while at the same time saying everything is Englands fault.

    I have no problem with Scotland being independant, but how about a referendum in the rest of the UK asking "should Scotland be allowed to remain in the Union?"

    What then happens if Scotland votes no to independance, but the rest of the UK votes to kick them out of the Union?

  • rate this
    +14

    Comment number 929.

    This is ridiculous. We're supposed to be living in a democracy. First Westminster tries to stop a vote altogether, and now they're trying to limit it. Give the Scottish people the chance to choose their own future. Yes/no/devo max/whatever. I'm English and I fully support an independent Scotland or a Scotland with more choice about how their country and resources get used.

  • rate this
    +1

    Comment number 928.

    892.BadlyPackedKebab
    2 Minutes ago

    If you knew what you were talking about then you would know SNP were the only party against the trams in Edinburgh. The tram fiasco is down to Labour, LibDem and Tories.

  • rate this
    0

    Comment number 927.

    880.Ralf_77

    Those questions will not be answered (at least in public) until things have been decided, that way there is plenty of time for spin north & south with no facts to let voters make an informed vote. For now, I think the voters are left to vote on their favourite dream - regardless of any reality.

  • rate this
    0

    Comment number 926.

    As a Scotsman I see being ruled over by the likes of Nicola Sturgeon as a socialist nightmare. What is she if he is not a raving socialist? I was born in the same town as she was and I trust her not. I would hate to see some career politicians break up the UK. It is absurd to see some simple cultural division between "The English" and "The Scots".

 

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