Deleted

msg 4291
royalgrounded

All three definitions work whilst being open to criticism. E.G. god is a construct, if I popped my clogs tomorrow my motorbike would still exist and my cat can reason.

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Can you prove any of these statements?

Kant objects cause people more trouble than others.

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Including, I suspect the man himself.

Like you AFK* for a while

Just looked this up along with IMO and IMHO. I really must get with the jargon.

TTFN

Boredbyfour

Sorry things to do.
I'll reply later though I suspect we are less far apart than you assume.

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Possibly so.

BTW ludo/ludere also a joke.

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As mentioned earlier, it must be the way we tell 'em.

Message 4925 - posted by Boredbyfour

“...normally 'Western...”

Afternoon Boredbyfour thank you for this advice which I am trying out here in a slightly roundabout way as my Mozilla computer is not the one I use at the weekend. This machine uses XP/IE7 and I have set everything to be as Western/UK as possible.

In terms of religious news that might tie into this thread (however loosely); the Burma story springs to mind. It appears the monks in Asia are more numerous and militant than their Western counterparts. Are they deluded if they think they stand any chance of achieving their goals when pitted against bullets? Perhaps there is something about religion that drives followers into action; is it more than tribal?

AFK m/c m'ce

4926
royalgrounded

hi rg

The non-computer bit

It appears the monks in Asia are more numerous and militant than their Western counterparts.

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I am not sure that the comparison is particularly useful. Although, both groups share the same label they come from distinct culture traditions. I am not sure that the assumption of militancy* is applicable to Buddhists monks in general though it may be true of Burmese monks.

However, Burmese monks do appear to have a tradition of resisting the secular authorities when the actions of the latter are perceived as unjust. For example, they were active in opposing the British colonial regime in Burma.

Certainly, they are more numerous though I understand that it is not uncommon in Burma for young men to become Buddhist monks for a comparatively short period of time and it is the younger element who are most militant.

Are they deluded if they think they stand any chance of achieving their goals when pitted against bullets?

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Well it is only a personal view but I think not.
One of the problems with the 'New Atheists' is that they seem to regard all things religious as inherently bad**. Of course its simply not true. There are numerous examples where religious groups have participated in *principled* stands against injustice and oppression. Fairly obvious examples are the Levellers, the abolitionists, the anti-apartheid movement, the anti-segregationists in the States and the 'liberation theology' priest in South America.

I think the actions of The Burmese monks should be seen in this light. Moreover, they may be the only group in Burmese society who are able to mount such a protest. You have to remember that organised political opposition in Burma has been almost completely suppressed and the monks are the only organised opposition left. So not delusion, I think, rather courage and a concern for others.

Perhaps there is something about religion that drives followers into action; is it more than tribal?

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I am not sure that tribalism is an issue here. I think that some groups, not necessarily restricted to the religious, have ethical principles that they are prepared to put themselves at risk to defend.

* Though religious military orders seem to occur in many cultures.
**Frequently accompanied by the wriggle 'Of course I don't mean to claim that all religious people are bad, etc.,etc.

Message 4927 - posted by blue_ichtus02

“...what is your "take" on your comment?”

When I was writing the original post Iraq sprang to mind. Were tribal and religious badges interchangeable? Also in the Middle East country there was talk of Martyrdom for suicide bombers, which without a working knowledge of Islam, I hope was an abominable misinterpretation of sacred texts.

I then caught part of an R4 programme about Burma on September 29 (after curfew) which suggested that an ex high school dropout in a bunker in the jungle ruled the country. The implication being the push for democracy is not due to tribal inequality but a general insurrection by brave people. Did the monks’ faith give them the courage to face military bullets? Could the monks even have acted on the premise that this life was but a passing phase? Did this drive an “it’s better to die on your feet than live on your knees” duty of sacrifice, overcoming the human instinct for self-survival, for the freedom of their fellow countrymen?

Hi,Boredbyfour

Why?

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I was interested to hear the views of both yourself and RG, because neither of you appear to have an agenda on the subject!

msg 4932
blue_icthus02

Afternoon blue

neither of you appear to have an agenda on the subject!

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Perhaps though I think we are seen of 'the woolly minded liberal' persuasion by those more zealous in the 'non-faith'. That might be regarded as an agenda

Btw don't know if you missed it but I'm a Fifer too.

msg 4930
royalgrounded

Were tribal and religious badges interchangeable?

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IMO, I think we have to be quite careful about the relationship between tribalism and religion.

It may be that, for example, in some tribal/clan groups religion may be used to reinforce aspects of clan/tribal culture rather than being a direct cause of the behaviour.

One example might be the Muslim tribal/clan cultures of the Middle East* and Pakistan where endogamy is frowned upon and is more rigorously enforced than seems to be required by the Q'uran.

In a non-tribal Muslim cultures, such as that found in Bosnia, exogamy seems quite common.

*It should be remembered that this was not restricted to Muslim cultures it was also typical of the Abrahamic tribes and has echoes in modern Orthodox Judaism.

msg 4931
royalgrounded

Oops the <?> are back!! How odd!

4939
blue_icthus02

Yes, did notice - wonder if ww and psi have heard the saying about needing a "lang spoon" to "sup" with a Fifer??

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I suspect not.

I recently had an odd conversation with a local who claimed that whereas 'diaspora' natives here regularly return home to maintain contact with there roots, Fifers rarely do so because they take their roots with them.