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Is it time to free Palestine?

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Messages: 1 - 37 of 37
  • Message 1. 

    Posted by ste armstrong (U14913627) on Sunday, 19th June 2011

    Typical of Sam Westercott to mention Hitler in his opening comments. If you need to use this justification in your argument then you can't have a very strong argument. Hamas is a terrorist organisation, no one can argue with that. But that does not justify the ongoing genocide against the Palestinian people.

    Peter Hitchens is trotting out the same old tired right wing drivel. "There are some affluent areas in Gaza" Tell that to the kids in the camps or the farmers who's land has been snatched.

    Report message1

  • Message 2

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by hopeful (U14730074) on Sunday, 19th June 2011

    Some people say black is white you can only feel sorry for them
    .hope he suffers in some way as they do and soon.

    Report message2

  • Message 3

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by hopeful (U14730074) on Sunday, 19th June 2011

    Some people say black is white you can only feel sorry for them
    .hope Sam suffers in some way as they do and soon.
    The terrorists were the 1950s jews who killed britons and stole arab land..

    Report message3

  • Message 4

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by ocoste (U1912512) on Sunday, 19th June 2011

    Maybe Sam Westercott was suggesting that we should learn from history? Do you want to give Hammas free reign to invoke their charter, you know the one the Palestininian supporter lied about it's existance, or rather the content when challenged on it.

    "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

    "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

    "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
    Source: www.mideastweb.org/h...

    These are the very same people who hold beliefs like this: In a sermon aired on Hamas' Al-Aqsa television, cleric Yunis Al Astal stated, "Today, Rome is the capital of the Catholics, or the Crusader capital, which has declared its hostility to Islam, and has planted the brothers of apes and pigs in Palestine in order to prevent the reawakening of Islam.

    In my opinion, one must take the word of Muslims, with a great degree of suspicion and mistrust, for they are adherants of a faith that advocates lying to 'non-believers'.

    I am not the biggest fan of Israel either, but genocide of the Palestinians? Rather dramatic OTT description. If Hammas ever got to a position of strength, then we'd really be witnessing a true genocide of all Jews in the region.



    Report message4

  • Message 5

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by friendlykamustaka (U12870744) on Sunday, 19th June 2011

    Typical of Sam Westercott to mention Hitler in his opening comments. If you need to use this justification in your argument then you can't have a very strong argument. Hamas is a terrorist organisation, no one can argue with that. But that does not justify the ongoing genocide against the Palestinian people.

    Peter Hitchens is trotting out the same old tired right wing drivel. "There are some affluent areas in Gaza" Tell that to the kids in the camps or the farmers who's land has been snatched. 
    Yup. Looks like real hell-hole:

    www.youtube.com/watc...

    Actually reminds me of summer holidays. More here:

    canaryinthecoalmine....

    I thought Hitchens was the best speaker on this subject,having a dig at both sides,but looking towards the future. However, one side is ideologically fixed in the past.Hitchens correctly pointed out that the "Palestinians" could have done more for their people. Instead their leaders have always been driven by ideology,rather than any notion of democracy. In their view, Israel has no right to exist,therefore any notion of "sharing" would be an admission of defeat. So rather than do what's best for their people,and in order to gain Western sympathisers,they deliberately play the victim,thereby making things worse for themselves BY THEIR OWN ACTIONS. For example,deliberately putting their own civilians in harms' way.

    www.youtube.com/watc...

    It's very sad when a people puts the destruction of another people before its own well-being. Golda Meir famously stated that there would only be peace when the Arabs started to love their children more than they hated the Israelis. True then.True now. Very sad.......

    Report message5

  • Message 6

    , in reply to message 5.

    Posted by ocoste (U1912512) on Sunday, 19th June 2011

    Friendly: thanks for links. Very revealing quote from Golda Meir and the link to the Gaza 'holiday camp' is an eye opener too!!!

    Report message6

  • Message 7

    , in reply to message 4.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Sunday, 19th June 2011

    In my opinion, one must take the word of Muslims, with a great degree of suspicion and mistrust, for they are adherants of a faith that advocates lying to 'non-believers'. 

    You should take the word of Israel with a degree of supsicion and mistrust too

    www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mb...

    I am not the biggest fan of Israel either, but genocide of the Palestinians? Rather dramatic OTT description. If Hammas ever got to a position of strength, then we'd really be witnessing a true genocide of all Jews in the region.  

    we already see what has happened under Israel:

    3.bp.blogspot.com/-3...



    Report message7

  • Message 8

    , in reply to message 7.

    Posted by angloegyptian (U14336905) on Sunday, 19th June 2011

    The word democracy was mentioned in support of Israel then Hamas, in both cases the majority of voters are religious radical maniacs, so what kind of democracy is that, at least the Palestinian have the right to be mad after seeing their homes and land stolen and their families became refugees while the thieves are living happily on the land.

    Report message8

  • Message 9

    , in reply to message 8.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Monday, 20th June 2011

    <quote postid='109443073'> the Palestinian have the right to be mad after seeing their homes and land stolen and their families became refugees while the thieves are living happily on the land.</quote

    And add to that the fact that while they deny the palestinian refugees the right to return to their homes, they have enshrined in Law the right of every Jewish conevrt to "return" to Israel . . . that is quite something

    Report message9

  • Message 10

    , in reply to message 7.

    Posted by David (U14258942) on Monday, 20th June 2011

    If a muslim told me the grass was green and the sky was blue i would have to look outside to check as in my opinion Muslims have an inherent trait to scattergun untruths and shout down anyone who might be close to dispelling that untruths.

    Israel is a fine democratic country under attack from war mongering neighbours on all sides, you only have to see what hamas have done to any political opponents that dare stand against them and read their charter to see the fate of the middle east with them in charge .... sadly hamas are using the poor of palastine to further their own murderous agenda.

    Victimhood ... the 8th pillar of islam.

    Report message10

  • Message 11

    , in reply to message 10.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Monday, 20th June 2011

    If a muslim told me the grass was green and the sky was blue i would have to look outside to check as in my opinion Muslims have an inherent trait to scattergun untruths and shout down anyone who might be close to dispelling that untruths.

    Israel is a fine democratic country under attack from war mongering neighbours on all sides, you only have to see what hamas have done to any political opponents that dare stand against them and read their charter to see the fate of the middle east with them in charge .... sadly hamas are using the poor of palastine to further their own murderous agenda.

    Victimhood ... the 8th pillar of islam. 


    Interesting . . .
    so to you the whole issue is a purely religious one, to e judged on who is from what faith

    Are you an Israeli by any chance and did you have a hand in drawing up the ammendments to the Law of Return which barrs ethnic jews who have converted out of Judaism but welcomes with open arm converts from all coners of the globe? cause you sound like you are reading from the same twisted hymn sheet

    Report message11

  • Message 12

    , in reply to message 10.

    Posted by Essential Rabbit (U3613943) on Monday, 20th June 2011

    Israel is a fine democratic country under attack from war mongering neighbours on all sides 
    Victimhood ... the 8th pillar of islam. 

    We really do need an irony smiley.

    Report message12

  • Message 13

    , in reply to message 11.

    Posted by David (U14258942) on Monday, 20th June 2011

    Hi Ayub,
    Sorry to disappoint you but i am neither an Israeli nor a jew indeed i could never believe is some magic sky fairy of any faith as i see religon as the root of all evil with islam being the most evil.so to you the whole issue is a purely religious one

    "so to you the whole issue is a purely religious one"

    Indeed so, with islam involved in almost all the worlds conflict in its vain attempt to turn the whole world islamic.... it might work in the backward countries of the middle east and africa but in the educated civilised world people are far too smart to be taken in by its intollerant,barbaric teachings and Israel is the one becon of light in the middle east that has moved towards that civilised world something that Hamas seems intent on removing before people in its own countries see the light and move away from the murderous religon.































































































    Report message13

  • Message 14

    , in reply to message 10.

    Posted by bugsy60 (U14684939) on Monday, 20th June 2011

    To David

    Amnesia setting in ?

    You fail to mention

    British soldiers murdered by Zionists
    Deir Yassin
    Stern, Irgun Hagana gangs
    Menachim Begin the terrorist
    Moshe Dayan
    Cluster Bombs in Lebanon after the cease fire
    Murder of Syrian civilians
    Netanyahu the warmonger

    I could go on but you won't be listening.
    Victimhood- the Jewish pastime
    Bullying- the Israeli pastime

    Of all the nations/religions on the planet the Jews should be the last to put other people in camps !!

    No chance of peace until you learn to share the space. Which sadly because of terrorism on both sides will not happen.

    Report message14

  • Message 15

    , in reply to message 13.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Monday, 20th June 2011

    Kind of invalidated your claim that to you it is not about religion with your rant about the evils of Islam.

    By the way Hamas only came into being in the late 80s, and no matter what they do they will struglle in kiling more inocents than the IDF. Also you might ask yourself what inspired Hamases tactics, how did Israle come into being in the first place? I do believe their "freedom fighters" were classed as terrorists by the British, and they were commiting acts of terror way back when, and haven't really stoped.

    As for your comment that "in the educated civilised world people are far too smart to be taken in by ", I don't know how up yourself you are, but I doubt you are as inteligent as any of these westerners:

    Martin Lings (Shakespearean scholar and Oxford Graduate),

    Charles le Gai Eaton (British Diplomat, Journalist, and Cambridge Graduate),

    Robert D. Crane (former advisor to President Richard Nixon, former Deputy Director (for Planning) of the United States National Security Council, and a
    Harvard Graduate),

    Titus Burckhardt (Eminent Philosopher),

    René Guénon (Emininent Philosopher and Influential French Metaphysician),

    Frithjof Schuon (Eminent Philosopher)

    As I keep having to point out to people it is not based on a lack of inteligence that one embraces Islam, but it is from a lack of inteligence that oen dismisses Islam and tries to smear it with the acts of a few.

    Kind of like tryna use the KKK as the poster boys for Christianity, it's a false image and you know it.

    Report message15

  • Message 16

    , in reply to message 14.

    This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way.

  • Message 17

    , in reply to message 16.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Monday, 20th June 2011

    Bugsy
    Look .... as someone who has no need for some sky fairy or book written by a warmonger thousands of years ago i am but an outsider looking in, however i look around the world and in almost every conflict there is one common denominator and that is the wicked religon of islam.

    You are quite entitled to your views that it s all the fault of Israel but it is equaly my entitlement to view the problem being islamic, islam is an intollerant and bigoted religon which is waging war all over the planet in its futile attempt for world domination.

    Israel is a becon of light in the middle East and is doing a fine job in repelling the advancement of the most barbaric religon in the world. 

    I doubt you have even read the Quran, for you to be able to tell when something is Islam or not.

    So could you perhas share with us some of the barbaric teachings of Islam as found in the Quran?

    Report message17

  • Message 18

    , in reply to message 15.

    Posted by David (U14258942) on Monday, 20th June 2011

    Aybu
    you only need to read the hamas charter to see what sort of murderous future is in store for the middle east.

    The difference with the IDF killing terrorists who pose a danger to a civilised country but hamas are killing its own people to keep the power it gained through intimidation and fear .. Think about it Aybu ..... Muslims killing Muslims for its own selfish means and to think that is something you support.

    Islam is spread either at the point of a sword (or the modern day gun) or via repression of its people, the lack of access to good quality education being the most repressive .... however as i have said before the introduction of the internet is the biggest danger to islam as it will allow its followers access to the civilised world and it wont take too long before they see that having been lied to for years they want the freedoms that people in the west take for granted.
    This process has already started as we saw in Egypt, Bahrain and now in Lybia,Syria etc..... the sooner islam is marginalised the better in my view

    Report message18

  • Message 19

    , in reply to message 18.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Monday, 20th June 2011



    Islam is spread either at the point of a sword (or the modern day gun) or via repression of its people 


    I suggest you look up the history of how Islam came to be in Indonesia and China . . . might help you to see how false your statement is


    As for Hamas, I condem every innocent they have ever caused to die (including the poor helpless desperate downtroden people who they persuade to blow themselevs up) . . . but I also condem every innocent killed by the IDF, and the same goes for anywhere else in the world, just because what one side is doing is bad, it doesn't blind me from seeing the evil commited by the other side also.

    And when you really look at it, Israel have a lot more innocent deaths to answer for than any other actors in that region.

    Report message19

  • Message 20

    , in reply to message 18.

    Posted by Essential Rabbit (U3613943) on Monday, 20th June 2011

    The difference with the IDF killing terrorists who pose a danger to a civilised country 

    Yeah right!
    Sophisticated fireams against sticks and stones.


    www.bbc.co.uk/news/1...

    www.bbc.co.uk/news/w...

    Report message20

  • Message 21

    , in reply to message 19.

    Posted by Brandon and his Christmas log (U11763530) on Monday, 20th June 2011



    Islam is spread either at the point of a sword (or the modern day gun) or via repression of its people 


    I suggest you look up the history of how Islam came to be in Indonesia and China . . . might help you to see how false your statement is


    As for Hamas, I condem every innocent they have ever caused to die (including the poor helpless desperate downtroden people who they persuade to blow themselevs up) . . . but I also condem every innocent killed by the IDF, and the same goes for anywhere else in the world, just because what one side is doing is bad, it doesn't blind me from seeing the evil commited by the other side also.

    And when you really look at it, Israel have a lot more innocent deaths to answer for than any other actors in that region. 
    Whilst all deaths are regrettable it is difficult to see what else the Palestinians can do to get the Israelis to stop building illegal settlements and oppressing the Palestinians. The Israeli people take notice when there are retaliatory attacks but nothing else seems to deflect their governments from their expansion policy which makes a viable Palestinian state impossible. The Palestinians have been willing to accept the pre-67 line for decades. Arafat declared independence on these borders and the state was recognised by over a hundred countries. It is not a good enough excuse for the Israelis to point to something written and ignored over twenty years ago (Hamas charter). Hamas are reconciled to the 67 borders as well and are in the process of forming a unity government with Fatah as a precursor to holding democratic elections next year. It must be very difficult for them given the conditions imposed upon them by the Israeli oppression and occupation.

    Report message21

  • Message 22

    , in reply to message 21.

    Posted by Abubakar55 (U14258389) on Monday, 20th June 2011

    It is time to free Palestine.

    The Hamas Charter was written at a certain time in history, now Hamas are clearly ready to accept an Israeli State, I am sure that honest negotiations might well see the removal of that clause from the Charter. It is an excuse for not pursuing peace, and we see by Israel's response to the change in regime in Egypt and the idea of returning to 1967 borders that the have no interest in peace.

    Peace for Israel would have severe consequences, internal divisions long since buried would raise their head and the war economy with its high level of funding from USA would be very vulnerable to collapse.

    The brutality used against the Palestinians is morally indefensible, the number of Palestinian women and children killed is 10 times that of Israeli civilians, all should be condemned but it is clear that one side is the brutal oppressor and the other is struggling to survive.

    Report message22

  • Message 23

    , in reply to message 10.

    Posted by johnny (U14903385) on Monday, 20th June 2011

    I think the point about Israel being a true democracy is completely false. How can you have a functioning democracy where key politicians regard Israel as a Jewish state? what about the rights of other groups?

    Why is it that Palestinians rank worst in all measures of social progress relative to the Israeli Jews?

    Equality of all citizens is an important condition for the functioning of a democracy. In Israel we do not have this.

    And when commentators use democracy to shield Israel from criticism, the hypocrisy is just too much. The Western nation deliberately suppressed the sprinklings of democracy when they appeared in the Arab world, favouring instead a fundamentalist brand of Islam. The "democracy paradox", led to the deliberate suppression of democracy in this region by the Western nations.

    I think a speaker in the debate made a great point. Any sane human being can see that the Jews have suffered greatly throughout history , culminating in the holocaust. But what fault was it of the Palestinians? What deed did they do that was so bad that they had to have their land and homes confiscated? The response from one of the pro-israeli speakers was that some imam from Palestine wanted to find out how to deal with the Jews, and was seeking advice on how to do this from the Nazi's. But surely if the Israeli state is a kind of retribution against historical injustices , then the Germans or the Russians should have been punished.

    Report message23

  • Message 24

    , in reply to message 23.

    Posted by Brandon and his Christmas log (U11763530) on Monday, 20th June 2011

    Palestinians fought in the Arab Legion against Hitler. It's all a hopeless excuse. Of course the Palestinians tried to resist the Zionist takeover of their country. Who wouldn't ? I know I would fight tooth and nail against any movement who tried to establish their own ethnoreligious state here to replace the United Kingdom. Isn't that what Al Qaeda are trying to do, in their own pathetic and ineffectual way ?



    Report message24

  • Message 25

    , in reply to message 22.

    Posted by friendlykamustaka (U12870744) on Tuesday, 21st June 2011

    "....now Hamas are clearly ready to accept an Israeli State,..."

    smiley - laugh smiley - laugh smiley - laugh

    www.youtube.com/watc...

    Clearly your brothers didn't get your memo, Abu.......

    smiley - doh smiley - doh

    Report message25

  • Message 26

    , in reply to message 25.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Tuesday, 21st June 2011

    "....now Hamas are clearly ready to accept an Israeli State,..."

    smiley - laugh smiley - laugh smiley - laugh

    www.youtube.com/watc...

    Clearly your brothers didn't get your memo, Abu.......

    smiley - doh smiley - doh 


    he says "....now Hamas are clearly ready to accept an Israeli State,..."

    and you give him a memri tv propaganda youtube video from 2009smiley - doh

    smiley - erm you might want to check your calendar, "now" is 2011

    as for memri tv:

    en.wikipedia.org/wik...

    considering the following:


    MEMRI was co-founded in 1998 by Yigal Carmon, a former colonel in the Israeli military intelligence, 

    Until 2001, its Mission Statement stated that the institute also emphasizes "the continuing relevance of Zionism to the Jewish people and to the state of Israel" 

    I'll take what they show and tell me with a pinch of salt

    Report message26

  • Message 27

    , in reply to message 26.

    Posted by friendlykamustaka (U12870744) on Tuesday, 21st June 2011

    "...you might want to check your calendar, "now" is 2011..."

    Indeed. So here's one from just a month ago:

    www.youtube.com/watc...

    "Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews" (Quran 5:82), "Nay, We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?" (Quran 21:44) Nothing to do with Islam,then...

    smiley - doh smiley - doh smiley - doh

    And how is it that Yunis Al-Astal, who as a Muslim cleric has dedicated his life to understanding and obeying the dictates of Islam, misunderstands this peaceful, tolerant religion so spectacularly?



    Report message27

  • Message 28

    , in reply to message 10.

    Posted by Tina (U14867273) on Tuesday, 21st June 2011

    David

    Palestine belongs to the ancestors of Hamas (not that I am a fan of Hamas). Their land has been stolen and their people murdered, they are in an open air prison. How should they behave?

    The majority of people in Israel are not arabs; what are they doing risking the Hamas homemade bombs.

    How about the Zionists go back to where they came from (since 1947) and leave Palestine to the ARAB Jews, Christians and Muslims!!.



    Report message28

  • Message 29

    , in reply to message 17.

    Posted by Tina (U14867273) on Tuesday, 21st June 2011

    Ayub

    I think Islam is too intelligent for David or maybe sadly he falls into this category.

    2:6. Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad PBUH) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.

    2:7. Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allah's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment.

    Tina

    Report message29

  • Message 30

    , in reply to message 27.

    Posted by Abubakar55 (U14258389) on Tuesday, 21st June 2011

    "...you might want to check your calendar, "now" is 2011..."

    Indeed. So here's one from just a month ago:

    www.youtube.com/watc...

    "Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews" (Quran 5:82), "Nay, We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?" (Quran 21:44) Nothing to do with Islam,then...

    smiley - doh smiley - doh smiley - doh

    And how is it that Yunis Al-Astal, who as a Muslim cleric has dedicated his life to understanding and obeying the dictates of Islam, misunderstands this peaceful, tolerant religion so spectacularly?



     
    Oh dear unfriendly,

    More of your out of context, quoting of half verses with no relevance to the subject!

    What do you think the you tube (well edited, the 2min 19 second clip starts at 1254 and ends at 1309, which means over 12 mins were cut) clip shows?

    Are you aware of how inaccurate the translation is?

    MEMRI is established to promote zionism to the Jewish people, they have no interest in showing anything close to balanced, the Hamas MP rejects the idea of compensation instead of the right to return for Palestinian refugees and resettlement of Palestinians, nothing else.

    Like it or like it not, Hamas are ready to do a deal which will establish a State of Israel behind 67 borders, the Israeli Government cannot accept this as it will destroy the false unity of the state to take it off a permanent war footing and open up huge divisions in Israeli Society.

    Report message30

  • Message 31

    , in reply to message 30.

    Posted by friendlykamustaka (U12870744) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    "More of your out of context, quoting of half verses with no relevance to the subject!"

    Oh,I'm more than happy to put these verses in context,as I notice you haven't.

    Let's see now, verse 5. All I have to do is check with this MUSLIM site to find out where it occurs in Muhammad's lifetime.

    www.bombaxo.com/chro...

    The first thing to notice is that it is a Medina verse,occurring after sura 2, when Muhammad had gained political power in Medina. As such,it is a verse that cannot be abrogated. Next I notice that it directly precedes the infamous violent surah 9,which spans the period when he took Mecca and started imposing his wonderful jizya tax.....

    As you can see from the table,verse 5 follows surah 48,which concerns the return from Hudaybiya.

    And what event occurred between Hudaybiya and the capture of Mecca? Khaybar.

    en.wikipedia.org/wik...

    Where Muhammad gained a "victory" by attacking and conquering the unarmed jewish occupants,as Ibn Ishaq wrote in the Sirat Rasoul Allah:

    "We met a few LABOURERS going forth early to their work, bearing SPADES and BASKETS, and when they beheld the apostle with his army they cried out and fled. The apostle said “Allah Akbar! Khaybar will be destroyed.”

    www.hraicjk.org/hadi...

    A slaughter still celebrated in the muslim world,when muslims chant "Allahu akbar" and "Khaybar, Khaybar, ya Yahud, jaish Muhammad sa yaoud" -- "Khaybar, Khaybar, O Jews, the army of Muhammad will return."

    www.youtube.com/watc...

    "Are you aware of how inaccurate the translation is?"

    smiley - laugh smiley - laugh smiley - laugh

    I'm surprised you need to ask this question, Abu,as ,according to your own Quran(16:36) we have had our own messenger. Let me remind you:

    (ALI):For We assuredly sent amongst EVERY PEOPLE a messenger, (with the Command), "Serve Allah, and eschew Evil": of the People were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth).
    (PICKTHAL): And verily We have raised in EVERY NATION a messenger, (proclaiming): Serve Allah and shun false gods. Then some of them (there were) whom Allah guided, and some of them (there were) upon whom error had just hold. Do but travel in the land and see the nature of the consequence for the deniers!
    (SHAKIR): And certainly We raised in EVERY NATION a messenger saying: Serve Allah and shun the Shaitan. So there were some of them whom Allah guided and there were others against whom error was due; therefore travel in the land, then see what was the end of the rejecters.

    So who is this person? Who was OUR messenger? Don't you know? And why haven't you provided a "correct" translation?





    Report message31

  • Message 32

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by bluebelljag (U14151662) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    Typical of Sam Westercott to mention Hitler in his opening comments. If you need to use this justification in your argument then you can't have a very strong argument. Hamas is a terrorist organisation, no one can argue with that. But that does not justify the ongoing genocide against the Palestinian people.

    Peter Hitchens is trotting out the same old tired right wing drivel. "There are some affluent areas in Gaza" Tell that to the kids in the camps or the farmers who's land has been snatched. 
    Yes it is time to free Palestine: Remove Hamas as peace and terrorists are not a good mix.

    Perhaps the rich Arab states could accomodate Hamas and their supporters and the others could mix with the Israel people and live in real peace not with the terrorists.

    Report message32

  • Message 33

    , in reply to message 31.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    All I have to do is check with this MUSLIM site to find out where it occurs in Muhammad's lifetime.

    www.bombaxo.com/chro...  


    smiley - yikes you call this a "MUSLIM" site? . . .

    http://www.bombaxo.com/

    the guy who set it up is named Kevin P. Edgecomb,

    he devotes most of the site to the Bible (you have to click on "Other Stuff" to
    find anything on the Quran),

    and if you click on the "About Me" section, he says:

    I'm a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church, and find many of my studies to be related to my faith, to a greater or lesser degree.  

    smiley - doh seriously, you are either dishonest (i.e. you knew it wasn't a muslim site but decided to say it was anyway) or you lack inteligence (i.e. you couldn't even think to check the hompage of the website you cite to see whether your claim was true)

    smiley - ermeither way though, it makes one realise that we can't take the things you say at face value, and that you obviously can't be trusted (either through your sheer incompetence or obvious disingenuousness)

    Report message33

  • Message 34

    , in reply to message 31.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    as for Khaybbar and the capture of Mecca:

    here's what the Wikipedia link you gave says about the capture of Mecca:

    The truce of Hudaybiyyah had been enforced for two years. The tribe of Banu Khuza'a had good relations with Muhammad, whereas their enemies, the Banu Bakr, had an alliance with the Meccans. A clan of the Bakr made a night raid against the Khuza'a, killing a few of them.The Meccans helped the Banu Bakr with weapons and, according to some sources, a few Meccans also took part in the fighting. After this event, Muhammad sent a message to Mecca with three conditions, asking them to accept one of them. These were that either the Meccans paid blood money for those slain among the Khuza'ah tribe; or, that they should disavow themselves of the Banu Bakr; or, that they should declare the truce of Hudaybiyyah null.

    The Meccans replied that they would accept only the last condition. However, soon they realized their mistake and sent Abu Sufyan to renew the Hudaybiyyah treaty, but now his request was declined by Muhammad. 


    As for Khaybar:

    en.wikipedia.org/wik...

    On the reasons for the attack, Scottish historian William Montgomery Watt notes the presence in Khaybar of the Banu Nadir, who were inciting hostilities along with neighboring Arab tribes against Muhammad. 

    the hostilities:

    en.wikipedia.org/wik...


    It's important to note that even those who would like to read more into it can't discredit this fact of Khaybar's harbouring hostile forces beig the main reason for the attack, because as the first link says:

    Contemporary scholar Laura Veccia Vaglieri, while giving full credence to Watt's view  points out other reasons such as Muhammad's raising his prestige among his followers, as well as his capturing booty to sustain subsequent conquests. 

    to me these other reasons are pure conjecture using hind-sight which just wasn't available to the prophet (peace be upon him) (i.e. how on earth could anyone at the time have predicted "the subsequent conquests" that she speaks of, considering they were done on the defensive and wern't pre-planed? and so it's difficult to claim they could have been a consideration in the act) but nonetheless even she can't deny the main impetous for action against khaybar being their housing and protecting of hostile forces.

    ____________________________________________________________

    And for the other website you cite,

    while it claims to have the aim of wanting to combat, anywhere in the world, the excesses of political Islam such as jihad and terrorism and the less humane aspects of Sharia, Islamic law, such as whipping, amputation of limbs and stoning to death. 

    this mission objective is obviosuly grossly exceeded by what it says in the disclaimer at the bottom of the homepage:

    Some articles may not refer directly to Islamic human rights abuses, fundamentalism and terrorism, instead aiming to impede Islamic da'wah (conversion to Islam).  

    Making one question the sincerity of what they say they wish to achieve, since their given reason that:

    We do this because often converts to Islam are fanatics – witness David Hicks of South Australia who went to fight for the Taleban/al-Qaeda. 

    is not actually statisticaly true - witness the fact that 865,558 people convert to Islam every year:

    en.wikipedia.org/wik...

    but the number of them that become "fanatics" "terrorits" or "extremists" has not been more than a few dozen, at most.
    ____________________________________________________________

    Finaly, considering that the part which you have chosen to show is a Sira, we might as well make people aware of the standing of Sira's in Islamic literature:

    en.wikipedia.org/wik...

    and also of the disputable nature of Ibn Shaq's sira (which happens to be the only one which that website has chosen to share with us, itself an interesting choice on their part):

    en.wikipedia.org/wik...

    Report message34

  • Message 35

    , in reply to message 34.

    Posted by friendlykamustaka (U12870744) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    "......but the number of them that become "fanatics" "terrorits" or "extremists" has not been more than a few dozen, at most."

    smiley - laugh smiley - laugh smiley - laugh

    You mean in the last month....

    Take a look at this list :

    wikiislam.net/wiki/C...

    The two most recent "incidents" in the US both involve converts:

    "The motives are clear that they had a very extreme ideology ......"

    mynorthwest.com/?nid...

    "When police searched Papineau's truck, they found a large amount of ammunition and additional ammunition magazines.They also said they found a Koran and several books on converting to Islam...."

    www.kirotv.com/news/...

    Report message35

  • Message 36

    , in reply to message 35.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    there's about a hundred odd names on there, spaning from a time period from the 70s to 2011 and for offences as wide ranging as full blown terrorism to attempted arsen.

    As i pointed out, however, there are 865,558 conversions to Islam every year, and consider the the link i gave you says that "in the period 1990-2000, approximately 12.5 million more people converted to Islam than to Christianity” (Guinness World Records 2003, pg 102)." which means that at *least* there can be said to have been 12.5 million people who converted to Islam during 1990-2000 alone.


    do you want me to do the maths?

    going on the 865,558 a year figure, over the time span of 40 years, it equates to you pointing out 100 od bad apples out of about 346 million converts

    going on the 12.5million between 1990-200 figure, it equates to you pointing to 100 odd bad apples out of 50 million

    even if i didn't extrapolate the figures from 1990-200, it alone shows the stupidity of your smear campaign, 100 odd bad aples spaning 40 years in light of the fact that in a single decade there were 12.5 MILLION converts

    whatever way you look at it, for you to point to it gleefully as if you have scored some sort of point, is beyond moronic smiley - doh

    seriously, shameful logic

    Report message36

  • Message 37

    , in reply to message 35.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    "......but the number of them that become "fanatics" "terrorits" or "extremists" has not been more than a few dozen, at most."

    smiley - laugh smiley - laugh smiley - laugh

    You mean in the last month....

    Take a look at this list :

    wikiislam.net/wiki/C...

     


    there's about a hundred odd names on there, spaning from a time period from the 70s to 2011 and for offences as wide ranging as full blown terrorism to attempted arsen.

    As i pointed out, however, there are 865,558 conversions to Islam every year, and consider the the link i gave you says that "in the period 1990-2000, approximately 12.5 million more people converted to Islam than to Christianity” (Guinness World Records 2003, pg 102)." which means that at *least* there can be said to have been 12.5 million people who converted to Islam during 1990-2000 alone.


    do you want me to do the maths?

    going on the 865,558 a year figure, over the time span of 40 years, it equates to you pointing out 100 od bad apples out of about 346 million converts

    going on the 12.5million between 1990-200 figure, it equates to you pointing to 100 odd bad apples out of 50 million

    even if i didn't extrapolate the figures from 1990-200, it alone shows the stupidity of your smear campaign, 100 odd bad aples spaning 40 years in light of the fact that in a single decade there were 12.5 MILLION converts

    whatever way you look at it, for you to point to it gleefully as if you have scored some sort of point, is beyond moronic smiley - doh

    seriously, shameful logic

    Report message37

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